politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Never gonna give EU up. The latest Brexit legal challenge, thi

System · December 2016

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Never gonna give EU up. The latest Brexit legal challenge, this time to keep Le Royaume-Uni within the single market

Picture: Protester outisde the Supreme Court whilst the Article 50 was being heard

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Cookie · December 2016

first?

Scott_P · December 2016

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/808047976396521472

Charles · December 2016

@Philip_Thompson FPT

There was a point in time when we used Oz as a prison camp. As an intrinsic part of the UK legal apparatus (akin to a prison) geography didnt really matter at all

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

What can I say?
I don't want to play any more
What can I say?
I'm heading for the door
I can't stand this emotional violence!
LEAVE IN SILENCE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVu6Wihbp4Q

Icarus · December 2016

Fourth like Labour in Sleaford - no fifth like Labour at the next by election

welshowl · December 2016

Let's just say one of these increasingly exotic legal wheezes actually succeeded in derailing Brexit against the wishes of the largest democratic vote in British history: What then exactly? Junker and his acolytes aren't exactly going to want us back (don't blame them for that). What if the EU then decides it can wheedle its way to say imposing taxes at a European level on me even though we voted out. How big a pitchfork is legitimate I wonder?

MarkHopkins · December 2016

Charles said:
@Philip_Thompson FPT

There was a point in time when we used Oz as a prison camp. As an intrinsic part of the UK legal apparatus (akin to a prison) geography didnt really matter at all

Surely geography did matter, using a prison a long way away was the whole point!

Philip_Thompson · December 2016

MarkHopkins said:

Charles said:
@Philip_Thompson FPT

There was a point in time when we used Oz as a prison camp. As an intrinsic part of the UK legal apparatus (akin to a prison) geography didnt really matter at all

Surely geography did matter, using a prison a long way away was the whole point!

Yes you beat me to it.

nielh · December 2016

If you voted leave but don't actually want to leave the single market, you clearly made the wrong decision. These court cases need to stop.

williamglenn · December 2016

It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.

Moses_ · December 2016

OT

I think if this just turns out to be correct then we have just crossed the rubicon.......

Two girls of just SEVEN blow themselves up in a suicide bomb attack at a market in Nigeria

Pair blew themselves up in Boko Haram stronghold of Borno state in Nigeria
Girls killed themselves and one other person, while 18 people were left injured
Boko Haram believed to be behind attack but have not yet taken responsibility

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4022264/Girls-aged-7-8-stage-suicide-attack-Nigeria.html#ixzz4SZ6yUwoI

Philip_Thompson · December 2016

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.

It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.

Freggles · December 2016

"These [court cases] are wrong. Both sides need to drop the rhetoric and get around the [Brexit] negotiating table"

Scott_P · December 2016

Freggles said:
"These [court cases] are wrong. Both sides need to drop the rhetoric and get around the [Brexit] negotiating table"

Like

NickPalmer · December 2016

nielh said:
If you voted leave but don't actually want to leave the single market, you clearly made the wrong decision. These court cases need to stop.

Patience! Everyone's entitled to bring any court case they like, just as anyone is entitled to hold any opinion they like - Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit, no Brexit, full union, whatever. There are 70 million of us and we'll have a range of opinions. We just have to live with it, not pointlessly demand that we stop having them. If a case is without merit it will get nowhere.

williamglenn · December 2016

Freggles said:
"These [court cases] are wrong. Both sides need to drop the rhetoric and get around the [Brexit] negotiating table"

Quite. The government has acted in a reckless manner and they should stop this kind of thing from happening again.

IanB2 · December 2016

"I don’t think these plethora of cases isn’t helping the cause"

They are, however, buying some time, which is objectively the remainers' only chance.

Charles · December 2016

MarkHopkins said:

Charles said:
@Philip_Thompson FPT

There was a point in time when we used Oz as a prison camp. As an intrinsic part of the UK legal apparatus (akin to a prison) geography didnt really matter at all

Surely geography did matter, using a prison a long way away was the whole point!

The fact that the UK government could do what it wanted suggests it didn't matter

williamglenn · December 2016

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.

Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.

The_Taxman · December 2016

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.

