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  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,554
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:
    Italy has disastrous demographics, appalling government debt and one of the least flexible labour markets in the world.

    There's never a single cause.
    But a depreciating exchange rate with Germany would have given them a fighting chance.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,001
    Some thoughts about the grammar school thing...

    One interpretation of the Butler model was to provide proper secondary education at a time when the nation couldn't really afford it. The 11+ was a rationing according to need/aptitude, and it fitted the spirit of the 1940s/50s. Hence the fairly arbitrary cutoff for grammar school access depending on where you lived.

    There's no fundamental reason not to massively expand that sort of academic rigour; it was roughlythe ideal of the Gove era. It didn't happen, because of some of the bad ideas in the system. In the same way, 1970s comprehensiviation didn't have to lead to progressive silly; that was a separate decision that got taken at the same time.

    As for school size, you can set with about 125-150 in a year group. As long as a school doesn't run its own sixth form, that's about 700 pupils, which is manageable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,972
    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    How exactly is May going to get this by the headbangers?

    @MarrShow: .@NicolaSturgeon says Scotland has a veto over Brexit #marr https://t.co/R5BPg1ugjM

    David Davis has promptly said they don't, it's Sturgeon's attempt to look powerful.
    Or perhaps Davis trying to proive he si not an absolute donkey.
    Or perhaps both? At the moment everyone is trying to look like they are in charge due to the instability we are going through.
    It is called politics, Sturgeon is hardly likely to say " yes if theresa says jump I will just ask how high" and Davis is not going to admit that teh SNP have any power.
    There will be horse trading and on that will depend whether we have another referendum, UK does have to tread carefully whether they like it or not, I doubt they want to be left as rUK only.
    It's one of those fake media rows. May has to show she's consulted all the 'stakeholders'. Everyone has input. Those inputs can be sifted, prioritised or discarded and those that remain will form the basis of our negotiating position. It's all incredibly dull and ritualistic as a minuet.
    Yes and we all know that Westminster will not take any account of Scotland's wants or wishes, it will be a narrow Westminster Tory viewpoint and dictact. Which will go down like a cup of sick.
    May will likely agree EFTA plus and EEA for Scotland, her first visit was to Sturgeon in Edinburgh showing she is willing to listen
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,197

    <

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    How exactly is May going to get this by the headbangers?

    @MarrShow: .@NicolaSturgeon says Scotland has a veto over Brexit #marr https://t.co/R5BPg1ugjM

    David Davis has promptly said they don't, it's Sturgeon's attempt to look powerful.
    Or perhaps Davis trying to proive he si not an absolute donkey.
    Or perhaps both? At the moment everyone is trying to look like they are in charge due to the instability we are going through.
    It is called politics, Sturgeon is hardly likely to say " yes if theresa says jump I will just ask how high" and Davis is not going to admit that teh SNP have any power.
    There will be horse trading and on that will depend whether we have another referendum, UK does have to tread carefully whether they like it or not, I doubt they want to be left as rUK only.
    If sturgeon has any sense she will insist on EFTA/EEA to retain single market access and maximum devolution of repatriated powers such as fisheries and agriculture.
    Hopefully she will put up a proper fight and get a good deal that suits Scottish opinion and interests. I am not hopeful that the Tories will be munificient, would be a first.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    How exactly is May going to get this by the headbangers?

    @MarrShow: .@NicolaSturgeon says Scotland has a veto over Brexit #marr https://t.co/R5BPg1ugjM

    David Davis has promptly said they don't, it's Sturgeon's attempt to look powerful.
    Or perhaps Davis trying to proive he si not an absolute donkey.
    Or perhaps both? At the moment everyone is trying to look like they are in charge due to the instability we are going through.
    It is called politics, Sturgeon is hardly likely to say " yes if theresa says jump I will just ask how high" and Davis is not going to admit that teh SNP have any power.
    There will be horse trading and on that will depend whether we have another referendum, UK does have to tread carefully whether they like it or not, I doubt they want to be left as rUK only.
    It's one of those fake media rows. May has to show she's consulted all the 'stakeholders'. Everyone has input. Those inputs can be sifted, prioritised or discarded and those that remain will form the basis of our negotiating position. It's all incredibly dull and ritualistic as a minuet.
    Yes and we all know that Westminster will not take any account of Scotland's wants or wishes, it will be a narrow Westminster Tory viewpoint and dictact. Which will go down like a cup of sick.
    I respect that Scotland is a country in its own right. However, it has roughly the same population as SW England or Yorkshire and Humberside. It will receive more weight than them because of Scotland's unique circumstances in the Union. However, Scotland's imperatives can't drive the whole thing. That would be daft.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,197
    John_M said:

