politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Whatever you think about Momentum it sure knows how to get
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The terrorists in the US are well aware of gun culture, which is why they choose targets such as nightclubs and malls, where the law-abiding don't bring guns with them.PlatoSaid said:
The St Clouds mall was No Guns - it was only the off-duty cop who had been allowed to keep his.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Do you blame him. Attacks like that in the US are much more likely to fail because the odds are someone in the crowd will have a gun on them and take out David. Hillary wants to end that.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently the ISIS inspired stabbing could have been a lot lot worse, but an off duty police officer was attacked and managed to take him down while being attacked.
Attacker is allegedly from Somali. Apparently, 11 people have in the past few months have been charged with terrorist offences in Twin Cities.
We all know what Trump is going to say.
IIRC the gay nightclub was also gun free. It certainly helps to pick a soft target full of unarmed crowds.
Police have arrested 5 so far - a car full of men.
Reports I've seen so far have sources saying the pressure cooker bombs are much more sophisticated than the usual domestic nutter stuff [black powder pipe].
These two were remote detonation - with shrapnel - explosive mix of ammonia/aluminium powder and something called Tannerite, which I gather is used for tree root type blasting jobs.
The two sophisticated pressure cooker bombs in different locations are pretty much the definition of terrorism, it's worrying to see obvious pressure on the media to play down these things - on both sides of the Atlantic.0 -
Just when you think Momentum can't Jump The Shark any more they line up for another go.
Childcare is a big issue for many people wanting to get involved in politics. Its an issue for me personally as although we could afford to pay for sufficient childcare for my wife and myself to go to the various meetings and committees we are on it would be grossly unfair on the kids so we had to divide up who does what. No available childcare for so many = no participation.
But - and it's a big but - would anyone thinking about maybe getting involved want to deposit their kids with their local child Labour unit where Momentum acolytes can educate them with the basics of political awareness?
I denounced the latter years of Blairism as a cult and it was. But this is on a different scale.0 -
The latest definition is no links established to 'international terrorism'. Which I presume is code for radicalised in the US, rather than IS migrants getting in.MaxPB said:
The American media are all calling it terrorism and referring to an FBI official.DecrepitJohnL said:
More likely the BBC hasn't got a reporter anywhere near Minnesota, and the FBI statement did not mention it, so the BBC is reporting third hand. Ironically then, the BBC is going further in the direction you claim to want in order to make the link with Islamism.MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."0 -
There are unconfirmed reports of 5 devices being sought in NJ at the moment, the Mayor has confirmed they have found one which exploded in an uncontrolled manner but thankfully after the area had been evacuated.0
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Winston loved Big Brother.0
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Or, you could bother to read a dozen websites and find they all have the same formulation. It's the line being taken by St. Cloud Police Chief Blair Anderson. "Anderson declined to call the attacks an act of terrorism, saying the motive for the attacks isn’t known yet."DecrepitJohnL said:
More likely the BBC hasn't got a reporter anywhere near Minnesota, and the FBI statement did not mention it, so the BBC is reporting third hand. Ironically then, the BBC is going further in the direction you claim to want in order to make the link with Islamism.MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."
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Didn't know that. Medal for me.JosiasJessop said:
Sting went to the same school. Perhaps the music teacher should get a medal ... or shot.DavidL said:
Pet Shop boys said it best:IanB2 said:
I think you are splitting hairs. Most religions organise formal outside-school classes for kids that include a mix of doctrine and fun activities - singing or whatever - intended to direct them into whatever is the faith. And encourage adults to send their children along. Of course the decision to participate is, up to a certain age, with the parents (possibly under some social pressure); this doesn't detract from the point I was making.RobD said:
I think you'll find it is the parents doing that, not the religion.IanB2 said:
Because to the best of my knowledge homosexuals don't organise young kids into classes and teach them doctrine from a very early age.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
How would you like it if people made sweeping bigoted statements like "the better parallel is what every homosexual tries to do to kids?"IanB2 said:The better parallel is with what every religion tries to do to kids.
I apologise if my meaning was sufficiently vague for you to conclude I was referring to somthing else. I wasn't.
"At school they taught me how to be,
So pure in thought and word and deed,
They didn't quite succeed."
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From last week;PlatoSaid said:MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."
I've been wading through comments under various NYC bombing articles - and it's about 90% critical of the media non-reporting/misleading/treating us like children. It's reassuring that this recent fashion for infantalising the public isn't going down well anywhere.
Hopefully, they'll stop patronising us soon - the piss taking is making a mockery of them. NYT readers were particularly indignant.
" Americans’ trust and confidence in the mass media “to report the news fully, accurately and fairly” has dropped to its lowest level in Gallup polling history, with 32% saying they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the media. This is down eight percentage points from last year. "
Remarkable that it's still 32%.
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And so does the BBC article that was linked to. It quotes the FBI re terrorism, and then says in the next paragraph that the attacker "reportedly made references to Allah". Hence my surmise that the latter is third-hand reporting and not from the FBI statement. It goes on to say that although ISIL had claimed responsibility, the FBI had found no link so far: "We are currently investigating this as a potential act of terrorism. And I do say potential. We do not at this point in time know whether the subject was in contact with, had connections with, was inspired by, a foreign terrorist organisation."MaxPB said:
The American media are all calling it terrorism and referring to an FBI official.DecrepitJohnL said:
More likely the BBC hasn't got a reporter anywhere near Minnesota, and the FBI statement did not mention it, so the BBC is reporting third hand. Ironically then, the BBC is going further in the direction you claim to want in order to make the link with Islamism.MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."
