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Comments
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That is up to the (elected) party, and if it happens that Leaver will have been elected as well.Scott_P said:
But the PB brain trust keep telling us Dave will resign immediately and a Leaver will take over.blackburn63 said:The thing is it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's still not true. No Leavers, most especially the more vociferous ones on here, are going to be in charge of anything.
Are they wrong?
So many people on here seem to be very troubled by the idea of democracy.0 -
Let's be specific: who has said that?Scott_P said:
But the PB brain trust keep telling us Dave will resign immediately and a Leaver will take over.blackburn63 said:The thing is it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's still not true. No Leavers, most especially the more vociferous ones on here, are going to be in charge of anything.
Are they wrong?
You see, people don't simply take over as PM, you do get that don't you?0 -
While the Remain campaign is more efficient than the Leave campaign, the danger is that they are efficiently promoting an unattractive message. "back of the queue" may turn out to have been appalling message.MarqueeMark said:
The Can't Be Arsed Party are on the move?TCPoliticalBetting said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36135768
'With turnout taken into account, Remain captures 51 per cent of all definite voters, down one point since last week, and Leave attracts 46 per cent, an increase of three points.' ORB latest poll0 -
Morning all,
Seems we are all very focused on EU today. But what about doctor's strike? I think TV news last night mentioned a slight dip in public support. From a betting point of view this could all be terminal for Hunt's long term cabinet future.0 -
Is this person going to be leading the government ? If not, it is of no relevance, they are not going to be holding the car keys.AlastairMeeks said:I'm not going to name names, but here's a non-exhaustive checklist:
1) fondness for conspiracy theories
... lots more paranoia ...
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Voters cannot trust the system to deliver them a government that they actually want. A government elected by 37% of voters can easily impose its will and introduce policies that were explicitly rejected by the parties voted for by the majority.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
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None of my children were indoctrinated by their schools to be good little Europeans.blueburn said:Of course, young people have never lived in a country where we had the power to elect a government who had the power to govern us. They've grown-up (I use the term loosely) indoctrinated in schools to be good little 'Europeans'. They have never had 'whole' vote, just one that can influence the bits the EU don't want- yet. Thankfully, there are those, old enough, to remember independence and having a vote that counts. Let's hope there are enough of us.
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We have changed the EU. The single market was a UK initiative. The common market in services has been driven by the UK. CAP has formed a consistently declining part of the EU budget for nearly 20 years now largely because of UK pressure. The budget was frozen at a time when many in the EU were demanding and needing capital investment from structural funds at Cameron's insistence. We have persuaded the EU to reduce tariffs. It is less protectionist as a result of our involvement.CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic. The real question is do we agree with where the EU is going and needs to go if the Euro is to work for more than Germany? I don't and don't want to spend another 20 years with my country arguing negatively on the side lines. I wish them fair passage but not with us on board.0 -
Mr Meeks,
"It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys."
You have every right to vote Remain if you approve of what the EU is doing and what it will do in the future. They are perfectly respectable opinions. Many people are in that camp. They sincerely believe in political union and should vote.
Then there are those who will vote for anything European because they don't like Nigel. It's an opinion, I suppose.0 -
A future with Boris as PM is a likely by-product of a Leave victory. When voters are weighing the pros and cons I suspect this'll weigh heavily.Scott_P said:
But the PB brain trust keep telling us Dave will resign immediately and a Leaver will take over.blackburn63 said:The thing is it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's still not true. No Leavers, most especially the more vociferous ones on here, are going to be in charge of anything.
Are they wrong?0 -
You make a fine argument for the role of editors.david_herdson said:Word of advice. Phrases like 'boorish Boris' might sound good among those wishing to recapture their student protest days but they don't do much for an article when just lobbed in with no context in the first paragraph. It's a strong indicator of a hatchet job.
Having ploughed on to the end, I'm not quite sure what the articles arguing, though I've got a strong sense that I disagree. Concluding with "Maybe that’s right – maybe it isn’t" isn't a great deal of help on a betting site. Indeed, it doesn't really add much to the total sum of knowledge. I do sympathise: I've written articles before where I've come to the same kind of non-conclusion. Usually, it's because I've either not thought it through properly or because I've subconsciously wanted to avoid the natural conclusion.
Also, is there not a natural dissonance between opening the article by saying that Boris should listen to his wise dad and then closing it by saying that parents should listen to their wise children?
