Just supposing it was true for a moment that Russia had interfered in the US elections by hacking one of the political parties and releasing e-mails and other documents that caused them embarrassment. If that were the case would Obama's response not be the most pathetic response in modern times? Expel 35 diplomats. I mean, really, such an act would be amount to a declaration of war and his response is to expel 35 diplomats and shut down 2 "intelligence centres" (excuse me??)?

Putin is right to find this response so derisory as to not to require a response. Obama has finished as he has ruled, fine words and no action worth a damn. Within months of Trump Obamacare will have been reformed (not necessarily for the better of course) and it will be like the last 8 years never even happened. I cannot think of a President in recent times who has achieved so little. It's sad. He's a clever and articulate man but my lord, has he underperformed in office.

Speedy.

Ironically, the UK leaving the EU makes Germany even stronger, I read some statistics somewhere and it identified the German economy accounting for 17% of the EU's GDP at the moment. Once the UK leaves the EU, the German economy will account for 25% of the EU economy. However demographics are predicted to clip the German population down whilst the UK experience significant growth in population but this will not be until most people who comment on PB are long dead.

So, Brexit again proves to be counter to UK interests in that it makes Germany more dominate over our nearest continent.

foxinsoxuk said:

Speedy said:

In anticipation of Trump's alliance with Russia, in a trip down history Thatcher was planning an alliance with the Soviets against Germany:
https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/814850338742304768

Thatcher was right, Germany is dominating Europe now and we desperately need allies against them.

If Germany was a threat*, then perhaps vacating the field to them in June was not wise.

*Germany is not. This is not 1939 or 1914, Germany is a free-market democracy with the rule of law and a dynamic capitalist economy. We should copy them rather than be afraid of them.

We didn't vacate the field in June, as far as the EU leadership is concerned we were never committed to that field and vacated it when we didn't join the Euro. Why you still don't understand that is beyond me, even if we remained a non-Euro member could never lead the union.

DavidL,

That is just delusional on your part. It is like saying that Scotland, NI and Wales will try and control the UK. It just is not going to work and in the EU it is Germany and France who will control things with other allies such as Austria, Benelux and Denmark. The UK is on the path to diminished power in Europe and Germany is once again in the ascendant. This is what Brexit fundamentally means and it is something we have to get used to along with higher prices in the shops. I for one did my weekly shop today and noticed that some significant price increases had occurred.

London 2016

Like Sadiq says, terrorism is part and parcel of living in a big city

https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/814927794648051716

The_Taxman said:

DavidL,

That is just delusional on your part. It is like saying that Scotland, NI and Wales will try and control the UK. It just is not going to work and in the EU it is Germany and France who will control things with other allies such as Austria, Benelux and Denmark. The UK is on the path to diminished power in Europe and Germany is once again in the ascendant. This is what Brexit fundamentally means and it is something we have to get used to along with higher prices in the shops. I for one did my weekly shop today and noticed that some significant price increases had occurred.

What products were the increases for? Genuinely interested,

DavidL said:

The_Taxman said:

Speedy.

Ironically, the UK leaving the EU makes Germany even stronger, I read some statistics somewhere and it identified the German economy accounting for 17% of the EU's GDP at the moment. Once the UK leaves the EU, the German economy will account for 25% of the EU economy. However demographics are predicted to clip the German population down whilst the UK experience significant growth in population but this will not be until most people who comment on PB are long dead.

So, Brexit again proves to be counter to UK interests in that it makes Germany more dominate over our nearest continent.

"More dominate"? Really?

What will hopefully happen is that the rest of the EU (75%) will have to recognise that there are alternatives to German domination either inside the Euro or out of it and start to act as a bloc to offset Germany's control of the ECB with more expansive policies that so many of them require. The UK's departure will shake up the EU in interesting ways, hopefully for the better for them and for us.

I did an article in (oh god thinks for a minute) 2013(?) about the most significant trading partners of each of the then-EU28. Germany has land or water borders with approx thirteen countries, and is the most significant trading partner of (from memory) eleven of them. It has achieved local hegemony and it is difficult to see UK withdrawal from the European theatre as decreasing German domination.

viewcode said:

DavidL said:

The_Taxman said:

Speedy.

