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Brexit: Sir John Major says 'perfectly credible' case for second referendum https://t.co/TsTpGa4JYU
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First?0
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Second like Zac
The British 'democracy' has never had tyranny of the majority only because its broken voting system grants the tyranny to a minority, Mr Major.0 -
EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.0
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The narrow 52:48 split in the referendum should mean the softest Leave available. Major is right.0
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Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
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Did Major mean to call them the bastards, just like when he had a slim majority.. Was it a tyranny of the majority when he lost the election in 1992?
Its all bullshine. Remain lost.. get over it. I have.
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Morning all.
John Major has accepted the UK will not remain a full member of the EU but hopes the country will stay close to rump EU and the single market. – Seems reasonable, panic over.0 -
On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
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What would his two choices be in a second referendum, the government deal vs WTO? I doubt that Major would put such a question to the people.AlastairMeeks said:
Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
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IMaxPB said:
And you wonder why many think you're a traitor.YellowSubmarine said:If Tony Blair and John Major want to do something useful re Brexit they should both take the peerages they are entitled to pronto. If the Supreme Court upholds the Crown Prerogative ruling we'll need their votes in the Lords. And the Lords would appreciate a bit of former prime ministerial star dust. I think Gordon is less suited to the Lords but it would add to the sense of drama and occassion if he went with them.
Even hardcore remoAners are not traitors, even if they suggested just ignoring the referendum rather than trying to get a rerun. That's legal, if politically inadvisable and socially provocative. And the whole success of the Brexit vote is the idea if you lose once you're allowed to keep trying anyway, be it soon after or decades after. Pushing for a rerun or an ignoring of the referendum is many things and I fail to see much appetite or true justification for it, but it isn't traitorous, even if one thinks it is insulting and idiotic.
I get why many fellow brexiteers find such remoaning talk frustrating, even insulting, particularly if they still fear the result may be prevented, but that is still improbable, and regardless, people are allowed to ignore the expressed will of the people of they want. MPs might not get a say anyway, but even if they do, and they were to ignore, they'd face the consequences and brexiteers could also keep pushing.
Is tgat a scenario I want to see? No, but it isn't traitorous.
A strong case for that, I think, though the prospects are dimming, and in the phony warboeriod we've seen plenty declare anything other than their preferred version of Brexit would be a betrayal. My preferred version or one accommodating the 48 not relevant to the hardest of the cores. The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.logical_song said:The narrow 52:48 split in the referendum should mean the softest Leave available.
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That is what he is suggesting I think.MaxPB said:
What would his two choices be in a second referendum, the government deal vs WTO? I doubt that Major would put such a question to the people.AlastairMeeks said:
Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
The guardian report says:
"Major said he accepted the UK would not remain a full member of the EU but hoped the Brexit deal would enable the country to stay as close as possible to the other 27 members and the single market"0 -
Just to repeat my comment at the end of the last thread. If Tony Blair and John Major want to do something useful about Brexit they should take the peerages they are entitled to pronto. If the Supreme Court upholds the Crown Prerogative ruling we'll need their votes and their gravitas in the Lords. Given both have ensued it for years it could be spun as a statement like move emphasising the gravity of the situation. Of course Gordon could take his peerage as well though he's a more recent PM and less electorally sucessful. Blair and Major balance each other nicely. Too soon I think for a Cameron intervention not to backfire. Though that may change around the referendum anniversary if the situation continues to deteriorate.
One other suggestion is a ruse for the SNP. They've a principled position on not taking any peerages. Now that resignations from the Lords are allowed this could be a face saver. They could now say they'll accept the substantial number of peerages they are entitled to but will resign the lot once the A50 and ECA repeal bills are done. It would be a way of bending not breaking their pledge. If they could be persuaded to do it it would appeal to Salmond and Sturgeon's sense of mischief as well as their core strategy of achieving independence by provoking the English to leave the union first.
Two or three ex PM's being elevated alongside a new SNP group would throw a hand grenade into the Lords and provide much needed soft Brexit votes. Of course May could just refuse to nominate them. But that would be almost as much fun politically.0 -
I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the majority" when he was part of the majority.
For that matter I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the minority" when he was part of the minority that controlled the country.
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On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
Seems to me that next year May will be the longest serving PM of the major European countries.
The post Merkel age will be about retrenchment in Europe. No more extension to the borders of Middle East and Russia, no more rigid adherence to the four freedoms (which haven't been that rigid given Cyprus' capital controls).
Europe 3.0 will be about staying together in spite of the contradictions within the EU. And probably trying to keep the various economies afloat despite too many internal contradictions.0 -
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
Sadly not. Soft Brexit may be a tool idea for many, but many regard it as almost as big a betrayal as staying in. Others have their own reasons for thinking we should not go for soft Brexit of course.SimonStClare said:Morning all.
John Major has accepted the UK will not remain a full member of the EU but hopes the country will stay close to rump EU and the single market. – Seems reasonable, panic over.
Remain lost, that doesn't mean the battle for the aftermath is over. If remain had won woukd brexiteers have had to stop fighting if it was decided to join the euro, go whole hog on federalising? No.SquareRoot said:Did Major mean to call them the bastards, just like when he had a slim majority.. Was it a tyranny of the majority when he lost the election in 1992?
Its all bullshine. Remain lost.. get over it. I have.