Is it though? I noticed a poll out today that indicated current opinion amongst Leave voters was that they are NOT willing to take a financial hit for Brexit.

Electorates are never grateful at the best of times. The Brexit coalition of 17 odd million people is already degenerating and would never be able to deliver that number to a sole Conservative Party for instance. Nothing is set in stone and voters can be very fickle. It would not surprise me if the Conservatives got a pounding at the polls in a few years time for Brexit.......

TCPoliticalBetting · December 2016

Adrian Yalland. If any hack reading this website invests just 5 minutes into this.
http://squaremilenews.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/tory-pr-guru-arrested-after.html
Nurse!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/23/equatorial-guinea-africa-corruption-kleptocracy

welshowl · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.

So under that scenario Scotland blocks England and Wales from leaving? What fun. Well the SNP will faint with joy as they get a chance of being kicked from one Union to another.

PeterC · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.

Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.

tpfkar · December 2016

isn't the key point the cost of dithering? Almost 6 months on from the referendum, the Government is 3 months away from starting the process, hasn't given any serious indication about where it's going and still seems to be arguing internally. All this is creating space for the many opponents to cause mischief and potentially put a real spanner in the works; this case is potentially more significant than the Gina Miller case if I've understood right.

We've debated at length the lack of Government preparation for leaving before the referendum - it's continuing to have an effect as it feels the Government is being outmanoeuvred with challenges such as these. Can St Theresa get the momentum back and take control? She's in danger of losing it now.

paulyork64 · December 2016

Euro referendum round 2. Finland v bromley in the x factor final.

williamglenn · December 2016

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.

And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.

welshowl · December 2016

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and do not share the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.

Well the Donald should be good for a bit of spare concrete and wire for a rebuild of Hadrian's wall
;-)

kle4 · December 2016

There's nothing wrong with trying to keep us in the single market (somehow) even after we leave, though I don't think the chances are high for a price we could accept. The likelihood of it happening was certainly mentioned by both sides, but no matter how many times people claim otherwise there is no democratic mandate that says it must happen, although there is more of a case that it should judging by the issues that resonated - but people are told things will happen as a result of voting x or y all the time, and then those things do not happen for all sorts of reasons, so we cannot say definitively that a majority want it. The only part that is not debatable is that we voted leave.

For one thing, having been told that we would have to leave it if we voted leave, you could say that people voted leave in spite of that, not because of it (the opposite might be true, no way to prove it). If it transpires we are able to leave but stay in, an option not pushed much if at all during the campaign, it is possible people would be happy to accept that. I have doubts about that, but it is possible, and that it was not stated to be an option much at the time does the lie that it must happen due to democratic mandate. A line which is being overused by leavers and remainers far beyond that which it can reasonably be extrapolated. Many things were 'made clear' during the campaign, but as we know people had different reasons for voting Leave, and they would prioritise things differently - would the public accept keeping migration out of control in exchange for single market access? I doubt it. But would they accept a half measure? I don't know. Possibly not either.

But given anything can be attacked as against the democratic will at the moment, up to and including proposed negotiating stances which were left in the hands of the government without formal direction by the referendum (presumably for the precise reason so they can have flexibility in seeking things), I find the premise to be absurd and does not stand up to scrutiny.

That said, I would agree legal cases to push this sort of thing doesn't help make it a possibility, in fact the opposite.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2016

SeanT said:
I'm a wised up voter and I certainly didn't vote in the expectation that we'd Leave the Single Market just like that.

I expected my government to negotiate the best Brexit deal possible: if that involves staying in the Single Market, and paying hefty contributions to avoid total Free Movement so be it. Or perhaps Ms May will find a different, bespoke agreement. Who knows.

We voted for Brexit. The legal departure of the UK from the EU, and that is all we voted for. We cannot make windows into the souls of 35 million electors.

But Boris and Gove said we'd be leaving the single market if we voted Leave.

williamglenn · December 2016

kle4 said:
That said, I would agree legal cases to push this sort of thing doesn't help make it a possibility, in fact the opposite.

We need as much political accountability as possible. That means that parliament has to explicitly vote on as many aspects as possible. They shouldn't be able to get away with saying that it's out of their hands. If we're leaving the single market we need to see who has the courage to nod it through the Commons.

