politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Our thoughts this morning are with the people of Nice after

A sombre first today

Looking at the bullet holes in the windshield of the truck, it appears to be right hand drive - there are no bullet holes where a left hand driver would be.

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

Tim_B said:

Looking at the bullet holes in the windshield of the truck, it appears to be right hand drive - there are no bullet holes where a left hand driver would be.

Possible that the shooter shot obliqely from the side. No doubt safer than standing in front of a moving lorry. But who knows.

edmundintokyo said:

RationalPlan said:

If not already done, expect to see lots more heavy bollards along major streets and squares.

The trick here is to use fear of terrorism, an exceedingly low risk that you have a near-zero probability of being a victim of, to do things that can prevent road accidents, which are an actual serious threat to people's safety.

Newt Gingrich has already tried to parody Obama by saying the answer is to ban lorries.

Just when they seemed to be getting over the last attack, my sympathies are with them.

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

Are you American? My guess is you are lol

This is nothing to do with Schengen or the EU or recent immigration. It's to do with a number of things coming together: global issues like the American led destabilisation of the Middle East, the uprisings throughout the Arab world, the struggle within Islam itself between those who want Islam to go back to the times of the Prophet, basically purify the religion and unify Muslims against everybody else and also social problems in Western Europe arising from 2nd generation Muslims.

France is the number one target in Europe because of three reasons:

1. Under Hollande, France is more active in waging war on Islamists around the world.

2. The ban on the burka/niqab has enraged and radicalised a large section of the Muslim population and France's aggressive enforcement of secularism is not working just causing more resentment, trouble, discrimination etc.

3. The most powerful group of non middle Eastern jihadis within ISIS are French.

Not my opinions but those of a French security expert speaking earlier on Sky news.

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

Which begs the question of how will that community be motivated to drive changes from within?

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

Not only that - it is reported that some of the dead are innocent Muslims, celebrating along with everyone else.

It's atrocious. I was thinking how lucky we were not to get some terrorist attack during the recent football tournament - then this.

There’s a fetid cloud of acrimony over Labour – it’s the reek of death

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

YellowSubmarine said:

There’s a fetid cloud of acrimony over Labour – it’s the reek of death

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

No the Real Labour party has eacaped after decades of leaders trying to keep them hidden while welcoming their essential activism and votes. Saw exactly this in Lambeth and GLC in early 80s.

I don't care what his passport said or where he was born, this person isn't French.

The clearly don't share the values of liberte egalite fraternite. They dispose French civilisation.

People like this should be expelled in their millions from the west

YellowSubmarine said:

The purpose of Terrorism is to cause Terror. So as an aside any political response that promotes fear is aidding and abetting the perpetrators. But this is such a low tech attack it's impossible to stop. Which is it's point. If lorries are now a terrorist weapon how can any government in any state let alone a free state stop this ? While voters will rally to the ensuing security theatre deep down they know this. Which is why it's such effective terrorism. It's truly terrifying.

Many more are killed every year because 40 tonne lorries and streets full of cars bicycles and pedestrians are allowed to mingle together.

Maybe that root cause needs considering too and the Road Lobby which over the last seventy years by pressure and corruption persuaded the government to allow bigger and bigger lorries and virtually destroy the rail freight industry in the 60s and 70s held to account?

Then there is the argument that this *isn't* terrorism as the perpetrators have no negotiable political goals. We can't negotiate, compromise or stalemate them like we did with the IRA. It's a war fought by a low tech non state actor using terrorist tactics but not terrorism. That's an even more depressing prospect as we'll just become even more authoritarian as societies while waiting for it to just burn it's self out. Which could take decades.

YellowSubmarine said:

The purpose of Terrorism is to cause Terror. So as an aside any political response that promotes fear is aidding and abetting the perpetrators. But this is such a low tech attack it's impossible to stop. Which is it's point. If lorries are now a terrorist weapon how can any government in any state let alone a free state stop this ? While voters will rally to the ensuing security theatre deep down they know this. Which is why it's such effective terrorism. It's truly terrifying.