If people want to fight over Brexit types, that's very legitimate. I think hard will win politically and as a more popular version personally.0 -
FPT
If posting in an online forum constitutes "getting in your way" it really doesn't bode well for when the tough negotiations actually start.Mortimer said:
I don't really understand this 'your mess sort it out' mentality amongst Remoaners.Bromptonaut said:
Like second homeowners in Wales, leavers have come home to a stinking mackerel pushed through the letterbox and don't know what to do with it.Mortimer said:YellowSubmarine said:If Tony Blair and John Major want to do something useful re Brexit they should both take the peerages they are entitled to pronto. If the Supreme Court upholds the Crown Prerogative ruling we'll need their votes in the Lords. And the Lords would appreciate a bit of former prime ministerial star dust. I think Gordon is less suited to the Lords but it would add to the sense of drama and occassion if he went with them.
The disrespect this shows for the will of the people is bewildering.YellowSubmarine said:If Tony Blair and John Major want to do something useful re Brexit they should both take the peerages they are entitled to pronto. If the Supreme Court upholds the Crown Prerogative ruling we'll need their votes in the Lords. And the Lords would appreciate a bit of former prime ministerial star dust. I think Gordon is less suited to the Lords but it would add to the sense of drama and occassion if he went with them.
Remainers seem to have come out of the shadows in recent days. Not about delaying is it now, it is about overturning.
If this shows up elements of the metropolitan elite for what they really are, all the better. We're leaving, and at this rate the bunch of anti democrats left in the wake will be devastated electorally for a generation or two.
For a start, not a mess. Secondly, get out of our way then. We're trying to follow the will of the people. Frustrating that and then sneering about it doesn't really suggest a high degree of either logical thought or acceptance of the democratic process.0 -
Actually John Major does support the "tyranny of the majority" as long as that is the tyranny of the majority OF THE ESTABLISHMENT.another_richard said:I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the majority" when he was part of the majority.
For that matter I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the minority" when he was part of the minority that controlled the country.
What is so hated by Major - and Blair and Branson etc - is when a majority of the plebs are overruling the wishes of a majority of the establishment.
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What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o0 -
Exactly. All a second referendum (accept deal/reject deal) does is give the electorate the opportunity to veto any TM deal and choose hard Brexit.rkrkrk said:On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
It would not say go back and renegotiate because it would be too late by whenever the referendum would be held.
I am not 100% sure that is what the likes of Major, Clegg, etc had in mind.0 -
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
I see the failed Major and his establishment ilk pushing hard to overturn a democratic decision by those who had the temerity to challenge the natural order of things. I see EU bureaucrats and politicians who tried to portray themselves once as the UK's internationalist friends choosing to further their own political ends (rather than the interests of the remaining EU) by making life as difficult as possible for an independent UK, to the detriment of their own economies rather than ours. The only tyranny that I see here is that of a political and establishment elite opposed to the concept of direct democracy.
So let's get on with it and leave, and be rid of the lot of them.
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Seeking to shut down discussion by stating "Remain lost, get over it" does not really do justice to the situation we find ourselves in. It is now clear that both sides of the debate during the referendum knowingly told a series of lies in order to sway the vote their way. What you consider to be an irrevocable decision was actually made on the back of profound dishonesty.SquareRoot said:Did Major mean to call them the bastards, just like when he had a slim majority.. Was it a tyranny of the majority when he lost the election in 1992?
Its all bullshine. Remain lost.. get over it. I have.
Armed with further information, the British people have every right to change their minds if they so wish. And to do it at any time.
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Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
You've gone full-on mental this morning. Accusing those with different views of being traitors, advocating expatriation of those with different views and demonstrating an inability to read simple English sentences.MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
What Major, Clegg etc have in mind is a second referendum rejecting Brexit and the UK then defaulting back to EverCloserUnion.TOPPING said:
Exactly. All a second referendum (accept deal/reject deal) does is give the electorate the opportunity to veto any TM deal and choose hard Brexit.rkrkrk said:On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
It would not say go back and renegotiate because it would be too late by whenever the referendum would be held.
I am not 100% sure that is what the likes of Major, Clegg, etc had in mind.
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Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
The guardian article suggests that is what Major has in mind since it says he accepts we will leave EU. He then hopes that May will negotiate a deal which preserves lots of single market... and presumably then makes compromises on freedom of movement/budgetary contributions etc.TOPPING said:
Exactly. All a second referendum (accept deal/reject deal) does is give the electorate the opportunity to veto any TM deal and choose hard Brexit.rkrkrk said:On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
It would not say go back and renegotiate because it would be too late by whenever the referendum would be held.
I am not 100% sure that is what the likes of Major, Clegg, etc had in mind.
The tricky thing is if TM is keen to negotiate a deal very close to hard Brexit... then there is essentially no choice.0 -
Or Nigel Farage!rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
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Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
If they don't go voluntarily should they be deported?MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.
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We clearly must leave as that is what the people have voted for. The nature of the departure wasn't on the ballot though, and it seems reasonable to offer a choice of Departure A or Departure B at some point after A50 is triggered. If choice A is so close to the EU as being tantamount to staying in then fair dinkum - it's a choice that will succeed or fail in the ballot box. Politically I think would be unwise to offer A or B as the absolute extremes of softest imaginable vs hardest imaginable - the people will not choose the softest option. A 'what TM can negotiate' vs 'WTO fallback absent any agreement' would be fine.0
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Wulfrun_Phil said:
I see the failed Major and his establishment ilk pushing hard to overturn a democratic decision by those who had the temerity to challenge the natural order of things. I see EU bureaucrats and politicians who tried to portray themselves once as the UK's internationalist friends choosing to further their own political ends (rather than the interests of the remaining EU) by making life as difficult as possible for an independent UK, to the detriment of their own economies rather than ours. The only tyranny that I see here is that of a political and establishment elite opposed to the concept of direct democracy.