SquareRoot · December 2016

Freggles said:
"These [court cases] are wrong. Both sides need to drop the rhetoric and get around the [Brexit] negotiating table"

Southern railways in fact

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.

The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"

Jonathan · December 2016

You create a vacuum. People fill it. Politics 101.

williamglenn · December 2016

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"

And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

Philip_Thompson · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation who's right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Hollyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

Errr no.

Scotland would have been a distinct country had you voted Yes, the fact that you voted no means you are simply a subset of another country.

Sean_F · December 2016

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.

Scotland has no veto over decisions taken by the UK as a whole.

And, I certainly don't apologise for thinking that a successful democracy has no good reason to submerge itself into a federation.

SquareRoot · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

You had a referendum for independence. Remain won. Suck it up. Staying in the Eu is not an option. Scotland is part of the UK and will do what the rest of the UK does. Leave. It gives me no joy, I voted remain, but BREXIT we will have.

madasafish · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

Scotland does not determine the UK's foreign and economic policies.
To suggest it does is ignorant.

Sean_F · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

Scotland is one part of the UK, no more important than any other.

PeterC · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.

Scotland is a distinct nation but it is not a sovereign state. It cannot form or unmake treaties in its own name. Matters EU are reserved to Westminster. In the referendum Scots voted as citizens of the UK in a matter affecting the whole of the UK as an indivisible sovereign state.

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

And you voted to stay in the United Kingdom in 2014, no?

And then 15 months later the question asked was:

"Should the UNITED KINGDOM remain in the EU or leave the EU?"

Speedy · December 2016

Reading this I wish Britain's Foreign Policy was as good and efficient for Britain as Exxon's is for Exxon:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/rex-tillerson-from-a-corporate-oil-sovereign-to-the-state-department

" We’re really thinking about, well, what is it going to be fifteen, twenty years from now, and so what are the conditions in some of these countries likely to be?” The corporation maintains a political-intelligence and analysis department at its headquarters in Irving, Texas, staffed by former government officials, which tries to predict the stability of countries many years into the future by analyzing demographics, employment, political control, and other “fundamentals.”

"a version of the Prime Directive on “Star Trek”: It does not interfere in the politics of host countries. "

"Exxon executives I interviewed spoke about Washington with disdain, if not contempt. They regarded the State Department as generally unhelpful, a bureaucracy of liberal career diplomats who were biased against oil and incompetent when it came to sensitive and complex oil-deal negotiations."

The above is a reminder that companies can be more competent than government bureaucrats, especially in foreign policy.

I changed my mind, Rex Tillerson would be an excellent Secretary of State, I wish we had our own version.

williamglenn · December 2016

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.
Scotland does not determine the UK's foreign and economic policies.
To suggest it does is ignorant.

EU membership is a fundamental part of our domestic constitution, not just a matter of foreign policy.

It should also be remembered that 'the vow' prior to the independence referendum stated that 'the Scottish parliament is permanent'. Overruling Holyrood (if that is what is required) in order to deliver Brexit would not be politically tenable.

madasafish · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.

You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..

williamglenn · December 2016

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..

Whereas vice-versa is perfectly acceptable?

And Sean F says we have a successful democracy...

welshowl · December 2016

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.
Scotland does not determine the UK's foreign and economic policies.
To suggest it does is ignorant.
EU membership is a fundamental part of our domestic constitution, not just a matter of foreign policy.

It should also be remembered that 'the vow' prior to the independence referendum stated that 'the Scottish parliament is permanent'. Overruling Holyrood (if that is what is required) in order to deliver Brexit would not be politically tenable.

It is in England and Wales.

TheWhiteRabbit · December 2016

Le Figaro gives a flavour of the week:

"Valls and Macron speak of revolution, Mélenchon rejoices"

"Vincent Peillon declares candidacy for the primary of the left: former Minister for Education poised to defend Hollande's record"

AnneJGP · December 2016

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
The Scots were asked exactly the same referendum question wot was asked in England, Wales and NI.

"Should the UK [not Scotland] remain in the EU or leave the EU?"
And a clear majority of the Scots voted to remain. Scotland is a distinct nation whose right to self-determination was recognised by the fact that we held an independence referendum as recently as 2014.