    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    How exactly is May going to get this by the headbangers?

    @MarrShow: .@NicolaSturgeon says Scotland has a veto over Brexit #marr https://t.co/R5BPg1ugjM

    David Davis has promptly said they don't, it's Sturgeon's attempt to look powerful.
    Or perhaps Davis trying to proive he si not an absolute donkey.
    Or perhaps both? At the moment everyone is trying to look like they are in charge due to the instability we are going through.
    It is called politics, Sturgeon is hardly likely to say " yes if theresa says jump I will just ask how high" and Davis is not going to admit that teh SNP have any power.
    There will be horse trading and on that will depend whether we have another referendum, UK does have to tread carefully whether they like it or not, I doubt they want to be left as rUK only.
    It's one of those fake media rows. May has to show she's consulted all the 'stakeholders'. Everyone has input. Those inputs can be sifted, prioritised or discarded and those that remain will form the basis of our negotiating position. It's all incredibly dull and ritualistic as a minuet.
    Yes and we all know that Westminster will not take any account of Scotland's wants or wishes, it will be a narrow Westminster Tory viewpoint and dictact. Which will go down like a cup of sick.
    I respect that Scotland is a country in its own right. However, it has roughly the same population as SW England or Yorkshire and Humberside. It will receive more weight than them because of Scotland's unique circumstances in the Union. However, Scotland's imperatives can't drive the whole thing. That would be daft.
    Agree , will never happen and given the population balance never should, hence why I think the union is such a joke.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,751
    edited July 2016
    malcolmg said:

    John_M said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    malcolmg said:

    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    How exactly is May going to get this by the headbangers?

    @MarrShow: .@NicolaSturgeon says Scotland has a veto over Brexit #marr https://t.co/R5BPg1ugjM

    David Davis has promptly said they don't, it's Sturgeon's attempt to look powerful.
    Or perhaps Davis trying to proive he si not an absolute donkey.
    Or perhaps both? At the moment everyone is trying to look like they are in charge due to the instability we are going through.
    It is called politics, Sturgeon is hardly likely to say " yes if theresa says jump I will just ask how high" and Davis is not going to admit that teh SNP have any power.
    There will be horse trading and on that will depend whether we have another referendum, UK does have to tread carefully whether they like it or not, I doubt they want to be left as rUK only.
    It's one of those fake media rows. May has to show she's consulted all the 'stakeholders'. Everyone has input. Those inputs can be sifted, prioritised or discarded and those that remain will form the basis of our negotiating position. It's all incredibly dull and ritualistic as a minuet.
    Yes and we all know that Westminster will not take any account of Scotland's wants or wishes, it will be a narrow Westminster Tory viewpoint and dictact. Which will go down like a cup of sick.
    'Cup of cold sick? You whinging Jocks should be grateful that out of the goodness & generosity of our hearts that we're willing to give you a fine, hearty cup of English sick.'
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,119
    edited July 2016
    The idea that Scotland might keep closer relations to the EU compared to England and Wales is certainly interesting and could provide an encouraging way forward.

    I'm not sure the EU will go for it though. They are generally loathe to give boosts to "nationalists" etc. I have a feeling the EU will tell Scotland they are to leave on the same terms as the rest of the UK. But we shall see.

