Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Free movement now appears to be at the heart of Brexit negotia

2456

Comments

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    For a bit of fun I designed a game. Nothing to do with the EU or politics.

    It only works on a phone or a tablet, as you need to be able to touch the screen.

    http://flexit.nojam.com/


    It works on both Android and Apple :-)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Essexit said:

    It's depressing that some people like Remainers follow Apple like a cult and convince themselves that no headphone jack and shattertastic screens are just great.
    There's nowt wrong wit' gramophone.....

    (Apart from when jogging.)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,854
    RobD said:

    I think the price has gone up here in the US too, but maybe not by as much.
    In the UK they simultaneously put the price of the old models UP while releasing the new models at a still higher price point. Completely taking the piss.
  • Half of Galaxy Note 7 Owners will switch to iPhone, survey finds

    http://www.redsn0w.us/2016/10/half-of-galaxy-note-7-owners-will.html?m=1I'm
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    In the UK they simultaneously put the price of the old models UP while releasing the new models at a still higher price point. Completely taking the piss.
    Hah! Maybe second hand is the way to go?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,411
    SeanT said:

    Yes, this is what amazed me. Did the people who designed the new Apple MacBook not talk to the people who designed the new Apple iPhone???

    That's a seriously dysfunctional company.

    I'm gonna try the new Google Pixel, it's apparently just like an iPhone, but it has a headphone jack.
    Do not buy the Google Pixel.

    Buy the OnePlus 3. Essentially the same phone. Half the price.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    There's nowt wrong wit' gramophone.....

    (Apart from when jogging.)
    The tape deck in my car works perfectly well.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Half of Galaxy Note 7 Owners will switch to iPhone, survey finds

    http://www.redsn0w.us/2016/10/half-of-galaxy-note-7-owners-will.html?m=1I'm

    I assume the other half will be dead? :D

    Awful for Samsung, every time I go to the airport there's an announcement saying that they are banned, even in checked luggage.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    The Orgreave decision represents a great victory for the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party! Herman Goering would have been so proud of Amber Rudd, and been confident that she would have found good reasons not to launch an enquiry into the opening of concentration camps in 1933.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,351
    Cyclefree said:

    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say both sides were as bad as each other, and the police were certainly heavily provoked, but I expect some were spoiling for a fight as well and took the opportunity.

    Some.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    justin124 said:

    The Orgreave decision represents a great victory for the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party! Herman Goering would have been so proud of Amber Rudd, and been confident that she would have found good reasons not to launch an enquiry into the opening of concentration camps in 1933.

    Top trolling.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Cyclefree said:

    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.

    Absolutely correct.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Cyclefree said:

    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.

    Precisely - but the judiciary at the time threw out the cases so nobody was actually convicted of riot. To hold a public enquiry at huge expense, when there is no real outcome to change (no officers left in job to fire, no convictions to overturn), would not really be in the public interest.

    While it might be seen as a travesty of justice that any were prosecuted, the judges at the time dealt with that issue.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2016
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37822559

    Post-brexit we'll be building one of these every week.

    It's gonna be great.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    Half of Galaxy Note 7 Owners will switch to iPhone, survey finds

    http://www.redsn0w.us/2016/10/half-of-galaxy-note-7-owners-will.html?m=1I'm

    I'll remember that 24 is considered the minimum sub sample size to be able to publicly post conclusions about on pb in the future.

    Thanks for the heads up.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    Every household had a 3.5" floppy

    My phone connects Bluetooth to the devices I use for playback and calls.

    It's like MAGIC !

    The only thing I plug into it is a charger.
    Scott_P said:

    Every household had a 3.5" floppy

    My phone connects Bluetooth to the devices I use for playback and calls.

    It's like MAGIC !

    The only thing I plug into it is a charger.
    Yes but not everyone has a Bluetooth hi-fi, at their homes, so if you are visiting you can't play your music (assuming it is wanted!). Nor is Bluetooth as good quality as cabled music.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    rcs1000 said:

    Do not buy the Google Pixel.

    Buy the OnePlus 3. Essentially the same phone. Half the price.
    Bought a one plus x - 2 months, already in the bin. Update made the earpiece so quiet as to be inaudible. Gone back to my old Sony. Sad, because in every other way it was a good piece of kit.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Cyclefree said:

    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.

