I see Roger is back on form with his righteous tosh.."the left stand shoulder to shoulder with the underdog"..utter nonsense.
I think roger is correct in this, indeed it is the foundation of the rainbow coalition idea of disparate marginalised groups from BME groups, feminists, LBGT groups, environmentalists, youth etc that is how left wing parties have evolved over the years.
What we are seeing is that many of those underdogs have triumphed over their
Forgive me Dr, but I think this is what's wrong with politics. This obsession with identity politics is merely a sideshow. That's why I try not to get too outraged by Shah and Livingstone. The satisfaction, as many have pointed out, comes from the fact the Left love nothing more than to accuse their opponents of racism, sexism and whatever else.
I always thought that the Labour Party existed to fight for the rights of the worker. I appreciate that the world today is quite different to that of the past, but there is still very much a role for a left of centre party in today's world. But Labour have to work this out for themselves. Right now this country has a budget deficit of £75bn. At some point in the future things are going to get very tough in this country and Labour need to be clear in their mind how to respond when that time comes. As long as they are obsessed with identity politics then I'm afraid they will never be in government again.
I did not particularly want to endorse the identity politics of the left wing rainbow coalition, merely to describe how it arose and why it is breaking up.
Though fairly left wing myself, I was never a fan of identity politics, as individuals have multiple identities. I have many facets and refuse to confine myself to viewing the world in only one way.
But identity politics is not just on the left. Many kippers see themselves as the authentic voice of WWC Britain, failing to see the diversity of interests and politics even within that group. Many are so blinkered as to be unable to see how a patriotic Briton can be pro-Remain for example. This is as divisive as the identity politics of the left.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Rubbish Mann is a useless plonker , his only actions are shouting his big mouth off to try and appear as if he is virtuous and relevant. A worse than usual Labour donkey who should be on minimum wage for his contribution at best.
Lol - he must be a relative of yours!
I cannot think of a worse insult as being compared to an odious donkey of a Labour politician , perhaps only if you had said Cameron or Osborne could it be worse. I am gutted.
I see Roger is back on form with his righteous tosh.."the left stand shoulder to shoulder with the underdog"..utter nonsense.
I think roger is correct in this, indeed it is the foundation of the rainbow coalition idea of disparate marginalised groups from BME groups, feminists, LBGT groups, environmentalists, youth etc that is how left wing parties have evolved over the years.
What we are seeing is that many of those underdogs have triumphed over their
Forgive me Dr, but I think this is what's wrong with politics. This obsession with identity politics is merely a sideshow. That's why I try not to get too outraged by Shah and Livingstone. The satisfaction, as many have pointed out, comes from the fact the Left love nothing more than to accuse their opponents of racism, sexism and whatever else.
I always thought that the Labour Party existed to fight for the rights of the worker. I appreciate that the world today is quite different to that of the past, but there is still very much a role for a left of centre party in today's world. But Labour have to work this out for themselves. Right now this country has a budget deficit of £75bn. At some point in the future things are going to get very tough in this country and Labour need to be clear in their mind how to respond when that time comes. As long as they are obsessed with identity politics then I'm afraid they will never be in government again.
I did not particularly want to endorse the identity politics of the left wing rainbow coalition, merely to describe how it arose and why it is breaking up.
Though fairly left wing myself, I was never a fan of identity politics, as individuals have multiple identities. I have many facets and refuse to confine myself to viewing the world in only one way.
But identity politics is not just on the left. Many kippers see themselves as the authentic voice of WWC Britain, failing to see the diversity of interests and politics even within that group.
I'm interested for you to elaborate on the last paragraph.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
There is or at least was a huge Jewish community in Gateshead when I was a child in the 70s - pretty orthodox too. No trouble at all. There were three Jewish girls in my class.
JONATHAN..Total Bollox..If you have ambitions and aspirations the Labour is not the party for you..It needs its clientele to be impoverished and totally dependent on it..
Of course a right-wing fruitcake (and there are many in this right- wing blog) like you would say this.
Even IDS has said what many have know for years - the Conservative party robs from the poor and vulnerable and gives to the rich and privileged.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
If he'd read what she shared on Facebook and her comments he'd have known without a shadow of a doubt that she was being virulently anti-semitic - remember these posts were only 'apologised ' for after she was found out. There is no such thing as 'racismdar' - what you say is the evidence - end of.
Even more LOL , Alan Rodent a rabid delusional SNP hater.
Why do you care, you don't support the SNP.
Do you just visit from another planet every now and again. I may not be a member of the SNP for sure , for the rest barking and deluded as ever. Even if I did not I am not fond of lying toerags in rightwing London papers peddling manure.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
There is or at least was a huge Jewish community in Gateshead when I was a child in the 70s - pretty orthodox too. No trouble at all. There were three Jewish girls in my class.
There are 34 synagogues in London and 32 in the rest of the country.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
Sky's Jew bashing timeline is rather - it's simple, ugly and frankly WTF as it's everything from Oxford Uni Labour society to activists/councilors/MPs and now Ken.
...At which point, Justin Webb asked Huq whether it was really a case of ‘trial by Twitter’. If an adult shares a racially offensive post, surely their suitability as an MP should be called into question? Apparently not, according to Huq. The Labour politician answered by comparing Shah’s anti-Semitic posts to a ‘funny’ tweet she shared about Boris Johnson and a zip-wire over the weekend:
RH: I retweeted a picture at the weekend of Boris Johnson on a zip-wire, next to Obama looking statesman like and the caption was ‘the one on the left is accusing the one on the right of being weird.
JW: You see your retweeting of something about Boris Johnson as being similar to the retweeting of the picture of a map of the USA with the thought that Israel should be relocated there?...
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
Yep, Leeds and Manchester spring immediately to mind.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
OK so you say "rubbish", which part of what I wrote is "rubbish"?
I still haven't got my thoughts together about all this in an orderly manner. So a few jumbled points:
1) I agree with @SouthamObserver that Labour fell into this problem through "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Horrified at the excesses of the Israeli government, they have made common cause with those in the Middle East who are opposed to Israel, not noticing that their motives can be pretty foul. This in turn has attracted some of those in the Muslim community with the same foul views, forming a small feedback loop.
