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SystemSystem Posts: 12,764
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A worrying Christmas present for TMay and the Brexiteers from Team Trump

Tomorrow’s Times front page

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited December 2016
    I am sick of this sexual assualting groping pervert trying to claim Brexit and his election is one of the same. Fuck trump and fuck anyone who voted for him. They make me sick.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    So like pussy, Trump and his team are going to grab our trade, tres brilliant.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    edited December 2016
    He's also telling the rest of the EU to grab that trade too.

    Clearly this is an excuse for Mrs May to ensure the U.K remains within the single market and customs union.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    nunu said:

    I am sick of this sexual assualting groping pervert trying to claim Brexit and his election is one of the same. Fuck trump and fuck anyone who voted for him. They make me sick.

    Farage and Trump are two cheeks of the same arse to us members of metropolitan liberal elite.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    Like I said in the previous thread, other countries would be utterly stupid not to try to attract businesses. They should be doing this all the time!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,249
    How helpful of the new US administration & the Times to provide us with a thread header combining our two perennial favourites Brexit & Mr Trump.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,301
    We have voted to sail our own route. No point complaining that the waters are swimming with sharks.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    When did the Times become a tabloid? "Brexiteers"? Come on.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited December 2016
    I just wanted to check the basis of the Times article:

    * Wilbur Ross is well known investor in financial services companies
    * He urged Cyprus to liberalize their financial services regime
    * He claimed this was in Cyprus's interest because they could win business from London

    This is just bollocks. Wilbur Ross was advocating the same policies - designed to make him richer - for over a decade. He's just hooked it onto Brexit to make it seem more relevant.*

    The Times seems to have learnt the wrong lesdons from the Grey Lady's "news theme fitting" scandal. It *wasn't* a good idea

    * @RobD is not wrong although I think he's over thinking it on the occasion
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,442
    @Pulpstar

    The EU-Boat menace!!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    May's greatest stupidity is not realising this: that you can't deal with Trump as if he were a mature and rounded human being of the kind that mature western democracies are intended to produce as leaders. He is more akin to the type of leader thrown up by broken African states, or the Roman empire, or by the theory of the divine right of kings. Point two: such people tend to have arbitrarily selected favourites. Point three: irrespective of your personal views of a favourite, what you do is get so far up his ass that you need crampons, in order to get to the Big Man himself. May's failure to appoint Farage as Envoy Extraordinary to the court of the Donald, with special responsibility for trolling the EU, is tantamount to folding a royal flush in a game of poker. It makes no difference that you think Trump is a wanker, and it makes no difference that you think Farage is a wanker, or that he wears prattish overcoats, or has never won an election; just as thinking, let alone saying, that Sejanus or Piers Gaveston or the Duke of Buckingham was a wanker never got anyone anywhere. With a bit of imagination May could have bought herself priceless access and, as a side dish, possibly transferred to her own party the Farage loyalist UKIP vote, instead of squandering the opportunity because some tory suits don't like the cut of Farage's jib.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,546
    Merry Xmas - this couldn't have waited, President Trump('s man)?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ThreeQuidder said:

    When did the Times become a tabloid? "Brexiteers"? Come on.

    1 November 2004. I wish all questions were as easy as that one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2016
    Both Trump & Brexit are provincial reversions: as I see it Trump's game is isolationism and so is withdrawing from the EU.
    But, willy nilly (No spell checker! Not silly, billy or dilly.) modern digital technology is driving us together. The tension is exquisite.
    God's human experiment may be short lived.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
    Wouldn't said responsibilities be those that the current ambassador is responsible for? What they should be doing is working with him informally.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited December 2016
    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
    Wouldn't said responsibilities be those that the current ambassador is responsible for? What they should be doing is working with him informally.
    If the current ambassador is any good at his job he should be urging exactly the same thing as I am urging.

    And it would be a bit rich for the woman who put Davis and IDS where they are today to start claiming that she was unhappy with appointing people to high office if they were complete twats.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,330
    An earlier snafu from the Telegraph, saved for posterity.

    image
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    williamglenn said:

    An earlier snafu from the Telegraph, saved for posterity.

    image

    PB like TV at Christmas... full of repeats
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
    Wouldn't said responsibilities be those that the current ambassador is responsible for? What they should be doing is working with him informally.
    If the current ambassador is any good at his job he should be urging exactly the same thing as I am urging.