    That is all true. The question for now however is what is there that could be learned from an inquiry other than that some officers - now all retired - were at best over-zealous and at worst bent? As you say, none were convicted so it's not as if there's an injustice to right (particularly given that the whole picket was illegal).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Pong said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37822559

    Post-brexit we'll be building one of these every week.

    It's gonna be great.

    Gonna build it SO big !
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,854
    In one sense Apple's ridiculous pricing is an unavoidable part of their business model. They can't risk getting too much market share because then they would risk getting broken up or forced to allow other manufacturers to make devices with their operating systems.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,716
    rcs1000 said:

    Do not buy the Google Pixel.

    Buy the OnePlus 3. Essentially the same phone. Half the price.
    Does it get proper security updates? As far as I can tell the only Android phones available that are adequately patched are the Google ones.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    Touchscreens are witchcraft.

    Mr. E, there seems an endless appetite to rake over the past.

    Were the scum who dropped concrete blocks off a bridge, killing a 'scab' going to work, ever caught and prosecuted? [ it was before my time so I've heard the story but not the outcome].
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    TonyE said:

    Precisely - but the judiciary at the time threw out the cases so nobody was actually convicted of riot. To hold a public enquiry at huge expense, when there is no real outcome to change (no officers left in job to fire, no convictions to overturn), would not really be in the public interest.

    While it might be seen as a travesty of justice that any were prosecuted, the judges at the time dealt with that issue.
    But there almost certainly will be an Inquiry at some stage even if it does take a further 10 years to launch it. Even a minority non-Tory Govt will see to that . It will remain a festering sore that does great discredit to our police force and system of justice.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Cyclefree said:

    Wasn't the issue at Orgreave less how the miners and the police behaved (the miners were no angels, after all) and more the evidence which the police gave in the various cases they brought against arrested miners on riot charges?

    I think that not one of those charged was ever convicted because the police evidence was deemed to be so unreliable.

    Whatever you may think of the antics of the NUM and Scargill and the violent behavior of some miners, the police making up or embroidering evidence is a disgrace. This goes to the heart of our justice system. There was far too much of this going on within too many police forces during the 70's and 80's (the West Midlands police force was notorious for its behavior in many cases, not just the Birmingham 6, for instance).

    Support for law and order is fine and desirable. Support for the police when they are themselves lawbreakers is not.

    Agree with that but it's well over 30 years ago, and so I think it's largely irrelevant to police culture today. There have been a great number of police corruption cases since then, and [I believe] they've helped hugely improve the service from the situation you describe.

    The rozzers are far from perfect - and they never will be, that's just unrealistic - but raking Orgreave over at vast expense to provide no discernible benefit is self-indulgent codswallop.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    Pulpstar said:

    Gonna build it SO big !
    Am convinced the BBC included the price tag deliberately.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Pulpstar said:

    Gonna build it SO big !
    And only waiting 12 years for approval. We'll have had 10 years of Brexit by then....
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited October 2016

    Touchscreens are witchcraft.

    Mr. E, there seems an endless appetite to rake over the past.

    Were the scum who dropped concrete blocks off a bridge, killing a 'scab' going to work, ever caught and prosecuted? [ it was before my time so I've heard the story but not the outcome].


    Convicted of Manslaughter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Wilkie
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    Mr. Hopkins, cheers. Always wondered about that.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Battleground States - Survey monkey - Samples - below - All 26-30 Oct

    TX - Clinton 44 .. Trump 46 - 1,940
    MN - Clinton 47 .. Trump 38 - 639
    NV - Clinton 43 .. Trump 43 - 887
    AZ - Clinton 43 .. Trump 43 - 1,342
    CO - Clinton 44 .. Trump 39 - 1,417
    GA - Clinton 44 .. Trump 46 - 2,517
    SC - Clinton 42 .. Trump 46 - 1,769
    OH - Clinton 41 .. Trump 44 - 1,585
    VA - Clinton 48 .. Trump 39 - 2,005
    NH - Clinton 48 .. Trump 39 - 633
    FL - Clinton 46 .. Trump 45 - 2,634
    NC - Clinton 47 .. Trump 43 - 1.383
    IA - Clinton 40 .. Trump 45 - 905
    PA - Clinton 49 .. Trump 41 - 2,108
    UT - Clinton 30 .. Trump 33 .. McMullin 26 - 988

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/elections/map?poll=sm-lv-cps
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    That is all true. The question for now however is what is there that could be learned from an inquiry other than that some officers - now all retired - were at best over-zealous and at worst bent? As you say, none were convicted so it's not as if there's an injustice to right (particularly given that the whole picket was illegal).
    But if police officers were over zealous and bent they deserve to be punished - some quite severely!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    TonyE said:

    Precisely - but the judiciary at the time threw out the cases so nobody was actually convicted of riot. To hold a public enquiry at huge expense, when there is no real outcome to change (no officers left in job to fire, no convictions to overturn), would not really be in the public interest.