Ironically, the UK leaving the EU makes Germany even stronger, I read some statistics somewhere and it identified the German economy accounting for 17% of the EU's GDP at the moment. Once the UK leaves the EU, the German economy will account for 25% of the EU economy. However demographics are predicted to clip the German population down whilst the UK experience significant growth in population but this will not be until most people who comment on PB are long dead.

So, Brexit again proves to be counter to UK interests in that it makes Germany more dominate over our nearest continent.

"More dominate"? Really?

What will hopefully happen is that the rest of the EU (75%) will have to recognise that there are alternatives to German domination either inside the Euro or out of it and start to act as a bloc to offset Germany's control of the ECB with more expansive policies that so many of them require. The UK's departure will shake up the EU in interesting ways, hopefully for the better for them and for us.

I did an article in (oh god thinks for a minute) 2013(?) about the most significant trading partners of each of the then-EU28. Germany has land or water borders with approx thirteen countries, and is the most significant trading partner of (from memory) eleven of them. It has achieved local hegemony and it is difficult to see UK withdrawal from the European theatre as decreasing German domination.

Nature abhors a vacuum. Whilst the UK was a part of the game the others could delude themselves that there was a balance of interests. Now they have to face reality. We have seen signs of a Latin bloc developing already to offset the Germanic bloc. The Germanic bloc has generally been supported by the UK rather than opposed. We have persuaded ourselves it was in our interests and more "market orientated". Things will change. Let's watch how. From a safe distance.

The_Taxman said:

However demographics are predicted to clip the German population down whilst the UK experience significant growth in population

Those projections were computed before Merkel's admittance of mass migrants and before the UK Brexit vote. I think it's safe to say we can pop them in the bin now.

Mike Smithson to receive an OGH

AlsoIndigo said:

Blue_rog said:

RobD said:

Blue_rog said:

If a link between trump and the Russians hacking the Democratic election campaign can be proved, would that be treason and grounds for impeachment ?

Presidents are impeached by Congress, so that looks unlikely in the near term.

Really? Are you suggesting that as the Republicans have a majority in Congress that they would traduce the American people and refuse to impeach if there are clear grounds?

There wont be clear grounds.

The same was said of Nixon and I suspect he was considerably more cunning than Trump.

DecrepitJohnL said:

PlatoSaid said:

I hold media/Obama/Hillary's pandering to BLM responsible for the latter

http://nypost.com/2016/12/30/number-of-cops-killed-in-line-of-duty-this-year-spikes-drastically/

"Ambushes in Dallas and Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and other shootings around the country led to a sharp increase in the number of police killed in the line of duty this year.

From Jan. 1 through Wednesday, 135 officers lost their lives. Some died in traffic accidents, but nearly half were shot to death. That’s a 56 percent increase in shooting deaths over the previous year.

Of the 64 who were fatally shot, 21 were killed in ambush attacks often fueled by anger over police use of force involving minorities...

Taking the figures from the Officer Down Memorial Page
https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2016
yes, 62 is a large increase from 39 last year but not from 59 in 2010 or 68 in 2011, so maybe this is just natural variation. If not, then Obama must have done a fine job getting the numbers down in the intervening years.

Statistics versus Plato's moral certainty...

Tough call.

RobD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

It's Sir Andrew Murray, Sir Mo Farrah, and Dame Jessica Ennis-Hill

JohnO's Dukedom lost in the post?

Yup, and my GCMG.

I really want a GCMG, I begged Dave when he was compiling his resignations honours.

Nigelb said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

PlatoSaid said:

I hold media/Obama/Hillary's pandering to BLM responsible for the latter

http://nypost.com/2016/12/30/number-of-cops-killed-in-line-of-duty-this-year-spikes-drastically/

"Ambushes in Dallas and Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and other shootings around the country led to a sharp increase in the number of police killed in the line of duty this year.

From Jan. 1 through Wednesday, 135 officers lost their lives. Some died in traffic accidents, but nearly half were shot to death. That’s a 56 percent increase in shooting deaths over the previous year.

Of the 64 who were fatally shot, 21 were killed in ambush attacks often fueled by anger over police use of force involving minorities...

Taking the figures from the Officer Down Memorial Page
https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2016
yes, 62 is a large increase from 39 last year but not from 59 in 2010 or 68 in 2011, so maybe this is just natural variation. If not, then Obama must have done a fine job getting the numbers down in the intervening years.

Statistics versus Plato's moral certainty...