    It's interesting that since Theresa took over we already seem to moving much more towards "solutions" and how we can make this work rather than the wailing and hand wringing we saw while Osborne and friends were hanging about.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    felix said:

    Charles said:

    felix said:



    I worked extensively in both comps and a grammar up to headteacher level. The setting in comprehensive schools to work effectively requires typically a school size of at least 1500 and preferably much more - otherwise you cannot offer the range of subjects especially post-16 cost-effectively. This then often causes major issues with behaviour management and institutional identity. On your second point behavioural issues are much greater with a mixed intake - and then stability in the workforce becomes much more important. Floating teachers really is not an easy system to manage effectively in this respect. In short [even today] teachers are a pretty intelligent and clued up bunch. If the solutions were easy we wouldn't be discussing them.

    I've only experienced it first hand at my school - with a population of 1,250 or so it worked ok (although it was not particularly resource constrained).

    Floating teachers I'm only thinking about for minor subjects - I believe we had floating teachers for Russian and Mandarin, for instance, but more mainstream subjects like Latin and Greek had full time employees.

    But yes, ultimately, a lot flows from empowering teachers with appropriate authority and trusting them to get on with the job. I would remove the right of parents to appeal decisions!
    Lol - love your last sentence - I was responsible for admissions and appeals in my grammar school for a number of years. The latter was probably a key factor in my decision to retire early!!
    Part of the problem we have across the UK as a whole - not just schools - is the unwillingness of politicians to trust professionals to do their job.

    Micromanaging is usually a bad thing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179

    As I suggested yesterday, we were already entering the "backlash" phase of the cycle...definitely fully into it now...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36819048

    It's striking that in a video labelled 'French Muslims in Nice', not one of them spoke French.
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    runnymede said:

    Grammars were killed off because they worked and Labour were terrified of that.

    Grammars were killed off because secondary moderns were rubbish, and 85% of parents saw their kids go to secondary moderns.
    Our local comprehensive was built as a secondary modern. It now has nearly two thousand pupils, cricket football and rugby pitches a school theatre with tiered seats and various other things I have only come across in top end private schools.

    It takes every kid in Ampthill and Flitwick from the feeder middle schools who wants to go there and applying is just a case of filling out an online form and waiting for the confirmation then the kids walking to school. Results are excellent.

    Sod Buckinghamshires policy of fannying around with entrance exams and people travelling miles to a grammar school.

    What helps is that most of the kids are country/small town kids and fairly bright so the dimmer kids get pulled upwards and the school meets the comprehensive ideal of a grammar school education for everyone.

    The problem in inner cities is that the majority of kids are as thick as two planks so a comprehensive school becomes a secondary modern, struggles to get decent teachers and bright kids who want to work are despised and picked on by the thickos. The only option then is segregstion by ability or segregation by parents mobilty and wealth (so they can go to live in areas with the good schools). At the moment we have the latter.

    The problem is what we do with the thickos who have no academic ability, and now few semi or unskilled jobs so that they can have a decent life.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:
    Yes -- the Euro benefits Germany and harms the rest by locking in a competitive (or artificially low) exchange rate. Three cheers for Gordon Brown and his five tests!
    Broadly, countries with flexible labour markets (Germany, the Netherlands, Ireland) have done well from Euro membership. Those with inflexible ones (Italy, France, Greece) have done badly.

    Spain is the interesting one, because they've gone from inflexible to flexible, and are now the fastest growing large economy in Europe.
    Ireland and Spain both had, even with flexible labour markets, property development bubbles which burst, and from which their economies are now recovering.
    Agreed (and the same is true of Portugal), which was a consequence - or at least encouraged - by being in the Euro, resulting in too low interest rates.

    (Of course: it's quite possible the governments would have let their housing markets get out of control outside the Euro... we've managed it)
  • JohnLoony said:

    The Labour Party in fighting an election is like an elephant attacking a host of ants. The elephant will kill thousands, perhaps even millions, of voters, but in the end their numbers will overcome him, and he will be eaten to the bone.

    --Colonel Bernd Von Kleist

    Was the analogy originally about Germany invading Russia?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:
    Italy has disastrous demographics, appalling government debt and one of the least flexible labour markets in the world.

    There's never a single cause.
    And the euro prevented them devaluing
    That was a particular issue for Italy, as its historic growth model was based around using a devaluing currency to alleviate the issues caused by an inflexible labour market.