    While it might be seen as a travesty of justice that any were prosecuted, the judges at the time dealt with that issue.
    Yes. True. The individual cases were thrown out.

    But that does not really deal with the issue of how it came about that a culture developed in a police force where such behavior happened. This was not one or two officers. This was many of them, all of whom thought that (a) they could/should do this; and (b) presumably thought they could/would get away with it.

    A police force in which a significant number of officers is willing to ignore the law is not a police force worthy of the name. Was Orgreave a one-off? Or did this attitude obtain in other cases? And how can anyone be certain that it has not endured? After all, if there are no adverse consequences for misbehaving why wouldn't it endure? Why wouldn't it be passed on to new recruits as "the way we do things round here"?

    It may not make sense to have an inquiry into Orgreave for the reasons which the Home Secretary has set out. But ensuring that the police force - in that region and elsewhere - has the right culture to such important matters as telling the truth to a court is, IMO, a pretty important part of the Home Secretary's job. It's not as if we haven't seen misbehavior by police forces since the mid-1980's.

  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    justin124 said:

    But there almost certainly will be an Inquiry at some stage even if it does take a further 10 years to launch it. Even a minority non-Tory Govt will see to that . It will remain a festering sore that does great discredit to our police force and system of justice.
    And the further away we get, the less sensible that becomes. We know what happened at Orgreave - two opposing armies lined up for a pre planned battle, and consequently had one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Jobabob said:

    Yes but not everyone has a Bluetooth hi-fi, at their homes, so if you are visiting you can't play your music (assuming it is wanted!). Nor is Bluetooth as good quality as cabled music.
    Quality of music produced has been thrown overboard in the name of convenience. Everything is now predicated on Bluetooth. If you go to John Lewis stores, they no longer sell anything that actually plays CDs....

    It is not exactly a forward move in the history of music.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    TGOHF said:

    Except 96 people died there. The only death at Orgreave was the miners dream that they could overthrow a government by law breaking.
    It was teh death knell of loads of small towns and villages. Workers beaten by police following political orders, it is every bit as important as Hillsborough and as big if not bigger cover up.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2016


    Convicted of Manslughter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Wilkie
    They were MI5 - there are plently of reports that they never arrived at any prison despite the conviction. All smoke and mirrors.

    [Not really, I just miss Tapestry. Maybe Lucky can back me up instead? EDIT: I see malcolmg rode in just before me with the tin foil tam o shanter.]
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    JackW said:

    Battleground States - Survey monkey - Samples - below - All 26-30 Oct

    TX - Clinton 44 .. Trump 46 - 1,940
    MN - Clinton 47 .. Trump 38 - 639
    NV - Clinton 43 .. Trump 43 - 887
    AZ - Clinton 43 .. Trump 43 - 1,342
    CO - Clinton 44 .. Trump 39 - 1,417
    GA - Clinton 44 .. Trump 46 - 2,517
    SC - Clinton 42 .. Trump 46 - 1,769
    OH - Clinton 41 .. Trump 44 - 1,585
    VA - Clinton 48 .. Trump 39 - 2,005
    NH - Clinton 48 .. Trump 39 - 633
    FL - Clinton 46 .. Trump 45 - 2,634
    NC - Clinton 47 .. Trump 43 - 1.383
    IA - Clinton 40 .. Trump 45 - 905
    PA - Clinton 49 .. Trump 41 - 2,108
    UT - Clinton 30 .. Trump 33 .. McMullin 26 - 988

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/elections/map?poll=sm-lv-cps

    Not good enough for Trump. TX worryingly close for him.
  • Pong said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-37822559

    Post-brexit we'll be building one of these every week.

    It's gonna be great.