So as I said, the BBC is going further than the FBI statement, and is not, as was originally claimed, playing it down.
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I can't help feeling industrial strength dumpster they put the first cooker in ironically damped the blast so much, it didn't end up killing anyone. It was totally wrecked, but was made for building waste by the looks of it.Sandpit said:
The terrorists in the US are well aware of gun culture, which is why they choose targets such as nightclubs and malls, where the law-abiding don't bring guns with them.PlatoSaid said:
The St Clouds mall was No Guns - it was only the off-duty cop who had been allowed to keep his.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Do you blame him. Attacks like that in the US are much more likely to fail because the odds are someone in the crowd will have a gun on them and take out David. Hillary wants to end that.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently the ISIS inspired stabbing could have been a lot lot worse, but an off duty police officer was attacked and managed to take him down while being attacked.
Attacker is allegedly from Somali. Apparently, 11 people have in the past few months have been charged with terrorist offences in Twin Cities.
We all know what Trump is going to say.
IIRC the gay nightclub was also gun free. It certainly helps to pick a soft target full of unarmed crowds.
Police have arrested 5 so far - a car full of men.
Reports I've seen so far have sources saying the pressure cooker bombs are much more sophisticated than the usual domestic nutter stuff [black powder pipe].
These two were remote detonation - with shrapnel - explosive mix of ammonia/aluminium powder and something called Tannerite, which I gather is used for tree root type blasting jobs.
The two sophisticated pressure cooker bombs in different locations are pretty much the definition of terrorism, it's worrying to see obvious pressure on the media to play down these things - on both sides of the Atlantic.
It's a miracle the other one failed to go off as that was in a litter bin IIRC0 -
According to the BBC, you cannot be a tech firm without a helter-skelter in the office.
FFS.0 -
The Minnesota perpetrator was Somalian.
The five devices in the NJ train station have been confirmed to be bombs and have been destroyed. 5 arrests have been made so far, no information on the identity of those arrested.0 -
Ah.....but what about Toddler shootings......Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Do you blame him. Attacks like that in the US are much more likely to fail because the odds are someone in the crowd will have a gun on them and take out David. Hillary wants to end that.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently the ISIS inspired stabbing could have been a lot lot worse, but an off duty police officer was attacked and managed to take him down while being attacked.
Attacker is allegedly from Somali. Apparently, 11 people have in the past few months have been charged with terrorist offences in Twin Cities.
We all know what Trump is going to say.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/01/toddlers-have-shot-at-least-23-people-this-year/0 -
The Independent: Brexit: Half of Leave voters think the Government won't get a good deal with the EU. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw4pu7ii40
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And in another truly shocking political earthquake: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-374032420
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For me as well. Though neither PSB or Sting are to some peoples' tastes.DavidL said:
Didn't know that. Medal for me.JosiasJessop said:
Sting went to the same school. Perhaps the music teacher should get a medal ... or shot.DavidL said:
Pet Shop boys said it best:IanB2 said:
I think you are splitting hairs. Most religions organise formal outside-school classes for kids that include a mix of doctrine and fun activities - singing or whatever - intended to direct them into whatever is the faith. And encourage adults to send their children along. Of course the decision to participate is, up to a certain age, with the parents (possibly under some social pressure); this doesn't detract from the point I was making.RobD said:
I think you'll find it is the parents doing that, not the religion.IanB2 said:
Because to the best of my knowledge homosexuals don't organise young kids into classes and teach them doctrine from a very early age.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
How would you like it if people made sweeping bigoted statements like "the better parallel is what every homosexual tries to do to kids?"IanB2 said:The better parallel is with what every religion tries to do to kids.
I apologise if my meaning was sufficiently vague for you to conclude I was referring to somthing else. I wasn't.
"At school they taught me how to be,
So pure in thought and word and deed,
They didn't quite succeed."
A friend of mine is a teacher at a private school, and she wonders if any of the kids she has taught will ever become famous. It must be quite a feeling of achievement for a music teacher to have two pupils become famous in that field.0 -
I very much doubt that the eyewitness said that he "made references to Allah", so someone somewhere along the line has weakened it.DecrepitJohnL said:
More likely the BBC hasn't got a reporter anywhere near Minnesota, and the FBI statement did not mention it, so the BBC is reporting third hand. Ironically then, the BBC is going further in the direction you claim to want in order to make the link with Islamism.MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."0 -
Me neither.AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade. I can't get too worked up about this.
I cannot see the Corbyn Youth becoming a phenomenon.
Not least because Momentum seem pretty ineffective at organising anything other than demonstrations and twittermobs.0 -
I'd much rather the media just reported the facts like they used to - and if the police don't want to tell us, say they don't want to tell us yet as they're investigating various leads or whatever and don't want to tip them off.MaxPB said:The Minnesota perpetrator was Somalian.
The five devices in the NJ train station have been confirmed to be bombs and have been destroyed. 5 arrests have been made so far, no information on the identity of those arrested.
