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  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,896
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724
    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,902
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.
    Well we disagree on the last point.

    One thing is for sure is that by controlling Congress, Trump (like Obama) has an opportunity this year that he cannot count on for the rest of his term in office. It's might be now, or never.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    rcs1000 said:

    I think this opens things up quite massively for Macron.

    All we need now is for Bayrou to endorse him..
    I dont know if the primaries aremuch of a barometer of France's mood, but it is noticeable that on both left and right the"outsider" candidate is doing better and the establishmanet candidates are slipping off the scene.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude

    It reminds me of the alternative surgeon who perfected the haemorrhoids transplant.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude

    It reminds me of the alternative surgeon who perfected the haemorrhoids transplant.
    I am already waiting with bated breath for some trader to tell me that he has some "alternative facts".
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,955
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.

    Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,769
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan.
    The paradox is that it's possible for an outright charlatan to be more sincere about what he wants to achieve than many other politicians.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,221

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.

    Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.

    Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,350
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.

    Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.

    Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?

    but without ever having to deliver
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    dr_spyn said:
    I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.

    IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.

    Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.

    Interesting. But one question for you: hasn't Trump in effect been pitching to the same pool throughout the primaries and the campaign?

    He has. And now it's time to deliver. And he can't move on. He has to keep going back to the same client base.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,291
    SeanT said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
    I was so panic stricken reading the news on this at the breakfast table that I burnt the toast.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
    Fake news according to a cambridge professor!
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,236
    edited January 2017

    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude

    Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
    This is a very shoddy piece in The Guardian. No assessment of risk, almost taking the FSA 'guidance' or press release at face value.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/23/toast-thats-a-bit-too-brown-may-cause-cancer-say-authorities

    A case of garbage in, garbage out, and an attempt to create poorer policy making.

  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    SeanT said:



    Yes. Good analysis.

    And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.

    Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?

    He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.

    Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.

    Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.

    No, because democracy doesn't work that way.

    After the Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, the last thing British and American politicians felt they could get past the court of public opinion was a military intervention in the Middle East.

    Yes, defend the Falklands, Cornwall or Watford Gap Services but in Syria where it was far from clear at the outset who were the "good guys" and the "bad guys", why get involved ? We chose not to intervene on the ground in Libya for similar reasons.

    Both Obama and Cameron had come into office on the back of an anti-intervention sentiment which had gnawed away at both Bush and Blair/Brown and had sapped their support.

    Part of that erosion was the constant drip drip coverage of soldiers coming home in body bags. Whether it be the Americans in Vietnam or the Russians in Afghanistan and no matter how censored or controlled the coverage, the people get to know and resent the loss of life for no obvious benefit.

    Had Iraq and Afghanistan never happened, I suspect we would have put troops on the ground in Syria and Libya and I don't know where that would have led.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289

    SeanT said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
    Fake news according to a cambridge professor!
    Fake official news...from FSA?
  • Options

    dr_spyn said:
    I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.

    IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....
    I'm sure seanT will give it a good go!
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,953

    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude

    Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).
    Alan Clark at the Matrix trial?
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.
    One painful point for liberals who defended Obama and his drone policy: President Donald Trump is now in charge of those same American drones, Donald Trump is now able to murder and vapourise whoever he likes, around the world, at will.
    Not exactly a joyous moment for liberals who deplored Obama's drone policy either.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,291

    SeanT said:

    dr_spyn said:
    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.
    Fake news according to a cambridge professor!
    No, not quite what he said. Although you made me laugh.

    He says that "for cancer, toxicology committees demand a rather arbitrary margin of exposure of 10,000 before considering the chemical essentially acceptable.".

    If I have understood him right, the tests on mice about the chemical in burnt toast showed that one adult could consume 160x what was at the margin of "unlikely" to cause in mice and be ok.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    dr_spyn said:
    I read in detail the government guidance on alcohol where they came up with the advice on 14 units per week.

    IIRC to increase your chances of early death by a third you would have to drink two bottles of wine a day. Which struck me as an awful lot of alcohol for pretty reasonable odds of not dying early.....
    but then youd miss out on 5 more years of saying wibble and sitting in your own piss.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,883
    SeanT said:

    >

    I think is when British Official Health Advice finally Jumped the Shark.

    Toast gives you cancer. If you wanna make it past 40, watch out for those extra crunchy roast potatoes. FFS.

    Do people not have a right to know about potential health risks ? If you give people information, they have a choice as to what to do with it. People continue to smoke even though the negative health effects are well known and well documented.

    Ultimately it's longevity vs quality of life. Nobody wants to die but if in order to avoid dying you stop living what's the point ?

  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,289
    edited January 2017
    from comments in that guardian article on Toast.

    "Scientist have said it's really important not to burn any of the onion family
    Especially the small delicate types
    They have started a campaign called 'Black Chives Matter'."

    Round of applause for Elephantwoman.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503
    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.
    They will never admit it, but his victory is as much the fault of the Democrats as it is his success.

    The way in which the Democrats conducted the election campaign showed that most of their talk about healing division, unity and togetherness was just that - Rhetoric.

    There are certain sorts of people they are alluding to when they talk about it, but not the ones they find revolting.
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    How long before 'alternative facts' becomes the standard name for what we used to call lies?
    It's about time we had an alternative to terminological inexactitude
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminological_inexactitude

    Being a ponce, I always had a soft spot for 'economical with the actualité' (delivered in an Alan Clark drawl of course).
    Alan Clark at the Matrix trial?
    Naturellement!
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,291
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    He'll get things done. Sadly they will be the wrong things and he will store up resentment.
    Who knows. He's a complete maverick. And Obama, while personally popular, highly articulate and a very clever man, was a political mediocrity, in office.