    Make Wales grate again.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,411
    TonyE said:

    Bought a one plus x - 2 months, already in the bin. Update made the earpiece so quiet as to be inaudible. Gone back to my old Sony. Sad, because in every other way it was a good piece of kit.
    I have owned over a 100 mobile phones. The OnePlus 3 is a mile better than any other I've ever owned. I swapped a Samsung Galaxy S7 for it, so it wasn't like I was coming from a cheap phone.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    That is all true. The question for now however is what is there that could be learned from an inquiry other than that some officers - now all retired - were at best over-zealous and at worst bent? As you say, none were convicted so it's not as if there's an injustice to right (particularly given that the whole picket was illegal).
    See my later answer. How does a culture develop within the police force which allows/condones/encourages police officers to be bent? How does one stop or mitigate this? Are we now doing enough? What else could we / should we do?

    Those are all matters which could be usefully looked at.

    Raking over the events of one day is pointless not least because it seems to me that some of those calling for it simply want to use it to (a) turn the miners into innocent victims; and (b) tar the Tories again with the muck from old battles rather than learn useful lessons for now and the future.

    But that doesn't mean that there aren't useful lessons to be learned about how to keep public servants honest. A Parliamentary Commission on standards within the police (similar to the Commission on Banking Standards, which produced a very fine report and some useful changes) might be one way to go.

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    And only waiting 12 years for approval. We'll have had 10 years of Brexit by then....
    Given the sheer number of new hospitals that we're going to build, it probably makes sense to set up a streamlined approval process.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    TonyE said:

    And the further away we get, the less sensible that becomes. We know what happened at Orgreave - two opposing armies lined up for a pre planned battle, and consequently had one.
    Rudd's decision has added a further dimension to the issue. It now smells of political and establishment cover up and evokes memories of recent paedophilia scandals etc. It will certainly not go away now!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,854
    RobD said:

    Not good enough for Trump. TX worryingly close for him.
    I suspect there will be a decisive swing one way or the other before polling day. If Trump ends up coming home comfortably in Nevada and Arizona he'll probably take Colorado too. On this poll he's further behind in NH than PA yet other polling has him ahead. If he takes both states and Florida his 'path' looks pretty wide.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    justin124 said:

    But if police officers were over zealous and bent they deserve to be punished - some quite severely!
    If it can be proven that a particular (former) officer was involved in criminal misconduct, then yes. But I very much doubt that at this remove it could be.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Pong said:

    Given the sheer number of new hospitals that we're going to build, it probably makes sense to set up a streamlined approval process.
    You're right. One a week at that price. I suspect some will end up on green belt land which will cause some people to campaign against themselves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited October 2016

    Quality of music produced has been thrown overboard in the name of convenience. Everything is now predicated on Bluetooth. If you go to John Lewis stores, they no longer sell anything that actually plays CDs....

    It is not exactly a forward move in the history of music.
    They are getting there slowly with Bluetooth audio. The best bose & sennheiser Bluetooth models are very good, but you are paying £300+ for the privilege. The cheap Bluetooth headphones are shit, where as you can get sub £100 wired headphones which are very good.

    Apples airpod offerings are shit.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    TonyE said:

    And the further away we get, the less sensible that becomes. We know what happened at Orgreave - two opposing armies lined up for a pre planned battle, and consequently had one.
    I don't think so , the police laid an ambush , had the mounted police in droves hidden and then goaded eth miners so they could be charged and beaten up. Makes Pinochets boys look like angels, no wonder the Tories protected him.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Cyclefree said:

    Yes. True. The individual cases were thrown out.

    But that does not really deal with the issue of how it came about that a culture developed in a police force where such behavior happened. This was not one or two officers. This was many of them, all of whom thought that (a) they could/should do this; and (b) presumably thought they could/would get away with it.

    A police force in which a significant number of officers is willing to ignore the law is not a police force worthy of the name. Was Orgreave a one-off? Or did this attitude obtain in other cases? And how can anyone be certain that it has not endured? After all, if there are no adverse consequences for misbehaving why wouldn't it endure? Why wouldn't it be passed on to new recruits as "the way we do things round here"?

    It may not make sense to have an inquiry into Orgreave for the reasons which the Home Secretary has set out. But ensuring that the police force - in that region and elsewhere - has the right culture to such important matters as telling the truth to a court is, IMO, a pretty important part of the Home Secretary's job. It's not as if we haven't seen misbehavior by police forces since the mid-1980's.