    And it would be a bit rich for the woman who put Davis and IDS where they are today to start claiming that she was unhappy with appointing people to high office if they were complete twats.
    If he was any good at his job he should be urging May to appoint someone else to do his job? :D
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,330
    isam said:

    PB like TV at Christmas... full of repeats

    They deleted the tweet later so it's for the benefit of those who missed it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    @williamglenn - the Telegraph has gone down the toilet in recent years, at least the online version.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    williamglenn said:

    isam said:

    PB like TV at Christmas... full of repeats

    They deleted the tweet later so it's for the benefit of those who missed it.
    I think he means it was posted on here earlier too.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
    Wouldn't said responsibilities be those that the current ambassador is responsible for? What they should be doing is working with him informally.
    If the current ambassador is any good at his job he should be urging exactly the same thing as I am urging.

    And it would be a bit rich for the woman who put Davis and IDS where they are today to start claiming that she was unhappy with appointing people to high office if they were complete twats.
    If he was any good at his job he should be urging May to appoint someone else to do his job? :D
    Going in circles here. I said, carefully defined and different job. Secondly, yes - if he thought that Farage would get massively more out of Trump than he himself would, he should advise what is best for the UK, not what is best for his own career.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    Someone at The Times needs sacking. They think The Queen is Prince George's Grandmother.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/813128242639077377
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    RobD said:

    @Ishmael_Z - The UK already has an ambassador in the US. Appointing Farage to such a role would massively undermine him. Saying that, May should just get it over and done with and ennoble him IMO, or perhaps that is the nuclear option if the Lords don't agree in A50?

    That is why my suggestion was an Envoy Extraordinary post with limited, defined responsibilities. Where there's a will there's a way.
    Wouldn't said responsibilities be those that the current ambassador is responsible for? What they should be doing is working with him informally.
    If the current ambassador is any good at his job he should be urging exactly the same thing as I am urging.

    And it would be a bit rich for the woman who put Davis and IDS where they are today to start claiming that she was unhappy with appointing people to high office if they were complete twats.
    If he was any good at his job he should be urging May to appoint someone else to do his job? :D
    Going in circles here. I said, carefully defined and different job. Secondly, yes - if he thought that Farage would get massively more out of Trump than he himself would, he should advise what is best for the UK, not what is best for his own career.
    Sorry, was teasing you a bit with that last reply. I think one of the reasons he isn't being appointed to any position is that it would use an enormous amount of May's political capital.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Someone at The Times needs sacking. They think The Queen is Prince George's Grandmother.

    twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/813128242639077377

    They were only being polite about her age. ;)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,735
    @TSE They'll be claiming that the Queen is Prince Harry's grandmother next...
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Someone at The Times needs sacking. They think The Queen is Prince George's Grandmother.

    https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/813128242639077377

    Mary Beard's got her hands on a bit of old rug
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    SandyRentool said:

    @TSE They'll be claiming that the Queen is Prince Harry's grandmother next...

    Cheeky ;)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    SandyRentool said:

    @TSE They'll be claiming that the Queen is Prince Harry's grandmother next...

    You're a very bad man.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,747
    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    DavidL said:

    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.

    British exceptionalism. How quaint.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,442
    RIP George Michael :(
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    Bromptonaut said:

    DavidL said:

    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.

    British exceptionalism. How quaint.
    Is it? I think the argument was that they can do it again because they have done it before, not because they are British.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    edited December 2016
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    RIP George Michael :(

    The grim reaper's haul for 2016 gets bigger.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    America will do what's best for America shock.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Regardless of whether Brexit can be a success or not, the struggle some people have with understanding that other countries - whether openly adversarial or not - aren't on our 'side/team' is mystifying.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,657
    Grim Reaper didn't even take sodding Christmas day off !!!!!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 88,657
    SO....no confirmed...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38432862
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,330
    RobD said:

    Bromptonaut said:

    DavidL said:

    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.

    British exceptionalism. How quaint.
    Is it? I think the argument was that they can do it again because they have done it before, not because they are British.
    I though the argument was that they always get their way, so will be able to stop Brexit one way or another?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,249
    RobD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
    Not a very healthy profession, by all appearances.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    FFS - that is horrible. RIP.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    As a child of the 80s, Wham! and George Michael forever hold a special place in my heart.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    Bromptonaut said:

    DavidL said:

    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.