2) All political parties fall prey to the idea that to the pure all things are pure. That's barely acceptable among the rank and file but leaders need to lead firmly and to get a grip. Jeremy Corbyn has never shown his unfitness for office so clearly as when he uttered his "crisis, what crisis?" musings to the BBC this week.
3) I find it hard to disentangle my views on appropriate punishments from my views of the individuals. I warm hugely to Naz Shah so I want to forgive her. I loathe Ken Livingstone so I want him to be crushed. I think John Mann is a prize ass so I would like to see him get cuffed.
But I and others need to put those feelings to one side. What Naz Shah had said was awful, really awful. Should she be forgiven for true contrition? I want to say yes but I don't know. John Mann, while going berserk, for once had some grounds for going berserk. Should he be admonished for acting in an unseemly manner in the face of such provocation? I really am unsure.
Only in Ken Livingstone's case am I sure of my ground.
4) The Ken Livingstone fiasco occurred because the hard left have a fundamentally different view of Hitler and Nazi Germany from the bulk of the population. The man in the street sees Nazi Germany and Hitler as uniquely and appallingly wicked. The hard left see it as an inevitable outcrop of capitalism. When they scream "Nazi" and "fascist", they are attacking capitalism, not racism. Ken Livingstone spouted what he considered self-evident truths and didn't notice that he was jumping onto the third rail. It isn't the racism that bothers him, it's the capitalism.
Sky's Jew bashing timeline is rather - it's simple, ugly and frankly WTF as it's everything from Oxford Uni Labour society to activists/councilors/MPs and now Ken.
...At which point, Justin Webb asked Huq whether it was really a case of ‘trial by Twitter’. If an adult shares a racially offensive post, surely their suitability as an MP should be called into question? Apparently not, according to Huq. The Labour politician answered by comparing Shah’s anti-Semitic posts to a ‘funny’ tweet she shared about Boris Johnson and a zip-wire over the weekend:
RH: I retweeted a picture at the weekend of Boris Johnson on a zip-wire, next to Obama looking statesman like and the caption was ‘the one on the left is accusing the one on the right of being weird.
JW: You see your retweeting of something about Boris Johnson as being similar to the retweeting of the picture of a map of the USA with the thought that Israel should be relocated there?...
What's slightly bizarre about the various Labour people lining up to defend Shah in the media is that they are often contradicting Shah herself! By all means defend her as somebody who made mistakes earlier in her life and before she was in the public eye, but don't try and defend mistakes she doesn't even try to defend herself!
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
Yep, Leeds and Manchester spring immediately to mind.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue signalling publicity stunt. One of the most grotesque I've seen from a politician.
The damage to the party in my opinion is not that it's believed to be racist because no one other than natural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Bovine manure.
If a Tory had said what Livingstone said about Hitler and Jews and another Tory had reacted confronting him there's no way you'd be saying the one confronting him was a self serving bare faced virtue signaller.
What Livingstone said was unacceptable so stop being so mealy mouthed trying to claim Manning has done anything wrong. Mann is only in the wrong if Livingstone was acceptable.
Rubbish Mann is a useless plonker , his only actions are shouting his big mouth off to try and appear as if he is virtuous and relevant. A worse than usual Labour donkey who should be on minimum wage for his contribution at best.
Lol - he must be a relative of yours!
I cannot think of a worse insult as being compared to an odious donkey of a Labour politician , perhaps only if you had said Cameron or Osborne could it be worse. I am gutted.
are you really 'gutted' - we'd all love to see the photos - a 'gutted turnip' lo says it all
JONATHAN..Total Bollox..If you have ambitions and aspirations the Labour is not the party for you..It needs its clientele to be impoverished and totally dependent on it..
Of course a right-wing fruitcake (and there are many in this right- wing blog) like you would say this.
Even IDS has said what many have know for years - the Conservative party robs from the poor and vulnerable and gives to the rich and privileged.
Right wing fruitcake, Leftwing fruitcake, you're all the same to me.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Goodness, we are rattled this morning, aren't we?
Not at all my dear JohnO. As you well know I am unflappable.
Without a doubt Labour is hurtling up the shitty creek as if it's trying for Olympic gold.
Whilst that might be amusing or befuddling to opponents, it's tragic because Labour is still the only game in town for many.
That last line is spot on, the tragedy is them being taken for granted. A cynic might say Labour is abandoning the shrinking WWC in favour of the growing muslim population.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for gender equality. Really? So how come those Neanderthal "Tory scum" have a forty year (and still growing) head start on appointing a woman at the top of their party?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for the rights of the workers. Really? So how come that every time Labour gets power, it leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited? Because it continually implements the same broken economic model. And the people who suffer as a result? It's always the poorest in society.
The only thing the Left do well? Really well, world-beating well?
Hypocrisy.
Very, very good points. The Left are self-righteous and believe in themselves so much that they have indoctrinated lots of people over the years. Time for change.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
Jonathan This so called Right wing nut job started his working life as a steel worker and then coal miner,became a Union rep..I have seen how Labour can and do stifle aspiration..it is their MO..They need the workers to be impoverished..they reap their their anger and bitterness.I remember asking one quite famous Labour MP..a Minister..Fred Peart. ..for some help..a letter of recommendation..he told me I had ambitions beyond my capabilities..and should be content with my station in life..Try getting out of your rose tinted cocoon..
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
The way SNP are acting, they will be the next Labour party. And criticism and you are being anti-Scottish. The Tories will reign over Scotland one day!
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
OK so you say "rubbish", which part of what I wrote is "rubbish"?
PS try not to get as cross and abusive as usual.
Not cross at all - your post was totally wrong to suggest 'hardly anyone outside London would even know a Jew' - there are communities in most towns across the UK - I grew up in Sunderland as an example and most of the rest of the towns in the NE have Jewish communities.
Interestingly John Mann has ties to Denis MacShane and the American Jewish Committee. He also attacked a fellow Labour MP for querying ardent Zionist Matthew Gould being chosen as our ambassador to Israel.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Goodness, we are rattled this morning, aren't we?