On that 'intergeneration conversation' (something which cuts two ways), Remain is taking the wrong example if looking to Ireland. There, there was clearly a social movement with opinion swinging in one direction (as it has here on that same topic, again with the young leading); on the EU, I suspect that the older voters will be much harder to swing because they themselves were pro-EU back in the 1970s and 80s. It's much more likely that having travelled the Eurosceptic path, they'll respond to apppeals from their children and grandchildren with the comment "you'll learn".
I've read Gimson's biography of Boris (review here - http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/RVN4UMPMD0R7H), and am not surprised by what Don describes as a 'scathing account' of Boris' actions re Obama.
In working out who'll be the next Tory leader, we shouldn't be looking to his dad or journalists but to Tory MPs and members. Don needs to get inside their heads if he wants to understand what's going on. Perhaps that's why he came to the conclusion he didn't.
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There was a couple of quite substantial (not to mention brave) articles in today's papers.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems we are all very focused on EU today. But what about doctor's strike? I think TV news last night mentioned a slight dip in public support. From a betting point of view this could all be terminal for Hunt's long term cabinet future.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/the-tragic-naivety-of-immature-junior-doctors-and-their-strike/Some of this is about basic competence. The doctors and their leaders have done a very poor job of explaining why they are striking, offering a range of confused and changing justifications. Many doctors seem unaware of the position taken in negotiations on their behalf by their trade union (short summary: if the Government had agreed to pay more for Saturday working, the BMA would have settled and there’d be no strikes) and believe their strike is not about money.
and especially http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/why-i-no-longer-support-the-doctors-strike/ by a junior doctorThis dispute between doctors and the Health Secretary began as a friendly debate. It’s certainly not friendly any more. I have been told by friends and colleagues not to be surprised if I receive hate mail, or am attacked on social media, for writing this article. But I feel I need to speak out because, over the past few months, as this dispute has been raging, I have undergone a journey: from centre-Right to militant Left and back again.
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Or Michael Gove. I've test run this idea in a few conversations and the usual reaction is as if I'd offered Dracula a garlic clove.Roger said:
A future with Boris as PM is a likely by-product of a Leave victory. When voters are weighing the pros and cons I suspect this'll weigh heavily.Scott_P said:
But the PB brain trust keep telling us Dave will resign immediately and a Leaver will take over.blackburn63 said:The thing is it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's still not true. No Leavers, most especially the more vociferous ones on here, are going to be in charge of anything.
Are they wrong?0 -
To precis, xenophobes?AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not going to name names, but here's a non-exhaustive checklist:Casino_Royale said:
Who? I felt most were genuinely and respectfully canvassing your vote on here prior to your declaration.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
1) fondness for conspiracy theories
2) focus on sovereignty without any clear idea what they actually want to use any notionally regained sovereignty for
3) default hostility towards foreign governments while we are in the EU
4) default assumption that the same foreign governments will unhesitatingly give Britain everything the Leave camp wants the moment a decision was taken to leave the EU
5) dislike of uneducated immigrants
6) when you point out that recent migrants to the UK are on average far more educated than the native population, dislike of overqualified immigrants
7) a keenness on doing deals with non-EU countries in the abstract and a hostility to their political leaders in the concrete
8) regards the idea that Leave might actually formulate some idea of what leaving the EU should look like as an outrage
9) uses the words traitor and quisling for anyone who is uncertain whether we should leave the EU
10) sees those migrants entering Europe illegally as a pestilence rather than as people
11) sees any form of cooperation with other countries in the EU, no matter how pressing the need, as the thin end of the wedge
12) is unable to see any benefits in the EU of any type whatsoever, no matter how minor0 -
Mr. Meeks, oh, those horrid fellows who disagree with one. Shrink from the contemptuous plebeians! Retreat to Waitrose, the unclean dare not pass the threshold!
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We may still get cheaper tampons though, in a few years time - if the rest agree with us.CD13 said:
I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?0 -
Mr L,
"Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic."
That's because I'm making a debating point. I've been to European meetings in Brussels (on the science side). We often had support from other countries. Often the Scandinavians, occasionally the Germans, seldom the French, but I don't claim to be privy to much else. There may be other areas we've made minor successes, predominantly in delaying things.