    Of more relevance would be an inquiry into S Yorks Police's current handling of the Rotherham sex abuse scandal (and other related / parallel cases).
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    justin124 said:

    The Orgreave decision represents a great victory for the Arbeit Macht Frei wing of the Tory party! Herman Goering would have been so proud of Amber Rudd, and been confident that she would have found good reasons not to launch an enquiry into the opening of concentration camps in 1933.

    Oh dear - outrage bus alert!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    As for these events being too distant in time, I believe that the police are currently engaged in investigating allegations made against a former Bishop of Chichester relating to events of the early 1950s. The Bishop concerned died in 1958!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Pulpstar said:

    I'll remember that 24 is considered the minimum sub sample size to be able to publicly post conclusions about on pb in the future.

    Thanks for the heads up.
    :) - Oh dear TSE 3/10 go back to poll [Grammar] school.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    "Instead, three-quarters of people — including eight out of ten Leave and Ukip supporters — see Brexit as the opportunity to get the balance right, to have more choice and control over who comes to Britain while still keeping the immigration that is good for our economy and society."

    An article for the FT, eh? Did Mr Katwala get paid for this amazing insight, I wonder?

    Some of us (*buffs nails*) have been saying much the same for some time -

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/05/31/mind-the-gap/
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    Not good enough for Trump. TX worryingly close for him.
    I'd say TX SC and GA appear too light for Trump and NV so for Clinton.

    In 08 and 12 pollsters had trouble polling Hispanics. I'll be particularly interested to see the polling against the actual in NV, CO, AZ, NM and FL.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    justin124 said:

    As for these events being too distant in time, I believe that the police are currently engaged in investigating allegations made against a former Bishop of Chichester relating to events of the early 1950s. The Bishop concerned died in 1958!

    Why are the police investigating a dead person?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    malcolmg said:

    It was teh death knell of loads of small towns and villages. Workers beaten by police following political orders, it is every bit as important as Hillsborough and as big if not bigger cover up.
    Mining was finished in the Uk.

    The tin miners, chandlers and coopers went the same way - it's called progress.



  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Quality of music produced has been thrown overboard in the name of convenience. Everything is now predicated on Bluetooth. If you go to John Lewis stores, they no longer sell anything that actually plays CDs....

    It is not exactly a forward move in the history of music.
    Quite right. I am a lover of tech, but by far the best sound I get at home is vinyl on a Project turntable through Cambridge Audio pre-amp and Cambridge Audio cables. Why I need my music to be wireless when I am sat in my living room I have absolutely no idea.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    Mr. Herdson, quite agree.

    Children may still be at risk now. I'm far more concerned about the sexual abuse of nearly one and a half thousand children (a third of whom were boys) and the utter failure of the authorities locally to take it seriously and investigate it.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Cyclefree said:


    Yes. True. The individual cases were thrown out.

    But that does not really deal with the issue of how it came about that a culture developed in a police force where such behavior happened. This was not one or two officers. This was many of them, all of whom thought that (a) they could/should do this; and (b) presumably thought they could/would get away with it.

    A police force in which a significant number of officers is willing to ignore the law is not a police force worthy of the name. Was Orgreave a one-off? Or did this attitude obtain in other cases? And how can anyone be certain that it has not endured? After all, if there are no adverse consequences for misbehaving why wouldn't it endure? Why wouldn't it be passed on to new recruits as "the way we do things round here"?

    It may not make sense to have an inquiry into Orgreave for the reasons which the Home Secretary has set out. But ensuring that the police force - in that region and elsewhere - has the right culture to such important matters as telling the truth to a court is, IMO, a pretty important part of the Home Secretary's job. It's not as if we haven't seen misbehavior by police forces since the mid-1980's.