We'd all accept that and be patient. Dancing about, obfuscating, doing a 'intentional bombing but not terrorism' just annoys people and makes them look silly or incompetent.
The Mayor of NY made a complete Charlie of himself and looked totally out of his depth. I've no idea of his background, but I'd no confidence in him after watching his initial news conf.0 -
In the vague recesses of my memory, ISTR that the IRA in the 1970s and 1980s liked to place bombs in metal (cast-iron?) litter bins, because it was easy to hide the device and the metal would shatter and become additional shrapnel.PlatoSaid said:
I can't help feeling industrial strength dumpster they put the first cooker in ironically damped the blast so much, it didn't end up killing anyone. It was totally wrecked, but was made for building waste by the looks of it.Sandpit said:
The terrorists in the US are well aware of gun culture, which is why they choose targets such as nightclubs and malls, where the law-abiding don't bring guns with them.PlatoSaid said:
The St Clouds mall was No Guns - it was only the off-duty cop who had been allowed to keep his.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Do you blame him. Attacks like that in the US are much more likely to fail because the odds are someone in the crowd will have a gun on them and take out David. Hillary wants to end that.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently the ISIS inspired stabbing could have been a lot lot worse, but an off duty police officer was attacked and managed to take him down while being attacked.
Attacker is allegedly from Somali. Apparently, 11 people have in the past few months have been charged with terrorist offences in Twin Cities.
We all know what Trump is going to say.
IIRC the gay nightclub was also gun free. It certainly helps to pick a soft target full of unarmed crowds.
Police have arrested 5 so far - a car full of men.
Reports I've seen so far have sources saying the pressure cooker bombs are much more sophisticated than the usual domestic nutter stuff [black powder pipe].
These two were remote detonation - with shrapnel - explosive mix of ammonia/aluminium powder and something called Tannerite, which I gather is used for tree root type blasting jobs.
The two sophisticated pressure cooker bombs in different locations are pretty much the definition of terrorism, it's worrying to see obvious pressure on the media to play down these things - on both sides of the Atlantic.
It's a miracle the other one failed to go off as that was in a litter bin IIRC
I think many cities (including London) now use bomb-proof litter bins in some places.0 -
It was reported at the time he asked victims if they were Muslims before stabbing them. And said Aloha Snackbar.ThreeQuidder said:
I very much doubt that the eyewitness said that he "made references to Allah", so someone somewhere along the line has weakened it.DecrepitJohnL said:
More likely the BBC hasn't got a reporter anywhere near Minnesota, and the FBI statement did not mention it, so the BBC is reporting third hand. Ironically then, the BBC is going further in the direction you claim to want in order to make the link with Islamism.MarqueeMark said:My current favourite piece of non-reporting reporting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-37403875
"The attacker, who was dressed in a security uniform and reportedly made references to Allah, was shot dead by an off-duty police officer on Saturday."
A bit of passing chit-chat whilst he was being taken down maybe? "I had that Allah in the back of my cab once...."0 -
Yes on balance I think I prefer things the way they are here.CarlottaVance said:
Ah.....but what about Toddler shootings......Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Do you blame him. Attacks like that in the US are much more likely to fail because the odds are someone in the crowd will have a gun on them and take out David. Hillary wants to end that.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently the ISIS inspired stabbing could have been a lot lot worse, but an off duty police officer was attacked and managed to take him down while being attacked.
Attacker is allegedly from Somali. Apparently, 11 people have in the past few months have been charged with terrorist offences in Twin Cities.
We all know what Trump is going to say.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/05/01/toddlers-have-shot-at-least-23-people-this-year/
But the US is a very different place and this is an open goal for Trump/ NRA types.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
This is a sensible policy, as it'll save money re-educating adults if they're properly indoctrinated as children.0 -
And if the police don't tell the media, then the media criticise them and invent stuff anyway. And muppets on social media start wondering what the police are covering up.PlatoSaid said:
I'd much rather the media just reported the facts like they used to - and if the police don't want to tell us, say they don't want to tell us yet as they're investigating various leads or whatever and don't want to tip them off.MaxPB said:The Minnesota perpetrator was Somalian.
The five devices in the NJ train station have been confirmed to be bombs and have been destroyed. 5 arrests have been made so far, no information on the identity of those arrested.
We'd all accept that and be patient. Dancing about, obfuscating, doing a 'intentional bombing but not terrorism' just annoys people and makes them look silly or incompetent.
The Mayor of NY made a complete Charlie of himself and looked totally out of his depth. I've no idea of his background, but I'd no confidence in him after watching his initial news conf.
"We'd all accept that and be patient. "
LOL. Yeah, right. You really would.0 -
Somehow I doubt it...logical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
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No. Next...ThreeQuidder said:
Is there any chance of his asylum application being denied?PlatoSaid said:0 -
@ScottMacnab: Davidson indy campaign sketch prompts homophobia row https://t.co/8Cr4EGf03Jlogical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
Meanwhile
Could Davidson’s Tories yet become the party most likely to serve Scotland’s interests best?
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-monteith-how-tories-could-become-scotland-s-biggest-party-1-42335700 -
And the latest seems to be that Internet claims of responsibility from a guy with what appears to be a pro-LGBT agenda are being investigated and taken seriously. No apparent link to Islamic terrorism.MaxPB said:There are unconfirmed reports of 5 devices being sought in NJ at the moment, the Mayor has confirmed they have found one which exploded in an uncontrolled manner but thankfully after the area had been evacuated.
