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  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2013
    DL .. Miiliband has hardened his stance according to the Guardian ... we should only interfere if there is a guarantee AQ will not benefit and become a threat to the UK.
    We should write a nice note to AQ and ask them to back off.

    I was under the impression that the Sabre rattling was to stop Assad gassing any more of his nations children.
    Apparently we are running scared of AQ.
    It will take just one more atrocity from Assad and the opinIons will change completely.
    Silly Billy Milly
  • Sunil_Prasannan
    Sunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,077
    JackW said:

    old_labour said:

    Warmongers- 42%

    Peace Parties- 52%

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    YouGov/The Sunil:

    Progressives 49%
    Tories 33%

    Or ....

    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Appeasing Assad Arseholes 52%

    Yebbut any military action by the West could - could - result in many more civilian casualties than the original chemical attack (alleged or otherwise).
  • NickPalmer
    NickPalmer Posts: 21,724
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    @RichardT

    It's one of those topics that really doesn't get me excited, at various stages on here, and elsewhere I've either accused of being an Islamophobe or someone has said, I'm so English/British from my posts that I can't possibly be grandchild of immigrants to this country.

    It gets so confusing and the discussion is so binary.

    Either you're a racist if you want some control on immigration or you're wanting to see the British enslaved if you're in favour of some immigration.

    LOL. I can see that. My attitude tends to be that Englishness is a state of mind not of skin colour. Its all about shared cultural references.

    Actually one of the things I like about the internet and discussion groups like this is that you can honestly be colour blind unless someone actually makes a point of talking about their background. I like to think it confirms my views of race and ethnicity being secondary to cultural influences.
    Yes, there are two separate discussions. One is "Is it horrifying that the proportion of white people in Britain is going down?" Most people nowadays say "meh" to that: worrying that people are the wrong colour is very much last century, and MigrationWatch is on a loser when they bang on about a minority being white in 50 years or whatever. The second is "Is it horrifying that our culture is changing, or that a mixture of separate cultures is emerging?" A lot of people say yes to that, and it's a big part of what fuels UKIP. I know UKIP people who are entirely relaxed about, say, people of Indian descent who like cricket, favour traditional ideas on family values and are appalled by fundamentalists.

    There are clearly some cultural customs which are incompatible with fundamental ideas of human rights - FGM is the obvious example. Others are no big deal, or arguably an improvement on British traditions - I'd argue that many immigrant traditions for treatment of the elderly are superior to traditional British attitudes.

    The tricky bit is what to do when we think a practice dubious but people seem to want to do though may be under pressure - women wearing hijabs, for instance. I don't think that simply insisting that all immigrants should adopt every bit of our culture makes any sense, but narrowing the argument to this area helps take it away from the racists vs slavers stereotypes that TSE points out.
  • Plato
    Plato Posts: 15,724
    Where is Ed Balls?

    Tory Treasury @ToryTreasury
    OECD forecast 0.9% UK growth in Q3 and 0.8% in Q4, faster than all G7 except Canada in Q3 and fastest in G7 in Q4. Still a long way to go
  • JackW
    JackW Posts: 14,787
    MikeSmithson said:

    Just off for another long day on the beach.

    The weater here, 5km north of the Spanish border is perfect.

    Mike Smithson trying to emulate the Cuba/Florida swim - Don't forget Mike - SLIP - SLOP - SLAP

    Slip on the speedos - Slop on the grease - Slap on the water proof wig !!



  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    tim.. no one would attempt to impersonate you .. too many characters involved
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Plato said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    @RichardT

    It's one of those topics that really doesn't get me excited, at various stages on here, and elsewhere I've either accused of being an Islamophobe or someone has said, I'm so English/British from my posts that I can't possibly be grandchild of immigrants to this country.

    It gets so confusing and the discussion is so binary.

    Either you're a racist if you want some control on immigration or you're wanting to see the British enslaved if you're in favour of some immigration.

    So why then ignore a huge poll full of nuances just because its from May. You're arguing with yourself and losing.
    I am not ignoring it, it will be covered in the next few days.

    I just think there were more important topics to discuss before that.

    I've explained why I considered them more important.
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    Alanbrooke said:

    @Charles

    "Although if Vodafone had had to pay tax then it would not have sold the business"

    Charles I'm pretty sure lots of businesses were bought and sold prior to 2005. Companies sell them if there is no strategic fit or they can deploy the cash better elsewhere. Vodaphone's issues with Verizon have been running for years so a sale would have taken place irrespective of what the tax laws were. In Plc world businesses aren't kept just because of tax laws. It's just another example of Labour getting panned by multinationals and the taxpayer picking up the tab. The question now is will the coalition change the law ?

    Strategic fit and net proceeds after tax.

    If the npv of the cash flows > than the after tax proceeds it doesn't make sense to sell. The delay in doing the deal (it's been talked about for years) was always value. Voda's ceo is on the record as saying he wouldn't have done the deal if he had had to pay tax on the proceeds. It's possible he's lying, I suppose, but I would assume not without evidence to the contrary
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Those Irish are rascals aren't they.

    The free wifi password in the Press Box for the Ireland v England match is "Bangalore2011"
  • Plato
    Plato Posts: 15,724
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Plato said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    @RichardT

    It's one of those topics that really doesn't get me excited, at various stages on here, and elsewhere I've either accused of being an Islamophobe or someone has said, I'm so English/British from my posts that I can't possibly be grandchild of immigrants to this country.

    It gets so confusing and the discussion is so binary.

    Either you're a racist if you want some control on immigration or you're wanting to see the British enslaved if you're in favour of some immigration.