Not at all my dear JohnO. As you well know I am unflappable.
Without a doubt Labour is hurtling up the shitty creek as if it's trying for Olympic gold.
Whilst that might be amusing or befuddling to opponents, it's tragic because Labour is still the only game in town for many.
That last line is spot on, the tragedy is them being taken for granted. A cynic might say Labour is abandoning the shrinking WWC in favour of the growing muslim population.
Absolutely they are. Labour are like the woman suffering from domestic violence...she loves the person she should most hate. She will do anything for the person who beats her to a pulp.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
OK so you say "rubbish", which part of what I wrote is "rubbish"?
PS try not to get as cross and abusive as usual.
Not cross at all - your post was totally wrong to suggest 'hardly anyone outside London would even know a Jew' - there are communities in most towns across the UK - I grew up in Sunderland as an example and most of the rest of the towns in the NE have Jewish communities.
You see now you are talking rubbish
there are communities in most towns across the UK
That is simply untrue, there are 32 synagogues outside London.
I really don't know what your point is here beyond once again pathetically attempting to troll me.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
There is or at least was a huge Jewish community in Gateshead when I was a child in the 70s - pretty orthodox too. No trouble at all. There were three Jewish girls in my class.
I think there are about 1,000 Jews in Gateshead. The census figure of 263,000 is an undercount as some Jews don't like to answer the religion question, and there of course, Jews who don't practise Judaism, such as Ed Milliband. 290,000 practising Jews is a fair estimate, perhaps 350,000-400,000 if you include non-practising Jews.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
What is better than a party led by members of the hard left who have spent the last 30 years standing shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites? The Labour party's membership has made it absolutely clear it has no interest in power. It has abandoned the poor, the dispossessed and the vulnerable, not to mention middle Britain. Right now in England there is no credible alternative to the Tories. So we are stuck with this inept government for the forseeable future.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
You are in a hole.
Please keep digging as you are providing us with immense laughter and joy as we realise how shallow and corrupt your "nasty party" has become with its reliance on bigoted and uncivilised muslims.
This debate has already broken down into sneers and counter sneers. Both left and right believe themselves to be morally superior - plenty of Tory posters on this site post endless sneers about idiot lefties then complain about lefties sneering about Tories. Both sides have good and bad - in politics it's a battle of ideas and both sides attract fruitcakes and lunatics.
Is there racism in the Labour party? Undoubtedly. As there is in the Tory party. Prejudice? Yup. Why - because political parties are made up of human beings and that makes all of us fallible to such things. But outside of this particular bubble this story resonates inside separate echo chambers. People who already hate lefties and are prejudiced against the poor the disabled those below them foreigners non-whites and anyone else else who isn't them thinks this is great - idiot lefties all support Hitler. People who hate Tories for what they have systematically done to their family their community their industry their Town think this is gross hypocrisy - bigots calling others bigoted.
Livingstone is finished - not only for what he initially said but more for his reaction afterwards. But there is no crisis - no hoardes of foaming jew-haters running the party. Some people saying stupid things and there is a rule book to cover that and a process to discipline and expel as required. The crisis exists as an opportunity - for the people who want to get back to the glory days of seeking election on a platform of 90 days detention I'D cards and privatisation of the NHS. And if this doesn't work they will find another issue and try and turn that into a crisis.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Interestingly John Mann has ties to Denis MacShane and the American Jewish Committee. He also attacked a fellow Labour MP for querying ardent Zionist Matthew Gould being chosen as our ambassador to Israel.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Goodness, we are rattled this morning, aren't we?
Not at all my dear JohnO. As you well know I am unflappable.
Without a doubt Labour is hurtling up the shitty creek as if it's trying for Olympic gold.
Whilst that might be amusing or befuddling to opponents, it's tragic because Labour is still the only game in town for many.
That last line is spot on, the tragedy is them being taken for granted. A cynic might say Labour is abandoning the shrinking WWC in favour of the growing muslim population.
Absolutely they are. Labour are like the woman suffering from domestic violence...she loves the person she should most hate. She will do anything for the person who beats her to a pulp.
An apt if unfortunate comparison.
And let's not confuse the WWC with the underclass that watch Jeremy Kyle while the rest of us go to work.
A good article David. I think the reason Mann attracted all those signitures was because it was a bare faced virtue ural enemies could believe that but because it looks a mess. A shipwreck out of control and for that we have pathetic leadership and self serving publicity seekers like Mann and Livingstone to thank.
Labour has tolerated widespread, overt anti-Semitism among its membership for far too long. The hard left within Labour has embraced it. Labour members and officials have no-one to blame for this but themselves. Mann looked genuinely furious to me, as anyone with his long track record of fighting anti-Semitism and calling it out would have been.
He probably was furious. He also displayed his fury in a way designed to publicly inflict as much damage as possible. It may he considered it necessary the wound to the party needed to be open too the world so it could be fixed, maybe it was about publicity and the leadership. But motivations are not as important as whether he had a point, and on Ken he did. Anger at his stunt doesn't take away from that.
The left stands shoulder to shoulder with the underdog and it's very difficult to see Israel with it's oppression of the Palestinians as an underdog. That is the story in its entirity.
America is only relevant in that it adds to the sense of Israel's overwhelming power. This only morphed into 'anti semitism' because it's being peddled by some rather unpleasant right wing haters like Littlejohn and Guido who realized they could signal their own virtue by appearing to suport a minority. It only aquired legs by some clumsy comments and a pathetic labour leadership
Does the left always stand shoulder to shoulder with the underdog, even the non lefty underdog? Should it? I have a of sympathy for the Palestinian people because they are the ones without the power in their dynamic with Israel, but it is so so common to see criticism of the latter, and it's support by the. United States, seamlessly merge into anti semitism, with creeping insinuations about Jewish influence behind the scenes and building from there.
To suggest that is a right wing plot is partisan bilge of the highest order. I'm not suggesting labour has a massive problem - it might, but it might not be as bad as feared - but a right wing conspiracy making a problem where none exists would not attract such a response from within labour as we've seen. There is an issue, the question is how big.