Our home grown terrorists have tended to strive for the big showpiece event in London, involving a pallet of fertiliser and intricate planning. I've always been of the opinion that once they decided to think smaller, and in places that are definitely not London, then we'd be in trouble. I think we're in trouble now.

blackburn63 said:

MarqueeMark said:

The only thing that gives hope is if at Friday prayers in every mosque around the world, it is made clear this person has not gone to heaven, with his side-order of virgins; but as an Enemy of Islam, has just started his first day of unimaginable torment in Jahannam - Hell.

Anybody who does as he has done will also certainly be an Enemy of Islam. No waiting for the Last Day. No judgement by Allah. Just immediate Jahannam.

Time for the religious, spiritual and political leadership of Islam to take a stand. They have a responsibility. Now.

Won't happen, I suspect you know it. I hear that Islam is the religion of peace, after every atrocity I expect to see a march/protest by "peace loving Muslims", as yet.......

Don't get me wrong, I believe the vast majority of Muslims find this as abhorrent as I do, I just wish they were more vocal to remove any doubt.

When Jo Cox was shot by a white right-winger did other white right-wing supporters go on a protest march?

SouthamObserver said:

YellowSubmarine said:

There’s a fetid cloud of acrimony over Labour – it’s the reek of death

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

An excellent and depressing article.

Indeed, that is the best article I've yet read about the state of the party.

HappyMcFluffy said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

Perhaps a better analogy would be that the solution to Nazism could only come from within the German community.

To equate the actions of this cultist with the whole of Islam is to equate the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church (or worse) with Christianity. Both are enabled by their respective religions, but they do not represent the whole. Or, more aptly for this site, to say that some recent racist attacks have been caused by Leave voters, therefore all Brexiteers are racists.

This is still a small cult. We have some time. No need for internment camps, no need for any kneejerk measures - let's enable our security services to cut off its head by targetting the recruiters and indoctrinators, and then let's help the moderate Muslim community ensure that it does not grow again.

Wow, that must be the shortest time after one of these someone has taken to mention Christianity yet.

Luckyguy1983 said:

HappyMcFluffy said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

Perhaps a better analogy would be that the solution to Nazism could only come from within the German community.

To equate the actions of this cultist with the whole of Islam is to equate the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church (or worse) with Christianity. Both are enabled by their respective religions, but they do not represent the whole. Or, more aptly for this site, to say that some recent racist attacks have been caused by Leave voters, therefore all Brexiteers are racists.

This is still a small cult. We have some time. No need for internment camps, no need for any kneejerk measures - let's enable our security services to cut off its head by targetting the recruiters and indoctrinators, and then let's help the moderate Muslim community ensure that it does not grow again.

Wow, that must be the shortest time after one of these someone has taken to mention Christianity yet.

Come on, I waited until after the Nazis!

Luckyguy1983 said:

HappyMcFluffy said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

Perhaps a better analogy would be that the solution to Nazism could only come from within the German community.

To equate the actions of this cultist with the whole of Islam is to equate the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church (or worse) with Christianity. Both are enabled by their respective religions, but they do not represent the whole. Or, more aptly for this site, to say that some recent racist attacks have been caused by Leave voters, therefore all Brexiteers are racists.

This is still a small cult. We have some time. No need for internment camps, no need for any kneejerk measures - let's enable our security services to cut off its head by targetting the recruiters and indoctrinators, and then let's help the moderate Muslim community ensure that it does not grow again.

Wow, that must be the shortest time after one of these someone has taken to mention Christianity yet.

I don't think this site is worse for the use of analogy.

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

You do not defend liberty by crushing it. Sensible precautions at high-profile or large-scale public events such as in Nice, however, are a different matter.

Went to sleep last night with the sound of fireworks resounding through the old town of Antibes just down the coast from Nice and within eyesight and have woken up to this. I have commercial appointments in the town this morning and will report later what I find.

Sadly this time, Bunnco Your Man on the Spot

felix said:

MikeK said:

Time for all of us to wake up: France.
https://twitter.com/hermannkelly/status/753727336827199489

Not really the time to make silly political points.

On the contrary. We may or may not agree with such sentiment but now is the time to make such points, part of the problem we have is we don't address these things, we spout platitudes and move on.

I'm a naturally cautious person, prone to inaction rather than action, for good and Ill.but sometimes underreacting or not reacting is more unhelpful than overreacting, which at least sparks debate.

I think of bjo at times like these, cant be easy to think about these things after his experience in Tunisia.