    So why then ignore a huge poll full of nuances just because its from May. You're arguing with yourself and losing.
    I am not ignoring it, it will be covered in the next few days.

    I just think there were more important topics to discuss before that.

    I've explained why I considered them more important.
    A random YouGov is more interesting? Yeah right. Pfft.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Plato said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Plato said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    @RichardT

    It's one of those topics that really doesn't get me excited, at various stages on here, and elsewhere I've either accused of being an Islamophobe or someone has said, I'm so English/British from my posts that I can't possibly be grandchild of immigrants to this country.

    It gets so confusing and the discussion is so binary.

    Either you're a racist if you want some control on immigration or you're wanting to see the British enslaved if you're in favour of some immigration.

    So why then ignore a huge poll full of nuances just because its from May. You're arguing with yourself and losing.
    I am not ignoring it, it will be covered in the next few days.

    I just think there were more important topics to discuss before that.

    I've explained why I considered them more important.
    A random YouGov is more interesting? Yeah right. Pfft.
    It isn't a random yougov poll, it is the first poll after the previous poll showed a 6% increase in the Labour lead.

    It was always going to be covered.
  • DavidL
    DavidL Posts: 55,867
    richardDodd said:

    DL .. Miiliband has hardened his stance according to the Guardian ... we should only interfere if there is a guarantee AQ will not benefit and become a threat to the UK.
    We should write a nice note to AQ and ask them to back off.

    I was under the impression that the Sabre rattling was to stop Assad gassing any more of his nations children.
    Apparently we are running scared of AQ.
    It will take just one more atrocity from Assad and the opinIons will change completely.
    Silly Billy Milly

    The collapse of Syria into another Yemen or Sudan with no effective government and gangs of warlords imposing radical Islam on the poor inhabitants is serious and real.

    Option 1 was a slap targetted at chemical weapon facilities and delivery systems. As the general explained this morning it is really too late to do that, the dithering has gone on too long.

    Option 2 is to punish the regime that used them by bringing it down. This now seems the favoured option but in my view seems to completely ignore what happens next.

    In Iraq there were large numbers of troops on the ground but attempts to create a stable, peaceful democracy completely failed. In Syria we are, as in Libya, not having troops on the ground. The composition of the opposition is therefore a concern and the closer you look the more concerning it is.

    I really don't see any good options here.
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @Charles

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/census-data/2011-census-data/2011-first-release/first-release--quality-assurance-and-methodology-papers/response-rates-in-the-2011-census.pdf


    No idea where you got your figure of census completion falling below 60%, sure you aren't confusing it with MMR take up in those mansion tax affected areas?

    It was a press report at the time and referred to either RBKC or Knightsbridge - high foreign ownership - so clearly not representative.
  • JackW
    JackW Posts: 14,787
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    JackW said:

    old_labour said:

    Warmongers- 42%

    Peace Parties- 52%

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    YouGov/The Sunil:

    Progressives 49%
    Tories 33%

    Or ....

    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Appeasing Assad Arseholes 52%

    Yebbut any military action by the West could - could - result in many more civilian casualties than the original chemical attack (alleged or otherwise).
    Actually "Sunil" I have grave misgivings over military action but we are faced with two unenviable choices. I don't envy the government's choice.

    However for me the balance has come down on favouring a military option accompanied by an expansive diplomatic and legal front against the Assad dictatorship.

  • old_labour
    old_labour Posts: 3,238
    Ezra Klein in the Washington Post has claimed that outside bombing increases civilian casualties by 40%.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/08/31/could-bombing-syria-kill-more-civilians-than-it-saves/
    JackW said:

    old_labour said:

    Warmongers- 42%

    Peace Parties- 52%

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    YouGov/The Sunil:

    Progressives 49%
    Tories 33%

    Or ....

    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Appeasing Assad Arseholes 52%

  • Plato
    Plato Posts: 15,724
    In 1950 the East German government claimed the Americans were dropping potato beetles out of planes over GDR fields in an attempt to sabotage their crops. Was it true, or an example of Cold War propaganda?

    Lovely stuff http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23929124?ocid=socialflow_twitter_bbcnewsmagazine
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Just returned.

    Voters being pro-wind farm, eh? Well, they also want to bring back hanging and leave the EU.
  • RichardNabavi
    RichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    tim said:

    Can we have a thread on the coalition govts conspiracy to hide the scale of immigration by abolishing the census?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2409436/The-census-axed-Critics-accuse-Government-trying-hide-truth-immigration.html

    Or a thread on Ed Balls' idea of a zero-based spending review and why tim thinks thinks the census should be exempt from it.
  • Grandiose
    Grandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited September 2013
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    astateofdenmark said:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/sep/02/good-news-bad-bank-england-mark-carney

    "It seems perverse, but Mark Carney could do with some bad news on the economy. Ever since the Bank of England's new governor arrived, the data has been relentlessly upbeat, and that's not so good if your message is that a fragile recovery requires interest rates to be held ultra-low for the next three years."

    On 870 grand a year, Carney doesn't need to worry about interest on any savings!
    Inflationary pressures on the horizon - but not yet. But recall that if inflation does rise, rates can and will go up regardless of unemployment.
  • DavidL
    DavidL Posts: 55,867
    tim said:

    Can we have a thread on the coalition govts conspiracy to hide the scale of immigration by abolishing the census?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2409436/The-census-axed-Critics-accuse-Government-trying-hide-truth-immigration.html

    You think the Coalition will now last 3 terms? That is a change of heart. Coalition still in power in 2021. You have had worse ideas.
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    DL There are no good options at all but not being at the options table is only making it worse.
    Thanks Ed
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato.. Did they all have little parachutes on..
  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
  • JackW
    JackW Posts: 14,787
    tim said:

    Can we have a thread on the coalition govts conspiracy to hide the scale of immigration by abolishing the census?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2409436/The-census-axed-Critics-accuse-Government-trying-hide-truth-immigration.html

    Except of course according to you the next census would likely be undertaken during the majesty of a future Labour administration.