    Mrs. Free, the point you raise is valid but an enquiry into the events at Orgreave 32 years after the event is not the way to address it. There were those of us in the Home Office twenty years ago who were arguing for a Royal Commission into the police, which we said was long overdue. The politicians knocked the idea back and instead Ken Clarke set up the disastrous Sheehy inquiry, which was aimed more at cutting costs than producing a police service fit for the modern era.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RobD said:

    Why are the police investigating a dead person?
    That did occur to me simply because he cannot be charged or prosecuted. However, a man has made allegations of abuse relating to the early 1950s.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    Of more relevance would be an inquiry into S Yorks Police's current handling of the Rotherham sex abuse scandal (and other related / parallel cases).
    Indeed. It's not either/or, though. And perhaps an inquiry into police culture might help explain why that police force is at the heart of another prolonged episode where evidence has, allegedly, been lost/falsified/ignored and investigative decisions taken, again allegedly, for the wrong/political reasons.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    F1: reading this piece, I have the feeling next year's tyres will also be rubbish:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37818411
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,920


    I suspect there will be a decisive swing one way or the other before polling day. If Trump ends up coming home comfortably in Nevada and Arizona he'll probably take Colorado too. On this poll he's further behind in NH than PA yet other polling has him ahead. If he takes both states and Florida his 'path' looks pretty wide.

    Well, Nate Silver considers the scenario where Trump wins Florida, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Ohio, Iowa and Arizona (and Maine 2nd District), but Clinton wins Nevada and North Carolina. Apparently that would still give him only a tie:
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-what-if-clinton-wins-north-carolina-and-loses-pennsylvania/?ex_cid=2016-forecast
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    justin124 said:

    That did occur to me simply because he cannot be charged or prosecuted. However, a man has made allegations of abuse relating to the early 1950s.
    But if the suspect is dead, what are the police hoping to achieve?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    RobD said:

    But if the suspect is dead, what are the police hoping to achieve?

    Overtime?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Chris said:

    Well, Nate Silver considers the scenario where Trump wins Florida, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Ohio, Iowa and Arizona (and Maine 2nd District), but Clinton wins Nevada and North Carolina. Apparently that would still give him only a tie:
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-what-if-clinton-wins-north-carolina-and-loses-pennsylvania/?ex_cid=2016-forecast
    Now THAT is the outcome I want to see.

    And how we all laughed.....
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    JackW said:

    I'd say TX SC and GA appear too light for Trump and NV so for Clinton.

    In 08 and 12 pollsters had trouble polling Hispanics. I'll be particularly interested to see the polling against the actual in NV, CO, AZ, NM and FL.
    The early voting is looking much better for Clinton in Nevada than the polling.

    Michael McDonald – ‏@ElectProject

    NV #earlyvote update: 457K voted, 65% of 2012 levels. Dem lead steady at +7.9 points. Reps need to make move soon. Clock starting to run out

    Very similar to 2012.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    I suspect there will be a decisive swing one way or the other before polling day. If Trump ends up coming home comfortably in Nevada and Arizona he'll probably take Colorado too. On this poll he's further behind in NH than PA yet other polling has him ahead. If he takes both states and Florida his 'path' looks pretty wide.
    Dunno. Been trying to pseudo-crunch the numbers these past few days. Reckon the mini Emails Strikes Back 'scandal' might be worth a point or two to the Trumptons. But that won't be enough, particularly with the gearing caused by early voting (which looks mostly good for Hillary), to change the result. It may, however, lead to value in the state markets.

    That all said, I have been forecasting that Trump will carry FL for a while. I'm not changing from my central forecast of Hillary by 284 to 254*

    http://www.270towin.com/maps/QxjkN

    *DYOR – longstanding PBers will recall I have been way too pessimistic on the DEM ECV in recent years.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    RobD said:

    But if the suspect is dead, what are the police hoping to achieve?
    I have no answer - but it was in the press a few months ago. His elderly niece was defending him.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    RobD said:

    But if the suspect is dead, what are the police hoping to achieve?
    Nothing - other than to look as if they are doing something. It's the same nonsense we had when the police put an officer outside Edward Heath's home over similar allegations. Mind you, given the nonsense which is going on with the judicial inquiry into historic child abuse (which is a FUBAR on stilts) there's not much hope of anything sensible emerging when an investigation is confused with therapy for victims. The two are not the same.

    It's pointless and cruel sentimentality to confuse the two.

    Investigations should be focused, should be led by tough, trained investigators who know what they are doing, written in clear language and should aim to be quick. You can get 80-90% of what you need to know pretty quickly IMO. Sometimes spending 90% of your time on gathering 10% of the information is pointless.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,556
    Chris said:

    Well, Nate Silver considers the scenario where Trump wins Florida, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Ohio, Iowa and Arizona (and Maine 2nd District), but Clinton wins Nevada and North Carolina. Apparently that would still give him only a tie:
    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-what-if-clinton-wins-north-carolina-and-loses-pennsylvania/?ex_cid=2016-forecast
    Only if Utah doesn't fall to indie.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    RobD said:

    Why are the police investigating a dead person?
    Presumably because the C of E might be corporately (?) liable and because potential victims are still alive.