Tough call.

Never mind the truth when there are #Platofacts

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

viewcode said:

DavidL said:

The_Taxman said:

Speedy.

Ironically, the UK leaving the EU makes Germany even stronger, I read some statistics somewhere and it identified the German economy accounting for 17% of the EU's GDP at the moment. Once the UK leaves the EU, the German economy will account for 25% of the EU economy. However demographics are predicted to clip the German population down whilst the UK experience significant growth in population but this will not be until most people who comment on PB are long dead.

So, Brexit again proves to be counter to UK interests in that it makes Germany more dominate over our nearest continent.

"More dominate"? Really?

What will hopefully happen is that the rest of the EU (75%) will have to recognise that there are alternatives to German domination either inside the Euro or out of it and start to act as a bloc to offset Germany's control of the ECB with more expansive policies that so many of them require. The UK's departure will shake up the EU in interesting ways, hopefully for the better for them and for us.

I did an article in (oh god thinks for a minute) 2013(?) about the most significant trading partners of each of the then-EU28. Germany has land or water borders with approx thirteen countries, and is the most significant trading partner of (from memory) eleven of them. It has achieved local hegemony and it is difficult to see UK withdrawal from the European theatre as decreasing German domination.

Nature abhors a vacuum. Whilst the UK was a part of the game the others could delude themselves that there was a balance of interests. Now they have to face reality. We have seen signs of a Latin bloc developing already to offset the Germanic bloc. The Germanic bloc has generally been supported by the UK rather than opposed. We have persuaded ourselves it was in our interests and more "market orientated". Things will change. Let's watch how. From a safe distance.

Quite dramatic, David. It's a trading bloc with competing self-interests. In several areas there have been moves towards further union. You are describing it as though the EU is a game of Risk.

We are or soon will be outside it. All well and good. No need to make such a dramatic song and dance about it; makes you sound like one of those who wishes failure upon it.

Quite the contrary, Mr Topping, I wish them well. We need a growing EU as a successful trading partner. Most of the Eurozone has been in recession for a lot of the last 10 years. They have been so because of German orientated monetary policies. This really cannot continue.

TheScreamingEagles said:

It's Sir Andrew Murray, Sir Mo Farrah, and Dame Jessica Ennis-Hill

Not Andy Murray, please -- no-one should be knighted while they are still playing.

viewcode said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

The_Taxman said:

DavidL,

That is just delusional on your part. It is like saying that Scotland, NI and Wales will try and control the UK. It just is not going to work and in the EU it is Germany and France who will control things with other allies such as Austria, Benelux and Denmark. The UK is on the path to diminished power in Europe and Germany is once again in the ascendant. This is what Brexit fundamentally means and it is something we have to get used to along with higher prices in the shops. I for one did my weekly shop today and noticed that some significant price increases had occurred.

Shop somewhere else then. It's a free market.

Unfortunately, all parts of the British free market are affected. And given the fall of GBP and progressively more difficult access to non-UK markets, shopping in other markets is less available.

Assumptions...

It's quite possible that in a few years' time, agricultural imports will be cheaper; the one-off hit to sterling is permanent (as much as currency movements can be); tariffs could be both up and down in a few years, depending on the source of goods.
GDP, in five years' time... who the heck knows.

If you're SeanT, it doesn't matter; if you're a pensioner, probably bad news; if you're young, could go either way.

DecrepitJohnL said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

It's Sir Andrew Murray, Sir Mo Farrah, and Dame Jessica Ennis-Hill

Not Andy Murray, please -- no-one should be knighted while they are still playing.

All three are confirmed.

It really is Sir Andy Murray, Sir Mo Farah, and Dame Jessica Ennis-Hill.

For me, all three deserve their honours.

RobD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MaxPB said:

surbiton said:

RobD said:

surbiton said:

PlatoSaid said:

I hold media/Obama/Hillary's pandering to BLM responsible for the latter

http://nypost.com/2016/12/30/number-of-cops-killed-in-line-of-duty-this-year-spikes-drastically/

"Ambushes in Dallas and Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and other shootings around the country led to a sharp increase in the number of police killed in the line of duty this year.

From Jan. 1 through Wednesday, 135 officers lost their lives. Some died in traffic accidents, but nearly half were shot to death. That’s a 56 percent increase in shooting deaths over the previous year.