    And it was compounded by the fact that Italy has the worst demographics in Western Europe.

    More positively, private sector debt in Italy is tiny compared to that in most countries. And Renzi at least recognises that he needs to reform bankruptcy and labour laws. The question is whether he'll manage to get the country on the right path before the crazies get in.*

    * The Five Star Movement are crazies. For the record, it's not their Euroscepticism that makes them crazy, but their views on almost everything else, and their complete lack of understanding of basic economic principles.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,119
    Doesn't look like we'll be going to the back of the queue with Australia anyway;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    JohnLoony said:

    The Labour Party in fighting an election is like an elephant attacking a host of ants. The elephant will kill thousands, perhaps even millions, of voters, but in the end their numbers will overcome him, and he will be eaten to the bone.

    --Colonel Bernd Von Kleist

    Was the analogy originally about Germany invading Russia?
    I believe so. As Colonel von Kleist passed away in 1976, his opportunities for commenting on Labour's current political woes are necessarily limited.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    GIN1138 said:

    Doesn't look like we'll be going to the back of the queue with Australia anyway;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055

    Is free movement on the table?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Jerry Rushmore
    #Corbyn supporters putting up posters attacking Labour MP Harriet Harman in her constituency https://t.co/6tyTx9HXO3
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This is a nice little diversion

    BBC Archive
    #OTD 1984 Stephen King tells Selina Scott what scares him the most

    https://t.co/penO3xCsVz
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,286
    edited July 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Only one of my three friends seems to have made it to junior ministerial level...
    Yes, but Gavin Barwell (whom JohnLoony and I both rate highly too!) going straight from being a junior whip to Minister of State is a clear sign of preferment: if you like at the other whips (Hopkins, Coffey, Kirby, James) they were only promoted to PUSSes.

    I suspect that Kwasi will stay on the backbenches for quite a while.....

    Actually, these junior ranks are not unimpressive. Hunky Dunky and David Jones both return to government, good also to see Paul Maynard, who suffers from mild cerebral palsy, getting on the ladder. Can't discern any 'ideological' pattern which is reassuring. Laughs all round that "Sir" MIchael Ellis becomes Deputy Leader of the House, but then he was Theresa's PPS.

    Overall, I'd give the new Ministry in its totality 7 out of 10.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:
    Italy has disastrous demographics, appalling government debt and one of the least flexible labour markets in the world.

    There's never a single cause.
    And the euro prevented them devaluing
    That was a particular issue for Italy, as its historic growth model was based around using a devaluing currency to alleviate the issues caused by an inflexible labour market.

    And it was compounded by the fact that Italy has the worst demographics in Western Europe.

    More positively, private sector debt in Italy is tiny compared to that in most countries. And Renzi at least recognises that he needs to reform bankruptcy and labour laws. The question is whether he'll manage to get the country on the right path before the crazies get in.*

    * The Five Star Movement are crazies. For the record, it's not their Euroscepticism that makes them crazy, but their views on almost everything else, and their complete lack of understanding of basic economic principles.
    I agree. But theory behind entering the euro was that it would force Italian politicians to fix their economy. I think I can see the flaw in that plan...
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016

    Struggling to get a chapter started which means idle browsing led me to this:
    https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/754625815527194624

    If there's a Commons vote and we don't leave the EU, the electoral implications are enormous.

    I watched the Grieve, Stuart bit. That's not quite what he said. He said convention expected a vote on such a serious matter. Not that a vote was required. Mrs Stuart then said this was just an attempt to force a 2nd referendum.

    I don't think the Gov't will risk a vote on triggering A50.

    (today's episode isn't available on the iPlayer yet)

    EDIT
    Mr Grieve doesn't seem to have a gov't role at the mo, and none of his select committees look relevant to Brexit.

    http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/commons/mr-dominic-grieve/16
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    GIN1138 said:

    Doesn't look like we'll be going to the back of the queue with Australia anyway;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36818055

    Is free movement on the table?
    For those who are just too, too upset by EUref result, they could reinstate the Ten Pound Pom regime.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JohnO said:



    Overall, I'd give the new Ministry in its totality 7 out of 10.