In the parliamentary (Westminster and Holyrood) interpretation of the referendum result, this fact should be given strong weight.
Scotland does not determine the UK's foreign and economic policies.
To suggest it does is ignorant.
EU membership is a fundamental part of our domestic constitution, not just a matter of foreign policy.

It should also be remembered that 'the vow' prior to the independence referendum stated that 'the Scottish parliament is permanent'. Overruling Holyrood (if that is what is required) in order to deliver Brexit would not be politically tenable.

So are you saying that if Scotland had voted Leave and England, Wales, NI, & Gib had all voted Remain, Scotland's wishes must overrule?

welshowl · December 2016

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..
Whereas vice-versa is perfectly acceptable?

And Sean F says we have a successful democracy...

8% v 88% ( or thereabouts). So yup it's perfectly acceptable on a unitary matter.

Moses_ · December 2016

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.

Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.

Sean_F · December 2016

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..
Whereas vice-versa is perfectly acceptable?

And Sean F says we have a successful democracy...

In a democracy, the will of the majority prevails. There's nothing special about Scotland.

williamglenn · December 2016

Sean_F said:

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..
Whereas vice-versa is perfectly acceptable?

And Sean F says we have a successful democracy...
In a democracy, the will of the majority prevails. There's nothing special about Scotland.

Would you like to abolish its parliament to put it on a level playing field with England?

TheWhiteRabbit · December 2016

Interesting difference now between Macron (6/1) and Valls (22/1), ultiamtely one needs to land a knockout blow against the other, no obvious reason why one is more likely (although Valls needs to com through his primary).

williamglenn · December 2016

Moses_ said:

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.
Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.

Since we joined in 1973 a pro-EU-membership position has been affirmed in 12 national elections and rejected in 1. I don't think we should take the IRA line on democracy whereby you only need to get lucky once...

Sean_F · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Sean_F said:

williamglenn said:

madasafish said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
You realise that the Supreme Court will NEVER vote to destroy the Union by allowing Scotland to overrule the English..?

Because if they do, the English will decide to get rid of Scotland from the UK..
Whereas vice-versa is perfectly acceptable?

And Sean F says we have a successful democracy...
In a democracy, the will of the majority prevails. There's nothing special about Scotland.
Would you like to abolish its parliament to put it on a level playing field with England?

Ideally, I would.

As a matter of practical politics, that's not possible. But, it has no bearing on the EU Vote.

NickPalmer · December 2016

Romanian Social Democrats canter to re-election though both major parties are noted for a history of corruption. An anti-corruption party seems to have come a decent third. There were some far-right nationalist groups but they don't seem to have got in at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/11/romanias-left-takes-big-lead-in-parliamentary-election-exit-polls

TheWhiteRabbit · December 2016

NickPalmer said:
Romanian Social Democrats canter to re-election though both major parties are noted for a history of corruption. An anti-corruption party seems to have come a decent third. There were some far-right nationalist groups but they don't seem to have got in at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/11/romanias-left-takes-big-lead-in-parliamentary-election-exit-polls

I appreciate your dedication to following Romanian politics!

Sean_F · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Moses_ said:

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.
Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.
Since we joined in 1973 a pro-EU-membership position has been affirmed in 12 national elections and rejected in 1. I don't think we should take the IRA line on democracy whereby you only need to get lucky once...

How many times do we need to vote to leave the EU before you will allow it to happen?

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Moses_ said:

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.
Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.
Since we joined in 1973 a pro-EU-membership position has been affirmed in 12 national elections and rejected in 1. I don't think we should take the IRA line on democracy whereby you only need to get lucky once...

"Should the UNITED KINGDOM remain in the EU or leave the EU?"

ThreeQuidder · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Moses_ said:

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.
Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.
Since we joined in 1973 a pro-EU-membership position has been affirmed in 12 national elections and rejected in 1. I don't think we should take the IRA line on democracy whereby you only need to get lucky once...

That has already been debunked earlier this evening.