    Labour government immigration figures anyone ?!?

  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,290
    Charles said:

    Voda's ceo is on the record as saying he wouldn't have done the deal if he had had to pay tax on the proceeds. It's possible he's lying, I suppose, but I would assume not without evidence to the contrary

    Has the deal actually closed yet? He's hardly going to go around saying that the price was so good he would sell at 20% less, is he?
  • Plato
    Plato Posts: 15,724
    richardDodd said:

    Plato.. Did they all have little parachutes on..

    Given cockroaches survive nuclear attacks...
  • old_labour
    old_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited September 2013
    I like how Miliband tail is setting the terms of debate in the UK, Europe and the USA.

    If DM were leader, there would be a lot of mutilated, baby body parts lying in the Syrian dust.
    richardDodd said:

    DL There are no good options at all but not being at the options table is only making it worse.
    Thanks Ed

  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    edited September 2013
    Secret agent Boyd Rankin seems to be performing as hoped over in Dublin...

    Jade Dernbach not looking so bad now, is he! ;)

    Edit: I obviously just posted that to gee him up and encourage him to get his first wicket for England.
  • RichardNabavi
    RichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    If Francis Maude claimed he could save £10 billion a year by abolishing the use of vowels by central govt you'd believe him.
    In fact you'd probably change your name to Rchrd Nbv in solidarity

    The savings in departmental spending are ahead of target, so, yes, I do think Francis Maude is doing an exceptionally good job. Mind you, the last lot did such a spectacularly bad job* in public procurement that there's plenty of 'low-hanging fruit' as they say.

    * This of course is not surprising, given that not only were the last lot completely uninterested in value for money, they actively liked to boast about how much they were spending. Civil servants, and suppliers, are not stupid, and took the hint.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,251
    Polruan said:

    Apologies if this is old news: according to Russian wire and now Bloomberg, two missiles launched from a US ship in east Med; also reports of a gas pipeline in Syria exploding.

    [edit for link]

    Jon Passantino ✔ @passantino

    WIRE: Russia reports missiles fired in Mediterranean (Interfax) pic.twitter.com/RnKIl96hwq

    [further update] - missile launches reported but no corresponding impacts detected.

    This is getting complex: the Israelis say they detected no ballistic missile launch or in the air. And the Israelis have very good detection systems. Who to believe?

    Personally, with the little information we have atm, I'd go with Russian sensor error / misanalysis, or alternatively a potentially unwise system test by the Americans.

    But if (and it is a big if) Obama has ordered limited strikes against Syria before Congress has had a say, then he better have a superb reason. If not, there is no way Congress will back him at a later vote.

    You don't give someone a say on an action, and then do the action before they've had their say. The only excuse could be a severe threat against US interests that had to be dealt with.
  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    If Francis Maude claimed he could save £10 billion a year by abolishing the use of vowels by central govt you'd believe him.
    In fact you'd probably change your name to Rchrd Nbv in solidarity

    Non-sarcastically, if governments of English-speaking countries were serious about improving productivity and social mobility they'd enact radical spelling reform.
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    OL .. Because Milli says something it does not mean it will happen.. see any of his earthchanging speehes..any of them.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    @Neil wins this years Rogerdamus award.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,806
    Can we all laugh at Manchester United

    Marouane Fellaini transfer can't mask Manchester United's deadline-day farce

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/03/manchester-united-marouane-fellaini-everton
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,251
    old_labour said:

    I like how Miliband tail is setting the terms of debate in the UK, Europe and the USA.

    If DM were leader, there would be a lot of mutilated, baby body parts lying in the Syrian dust.

    richardDodd said:

    DL There are no good options at all but not being at the options table is only making it worse.
    Thanks Ed

    There already are lots of mutilated, baby body parts lying in the Syrian dust. And lots of complete bodies that had been gassed.

    And - the headline news this morning - 2 million refugees, up a million in just six months.

    2 million.

    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of any allied strike against Syria, just think of the pressure that number of refugees is causing for the surrounding countries. We need to be helping those countries aid the refugees, fast.
  • AndreaParma_82
    AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited September 2013
    Last night's report about Amanjit Jhund being selected by Labour in East Dunbartonshire are confirmed.

    Labour have now at least 88 PPCs in place in their 106 battleground seats.

    The missing targets are

    Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
    Carmarthen West & South Pembrokeshire (Sept 7)
    Argyll & Bute (Sept 7)
    Pudsey (Sept 8)
    Elmet & Rothwell (Sept 8)
    Pendle (Sept 15)
    Dundee East (October 1)
    Bradford East
    Dewsbury
    Brent Central
    Brentford & Isleworth
    Keighley
    Harrow East
    Ealing Central & Acton
    Carmarthen East & Dinefwr
    Cleethorpes
    Ilford North
    Brigg & Goole



  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    edmundintokyo said:

    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
    There's 2 million refugees... They should be offered help at the closest point to Syria so they are able (and willing) to return once it's safe..
  • Grandiose
    Grandiose Posts: 2,323
    If I were UKIP, I'd be very worried by the fact I wasn't getting credit for consistently arguing something that is popular in the face of some rather imperfect conduct by the three main parties. It doesn't bode well for the future.
  • RichardNabavi
    RichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @AndreaParma_82 - On a separate subject, can you tell us a bit about what is happening in Italian politics? The UK media seem to have completely lost interest since the election earlier this year.