    British exceptionalism. How quaint.
    Is it? I think the argument was that they can do it again because they have done it before, not because they are British.
    I though the argument was that they always get their way, so will be able to stop Brexit one way or another?
    That's your hope, certainly.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    The Times story is based on stuff said by Ross "days after the referendum", when a trump victory followed by a Ross appointment was a 10000 to 1 shot. The times obviously finds Christmas a slow news day.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    What an appalling year this has been.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,442
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8gmARGvPlI
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,581
    The other part of this Times story is that Boris is openly briefing against Mrs May, again.

    Just imagine what a credible opposition could do with this.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,249
    The season of peace & goodwill .. and, of course heavy drinking.

    I wondered what was worth reporting in the arrest of 4 men over a fight ... so I bothered to look, and it involved some 100 people.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-38430669
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1QQtw1q__3E&ebc=ANyPxKp8x1Eun7ZuMS_mPrIluM7Umq2ijMsWfvu-_bosQKd3ktw34xmVtb82OKiHAL17CvRd2FFW
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    AnneJGP said:

    RobD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
    Not a very healthy profession, by all appearances.
    I really liked George Michael, v upsetting. For years I was sure he had AIDS though, men who keep nearly dying from pneumonia, esp if sexually active in the 80s gay scene must be contenders.

    His bf died of AIDS in 1995 I think? The inspiration for much of 'Older'
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,747
    Very sad news about George Michael. A truly talented artist. I know the theory is that there are just more celebrities these days but this year is still remarkable.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    RIP George Michael. Only 53.

    His first appearance on Top of the Pops was shown just a few days ago on the BBC 4 repeats:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b086824r/top-of-the-pops-18111982
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 27,395
    @SouthamObserver - and in colour too. :)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,302
    isam said:

    AnneJGP said:

    RobD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
    Not a very healthy profession, by all appearances.
    I really liked George Michael, v upsetting. For years I was sure he had AIDS though, men who keep nearly dying from pneumonia, esp if sexually active in the 80s gay scene must be contenders.

    His bf died of AIDS in 1995 I think? The inspiration for much of 'Older'
    George Michael was an immense talent, with a superb voice. He could have been the Sinatra of our times. Should have been. Sadly, he didn't seem very well equipped to deal with his demons.

    Perhaps the saddest loss in a year of immense losses.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    @tig86 - I was there. Behind the goal in the Paxton End. Spurs were 3-0 up after 20 minutes. Second goal from Mark Falco, no finer was ever scored at White Hart Lane.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    MarqueeMark said:

    isam said:

    AnneJGP said:

    RobD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
    Not a very healthy profession, by all appearances.
    I really liked George Michael, v upsetting. For years I was sure he had AIDS though, men who keep nearly dying from pneumonia, esp if sexually active in the 80s gay scene must be contenders.

    His bf died of AIDS in 1995 I think? The inspiration for much of 'Older'
    George Michael was an immense talent, with a superb voice. He could have been the Sinatra of our times. Should have been. Sadly, he didn't seem very well equipped to deal with his demons.

    Perhaps the saddest loss in a year of immense losses.
    Pretty stunned. I saw him in concert in around 2007. Fantastic artist I loved him.

    My best mate is his biggest fan, thinks he had 'a moment' with him at a Paris concert when their eyes met!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Club Tropicana and Young Guns were my favourites. Didn't like his later stuff much apart from Fastlove.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    This year can't end soon enough.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,040
    On a happier note:

    We were discussing the middle class obsessions with the "done" things the other day...

    My mother-in-law - a wonderful lady - will only drink sweet wine. With anything.

    There is, in the family, a person who is an awful wine snob/bore.

    So, at Christma lunch - beef - I served by MiL with a rather rare vintage of Tokaji. The snob/bore was forced to watch. Unable to say anything, since he wanted some when desert came...

    Somehow, I think it is very much in the Christmas spirit to torment a fool using generosity & kindness.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Wham bam I am a man. It was Norf London, it was the early 80s and we could do anything. Fuck me, the world has changed. So very, very sad.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    AndyJS said:

    Club Tropicana and Young Guns were my favourites. Didn't like his later stuff much apart from Fastlove.

    The album 'Older' was great I thought, he was a true superstar. Really loved a lot of his work.

