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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn has overwhelming victory over TMay at PMQs

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  • Options
    taffys said:

    ''Even if you're right it does suggest that May is sowing the seeds of a Lib Dem revival''

    No May is sowing the seeds of a UKIP revival. She is UKIP's dream candidate.

    Yeah sure. UKIP was 95% Nige. Lets see what form it's in after the leadership election.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only prosecuted them for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    I wonder what the prosection or sentence would have been had their cause been one less fashionable with the establishment like fathers4justice or the EDL?
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    There seems to be some confusion as to whether the word "frown" relates to the forehead or the mouth:

    http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html

    Wow! I have been in the States for over 25 years, and have collected differences in the two languages as I've gone along. I had no idea that in the US frown meant a sad face instead of a furrowed brow.

    My favorite difference is the way US airlines use 'momentarily'.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    PeterC said:

    IanB2 said:

    I wonder how they will decide which school in each town becomes a grammar and which will be turned into secondary moderns? Presumably some sort of drawing lots will take place. Will the thick kids currently attending the winner be allowed to stay, or will they be shunted out?

    I think your post illustrates another risk that May is taking: that her initiative will be over-sold or will raise expectations that won't be met. All she plans to do is relax the current restriction on opening new grammar schools. It will then be up to your local council (or anyone who want to open their own free grammar school). Most won't be interested; many won't need a new secondary school anyway. No-one has suggested turning existing schools into grammars so in reality, even if passed, her proposal will actually change very little.
    Yes. Any new Grammar would be a new build. I think the proposal is in reality a modest one which has been blown up out of proportion by its opponents. We may see an addition 50 - 100 Grammars, not a wholesale reversal of the 1960s/70s policy.
    Quite - but there is a concerted campaign from trendy lefties and
    CD13 said:

    On topic, I think Jezza and Theresa are both poor at PMQs. They are not natural speakers but are poor for different reasons. They both need a script to mangle, but Corbyn should have the edge because he asks the questions.

    May rushes her words because she's nervous. Corbyn tries to imply he's cleverer than he is; he should stick to 'cat sat on mat' questions. May should sit back and not try so hard. She doesn't answer the question (no PM does) but she makes it obvious she isn't going to. They both try to force the conclusions rather than let the words speak for themselves.

    Compared to the hyperbole in the thread header I'd say you got it about right there.
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    There seems to be some confusion as to whether the word "frown" relates to the forehead or the mouth:

    http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html

    Wow! I have been in the States for over 25 years, and have collected differences in the two languages as I've gone along. I had no idea that in the US frown meant a sad face instead of a furrowed brow.

    My favorite difference is the way US airlines use 'momentarily'.
    According to wiktionary

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/frown

    Noun[edit]

    frown ‎(plural frowns)

    1.A facial expression in which the eyebrows are brought together, and the forehead is wrinkled, usually indicating displeasure, sadness or worry, or less often confusion or concentration.
    2.A facial expression in which the corners of the mouth are pointed down.

  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    @Plato - Sebb Blatter? That was below the belt :lol:

    I just love the ballot paper. It always makes me chortle.
  • Options
    According to Twitter land, the Matthew Ryder appointed by Sadiq Khan as integration chap, formerly worked for Cage (unsure if that's directly or in contracted work).

    Reassuring.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    PlatoSaid said:

    PPP
    #SouthCarolina, Trafalgar Group (R):

    Trump 53 (+15)
    Clinton 38
    Johnson 3
    Stein 1

    https://t.co/gn6ax90Eqj
    FYI Romney won SC by 11%

    With such a commanding lead anyway, there are fewer independents and Democrats that might switch as they are more likely to be hidebound or strong allegiance.

    The bigger swings will occur in the marginal. In the Clinton (and Trump) safe seats there will be a lot of 'I am a Californian. California votes Democrat so I will vote Democrat' - a stereotype threat/ herding or whatever you want to call it.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    taffys said:

    There are surely better ways of making life better for capable poor kids than grammars.

    1. compulsory streaming

    2. Stronger protection of those who want to learn from those who don;t. Abolishing this nonsense about the bully or trouble maker as victim.

    1 dosent work without 2 as the bully or troublemaker can still intimidate them or attack them in the corridor or playground or PE etc.

    2 is, without a cultural shift of earthquake proportions in the establishment, is -alas - impossible to achieve utopian idealism.

    Grammar schools can be imposed over the head of the establishment and represent the art of the possible.
    Grammar schools have bullies too. In my experience they have worse bullies. Mine had a hard core of kids from non-aspirant working class backgrounds that had passed the 11+, which is essentially an IQ test. They resented being sent to "the posh school" as it alienated them from their friends that didn't get in. They made the lives of those who wanted to learn a misery, especially those, like me, who were also working class: we were seen as "traitors". It wasn't until sixth form, where the ones that didn't care about education had been able to leave, that bullying stopped in my school. I wonder what it's like these days now you have to stay in education or training until 18.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. .
    Pleaded guilty!
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    MTimT said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Pulpstar said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Lee Fang
    Colin Powell & mega Dem donor Jeffrey Leeds chat about how much the Clintons hate Obama (via newly leaked emails) https://t.co/6dEbD4AU3r

    From the outside it looks like the dem campaign is spiralling out of control...??
    Yes, that is one of the extraordinary aspects of what has been as extraordinary contest all along. The expectation was that, by now, the super well-organised, well-financed, very professional and experienced Clinton campaign would be pulling smoothly ahead, and that the amateurish and naive Trump campaign would be falling apart. Seems to be the other way round.
    It's tough to disguise poor health, ok Trump is older - but he has undenibly got alot more energy.

    Also the Dem campaign has gone up its own fundament with some sort of cartoon frog anti-racist campaign that only Sanders supporters between 18 and 35 are going to remotely have a chance of understanding.
    I thought the Colbert lampooning was a turning point in attitudes - I was really surprised by it.