    If you ignore the Dominic Raab decision, what would your score be?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,654


    If there's a Commons vote and we don't leave the EU, the electoral implications are enormous.

    Bear in mind that parliament won't vote against leaving the EU as such, they'll vote against leaving the EU at that particular time, [ with that particular plan | without a plan ].

    This gives the opposition a lot of room to play both sides, eg people who voted for leave have a right to expect you to [ cut immigration | stay in the single market ].
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    One of the reasons we have to delay serving article 50 is to get bilateral free trade agreements drawn up with the 30 odd nations that the EU already has deals signed with as well as the likes of Australia and New Zealand.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,286
    Charles said:

    JohnO said:



    Overall, I'd give the new Ministry in its totality 7 out of 10.

    If you ignore the Dominic Raab decision, what would your score be?
    Still the same. It is a shame he was fired (having real talent) but, as you remarked yesterday, shall we say his referendum 'peace' was less than optimal (though he and Mrs M have had 'issues' long before, so I believe there was an element of vindictiveness).
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons we have to delay serving article 50 is to get bilateral free trade agreements drawn up with the 30 odd nations that the EU already has deals signed with as well as the likes of Australia and New Zealand.

    As I understand it the current non-EU-EU trade deals will remain in force in the UK unless either the UK, or the non-EU nation, objects.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons we have to delay serving article 50 is to get bilateral free trade agreements drawn up with the 30 odd nations that the EU already has deals signed with as well as the likes of Australia and New Zealand.

    As I understand it the current non-EU-EU trade deals will remain in force in the UK unless either the UK, or the non-EU nation, objects.

    That's very unlikely.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2016
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons we have to delay serving article 50 is to get bilateral free trade agreements drawn up with the 30 odd nations that the EU already has deals signed with as well as the likes of Australia and New Zealand.

    As I understand it the current non-EU-EU trade deals will remain in force in the UK unless either the UK, or the non-EU nation, objects.

    That's very unlikely.
    "As a WTO Member and signatory of the EU’s Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) in its own right16, the UK will continue to be bound by these obligations and should expect other countries to reciprocate17.

    To do so would be in the interest of both parties: aside from the basic economic benefits of free trade, continuing to honour their FTAs with the UK would require no additional negotiation and would maintain the status quo; to repudiate them would result in the raising of tariff barriers and increased costs for both exporters and importers in the partner countries as well as the UK.

    Whilst it might not be a priority for all of these partners to negotiate an FTA with the UK if one did not exist already, maintaining an existing one would almost always be advantageous.

    Nevertheless, this should not be taken for granted. An urgent dialogue with key trading partners should take place shortly after the referendum to establish the above as a common position and reaffirm the existence of FTAs between the UK and its partners."

    p.14
    http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/the-iea-brexit-prize-a-blueprint-for-britain-openness-not-isolation
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,011
    PlatoSaid said:

    New appointments overnight

    Penny Mordaunt – Minister of State at DWP
    Mike Penning – Minister of State at MoD
    Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
    Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
    Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
    Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
    John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
    Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
    Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
    Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
    Lord Price – Minister of State at the Department for International Trade
    Philip Dunne – Minister of State at the Department of Health
    Sir Oliver Heald – Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice
    Nick Hurd – Minister of State at Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
    Ben Wallace – Minister of State for Security at the Home Office
    Baroness Williams – Minister of State at the Home Office
    Sir Alan Duncan – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    Baroness Anelay – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development
    Earl Howe – Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence and Deputy Leader of the House of Lords
    Nick Gibb – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Edward Timpson – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Robert Halfon – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    David Jones – Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union
    Baroness Neville-Rolfe – Minister of State at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
    Lord Freud – Minister of State for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions
    Gavin Barwell – Minister of State for Housing, Planning and Minister for London at the Department for Communities and Local Government
    George Eustice – Minister of State at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
    Rory Stewart – Minister of State at the Department for International Development

    Loads more here

    http://order-order.com/2016/07/17/new-junior-minister-appointments/

    So Mrs May is a secret socialist - she has appointed Shirley Williams as a Minister of State! Unfortunately it turns out to be Baroness Williams of Trafford not Baroness Williams of Crosby.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    slade said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    New appointments overnight