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What is creepy is the amount of swivel eyed right wing loons on here.PlatoSaid said:
No matter how I look at it, political indoctrination of children is just creepy and sinister.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently according to the Maomentum lot, criticizing #TrotTots is basically having a go at single mums and working class people.....
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Another snivelling Little Englander gives his view of Scotland from the M25dugarbandier said:AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade. I can't get too worked up about this.
especially in Scotland...AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade.
me and my brother reacted with abject horror when our C of E Sunday school suggested evangelical summer camp. luckily my parents were wise enough allow us to escape0 -
Embassies report rise in alleged hate crimes in UK since Brexit vote
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/19/embassies-alleged-hate-crimes-since-brexit-vote?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard0 -
Why do you doubt it , not suit your viewpoint perhapsBlack_Rook said:
Somehow I doubt it...logical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
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That was a Tumblr troll and confirmed fake.IanB2 said:
And the latest seems to be that Internet claims of responsibility from a guy with what appears to be a pro-LGBT agenda are being investigated and taken seriously. No apparent link to Islamic terrorism.MaxPB said:There are unconfirmed reports of 5 devices being sought in NJ at the moment, the Mayor has confirmed they have found one which exploded in an uncontrolled manner but thankfully after the area had been evacuated.
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What's with Jezza doing these strange media stunts?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-comes-out-swinging-8863117
It's Lembit territory.0 -
Pot kettle here methinksmalcolmg said:
What is creepy is the amount of swivel eyed right wing loons on here.PlatoSaid said:
No matter how I look at it, political indoctrination of children is just creepy and sinister.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently according to the Maomentum lot, criticizing #TrotTots is basically having a go at single mums and working class people.....
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Ha Ha Ha , Monteith is the ultimate failed Tory fanny.Scott_P said:
@ScottMacnab: Davidson indy campaign sketch prompts homophobia row https://t.co/8Cr4EGf03Jlogical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
Meanwhile
Could Davidson’s Tories yet become the party most likely to serve Scotland’s interests best?
Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-monteith-how-tories-could-become-scotland-s-biggest-party-1-4233570
PS , as one of the sane commenters points out:
"How Tories could become Scotland's biggest party"
Step 1. Use mass hypnosis to make everyone in Scotland forget about Maggie Thatcher and all her evil deeds.
Step 2. Abandon all conservative ideology and embrace the left of centre consensus that is the middle ground in Scottish politics.
Step 3. Elect a party leader that actually has a human soul.
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Sounds like Panorama tonight will be interesting. Looking at Labour's woes. Kinnock tells them he fears he won't see a Labour government again in his lifetime. He's 74. I reckon he'll need to make it into his 90s.0
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But that's not surprising.Black_Rook said:
Somehow I doubt it...logical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
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Wow
Conrad Hackett
97% of TV & radio spending reserved for presidential candidates to benefit Clinton campaign
https://t.co/GoUPCtVSWF https://t.co/A2nyoK2lv60 -
Quite simply, an awful lot of people in the rest of the UK are very, very suspicious of the SNP.malcolmg said:
Why do you doubt it , not suit your viewpoint perhapsBlack_Rook said:
Somehow I doubt it...logical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
Voting in any manner that could let the SNP exercise partial control of a country which it wishes to destroy would be a little like the EU leaders getting together and deciding that that nice Madame le Pen would make a very good President of the European Commission. This would be unlikely to develop necessarily to their advantage.0 -
first time for everything I guess. never been called a Little Englander before, and certainly not within the M25 at present.malcolmg said:
Another snivelling Little Englander gives his view of Scotland from the M25dugarbandier said:AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade. I can't get too worked up about this.
especially in Scotland...AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade.
me and my brother reacted with abject horror when our C of E Sunday school suggested evangelical summer camp. luckily my parents were wise enough allow us to escape
Apologies if I've insulted your favourite children's organisation. I didn't imagine it was controversial to observe that the demographics of the BBs are not especially representative of the nation as a whole
they're said to be good at the pipes, mind0 -
There's some fresh #indyref2 polling buried at the bottom of this.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/19/snp-seeks-single-market-assurances-independent-scotland-eu-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard0 -
Momentum Kids - 'Hand over your pocket money - or we’ll put a brick through your window.'0
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Regarding the "momentum kids" story .......
It's going to be just another massive car crèche0 -
I can assure you that I think those organizations are just as sinister!AlastairMeeks said:There's a world view behind most children's organisations, including the scouts and the boys' brigade. I can't get too worked up about this.
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Mayor: New Jersey backpack contains five devices
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/19/us/new-york-explosion-investigation/0 -
After Brevik we should desist on judging facts unknown. My gut-feeling is - like many recent incidents - that this is "internal". And I will comment no further.PlatoSaid said:The latest definition is no links established to 'international terrorism'. Which I presume is code for radicalised in the US, rather than IS migrants getting in.
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I don't know how or why - but I can somehow feel it in my waters that this Maomemtum Kiddy Camp thing is going to end up with lurid paedophilia revelations in the newspapers.0
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Or hanging round street corners and underpasses touting the latest copies of "The little Issue?"SimonStClare said:Momentum Kids - 'Hand over your pocket money - or we’ll put a brick through your window.'