SouthamObserver said:

TwistedFireStopper said:

not_on_fire said:

blackburn63 said:

MarqueeMark said:

The only thing that gives hope is if at Friday prayers in every mosque around the world, it is made clear this person has not gone to heaven, with his side-order of virgins; but as an Enemy of Islam, has just started his first day of unimaginable torment in Jahannam - Hell.

Anybody who does as he has done will also certainly be an Enemy of Islam. No waiting for the Last Day. No judgement by Allah. Just immediate Jahannam.

Time for the religious, spiritual and political leadership of Islam to take a stand. They have a responsibility. Now.

Won't happen, I suspect you know it. I hear that Islam is the religion of peace, after every atrocity I expect to see a march/protest by "peace loving Muslims", as yet.......

Don't get me wrong, I believe the vast majority of Muslims find this as abhorrent as I do, I just wish they were more vocal to remove any doubt.

When Jo Cox was shot by a white right-winger did other white right-wing supporters go on a protest march?

There were rallies and vigils all around the country, involving both right and left.

And there will be rallies and vigils across France involving moslems and non-moslems.

This latest scumbag had been a common criminal, it turns out. I think the same is true of most (if not all) of the other Moslem attackers there have been in France. The link between crime, prison and radicalisation looks like an obvious place for the various law enforcement and security agencies to start, though they probably are already. But ultimately, the Moslem community has to police itself. If you do not actively tackle, report and condemn advocates of violence and murder you are complicit with them.

A comment was made to me some time ago that Belmarsh was virtually a madrassa.

Of course no one can police thought, or religion, or intent. But there are obvious places to start, and courses of action to take.

david_herdson said:

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

You do not defend liberty by crushing it. Sensible precautions at high-profile or large-scale public events such as in Nice, however, are a different matter.

You can though take the sad decision to exclude from liberty those who decide to associate themselves with a dangerous cult.

Why does France face so many of these attacks? Or have the terrorists just got lucky there?

SouthamObserver said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

The Nazis were beaten by all out war and then substantial post-war re-education and investment (at least in West Germany), not to mention partition. They also had an identifiable leadership and organisational structure.

It's also worth noting that the German people, including many who were active in the Nazi Party, were well aware of the shameful things that had been done in their name - or even by them - and consciously wanted to distance themselves from them as much as possible.

However, the problem with militant Islam is that there's no clean break on the scale down to individual secular practice. In the German case, had every Nazi been prosecuted, millions would have ended up behind bars or dead and there'd have been a lasting division and resentment (including towards those seen as having 'escaped'), but there was no need for that. It's all very well saying that we must shut down "delusional and violent cults" but what does that mean in practice? What counts as a "delusional and violent cult"?

To attack the freedom to practice religion within the law is as much an attack on our values as what took place in Nice. However, it's also the case that if there is sufficient sympathy or tolerance within a population for those who would subvert it then that population as a whole cannot stand. The toleration of intolerance is a mark of a civilised society and so it normally should be - it is usually better to have intolerant voices in the public domain both because it's easier to keep tabs on them and because they provide the warning of safety valves. But there also comes a point where the sheer scale of intolerance is incompatible with a civilised society. There is no easy place to draw the line but then simple solutions are for simple people - and simple people shouldn't be let near the levers of power.

david_herdson said:

SouthamObserver said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

French media saying the driver was French-Tunisian.

From Nice.

Yet again, French people killing French people.

The solution to this can only come from inside the Moslem community.

The solution to Nazism can only come from inside the Nazi community?

Sorry, but delusional and violent cults need to be suppressed in the way Nazism was. Destroy the means to act violently then compulsory re-education as was done with de-nazification in west Germany after world war two with any expression of symbols of the cult punishable by long prison sentences (as happens to this day in Germany if you go around hitler saluting.

It may yet come to internment camps on the Isle of Man as was done in WW2

The Nazis were beaten by all out war and then substantial post-war re-education and investment (at least in West Germany), not to mention partition. They also had an identifiable leadership and organisational structure.

It's also worth noting that the German people, including many who were active in the Nazi Party, were well aware of the shameful things that had been done in their name - or even by them - and consciously wanted to distance themselves from them as much as possible.