    Actually one of my favs was a song he didn't write, 'I can't make you love me'
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 56,442
    Careless Whisper is my favourite solo of hit of his. Last Christmas my favourite Wham! song.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Malmesbury said:

    On a happier note:

    We were discussing the middle class obsessions with the "done" things the other day...

    My mother-in-law - a wonderful lady - will only drink sweet wine. With anything.

    There is, in the family, a person who is an awful wine snob/bore.

    So, at Christma lunch - beef - I served by MiL with a rather rare vintage of Tokaji. The snob/bore was forced to watch. Unable to say anything, since he wanted some when desert came...

    Somehow, I think it is very much in the Christmas spirit to torment a fool using generosity & kindness.

    Excellent fun. I had a decent Auslese Reisling to go with my pud today. I always have a half bottle in honour of my deceased Father in Law who genuinely loved his wine. Many a happy hour we would spend poring over the wine atlas, while the ladies rolled their eyes.

    Today though, I was the designated driver to take grandma fox home after dinner, so just enough for a taste...

  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    edited December 2016
    RIP George

    https://youtu.be/QbWJO8RMg1A
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,040
    "Excellent fun. I had a decent Auslese Reisling to go with my pud today. I always have a half bottle in honour of my deceased Father in Law who genuinely loved his wine. Many a happy hour we would spend poring over the wine atlas, while the ladies rolled their eyes."

    Perhaps the best part was that my mother-in-law has no knowledge of wine. There is a particular pleasure in giving someone a fine wine, who has no knowledge or interest in wine, but simply enjoys it... Just smiles, and asks for more. Give me that over the plaudits of the The Angry Men any day.

    Many years ago I shared a bottle of ancient brandy with a Nepalese guide who, unlike the other fools on the trip, just enjoyed the taste. That was a very fine sunrise.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,067
    Hope all had a lovely Christmas. This is a non story really. What is more of a 'worry' is the degree to which Murdoch is gunning for Brexit. Tripe as this is, relentless headlines running our prospects down aren't good mood music.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,154
    DavidL said:

    Merry Christmas everyone. Been a really busy and fun day. Hope everyone been enjoying themselves.

    There was a comment on here some months ago which said if the City needed protection it would not be the City and I think that was right. The City will face new challenges and competition but for a very long time it has been taking on such challenges and winning. I am not sure why it would not do that again.

    I have no doubt that - in the longer term - the City will flourish. But I think we are suffering from the psychological flaw of attributing our success solely to our ability, and not giving weight to a great big chunk of luck.

    In 1985, European finance was multi-polar. British merchant banks served British savers and British business from London. The same was true of Paris and France, Stockholm and Sweden, Frankfurt and Germany.

    Two things happened: one, the Eurobond market (and we were the guys to spoke English); two, everywhere deregulated, and our firms were much easier to snap up by the Americans as they were small.

    Result, London became the European financial capital. It's all too easy to think there is something in our DNA that made us successful, rather than a lucky accident of history.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 58,040
    edited December 2016
    "Result, London became the European financial capital. It's all too easy to think there is something in our DNA that made us successful, rather than a lucky accident of history."

    True. And the German motor industry is busy trying to prove that "this too shall pass"...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Malmesbury said:

    "Excellent fun. I had a decent Auslese Reisling to go with my pud today. I always have a half bottle in honour of my deceased Father in Law who genuinely loved his wine. Many a happy hour we would spend poring over the wine atlas, while the ladies rolled their eyes."

    Perhaps the best part was that my mother-in-law has no knowledge of wine. There is a particular pleasure in giving someone a fine wine, who has no knowledge or interest in wine, but simply enjoys it... Just smiles, and asks for more. Give me that over the plaudits of the The Angry Men any day.

    Many years ago I shared a bottle of ancient brandy with a Nepalese guide who, unlike the other fools on the trip, just enjoyed the taste. That was a very fine sunrise.

    My father in law had a genuine love and appreciation of wine, but living on a tight pension he had to search out bargains. I liked to indulge him when he came to dinner. He was a gentle dreamer, with whom I never argued in 30 years.

  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    Thoughts?

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/813175471198400517
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    Thoughts?