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The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of pursuing independence at “any cost” and abandoning the economic case for leaving the UK.
It came after the First Minister claimed that leaving the UK “transcends” the economy, Brexit and oil.
Opposition leader Ruth Davidson said: “The new mantra is that none of these things matter any more and people should just shut up about them and wrap themselves in a flag instead.”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-after-scottish-independence-at-any-cost-1-42336530 -
"A Panelbase poll for the Sunday Times and LBC puts support for independence on 48%, down four points from 52% in June in the aftermath of the EU vote but up three points on the 2014 referendum result.YellowSubmarine said:There's some fresh #indyref2 polling buried at the bottom of this.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/19/snp-seeks-single-market-assurances-independent-scotland-eu-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Nearly half (46%) of Scots oppose a referendum in the next few years, 33% want a second referendum before Brexit negotiations have concluded and 21% want a rerun after the Brexit negotiations."
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory. Absent that, with the polls still neck-and-neck and with a lot of public weariness at the thought of a quick re-run, calling indyref2 would be a tremendous gamble.
And we haven't even started to think of the key economic problems that the Yes campaign would have to address: the currency, the deficit, and - even in the event of Scotland somehow being able to negotiate its way back into the single market - the possibility that this will simply raise tariff barriers with the rest of the UK. Because if maintaining free trade links is to be floated as a key justification for independence, then, given that the majority of all of a separate Scotland's overseas trade would be with the continuing UK, this would be liable to turn around and bite them.
Still, they may feel they have no choice. The longer the SNP remains in Government, the more the risk that it finally starts to lose the ability to defy political gravity and that it begins to bleed support to opposition parties (which will be all the more likely once substantial devolution of the tax base occurs.) If the SNP and the Greens between them lose command of an overall majority in the Scottish Parliament then the prospect of a second referendum will come off the table, and it will stay off the table unless or until that situation is reversed again. And few people in a very passionate liberation movement will want to be told to play the long game and wait 15, 20 or more years for another chance.0 -
Miss Vance, seems Sturgeon's simply copying the successful Leave strategy.0
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Interesting bet
@skigrahambell: After yesterday in Mexico @AliBrownleetri for #SPOTY2016 must be a good shout.
Generally 100/10 -
And fancy office chairs, and funny colour carpets. I hit the off switch. The BBC's technology reporting is dire. Patronising, trivial, and slow.JosiasJessop said:According to the BBC, you cannot be a tech firm without a helter-skelter in the office.
FFS.
I find the whole "tech hub" idea a bit outdated. It seems more like a leftover from the dot-com era. There are so many X as a Service things for businesses now, that increasingly many startups are infrastructure-free and remote working from day one. If the BBC was much cop at tech reporting they would talk about things like that. The one place that they might do so is Peter Day's programme In Business on Radio 4, he is often streets ahead of his colleagues.0 -
SHUT UPBlack_Rook said:
And we haven't even started to think of the key economic problems that the Yes campaign would have to address: the currency, the deficit, and - even in the event of Scotland somehow being able to negotiate its way back into the single market - the possibility that this will simply raise tariff barriers with the rest of the UK.YellowSubmarine said:There's some fresh #indyref2 polling buried at the bottom of this.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/19/snp-seeks-single-market-assurances-independent-scotland-eu-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
Here's a Flag to wave!
That appears to be the new SNP policy.....0 -
Patrick said:
I don't know how or why - but I can somehow feel it in my waters that this Maomemtum Kiddy Camp thing is going to end up with lurid paedophilia revelations in the newspapers.
The Police checks are going to be....interesting.....0 -
Sturgeon would make a fine Prime Minister. She'd have been the best Labour PM since at least Wilson. She's the best PM Labour never had since Castle/Williams. But she chose.a different course and the psychological breach between England and Scotland has now happened. On top of all that Brexit has caused Sturgeon to do a 180 degree u turn. The strategy had been to love bomb No voters by being seen to try and make the Union work then fail when the 2020 Tory Landslide happens. But she knows the paradox of Brexit is this. When Brexit happens it will reinforce the Union. How Brexit happened and the process of it happening weakens the Union. So the clock is now ticking. We're back to the strategy of provoking the English to dissolve the Union first. And in fairness to her the Leave vote may have been a subliminal attempt to do just that.0
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I saw a few tweets from concerned Labourites immediately after it was announced mentioning that - and they were broadly in favour but asking how safeguarding would work.Patrick said:I don't know how or why - but I can somehow feel it in my waters that this Maomemtum Kiddy Camp thing is going to end up with lurid paedophilia revelations in the newspapers.
0 -
It could be argued that a lot of the supporters of Brexit backed independence at all costs, and thus that elements of the Leave vote were just as blase and single-minded as some supporters of Scottish secession.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of pursuing independence at “any cost” and abandoning the economic case for leaving the UK.
It came after the First Minister claimed that leaving the UK “transcends” the economy, Brexit and oil.
Opposition leader Ruth Davidson said: “The new mantra is that none of these things matter any more and people should just shut up about them and wrap themselves in a flag instead.”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-after-scottish-independence-at-any-cost-1-4233653
The big difference, of course, is that the EU is a comparatively recent political construct which attracted very little genuine attachment or affection in Britain. The UK, by contrast, still has a lot of committed supporters in Scotland. And, despite the lack of love for the EU, the Brexiters only just won.