    Plato, thanks for pointing that out. I have pretty much stopped watching Colbert as his political wit is usually so one-sided. That he should have turned so brutally and effectively on Hillary this weekend is indeed quite something.
    I normally ignore him entirely - I was tweeted it by Entertainment Weekly who thought it was a big thing. That's stuck it on the radar of a whole bunch of non-Dems.
    It is pretty brutal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GDM772Ro-8
  • Options

    William_H said:

    MTimT said:

    AndyJS said:

    I just think it's very odd how the left seems to prefer selection by house price rather than by ability. It's the precise opposite of what you'd expect them to believe.

    Assuming that Labour are in favour of Comprehensive schools, how does this 'selection by house price' work?
    The only example I can think of is the case where there are two comprehensive schools in the same town, the better one makes the houses in its catchment area worth more. If that's your argument it seems a little contrived.
    Not contrived - it is a well established fact.
    People in the DC area buy houses by school ....me houses are bought up, torn down and rebuilt if they lie in the catchment area of a 'good' school.
    PS The only way grammar schools can fix this problem is if they don't have a fixed catchment area or, if they do, that catchment area covers all the school districts of a particular administrative area, say a town. But their benefits to bright poor kids will always come at the price of stripping both the good and the bad schools of some of their brightest students.
    Regularly rotating catchment areas seems like it could be a good way to encourage social cohesion and avoid sink estates.
    Just let good schools expand and send the weaker schools to the wall. It is called the market.
    We have a good school with high demand but we are waiting for the good school to expand. Do children just sit on a waiting list for a few years?
    The bad schools. What happens to the kids in them when they go to the wall?
    An additional question. What happens if a good school got really big - because it did well in the past - then went bad because of a new head. Does it just go to the wall with the 1000s of pupils inside?
    Q:We have a good school with high demand but we are waiting for the good school to expand
    A: Expansion can be very quick for some good (top 10) comps that I know. Temp classrooms go up quickly and it is usually done by adding a circa 30 unit which gradually expands over the following 5 years.
    Q: The bad schools. What happens to the kids in them when they go to the wall?
    A: The aim is to reduce the incidence. Better to save 1,000 and accept that 100 may not get saved this time round rather than doing nothing.
    Q: What happens if a good school got really big - because it did well in the past - then went bad because of a new head.
    A: Does not happen that quickly. A school getting 80% passing the 5 GCSE target (etc) does not suddenly drop to 60% or less. Declines are more gradual and governors/parents soon intervene.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. .
    Pleaded guilty!
    What's wrong with "pled"?
  • Options

    I agree with many of posters on this thread - the return to educational selection is a potential elephant trap for the Tories and a massive uniting force for Labour. May needs to ensure that the first round of selection occurs after the next election. When the majority of parents see their children shunted off to secondary modern schools, it's going to cause vast resentment that will fester for years. Corbyn could ride the wave of that resentment straight into Downing Street.

    My guess is that grammars and other hat tips to the right will focus a lot of Labour minds. And more and more Labour members will become more focused on winning the election. That will not be good news for Corbyn. The Tories are one of his Achilles heels.

    When will you focus on Labour winning.

    Oh I forgot Dave is least bad option compared to Jezza

    I'll focus on Labour winning when Labour has a leader that gives the party a chance of winning. I am afraid that normal voters just do not elect parties led by supporters of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. .
    Pleaded guilty!
    What's wrong with "pled"?
    Sounds very American :)
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    DBLM!
  • Options
    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    You couldn't make it up!
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. .
    Pleaded guilty!
    I rather like 'pled'.
  • Options

    I'm very much undecided on grammar schools. I went to a comprehensive and did absolutely fine but I'm also very keen for my kids to go to the local Royal School. But I also think the local non-grammar schools are decent.

    I think it's absolutely natural that you want your kids to go to the best available school. But there will be areas where the alternatives are pretty bad, and most kids will end up there.

    I can see a case in principle for saying that brilliant kids should go to brilliant schools and dim or lazy kids should go to undemanding schools (though you can argue the opposite - I had a very undemanding school and got a PhD anyway, maybe dim kids need more help not less?). But anyway, in real life kids are better on some days than others and develop at different speeds. To determine a life-changing issue based on what your kids are like on a particular day when they're 11 is surely silly? If they go to the same school and get set into mostly lower groups then if they put on a spurt they can easily move up (and vice versa). Separating them into different institutions altogether seems far too rigid.
    My wife went to the high school and then did well in her GCSEs and went to the grammar for her A-levels. Perhaps a system which allows transfers could help.

    I'm certainly not going to die in a ditch to defend grammar schools. Tory/Unionist though I am.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,584
    edited September 2016
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    You couldn't make it up!
    In the past having a double barrelled surname was a sign of good breeding.

    These days it means your Mum's a slapper.

    Jimmy Carr.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    PlatoSaid said:

    Oh my

    Junker's asked for Q&A suggestions on Twitter...

    Edit

    The Fox
    #AskJuncker is Poland going to be the first place you'll invade with your new EU army?

    Burrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
    If we don't like the answer can we ask again 'till we get the right answer ?
  • Options
    Mr. Eagles, surely that means it's still a sign of breeding?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899

    I agree with many of posters on this thread - the return to educational selection is a potential elephant trap for the Tories and a massive uniting force for Labour. May needs to ensure that the first round of selection occurs after the next election. When the majority of parents see their children shunted off to secondary modern schools, it's going to cause vast resentment that will fester for years. Corbyn could ride the wave of that resentment straight into Downing Street.

    My guess is that grammars and other hat tips to the right will focus a lot of Labour minds. And more and more Labour members will become more focused on winning the election. That will not be good news for Corbyn. The Tories are one of his Achilles heels.