So let's get on with it and leave, and be rid of the lot of them.
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Repurpose the Eurostar!SouthamObserver said:
If they don't go voluntarily should they be deported?MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
Theresa may is keen to keep her job. She is a prisoner of the Tory right. Thus, to keep her job she will negotiate a deal that will cause significant hardship to many millions of UK citizens.rkrkrk said:
The guardian article suggests that is what Major has in mind since it says he accepts we will leave EU. He then hopes that May will negotiate a deal which preserves lots of single market... and presumably then makes compromises on freedom of movement/budgetary contributions etc.TOPPING said:
Exactly. All a second referendum (accept deal/reject deal) does is give the electorate the opportunity to veto any TM deal and choose hard Brexit.rkrkrk said:On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
It would not say go back and renegotiate because it would be too late by whenever the referendum would be held.
I am not 100% sure that is what the likes of Major, Clegg, etc had in mind.
The tricky thing is if TM is keen to negotiate a deal very close to hard Brexit... then there is essentially no choice.
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Morning all
How do majorities become tyrannies ?
The obvious answer is when the result is all that matters and when supporting a view or a Party becomes akin to supporting a football team. The inability to accept even for a nanosecond the other side (the opponent, the opposition) might have something valid to say and more importantly your side might not be wholly correct is part of the check and balance democratic societies need.
The anonymity of the Internet (and other media) allows a) a greater degree of partisanship because, within the laws of libel and slander, it's a bear pit and b) it's easier to end up in your own echo chamber and all that does is re-enforce your own views rather than challenging them.
It also derives from the notion of "accepting the result". Democracy means you are sometimes (or if you are a Lib Dem) often on the wrong side of the result. It's one thing to accept the result but that doesn't invalidate your viewpoint. I've often defined a majority as "the largest number of people wrong about any given subject at any given time" but that doesn't mean I think I am somehow "right". It's not about right or wrong, good or evil, City or United, red or blue, black or white - the EU Referendum was about shades of grey as we are now discovering.
Opinions change and perspectives change with time - we now assume Brexit and the election of Donald Trump are ground breaking neo-revolutionary moments. In 20 years, that's how they may seem or they may seem entirely trivial. I don't know.0 -
And this relates to the concepts of fairness in British society.another_richard said:
Actually John Major does support the "tyranny of the majority" as long as that is the tyranny of the majority OF THE ESTABLISHMENT.another_richard said:I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the majority" when he was part of the majority.
For that matter I don't recall John Major complaining about the "tyranny of the minority" when he was part of the minority that controlled the country.
What is so hated by Major - and Blair and Branson etc - is when a majority of the plebs are overruling the wishes of a majority of the establishment.
It is vital that everyone has the opportunity to win, to prosper, to achieve.
But it is equally important that the possibility of failure and defeat exist - that nobody is guaranteed to get their own way permanently and at the expense of others.
What we are seeing from some parts of the establishment is a refusal to accept that, a refusal to accept that their wishes are not always paramount.0 -
Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...0 -
While I think any lies cancelled each other out, and I don't think people have or will change their minds, your last sentence is entirely correct. I don't think it will happen and I'm not at that point myself, but the people are allowed to change their view if the situation changes, it's absurd to suggest we are locked in to anything forevermore.SouthamObserver said:
Seeking to shut down discussion by stating "Remain lost, get over it" does not really do justice to the situation we find ourselves in. It is now clear that both sides of the debate during the referendum knowingly told a series of lies in order to sway the vote their way. What you consider to be an irrevocable decision was actually made on the back of profound dishonesty.SquareRoot said:Did Major mean to call them the bastards, just like when he had a slim majority.. Was it a tyranny of the majority when he lost the election in 1992?
Its all bullshine. Remain lost.. get over it. I have.
Armed with further information, the British people have every right to change their minds if they so wish. And to do it at any time.
Fear of our vote, my vote, being ignored has led to some bizarre views, like you cannot revisit subjects, referenda are binding in law rather than effect even though the law says otherwise, and no one should be able to challenge the government over its own interpretations of its powers. Going '52-48' in response to remoAners, even if we think them wrong, ignores the complexities and can include unforeseen implications, such as saying we are not allowed to reconsider (which is what is meant when saying people are traitors fir suggesting it).
Let's keep working for Brexit, and overcome those who think we need to revisit it, not try to shout them down. If they will have no traction with the public, the public will take care of them directly.
Good day All.
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But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
She's powerful, but enough of the others want to be obstructive, she may be disappointed too.rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
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Presumably he wants the 48% to have a say over/block a too hard deal. But no referendum could deliver that.rkrkrk said:
The guardian article suggests that is what Major has in mind since it says he accepts we will leave EU. He then hopes that May will negotiate a deal which preserves lots of single market... and presumably then makes compromises on freedom of movement/budgetary contributions etc.TOPPING said:
Exactly. All a second referendum (accept deal/reject deal) does is give the electorate the opportunity to veto any TM deal and choose hard Brexit.rkrkrk said:On topic- it does feel as though Brexit is breaking down traditional party divides, perhaps in the way that the likes of Peter Hitchens have long argued for.