The Scottish Government has a mammoth task on its hands trying to erase the No campaign's 400,000 vote winning margin from 2014, and they know it.0 -
Last week the Canadian journalist Peter Scowen was in Edinburgh to give the inaugural Scotland in Union anniversary lecture, reflecting on two referendums in his home province and their economic impact. He spoke of Montreal, once Canada’s most vibrant city but now “a shadow of its former self”, economic growth having stalled in the late 1970s.
There are several explanations for this stagnation, but Scowen reckoned a key contributor had been what he called “the politics of separation”.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14750547.David_Torrance__Confusion_and_fudge_at_the_very_heart_of_independence_argument/?ref=rss0 -
If she came out and said that I'd have a lot more time for her. I think Scotland should be independent and that sometimes the economy doesn't matter. The problem for Scotland is that the Union isn't like the EU. There is a lot of latent good will towards the Union and there "ties that bind" etc... With the EU none of that existed, only a hardcore of 15% of EUphiles really believed the whole European identity charade. If she makes the argument on the back of national identity trumping economics, Yes might scrape 40%, if she then ties Indy to joining the EU and all that it comes with then Yes would be looking at low 30s.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Nicola Sturgeon has been accused of pursuing independence at “any cost” and abandoning the economic case for leaving the UK.
It came after the First Minister claimed that leaving the UK “transcends” the economy, Brexit and oil.
Opposition leader Ruth Davidson said: “The new mantra is that none of these things matter any more and people should just shut up about them and wrap themselves in a flag instead.”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-after-scottish-independence-at-any-cost-1-4233653
Like Brexit, Indy would be a journey, a long and probably tough journey. The only way to win is to convince enough people that the issues over national identity outweigh any kind of personal (Unionism) or economic loss. I don't think that is going to be possible in the near future, in a rerun held today Indy would get roughly the same 45% it got last time. After we've left the EU it might go to about 50/50 for a while, but eventually fall back down to mid-low 40s.0 -
What's the BBC helter-skelter nonsense?0
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Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
Who is this 'we' of whom you speak?Black_Rook said:
And we haven't even started to think of the key economic problems that the Yes campaign would have to address0 -
Poetry much the arguments for Brexit, excepting the currency, of course.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?
It's at the very least a difficult question for Conservatives on Scotland.
0 -
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-39205080 -
So, never in a month of sundays then...CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-39205080 -
Quite possibly. But the Leave campaign only won by four percentage points, despite the fact that almost nobody loved the EU. The UK has substantial residual support in Scotland, and the pro-independence side lost their referendum by a ten-point margin just two years ago. Yes Scotland is confronted with a more formidable task than Vote Leave ever was.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, seems Sturgeon's simply copying the successful Leave strategy.
0 -
@CarlottaVance @Black_Rook Undoubtedly Sturgeon is seeing a window of opportunity about to slam shut. Yesterday's Herald article is undoubtedly a response to the success of the Leave Campaign. She's attempting to abandon any attempt at making it stack up in conventional terms and going for identity. The second arm of the pincer will be a USP. An anglophone Single Market zone on the island of Britain using GMT. It's the new oil. I'm not saying it will work. But if her premise is correct, that hard Brexit will reinforce the Union she has to move before it happens.0
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The lesson of Sindy and Brexit is that if you want to win a referendum you have to be on the right side of the arguments. I'm not sure there is a winning argument for Sindy. IF we had no deficit, if Scotland was a net contributor, if there was a serious plan for a truly independent currency, if the tone was friendly and sought a healthy trading relationship with rUK (rather than the 'see you Jimm' of today. If. If. If. Those ifs need to be sorted in advance - then they can hold and win a Sindy2 referendum.0
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Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-39205080 -
Why now? The Brownlees have been winning World Championships and Olympics gold medals for years without troubling the SPotY judges.Scott_P said:Interesting bet
@skigrahambell: After yesterday in Mexico @AliBrownleetri for #SPOTY2016 must be a good shout.
Generally 100/10 -
The argument from Scotland appears to be 'we have a democratic deficit with Westminster'FF43 said:
Poetry much the arguments for Brexit, excepting the currency, of course.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?
It's at the very least a difficult question for Conservatives on Scotland.
And the answer to that is 'Brussels'?
How does going from 8% of a body politic to 1% improve that?
If your concern is about 'Trade' how does saving 15% of it to banjax over 60% of it work?0 -
Fixed that for ya. No thanks necessary.Patrick said:The lesson of Sindy and Brexit is that if you want to win a referendum you have to agree with my side of the arguments.
0 -
Like Sturgeon is going to say that on the record.......Theuniondivvie said:
Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that's settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-39205080 -
As always you miss the point that there is no great love of the EU in Britain, if you think there is then you need your head examined. In Scotland there is a huge amount of Unionism, it is part of the national DNA. There were few ties that bound the UK to the EU, a bit of trade and some money being recycled back to us, beyond that few people believe in the European identity bullshit they've been pushing for the last 30 years. If the SNP want to make the appeal on national identity like Brexit did, it's not going to be easy. Out only just won with the EU being a complete shithouse, Yes would have to win against 300 years of Unionism and against the economic tide. 48% of people still voted to remain, the vast majority of those voted on a "safety first" basis rather than because of some sense of Europeanism or being an EUphile, in fact many will have voted In despite those facts. There are not as many votes like those who can be tipped to Yes in Scotland with the national identity arguments.FF43 said:
Poetry much the arguments for Brexit, excepting the currency, of course.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?