Of the 64 who were fatally shot, 21 were killed in ambush attacks often fueled by anger over police use of force involving minorities...

How many unarmed blacks were killed, you right-wing zealot ?

Oh, sorry, you were referring to people killed by police I think.

That figure looks to be down on 2015:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database

Are you saying that the killings of unarmed blacks [ or, any people ] by the police is OK ?

Are you saying that armed black people ambushing uniformed officers is ok?

No, but denying the underlying worsening of race relations due to racist police actions does not help.

BLM doesn't mean other lives do not, and of course the main taker of Black Lives via murder is other Blacks. America is a very sick society.

I wasn't denying it. It's curious, from all the news reports I thought that it had become a bigger problem recently when in fact the number killed has gone down by a third.

It's almost like a high profile, concerted campaign of awareness raising has had an effect

DavidL said:

Just supposing it was true for a moment that Russia had interfered in the US elections by hacking one of the political parties and releasing e-mails and other documents that caused them embarrassment. If that were the case would Obama's response not be the most pathetic response in modern times? Expel 35 diplomats. I mean, really, such an act would be amount to a declaration of war and his response is to expel 35 diplomats and shut down 2 "intelligence centres" (excuse me??)?

Putin is right to find this response so derisory as to not to require a response. Obama has finished as he has ruled, fine words and no action worth a damn. Within months of Trump Obamacare will have been reformed (not necessarily for the better of course) and it will be like the last 8 years never even happened. I cannot think of a President in recent times who has achieved so little. It's sad. He's a clever and articulate man but my lord, has he underperformed in office.

He's had almost zero time with both houses under democratic control. Due to the delay in Al Fraken being seated (6 moths) and I'll health of other Dem Senators there was only a filibuster proof senate majority for 70 odd days in the first two years. And after that the Reps simply filibustered everything in the Senate.

https://twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/814540714205921280

.

TheScreamingEagles said:

twitter.com/Mark_J_Perry/status/814540714205921280

I wonder what caused the bump in the 70s?

On topic

I think I have £2 on Enda Kenny still be Irish PM tomorrow night

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

viewcode said:

DavidL said:

The_Taxman said:

I did an article in (oh god thinks for a minute) 2013(?) about the most significant trading partners of each of the then-EU28. Germany has land or water borders with approx thirteen countries, and is the most significant trading partner of (from memory) eleven of them. It has achieved local hegemony and it is difficult to see UK withdrawal from the European theatre as decreasing German domination.

Nature abhors a vacuum. Whilst the UK was a part of the game the others could delude themselves that there was a balance of interests. Now they have to face reality. We have seen signs of a Latin bloc developing already to offset the Germanic bloc. The Germanic bloc has generally been supported by the UK rather than opposed. We have persuaded ourselves it was in our interests and more "market orientated". Things will change. Let's watch how. From a safe distance.

Quite dramatic, David. It's a trading bloc with competing self-interests. In several areas there have been moves towards further union. You are describing it as though the EU is a game of Risk.

We are or soon will be outside it. All well and good. No need to make such a dramatic song and dance about it; makes you sound like one of those who wishes failure upon it.

Quite the contrary, Mr Topping, I wish them well. We need a growing EU as a successful trading partner. Most of the Eurozone has been in recession for a lot of the last 10 years. They have been so because of German orientated monetary policies. This really cannot continue.

Delighted to hear. Huzzah for the EU.

Just out of interest, "we need a growing EU as a successful trading partner ".

How would you describe it to date?

It has been a serious drag on our growth since 2007. Prior to that it was pretty helpful. German policies of running a large surplus and a public sector surplus have aggravated the problems others in the EU have faced.

No more BMWs for us then in the brave new world ahead. That'll learn 'em.

Don't be ridiculous. We will remain one of their larger customers.

So what will change about their trade surplus when we leave? That was your point. Or do you think that without the UK's support Germany will falter?

But that doesn't play into the narrative of the UK being bullied by the nasty old EU.

Scott_P said:

TOPPING said:

No more BMWs for us then in the brave new world ahead. That'll learn 'em.

The impact of a hard Brexit on Britain and the rest of Europe could mean it becomes “mission impossible” for Theresa May, the head of the German motor industry association has warned.