The second referendum idea has been tainted a bit by the notion that it is a device to keep Britain in the EU. But if the two options were:
1) Whatever compromise deal TM comes out with
2) Total Leave, WTO rules, completely out of single market, complete control over immigration, no contribution to EU budget etc...
Then presumably that would be an acceptable second referendum to Brexiteers?
I think it's hard to argue that this would be subverting the original referendum result since both options mean leaving the EU.
It would not say go back and renegotiate because it would be too late by whenever the referendum would be held.
I am not 100% sure that is what the likes of Major, Clegg, etc had in mind.
The tricky thing is if TM is keen to negotiate a deal very close to hard Brexit... then there is essentially no choice.
If it is a hard deal then a referendum would only be able to ask:
1) negotiated hard deal; or
2) no deal = WTO = hard Brexit0 -
Why only two choices - a preferendum.MaxPB said:
What would his two choices be in a second referendum, the government deal vs WTO? I doubt that Major would put such a question to the people.AlastairMeeks said:
Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
0 -
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
MaxPB is Donald TrumpMaxPB said:
Repurpose the Eurostar!SouthamObserver said:
If they don't go voluntarily should they be deported?MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
But the same is true for France, Scandinavian countries, the Netherlands, Austria and Ireland. All of whom we have strong trading relationships with and all of whom are massive net contributors who will be asked to pay a lot more if our £11bn (€70bn over the spending cycle) was no longer being paid in.kle4 said:
She's powerful, but enough of the others want to be obstructive, she may be disappointed too.rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
Good for Sir John. If the Brexiteers think we're going to give up saving them from their own gullibility and stupidity then they need to think again.0
-
This kind of increasingly defensive bluster from some leavers appears to be a reaction to the difficulty of (instead discussing) the hard choices now facing the country.AlastairMeeks said:
You've gone full-on mental this morning. Accusing those with different views of being traitors, advocating expatriation of those with different views and demonstrating an inability to read simple English sentences.MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
I don't think lies cancel themselves out. It's just that some are more believed than others. Both sides lied incessantly during the referendum, one side managed to persuade more people that it was telling the truth.kle4 said:
While I think any lies cancelled each other out, and I don't think people have or will change their minds, your last sentence is entirely correct. I don't think it will happen and I'm not at that point myself, but the people are allowed to change their view if the situation changes, it's absurd to suggest we are locked in to anything forevermore.SouthamObserver said:
Seeking to shut down discussion by stating "Remain lost, get over it" does not really do justice to the situation we find ourselves in. It is now clear that both sides of the debate during the referendum knowingly told a series of lies in order to sway the vote their way. What you consider to be an irrevocable decision was actually made on the back of profound dishonesty.SquareRoot said:Did Major mean to call them the bastards, just like when he had a slim majority.. Was it a tyranny of the majority when he lost the election in 1992?
Its all bullshine. Remain lost.. get over it. I have.
Armed with further information, the British people have every right to change their minds if they so wish. And to do it at any time.
Fear of our vote, my vote, being ignored has led to some bizarre views, like you cannot revisit subjects, referenda are binding in law rather than effect even though the law says otherwise, and no one should be able to challenge the government over its own interpretations of its powers. Going '52-48' in response to remoAners, even if we think them wrong, ignores the complexities and can include unforeseen implications, such as saying we are not allowed to reconsider (which is what is meant when saying people are traitors fir suggesting it).
Let's keep working for Brexit, and overcome those who think we need to revisit it, not try to shout them down. If they will have no traction with the public, the public will take care of them directly.
Good day All.
I agree that there is a decent Brexit deal to be done. It's one that involves remaining as much a part of the single market as possible. The problem is that it is a deal which Theresa May - so fixated on remaining PM - cannot do because she is terrified of the Tory right.
0 -
It really depends on what the government negotiate, it could be anywhere between £20bn and £100bn right now.TOPPING said:
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
There's only going to be one deal on the table after the negotiations. A referendum between that deal and no deal is certainly possible (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015), but would also be silly (cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015).rkrkrk said:
That is what he is suggesting I think.MaxPB said:
What would his two choices be in a second referendum, the government deal vs WTO? I doubt that Major would put such a question to the people.AlastairMeeks said:
Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
The guardian report says:
"Major said he accepted the UK would not remain a full member of the EU but hoped the Brexit deal would enable the country to stay as close as possible to the other 27 members and the single market"0 -
But Germans have a reputation for long-term thinking. Most would understand the need to put up with some short-term pain in the form of job losses and increased taxes in exchange for assuring the long-term stability of the EU and the trade benefits that ensue for Germany.rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
Robert Kimbell
LibDem councillors in Liverpool:
63 2003
60 2004
57 2006
53 2007
46 2008
33 2010
22 2011
9 2012
4 20160 -
And yet they chose to join the Euro. Economics is clearly harder than rocket science - or else the Germans might be quite good at it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
... Germans ...understand the need .... for assuring the long-term stability of the EU ...rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
0 -
I suppose my point is that the diminution in wealth forecast pre-Jun 23 is now taking shape.MaxPB said:
It really depends on what the government negotiate, it could be anywhere between £20bn and £100bn right now.TOPPING said:
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
Brexiters always claimed this as a price worth paying. I wondered whether, now that this abstract concept is becoming real and will affect real people (the poorest, most likely), any Brexiters were revising their view to any extent.