    In particular, what is happening the the Five Star Movement? I know they've collapsed in the polls, but presumably the Five Star deputies and senators are still in office - do they vote as a block on agreed positions, and if so do they support the government or oppose it?
  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
    There's 2 million refugees... They should be offered help at the closest point to Syria so they are able (and willing) to return once it's safe..
    It's not reasonable to expect countries like Lebanon and Iraq to be taking in those numbers of people. If the UK is serious about helping Syrian civilians, they'll take in their share of refugees.
  • SimonStClare
    SimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    JosiasJessop said:

    old_labour said:

    I like how Miliband tail is setting the terms of debate in the UK, Europe and the USA.

    If DM were leader, there would be a lot of mutilated, baby body parts lying in the Syrian dust.

    richardDodd said:

    DL There are no good options at all but not being at the options table is only making it worse.
    Thanks Ed

    There already are lots of mutilated, baby body parts lying in the Syrian dust. And lots of complete bodies that had been gassed.

    And - the headline news this morning - 2 million refugees, up a million in just six months.

    2 million.

    Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of any allied strike against Syria, just think of the pressure that number of refugees is causing for the surrounding countries. We need to be helping those countries aid the refugees, fast.
    As you say, the UN has announced today that the Syrian refugee numbers have increased to 2 million, a 27% increase over the past 6 months.

    Presently they are based in neighbouring countries and no doubt will return once some form of ‘stability’ is achieved, but until then, countries taking in these refugees should be given international aid, as indeed the UN Dept for refugees has today called for.

    It’s just a shame that the UNSC’s inaction over for the past 2 years has lead to this very situation.

  • dugarbandier
    dugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    edmundintokyo said:

    tim said:

    @RichardNabavi

    If Francis Maude claimed he could save £10 billion a year by abolishing the use of vowels by central govt you'd believe him.
    In fact you'd probably change your name to Rchrd Nbv in solidarity

    Non-sarcastically, if governments of English-speaking countries were serious about improving productivity and social mobility they'd enact radical spelling reform.
    the cost to the NHS in daily mail related apoplexy could be prohibitive :)

    of course none of the PPE politicians are remotely interested in mobilizing their offspring downwards, so indeed none of them are serious about social mobility...
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    We have already had a few arrivals as families of some Syrian doctors in our dept.
    edmundintokyo said:

    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    edmundintokyo said:

    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
    There's 2 million refugees... They should be offered help at the closest point to Syria so they are able (and willing) to return once it's safe..
    It's not reasonable to expect countries like Lebanon and Iraq to be taking in those numbers of people. If the UK is serious about helping Syrian civilians, they'll take in their share of refugees.
    Why ?... they are only temporary (hopefully) refugees, which once the situation in Syria is settled can return home. If they come to European countries, then there is rather high likelihood they will stay. Even if 20 countries provided shelter that would be 100,000 people in each country, which would be a huge burden in terms of housing, shelter, jobs and education, especially when these people have nothing, and are likely to suffer from ill-health and ill-education.

    Better to provide help to Lebanon, Iraq and Turkey to help these people in a safe temporary enirvonment where resources can be directly targeted for their needs. That will be better for those people, and for Syria as a whole in the long run.

    I'm not again a goodwill gesture of providing a reasonable level of asylum for those in real need of it of course.
  • SimonStClare
    SimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013
    edmundintokyo said:

    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    JackW said:


    Saving Syrian Babies 42%

    Sadly nobody in British politics seems to be talking about taking in refugees, which would be the guaranteed, cost-effective, low-risk way to save Syrian civilians.
    There's 2 million refugees... They should be offered help at the closest point to Syria so they are able (and willing) to return once it's safe..
    It's not reasonable to expect countries like Lebanon and Iraq to be taking in those numbers of people. If the UK is serious about helping Syrian civilians, they'll take in their share of refugees.
    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning) or it's ‘fair share’ - what measures should GB take to ensure they return? – But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country from which they could more easily return home?
  • AndreaParma_82
    AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited September 2013
    @Richard

    They oppose (almost) everything. Otherwise they would be expelled...

    The government is always very precarious. Even more after Silvio's verdict. The Senate election select committee should meet this month to decide on Silvio being disqualified as Senator. Guess what could happen to the government if PD vote for the disqualification....

    PD will elect their leader on November 24th. Renzi is the big favourite. Other runners so far Cuperlo (close to D'Alema), Civati ("my" MP. Standing on a renewal ticket but coming from DS rather than DC like Renzi) and Pittella (an MEP).

    Latest polls:
    - PD 27.3% PDL 26.3% 5 Stars 17.7% Vendola (Left) 5.5% Monti 5.5 Lega 4.9% Fratelli d'Italia (right, Silvio's allies) 3%
    - PDL 27.9 PD 24% 5 Stars 20,1 Vendola 6.6 Lega 5.1 Monti 4.5 Fratelli Italia 1.5
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    YouGov ‏@YouGov 8m
    Minimal political fallout from David Cameron's 'humiliating defeat' over Syria - http://y-g.co/18zrptO

    Funny... those rampers on Thursday night called that a bit wrong didn't they..
  • dugarbandier
    dugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    not living in a tent could be a factor?
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    AndreaParma_82 said:

    The Senate election select committee should meet this month to decide on Silvio being disqualified as Senator. Guess what could happen to the government if PD vote for the disqualification....

    Paddy Power has 8/1 on another general election in Italy this year...

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/european-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1195164
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    edited September 2013
    ''Funny... those rampers on Thursday night called that a bit wrong didn't they.''