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/813175471198400517

    George Michael was quite vocal in support of the miners during the strike, including headlining at a benefit concert for families of strikers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,890
    Is anyone seriously surprised? Trump won by promising to put America First, Second and Third. He did not say he favoured any foreign nation over any other. An "Anglosphere" was an Hannanite fantasy. He is a Nationalist. He doesn't give a monkey's about any "special relationship" fantasies others may have.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited December 2016
    MyBurningEars said:

    There's an enduring question about whether the marginal utility of success can stray into negative territory. Plenty of us lesser mortals secretly hope that it does, I think, as our mechanism to keep the green-eyed monster at bay.

    From the sample of successful people I know in flesh and blood, there doesn't seem much evidence for the proposition. If money or recognition can't buy happiness directly, they at least give a strong base to pursue those things that do.

    But the case of Andrew Ridgeley and George Michael has been one I've pondered in the past. Couldn't help but wonder whether Michael would have had a happier, fuller and more peaceful life if he'd entered the realm of obscurity by the turn of the 90s - by what little accounts we hear of him these days, Ridgeley seems to have had a good one - or whether feelings of frustration, rejection and failure would simply have fed his demons more.

    I had a suspicion that George Michael would, once he'd got tired of touring, just settle down in a big house with a nice lad and have a quiet retirement, perhaps punctuated by the odd controversial outburst to keep things lively. Sadly not to be. And not an age either, the poor sod.

    Andrew Ridgley seems to have his head screwed on right:

    http://thephilosophersmail.com/hierarchy/why-andrew-ridgeley-is-the-winner-and-george-michael-the-loser/

    I take a little interest as in 1983 I did rather look and dress like the less talented half of Wham!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,108
    2016 sucks.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    2016 sucks.

    Best year ever for Leicester City. No amount of Brexit can take that from me, though arguably Trump could with a nuclear apocalypse.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,936
    foxinsoxuk said:

    MyBurningEars said:

    There's an enduring question about whether the marginal utility of success can stray into negative territory. Plenty of us lesser mortals secretly hope that it does, I think, as our mechanism to keep the green-eyed monster at bay.

    From the sample of successful people I know in flesh and blood, there doesn't seem much evidence for the proposition. If money or recognition can't buy happiness directly, they at least give a strong base to pursue those things that do.

    But the case of Andrew Ridgeley and George Michael has been one I've pondered in the past. Couldn't help but wonder whether Michael would have had a happier, fuller and more peaceful life if he'd entered the realm of obscurity by the turn of the 90s - by what little accounts we hear of him these days, Ridgeley seems to have had a good one - or whether feelings of frustration, rejection and failure would simply have fed his demons more.

    I had a suspicion that George Michael would, once he'd got tired of touring, just settle down in a big house with a nice lad and have a quiet retirement, perhaps punctuated by the odd controversial outburst to keep things lively. Sadly not to be. And not an age either, the poor sod.

    Andrew Ridgley seems to have his head screwed on right:

    http://thephilosophersmail.com/hierarchy/why-andrew-ridgeley-is-the-winner-and-george-michael-the-loser/

    I take a little interest as in 1983 I did rather look and dress like the less talented half of Wham!
    Hmmmmmm

    Andrew Ridgely couldn't sing, play an instrument or write. Wham! was George Michael solo with his best mate as a cool wingman as backup who gave him confidence. He even credited Ridgely as a writer on Careless Whisper even though he had nothing to do with it.

    So, although I wanted to be Ridgely in 84, I don't think his withdrawal from poplife was entirely voluntary
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    @ WilliamGlenn "I though the argument was that they always get their way, so will be able to stop Brexit one way or another?"

    Successfully adapting to reality is not the same as always getting your way. I know this is a hard concept for you, as you have not adapted to the reality of Brexit and have convinced yourself it will not happen so you will get your way.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    So the 'May snubs queen' story was 4 months old and the 'Trump aide' story is 6 months old.......I'm sure the bottom of the barrel must be in reach by now......'President Wilson refuses to aid Britain against continental foes' can't be far off......

    Very sad news about George Michael - although if he has been ill for a while he handled it with commendable discretion.

    Also tragic news yesterday about (what was) the Red Army Choir - and jolly suspicious rush to rule out terrorism - tough old birds like the Tu-154 don't come apart in mid-air easily....
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    AnneJGP said:

    RobD said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    That George Michael news is surely fake, isn't it?