The desire not to overreact is a good one in general. But ignoring it because of moralising myths about a party isn't helpful to anyone.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
What is better than a party led by members of the hard left who have spent the last 30 years standing shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites? The Labour party's membership has made it absolutely clear it has no interest in power. It has abandoned the poor, the dispossessed and the vulnerable, not to mention middle Britain. Right now in England there is no credible alternative to the Tories. So we are stuck with this inept government for the forseeable future.
So, pushing you a little further. Where do you think the most likely place for the alternative to emerge? Top tip, history is a good guide.
I don't think it's very smart of Zak to try to implicate Khan into this. If he's going to lose he would surely be better to try to preserve his integrity. John Humphrys is accusing him of "nod nod wink wink politics"............
"Boris Johnson said 'Piccanninis with water melon smiles.' Should you therefore dissociate yourself from Johnson?." Asked Humphrys.
That's the probem with this sort of thing. It's a game for any number of players
The Tories have been saying all along that Labour is full of bigots. We've been proved right. Boris actually commented on people's smiles. How is that racist? Labour on the other hand, want Jews transported and think Hitler good. What a weird world the Left live in.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Interestingly John Mann has ties to Denis MacShane and the American Jewish Committee. He also attacked a fellow Labour MP for querying ardent Zionist Matthew Gould being chosen as our ambassador to Israel.
Jonathan This so called Right wing nut job started his working life as a steel worker and then coal miner,became a Union rep..I have seen how Labour can and do stifle aspiration..it is their MO..They need the workers to be impoverished..they reap their their anger and bitterness.I remember asking one quite famous Labour MP..a Minister..Fred Peart. ..for some help..a letter of recommendation..he told me I had ambitions beyond my capabilities..and should be content with my station in life..Try getting out of your rose tinted cocoon..
This sort of thing isn't unique to Labour, it's human nature. It may disappoint you, but the Conservative associations of Britain are not a vibrant meritocracy.
FWIW my family benefited hugely from Labour reforms through access to housing, education and health that was previously unaccessible.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
What is better than a party led by members of the hard left who have spent the last 30 years standing shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites? The Labour party's membership has made it absolutely clear it has no interest in power. It has abandoned the poor, the dispossessed and the vulnerable, not to mention middle Britain. Right now in England there is no credible alternative to the Tories. So we are stuck with this inept government for the forseeable future.
So, pushing you a little further. Where do you think the most likely place for the alternative to emerge? Top tip, history is a good guide.
At some stage Labour will get sick of losing or there'll be a realignment. But Labour has to do its own heavy lifting now. It has no right to anyone's vote and will not get mine until the hard left has been defeated. They revolt me to the pit of my guts. What's happened this week is the inevitable consequence of that nice, polite, comradely Mr Corbyn being elected Labour's leader.
To get back on an even keel. I think the point about Livingstone is that he'll have spent a large part of his political life confronting racists from the powellites of the sixties onwards. He will have believed that he could recognize a racist when he saw one and in Naz Shah he didn't see one. In his frantic attempts to show she wasn't he became clumsy and in justifying her words he said some idiotic things that were deliberately misunderstood.
Nice try Roger, but Ken is a nasty piece of work, He has form for dog-whistling, however he may seek to present himself.
The Tory party is 'riddled with homosexuals" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16955851 Interesting choice of words. "riddled"?
The fuss about what he said about gays is ridiculous. In context, he obviously didn't mean "riddled" in a bad way, and looking at Livingstone's record, for all his other failings, he's not homophobic.
Perhaps you might advise of a context in which "riddled" isn't considered "in a bad way" ?
I suspect most people use "riddled" in the context of disease. Ken used the phrase deliberately because that's how he views the Tories - a disease "riddled" with gays who of course in a dog whistle fashion were most clearly associated with AIDS.
Ken doesn't get a pass on homophobia or racism because on other days in other ways he waved a rainbow flag whilst wearing a "Free Nelson Mandela" t-shirt.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
Both Conservatives and Labour suffer from the fact that they represent groups whose interests and values are irreconcilable with each other.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Rubbish, if you are poor and can't afford proper private healthcare the labour party is quite happy to sacrifice at least 1200 of you in Mid Staffs hospital.
If you are a single working man, labour is happy to take your money by force to featherbed feckless single mothers.
If you do not have high inteligence, labour will immport a swarm of invaders who will drive down the price of your labour.
If you are a married women and cant afford proper private education labour will ensure your kids will get nothing but indoctrination at school.
The Labour Party, the increasingly irrelevant party for feckless scum and muslim bigots.
i always think a fair test is 'would someone get angry at a member of their own party doing the same' when analysing if a political storm is fair or not. Use of a word like swarm by Cameron? I don't think the other side would complain if one of their own used it. Defending, even in comedic use, a phrase like picininnie or whatever it was Boris said that always gets brought up? I think many Tories exist who would defend similar from their own but not if labour said it.
Even if we accept Ken was careless and not hateful, he certainly wouldn't accept that as an excuse, even if an apology was offered which in this case there has not from him. And in this cases many in his own ranks are leading the charge objecting, making it even less paritsan to condemn him, even if partisans are involved too of course.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Muslims are British citizens. Muslims areally hardworking people with a strong sense of community and family. As are Jews. Sikhs. Hindus. The Labour Party represents everyone and advocates common endeavour. If other parties want to almost exclusively ignore these Britons that's up to them. We don't. And all party members are subject equally to the same rules on behaviour. Where there are transgressions action is taken.
I do hope the suggestion is not that Muslim = Anti-Semite...
Jonathan This so called Right wing nut job started his working life as a steel worker and then coal miner,became a Union rep..I have seen how Labour can and do stifle aspiration..it is their MO..They need the workers to be impoverished..they reap their their anger and bitterness.I remember asking one quite famous Labour MP..a Minister..Fred Peart. ..for some help..a letter of recommendation..he told me I had ambitions beyond my capabilities..and should be content with my station in life..Try getting out of your rose tinted cocoon..
This sort of thing isn't unique to Labour, it's human nature. It may disappoint you, but the Conservative associations of Britain are not a vibrant meritocracy.