It's at the very least a difficult question for Conservatives on Scotland.0 -
A level of 60% support for Scottish independence over the period of a year has been identified as a benchmark in making the decision over a second referendum, senior SNP sources say.CarlottaVance said:
Like Sturgeon is going to say that on the record.......Theuniondivvie said:
Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that's settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508
The figure is a "trigger point", but will not be publicly acknowledged, sources told the BBC's John Pienaar.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-345656190 -
Indeed. All that economic BS is just classic Project Fear (is the argument the SNP will relentlessly use during an Indy campaign). A victory 2nd time around is by no means certain, but I think a hard brexit greatly increases the likelihood as it increases the political legitimacy of a 2nd vote (even if it weakens the economic argument).FF43 said:
Poetry much the arguments for Brexit, excepting the currency, of course.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?
It's at the very least a difficult question for Conservatives on Scotland.
Witness even now how we are post-brexit willing to throw away the single market and a soft brexit for sovereignty of our borders. Economics doesn't decide everything.
The SNP need to take a leaf out of Brexiteer/Trump playbooks I think, "of course we will get a good deal with the rUK, they want to trade with us", "of course they will let us use the pound even if they say they won't", "we have all their nukes, of course they will do a deal"0 -
Watch the footage...DecrepitJohnL said:Why now? The Brownlees have been winning World Championships and Olympics gold medals for years without troubling the SPotY judges.
0 -
Panel base yesterday had it at 48% Yes, so nowhere near. Interestingly too Curtice on Marr's Scotland programme yesterday said 1/3 of Yes voters voted LeaveCarlottaVance said:
A level of 60% support for Scottish independence over the period of a year has been identified as a benchmark in making the decision over a second referendum, senior SNP sources say.CarlottaVance said:
Like Sturgeon is going to say that on the record.......Theuniondivvie said:
Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that's settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508
The figure is a "trigger point", but will not be publicly acknowledged, sources told the BBC's John Pienaar.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-345656190 -
Was it not cheating?Scott_P said:
Watch the footage...DecrepitJohnL said:Why now? The Brownlees have been winning World Championships and Olympics gold medals for years without troubling the SPotY judges.
0 -
Names, names, never any names.CarlottaVance said:
A level of 60% support for Scottish independence over the period of a year has been identified as a benchmark in making the decision over a second referendum, senior SNP sources say.CarlottaVance said:
Like Sturgeon is going to say that on the record.......Theuniondivvie said:
Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that's settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508
The figure is a "trigger point", but will not be publicly acknowledged, sources told the BBC's John Pienaar.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-345656190 -
Perhaps you could fix FF43's comment while you are at it then....Theuniondivvie said:
Fixed that for ya. No thanks necessary.Patrick said:The lesson of Sindy and Brexit is that if you want to win a referendum you have to agree with my side of the arguments.
"Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?"0 -
Couldn't agree more
Alistair Brownlee could have won this race. But passed up victory to get his brother over the line. Make him SPOTY https://t.co/jaDTNslwvP0 -
No f****** way. Vote TROTT!PlatoSaid said:Couldn't agree more
Alistair Brownlee could have won this race. But passed up victory to get his brother over the line. Make him SPOTY https://t.co/jaDTNslwvP0 -
AIUI the rules allow competitors to help each other (not sure if it's the ITU version of the sport, and ISTR drafting in the cycling was banned for a few years). It seems the controversy was over whether the marshal helped him. In the end, it was judged he had not.tlg86 said:
Was it not cheating?Scott_P said:
Watch the footage...DecrepitJohnL said:Why now? The Brownlees have been winning World Championships and Olympics gold medals for years without troubling the SPotY judges.
Seems fair enough, and a ban would be a bitter ending to a story that's good for the sport.0 -
No idea what (no doubt) scintillating point you're trying to make there.Moses_ said:
Perhaps you could fix FF43's comment while you are at it then....Theuniondivvie said:
Fixed that for ya. No thanks necessary.Patrick said:The lesson of Sindy and Brexit is that if you want to win a referendum you have to agree with my side of the arguments.
"Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?"0 -
How could something that will not be publicly acknowledged have names?Theuniondivvie said:
Names, names, never any names.CarlottaVance said:
A level of 60% support for Scottish independence over the period of a year has been identified as a benchmark in making the decision over a second referendum, senior SNP sources say.CarlottaVance said:
Like Sturgeon is going to say that on the record.......Theuniondivvie said:
Media mentions anonymous sources to push a meme? Oh well, that's settles it.CarlottaVance said:
But senior SNP sources are said to have told BBC Radio 5 Live’s Pienaar’s Politics that they have also set a “test” of polls showing at least 60% support for independence for more than a year.Theuniondivvie said:
Said by whom?Black_Rook said:
Support for independence still light years away from the consistent 60% that has previously been said to be necessary to ensure a strong likelihood of victory.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-60-support-needed-before-next-independence-referendum-1-3920508
The figure is a "trigger point", but will not be publicly acknowledged, sources told the BBC's John Pienaar.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34565619
Or is your case that Pienar is telling lies?0 -
It's a shame Chrissie Wellington never got the attention and acclaim she deserved for the Ironman form. Quite a remarkable story and woman.tlg86 said:
No f****** way. Vote TROTT!PlatoSaid said:Couldn't agree more
Alistair Brownlee could have won this race. But passed up victory to get his brother over the line. Make him SPOTY https://t.co/jaDTNslwvP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrissie_Wellington
Edit: and why isn't Ironman (or ironman) in the Olympics?0 -
O/T but... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37382318
This story sets off alarm bells. Why would a medical student find several thousand dollars to take herself (and her family) from Australia to France just so she can sit on a beach in a burkini?