Seems you not.0 -
I struggle with terms like "establishment" or "liberal metropolitan elite" that are banded out by the Mail and by some on here.another_richard said:
And this relates to the concepts of fairness in British society.
It is vital that everyone has the opportunity to win, to prosper, to achieve.
But it is equally important that the possibility of failure and defeat exist - that nobody is guaranteed to get their own way permanently and at the expense of others.
What we are seeing from some parts of the establishment is a refusal to accept that, a refusal to accept that their wishes are not always paramount.
Who are they ? I've never met any of them. If we define an "Establishment" as a group of people enjoying a monopoly of power in perpetuity, then the whole democratic exercise is a façade. Fair enough.
One could argue in 1997 after 18 years of single party rule, there was a democratic revolution which ousted one Establishment and brought in another and that is the nature of all revolutions - American, French, Russian even back to the Norman Conquest if you want - the replacement of one power bloc by another.
Those who claim they want to overthrow "the Establishment" often just want their turn at the top - it's the truth of most revolutions.
0 -
I can foresee turkey becoming more and.more a problem. Dictator in charge, opposition "powers" led by an exiled Islamic extremist. 100,000s been purges from their jobs. It is the classic recipe for disaster.PlatoSaid said:Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...0 -
Establishment = People I do not likestodge said:
I struggle with terms like "establishment" or "liberal metropolitan elite" that are banded out by the Mail and by some on here.another_richard said:
And this relates to the concepts of fairness in British society.
It is vital that everyone has the opportunity to win, to prosper, to achieve.
But it is equally important that the possibility of failure and defeat exist - that nobody is guaranteed to get their own way permanently and at the expense of others.
What we are seeing from some parts of the establishment is a refusal to accept that, a refusal to accept that their wishes are not always paramount.
Who are they ? I've never met any of them. If we define an "Establishment" as a group of people enjoying a monopoly of power in perpetuity, then the whole democratic exercise is a façade. Fair enough.
One could argue in 1997 after 18 years of single party rule, there was a democratic revolution which ousted one Establishment and brought in another and that is the nature of all revolutions - American, French, Russian even back to the Norman Conquest if you want - the replacement of one power bloc by another.
Those who claim they want to overthrow "the Establishment" often just want their turn at the top - it's the truth of most revolutions.
0 -
Some Brexiters claimed that. Others claimed there would be no diminution.TOPPING said:
I suppose my point is that the diminution in wealth forecast pre-Jun 23 is now taking shape.MaxPB said:
It really depends on what the government negotiate, it could be anywhere between £20bn and £100bn right now.TOPPING said:
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
Brexiters always claimed this as a price worth paying. I wondered whether, now that this abstract concept is becoming real and will affect real people (the poorest, most likely), any Brexiters were revising their view to any extent.
Seems you not.
Those leading all the various leave and Remain campaigns were never going to be materially affected by whatever the outcome was.
0 -
Meet the new bossstodge said:
I struggle with terms like "establishment" or "liberal metropolitan elite" that are banded out by the Mail and by some on here.another_richard said:
And this relates to the concepts of fairness in British society.
It is vital that everyone has the opportunity to win, to prosper, to achieve.
But it is equally important that the possibility of failure and defeat exist - that nobody is guaranteed to get their own way permanently and at the expense of others.
What we are seeing from some parts of the establishment is a refusal to accept that, a refusal to accept that their wishes are not always paramount.
Who are they ? I've never met any of them. If we define an "Establishment" as a group of people enjoying a monopoly of power in perpetuity, then the whole democratic exercise is a façade. Fair enough.
One could argue in 1997 after 18 years of single party rule, there was a democratic revolution which ousted one Establishment and brought in another and that is the nature of all revolutions - American, French, Russian even back to the Norman Conquest if you want - the replacement of one power bloc by another.
Those who claim they want to overthrow "the Establishment" often just want their turn at the top - it's the truth of most revolutions.
Same as the old boss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYMD_W_r3Fg
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And they are just about to join the EU!FrancisUrquhart said:
I can foresee turkey becoming more and.more a problem. Dictator in charge, opposition "powers" led by an exiled Islamic extremist. 100,000s been purges from their jobs. It is the classic recipe for disaster.PlatoSaid said:Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...
0 -
I think Europhobe smelly pants is now the statistically approved term?AlastairMeeks said:
Europhobe can't read.MaxPB said:EUphile says we should stay in the EU. Wow.
0 -
We have forecasts that say there might be, nothing else right now. The evidence is that jobs are still growing, the low paid are getting a 4.2% payrise and October tax receipts were massively up YoY, and YTD tax receipts are up 4.5%.TOPPING said:
I suppose my point is that the diminution in wealth forecast pre-Jun 23 is now taking shape.MaxPB said:
It really depends on what the government negotiate, it could be anywhere between £20bn and £100bn right now.TOPPING said:
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
Brexiters always claimed this as a price worth paying. I wondered whether, now that this abstract concept is becoming real and will affect real people (the poorest, most likely), any Brexiters were revising their view to any extent.
Seems you not.0 -
It's so much easier to break things than to construct them.IanB2 said:
This kind of increasingly defensive bluster from some leavers appears to be a reaction to the difficulty of (instead discussing) the hard choices now facing the country.AlastairMeeks said:
You've gone full-on mental this morning. Accusing those with different views of being traitors, advocating expatriation of those with different views and demonstrating an inability to read simple English sentences.MaxPB said:On the subject of how the campaigning has changed. I would say that it is now "stay out' vs "rejoin". If the EUphiles want a second referendum on membership then that is what should be put to the people once we have left.