FWIW my family benefited hugely from Labour reforms through access to housing, education and health that was previously unaccessible.
Mine too. Labour's list of achievements is huge. That's what makes its current pitiful state even sadder.
Labour have had a uniquely horrible week, have questions to answer and are further from power than ever.
But if you're not rich, not well connected or simply give a shit about others, Labour is still your best bet.
Except it's not, is it? The Labour party is unelectable. The membership gave up on power when it put the hard left in charge. Even now, the Corbynistas pretend that what is happening now is all the fault of Blairites and the right wing media. Their lack of self knowledge is beyond belief.
So SO, who do you think is better? I guess you could argue the SNP in Scotland. But in England, who do you have in mind?
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them? The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron? UKIP?
What is better than a party led by members of the hard left who have spent the last 30 years standing shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites? The Labour party's membership has made it absolutely clear it has no interest in power. It has abandoned the poor, the dispossessed and the vulnerable, not to mention middle Britain. Right now in England there is no credible alternative to the Tories. So we are stuck with this inept government for the forseeable future.
So, pushing you a little further. Where do you think the most likely place for the alternative to emerge? Top tip, history is a good guide.
At some stage Labour will get sick of losing or there'll be a realignment. But Labour has to do its own heavy lifting now. It has no right to anyone's vote and will not get mine until the hard left has been defeated. They revolt me to the pit of my guts. What's happened this week is the inevitable consequence of that nice, polite, comradely Mr Corbyn being elected Labour's leader.
Morning all,
Forecasting long term is a bit of mugs game, but as it is Saturday, here is my two pence worth: unless Labour get a grip by the next election, then we will see a revival of the LibDems in the 2020s and the rapid decline of Labour.
And for more popcorn - tune into LBC at 10:00 - it's Ken's regular radio show... apparently he's arrived there, but it's listed as Mellor and Crick on their website. http://app.musicradio.com/lbclondon/on-air/player
I do t think many would argue, by the by, with the point that there are definitely people on the right who think only right wingers are good people, and that blinds them to awful things their side might do. That will certainly be proven once again at some point. But it is also undoubtedly the case with portions of the left in particular regarding identity politics, and which is in focus right now.
It seems there are around 250,000 Jews in the UK, I'd say the vast majority will live in London. The point being hardly anybody outside London will even know a Jew. The Labour Party seems to think that North London is the universe, it ain't.
Rubbish - there are many towns with significant Jewish communities all over the UK.
OK so you say "rubbish", which part of what I wrote is "rubbish"?
PS try not to get as cross and abusive as usual.
Not cross at all - your post was totally wrong to suggest 'hardly anyone outside London would even know a Jew' - there are communities in most towns across the UK - I grew up in Sunderland as an example and most of the rest of the towns in the NE have Jewish communities.
You see now you are talking rubbish
there are communities in most towns across the UK
That is simply untrue, there are 32 synagogues outside London.
I really don't know what your point is here beyond once again pathetically attempting to troll me.
You don't need a synagogue to have Jewish people living in different cities and towns. Get a grip just because you know it doesn't mean anybody cares enough to 'get you'
Jonathan This so called Right wing nut job started his working life as a steel worker and then coal miner,became a Union rep..I have seen how Labour can and do stifle aspiration..it is their MO..They need the workers to be impoverished..they reap their their anger and bitterness.I remember asking one quite famous Labour MP..a Minister..Fred Peart. ..for some help..a letter of recommendation..he told me I had ambitions beyond my capabilities..and should be content with my station in life..Try getting out of your rose tinted cocoon..
This sort of thing isn't unique to Labour, it's human nature. It may disappoint you, but the Conservative associations of Britain are not a vibrant meritocracy.
FWIW my family benefited hugely from Labour reforms through access to housing, education and health that was previously unaccessible.
Mine too. Labour's list of achievements is huge. That's what makes its current pitiful state even sadder.
Morning all. Another good article from Mr Herdson. Worrying for Labour that the week before the elections this is still dominating the headlines. Northern WWC lab voters must be thinking WTF?
This debate has already broken down into sneers and counter sneers. Both left and right believe themselves to be morally superior - plenty of Tory posters on this site post endless sneers about idiot lefties then complain about lefties sneering about Tories. Both sides have good and bad - in politics it's a battle of ideas and both sides attract fruitcakes and lunatics.
Is there racism in the Labour party? Undoubtedly. As there is in the Tory party. Prejudice? Yup. Why - because political parties are made up of human beings and that makes all of us fallible to such things. But outside of this particular bubble this story resonates inside separate echo chambers. People who already hate lefties and are prejudiced against the poor the disabled those below them foreigners non-whites and anyone else else who isn't them thinks this is great - idiot lefties all support Hitler. People who hate Tories for what they have systematically done to their family their community their industry their Town think this is gross hypocrisy - bigots calling others bigoted.
Livingstone is finished - not only for what he initially said but more for his reaction afterwards. But there is no crisis - no hoardes of foaming jew-haters running the party. Some people saying stupid things and there is a rule book to cover that and a process to discipline and expel as required. The crisis exists as an opportunity - for the people who want to get back to the glory days of seeking election on a platform of 90 days detention I'D cards and privatisation of the NHS. And if this doesn't work they will find another issue and try and turn that into a crisis.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
The current leadership is the first in Labour's history to have stood shoulder to shoulder with anti-Semites. That is the difference. Racism does exist across the board. But unlike other party leaderships, Labour's is equivocal about tackling it when it is exposed.
What the Left needs to examine is that at their core, they are very happy to hate. And sneer. And snarl.
To hate the US. To hate "zios". To hate "Tory scum". To sneer at White Van Man and his England flags.
The Left would tell you they would die in a ditch for sexual equality. Really? So how come it was the "Tory scum" who were prepared to risk antagonising their own natural supporters by passing legislation that allowed gay marriage? Something Labour wimped out of during the previous 13 years. Who were he scared offending?
What an excellent post.
And this is what makes me angry, there are millions of people who need representation, the Labour party was formed with the very best of intentions. However they have been taken over by arrogant, sneering, patronising virtue signallers.