    When will you focus on Labour winning.

    Oh I forgot Dave is least bad option compared to Jezza

    I'll focus on Labour winning when Labour has a leader that gives the party a chance of winning. I am afraid that normal voters just do not elect parties led by supporters of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

    So you are a Labour member but would not want Labour to win in 2020 if it has its current leader.

    Who would you vote for?

    Compliance Unit might be interested.
  • Options

    Mr. Eagles, surely that means it's still a sign of breeding?

    :-)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
  • Options
    My kids failed 11+ and went to non-selective schools. At 16 they just about scraped GCSE results enough to transfer to grammar schools for A levels.
    The level of funding (often from past pupils), quality of teachers, behaviour of pupils, depth of teaching was incomparable.
    Not passing the 11+ is seen as a failure. Not just by pupils but by parents ("I'm so sorry to hear that Jonnie didn't get in..."
    We had some many sleepless nights over whether we should have appealed the 11+ results, used tutors for the test or even (although I don't know how we would have afforded it) used private schools.
    The grammar sixth form got our kids A level results, and therefore into Unis that they otherwise would not have done had they stayed where they were.
    Had they had access to that quality of teaching from the age of 11 they would have done even better.
    Selecting kids for a better education based on one test at age 10/11 is wrong.
    The grammar system in my county is broken.
    We need a system that enables a pupil to be in different ability sets for different subjects.

    Our kids had friends at primary schools who just passed the 11+. There was nothing really between them and our kids, yet they were the kids who got bucketfuls of A grades at GCSE and A level, and then places at top Universities

    If you want to judge the success of grammar schools you don't do it my visiting them and comparing their results to comprehensive areas. You do it by visiting in the non-selective schools down the road from the grammar schools and seeing what it is like there.

    Perhaps by shining a light on the grammar system the PM will actually achieve the opposite and we might see the existing ones disappear :)
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Cookie said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. .
    Pleaded guilty!
    I rather like 'pled'.
    They seem to go for short words e.g. he 'dove' into a pond - One I don't like that you find up north in the UK - "He tret her well".

    Also - they seem to have lost the word 'ensure' - it seems to be being replaced by 'insure'. I am unsure about that but I can assure you it is probably true.

    I think they should of taught their kids better.
  • Options
    taffys said:

    ''Even if you're right it does suggest that May is sowing the seeds of a Lib Dem revival''

    No May is sowing the seeds of a UKIP revival. She is UKIP's dream candidate.

    Oh, she's going to keep us in the EU then?
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    nunu said:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
    There seems to be at the moment (i.e. before pneumoniagate filters through) a closing of about 3% between Clinton/ Trump compared to Obama/Romney.
  • Options

    MTimT said:

    AndyJS said:

    I just think it's very odd how the left seems to prefer selection by house price rather than by ability. It's the precise opposite of what you'd expect them to believe.

    Assuming that Labour are in favour of Comprehensive schools, how does this 'selection by house price' work?
    The only example I can think of is the case where there are two comprehensive schools in the same town, the better one makes the houses in its catchment area worth more. If that's your argument it seems a little contrived.
    Not contrived - it is a well established fact.
    People in the DC area buy houses by school catchment area. It is one of the first things informed buyers ask - even DINKs, and it is printed on most sales collateral. The same house on the same sized lot one street over can be worth $100k less if it is on the wrong side of the catchment area.

    And changing the catchment area to include low income housing only fixes the problem temporarily until the housing market adapts, and those low income houses are bought up, torn down and rebuilt if they lie in the catchment area of a 'good' school.

    PS The only way grammar schools can fix this problem is if they don't have a fixed catchment area or, if they do, that catchment area covers all the school districts of a particular administrative area, say a town. But their benefits to bright poor kids will always come at the price of stripping both the good and the bad schools of some of their brightest students.
    Yes it is complicated to organise a fair system because people find ways to game it quite quickly - because they are clever or they have the means to do so.

    There is no simple panacea such as 'voucher system'. Two minutes of thinking would highlight the pitfalls of any one approach.
    There is no simple panacea as a fair system. Attempts to to it often end up making things worse than before. Soviet Russis and Grammar Schools being two examples.
  • Options

    I agree with many of posters on this thread - the return to educational selection is a potential elephant trap for the Tories and a massive uniting force for Labour. May needs to ensure that the first round of selection occurs after the next election. When the majority of parents see their children shunted off to secondary modern schools, it's going to cause vast resentment that will fester for years. Corbyn could ride the wave of that resentment straight into Downing Street.

    My guess is that grammars and other hat tips to the right will focus a lot of Labour minds. And more and more Labour members will become more focused on winning the election. That will not be good news for Corbyn. The Tories are one of his Achilles heels.

    When will you focus on Labour winning.

    Oh I forgot Dave is least bad option compared to Jezza

    I'll focus on Labour winning when Labour has a leader that gives the party a chance of winning. I am afraid that normal voters just do not elect parties led by supporters of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

    So you are a Labour member but would not want Labour to win in 2020 if it has its current leader.

    Who would you vote for?

    Compliance Unit might be interested.

    The party will not win in 2020 if Corbyn is leader, it is as simple as that. Sorry.

    If Corbyn is leader in 2020 (though I am pretty sure he won't be) I will stay at home on general election day.

  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    SkyNews
    Catch @JeremyCorbyn and @OwenSmith_MP in the final #LabourHustings on Sky News tonight at 9pm #BattlefForLabour https://t.co/W9k1IJr0nZ
  • Options
    Why is everyone assuming that grammars means an 11+ which 75% fail and the rest go to secondary moderns.

    * May has said selection wont just be 11+
    * No reason why 11+ couldnt be geared to pass 80% with just the real strugglers sent to a school that focuses on them.
    * The intake dosent have to be 100%selective.
    * Places like Trafford also have good non grammar schools not secondary moderns.