However, it was immensely bureaucratic, and very inefficient. I'm not a fan and believe, as you do, that we could do better on our own.0 -
Hmm. Quite a few steps from Leave vote to Cameron gone and Gove in place.AlastairMeeks said:
Or Michael Gove. I've test run this idea in a few conversations and the usual reaction is as if I'd offered Dracula a garlic clove.Roger said:
A future with Boris as PM is a likely by-product of a Leave victory. When voters are weighing the pros and cons I suspect this'll weigh heavily.Scott_P said:
But the PB brain trust keep telling us Dave will resign immediately and a Leaver will take over.blackburn63 said:The thing is it doesn't matter how many times you repeat that it's still not true. No Leavers, most especially the more vociferous ones on here, are going to be in charge of anything.
Are they wrong?0 -
Waitrose in the Barbican can be a bit uncouth. But I'm prepared to rough it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, oh, those horrid fellows who disagree with one. Shrink from the contemptuous plebeians! Retreat to Waitrose, the unclean dare not pass the threshold!
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This would be like Blair, oh no, he only got 35%.SouthamObserver said:
Voters cannot trust the system to deliver them a government that they actually want. A government elected by 37% of voters can easily impose its will and introduce policies that were explicitly rejected by the parties voted for by the majority.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
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I would argue that when we joined the EU, it was 'a protectionist racket'. Now, with the exception of agriculture, the EU has some of the lowest external tariffs in the world (certainly on par with the US), and has removed most of its major NTBs.DavidL said:
We have changed the EU. The single market was a UK initiative. The common market in services has been driven by the UK. CAP has formed a consistently declining part of the EU budget for nearly 20 years now largely because of UK pressure. The budget was frozen at a time when many in the EU were demanding and needing capital investment from structural funds at Cameron's insistence. We have persuaded the EU to reduce tariffs. It is less protectionist as a result of our involvement.CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic. The real question is do we agree with where the EU is going and needs to go if the Euro is to work for more than Germany? I don't and don't want to spend another 20 years with my country arguing negatively on the side lines. I wish them fair passage but not with us on board.
That change is largely our doing.0 -
Fair enough. All the arguments have to be simplified and abbreviated to fit on here.CD13 said:Mr L,
"Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic."
That's because I'm making a debating point. I've been to European meetings in Brussels (on the science side). We often had support from other countries. Often the Scandinavians, occasionally the Germans, seldom the French, but I don't claim to be privy to much else. There may be other areas we've made minor successes, predominantly in delaying things.
However, it was immensely bureaucratic, and very inefficient. I'm not a fan and believe, as you do, that we could do better on our own.0 -
You should try the Bayswater branch...AlastairMeeks said:
Waitrose in the Barbican can be a bit uncouth. But I'm prepared to rough it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, oh, those horrid fellows who disagree with one. Shrink from the contemptuous plebeians! Retreat to Waitrose, the unclean dare not pass the threshold!
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It's an interesting question isn't it?Indigo said:
This would be like Blair, oh no, he only got 35%.SouthamObserver said:
Voters cannot trust the system to deliver them a government that they actually want. A government elected by 37% of voters can easily impose its will and introduce policies that were explicitly rejected by the parties voted for by the majority.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
What constitutes 'consent'?
If the majority party got 45%, would that be a mandate? Definitely
35%? Well... if they have the majority of seats.
What if the system got so fragmented, thanks to the rise of UKIP and the Greens, that a government got a majority with 25% of the vote.