If you want to disagree with anything MM has posted read Roger's posts, he's standing shoulder to shoulder with the underdog from his villa in Tuscany.
I understand that Roger is or was Jewish. The Jews have a saying when referring to certain Jews, which applies to any country they live in: In this case England: "They want to be more English than the English."
In Germany after WW1 there were many thousands of German Jewish families who thought of themselves as Germans first, second and last. They all went to the Gas, many still thinking that Hitler made a great mistake, and it was the lower ranked Nazis that were at fault.
So it's no wonder that many Jews are leaving Europe, mainly France, and are decamping to Israel as the spectre of revived anti-semitism rears it's ugly, evil head.
Roger is one who seems to despise his roots and has taken his left wing beliefs to extreme.
Perhaps its this rounded knowledge that gives me a greater insight? I also have an ultra orthodox sister with twelve children and despite their peculiarities being every bit as bizarre as the most devout burqua covered muslim I've got much more time for them than those who claim the identity while doing nothing other than having a Jewish mother.
But tht isn't a subject for this site. My interst is the ignorance both of the part played by Israel and what anti semitism actually means. I'm sure there are many Jews on this site who must feel the same but some of the questions of Jewish identity people just get wrong. I just read Blackburn's comment that plenty outside London might never have met a Jew. That's much the most interesting comment I've read today. If it's true it explains a lot. Certainly the lack of subtlety in this latest storm
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Well, it could be argued that Labour have had a problem for decades, seeing as Ken 'Hug-a-Hitler' Livingstone says he has held the opinion that Zionism is suspect because the Nazis supported it, for years.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
Except, a case could be made that the Labour party saw muslims in general as a useful communal voting block, and were prepared, consciously or unconsciously in different cases, to suspend their critical faculties when it came to islamist anti-semitism. So they are in a mess, and they deserve to be in a mess. Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
Muslims are British citizens. Muslims areally hardworking people with a strong sense of community and family. As are Jews. Sikhs. Hindus. The Labour Party represents everyone and advocates common endeavour. If other parties want to almost exclusively ignore these Britons that's up to them. We don't. And all party members are subject equally to the same rules on behaviour. Where there are transgressions action is taken.
I do hope the suggestion is not that Muslim = Anti-Semite...
That's not the suggestion. But, islamist anti-semitism is a thing. Which Labour chose to turn a blind eye to.
Jonathan This so called Right wing nut job started his working life as a steel worker and then coal miner,became a Union rep..I have seen how Labour can and do stifle aspiration..it is their MO..They need the workers to be impoverished..they reap their their anger and bitterness.I remember asking one quite famous Labour MP..a Minister..Fred Peart. ..for some help..a letter of recommendation..he told me I had ambitions beyond my capabilities..and should be content with my station in life..Try getting out of your rose tinted cocoon..
This sort of thing isn't unique to Labour, it's human nature. It may disappoint you, but the Conservative associations of Britain are not a vibrant meritocracy.
FWIW my family benefited hugely from Labour reforms through access to housing, education and health that was previously unaccessible.
Mine too. Labour's list of achievements is huge. That's what makes its current pitiful state even sadder.
So what are we going to do about it?
I am going to watch and wait. I have been through all this before. Life is too short to go through it all again. If you are up for the fight I salute you and wish you the very best of luck. I hope you are successful, I really do. But you have one hell of a mountain to climb.
I do t think many would argue, by the by, with the point that there are definitely people on the right who think only right wingers are good people, and that blinds them to awful things their side might do. That will certainly be proven once again at some point. But it is also undoubtedly the case with portions of the left in particular regarding identity politics, and which is in focus right now.
In all my years following politics - I've always had the impression that Righties mostly think Lefties are naive, hand-wringers who love to tell everyone how much they care, by spending other people's money as evidence. And Lefties think Righties are malign, evil and selfish - "Tory Scum".
Thank you Morris. Yesterday I was 81, today I am 82; I feel no different, now ain't that strange.
Indeed so.
Your UKIP political predictive qualities were hopeless last year and have stayed with you all thorough year 81 and we look forward to similar prognostications as you turn 82 ....
I do t think many would argue, by the by, with the point that there are definitely people on the right who think only right wingers are good people, and that blinds them to awful things their side might do. That will certainly be proven once again at some point. But it is also undoubtedly the case with portions of the left in particular regarding identity politics, and which is in focus right now.
Such people can be found in all parties. It's a central part of party leadership to make such people confront reality or be marginalised. That's where Jeremy Corbyn has failed so abjectly this week.
It's something that suggests that Theresa May would be a good choice for the Conservatives after David Cameron. She has done that service to the Conservative party in the past.
JONATHAN..Total Bollox..If you have ambitions and aspirations the Labour is not the party for you..It needs its clientele to be impoverished and totally dependent on it..
Of course a right-wing fruitcake (and there are many in this right- wing blog) like you would say this.
Even IDS has said what many have know for years - the Conservative party robs from the poor and vulnerable and gives to the rich and privileged.
Well, not in so many words of course, but it was close - probably the most damaging thing he said in his resignation, that all in it together did not seem to be the case.
And I have to say I feel Jonathan makes a reasonable point - I've never voted labour, or Tory for that matter, but even if Tories try casting as wide a net as possible there will be people whom are not focused on whom labour are. There will be arguments about who they are focusing on and why from both sides, but it must be the case, simply due to different priorities, that labour does offer more or some people. Some don't accept that, but if they didn't they would have as much support as they do, even. If one thinks they are getting unreasonable levels of support given the good they do.
Moses is right. Roger often luxuriates in the Cote D'Azur while Tyson bathes 'appily in the sun-drenched Tuscan Appenines
Well done them. And still interested in political minutiae too, not sure I would be In That scenario
Hear, hear. For some reason, right-wingers have a very bad problem with successful, well-off left-wingers; in much the same way as left-wingers have a big problem with working class Tories and UKIPers.
I don't think it's very smart of Zak to try to implicate Khan into this. If he's going to lose he would surely be better to try to preserve his integrity. John Humphrys is accusing him of "nod nod wink wink politics"............