    As Boris Johnson pointed out recently, the horsesh*t that's been written about this from commentariat in recent days has been waist deep.
  • RichardNabavi
    RichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @Andrea - Thanks. That's very helpful.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,251
    I seem to have missed that a Daily Telegraph editorial has come out in favour of HS2.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/10281048/Britain-should-stay-ontrack-with-HS2.html

    I wonder if there's been an outbreak of brain fever in the DT offices ...
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Quite right. The middle east is a cesspit. Anyone with any yearning for freedom, peace and prosperity wants to leave.

    If only they had governments and cultures that encouraged diversity and free thought then maybe things could be different.
    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    "But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?"

    I assume you were arguing that Bosnian refugees would've preferred to live in a refugee camp on the border rather than move to Sweden?
    What a silly argument.

  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    SimonStClare said:


    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning)

    Presumably cost per-person wouldn't vary much, so the number is independent of the cost-effectiveness. Note that by allowing these people to work and pay taxes, it may be possible to make this number negative.
    SimonStClare said:


    or it's ‘fair share’

    Hard to say, but let's throw some numbers around. Say you have 1,000,000 needing somewhere to go, spread per population among relatively rich countries with a total population of 1,000 million, you get 1,000 per million population, or 64,000 for the UK. To the extent that there are more or less people needing refuge (probably more), that other countries have more or less ability to take more people, and that refugees have more or less ability to function in the UK compared to other possible places, that number would be higher or lower.
    SimonStClare said:

    what measures should GB take to ensure they return?

    I understand the UK has some kind of immigration system.
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Quite right. The middle east is a cesspit. Anyone with any yearning for freedom, peace and prosperity wants to leave.

    If only they had governments and cultures that encouraged diversity and free thought then maybe things could be different.


    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    "But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?"

    I assume you were arguing that Bosnian refugees would've preferred to live in a refugee camp on the border rather than move to Sweden?
    What a silly argument.

    Just wait until with fracking the bottom falls out of the demand for middle east oil...
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    edmundintokyo said:

    SimonStClare said:


    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning)

    Presumably cost per-person wouldn't vary much, so the number is independent of the cost-effectiveness. Note that by allowing these people to work and pay taxes, it may be possible to make this number negative.
    SimonStClare said:


    or it's ‘fair share’

    Hard to say, but let's throw some numbers around. Say you have 1,000,000 needing somewhere to go, spread per population among relatively rich countries with a total population of 1,000 million, you get 1,000 per million population, or 64,000 for the UK. To the extent that there are more or less people needing refuge (probably more), that other countries have more or less ability to take more people, and that refugees have more or less ability to function in the UK compared to other possible places, that number would be higher or lower.
    SimonStClare said:

    what measures should GB take to ensure they return?

    I understand the UK has some kind of immigration system.
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you.
    I'm sure the young unemployed of this country agree with your reasoning, and those on housing lists as well....

  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    Charles said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    @Charles

    "Although if Vodafone had had to pay tax then it would not have sold the business"

    Charles I'm pretty sure lots of businesses were bought and sold prior to 2005. Companies sell them if there is no strategic fit or they can deploy the cash better elsewhere. Vodaphone's issues with Verizon have been running for years so a sale would have taken place irrespective of what the tax laws were. In Plc world businesses aren't kept just because of tax laws. It's just another example of Labour getting panned by multinationals and the taxpayer picking up the tab. The question now is will the coalition change the law ?

    Strategic fit and net proceeds after tax.

    If the npv of the cash flows > than the after tax proceeds it doesn't make sense to sell. The delay in doing the deal (it's been talked about for years) was always value. Voda's ceo is on the record as saying he wouldn't have done the deal if he had had to pay tax on the proceeds. It's possible he's lying, I suppose, but I would assume not without evidence to the contrary
    Yeah, that's the theory, but CEOs come and go. My experience of plcs is if the CEO wants something to happen the npv s change to suit his opinion. Anyone imagining this is just about pure numbers is a little naive - like Gordon Brown.
  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    SimonStClare said:


    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning)

    Presumably cost per-person wouldn't vary much, so the number is independent of the cost-effectiveness. Note that by allowing these people to work and pay taxes, it may be possible to make this number negative.
    SimonStClare said:


    or it's ‘fair share’

    Hard to say, but let's throw some numbers around. Say you have 1,000,000 needing somewhere to go, spread per population among relatively rich countries with a total population of 1,000 million, you get 1,000 per million population, or 64,000 for the UK. To the extent that there are more or less people needing refuge (probably more), that other countries have more or less ability to take more people, and that refugees have more or less ability to function in the UK compared to other possible places, that number would be higher or lower.
    SimonStClare said:

    what measures should GB take to ensure they return?

    I understand the UK has some kind of immigration system.
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you.
    I'm sure the young unemployed of this country agree with your reasoning, and those on housing lists as well....

    So when it came to risking British lives, and many Syrian ones, dropping bombs in an effort to help these people, even with a strong possibility of back-firing and doing damage, it was an urgent humanitarian necessity. But when the cost turns out to be explaining the lump of labour fallacy to somebody or building a house that might spoil somebody's view, it turns out not to be very important after all.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?
  • SimonStClare
    SimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    @EiT - "If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you."

    I’m well aware of the problems faced by these countries taking in Syrian refugees – which is why I posted up thread and supported, the UN’s agency for Refugees call for International assistance to these very same countries.

    NB. Cheers for the comprehensive reply. – However, Slackbladder’s comment below is imho, by far the best solution to Syria’s long term best interests.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Quite right. The middle east is a cesspit. Anyone with any yearning for freedom, peace and prosperity wants to leave.

    If only they had governments and cultures that encouraged diversity and free thought then maybe things could be different.