Really though, it would be easier if the 5% of EUphiles left for Belgium, since they love the artificial EU so much they can go and live in a artificial country.0 -
And yet people on here are oblivious to one of the main reasons Erdogan's been able to do what's he doing: the war in Syria, the consequent failure of the Solution Process with the Kurds, and the pressure caring for millions of refugees has caused on the country.FrancisUrquhart said:
I can foresee turkey becoming more and.more a problem. Dictator in charge, opposition "powers" led by an exiled Islamic extremist. 100,000s been purges from their jobs. It is the classic recipe for disaster.PlatoSaid said:Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...
BTW, I'm not sure you can class Gulen as an "Islamic extremist". Having said that, I still haven't been able to put my finger on *what* he is.0 -
Morning,SouthamObserver said:
And they are just about to join the EU!FrancisUrquhart said:
I can foresee turkey becoming more and.more a problem. Dictator in charge, opposition "powers" led by an exiled Islamic extremist. 100,000s been purges from their jobs. It is the classic recipe for disaster.PlatoSaid said:Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...
Even if they aren't, the perception they might will add to LePen's chances of victory as will every terrorist attack between now and May.0 -
Dunno, Farage seems to be well on the way to being very much materially affected for the better by the outcome, albeit on the coattails of another populist spasm.SouthamObserver said:
Some Brexiters claimed that. Others claimed there would be no diminution.TOPPING said:
I suppose my point is that the diminution in wealth forecast pre-Jun 23 is now taking shape.MaxPB said:
It really depends on what the government negotiate, it could be anywhere between £20bn and £100bn right now.TOPPING said:
And the cost?MaxPB said:
Yes. I think the AS was an exercise in expectations management. Ideal Brexit (for me) is leaving the political EU and keeping the economic EU. I believe the AS put a few pieces on the board to enable that. As for the IFS, since Paul Johnson joined I pay a lot less attention to anything they say.TOPPING said:
Max if you were 10/10 happy with Brexit before, given recent developments, the AS, IFS, deficit target change, etc are you still at a 10?MaxPB said:
Yes, the constant posting of inanities from EU functionaries is what has begun to grate the most. If the political leaders of the main contributor nations decide that the UK can have equivalence to single market status for all trade as long as we pay up €6bn per year (which we can take out of DfID's budget) then that is what will happen.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
Brexiters always claimed this as a price worth paying. I wondered whether, now that this abstract concept is becoming real and will affect real people (the poorest, most likely), any Brexiters were revising their view to any extent.
Seems you not.
Those leading all the various leave and Remain campaigns were never going to be materially affected by whatever the outcome was.0 -
Which is why the EU suspended their membership accession. They obviously saw how much of an issue it was in the referendum and now don't want the French election to have the same focus. The downside might be another 20k migrants per week crossing into Greece though.rottenborough said:
Morning,SouthamObserver said:
And they are just about to join the EU!FrancisUrquhart said:
I can foresee turkey becoming more and.more a problem. Dictator in charge, opposition "powers" led by an exiled Islamic extremist. 100,000s been purges from their jobs. It is the classic recipe for disaster.PlatoSaid said:Jon Howarth
#BREAKING: #Turkey President Erdogan threatens to open borders to migrants after EU Parliament vote. More to come...
Even if they aren't, the perception they might will add to LePen's chances of victory as will every terrorist attack between now and May.0 -
F1 - P1 ticking along nicely, the only drama a puncture for Kvyat in the Toro Rosso. I'd forgotten how quiet these new cars are though, the GP2 cars are louder!0
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Hope you enjoy yourself. I'm a little bit jealous ...Sandpit said:F1 - P1 ticking along nicely, the only drama a puncture for Kvyat in the Toro Rosso. I'd forgotten how quiet these new cars are though, the GP2 cars are louder!
0 -
Is it just me? Or can anyone else starting to smell genuine panic from Leavers that this going to go wrong and be taken away from them? Every economic prediction is jumped on and denounced as rubbish and doom glooming from the elite who want us to remain. Each day the jumping gets harder as the panic sets in that this will, after all, be an economic disaster.
The Daily Mail are busy attacking IFS this morning for saying wages have stagnated.
This would be true EU or not.0 -
This is a great photo by Jeff Mitchell, Sir John in perfect focus with Tony Blair extremely soft, but not completely bokehed out. It tells a tale.0
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Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
I suspect there is quite a rich vein of fear that the one chance in 40 years we've been offered to be listened to is potentially being taken away again.rottenborough said:Is it just me? Or can anyone else starting to smell genuine panic from Leavers that this going to go wrong and be taken away from them? Every economic prediction is jumped on and denounced as rubbish and doom glooming from the elite who want us to remain. Each day the jumping gets harder as the panic sets in that this will, after all, be an economic disaster.
The Daily Mail are busy attacking IFS this morning for saying wages have stagnated.
This would be true EU or not.
The real learning for me is that we have a failing unwritten constitution. How was it allowed to get this far? How was it possible to ratify Maastricht and then Lisbon without plebiscites? We've been the slowly boiled frog for an age and are making a final leap towards a more direct democracy. I suppose in every country politicians try to rule rather than serve - that is what constitutions are for. Ours, or rather our lack of one, seems to be looking very threadbare these days.