    A lot of straw men appear to be being erected round here.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    Direct Action is what people do when they know they can't win elections.
  • Options
    Why is everyone assuming that grammars means an 11+ which 75% fail and the rest go to secondary moderns.

    * May has said selection wont just be 11+
    * No reason why 11+ couldnt be geared to pass 80% with just the real strugglers sent to a school that focuses on them.
    * The intake dosent have to be 100%selective.
    * Places like Trafford also have good non grammar schools not secondary moderns.

    A lot of straw men appear to be being erected round here.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    Probably members of Islington North Labour Party.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2016
    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
    There seems to be at the moment (i.e. before pneumoniagate filters through) a closing of about 3% between Clinton/ Trump compared to Obama/Romney.
    It's hard to compare the Oabama/Romney polls to Trump/Clinton due to the radically different National Convention dates. Over a month later skews everything.
  • Options

    I'm very much undecided on grammar schools. I went to a comprehensive and did absolutely fine but I'm also very keen for my kids to go to the local Royal School. But I also think the local non-grammar schools are decent.

    I think it's absolutely natural that you want your kids to go to the best available school. But there will be areas where the alternatives are pretty bad, and most kids will end up there.

    I can see a case in principle for saying that brilliant kids should go to brilliant schools and dim or lazy kids should go to undemanding schools (though you can argue the opposite - I had a very undemanding school and got a PhD anyway, maybe dim kids need more help not less?). But anyway, in real life kids are better on some days than others and develop at different speeds. To determine a life-changing issue based on what your kids are like on a particular day when they're 11 is surely silly? If they go to the same school and get set into mostly lower groups then if they put on a spurt they can easily move up (and vice versa). Separating them into different institutions altogether seems far too rigid.
    My wife went to the high school and then did well in her GCSEs and went to the grammar for her A-levels. Perhaps a system which allows transfers could help.

    I'm certainly not going to die in a ditch to defend grammar schools. Tory/Unionist though I am.
    We had a bunch of kids from other schools transfer to Ilford County for A-levels. Those of us who attended from age 11 rather disparagingly referred to the newcomers as "immigrants" :lol:

    But they saw the funny side of it :)
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899

    I agree with many of posters on this thread - the return to educational selection is a potential elephant trap for the Tories and a massive uniting force for Labour. May needs to ensure that the first round of selection occurs after the next election. When the majority of parents see their children shunted off to secondary modern schools, it's going to cause vast resentment that will fester for years. Corbyn could ride the wave of that resentment straight into Downing Street.

    My guess is that grammars and other hat tips to the right will focus a lot of Labour minds. And more and more Labour members will become more focused on winning the election. That will not be good news for Corbyn. The Tories are one of his Achilles heels.

    When will you focus on Labour winning.

    Oh I forgot Dave is least bad option compared to Jezza

    I'll focus on Labour winning when Labour has a leader that gives the party a chance of winning. I am afraid that normal voters just do not elect parties led by supporters of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

    So you are a Labour member but would not want Labour to win in 2020 if it has its current leader.

    Who would you vote for?

    Compliance Unit might be interested.

    The party will not win in 2020 if Corbyn is leader, it is as simple as that. Sorry.

    If Corbyn is leader in 2020 (though I am pretty sure he won't be) I will stay at home on general election day.

    PBstayathomer!!
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    PlatoSaid said:

    SkyNews
    Catch @JeremyCorbyn and @OwenSmith_MP in the final #LabourHustings on Sky News tonight at 9pm #BattlefForLabour https://t.co/W9k1IJr0nZ

    Oh please God no. Enough.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    taffys said:

    There are surely better ways of making life better for capable poor kids than grammars.

    1. compulsory streaming

    2. Stronger protection of those who want to learn from those who don;t. Abolishing this nonsense about the bully or trouble maker as victim.

    1 dosent work without 2 as the bully or troublemaker can still intimidate them or attack them in the corridor or playground or PE etc.

    2 is, without a cultural shift of earthquake proportions in the establishment, is -alas - impossible to achieve utopian idealism.

    Grammar schools can be imposed over the head of the establishment and represent the art of the possible.
    In the UK, we have a major problem. We have approximately two million unemployed people, and a large number of people classified as sick. We have employers who would rather hire Poles and Latvians and Romanians than our own people.

    Now, some of this is due to the tax and benefits system. But a lot of it is due to our education system failing a lot of our children. And in particular, it's failing the bottom 75% of academic achievers.

    Simply bolting grammar schools onto our system will not make it better. Max had some excellent suggestions, which I hope someone in a position of power has read and is currently considerin. But our urgent priority as a nation must be stop creating an underclass of people who are largely unemployable.
    Maxes idea would be a disaster for anyone without ready access to a car or with several siblings, especially in rural areas where public transport is virtually non existent.

    The only beneficiaries would be bus and taxi companies and fanatical climate sceptics who could rejoice about all the extra journeys and co2 emissions

    If a grammar school took the top 80% the school the other 20% went to could focus properly on their needs.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899
    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    Direct Action is what people do when they know they can't win elections.
    Sometimes very effective I believe
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2016
    nunu said:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
    The only explanation is that white Americans are even more sexist than they are racist ... [imagined liberal interpretation] ;)

    PS Basket of deplorables.
  • Options
    John_M said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    SkyNews
    Catch @JeremyCorbyn and @OwenSmith_MP in the final #LabourHustings on Sky News tonight at 9pm #BattlefForLabour https://t.co/W9k1IJr0nZ

    Oh please God no. Enough.
    I think this is the final "debate" before the election.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001
    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
    There seems to be at the moment (i.e. before pneumoniagate filters through) a closing of about 3% between Clinton/ Trump compared to Obama/Romney.
    It's hard to compare the Oabama/Romney polls to Trump/Clinton due to the radically different National Convention dates. Over a month later skews everything.
    Does a Trump presidency NOT EXCITE YOU :D ?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,505
    Spiderman said:

    My kids failed 11+ and went to non-selective schools. At 16 they just about scraped GCSE results enough to transfer to grammar schools for A levels.
    The level of funding (often from past pupils), quality of teachers, behaviour of pupils, depth of teaching was incomparable.
    Not passing the 11+ is seen as a failure. Not just by pupils but by parents ("I'm so sorry to hear that Jonnie didn't get in..."
    We had some many sleepless nights over whether we should have appealed the 11+ results, used tutors for the test or even (although I don't know how we would have afforded it) used private schools.
    The grammar sixth form got our kids A level results, and therefore into Unis that they otherwise would not have done had they stayed where they were.
    Had they had access to that quality of teaching from the age of 11 they would have done even better.
    Selecting kids for a better education based on one test at age 10/11 is wrong.
    The grammar system in my county is broken.
    We need a system that enables a pupil to be in different ability sets for different subjects.

    Our kids had friends at primary schools who just passed the 11+. There was nothing really between them and our kids, yet they were the kids who got bucketfuls of A grades at GCSE and A level, and then places at top Universities

    If you want to judge the success of grammar schools you don't do it my visiting them and comparing their results to comprehensive areas. You do it by visiting in the non-selective schools down the road from the grammar schools and seeing what it is like there.

    Perhaps by shining a light on the grammar system the PM will actually achieve the opposite and we might see the existing ones disappear :)

    Pupils at the non-selective schools in selective Trafford have historically done rather better than the bottom 80% of pupils at socio-economically similar but non-selective Stockport. My view is that both the existence of grammar schools in Trafford and the better results are both symptoms of an education authority with a culture which places a higher value on educational attainment than does Stockport (there are, of course, other priorities which education authorities could reasonably have).
    Happily, both authorities currently appear to be improving their results, albeit by differing approaches.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    Direct Action is what people do when they know they can't win elections.

    Or when there aren't elections to vote in.

  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    I'm very much undecided on grammar schools. I went to a comprehensive and did absolutely fine but I'm also very keen for my kids to go to the local Royal School. But I also think the local non-grammar schools are decent.

    I think it's absolutely natural that you want your kids to go to the best available school. But there will be areas where the alternatives are pretty bad, and most kids will end up there.

    I can see a case in principle for saying that brilliant kids should go to brilliant schools and dim or lazy kids should go to undemanding schools (though you can argue the opposite - I had a very undemanding school and got a PhD anyway, maybe dim kids need more help not less?). But anyway, in real life kids are better on some days than others and develop at different speeds. To determine a life-changing issue based on what your kids are like on a particular day when they're 11 is surely silly? If they go to the same school and get set into mostly lower groups then if they put on a spurt they can easily move up (and vice versa). Separating them into different institutions altogether seems far too rigid.
    My wife went to the high school and then did well in her GCSEs and went to the grammar for her A-levels. Perhaps a system which allows transfers could help.

    I'm certainly not going to die in a ditch to defend grammar schools. Tory/Unionist though I am.
    We had a bunch of kids from other schools transfer to Ilford County for A-levels. Those of us who attended from age 11 rather disparagingly referred to the newcomers as "immigrants" :lol:

    But they saw the funny side of it :)
    Nah! It was Stockholm Syndrome.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016

    I agree with many of posters on this thread - the return to educational selection is a potential elephant trap for the Tories and a massive uniting force for Labour. May needs to ensure that the first round of selection occurs after the next election. When the majority of parents see their children shunted off to secondary modern schools, it's going to cause vast resentment that will fester for years. Corbyn could ride the wave of that resentment straight into Downing Street.

    My guess is that grammars and other hat tips to the right will focus a lot of Labour minds. And more and more Labour members will become more focused on winning the election. That will not be good news for Corbyn. The Tories are one of his Achilles heels.

    When will you focus on Labour winning.

    Oh I forgot Dave is least bad option compared to Jezza

    I'll focus on Labour winning when Labour has a leader that gives the party a chance of winning. I am afraid that normal voters just do not elect parties led by supporters of the IRA and other terrorist groups.

    So you are a Labour member but would not want Labour to win in 2020 if it has its current leader.

    Who would you vote for?

    Compliance Unit might be interested.

    The party will not win in 2020 if Corbyn is leader, it is as simple as that. Sorry.

    If Corbyn is leader in 2020 (though I am pretty sure he won't be) I will stay at home on general election day.

    PBstayathomer!!
    Is that a newly discovered dinosaur?
  • Options

    Why is everyone assuming that grammars means an 11+ which 75% fail and the rest go to secondary moderns.

    * May has said selection wont just be 11+
    * No reason why 11+ couldnt be geared to pass 80% with just the real strugglers sent to a school that focuses on them.
    * The intake dosent have to be 100%selective.
    * Places like Trafford also have good non grammar schools not secondary moderns.

    A lot of straw men appear to be being erected round here.

    Lincolnshire also has excellent non Grammar schools alongside the Grammars. Nottinghamshire has no Grammar schools and absolutely atrocious secondary education.

    This informs nothing except the fact that nothing is straightforward.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    It certainly will if the authorities don't take it seriously. They shut an international airport for most of the day yet walked away without punishment.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899
    edited September 2016

    Or when there aren't elections to vote in.



    https://www.rt.com/uk/316039-british-army-coup-corbyn/

    Perhaps this would be "the least bad option."
  • Options

    MTimT said:

    AndyJS said:

    I just think it's very odd how the left seems to prefer selection by house price rather than by ability. It's the precise opposite of what you'd expect them to believe.