However, the problem with militant Islam is that there's no clean break on the scale down to individual secular practice. In the German case, had every Nazi been prosecuted, millions would have ended up behind bars or dead and there'd have been a lasting division and resentment (including towards those seen as having 'escaped'), but there was no need for that. It's all very well saying that we must shut down "delusional and violent cults" but what does that mean in practice? What counts as a "delusional and violent cult"?

To attack the freedom to practice religion within the law is as much an attack on our values as what took place in Nice. However, it's also the case that if there is sufficient sympathy or tolerance within a population for those who would subvert it then that population as a whole cannot stand. The toleration of intolerance is a mark of a civilised society and so it normally should be - it is usually better to have intolerant voices in the public domain both because it's easier to keep tabs on them and because they provide the warning of safety valves. But there also comes a point where the sheer scale of intolerance is incompatible with a civilised society. There is no easy place to draw the line but then simple solutions are for simple people - and simple people shouldn't be let near the levers of power.

A powerful and depressing paragraph.

' simple people shouldn't be let near the levers of power.'

So how did David Lammy become a minister?

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

david_herdson said:

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

You do not defend liberty by crushing it. Sensible precautions at high-profile or large-scale public events such as in Nice, however, are a different matter.

You can though take the sad decision to exclude from liberty those who decide to associate themselves with a dangerous cult.

Be specific. That proposal as you've written it could be taken to mean anything from an irrelevance to a gigantic internment of half or more of the population.

david_herdson said:

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

You do not defend liberty by crushing it. Sensible precautions at high-profile or large-scale public events such as in Nice, however, are a different matter.

Border controls isn't "crushing liberty".

Border controls is protecting liberty within the country, by keeping out aliens who want to commit violence to "crush liberty".

Countries with strict border controls like Australia provide as much liberty for their own citizens as European countries.

Good morning, everyone.

Saw the beginnings of coverage last night, though at the time the death toll was only 30 (I think it's up to 84 confirmed now).

Terrible for France. They're still in the state of emergency imposed after the Bataclan[sp] attacks.

Mr. Observer, I think there might be a wider psychological reason (now) for attacking France. It's been hit with three attacks [grouping together the Hebdo and Bataclan incidents which had other terrorist attacks around or at the same time]. It's only a guess, but I do suspect the terrorists may be deliberately repeatedly targeting France to try and get a deeper impact on the people and politics.

Sean_F said:

SouthamObserver said:

Sean_F said:

Why does France face so many of these attacks? Or have the terrorists just got lucky there?

It has a much bigger Moslem population that is very marginalised. There is a lot of history. One major issue seems to have been the secular French state has not been able to develop - up to now - ways of effectively policing and monitoring criminal acts rooted in religion.

Though the same could be said of parts of this country, eg East London, Luton, Bradford, Rochdale. Here in Luton, there are endless raids and arrests for terrorism.

France's Muslim population is double that of UK's, mainly Arab not South Asian in heritage, so anything happening in the Middle East and the Maghreb will cause more unrest. France is also very very different to the UK, due to the way it aggressively enforces secularism. For example the ban on the burka/niqab has been one of the leading causes of radicalisation of young Muslim men and women. Will McCants the terror/security expert produced a research paper on this very issue.

Mr. Lowlander, and yet, removing the House of Saud could well lead to ISIS taking over that country.

ISIS in possession of Mecca would not be a positive step.

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

david_herdson said:

Lowlander said:

kle4 said:

ToryJim said:

Just waking up to this. Absolutely horrifying. Whats more horrifying though is that unscrupulous politicians will use this as a stick to beat up on Muslims, thus adding to the pile of grievances that fuel this.

That would not be more horrifying, it woukd be a stupid and self defeating g response but not more horrifying.

The problem is that do nothing and these monsters still emerge, do something and they emerge. You crush them but lie a virus a few keep going and they find some new pretext and the idiots join them again. People still blame western actions post ww1 for this shit, which is bloody ridiculous. Such things and more recent actions fuel grievance, but these fools will always find something, and anyone who thinks it justifies their behaviour would have found something else to fuel their grievance.

Surely, the "something" that must be done is known. To ostracise Saudi Arabia and take out its entire royal family and senior clerics.

The problem is not that there is no answer to the problem, it's that the answer is not wanted by the West.

Yes, because creating chaos and political vacuums in the Middle East has worked so well, so far, hasn't it?!