AnneJGP · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Moses_ said:

williamglenn said:

PeterC said:

williamglenn said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
It should be emphasised that as of today the UK has not made a decision, in accordance with its constitutional requirements, to leave the EU, and it may never be legally and politically possible to do so.
It will always be legally possible and is almost inevitable that it will happen politically.
Let's revisit that answer when the Supreme Court has spoken, particularly regarding Scotland.
Holyrood may well have the right to express a view on matters EU, but is it not common consent that it has no right of veto over Westminster? How could it when Westminster is the ultimate source of sovereginty? Either way there is remedy: as parliament can enact A50 legislation with a clause that it shall take precedence over any provision of the Scotland Act.
And such measures are why Brexit will lead to the break up of the UK. The English Brexiteers forget that their worldview is not shared by everyone on these islands and we do not all have the same misguided sense of superiority vis-à-vis the continent expressed by Sean F on the previous thread.
Wrong again they do.

The Welsh voted out as well but of course you knew that but to admit it gives your drivel less impact. Not a surprise that Remainers are happy to throw abuse at the English yet consistently ignore the Welsh vote who also voted leave.

Ignoring democratic votes though is what they are very good at.
Since we joined in 1973 a pro-EU-membership position has been affirmed in 12 national elections and rejected in 1. I don't think we should take the IRA line on democracy whereby you only need to get lucky once...

It is a line the present Scottish government is happy to adopt.

welshowl · December 2016

NickPalmer said:
Romanian Social Democrats canter to re-election though both major parties are noted for a history of corruption. An anti-corruption party seems to have come a decent third. There were some far-right nationalist groups but they don't seem to have got in at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/11/romanias-left-takes-big-lead-in-parliamentary-election-exit-polls

"Left takes big lead in Romania" - thought it was spelled Remania :-)

Casino_Royale · December 2016

There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

https://twitter.com/casinoroyalepb/status/808070256870694913

Speedy · December 2016

@Sunil_Prasannan

I know you like trains and train stations:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/807820681920598016

TheScreamingEagles · December 2016

“Sadly I feel the hand of prudence on my shoulder. At this time, I can’t provide you with additional money”.

Boris Johnson turns down Tony Blair’s bid for extra resources as his total bill hits taxpayer for almost £3m a year

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2377016/boris-johnson-turns-down-tony-blairs-bid-for-extra-resources-as-his-total-bill-hits-taxpayer-for-almost-3m-a-year/

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

Speedy said:
@Sunil_Prasannan

I know you like trains and train stations:

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/807820681920598016

I really want to the Friday morning-only 0922 Stockport to Stalybridge (strictly speaking only Stockport to Guide Bridge is the actual "ghost" route).

Scrapheap_as_was · December 2016

Lads, it's Tottenham / English cricketers.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.

I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.

Big_G_NorthWales · December 2016

Brexit on this forum is now so polarised with each side making their same arguments ad infinitum and it is set to to go on for months and years.

The danger is that many will yawn and stray away for piece of mind. No one can have any idea how it will work out and there are any more important things in life than to be constantly arguing

williamglenn · December 2016

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.

Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.

tyson · December 2016

Actually the line that Farage was sent to us by Christ is helluva alot more plausible than the rest of the religious bollox contained in religious text....... Not to offend Catholics, it is more plausible than Mary wasn't shagged for instance, marginally, but a little bit more....

IanB2 · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.

You have almost the entire English coastline to choose from. Why go to central London if you are going to be offended by the views of the locals?

Casino_Royale · December 2016

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.

I hope it is. But have no idea how to make hay with it.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.

Yaaaaaaaawwwn.

MP_SE · December 2016

Nicky Morgan really is an idiot.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/808073067817738240

NickPalmer · December 2016

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.

Yeah, seems unreasonable. A general problem in both the UK and US is that the usual level of tolerance to other views seems seriously eroded. The "never kissed a Tory" badges were always a joke (few people under 40 nowadays wait to investigate politics before snogging), but I do know people on both sides of the Brexit issue (and in America on both sides of the election) who have real trouble maintaining old friendships with people who voted the other way.

Sure, I reserve the right to continue to support efforts to stay in, or return, or leave in a way that's hard to tell the difference. I expect that to be tolerated as my democratic right to an opinion. But I wouldn't dream of being rude to a Brexiter, and I don't see what Ronnie's think they're getting out of it.

isam · December 2016

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SeanT said:
I'm a wised up voter and I certainly didn't vote in the expectation that we'd Leave the Single Market just like that.