    Obama was a great head of state. But, you're right, he could not do the politics. Trump will not be a great head of state because he is so divisive and he has even less political experience than Obama. So, he will stand or fall on the success of his policies. Face to face, lying salesmen can be hugely effective: they charm, close and move on. What they don't do is build a client-base of repeat customers. We always fire a sales person who lies. In our field, sustainable business depends on trust, credibility and delivery. In real estate it's different as every deal is pretty much standalone. When Trump moves away from that he very often fails. You can't move to a new prospect when you're President. You're pitching to the same pool every time. That's Trump's challenge.

    Yes. Good analysis.

    And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.

    Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?

    He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.

    Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.

    Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.
    People always forget his mandate. He ran in 2007/8 with a major plank being that Iraq was a disaster and US should have kept out (and Hillary voted for it etc). He was elected with a mandate to stop the foreign wars and keep out of doing, in his words, "stupid stuff" in ME.

    I am sure this would have weighed on him.
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,503
    stodge said:

    SeanT said:



    Yes. Good analysis.

    And yet, I can't help thinking Trump would have handled, say, Syria, better than Obama.

    Trump would have analysed it brutally, as an amoral businessman - what's good for me, what's good for America? How do we get rid of these jihadis, the real threat to Americans?

    He might have then come up with the best solution of all (back in the day) support Assad, ally with Putin, crush the rebellion.

    Cruel and ruthless, but it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Obama, with his bleeding liberal heart, just vacillated and did nothing, allowing Russia to intervene alone, and all those people died, and Assad has won anyway. And America is entirely sidelined, and humiliated, and now a peripheral actor in much of the Mid East.

    Obama was rubbish in many ways. He talked the talk, but that was it.

    No, because democracy doesn't work that way.

    After the Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, the last thing British and American politicians felt they could get past the court of public opinion was a military intervention in the Middle East.

    Yes, defend the Falklands, Cornwall or Watford Gap Services but in Syria where it was far from clear at the outset who were the "good guys" and the "bad guys", why get involved ? We chose not to intervene on the ground in Libya for similar reasons.

    Both Obama and Cameron had come into office on the back of an anti-intervention sentiment which had gnawed away at both Bush and Blair/Brown and had sapped their support.

    Part of that erosion was the constant drip drip coverage of soldiers coming home in body bags. Whether it be the Americans in Vietnam or the Russians in Afghanistan and no matter how censored or controlled the coverage, the people get to know and resent the loss of life for no obvious benefit.

    Had Iraq and Afghanistan never happened, I suspect we would have put troops on the ground in Syria and Libya and I don't know where that would have led.
    We will never know but had Iraq been a "success" - in other words, had it all calmed down in 2003, with minimal casualties, and the country moved towards something more resembling Jordan or Kuwait, albeit an elected republic rather than a monarchy - then I think the controversy would have been largely limited to those ideologically opposed to it.

    But, as you say, we (Bush and Blair) would have probably then moved onto Syria and Libya. And possibly Iran.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,972

    . And he can't move on. He has to keep going back to the same client base.

    He'll be judged on his economic record, the press will focus on the social stuff that was always going to happen under any Republican presidency though (Did they listen to Rubio on the stump ?!) - so missing the actual stuff that'll decide whether or not he gets re-elected.

    Ordinary Americans couldn't give a stuff what Madonna thinks.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,769

    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    I reckon 60% plus of Americans think he's a charlatan. Interestingly, that includes a fair number who voted for him, either because he was on their team or because they think things need shaking up and they trusted him to do that.
    They will never admit it, but his victory is as much the fault of the Democrats as it is his success.

    The way in which the Democrats conducted the election campaign showed that most of their talk about healing division, unity and togetherness was just that - Rhetoric.

    There are certain sorts of people they are alluding to when they talk about it, but not the ones they find revolting.
    I don't think that explains why Trump sailed past a dozen other Republican candidates, all of whom, with the exception of Ted Cruz were better qualified to be president than Trump.Clinton ran an OK campaign, but she was from the old order that was about to be swept away.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,997
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    (though you do have to wonder about an article which states that one million Americans already work in the UK, when the actual figure is only about 20% of that).

    1 million is now the American standard unit of crowd size...

    https://twitter.com/alxwinter/status/823026509912952832
    That's hilarious.

    I confess I find Trump fascinating. He's like an alpha male cubed, to the power of King Dong, fuelled by testosterone made from silverback gorillas on Jupiter. More importantly, I think he actually and sincerely believes everything he says, even when it is a clear lie.

    I had a very charming, roguish friend who had this skill: complete self belief, and total trust in the truth of his lies, and it made him an amazing salesman. I watched him swindle people and leave them smiling. I watched him persuade barmen he'd just met, to cash cheques with no guarantee card.

    The paradox is that this might make Trump a very effective president. Or a disaster.

    The most gifted deceivers are those who first deceive themselves.
    One painful point for liberals who defended Obama and his drone policy: President Donald Trump is now in charge of those same American drones, Donald Trump is now able to murder and vapourise whoever he likes, around the world, at will.
    I much prefer the use of drones to bombing towns and cities.

    As a deterrent, I'd like to see personal drones with enemy leaders' names on them. Much better than nuclear deterrents that depend on the threat of annihilating cities.

    So I'm a liberal who defends Obama's drone policy. I recognise that it means Trump is now able to vapourise whoever he likes but he can do that anyway in much bigger numbers with his nuclear biscuit.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    dr_spyn said:

    from comments in that guardian article on Toast.

    "Scientist have said it's really important not to burn any of the onion family
    Especially the small delicate types
    They have started a campaign called 'Black Chives Matter'."

    Round of applause for Elephantwoman.

    :lol:
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