    Penny Mordaunt – Minister of State at DWP
    Mike Penning – Minister of State at MoD
    Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
    Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
    Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
    Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
    John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
    Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
    Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
    Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
    Lord Price – Minister of State at the Department for International Trade
    Philip Dunne – Minister of State at the Department of Health
    Sir Oliver Heald – Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice
    Nick Hurd – Minister of State at Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
    Ben Wallace – Minister of State for Security at the Home Office
    Baroness Williams – Minister of State at the Home Office
    Sir Alan Duncan – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    Baroness Anelay – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development
    Earl Howe – Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence and Deputy Leader of the House of Lords
    Nick Gibb – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Edward Timpson – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Robert Halfon – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    David Jones – Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union
    Baroness Neville-Rolfe – Minister of State at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
    Lord Freud – Minister of State for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions
    Gavin Barwell – Minister of State for Housing, Planning and Minister for London at the Department for Communities and Local Government
    George Eustice – Minister of State at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
    Rory Stewart – Minister of State at the Department for International Development

    Loads more here

    http://order-order.com/2016/07/17/new-junior-minister-appointments/

    So Mrs May is a secret socialist - she has appointed Shirley Williams as a Minister of State! Unfortunately it turns out to be Baroness Williams of Trafford not Baroness Williams of Crosby.
    The payroll vote will soon include almost all except Osborne and Gove.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    slade said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    New appointments overnight

    Penny Mordaunt – Minister of State at DWP
    Mike Penning – Minister of State at MoD
    Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
    Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
    Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
    Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
    John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
    Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
    Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
    Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
    Lord Price – Minister of State at the Department for International Trade
    Philip Dunne – Minister of State at the Department of Health
    Sir Oliver Heald – Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice
    Nick Hurd – Minister of State at Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
    Ben Wallace – Minister of State for Security at the Home Office
    Baroness Williams – Minister of State at the Home Office
    Sir Alan Duncan – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    Baroness Anelay – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development
    Earl Howe – Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence and Deputy Leader of the House of Lords
    Nick Gibb – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Edward Timpson – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Robert Halfon – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    David Jones – Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union
    Baroness Neville-Rolfe – Minister of State at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
    Lord Freud – Minister of State for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions
    Gavin Barwell – Minister of State for Housing, Planning and Minister for London at the Department for Communities and Local Government
    George Eustice – Minister of State at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
    Rory Stewart – Minister of State at the Department for International Development

    Loads more here

    http://order-order.com/2016/07/17/new-junior-minister-appointments/

    So Mrs May is a secret socialist - she has appointed Shirley Williams as a Minister of State! Unfortunately it turns out to be Baroness Williams of Trafford not Baroness Williams of Crosby.
    Greg Hands lived in West Berlin and attended Cambridge University. Clearly a russian spy!
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,286

    slade said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    New appointments overnight

    Penny Mordaunt – Minister of State at DWP
    Mike Penning – Minister of State at MoD
    Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
    Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
    Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
    Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
    John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
    Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
    Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
    Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
    Lord Price – Minister of State at the Department for International Trade
    Philip Dunne – Minister of State at the Department of Health
    Sir Oliver Heald – Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice
    Nick Hurd – Minister of State at Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy
    Ben Wallace – Minister of State for Security at the Home Office
    Baroness Williams – Minister of State at the Home Office
    Sir Alan Duncan – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office
    Baroness Anelay – Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for International Development
    Earl Howe – Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence and Deputy Leader of the House of Lords
    Nick Gibb – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Edward Timpson – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    Robert Halfon – Minister of State at the Department for Education
    David Jones – Minister of State at the Department for Exiting the European Union
    Baroness Neville-Rolfe – Minister of State at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy
    Lord Freud – Minister of State for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions
    Gavin Barwell – Minister of State for Housing, Planning and Minister for London at the Department for Communities and Local Government
    George Eustice – Minister of State at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
    Rory Stewart – Minister of State at the Department for International Development

    Loads more here

    http://order-order.com/2016/07/17/new-junior-minister-appointments/

    So Mrs May is a secret socialist - she has appointed Shirley Williams as a Minister of State! Unfortunately it turns out to be Baroness Williams of Trafford not Baroness Williams of Crosby.
    Greg Hands lived in West Berlin and attended Cambridge University. Clearly a russian spy!
    It's a clear demotion for him.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Not sure if this means Trump thinks Hillary will pick Warren or that she won't.