0 -
The coverage of the Autumn Statement has been very odd in that respect. We're five months on from the vote and so far the only bit of the OBR's growth forecast for this and the next few years has proved to be (slightly) wrong. Just not wrong in the way that was expected.rottenborough said:This would be true EU or not.
0 -
I'm expecting the Mail to denounce the 16m or so who voted to Remain as traitors. I'd say to all the Leavers here that they should do so too. Or I would, if they weren't all spineless - not one of them has pointed out that Thomas Mair didn't get a fair trial.rottenborough said:Is it just me? Or can anyone else starting to smell genuine panic from Leavers that this going to go wrong and be taken away from them? Every economic prediction is jumped on and denounced as rubbish and doom glooming from the elite who want us to remain. Each day the jumping gets harder as the panic sets in that this will, after all, be an economic disaster.
The Daily Mail are busy attacking IFS this morning for saying wages have stagnated.
This would be true EU or not.
0 -
Although given Germany is about the only country in the developed world to have employment at an all time high, and wages at an all time high, it's hard not to conclude they've done OK from the euro.Patrick said:
And yet they chose to join the Euro. Economics is clearly harder than rocket science - or else the Germans might be quite good at it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
... Germans ...understand the need .... for assuring the long-term stability of the EU ...rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
The Germans have done fantastically from the Euro! At the expense of the rest of the EU. They're an export driven economy free riding on the blended exchange rate of all the EZ countries. The pain of this is felt in eg Spain and Italy who simply have the wrong exchange rate . This would be fine if the people of Spain and Italy were OK with the hollowing out of their industrial base and utterly dreadful unemployment stats and if the Germans were happy to accept that they must fund the garlic zone's deficit. The fundamental dilemma of the Euro remains unsorted.rcs1000 said:
Although given Germany is about the only country in the developed world to have employment at an all time high, and wages at an all time high, it's hard not to conclude they've done OK from the euro.Patrick said:
And yet they chose to join the Euro. Economics is clearly harder than rocket science - or else the Germans might be quite good at it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
... Germans ...understand the need .... for assuring the long-term stability of the EU ...rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.
0 -
Lol!MaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
Heart was in the right place I guess.Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
Quantitative easing Windfall cash only good enough for bankers eh, @Charles ?MaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
Tories under Thatcher planned to scrap NHS
"The document stamped "secret" was called, in keeping with films and books of that era, "The Omega Project".
Civil servants noted that "for the majority it would represent the abolition of the NHS".
But in spite of what was described as the nearest thing to a Cabinet riot in the history of the Thatcher administration, the prime minister secretly pressed ahead with the plans - before later backing down."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-381010200 -
Who cares what Thatcher wanted? I am incapable of being inspired or scared by reports of Thatcher. And half the population assumed it anyway.logical_song said:Tories under Thatcher planned to scrap NHS
"The document stamped "secret" was called, in keeping with films and books of that era, "The Omega Project".
Civil servants noted that "for the majority it would represent the abolition of the NHS".
But in spite of what was described as the nearest thing to a Cabinet riot in the history of the Thatcher administration, the prime minister secretly pressed ahead with the plans - before later backing down."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-381010200 -
Louise Mensch in her habitually thoughtful way has lifted that particular burden from them.Innocent_Abroad said:Or I would, if they weren't all spineless - not one of them has pointed out that Thomas Mair didn't get a fair trial.
0 -
The irony is that British politicians would have wanted to lock us in at too *high* an exchange rate to impose market discipline and crush inflation or some other misunderstood monetarist dogma.Patrick said:
The Germans have done fantastically from the Euro! At the expense of the rest of the EU. They're an export driven economy free riding on the blended exchange rate of all the EZ countries. The pain of this is felt in eg Spain and Italy who simply have the wrong exchange rate . This would be fine if the people of Spain and Italy were OK with the hollowing out of their industrial base and utterly dreadful unemployment stats and if the Germans were happy to accept that they must fund the garlic zone's deficit. The fundamental dilemma of the Euro remains unsorted.rcs1000 said:
Although given Germany is about the only country in the developed world to have employment at an all time high, and wages at an all time high, it's hard not to conclude they've done OK from the euro.Patrick said:
And yet they chose to join the Euro. Economics is clearly harder than rocket science - or else the Germans might be quite good at it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
... Germans ...understand the need .... for assuring the long-term stability of the EU ...rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
Windfall cash is not good for anyone: bankers or villagers.Pulpstar said:
Quantitative easing Windfall cash only good enough for bankers eh, @Charles ?MaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.
That Spanish village story has all the makings of a good novel: whether it ends up as whimsy or tragedy or success, who can say.
0 -
My, but it's frequently unpleasant on here these days. (Not aimed at anyone in particular, just my impressions having read this thread, which is admittedly on almost as inflammatory a topic as possible).0
-
The underlying problem is that a non-binary decision (i.e. not just "should be be in the eU?" but "should we prioritise immigration controls over market access?" and a host of subsidiary issues like fishing and agriculture) has been subsumed into a binary referendum. I don't think Remainers can reasonably argue that we shouldn't try to produce an optimal Leaving package, but it's so hard to predict what will be in it that it's reasonable to expect and indication of priorities to be approved by Parliament and a further decision to be made (whether by election or referendum or at least a free Parliamentary vote) when the terms of the package are eventually known. The likelihood of it only being an interim package doesn't make that any easier, but it's still true.rottenborough said:Is it just me? Or can anyone else starting to smell genuine panic from Leavers that this going to go wrong and be taken away from them? Every economic prediction is jumped on and denounced as rubbish and doom glooming from the elite who want us to remain. Each day the jumping gets harder as the panic sets in that this will, after all, be an economic disaster.