She managed to get the events filmed and then managed to get a lot of media coverage.
I am not saying that the French attitude is right - but something really doesn't ring true about her actions. It all feels very orchestrated - one might also say constructed.
I just don't believe her.0 -
I wonder if Theresa May's plans to allow schools to pick 100% solely by faith applies to these kids...take your pick.....Marxism, Catholicism, Muslim, Thick Kids, Clever Kids....all segregated by the age of 11.....0
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A DSQ would have boosted their SPOTY chances. Is drafting allowed in the Olympics? And if so, does that give them an advantage competing as brothers who can work together (others can work together, but it's not quite the same, is it?).JosiasJessop said:
AIUI the rules allow competitors to help each other (not sure if it's the ITU version of the sport, and ISTR drafting in the cycling was banned for a few years). It seems the controversy was over whether the marshal helped him. In the end, it was judged he had not.tlg86 said:
Was it not cheating?Scott_P said:
Watch the footage...DecrepitJohnL said:Why now? The Brownlees have been winning World Championships and Olympics gold medals for years without troubling the SPotY judges.
Seems fair enough, and a ban would be a bitter ending to a story that's good for the sport.0 -
From today's Telegraph (disclaimer, it's from AEP, so it's predictive power is close to zero):
China has failed to curb excesses in its credit system and faces mounting risks of a full-blown banking crisis, according to early warning indicators released by the world’s top financial watchdog.
A key gauge of credit vulnerability is now three times over the danger threshold and has continued to deteriorate, despite pledges by Chinese premier Li Keqiang to wean the economy off debt-driven growth before it is too late.
The Bank for International Settlements warned in its quarterly report that China’s "credit to GDP gap" has reached 30.1, the highest to date and in a different league altogether from any other major country tracked by the institution. It is also significantly higher than the scores in East Asia's speculative boom on 1997 or in the US subprime bubble before the Lehman crisis.0 -
The man who attacked nine people in a Minnesota shopping centre has been named by his father as Dahir Adan, as police say the incident is being investigated as a potential act of terrorism.
Good man
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-09-18/minnesota-stabbing-knifeman-was-soldier-of-islamic-state/0 -
They will do what is in the interests of Scotland , that is there role, unlike the Tories.Black_Rook said:
Quite simply, an awful lot of people in the rest of the UK are very, very suspicious of the SNP.malcolmg said:
Why do you doubt it , not suit your viewpoint perhapsBlack_Rook said:
Somehow I doubt it...logical_song said:The SNP seem to have settled down and become reasonably responsible after their first few months. Maybe they will be more difficult to cast as bogeymen in 2020.
Voting in any manner that could let the SNP exercise partial control of a country which it wishes to destroy would be a little like the EU leaders getting together and deciding that that nice Madame le Pen would make a very good President of the European Commission. This would be unlikely to develop necessarily to their advantage.0 -
Agreed. He Ain't Heavy He's My BrotherPlatoSaid said:Couldn't agree more
Alistair Brownlee could have won this race. But passed up victory to get his brother over the line. Make him SPOTY https://t.co/jaDTNslwvP
http://tinyurl.com/okyqsdq0 -
That si why there was only 5% in it last time, given 45% gave two fingers to unionism methinks you are a bit confused. DNA my erchie.MaxPB said:
As always you miss the point that there is no great love of the EU in Britain, if you think there is then you need your head examined. In Scotland there is a huge amount of Unionism, it is part of the national DNA. There were few ties that bound the UK to the EU, a bit of trade and some money being recycled back to us, beyond that few people believe in the European identity bullshit they've been pushing for the last 30 years. If the SNP want to make the appeal on national identity like Brexit did, it's not going to be easy. Out only just won with the EU being a complete shithouse, Yes would have to win against 300 years of Unionism and against the economic tide. 48% of people still voted to remain, the vast majority of those voted on a "safety first" basis rather than because of some sense of Europeanism or being an EUphile, in fact many will have voted In despite those facts. There are not as many votes like those who can be tipped to Yes in Scotland with the national identity arguments.FF43 said:
Poetry much the arguments for Brexit, excepting the currency, of course.CarlottaVance said:The mask slips:
Currency? Too difficult
Tax increases? Too hard
Trade? Too Complicated
Sod it - Independence At Any Cost!
Question: if we vote against our own interests with Brexit, why should we not vote against our own interests with ndependence?
It's at the very least a difficult question for Conservatives on Scotland.0
![[Deleted User]](https://wd.vanillicon.com/d2ea526b1b06ed109333f390c7ae956b_100.png)