    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/754652888752910336
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    edited July 2016

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    One of the reasons we have to delay serving article 50 is to get bilateral free trade agreements drawn up with the 30 odd nations that the EU already has deals signed with as well as the likes of Australia and New Zealand.

    As I understand it the current non-EU-EU trade deals will remain in force in the UK unless either the UK, or the non-EU nation, objects.

    That's very unlikely.
    "As a WTO Member and signatory of the EU’s Free Trade Agreements (FTAs) in its own right16, the UK will continue to be bound by these obligations and should expect other countries to reciprocate17.

    To do so would be in the interest of both parties: aside from the basic economic benefits of free trade, continuing to honour their FTAs with the UK would require no additional negotiation and would maintain the status quo; to repudiate them would result in the raising of tariff barriers and increased costs for both exporters and importers in the partner countries as well as the UK.

    Whilst it might not be a priority for all of these partners to negotiate an FTA with the UK if one did not exist already, maintaining an existing one would almost always be advantageous.

    Nevertheless, this should not be taken for granted. An urgent dialogue with key trading partners should take place shortly after the referendum to establish the above as a common position and reaffirm the existence of FTAs between the UK and its partners."

    p.14
    http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/the-iea-brexit-prize-a-blueprint-for-britain-openness-not-isolation
    "This should not be taken for granted"
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    JohnO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    Only one of my three friends seems to have made it to junior ministerial level...
    Yes, but Gavin Barwell (whom JohnLoony and I both rate highly too!) going straight from being a junior whip to Minister of State is a clear sign of preferment: if you like at the other whips (Hopkins, Coffey, Kirby, James) they were only promoted to PUSSes.

    I suspect that Kwasi will stay on the backbenches for quite a while.....

    Actually, these junior ranks are not unimpressive. Hunky Dunky and David Jones both return to government, good also to see Paul Maynard, who suffers from mild cerebral palsy, getting on the ladder. Can't discern any 'ideological' pattern which is reassuring. Laughs all round that "Sir" MIchael Ellis becomes Deputy Leader of the House, but then he was Theresa's PPS.

    Overall, I'd give the new Ministry in its totality 7 out of 10.
    I see Gavin Barwell has had his private members bill pass Royal assent. Impressive. I believe not many Private members bill actually become law.

    Mental Health (Discrimination) (No. 2) Bill 2012–13[9]
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    People who are worrying that the Cameroons are going to rebel need to remember that Mrs May has been very canny and made a Cameroon the Chief Whip and will keep them all in line.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Speaking of the Theresa's chumocracy - it appears to include old friends from her Oxford Union set:

    Alan Duncan
    Philip Hammond
    Damian Green

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/after-the-may-revolution-the-humocracy-is-dead-long-live-the-chumocracy-6l7psh3dp
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,188

    NEW THREAD NEW THREAD

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    PlatoSaid said:

    Speaking of the Theresa's chumocracy - it appears to include old friends from her Oxford Union set:

    Alan Duncan
    Philip Hammond
    Damian Green

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/after-the-may-revolution-the-humocracy-is-dead-long-live-the-chumocracy-6l7psh3dp

    Are they actually "old friends" or people who happened to be at Oxford at the same time? Sounds like some newspaper scribbler trying to find a hook to hang the government on. (I don't subscribe to Murdoch publications)

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,286
    PlatoSaid said:

    Speaking of the Theresa's chumocracy - it appears to include old friends from her Oxford Union set:

    Alan Duncan
    Philip Hammond
    Damian Green

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/after-the-may-revolution-the-humocracy-is-dead-long-live-the-chumocracy-6l7psh3dp

    Philip Hammond played no part in the Oxford Union or any other form of student politics.
This discussion has been closed.