"Boris Johnson said 'Piccanninis with water melon smiles.' Should you therefore dissociate yourself from Johnson?." Asked Humphrys.
That's the probem with this sort of thing. It's a game for any number of players
TBoris actually commented on people's smiles. How is that racist? Labour on the other hand, want Jews transported and think Hitler good. What a weird world the Left live in.
I do t think many would argue, by the by, with the point that there are definitely people on the right who think only right wingers are good people, and that blinds them to awful things their side might do. That will certainly be proven once again at some point. But it is also undoubtedly the case with portions of the left in particular regarding identity politics, and which is in focus right now.
In all my years following politics - I've always had the impression that Righties mostly think Lefties are naive, hand-wringers who love to tell everyone how much they care, by spending other people's money as evidence. And Lefties think Righties are malign, evil and selfish - "Tory Scum".
The 'opponent are scum' approach does seem more common from the left. The 'opponents are idiots' seems the more common approach from the right, though of course there will be crossover at times,
I admit to being in that category. About six years ago, flying back from the US, I sat next to a man in a strange outfit who was reading, from right to left, a book with squiggles. As we neared Manchester, he asked in poor English if I would help him fill in his landing card. He'd managed the name, so we went through the other questions one at a time.
He was staying with relatives in Salford ... no problem. When I asked his occupation, he looked confused. "Occupation?" I asked slowly. "What you do for a living?"
JONATHAN..Total Bollox..If you have ambitions and aspirations the Labour is not the party for you..It needs its clientele to be impoverished and totally dependent on it..
Of course a right-wing fruitcake (and there are many in this right- wing blog) like you would say this.
Even IDS has said what many have know for years - the Conservative party robs from the poor and vulnerable and gives to the rich and privileged.
Right wing fruitcake, Leftwing fruitcake, you're all the same to me.
Yes they are most people who go to work are not glued to the daily politics or reading pb.
There are some of both right and left on here who have said racist comments over the years.
Morning all. Another good article from Mr Herdson. Worrying for Labour that the week before the elections this is still dominating the headlines. Northern WWC lab voters must be thinking WTF?
Guido outed Naz Shah on 25th April IIRC - and issue is still rolling on 5 days later. No doubt more will be unearthed over this weekend about someone or other. It'd be very hard for Joe Public not to have noticed this story by now.
Jonathan You seem to be under the impression that all previous governments,apart from the last one, were Labour. Maggie Thatcher gave the WWC the biggest boost by allowing them to purchase their council homes..many families across the country have benefitted enormously from just that one act..
I do t think many would argue, by the by, with the point that there are definitely people on the right who think only right wingers are good people, and that blinds them to awful things their side might do. That will certainly be proven once again at some point. But it is also undoubtedly the case with portions of the left in particular regarding identity politics, and which is in focus right now.
In all my years following politics - I've always had the impression that Righties mostly think Lefties are naive, hand-wringers who love to tell everyone how much they care, by spending other people's money as evidence. And Lefties think Righties are malign, evil and selfish - "Tory Scum".
The 'opponent are scum' approach does seem more common from the left. The 'opponents are idiots' seems the more common approach from the right, though of course there will be crossover at times,
Having been told on here countless times that I hate my country and its history, that I don't care about the WWC, that Labour supporters are self-interested, feckless members of a client state, and so on, I take with a pinch of salt the notion that the right tends to see the left as merely misguided.
Comments
Though fairly left wing myself, I was never a fan of identity politics, as individuals have multiple identities. I have many facets and refuse to confine myself to viewing the world in only one way.
But identity politics is not just on the left. Many kippers see themselves as the authentic voice of WWC Britain, failing to see the diversity of interests and politics even within that group. Many are so blinkered as to be unable to see how a patriotic Briton can be pro-Remain for example. This is as divisive as the identity politics of the left.
"My plea to the left: treat Jews the same way you’d treat any other minority " by Jonathan Freedland.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/29/left-jews-labour-antisemitism-jewish-identity
As far as I can tell, comments are closed.
Even IDS has said what many have know for years - the Conservative party robs from the poor and vulnerable and gives to the rich and privileged.
Without a doubt Labour is hurtling up the shitty creek as if it's trying for Olympic gold.
Whilst that might be amusing or befuddling to opponents, it's tragic because Labour is still the only game in town for many.
And let's not forget Rupa Huq - who managed to mostly avoid the media storm http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/listen-rupa-huqs-disastrous-turn-on-today/
PS try not to get as cross and abusive as usual.
1) I agree with @SouthamObserver that Labour fell into this problem through "my enemy's enemy is my friend". Horrified at the excesses of the Israeli government, they have made common cause with those in the Middle East who are opposed to Israel, not noticing that their motives can be pretty foul. This in turn has attracted some of those in the Muslim community with the same foul views, forming a small feedback loop.
2) All political parties fall prey to the idea that to the pure all things are pure. That's barely acceptable among the rank and file but leaders need to lead firmly and to get a grip. Jeremy Corbyn has never shown his unfitness for office so clearly as when he uttered his "crisis, what crisis?" musings to the BBC this week.
3) I find it hard to disentangle my views on appropriate punishments from my views of the individuals. I warm hugely to Naz Shah so I want to forgive her. I loathe Ken Livingstone so I want him to be crushed. I think John Mann is a prize ass so I would like to see him get cuffed.
But I and others need to put those feelings to one side. What Naz Shah had said was awful, really awful. Should she be forgiven for true contrition? I want to say yes but I don't know. John Mann, while going berserk, for once had some grounds for going berserk. Should he be admonished for acting in an unseemly manner in the face of such provocation? I really am unsure.
Only in Ken Livingstone's case am I sure of my ground.
4) The Ken Livingstone fiasco occurred because the hard left have a fundamentally different view of Hitler and Nazi Germany from the bulk of the population. The man in the street sees Nazi Germany and Hitler as uniquely and appallingly wicked. The hard left see it as an inevitable outcrop of capitalism. When they scream "Nazi" and "fascist", they are attacking capitalism, not racism. Ken Livingstone spouted what he considered self-evident truths and didn't notice that he was jumping onto the third rail. It isn't the racism that bothers him, it's the capitalism.