I know they would be able to govern, but at what point would you say 'I'm not sure this voting system is working anymore'?0 -
I think the number of British voters that would take that view is extremely small outside of IslingtonDavidL said:
As a tory voter and enthusiastic supporter of a tory government living in Scotland I find this a somewhat difficult argument. It really depends on what your demos is. If you think it is Europe (I don't but it is a legitimate point of view) then we did indeed vote for it.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
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Pennsylvania - Opinion Savvy/FOX
Trump 48 .. Cruz 28 .. Kasich 19
Clinton 52 .. Sanders 41
http://opinionsavvy.com/2016/04/25/poll-trump-clinton-lead-in-pennsylvania/
Arizona - BHC
Clinton 42 .. Trump 35
Clinton 38 .. Cruz 43
Clinton 32 .. Kasich 44
Sanders 54 .. Trump 33
Sanders 48 .. Cruz 34
Sanders 47 .. Kasich 33
http://www.brcpolls.com/16/RMP 2016-II-04.pdf0 -
I think the purdah period will certainly help to neutralise the use of HMG resources - Remain has been making maximum use of its built-in advantage - and money, since Cameron announced the referendum.Sean_F said:
While the Remain campaign is more efficient than the Leave campaign, the danger is that they are efficiently promoting an unattractive message. "back of the queue" may turn out to have been appalling message.MarqueeMark said:
The Can't Be Arsed Party are on the move?TCPoliticalBetting said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36135768
'With turnout taken into account, Remain captures 51 per cent of all definite voters, down one point since last week, and Leave attracts 46 per cent, an increase of three points.' ORB latest poll0 -
British citizens, and voters, as entitled to their view as you are. What is this MetropolitianSneering.comRoger said:
To precis, xenophobes?AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not going to name names, but here's a non-exhaustive checklist:Casino_Royale said:
Who? I felt most were genuinely and respectfully canvassing your vote on here prior to your declaration.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
1) fondness for conspiracy theories
2) focus on sovereignty without any clear idea what they actually want to use any notionally regained sovereignty for
3) default hostility towards foreign governments while we are in the EU
4) default assumption that the same foreign governments will unhesitatingly give Britain everything the Leave camp wants the moment a decision was taken to leave the EU
5) dislike of uneducated immigrants
6) when you point out that recent migrants to the UK are on average far more educated than the native population, dislike of overqualified immigrants
7) a keenness on doing deals with non-EU countries in the abstract and a hostility to their political leaders in the concrete
8) regards the idea that Leave might actually formulate some idea of what leaving the EU should look like as an outrage
9) uses the words traitor and quisling for anyone who is uncertain whether we should leave the EU
10) sees those migrants entering Europe illegally as a pestilence rather than as people
11) sees any form of cooperation with other countries in the EU, no matter how pressing the need, as the thin end of the wedge
12) is unable to see any benefits in the EU of any type whatsoever, no matter how minor0 -
No trains, no doctors, Pm tied up by Europe, rest of party frothing.
Didn't take the Tories long to rediscover their unique style of government.0 -
Cameron will resign immediately. The Tory Remainers will feel abject. The Leavers will be cock-a-hoop. Boris as king Leaver will be heir apparent, No serious Remainer will stand against him-or would stand a chance if they did- and he will win by a mile.blackburn63 said:
You see I can't decide if this is a snaky ad man speaking or that you truly believe it, so I'll ask you this:Roger said:
Unlimited. You can gloat and laugh merrily and then ponder a future with Boris as Prime Minister.Indigo said:
How many days of pointing and laughing are we allowed if Leave are ahead in the next poll ? What about if they win ?Roger said:A very enjoyable article for Borisphobes. If Boris has destroyed the chances of Leave and the Leave campaign has destroyed the ambitions of Boris.
please outline the chain of events that leads to Boris becoming PM.
I'm keen to hear your thought process.
Fair?0 -
Then we agree. But what happens if we leave? Do we risk our near neighbours and major customers retreating into protectionism again? It is certainly a concern and a factor that favours remain. I think that risk is one of the reasons the Germans in particular want us to stay.rcs1000 said:
I would argue that when we joined the EU, it was 'a protectionist racket'. Now, with the exception of agriculture, the EU has some of the lowest external tariffs in the world (certainly on par with the US), and has removed most of its major NTBs.DavidL said:
We have changed the EU. The single market was a UK initiative. The common market in services has been driven by the UK. CAP has formed a consistently declining part of the EU budget for nearly 20 years now largely because of UK pressure. The budget was frozen at a time when many in the EU were demanding and needing capital investment from structural funds at Cameron's insistence. We have persuaded the EU to reduce tariffs. It is less protectionist as a result of our involvement.CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic. The real question is do we agree with where the EU is going and needs to go if the Euro is to work for more than Germany? I don't and don't want to spend another 20 years with my country arguing negatively on the side lines. I wish them fair passage but not with us on board.
That change is largely our doing.0 -
By and large, yes. I don't know ANY Labour members who have said they are for Leave except for the handful of MPs who we all know (Kate Hoey etc.). They essentially see Leaving as a philosophically UKIP project involving getting into bed with Farage and Gove and Boris and don't even give it the time of day - it's out there with banning trade unions and bringing back hanging.Casino_Royale said:
Is the EU as popular amongst ordinary Labour party members as the party establishment?