    Doesn't look like it:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/813157601361985536
    Not a very healthy profession, by all appearances.
    Vera Lynn :relaxed:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    FWIW (possibly not much) TMZ reporting George Michael died of 'heart failure' in his sleep but 'had not been ill'

    http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/25/george-michael-dead-at-53/

    From what I know of heart failure (lost a parent to a slow progressive illness) the two statements don't seem compatible....
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    CarlottaVance said:

    FWIW (possibly not much) TMZ reporting George Michael died of 'heart failure' in his sleep but 'had not been ill'

    http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/25/george-michael-dead-at-53/

    From what I know of heart failure (lost a parent to a slow progressive illness) the two statements don't seem compatible....

    Absolutely possible. My uncle dropped dead of a completely unsuspected heart condition at age 31. He was a Met policeman who appeared to be in perfect health and had chased a suspect the full length of the Mall the night before.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Very sad news regarding George Michael’s death, the grim reaper has certainly been working overtime in 2016. - I’ll break it to her gently, but her indoors will be gutted by this news.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    rpjs said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    FWIW (possibly not much) TMZ reporting George Michael died of 'heart failure' in his sleep but 'had not been ill'

    http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/25/george-michael-dead-at-53/

    From what I know of heart failure (lost a parent to a slow progressive illness) the two statements don't seem compatible....

    Absolutely possible. My uncle dropped dead of a completely unsuspected heart condition at age 31. He was a Met policeman who appeared to be in perfect health and had chased a suspect the full length of the Mall the night before.
    I expect more will emerge in due course - ITN also saying his manager suspects he died of 'Heart Failure' - which may just be his lay term for 'heart stopping for as yet unknown reason' - as some remarked when Carrie Fisher took ill, years of substance abuse take their toll on the heart too.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,793
    edited December 2016
    On topic, the weird thing about all the alt-right nationalists is how well they get on with each other, considering their entire platform is that they're being too nice to each other's countries and need to be more uncompromising in fucking each other over.

    Anyhow the big picture here is that it's a really, really shitty time to be ripping up your existing trade deals and expecting to make new ones.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edmundintokyo said:

    On topic, the weird thing about all the alt-right nationalists is how well they get on with each other, considering their entire platform is that they're being too nice to each other's countries and need to be more uncompromising in fucking each other over.

    Anyhow the big picture here is that it's a really, really shitty time to be ripping up your existing trade deals and expecting to make new ones.

    Remains to be seen what Trump does with those existing trade deals, NAFTA appears to be in line to get a good going over, I would not want to bet that US-EU won't come under similar scrutiny before too long.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,816
    CarlottaVance said:



    Also tragic news yesterday about (what was) the Red Army Choir - and jolly suspicious rush to rule out terrorism - tough old birds like the Tu-154 don't come apart in mid-air easily....

    Don't confuse an unsophisticated design that's manufactured poorly with being "tough".

    The Tu-154 has an appalling safety record. They have a an accident involving fatalities about once every 1 million flight hours - roughly 20 times worse than Western types.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Dura_Ace said:

    CarlottaVance said:



    Also tragic news yesterday about (what was) the Red Army Choir - and jolly suspicious rush to rule out terrorism - tough old birds like the Tu-154 don't come apart in mid-air easily....

    Don't confuse an unsophisticated design that's manufactured poorly with being "tough".

    The Tu-154 has an appalling safety record.
    How many ascribed to the aircraft & how many to pilot error/other factors?

    The TU154 was a workhorse for the furthest corners of the Soviet Union to areas where airport facilities were poor. Its very strange for a relatively young (in terms of flying hours) disintegrate in mid-air shortly after take off.

    Difficult for the Russians - which is more embarrassing - terrorism or technical failure of a Russian Airforce operated Russian designed and built plane.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    rpjs said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    FWIW (possibly not much) TMZ reporting George Michael died of 'heart failure' in his sleep but 'had not been ill'

    http://www.tmz.com/2016/12/25/george-michael-dead-at-53/

    From what I know of heart failure (lost a parent to a slow progressive illness) the two statements don't seem compatible....

    Absolutely possible. My uncle dropped dead of a completely unsuspected heart condition at age 31. He was a Met policeman who appeared to be in perfect health and had chased a suspect the full length of the Mall the night before.
    My sympathies. I'm turning 31 next year, and that is not something I wanted to hear!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    CarlottaVance said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    CarlottaVance said:



    Also tragic news yesterday about (what was) the Red Army Choir - and jolly suspicious rush to rule out terrorism - tough old birds like the Tu-154 don't come apart in mid-air easily....