The Lib Dems? All 8 of them?
The Tories? If so, which side of the party? Are you with IDS or Cameron?
UKIP?
Great expose on the role of Israel and their fifth column on their attempt to unseat Corbyn, absolutely disgraceful.
there are communities in most towns across the UK
That is simply untrue, there are 32 synagogues outside London.
I really don't know what your point is here beyond once again pathetically attempting to troll me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IiNm_3wjpk
Edited extra bit: probably unnecessary, but to clarify, the video's not aimed at you, but certain elements within Labour [and beyond it].
Please keep digging as you are providing us with immense laughter and joy as we realise how shallow and corrupt your "nasty party" has become with its reliance on bigoted and uncivilised muslims.
Is there racism in the Labour party? Undoubtedly. As there is in the Tory party. Prejudice? Yup. Why - because political parties are made up of human beings and that makes all of us fallible to such things. But outside of this particular bubble this story resonates inside separate echo chambers. People who already hate lefties and are prejudiced against the poor the disabled those below them foreigners non-whites and anyone else else who isn't them thinks this is great - idiot lefties all support Hitler. People who hate Tories for what they have systematically done to their family their community their industry their Town think this is gross hypocrisy - bigots calling others bigoted.
Livingstone is finished - not only for what he initially said but more for his reaction afterwards. But there is no crisis - no hoardes of foaming jew-haters running the party. Some people saying stupid things and there is a rule book to cover that and a process to discipline and expel as required. The crisis exists as an opportunity - for the people who want to get back to the glory days of seeking election on a platform of 90 days detention I'D cards and privatisation of the NHS. And if this doesn't work they will find another issue and try and turn that into a crisis.
Because if "rampant anti-semitism" is a crisis made of Corbynism then it must not have existed in scale pre September 2015. Which is patently absurd. Either the party does have an anti-semitism problem -and has done for a while under Jewish leadership as well as Brown and the Blessed One, or it doesn'the and the problem will be amazingly cured by the election of a "proper" leader chosen by Woodcock et al
And let's not confuse the WWC with the underclass that watch Jeremy Kyle while the rest of us go to work.
To suggest that is a right wing plot is partisan bilge of the highest order. I'm not suggesting labour has a massive problem - it might, but it might not be as bad as feared - but a right wing conspiracy making a problem where none exists would not attract such a response from within labour as we've seen. There is an issue, the question is how big.
The desire not to overreact is a good one in general. But ignoring it because of moralising myths about a party isn't helpful to anyone.
Stuff may come out about the other main parties behaving in the same way, but for now, this is Labour's problem.
FWIW my family benefited hugely from Labour reforms through access to housing, education and health that was previously unaccessible.
I suspect most people use "riddled" in the context of disease. Ken used the phrase deliberately because that's how he views the Tories - a disease "riddled" with gays who of course in a dog whistle fashion were most clearly associated with AIDS.
Ken doesn't get a pass on homophobia or racism because on other days in other ways he waved a rainbow flag whilst wearing a "Free Nelson Mandela" t-shirt.
If you are a single working man, labour is happy to take your money by force to featherbed feckless single mothers.
If you do not have high inteligence, labour will immport a swarm of invaders who will drive down the price of your labour.
If you are a married women and cant afford proper private education labour will ensure your kids will get nothing but indoctrination at school.
The Labour Party, the increasingly irrelevant party for feckless scum and muslim bigots.
Even if we accept Ken was careless and not hateful, he certainly wouldn't accept that as an excuse, even if an apology was offered which in this case there has not from him. And in this cases many in his own ranks are leading the charge objecting, making it even less paritsan to condemn him, even if partisans are involved too of course.
Morning all.
Excellent article Mr Herdson.
@MikeK – Many happy returns of the day old boy, good luck blowing out your 82 candles
I do hope the suggestion is not that Muslim = Anti-Semite...
Forecasting long term is a bit of mugs game, but as it is Saturday, here is my two pence worth: unless Labour get a grip by the next election, then we will see a revival of the LibDems in the 2020s and the rapid decline of Labour.
But tht isn't a subject for this site. My interst is the ignorance both of the part played by Israel and what anti semitism actually means. I'm sure there are many Jews on this site who must feel the same but some of the questions of Jewish identity people just get wrong. I just read Blackburn's comment that plenty outside London might never have met a Jew. That's much the most interesting comment I've read today. If it's true it explains a lot. Certainly the lack of subtlety in this latest storm
Hope it's a relaxing one.
Did you have "Special K" for breakfast today ? ....
But, islamist anti-semitism is a thing.
Which Labour chose to turn a blind eye to.
Peter Watt got it spot on. http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2015/05/10/6080/
Your UKIP political predictive qualities were hopeless last year and have stayed with you all thorough year 81 and we look forward to similar prognostications as you turn 82 ....
Enjoy your day.
It's something that suggests that Theresa May would be a good choice for the Conservatives after David Cameron. She has done that service to the Conservative party in the past.
And I have to say I feel Jonathan makes a reasonable point - I've never voted labour, or Tory for that matter, but even if Tories try casting as wide a net as possible there will be people whom are not focused on whom labour are. There will be arguments about who they are focusing on and why from both sides, but it must be the case, simply due to different priorities, that labour does offer more or some people. Some don't accept that, but if they didn't they would have as much support as they do, even. If one thinks they are getting unreasonable levels of support given the good they do.
Thanks for your good wishes, JackW.
"If it's true it explains a lot."
I admit to being in that category. About six years ago, flying back from the US, I sat next to a man in a strange outfit who was reading, from right to left, a book with squiggles. As we neared Manchester, he asked in poor English if I would help him fill in his landing card. He'd managed the name, so we went through the other questions one at a time.
He was staying with relatives in Salford ... no problem. When I asked his occupation, he looked confused. "Occupation?" I asked slowly. "What you do for a living?"
"Rabbi, of course." he replied.
First time I'd ever seen one in the flesh.
There are some of both right and left on here who have said racist comments over the years.