Labour voters are more differentiated, but polls suggest they are overwhelmingly pro-Remain too. Former Labour voters who put curbing immigration top of their priority list are, generally speaking, not current Labour voters, so it's a mistake to think that the Labour WWC vote is full of Leavers.0 -
So in Wales at least, Leave rises from 37 to 41 percent. When are we expecting the Obama effect to kick in?AlastairMeeks said:
Edit. Reverse those figures. No coffee yet.0 -
Mr. Indigo, silence, poor person! Get back up that chimney!
Mr. 1000, did you see my post below regarding MikeK?0 -
Well if the EU have some of the lowest tariffs in the world there won't be any adverse economic effect from trading with them outside the EU.rcs1000 said:
I would argue that when we joined the EU, it was 'a protectionist racket'. Now, with the exception of agriculture, the EU has some of the lowest external tariffs in the world (certainly on par with the US), and has removed most of its major NTBs.DavidL said:
We have changed the EU. The single market was a UK initiative. The common market in services has been driven by the UK. CAP has formed a consistently declining part of the EU budget for nearly 20 years now largely because of UK pressure. The budget was frozen at a time when many in the EU were demanding and needing capital investment from structural funds at Cameron's insistence. We have persuaded the EU to reduce tariffs. It is less protectionist as a result of our involvement.CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic. The real question is do we agree with where the EU is going and needs to go if the Euro is to work for more than Germany? I don't and don't want to spend another 20 years with my country arguing negatively on the side lines. I wish them fair passage but not with us on board.
That change is largely our doing.
AND we get cheaper food - as everyone, including REMAINers now admit.0 -
There have been two polls - one showed an increase in support, the other showed a decline. But there was majority support in both.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems we are all very focused on EU today. But what about doctor's strike? I think TV news last night mentioned a slight dip in public support. From a betting point of view this could all be terminal for Hunt's long term cabinet future.0 -
I did not. Let me look...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, silence, poor person! Get back up that chimney!
Mr. 1000, did you see my post below regarding MikeK?0 -
Hugo Rifkind has penned a very similar one in the Times and the comments are 80/20 against the doctors/naively being used by the hard-Left [it's about pay, not patients].
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/junior-doctors-are-making-a-critical-mistake-grp3cv9zlIndigo said:
There was a couple of quite substantial (not to mention brave) articles in today's papers.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems we are all very focused on EU today. But what about doctor's strike? I think TV news last night mentioned a slight dip in public support. From a betting point of view this could all be terminal for Hunt's long term cabinet future.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/the-tragic-naivety-of-immature-junior-doctors-and-their-strike/Some of this is about basic competence. The doctors and their leaders have done a very poor job of explaining why they are striking, offering a range of confused and changing justifications. Many doctors seem unaware of the position taken in negotiations on their behalf by their trade union (short summary: if the Government had agreed to pay more for Saturday working, the BMA would have settled and there’d be no strikes) and believe their strike is not about money.
and especially http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/why-i-no-longer-support-the-doctors-strike/ by a junior doctorThis dispute between doctors and the Health Secretary began as a friendly debate. It’s certainly not friendly any more. I have been told by friends and colleagues not to be surprised if I receive hate mail, or am attacked on social media, for writing this article. But I feel I need to speak out because, over the past few months, as this dispute has been raging, I have undergone a journey: from centre-Right to militant Left and back again.
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National - Suffolk/USA Today
Clinton 50 .. Trump 39
Clinton 49 .. Cruz 42
Clinton 32 .. Kasich 46
Sanders 52 .. Trump 37
Sanders 50 .. Cruz 38
Sanders 44 .. Kasich 43
http://www.suffolk.edu/documents/SUPRC/4_25_2016_marginals.pdf0 -
That would suggest that Labour's WWC vote is now largely female. Is it?NickPalmer said:
By and large, yes. I don't know ANY Labour members who have said they are for Leave except for the handful of MPs who we all know (Kate Hoey etc.). They essentially see Leaving as a philosophically UKIP project involving getting into bed with Farage and Gove and Boris and don't even give it the time of day - it's out there with banning trade unions and bringing back hanging.Casino_Royale said:
Is the EU as popular amongst ordinary Labour party members as the party establishment?
Labour voters are more differentiated, but polls suggest they are overwhelmingly pro-Remain too. Former Labour voters who put curbing immigration top of their priority list are, generally speaking, not current Labour voters, so it's a mistake to think that the Labour WWC vote is full of Leavers.