    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    "But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?"

    I assume you were arguing that Bosnian refugees would've preferred to live in a refugee camp on the border rather than move to Sweden?
    What a silly argument.

    Just wait until with fracking the bottom falls out of the demand for middle east oil...

    Everyone is going to stop driving post fracking are they
    The major impact will be on coal won't it.?
    USA will soon be self sufficient :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22524597

    Yes China and India may still buy the arab oil - but they don't give a toss about what goes down there nor will they intervene - they are like a big Ed Miliband.


  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    SimonStClare said:

    @EiT - "If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you."

    I’m well aware of the problems faced by these countries taking in Syrian refugees – which is why I posted up thread and supported, the UN’s agency for Refugees call for International assistance to these very same countries.

    Fair enough - apologies for the snark. To rephrase non-snarkily, I think the reply to this question is obvious.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    wacist !! ;)

    Coming soon to football too..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2408780/Tiago-Ilori-play-England-FA-arrange-talks-new-Liverpool-defender.html

    "The FA are to ask for talks with Liverpool’s new defender Tiago Ilori after it emerged he is eligible for the England national team.
    Ilori was born in England but has represented the Portuguese national team at junior level throughout his career in the country with Sporting."
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    edmundintokyo said:

    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    SimonStClare said:


    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning)

    Presumably cost per-person wouldn't vary much, so the number is independent of the cost-effectiveness. Note that by allowing these people to work and pay taxes, it may be possible to make this number negative.
    SimonStClare said:


    or it's ‘fair share’

    Hard to say, but let's throw some numbers around. Say you have 1,000,000 needing somewhere to go, spread per population among relatively rich countries with a total population of 1,000 million, you get 1,000 per million population, or 64,000 for the UK. To the extent that there are more or less people needing refuge (probably more), that other countries have more or less ability to take more people, and that refugees have more or less ability to function in the UK compared to other possible places, that number would be higher or lower.
    SimonStClare said:

    what measures should GB take to ensure they return?

    I understand the UK has some kind of immigration system.
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you.
    I'm sure the young unemployed of this country agree with your reasoning, and those on housing lists as well....

    So when it came to risking British lives, and many Syrian ones, dropping bombs in an effort to help these people, even with a strong possibility of back-firing and doing damage, it was an urgent humanitarian necessity. But when the cost turns out to be explaining the lump of labour fallacy to somebody or building a house that might spoil somebody's view, it turns out not to be very important after all.
    So much easier doing that from an expensive Tokyo apartment, and in a well paid job though, don't ya think?

    All those thickos without jobs.... if only they were as smart as you, and had the facts eh..
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Quite right. The middle east is a cesspit. Anyone with any yearning for freedom, peace and prosperity wants to leave.

    If only they had governments and cultures that encouraged diversity and free thought then maybe things could be different.


    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    "But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?"

    I assume you were arguing that Bosnian refugees would've preferred to live in a refugee camp on the border rather than move to Sweden?
    What a silly argument.

    Just wait until with fracking the bottom falls out of the demand for middle east oil...

    Everyone is going to stop driving post fracking are they
    The major impact will be on coal won't it.?
    USA will soon be self sufficient :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22524597

    Yes China and India may still buy the arab oil - but they don't give a toss about what goes down there nor will they intervene - they are like a big Ed Miliband.


    US oil production will rise by 3.9 million barrels per day, OPEC production is 35 million bpd.

    Which introduces some perspective to your naive view.

    If the USA doesn't need arab oil - do you think they are going to repeat the gulf wars ?

    The just won't care anymore - as proved by Obama not giving a toss about Syria.


  • MBoy
    MBoy Posts: 104
    JosiasJessop said:

    I seem to have missed that a Daily Telegraph editorial has come out in favour of HS2.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/10281048/Britain-should-stay-ontrack-with-HS2.html

    I wonder if there's been an outbreak of brain fever in the DT offices ...

    {falls over backwards}

    How do they reconcile this with the avalanche of anti HS2 commentary they've had over the last 5 years?????? The kippers will be furious at their propaganda rag!
  • TCPoliticalBetting
    TCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Quite right. The middle east is a cesspit. Anyone with any yearning for freedom, peace and prosperity wants to leave.

    If only they had governments and cultures that encouraged diversity and free thought then maybe things could be different.


    tim said:

    @SimonStClare.

    "But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?"

    I assume you were arguing that Bosnian refugees would've preferred to live in a refugee camp on the border rather than move to Sweden?
    What a silly argument.

    Just wait until with fracking the bottom falls out of the demand for middle east oil...
    Everyone is going to stop driving post fracking are they
    The major impact will be on coal won't it.?
    Tim, this is from Telegraph "the fracking boom that sent US gas prices plunging could be about to do the same for oil. Fracking, or hydraulic fracturing, is a process that can be used to extract oil or gas from rock formations. It involves the injection of water, chemicals and sand into rock formation to cause cracks that release the oil.
    US oil production has now surged to a 20-year high, boost by production of shale oil...."http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodities/9905821/Fracking-to-the-rescue-as-US-oil-production-hits-20-year-high.html

    Also "The former forecasting head of the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development believes the shale gas revolution could spark a slide in oil prices over the next 10 years. In a report written with Puma Energy and seen by The Times, Dr John Llewellyn described the invention of 'fracking' to extract the gas as 'game changing technology'. "
    http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/shale-gas-revolution-could-halve-oil-price-within-a-decade/a688620
  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @JackW

    'Labour government immigration figures anyone ?!?'

    They were only out by a couple of zeros in 2004,pretty good as Labour forecasts go.