    But if so, there's a considerable difference between an innocent child or, possibly, young adult, and a striker, engaged in an illegal strike, attending an illegal picket and intend on intimidating police and company. While that is of itself no excuse for illegal behaviour on the part of the police, it does raise the bar in terms of where compensation might be due.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    Mrs. Free, the point you raise is valid but an enquiry into the events at Orgreave 32 years after the event is not the way to address it. There were those of us in the Home Office twenty years ago who were arguing for a Royal Commission into the police, which we said was long overdue. The politicians knocked the idea back and instead Ken Clarke set up the disastrous Sheehy inquiry, which was aimed more at cutting costs than producing a police service fit for the modern era.
    Indeed. And that is why I have suggested a Parliamentary Commission into Police Standards instead - as per my comments below.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    felix said:

    Oh dear - outrage bus alert!
    The metropolitan left outraged at the lack of opportunity to send the working class out to engage in hard manual labour which was bad for the planet and reduced life expectancy of the workers - jobs which they themselves obviously wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited October 2016


    Overtime?
    Dawn raids on the Bishop's palace – televised by the Beeb..? :lol:
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033

    Now THAT is the outcome I want to see.

    And how we all laughed.....
    If it's a tie it's possible that neither become President.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Presumably because the C of E might be corporately (?) liable and because potential victims are still alive.

    But if so, there's a considerable difference between an innocent child or, possibly, young adult, and a striker, engaged in an illegal strike, attending an illegal picket and intend on intimidating police and company. While that is of itself no excuse for illegal behaviour on the part of the police, it does raise the bar in terms of where compensation might be due.
    Corporate responsibility is fair enough, but if that isn't the case simply because the victim is alive doesn't mean charges can be brought.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Presumably because the C of E might be corporately (?) liable and because potential victims are still alive.

    But if so, there's a considerable difference between an innocent child or, possibly, young adult, and a striker, engaged in an illegal strike, attending an illegal picket and intend on intimidating police and company. While that is of itself no excuse for illegal behaviour on the part of the police, it does raise the bar in terms of where compensation might be due.
    What you refer to as an illegal strike was not a criminal act - at most it was actionnable under civil law. The behaviour of some of the police did appear to breach the criminal law.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    justin124 said:

    Rudd's decision has added a further dimension to the issue. It now smells of political and establishment cover up and evokes memories of recent paedophilia scandals etc. It will certainly not go away now!
    Remind me...what did Labour do in their 13 years in power? 1997 to 2010, with monster majorities. Did they investigate Orgreave? Hillsborough? When memories could have been nearly two decades fresher?

    A little nudge for your memory: they did fuck all.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT

    Trump 46.6 ; Clinton 43.2 in Latest LA TImes rolling poll.Pulling away.

    lol, that's a reduction in the Trump lead from yesterday.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    I've (almost) had enough of investigating shyster bankers.

    I'm willing - for the appropriate emoluments - to investigate shyster policemen, whether in South Yorkshire or elsewhere. And there are no polite words to describe my contempt for those who fail children by failing to investigate allegations of child abuse. Ruthlessness would be a mild word to describe the way I would approach people who acted in such a way.

    I will await the call....... :)
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Presumably because the C of E might be corporately (?) liable and because potential victims are still alive.

    But if so, there's a considerable difference between an innocent child or, possibly, young adult, and a striker, engaged in an illegal strike, attending an illegal picket and intend on intimidating police and company. While that is of itself no excuse for illegal behaviour on the part of the police, it does raise the bar in terms of where compensation might be due.
    If it's about compensation then the NUM (what's left of it), should use the proper forum - the Civil Courts.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    lol, that's a reduction in the Trump lead from yesterday.
    LOL PrinceofTaranto = pound-shop Stuart Truth
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Cyclefree said:

    Indeed. It's not either/or, though. And perhaps an inquiry into police culture might help explain why that police force is at the heart of another prolonged episode where evidence has, allegedly, been lost/falsified/ignored and investigative decisions taken, again allegedly, for the wrong/political reasons.