Iraq, Yemen, Libya and Syria are not funding terrorists which present a genuine threat to the West. Although all did in the past before they became chaotic, political vacuums. They may have become geographic hubs for ISIS and Al Qaeda but without the huge swathes of cash funding the groups, their ability to take over parts of these wastelands is lost.

It is the consolidated and stable Saudi Arabia which funds ISIS (and other terror groups) and I think it is unlikely that the NSA do not know exactly who it is in the Saudi regime who are the main players.

I'm naive in all this, what does Saudi Arabia gain from funding ISIS?

Wahhabism is core to the Saudi culture and its promotion (especially its promotion above other creeds of Islam) is fundamental to their stategic aims.

david_herdson said:

The original proposal from the laughably-named 'JennyFreeman' was "regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches." in addition to the international borders. Tell me that such police-state policies wouldn't be crushing of liberty (and the economy, for that matter).

France had to get rid of substantial internal barriers in the nineteenth century precisely because they were throttling the economy.

Lowlander said:

kle4 said:

ToryJim said:

Just waking up to this. Absolutely horrifying. Whats more horrifying though is that unscrupulous politicians will use this as a stick to beat up on Muslims, thus adding to the pile of grievances that fuel this.

That would not be more horrifying, it woukd be a stupid and self defeating g response but not more horrifying.

The problem is that do nothing and these monsters still emerge, do something and they emerge. You crush them but lie a virus a few keep going and they find some new pretext and the idiots join them again. People still blame western actions post ww1 for this shit, which is bloody ridiculous. Such things and more recent actions fuel grievance, but these fools will always find something, and anyone who thinks it justifies their behaviour would have found something else to fuel their grievance.

Surely, the "something" that must be done is known. To ostracise Saudi Arabia and take out its entire royal family and senior clerics.

The problem is not that there is no answer to the problem, it's that the answer is not wanted by the West.

Mental idea. The Saudi regime is undoubtedly awful, but our attempts at regime change have all resulted in worse outcomes.

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

david_herdson said:

Lowlander said:

kle4 said:

ToryJim said:

Just waking up to this. Absolutely horrifying. Whats more horrifying though is that unscrupulous politicians will use this as a stick to beat up on Muslims, thus adding to the pile of grievances that fuel this.

That would not be more horrifying, it woukd be a stupid and self defeating g response but not more horrifying.

The problem is that do nothing and these monsters still emerge, do something and they emerge. You crush them but lie a virus a few keep going and they find some new pretext and the idiots join them again. People still blame western actions post ww1 for this shit, which is bloody ridiculous. Such things and more recent actions fuel grievance, but these fools will always find something, and anyone who thinks it justifies their behaviour would have found something else to fuel their grievance.

Surely, the "something" that must be done is known. To ostracise Saudi Arabia and take out its entire royal family and senior clerics.

The problem is not that there is no answer to the problem, it's that the answer is not wanted by the West.

Yes, because creating chaos and political vacuums in the Middle East has worked so well, so far, hasn't it?!

Iraq, Yemen, Libya and Syria are not funding terrorists which present a genuine threat to the West. Although all did in the past before they became chaotic, political vacuums. They may have become geographic hubs for ISIS and Al Qaeda but without the huge swathes of cash funding the groups, their ability to take over parts of these wastelands is lost.

It is the consolidated and stable Saudi Arabia which funds ISIS (and other terror groups) and I think it is unlikely that the NSA do not know exactly who it is in the Saudi regime who are the main players.

I'm naive in all this, what does Saudi Arabia gain from funding ISIS?

They get religious backing for their corrupt state and lifestyles.

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

david_herdson said:

Lowlander said:

kle4 said:

ToryJim said:

Just waking up to this. Absolutely horrifying. Whats more horrifying though is that unscrupulous politicians will use this as a stick to beat up on Muslims, thus adding to the pile of grievances that fuel this.

That would not be more horrifying, it woukd be a stupid and self defeating g response but not more horrifying.

The problem is that do nothing and these monsters still emerge, do something and they emerge. You crush them but lie a virus a few keep going and they find some new pretext and the idiots join them again. People still blame western actions post ww1 for this shit, which is bloody ridiculous. Such things and more recent actions fuel grievance, but these fools will always find something, and anyone who thinks it justifies their behaviour would have found something else to fuel their grievance.