    Don't confuse an unsophisticated design that's manufactured poorly with being "tough".

    The Tu-154 has an appalling safety record.
    How many ascribed to the aircraft & how many to pilot error/other factors?

    The TU154 was a workhorse for the furthest corners of the Soviet Union to areas where airport facilities were poor. Its very strange for a relatively young (in terms of flying hours) disintegrate in mid-air shortly after take off.

    Difficult for the Russians - which is more embarrassing - terrorism or technical failure of a Russian Airforce operated Russian designed and built plane.....
    Anecdote alert:

    Whilst discussing this after dinner yesterday. my brother said he'd flown on a Russian airliner (I'm unsure whether it was a TU-154) a few years earlier. It had been his worst ever flight: noisy, cramped, a rough ride, and his ears kept on popping. The door seals were rotten, and the plane had trouble keeping pressurised.

    That is the level of maintenance we are talking about. Lack of money meaning lack of spares, things being used past their lifetimes, and a make-do-and-mend approach that would be admirable in fields other than aerospace.

    Be very careful about the investigation: as the manufacturer and owner of the aircraft, and as the country who had the majority of the deaths, Russia will be in total charge of the investigation. As we saw with the ludicrous and sick 'investigation' into the MH17 shootdown, what we'll get - either way - is what they want the outside world to hear, rather than the truth.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    @JosiasJessop - it wasn't a plane operated by the military? You would have thought those were in tip top condition.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    RIP George Michael.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited December 2016
    JosiasJessop said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    CarlottaVance said:



    Also tragic news yesterday about (what was) the Red Army Choir - and jolly suspicious rush to rule out terrorism - tough old birds like the Tu-154 don't come apart in mid-air easily....

    Don't confuse an unsophisticated design that's manufactured poorly with being "tough".

    The Tu-154 has an appalling safety record.
    How many ascribed to the aircraft & how many to pilot error/other factors?

    The TU154 was a workhorse for the furthest corners of the Soviet Union to areas where airport facilities were poor. Its very strange for a relatively young (in terms of flying hours) disintegrate in mid-air shortly after take off.

    Difficult for the Russians - which is more embarrassing - terrorism or technical failure of a Russian Airforce operated Russian designed and built plane.....
    Be very careful about the investigation: as the manufacturer and owner of the aircraft, and as the country who had the majority of the deaths, Russia will be in total charge of the investigation. As we saw with the ludicrous and sick 'investigation' into the MH17 shootdown, what we'll get - either way - is what they want the outside world to hear, rather than the truth.
    Exactly. Hence my suspicion at the immediate dismissal of terrorism. I flew on both the Il-62 and TU-154 - big solid planes which rather reminded me of DC-8s - 'built like a brick outhouse' - more concerned with aerodynamics than economics (for example, I'm convinced the 747-400s were noisier inside than their -200 predecessors, after one suspects the accountants came after the engineers to reduce weight) - and while the TU-154 has been involved in more accidents than its contemporaries, few have been ascribed to the aircraft.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,177
    Not so long ago, and particularly in artistic circles, any reference to pneumonia could be taken as code for HIV.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,787
    RobD said:

    @JosiasJessop - it wasn't a plane operated by the military? You would have thought those were in tip top condition.

    The same thing applies. The Russian military has massive money problems, and the little money they have is going on the 'sexy' things - renewing bombers, new ballistic missile submarines and missiles that 'promote' the country's power. The workhorses such as the TU-154 are little regarded.

    Remember, they are trying to maintain much larger forces than ours, on not much more money. For instance, they have five times the number of active personnel, six times the number of submarines and over three times the number of aircraft. Whilst they get more bang for their buck, they don't get *that* much more.

    In fact, such aircraft are often disregarded in many military forces. The people at the top of the forces are all serving officers who like the exciting weapons systems and not the mundane, whilst they should be remembering that logistics is the key to all armies.

    ISTR the same thing happened in Iran during their sanctions: several military transport planes fell from the sky due to maintenance issues. It's one reason they're probably so keen to sign the deal for new Boeings.

    http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.asp?form=form&country1=united-kingdom&country2=russia&Submit=COMPARE
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,832
    edited December 2016
    @JosiasJessop - Fair points, thanks for the reply. I was particularly interested with our $10trn external debt.. where'd that come from? :o

    My bad, confusing external debt and public debt. Blame my Christmas 'cheer' :D
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