I expected my government to negotiate the best Brexit deal possible: if that involves staying in the Single Market, and paying hefty contributions to avoid total Free Movement so be it. Or perhaps Ms May will find a different, bespoke agreement. Who knows.

We voted for Brexit. The legal departure of the UK from the EU, and that is all we voted for. We cannot make windows into the souls of 35 million electors.
But Boris and Gove said we'd be leaving the single market if we voted Leave.
Who gives a F what anyone said, apart from the voters. And all we know is that the voters were asked: Do you want to Leave the EU. and the British people said Yes. And that's it.

It is very arguable that the referendum should have been more precise. Should have asked more direct questions about the "kind" of Brexit we would get. Should have offered explicit alternatives between Hard and Soft and None.

But it didn't. It said do you want to LEAVE, and we agreed, and now it's the government's job to get the best LEAVE possible, up to and including staying in the Single Market. And we will give our verdict on the government's performance at the next election.

Exactly... and if we elect a government that says it will take us back in (assuming we have left by then) so be it

Philip_Thompson · December 2016

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.

I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.

This is a public club, not a private one. I don't want to live in a country where only patrons who share the proprietors views are made to feel welcome in their establishments. For me jazz transcends all forms of politics, or at least it should: it's a unifier, not a divider.

You shouldn't be supporting further polarisation.

Essexit · December 2016

IanB2 said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.
You have almost the entire English coastline to choose from. Why go to central London if you are going to be offended by the views of the locals?

Maybe he wanted to enjoy jazz without having politics rammed down his throat?

We've come to a sad state of affairs if one's politics should be expected to limit where one can watch people playing the trumpet.

Sunil_Prasannan · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Isn't that a bit of an overreaction? There are plenty of establishments where you can find a 'safe space' for your views on Brexit - a Tyneside Working Men's Club perhaps.

"At last, you know what it means to hate! Now you're ready to be a king!"

Casino_Royale · December 2016

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I hope it is. But have no idea how to make hay with it.
I do.

Thanks.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.

That's exactly what it says, though. It says the vote to Leave was a direct attack on Ronnie Scott's.

I'm a regular-ish patron of Ronnie Scott's, a big jazz fan, and a Leave voter. So he's making it very clear to me that I'm no longer welcome.

Of course, he can say what he wants. I think he's very foolish and ill-advised to do so, and if I can raise awareness about his contempt for patrons who don't share his view, I will.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

NickPalmer said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Yeah, seems unreasonable. A general problem in both the UK and US is that the usual level of tolerance to other views seems seriously eroded. The "never kissed a Tory" badges were always a joke (few people under 40 nowadays wait to investigate politics before snogging), but I do know people on both sides of the Brexit issue (and in America on both sides of the election) who have real trouble maintaining old friendships with people who voted the other way.

Sure, I reserve the right to continue to support efforts to stay in, or return, or leave in a way that's hard to tell the difference. I expect that to be tolerated as my democratic right to an opinion. But I wouldn't dream of being rude to a Brexiter, and I don't see what Ronnie's think they're getting out of it.

Thanks Nick. I appreciate that.

I said to my wife that, even if I ran a club as a Leaver, frequented largely by Leavers or Leave-sympathisers, I wouldn't dream imposing my political views on a captive audience in my club magazine, yet alone being that rude and impolite to the opposing side, particularly when I knew some of them might be my customers.

And I wouldn't.

Ok, I vent on here, and sometimes I overstep the mark, but we're all grown-ups and friends, and this is a social and recreational passion of ours in which we all share a common interest.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2016

Scrapheap_as_was said:
Lads, it's Tottenham / English cricketers.

Re the fantasy football, I told you last week form is temporary and class is permanent.

williamglenn · December 2016

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.
That's exactly what it says, though. It says the vote to Leave was a direct attack on Ronnie Scott's.

I'm a regular-ish patron of Ronnie Scott's, a big jazz fan, and a Leave voter. So he's making it very clear to me that I'm no longer welcome.

Of course, he can say what he wants. I think he's very foolish and ill-advised to do so, and if I can raise awareness about his contempt for patrons who don't share his view, I will.