    Assuming that Labour are in favour of Comprehensive schools, how does this 'selection by house price' work?
    The only example I can think of is the case where there are two comprehensive schools in the same town, the better one makes the houses in its catchment area worth more. If that's your argument it seems a little contrived.
    Not contrived - it is a well established fact.
    People in the DC area buy houses by school catchment area. It is one of the first things informed buyers ask - even DINKs, and it is printed on most sales collateral. The same house on the same sized lot one street over can be worth $100k less if it is on the wrong side of the catchment area.

    And changing the catchment area to include low income housing only fixes the problem temporarily until the housing market adapts, and those low income houses are bought up, torn down and rebuilt if they lie in the catchment area of a 'good' school.

    PS The only way grammar schools can fix this problem is if they don't have a fixed catchment area or, if they do, that catchment area covers all the school districts of a particular administrative area, say a town. But their benefits to bright poor kids will always come at the price of stripping both the good and the bad schools of some of their brightest students.
    Yes it is complicated to organise a fair system because people find ways to game it quite quickly - because they are clever or they have the means to do so.

    There is no simple panacea such as 'voucher system'. Two minutes of thinking would highlight the pitfalls of any one approach.
    There is no simple panacea as a fair system. Attempts to to it often end up making things worse than before. Soviet Russis and Grammar Comprehensive Schools being two examples.
    Doh
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,446
    edited September 2016
    Actually the worst part of attending Ilford County was the uniform - we had this horrible mauvy-red blazer!

    https://alan001946.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/uniformichs.jpg
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited September 2016
    Genius move by Mrs. May.....

    Anyway.... laters, W-E-M-B-E-R-L-E-E........

    Are you going SO?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2016

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    The bump in his Black vote starts on the 11th so it's entirely related to Hilary's health, before then his Black vote was trending downwards.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,899

    Actually the worst part of attending Ilford County was the uniform - we had this horrible mauvy-red blazer!

    https://alan001946.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/uniformichs.jpg

    Aww you look Cute!!
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Expensive divorce for Germany as UK Brexits

    http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1111724.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

    Commissioned by the European Commission and the General Secretariat of the European Council, the first calculations on how expensive Brexit might be for the 27 remaining member states have now been completed. According to one paper, net revenues that flow into the EU from Britain each year range from 14 to 21 billion euros. If you subtract the money Britain gets back from Brussels, the EU budget would shrink by up to 10 billion euros per year.
  • Options
    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    They'll certainly get Direct Action round here...It hurts..
  • Options

    Actually the worst part of attending Ilford County was the uniform - we had this horrible mauvy-red blazer!

    https://alan001946.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/uniformichs.jpg

    Aww you look Cute!!
    That isn't me, BTW!
    Though for Sixth Form/A-levels, we were allowed to wear Navy or Black for some reason.
  • Options
    Mr. Tyndall, so... if that goes ahead would all PB's old threads have to be deleted, because the process of hand-checking 12 years of threads is simply impossible? Will I have to delete my blog just in case there's a link that falls foul?
  • Options
    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    It certainly will if the authorities don't take it seriously. They shut an international airport for most of the day yet walked away without punishment.
    Didn't some from "Plane Stupid" at Heathrow get a meaningful punishment?

  • Options
    perdix said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FFS

    Court News
    Black Lives Matter protesters are all given conditional discharges

    You what?

    Please please can the CPS appeal that? If every stupid idiot now thinks that shutting down a major airport for a day warrants only a slap on the wrist, this is going to happen every day somewhere.

    I hope the operator and their customer sue them in the civil courts for the cost of the disruption, will be millions!
    CPS only had them prosecuted for simple trespass, which they all pled guilty to. So the simple answer is no, and the court basically gave them the punish for the crime they admitted.
    Should have charged them with endangering aircraft, can get life for that!
    I seriously expected them to get a year or so, not a slap on the wrist.
    Best get used to it Direct Action is coming to a street near you soon
    It certainly will if the authorities don't take it seriously. They shut an international airport for most of the day yet walked away without punishment.
    Didn't some from "Plane Stupid" at Heathrow get a meaningful punishment?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33991056
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36082429
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited September 2016

    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?


    The World Wide Web. Created by Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Destroyed by the EU.

  • Options

    Mr. Tyndall, so... if that goes ahead would all PB's old threads have to be deleted, because the process of hand-checking 12 years of threads is simply impossible? Will I have to delete my blog just in case there's a link that falls foul?

    It is well worth reading the Openmedia stuff. Obviously they have a slant but the ECJ ruling seems pretty straightforward. Linking to a site that contains unpermitted copywritten material puts the site linking to it in breach as well. Given that checking every site one links to on a continuous basis would be impossible I find it hard to see how one could continue to link. In addition the link tax making it illegal to link to a news site using their 'headline' without paying a fee is just ludicrous.
  • Options

    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?


    The World Wide Web. Created by Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Destroyed by the EU.

    Love Europe. F the EU!
  • Options

    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?


    The World Wide Web. Created by Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Destroyed by the EU.

    The trouble is they are following the US and Canada who are also seeing these sorts of court cases arise. This is becoming a world wide problem.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,001

    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?


    The World Wide Web. Created by Sir Tim Berners-Lee. Destroyed by the EU.

    Love Europe. F the EU!
    Lower middle class lives matter ;)
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Interesting to see that Bloomsbury, Covent Garden and Holborn are proposed to be added to the Cities of London and Westminster constituency:

    https://insidecroydon.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/london-initial-proposals-report.pdf
  • Options
    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.
  • Options

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,941

    I see the EU is planning on going ahead with its 'link tax' and the plan to make it a breach of copyright to link to copywritten material.

    https://openmedia.org/en/press/eu-commission-formally-proposes-link-tax-european-parliament-part-new-copyright-directive

    Under the new law the link I have just provided above would be subject to a fee if any of the material on it is subject to copy write. And if the site I linked to contained copywritten material which had not paid the copywrite fee then my linking to it would itself be a breach of copywrite for which I could be sued.