Surely, the "something" that must be done is known. To ostracise Saudi Arabia and take out its entire royal family and senior clerics.

The problem is not that there is no answer to the problem, it's that the answer is not wanted by the West.

Yes, because creating chaos and political vacuums in the Middle East has worked so well, so far, hasn't it?!

Iraq, Yemen, Libya and Syria are not funding terrorists which present a genuine threat to the West. Although all did in the past before they became chaotic, political vacuums. They may have become geographic hubs for ISIS and Al Qaeda but without the huge swathes of cash funding the groups, their ability to take over parts of these wastelands is lost.

It is the consolidated and stable Saudi Arabia which funds ISIS (and other terror groups) and I think it is unlikely that the NSA do not know exactly who it is in the Saudi regime who are the main players.

I'm naive in all this, what does Saudi Arabia gain from funding ISIS?

Wahhabism is core to the Saudi culture and its promotion (especially its promotion above other creeds of Islam) is fundamental to their stategic aims.

Such a complex situation, we trade with people that are trying to kill us.

And those trade agreements GUARANTEE that the West will not try to influence the Wahhabist creed in Saudi.

Adam Curtis "Bitter Lake" is far from his best work (sprawling, badly edited and far too long) but it's worth watching for some of the deeper background on just how much the US capitulated to the House of Saud after WW2.

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

blackburn63 said:

Lowlander said:

david_herdson said:

Lowlander said:

kle4 said:

ToryJim said:

Just waking up to this. Absolutely horrifying. Whats more horrifying though is that unscrupulous politicians will use this as a stick to beat up on Muslims, thus adding to the pile of grievances that fuel this.

That would not be more horrifying, it woukd be a stupid and self defeating g response but not more horrifying.

The problem is that do nothing and these monsters still emerge, do something and they emerge. You crush them but lie a virus a few keep going and they find some new pretext and the idiots join them again. People still blame western actions post ww1 for this shit, which is bloody ridiculous. Such things and more recent actions fuel grievance, but these fools will always find something, and anyone who thinks it justifies their behaviour would have found something else to fuel their grievance.

Surely, the "something" that must be done is known. To ostracise Saudi Arabia and take out its entire royal family and senior clerics.

The problem is not that there is no answer to the problem, it's that the answer is not wanted by the West.

Yes, because creating chaos and political vacuums in the Middle East has worked so well, so far, hasn't it?!

Iraq, Yemen, Libya and Syria are not funding terrorists which present a genuine threat to the West. Although all did in the past before they became chaotic, political vacuums. They may have become geographic hubs for ISIS and Al Qaeda but without the huge swathes of cash funding the groups, their ability to take over parts of these wastelands is lost.

It is the consolidated and stable Saudi Arabia which funds ISIS (and other terror groups) and I think it is unlikely that the NSA do not know exactly who it is in the Saudi regime who are the main players.

I'm naive in all this, what does Saudi Arabia gain from funding ISIS?

Wahhabism is core to the Saudi culture and its promotion (especially its promotion above other creeds of Islam) is fundamental to their stategic aims.

Such a complex situation, we trade with people that are trying to kill us.

What was it Lenin said about capitalists selling you the rope you hang them with?

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

david_herdson said:

Paul_Bedfordshire said:

david_herdson said:

JennyFreeman said:

Animals in the name of Islamic religion.

Schengen should be dead. The EU needs not just national but regional borders and road blocks. Mandatory passports. Routine searches.

Much like the rest of the world in other words.

WAKE UP EUROPE before more innocent people die

You do not defend liberty by crushing it. Sensible precautions at high-profile or large-scale public events such as in Nice, however, are a different matter.

You can though take the sad decision to exclude from liberty those who decide to associate themselves with a dangerous cult.

Be specific. That proposal as you've written it could be taken to mean anything from an irrelevance to a gigantic internment of half or more of the population.

You could posit that the root of it is Wahabbism and deal with Saudi in the way that we (western allies) dealt with Nazi Germany, in the years before and after 1945.

It might also be worth considering making Ahmadism the established Islamic faith in the UK and the only one permitted to organise.

Unless this sort of thing stops, the kinds of 'solutions' used by Ferdinand and Isabella or in the Reformation (to deal with Catholics) are going to become serious possibilities.