In comments that will frustrate Downing Street, Matthias Wissmann suggested that the effects of the UK leaving the European Union’s single market were so great that Britain should be made to stay inside it. That would probably mean that Britain would have to continue paying into the EU’s budget and accept freedom of movement rules that have been ruled out by Mrs May.

Mr Wissmann, president of the VDA, said that the UK’s exit from the single market and customs union would have “massive negative effects” for Britain and the remaining EU countries. He said that there was “deep reciprocal dependency” between the car industries in Germany and the UK, with German cars accounting for half of all new cars registered in Britain, which imports 86% of its vehicles.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-could-be-forced-to-stay-in-single-market-ghd5n7656

Small print:

"with German cars accounting for half of all new cars registered in Britain, which imports 86% of its vehicles"

That is why he is so desperate to avoid British tariffs on German cars.

Speedy said:

"with German cars accounting for half of all new cars registered in Britain, which imports 86% of its vehicles"

That is why he is so desperate to avoid British tariffs on German cars.

And the leavers are cheering higher prices for 2 out of every 5 cars sold in the UK?

I didn't see that on your bus...

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

Don't be ridiculous. We will remain one of their larger customers.

We are a smaller market for BMW than China. Or the USA. Or the rest of the EU. Or Germany.

Apart from that...

So third largest then. Not bad really for such a pathetic lost little country is it?

Only 15 months in prison for a gang rape....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076394/Five-Afghan-teenagers-convicted-gang-raping-boy-knife-point-Sweden-NONE-deported-homeland-dangerous.html

DavidL said:

So third largest then. Not bad really for such a pathetic lost little country is it?

Counting not a strong suit amongst the Leave crowd then...

foxinsoxuk said:

Speedy said:

In anticipation of Trump's alliance with Russia, in a trip down history Thatcher was planning an alliance with the Soviets against Germany:
https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/814850338742304768

Thatcher was right, Germany is dominating Europe now and we desperately need allies against them.

If Germany was a threat*, then perhaps vacating the field to them in June was not wise.


*Germany is not. This is not 1939 or 1914, Germany is a free-market democracy with the rule of law and a dynamic capitalist economy. We should copy them rather than be afraid of them.

Britain's natural rival is whoever dominates the continent.
The UK has never looked if that country was a democracy, a monarchy or a dictatorship.

In 1914 Germany was a quazi-democracy ruled by the nephew of the King, and we still went to war with them.

In this case Britain's and Germany's economic and political interests collide, it doesn't matter if they are a democracy or not if you have opposing interests, the national interest comes first.

SeanT said:

Scott_P said:

TOPPING said:

No more BMWs for us then in the brave new world ahead. That'll learn 'em.

The impact of a hard Brexit on Britain and the rest of Europe could mean it becomes “mission impossible” for Theresa May, the head of the German motor industry association has warned.

In comments that will frustrate Downing Street, Matthias Wissmann suggested that the effects of the UK leaving the European Union’s single market were so great that Britain should be made to stay inside it. That would probably mean that Britain would have to continue paying into the EU’s budget and accept freedom of movement rules that have been ruled out by Mrs May.

Mr Wissmann, president of the VDA, said that the UK’s exit from the single market and customs union would have “massive negative effects” for Britain and the remaining EU countries. He said that there was “deep reciprocal dependency” between the car industries in Germany and the UK, with German cars accounting for half of all new cars registered in Britain, which imports 86% of its vehicles.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-could-be-forced-to-stay-in-single-market-ghd5n7656

lol. How are are they gonna MAKE us stay inside it?

They really don't understand the psychology of Britons.

Cameron left politics because he knew that he had set his country up for the humiliation to end all humiliations by allowing it to vote for something that cannot be delivered.

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

So third largest then. Not bad really for such a pathetic lost little country is it?

Counting not a strong suit amongst the Leave crowd then...

Third: https://www.statista.com/statistics/267252/key-automobile-markets-of-bmw-group/

How's your arithmetic?

@Speedy

Cousin of the King! (and so was our ally Russia)

DavidL said:

How's your arithmetic?

How may markets appear above the UK in that chart?

Here's a clue. It's more than 2...

And the EU (which does not appear as an aggregated figure on that chart would also appear above it.

So, tell us again how 10% is the 3rd largest customer?