    Can a site like PB continue to have any links down the side if it is liable if any of those sites put up copywritten material?

    It's a completely bonkers ruling, they don't understand how the internet works.

    It would cover linking to twitter and YouTube, where the image or video wasn't uploaded by the original copyright holder. It would certainly cover links to Google pages designed to bybass paywalls on certain media. It would even allow me to sue PB if someone else posted a link to my blog, because I want my blog to be private - even though it's on the bloody internet and not private at all!!
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    weejonnie said:

    nunu said:

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

    A couple of very interesting demographic trends in the latest LA times poll. The most critical is that there is evidence that Trump's pitch to black voters is working, followed by a big swing of high earners behind Trump.

    We need JackW to unskew these polls, the trend is clear tho.

    Hillary seems to be more unpopular with white voters than Obama, who knew?
    There seems to be at the moment (i.e. before pneumoniagate filters through) a closing of about 3% between Clinton/ Trump compared to Obama/Romney.
    It's hard to compare the Oabama/Romney polls to Trump/Clinton due to the radically different National Convention dates. Over a month later skews everything.
    Does a Trump presidency NOT EXCITE YOU :D ?
    A new type of morbid fascination?

    I just want to see the American Media go into meltdown on Election Night. Schadenfreude.
  • Options
    Mr. Tyndall, it's ****ing insane.

    It's astounding that the EU, even they, could come up with something so bloody demented.

    How far along is this nonsense? Might it yet be derailed?
  • Options
    Mr. Sandpit, and what about how things change?

    My blog, thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk, has no ads on it. I link it here sometimes.

    Suppose someone links to it. Then a year later I put ads on, find that link, and demand payment.

    It's an epic level of stupid.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    Max, can you repost your suggestion or perhaps link to it? I missed it when first posted. Thank you!

    Can't seem to find them but this was the gist.

    4-8 - primary school, learn the basics. Everyone leaves with the ability to read and write and do maths, plus understanding the environment around them.

    9-13 - middle school, start off with mixed classes, this replaces secondary school. By the end of the 5 years the classes will be streamed. Basically about finding out what kids are good at, whether they are hands on, academic or just useless. 6 classes, streamed by ability.

    14-18 - finishing school, top two classes from middle school go to "grammar" school to do A-Levels. The others go to apprentice school to, unsurprisingly given the name, an apprenticeship. They can range from trades such as carpentry and plumbing to accountancy and finance. By the end of the first year of apprentice school students and teachers pick what their apprenticeship will be.
  • Options

    Mr. Sandpit, and what about how things change?

    My blog, thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk, has no ads on it. I link it here sometimes.

    Suppose someone links to it. Then a year later I put ads on, find that link, and demand payment.

    It's an epic level of stupid.


    Or it's deliberate. A way of closing down pesky bloggers.

  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    AndyJS said:

    Interesting to see that Bloomsbury, Covent Garden and Holborn are proposed to be added to the Cities of London and Westminster constituency:

    https://insidecroydon.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/london-initial-proposals-report.pdf

    Guardianista central, should be competitive between Tory and Labour.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited September 2016

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
    1) Remember Germany and Spain brought in a stupid law in regards to google showing the first few lines of a media articles, because they said they were basically nicking the content and should pay. Google stopped adding those to their news feeds in those countries and the page views for those media organisations went through the floor.

    2) That's what the EU army is for ;-) But yes politicians don't get this interwebs thing, where you can locate your site anywhere in the world.

    We talked about the EU VAT for digital products before and basically if you didn't give a s##t about the law you just set your company up somewhere outside of the EU and carry on selling. You are suppose to collect the VAT and pass it on, but they have no real way of checking or enforcing it for non-EU countries if you are so small that you aren't a multi-national with physical presence in the EU.

    One of my businesses was affected by this and I full comply with the law, but some competitors not located in the EU didn't, and carried on selling digital products without any consideration of EU VAT rules.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,068
    Can I recommend everyone reads the Wikipedia page on the state of law, copyright and linking:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_aspects_of_hyperlinking_and_framing
  • Options

    Mr. Tyndall, it's ****ing insane.

    It's astounding that the EU, even they, could come up with something so bloody demented.

    How far along is this nonsense? Might it yet be derailed?

    The ECJ ruling is already settled last week. They went against the advice of the Advocate General and ruled in favour of the plaintif.
  • Options
    Mr. Llama, might still apply to us, depends if it's done by country of link or country of linked material.
  • Options

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
    Unfortunately not. Like the google privacy ruling it will apply to any site that can be viewed inside the EU. Offshoring won't work.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Can I recommend everyone reads the Wikipedia page on the state of law, copyright and linking:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_aspects_of_hyperlinking_and_framing

    That link confirms the ruling last week. The problem is you can see that the plantif had a reasonable case. But the way the ECJ ruling has been phrased means that it now applies to all cases not just blatant attempts to avoid copyright.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,880
    edited September 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Max, can you repost your suggestion or perhaps link to it? I missed it when first posted. Thank you!

    Can't seem to find them but this was the gist.

    4-8 - primary school, learn the basics. Everyone leaves with the ability to read and write and do maths, plus understanding the environment around them.

    9-13 - middle school, start off with mixed classes, this replaces secondary school. By the end of the 5 years the classes will be streamed. Basically about finding out what kids are good at, whether they are hands on, academic or just useless. 6 classes, streamed by ability.

    14-18 - finishing school, top two classes from middle school go to "grammar" school to do A-Levels. The others go to apprentice school to, unsurprisingly given the name, an apprenticeship. They can range from trades such as carpentry and plumbing to accountancy and finance. By the end of the first year of apprentice school students and teachers pick what their apprenticeship will be.
    Thanks again.

    Middle school streaming based in a full assessment of talent and tendency would be superb.