    That ought to form part of a Rotherham Inquiry.

    I really don't see what could be learned from Orgreave that is relevant and either isn't already known or couldn't be found out through some better process.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Remind me...what did Labour do in their 13 years in power? 1997 to 2010, with monster majorities. Did they investigate Orgreave? Hillsborough? When memories could have been nearly two decades fresher?

    A little nudge for your memory: they did fuck all.
    I raised that question myself earlier in the thread. The answer is perhaps to be found - at least in part - in the outcome of the Hillsborough Inquiry.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Remind me...what did Labour do in their 13 years in power? 1997 to 2010, with monster majorities. Did they investigate Orgreave? Hillsborough? When memories could have been nearly two decades fresher?

    A little nudge for your memory: they did fuck all.
    Good point...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    lol, that's a reduction in the Trump lead from yesterday.
    Wait, what, why am I seeing only yesterdays figures when I go to their site?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    edited October 2016

    Presumably because the C of E might be corporately (?) liable and because potential victims are still alive.

    But if so, there's a considerable difference between an innocent child or, possibly, young adult, and a striker, engaged in an illegal strike, attending an illegal picket and intend on intimidating police and company. While that is of itself no excuse for illegal behaviour on the part of the police, it does raise the bar in terms of where compensation might be due.
    There is no corporate liability for the criminal offence of child abuse. Civil liability is another matter. But that is not a police matter.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Jobabob said:

    LOL PrinceofTaranto = pound-shop Stuart Truth
    I was actually wrong. For some reason I was seeing stale data.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    @Jobabob You'll have to get yourself on all the pundit shows if Trump loses whilst winning Wisconsin. It's the sort of state where I *can* see him winning - but only if he's taking the election overall.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Fact of the day: ~34% of Floridians have already voted. Factor that into any calculations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    justin124 said:

    I raised that question myself earlier in the thread. The answer is perhaps to be found - at least in part - in the outcome of the Hillsborough Inquiry.
    Sorry mate, but Hypocrisy has nicked the wheels off your Outrage Bus....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Alistair said:

    I was actually wrong. For some reason I was seeing stale data.
    Paging @Cromwell :)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Jobabob said:

    Fact of the day: ~34% of Floridians have already voted. Factor that into any calculations.

    I actually thought it was nearer 40%!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,559
    Jobabob said:

    Fact of the day: ~34% of Floridians have already voted. Factor that into any calculations.

    So that is what, close on two thirds of those who we would normally expect to actually vote?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Cyclefree said:

    There is no corporate liability for the criminal offence of child abuse. Civil liability is another matter. But that is not a police matter.

    Fair enough. Do you have any suggestions for why the police might be investigating someone dead for more than half a century?
  • Fair enough. Do you have any suggestions for why the police might be investigating someone dead for more than half a century?
    I assume the inquiry might incriminate others. For example, those who lied to the initial investigation.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jobabob said:

    Dunno. Been trying to pseudo-crunch the numbers these past few days. Reckon the mini Emails Strikes Back 'scandal' might be worth a point or two to the Trumptons. But that won't be enough, particularly with the gearing caused by early voting (which looks mostly good for Hillary), to change the result. It may, however, lead to value in the state markets.

    That all said, I have been forecasting that Trump will carry FL for a while. I'm not changing from my central forecast of Hillary by 284 to 254*

    http://www.270towin.com/maps/QxjkN

    *DYOR – longstanding PBers will recall I have been way too pessimistic on the DEM ECV in recent years.

    You have a plausible map except Trump taking Wisconsin.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    JackW said:

    You have a plausible map except Trump taking Wisconsin.
    That was my wildcard choice Jack. Interestingly, one can back that map (ECV range) at a decent price –whether or not WI falls into the Red column.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Sorry mate, but Hypocrisy has nicked the wheels off your Outrage Bus....
    I think the Arbeit Macht Frei = Tory gave it away. We have here a latter day Simon Wiesenthal, hunting Nazis/Tories for decade after decade after decade.

    Perhaps Maggie is actually alive and well in South America.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Jobabob said:

    That was my wildcard choice Jack. Interestingly, one can back that map (ECV range) at a decent price –whether or not WI falls into the Red column.
    For a full £3.57 at 7-1 with Skybet :)
This discussion has been closed.