The Daily Mail are busy attacking IFS this morning for saying wages have stagnated.
This would be true EU or not.0 -
Spanish GDP is growing very strongly and has been for 2 years now . Unemployment is steadily falling too . Italy is a different matter .Patrick said:
The Germans have done fantastically from the Euro! At the expense of the rest of the EU. They're an export driven economy free riding on the blended exchange rate of all the EZ countries. The pain of this is felt in eg Spain and Italy who simply have the wrong exchange rate . This would be fine if the people of Spain and Italy were OK with the hollowing out of their industrial base and utterly dreadful unemployment stats and if the Germans were happy to accept that they must fund the garlic zone's deficit. The fundamental dilemma of the Euro remains unsorted.rcs1000 said:
Although given Germany is about the only country in the developed world to have employment at an all time high, and wages at an all time high, it's hard not to conclude they've done OK from the euro.Patrick said:
And yet they chose to join the Euro. Economics is clearly harder than rocket science - or else the Germans might be quite good at it.FeersumEnjineeya said:
... Germans ...understand the need .... for assuring the long-term stability of the EU ...rcs1000 said:
But it's the priority of the Chancellor of Germany to avoid losing jobs in Bavaria, and having to raise taxes to pay an additional EU contribution.kle4 said:
Granted, I'm interpreting the mood music. But past history shows the general approach of the eu is to prioritise stopping contagion, as it sees it, over even considering addressing larger problems, and if some of them are truculent, that stymies the rest regardless. I'm hopeful a reasonable accommodation can be made, but politically there will be little appetite in many places.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't it depend on who you listen to? The Swedes have said they are perfectly amenable to a close accommodation with the UK, as have the Germans. Macron said similar when I met him earlier this year.kle4 said:The Europe also seems to have decided stopping contagion is preferable to mutual accommodation, their usual approach, and may seems to see anything but hardish Brexit as too difficult to achieve.
I think we have a tendency to take comments by EU functionaries and minor continental politicians and take them as if they were Holy writ, when they are just personal opinions. It'd be a little like a French newspaper quoting Nick Clegg ("former Deputy PM Nick Clegg") and giving the impression he spoke for all Brits.0 -
I didn't follow the trial in the slightest - what was unfair about it, if I may ask?Innocent_Abroad said:
I'm expecting the Mail to denounce the 16m or so who voted to Remain as traitors. I'd say to all the Leavers here that they should do so too. Or I would, if they weren't all spineless - not one of them has pointed out that Thomas Mair didn't get a fair trial.rottenborough said:Is it just me? Or can anyone else starting to smell genuine panic from Leavers that this going to go wrong and be taken away from them? Every economic prediction is jumped on and denounced as rubbish and doom glooming from the elite who want us to remain. Each day the jumping gets harder as the panic sets in that this will, after all, be an economic disaster.
The Daily Mail are busy attacking IFS this morning for saying wages have stagnated.
This would be true EU or not.0 -
Those of us who predicted the establishment would tell us to vote again if we got the "wrong" answer cant help but laugh0
-
Less than a month ago even. People will calm the f*ck down eventually.Cyclefree said:
Windfall cash is not good for anyone: bankers or villagers.Pulpstar said:
Quantitative easing Windfall cash only good enough for bankers eh, @Charles ?MaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.
That Spanish village story has all the makings of a good novel: whether it ends up as whimsy or tragedy or success, who can say.0 -
Emmigration hits record high as inhabitant desert failing village of the bright lights of BarcelonaMaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
It's amazing the village is still there. That part of Spain has so many abandoned ones. It's a very harsh, unforgiving part of the world in which to live, and so remote. I'd bet the real beneficiaries of the money will be the families of the inhabitants - almost all of whom will be long gone and living in towns and cities far away.Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.
0 -
It's not good for anyone, even bankerPulpstar said:
Quantitative easing Windfall cash only good enough for bankers eh, @Charles ?MaxPB said:
"Record inflation hits Spanish village"Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.
Edit : I see @Cyclefree agrees which is usually a good indication that I'm right. But this story ends up as tragedy. How many lottery jackpot winners make a good go of it?
0 -
The story, as reported by the Telegraph is a little vague, not sure whether the £169m was bequeathed to the town to be used on redevelopment and charitable projects, or to the individual 80 inhabitants. - I suspect the former is the more likely, but not quite as ‘news worthy’. The Town could certainly use the money IMO, it was a dump when Antonino Fernández left to make his fortune in Mexico and little has changed since then looking at google.kle4 said:
Heart was in the right place I guess.Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0 -
But apparently it's better that those living there should stay there: we wouldn't want it to "fail" :-)SouthamObserver said:
It's amazing the village is still there. That part of Spain has so many abandoned ones. It's a very harsh, unforgiving part of the world in which to live, and so remote. I'd bet the real beneficiaries of the money will be the families of the inhabitants - almost all of whom will be long gone and living in towns and cities far away.Charles said:
Don't think that's a good thing.PlatoSaid said:What a windfall
Telegraph
The founder of Corona has left £2 million to every single resident of the impoverished Spanish village he grew up in
https://t.co/ZlgoZGhT2o
Get that within a decade the village will have ceased to exist in anywhere near its current form.0
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