    My challenge is still around this divide between academic grammars and apprenticeships.

    That still means to me a class or caste system around an implicit assumption that academic = grammar = top 15%.

    I want to see a real plurality of schools, any of which can lead to a diversity of tertiary education and career.

    Creative, sporting, technical, computing, and liberal arts, and any other dimension you can think of.

    A very stark divide between "grammar" and rest, even with the proper funding and focus on rest, exacerbates the class divide which remains one of this country's biggest problems.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
    Unfortunately not. Like the google privacy ruling it will apply to any site that can be viewed inside the EU. Offshoring won't work.
    Really? The USA is going to be covered by this? I mean US citizens are going to governed by an EU court judgment? I don't think so.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    PlatoSaid said:

    Expensive divorce for Germany as UK Brexits

    http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1111724.html#spRedirectedFrom=www&referrrer=

    Commissioned by the European Commission and the General Secretariat of the European Council, the first calculations on how expensive Brexit might be for the 27 remaining member states have now been completed. According to one paper, net revenues that flow into the EU from Britain each year range from 14 to 21 billion euros. If you subtract the money Britain gets back from Brussels, the EU budget would shrink by up to 10 billion euros per year.

    Hahaha! For all the bedwetters and hand wringers bemoaning May's lack of negotiating position on Brexit, this from the article made me LOL:

    ""I consider it to be very possible that the Brits will know exactly what they want at the start of negotiations, but that Europe still won't be able to speak with a single voice," European Parliament President Martin Schulz recently warned"
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,967
    edited September 2016
    AndyJS said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    Probably members of Islington North Labour Party.
    "When arrested by police, Francis-Grayson asked " is it 'cos i's black?"
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,618

    MaxPB said:

    Max, can you repost your suggestion or perhaps link to it? I missed it when first posted. Thank you!

    Can't seem to find them but this was the gist.

    4-8 - primary school, learn the basics. Everyone leaves with the ability to read and write and do maths, plus understanding the environment around them.

    9-13 - middle school, start off with mixed classes, this replaces secondary school. By the end of the 5 years the classes will be streamed. Basically about finding out what kids are good at, whether they are hands on, academic or just useless. 6 classes, streamed by ability.

    14-18 - finishing school, top two classes from middle school go to "grammar" school to do A-Levels. The others go to apprentice school to, unsurprisingly given the name, an apprenticeship. They can range from trades such as carpentry and plumbing to accountancy and finance. By the end of the first year of apprentice school students and teachers pick what their apprenticeship will be.
    Thanks again.

    Middle school streaming based in a full assessment of talent and tendency would be superb.

    My challenge is still around this divide between academic grammars and apprenticeships.

    That still means to me a class or caste system around an implicit assumption that academic = grammar = top 15%.

    I want to see a real plurality of schools, any of which can lead to a diversity of tertiary education and career.

    Creative, sporting, technical, computing, and liberal arts, and any other dimension you can think of.

    A very stark divide between "grammar" and rest, even with the proper funding and focus on rest, exacerbates the class divide which remains one of this country's biggest problems.
    Yes, the original idea was a bit more fleshed out and takes into account all those aspects.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,014
    edited September 2016

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
    Unfortunately not. Like the google privacy ruling it will apply to any site that can be viewed inside the EU. Offshoring won't work.
    Really? The USA is going to be covered by this? I mean US citizens are going to governed by an EU court judgment? I don't think so.
    No, it already works with google. Google have blocked certain links related to privacy issues from their European servers. That is why it is more difficult to access google.com now and you are always redirected to google.co.uk. Some links and news items have been deleted from the EU versions of google to allow them to comply with EU law.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    More on the defendants

    Court News
    'Black Lives Matter' protesters include Deborah Francis-Grayson, 31, Richard Collet-White, 23, and Sam Lund-Harket, 32.

    Double barrels all round!

    Probably members of Islington North Labour Party.
    "When arrested by police, Francis-Grayson asked " is it 'cos i's black?"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1EFyyoxa4k
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,006
    edited September 2016
    Mr. Llama, that's what happened with the #VATmess.

    The sale required the payment of VAT to the country in which the buyer resided, so even if it was an American granny selling a knitting pattern, if she did it to a Luxembourger then she's liable for the tax.

    The EU are utterly ****ing incompetent.

    Edited extra bit: I suspect most such grannies will be entirely unaware of this, and may just ignore it, but that's the law, as I understand it.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    Mr. Tyndall, that's crazy.

    I have checked to make sure the ruling is not being exaggerated but some of the effects include:


    The CJEU states that: “when hyperlinks are posted for profit, it may be expected that the person who posted such a link should carry out the checks necessary to ensure that the work concerned is not illegally published.” This places an unduly heavy burden on small businesses and bloggers who may not have the resources or the expertise to check the legality of every link they share.


    Hobby bloggers who earn even a modest income from their work, such as by having ads on their blog, will now be legally responsible for ascertaining the copyright status of every item of external content they link to (photos on Flickr, music on Vimeo, etc.)


    Small businesses which use Facebook for promotion will now need to check the copyright status of everything they share.


    Who will be responsible for going back and checking all historical links to ensure none of them host copyright infringing content? This is clearly a legal and logistical nightmare scenario.

    Good job we are leaving the EU and none of that shit will apply to us. That said, two thoughts:

    1. Will the big boys really want to discourage links? Links drive traffic to their sites, do they want to stop that?

    2. How the feck does the Eu think this can be enforced? Register your site off-shore and their silly rules are irrelevant.
    Unfortunately not. Like the google privacy ruling it will apply to any site that can be viewed inside the EU. Offshoring won't work.
    Since every site in the world 'can be viewed inside the EU' doesn't this mean that it would apply to e.g. American Websites.

    I can't wait!

    If that is the law, then the law is an ass. -- Mr Bumble
This discussion has been closed.