Many people and institutions that you care for will be negatively affected by Brexit.

It's their right to say so and no-one has any special right not to be offended by having uncomfortable facts or opinions brought to their attention.

nunu · December 2016

Moses_ said:
OT

I think if this just turns out to be correct then we have just crossed the rubicon.......

Two girls of just SEVEN blow themselves up in a suicide bomb attack at a market in Nigeria

Pair blew themselves up in Boko Haram stronghold of Borno state in Nigeria
Girls killed themselves and one other person, while 18 people were left injured
Boko Haram believed to be behind attack but have not yet taken responsibility

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4022264/Girls-aged-7-8-stage-suicide-attack-Nigeria.html#ixzz4SZ6yUwoI

That group have been using young girls as suicide bombers for a long time haven't they? They are often kidnapped from their families. Sickening.

williamglenn · December 2016

SeanT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.
"Pandering to the Brexit crew" seems like a direct, patronising insult aimed at 17m Leave voters.

To be fair, the claim that Amber Rudd was pandering to Brexit voters was probably the most factually correct part of the whole piece.

HYUFD · December 2016

The thing is, while May is not aiming to keep full single market membership, it is clear she wants to keep some access to the single market. That is the reason why it has been briefed she wants to use a job offer to control EU migration rather than a points system and why it has been stated the UK can still maintain contributions to the EU budget

Casino_Royale · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.
That's exactly what it says, though. It says the vote to Leave was a direct attack on Ronnie Scott's.

I'm a regular-ish patron of Ronnie Scott's, a big jazz fan, and a Leave voter. So he's making it very clear to me that I'm no longer welcome.

Of course, he can say what he wants. I think he's very foolish and ill-advised to do so, and if I can raise awareness about his contempt for patrons who don't share his view, I will.
Many people and institutions that you care for will be negatively affected by Brexit.

It's their right to say so and no-one has any special right not to be offended by having uncomfortable facts or opinions brought to their attention.

Businesses and business leaders are perfectly welcome to lobby ministers, or express their concerns, even in a personal capacity.

It is quite another thing to rant hotheadedly to your own customers, with the implicit assumption that they will, or should, agree with you.

I'd have thought even you would have perspective and objectivity to acknowledge that the tone and content of that editorial - by the Managing Director of the club - was crass, and designed to be deliberately offensive to those he didn't agree with, and didn't much like either.

Ronnie Scott's is a London institution that dates back decades. At the very least, you must concede this is reckless.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

SeanT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.
"Pandering to the Brexit crew" seems like a direct, patronising insult aimed at 17m Leave voters. If I read that leaflet in a club where I was spending my money, I would rip it up, throw the paper scraps in the faces of the the barmen, and walk out.

For sure, Ronnie Scott's MD is free to say whatever he likes within the law. "I hate vegetarians", "America is dreary", "most women can't drive properly", but then he is free to read the consequences in his yearly accounts when customers take offence.

I note Allison Pearson is a follower of Ronnie Scott's.

williamglenn · December 2016

Casino_Royale said:
Ronnie Scott's is a London institution that dates back decades. At the very least, you must concede this is reckless.

Surely this can't be the first time when you've had parts of the entertainment business making false assumptions about what right thinking people should believe? Having such views rammed down your throat is part of the experience. You seem overly touchy about this.

AnneJGP · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:

SeanT said:

Casino_Royale said:
There is no escaping Brexit.

I tried to treat my wife this weekend to an evening at her favourite Jazz Club in Soho (we are both fans) - of course, Ronnie Scotts.

What we got instead in the club magazine was a full-page editorial by the MD, Simon Cooke, insulting Leave voters, and making it clear we're not welcome.

It ends with an insulting limerick. Seems like he ran a competition..

Also a rather illiterate letter - "winner entry" - and a truly, truly shit limerick.
I complained to the maître d', with a polite but firm piece of feedback, but so was furious I almost walked out the club.

My wife convinced me not to spoil her evening.

But I am still fuming. Even now.
Actually, it would make a nice tabloid story, in the Sun or the Mail.