SeanT said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Only 15 months in prison for a gang rape....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076394/Five-Afghan-teenagers-convicted-gang-raping-boy-knife-point-Sweden-NONE-deported-homeland-dangerous.html

In the end I would vote for a Fascist party, rather than allow this hateful shit to continue

Indeed I've thought this might be a good quiz for pb-ers

If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

Muslim or Le Pen.

Farage or Shariah

Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

What do other pb-ers think?

I have to do a double check when I read it...I presumed it was 15 YEARS....but apparently not.

Scott_P said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Not sure you have a leg to stand on, mr no clue about simple probability....

This is not a question of probability. It's a question of arithmetic.

How many make 3?

Apparently beyond some.

Simple probability was beyond you, so I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when poking fun at people when it comes to maths.

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

How's your arithmetic?

How may markets appear above the UK in that chart?

Here's a clue. It's more than 2...

And the EU (which does not appear as an aggregated figure on that chart would also appear above it.

So, tell us again how 10% is the 3rd largest customer?

One of the three is Germany itself. It is not an export market. And more than 10% of all BMWs sold in the UK. You think that they are going to want tariffs on those if they can possibly stop it?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Scott_P said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Not sure you have a leg to stand on, mr no clue about simple probability....

This is not a question of probability. It's a question of arithmetic.

How many make 3?

Apparently beyond some.

Simple probability was beyond you, so I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when poking fun at people when it comes to maths.

On inspection three countries appear above the U.K. on the chart linked to by David.

How post-truth is this going to get?!

DavidL said:

One of the three is Germany itself. It is not an export market.

True, but you didn't say export

DavidL said:

Don't be ridiculous. We will remain one of their larger customers.

One of their larger customers. Not the largest, or the 2nd largest, or in fact the 3rd largest

DavidL said:

And more than 10% of all BMWs sold in the UK. You think that they are going to want tariffs on those if they can possibly stop it?

No, I don't think they want tariffs, but as ever that is not the real problem. The integrated International supply chain for car parts within the customs union would be crippled if we left. That's what they are worried about.

SeanT said:

DavidL said:

SeanT said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Only 15 months in prison for a gang rape....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076394/Five-Afghan-teenagers-convicted-gang-raping-boy-knife-point-Sweden-NONE-deported-homeland-dangerous.html

In the end I would vote for a Fascist party, rather than allow this hateful shit to continue

Indeed I've thought this might be a good quiz for pb-ers

If you had a hypothetical choice, between voting for a hard right, Fascist or Front National type party, or your country becoming majority Muslim, which would you choose?

Those are the alternatives, pb-ers:

Muslim or Le Pen.

Farage or Shariah

Unquestionably, I would vote Farage. I would almost certainly vote Le Pen or Wilders. Indeed I would probably vote for Mussolini, in preference to Britain becoming majority Muslim.

What do other pb-ers think?

I think this is a completely false choice. We are better than that. Despite appalling decisions like this.

Oh FFS. It's an hypothesis.

It's a choice, unlikely to be realised but not impossible. Yes it is stark and horrible. But it is a choice. And we are pb, and we are adults. So you CHOOSE.

Anyone who doesn't have the balls to choose is a ballet loving gimp.

CHOOSE

Even the women's legs and obvious flexibility doesn't attract me to ballet. Our challenge is to keep what we value and fight for it. The rule of law, liberal tolerance, freedom of expression, equality and respect for difference. We have taken these principles for granted and we don't do enough to enforce them through our society tolerating the abuse and debasement of women and other minorities. We need to do better, not waste time on false choices.

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Scott_P said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Not sure you have a leg to stand on, mr no clue about simple probability....

This is not a question of probability. It's a question of arithmetic.

How many make 3?

Apparently beyond some.

Simple probability was beyond you, so I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when poking fun at people when it comes to maths.

On inspection three countries appear above the U.K. on the chart linked to by David.

How post-truth is this going to get?!

One of them is Germany. We are the BMW's third largest export market. This is just silly.

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Scott_P said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Not sure you have a leg to stand on, mr no clue about simple probability....

This is not a question of probability. It's a question of arithmetic.

How many make 3?

Apparently beyond some.

Simple probability was beyond you, so I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on when poking fun at people when it comes to maths.

On inspection three countries appear above the U.K. on the chart linked to by David.

How post-truth is this going to get?!

One of them is Germany. We are the BMW's third largest export market. This is just silly.

Oh, export.

Going to bed now v happy to reassemble soon.

Bon Nuit.