    'The coalition is said to be wary that the last Labour government predicted in 2004 there would be no more than 13,000 immigrants coming into the UK from Poland and other eastern European countries – instead, over 1m came to Britain.'


  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The invention of 'fracking' to extract the gas is a 'game changing technology''.

    Britain is benefiting from the Middle East rush to diversify whilst the going is good.

    From oil to Sheffield United - that's some diversification.
  • TCPoliticalBetting
    TCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    tim said:

    Anyone thinking of taking Jeremy Warners nonsense on immigration and productivity seriously should read this and then find something else to do

    NIESR ‏@NIESRorg
    BLOG: Migration and productivity http://bit.ly/1cBmwEO

    Tim, Niesr are headed by Jonathan Portes who advocated more immigration when he worked for the UK Govt.
  • taffys
    taffys Posts: 9,753
    Thinking about it, Fracking is double bubble for the UK.

    We have more control of our energy production and we are also a fave destination for Middle East investment looking to preserve its value.

    I wonder if our large muslim population helps here.
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,251
    MBoy said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    I seem to have missed that a Daily Telegraph editorial has come out in favour of HS2.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/10281048/Britain-should-stay-ontrack-with-HS2.html

    I wonder if there's been an outbreak of brain fever in the DT offices ...

    {falls over backwards}

    How do they reconcile this with the avalanche of anti HS2 commentary they've had over the last 5 years?????? The kippers will be furious at their propaganda rag!
    Surprisingly, the comments below the article appear to be rather against the editorial. I've started a cost Bingo with such comments, to see how quickly we get all the fantastical costs mentioned. 50 billion, check. 80 billion, check. 73 billion, check. 150 billion, check.

    I'm still waiting for the first person to take it up to a trillion. Goodness knows what they'd include to get to that amount ...
  • AndreaParma_82
    AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    2 Danish actors from The Killing and Borgen will guest star in 100th Midsomer Murders episodes titled The Killings at Copenhagen
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    On the Syrian refugee issue, if Syria depopulates without an ability to recover from that, it will forever remain a failed state, as it won't have the workers (certainly skilled workers) to function once fighting has stopped.

    Another very good reason why they should remain in the region (but safe and looked after).
  • Tykejohnno
    Tykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    richardDodd said:

    tim.. no one would attempt to impersonate you .. too many characters involved

    Ios ?
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 3m
    Interesting new Scottish #IndyRef poll due out tomorrow with, I'm told, markedly different figures from yesterday's Panelbase 1% YES lead

    I'm shocked...shocked I tell you....
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    TKJO.. That takes care of the offie character .. who could play the Cheshire Farmer..and then the tricky one...dadum.. the one who lives in the basement..
  • TCPoliticalBetting
    TCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    I'll put it in a pretty graph so it's easier for tim to understand.
    http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AO758_SAUDIO_G_20130729182105.jpg

    Looking at the US in isolation is a nonsense.
    I believe you may be aware of Chinese and Indian industrialisation.
    Energy demand -world.
    http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2008/9/3/saupload_energy_demand_forecast.png
    Well growth in India is slowing to 4%. Getting close to normal developed countries levels. Though they think it will be a bit better the following year.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/business/global/indian-rupee.html?_r=0
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    "If the USA doesn't need arab oil - do you think they are going to repeat the gulf wars ?

    The just won't care anymore - as proved by Obama not giving a toss about Syria."

    Israel just going to go away is it, or you think US politicians are suddenly going to lose interest?

    What have Israel done in Egypt and Syria ? Nowt - as it has not yet affected them.

    There are no Tony Blair types with sword and crucifix riding to sort out these places - as they are less important than they were.

  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    Bloody Hell have they no shame ?

    Prescott junior to be PPC, yet another another appointment in Labour's family business. Does everyone have to be related ? Even mafia families have openings for outsiders. For people who campaign against the privilege of birth they've got a huge blindspot when it affects their own. Hyprocisy run rampant.


    http://order-order.com/2013/09/03/prescotts-son-in-running-to-become-labour-mp/
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    OT. Eagle. You're doing a very good job stepping in for your mentor. Your threads are always readable and informative. You're still over zealous with your black marker but acting on someone else's behalf can't be easy
  • john_zims
    john_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Alanbrooke

    'Bloody Hell have they no shame ?'

    That's the Labour aristocracy in action.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    Alanbrooke said:


    Prescott junior to be PPC, yet another another appointment in Labour's family business. Does everyone have to be related ?

    Want to bet that after the next election Labour will return fewer MPs who are children of MPs than the Tories?
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    JZ .. Prescott=Shame.. does not compute..
  • stodge
    stodge Posts: 14,908
    Afternoon all :)

    Once again, I'm forced back onto the backfoot of my ignorance. The reading I've done suggests that the shale oil produced from fracking needs a lot of refining before it can be used for much more than heating oil. I appreciate the possibilities and potential for gas from shale but usable crude from shale still seems some way off.

    There are huge reserves of shale but the amount of shale oil being produced is miniscule. Whatever SeanT might posit and given the likely growth in car ownership worldwide, the demand for lighter crude from which petrol is more easily and cheaply produced is likely to mean OPEC will be around for a while yet (as indeed will high petrol prices).
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    edited September 2013
    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Alanbrooke

    'Bloody Hell have they no shame ?'

    That's the Labour aristocracy in action.

    Check the Tory numbers before you make a fool of yourself
    I think the fools sit on your side. The tories aren't the ones running around talking equality and fairness bollocks whilst giving their kids a fast track. The nomenklatura in action.