Let's see how Ronnie Scott's reacts when this is taken up in the press.
I'm sorry but I don't see the big deal. There's an attack on Brexit yes but any organisation is free to say what it wants on that. I don't see an attack on Brexit voters. There's no deplorables line there that I saw.
That's exactly what it says, though. It says the vote to Leave was a direct attack on Ronnie Scott's.

I'm a regular-ish patron of Ronnie Scott's, a big jazz fan, and a Leave voter. So he's making it very clear to me that I'm no longer welcome.

Of course, he can say what he wants. I think he's very foolish and ill-advised to do so, and if I can raise awareness about his contempt for patrons who don't share his view, I will.
Many people and institutions that you care for will be negatively affected by Brexit.

It's their right to say so and no-one has any special right not to be offended by having uncomfortable facts or opinions brought to their attention.

Out here in the sticks, I don't recall anyone ever mentioning the result of the referendum, except on the few occasions when I myself have made some mild remark. Exactly the same as when the government changes after a GE, for example.

It's accorded the same status as any other political decision: decision made, let them get on with it while we get on with our lives.

Casino_Royale · December 2016

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:
Ronnie Scott's is a London institution that dates back decades. At the very least, you must concede this is reckless.
Surely this can't be the first time when you've had parts of the entertainment business making false assumptions about what right thinking people should believe? Having such views rammed down your throat is part of the experience. You seem overly touchy about this.

When I'm paying my own money to patronise their establishment, I don't expect to be outright insulted as a reward for my business in the introduction to the evening's entertainment, no. I go there to relax, forget the world, get away from it all, and to be dreamily lost in the jazz. That's sort of the whole point of it.

If he was writing in a personal capacity in the Guardian, that might be different. Where, when and how you do it is so important.

isam · December 2016

Casino_Royale said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:
Ronnie Scott's is a London institution that dates back decades. At the very least, you must concede this is reckless.
Surely this can't be the first time when you've had parts of the entertainment business making false assumptions about what right thinking people should believe? Having such views rammed down your throat is part of the experience. You seem overly touchy about this.
When I'm paying my own money to patronise their establishment, I don't expect to be outright insulted as a reward for my business in the introduction to the evening's entertainment, no. I go there to relax, forget the world, get away from it all, and to be dreamily lost in the jazz. That's sort of the whole point of it.

If he was writing in a personal capacity in the Guardian, that might be different. Where, when and how you do it is so important.

These musos are all the same! You can't even go to a local festival ft has been one hit wonders nowadays without brexit being stuffed down your throat

http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/21/bob-geldof-fans-storm-out-of-gig-after-he-verbally-attacks-them-for-wearing-primark-clothes-6021043/

Scott_P · December 2016

https://twitter.com/mike_blackley/status/808087290035765249

Dadge · December 2016

"The only positive I can draw from these cases is that it helps enrich the legal profession." What a pathetic complaint. Lawyers stand to make a mint from Brexit anyway, and you complain about citizens attempting to assert a role for themselves in the Brexit process, because this will involve lawyers? Bizarre.

isam · December 2016

Away from Brexit, some Sunday night philosophy... (poss Planet Earth 2 inspired)

In the last 125 years or so, since we have discovered that we are cousins of animals, humans seem to be trying to distance themselves from the innate behaviours that non human animals perform... bit weird?

foxinsoxuk · December 2016

tyson said:
Actually the line that Farage was sent to us by Christ is helluva alot more plausible than the rest of the religious bollox contained in religious text....... Not to offend Catholics, it is more plausible than Mary wasn't shagged for instance, marginally, but a little bit more....

If we are to interpret the Good Book literally rather than allegorically, the Good Lord flooded the world sparing only Noah and his family, then brought plages of locusts, frogs, blood and deaths of first-born to Egypt,

He definitely has mellowed a bit with his current plague of Kippers, fruitcakes and Brexiteers. Indeed we seem to have got off quite lightly.

TheScreamingEagles · December 2016

Dadge said:
"The only positive I can draw from these cases is that it helps enrich the legal profession." What a pathetic complaint. Lawyers stand to make a mint from Brexit anyway, and you complain about citizens attempting to assert a role for themselves in the Brexit process, because this will involve lawyers? Bizarre.

Read it again.

It ain't a complaint.

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