    I note your cries of pain and outrage.
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    No one could make a fool of themselves crying shame when Prescott is mentioned
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Mr. Roger, I'd like to echo that sentiment regarding Mr. Eagles' stewardship of the site. Hopefully it'll end in a more pleasant fashion than Denethor's stewardship of Gondor.
  • OblitusSumMe
    OblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    I don't reckon Ed Joyce is all that happy about it either.

    I think cricket is particularly notable for this sort of thing because of the division between Test and non-Test playing teams. If you're going to play someone for up to five days I suppose it is fair enough to be sure that they will put up a decent struggle by having such a division,
  • SouthamObserver
    SouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    OblitusSumMe said:

    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    I don't reckon Ed Joyce is all that happy about it either.

    I think cricket is particularly notable for this sort of thing because of the division between Test and non-Test playing teams. If you're going to play someone for up to five days I suppose it is fair enough to be sure that they will put up a decent struggle by having such a division,

    Hasn't Ed Joyce also played for England?

  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SouthamObserver said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    I don't reckon Ed Joyce is all that happy about it either.

    I think cricket is particularly notable for this sort of thing because of the division between Test and non-Test playing teams. If you're going to play someone for up to five days I suppose it is fair enough to be sure that they will put up a decent struggle by having such a division,

    Hasn't Ed Joyce also played for England?

    He's been in the team....
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    SouthamObserver said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    I don't reckon Ed Joyce is all that happy about it either.

    I think cricket is particularly notable for this sort of thing because of the division between Test and non-Test playing teams. If you're going to play someone for up to five days I suppose it is fair enough to be sure that they will put up a decent struggle by having such a division,

    Hasn't Ed Joyce also played for England?

    That was isam's point.

    There are three players involved who have played for both sides over the years.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    tim said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Alanbrooke

    'Bloody Hell have they no shame ?'

    That's the Labour aristocracy in action.

    Check the Tory numbers before you make a fool of yourself
    I think the fools sit on your side. The tories aren't the ones running around talking equality and fairness bollocks whilst giving their kids a fast track. The nomenklatura in action.

    I note your cries of pain and outrage.
    Who has been fast tracked?

    (including Will Straw at this juncture will make you look like an idiot so don't)
    What's up tim, am I insulting your relations ?
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    OblitusSumMe said:

    isam said:

    I suppose I am in a minority here in thinking the fact that Englands Boyd Rankin has bowled Ireland's Ed Joyce today & Ireland's Boyd Rankin dismissed England's Ed Joyce in 2006 makes a complete mockery of international sport?

    I don't reckon Ed Joyce is all that happy about it either.

    I think cricket is particularly notable for this sort of thing because of the division between Test and non-Test playing teams. If you're going to play someone for up to five days I suppose it is fair enough to be sure that they will put up a decent struggle by having such a division,

    Hasn't Ed Joyce also played for England?

    He's been in the team....
    Dont be b*tchy!
  • richardDodd
    richardDodd Posts: 5,472
    10% of Syrias are now refugees..
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Civil service in for a bad day ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10282228/Universal-Credit-has-been-plagued-by-problems-says-director.html

  • edmundintokyo
    edmundintokyo Posts: 17,735
    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    Slackbladder said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    SimonStClare said:


    Your proposal would be counterproductive imho. How many refugees do you propose Britain takes in to make it ‘cost affective’ (which was your initial reasoning)

    Presumably cost per-person wouldn't vary much, so the number is independent of the cost-effectiveness. Note that by allowing these people to work and pay taxes, it may be possible to make this number negative.
    SimonStClare said:


    or it's ‘fair share’

    Hard to say, but let's throw some numbers around. Say you have 1,000,000 needing somewhere to go, spread per population among relatively rich countries with a total population of 1,000 million, you get 1,000 per million population, or 64,000 for the UK. To the extent that there are more or less people needing refuge (probably more), that other countries have more or less ability to take more people, and that refugees have more or less ability to function in the UK compared to other possible places, that number would be higher or lower.
    SimonStClare said:

    what measures should GB take to ensure they return?

    I understand the UK has some kind of immigration system.
    SimonStClare said:

    But mainly, why do you think Syrians would wish to be relocated thousands of miles, rather than to a neighbouring country?

    If you can't figure out what kind of problems you might face relocating to an already war-torn country that's had to take hundreds of refugees at short notice, I don't really know what to say to you.
    I'm sure the young unemployed of this country agree with your reasoning, and those on housing lists as well....

    So when it came to risking British lives, and many Syrian ones, dropping bombs in an effort to help these people, even with a strong possibility of back-firing and doing damage, it was an urgent humanitarian necessity. But when the cost turns out to be explaining the lump of labour fallacy to somebody or building a house that might spoil somebody's view, it turns out not to be very important after all.
    So much easier doing that from an expensive Tokyo apartment, and in a well paid job though, don't ya think?

    All those thickos without jobs.... if only they were as smart as you, and had the facts eh..
    Skipping over the snark, policy should be based on the actual likely results based on evidence, not what the voters (or non-voters) assume is true without knowing the evidence. Especially when the politicians making these decisions are hoping to be though brave and strong for making them, and are hoping to persuade the voters to agree to something they have reservations about on the grounds that something has to be done to help vulnerable people.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    edited September 2013
    Alanbrooke

    Quoting from Guido...if there were two posters who I thought had too much class it was you and Avery

    As for young Prescott going into the same profession as his father...I don't find that surprising particularly when it's full of glamour and girls and pouting secretaries and offices with big desks and high ceilings .........
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Civil service in for a bad day ?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10282228/Universal-Credit-has-been-plagued-by-problems-says-director.html

    More IDS getting his retaliation in first.
  • Neil
    Neil Posts: 7,983
    Roger said:

    Alanbrooke

    Quoting from Guido...

    tim does it all the time!

    When it suits him.
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