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Hmmm... he's not banned...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, silence, poor person! Get back up that chimney!
Mr. 1000, did you see my post below regarding MikeK?0 -
@RobDotHutton: I'd be interested to see polling on the idea that, if there's extra money for the NHS, the govt should spend it paying doctors more.0
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In fact he's set up as a "Verified User. Bypasses Spam Filter".rcs1000 said:
Hmmm... he's not banned...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, silence, poor person! Get back up that chimney!
Mr. 1000, did you see my post below regarding MikeK?
This may need some investigation.0 -
Mr. 1000, indeed, I think he can log-in, but he can't post anything.0
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LOL not even credible.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
you had your mind made up a long time ago.0 -
Help me Rhondda, help, help me..AlastairMeeks said:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/7248481484479406090 -
Right: I've forced a password reset, and hopefully it'll work for him after that.rcs1000 said:
In fact he's set up as a "Verified User. Bypasses Spam Filter".rcs1000 said:
Hmmm... he's not banned...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Indigo, silence, poor person! Get back up that chimney!
Mr. 1000, did you see my post below regarding MikeK?
This may need some investigation.0 -
Can't speak for Roger but it's easy enough.blackburn63 said:
You see I can't decide if this is a snaky ad man speaking or that you truly believe it, so I'll ask you this:Roger said:
Unlimited. You can gloat and laugh merrily and then ponder a future with Boris as Prime Minister.Indigo said:
How many days of pointing and laughing are we allowed if Leave are ahead in the next poll ? What about if they win ?Roger said:A very enjoyable article for Borisphobes. If Boris has destroyed the chances of Leave and the Leave campaign has destroyed the ambitions of Boris.
please outline the chain of events that leads to Boris becoming PM.
I'm keen to hear your thought process.
1. Leave wins.
2. Everyone agrees that withdrawal can't be negotiated by someone who supported Remain (even I agree).
3. MPs look around for Leavers to offer the members. Serious MPs go for Gove. Populist MPs go for Boris.
4. Offered Boris vs Gove, the membership chooses Boris.
Points 2 and 4 are slam-dunks. Point 3 is iffy, but MPs will come under lots of pressure from Boris fans in their associations not to prevent him being on the ballot. It's about an even chance if Leave wins IMO.
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I agree. But I detest all the whining about the system from armchairs. Its the standard cry of left-wingers who believe in the "progressive majority" and think that in any properly run world there should be a permanent Labour government (and conveniently forget that the last government under PR would have given a CON-UKIP coalition).rcs1000 said:
It's an interesting question isn't it?
What constitutes 'consent'?
If the majority party got 45%, would that be a mandate? Definitely
35%? Well... if they have the majority of seats.
What if the system got so fragmented, thanks to the rise of UKIP and the Greens, that a government got a majority with 25% of the vote.
I know they would be able to govern, but at what point would you say 'I'm not sure this voting system is working anymore'?
Labour had a perfectly good opportunity to support a new system in the AV referendum, but didnt, they can hardly bitch that the current government is in with a low percentage of voters supporting it when they were complicit in keeping that system in place. Presumably because they dream of another 170+ landslide on the back of 35% of the vote.0 -
I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?0
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The Sun will have a huge headline on referendum day urging its readers to 'Vote Leave to save The Queen' or something similar.Casino_Royale said:
Middle-class public-sector and urban Labour voters in cities like Bristol, Manchester, and London, yes.Sean_F said:
No it isn't. But, it looks like 70-75% of those who vote will vote Remain.Casino_Royale said:
Will they?SouthamObserver said:Most Labour voters who vote will vote Remain. A lot will stay at home though. Corbyn will campaign in his Corbyn bubble and will connect with no-one who is not already on his side. Many younger voters will not even be registered.
Is the EU as popular amongst ordinary Labour party members as the party establishment?
I'm not so sure about old WWC Labour voters in the northeast and northwest.0 -
Two cheeks of the same arse agree, good old mutt and jeff.Innocent_Abroad said:
That goes for me also.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"0 -
I'll have time for all these "restoring democracy to the British people" arguments when we no longer have a voting system that ignores c.40% of the population.Sean_F said:
I've always been of the view that employment law should exclusively belong to national governments, rather than being determined at pan-European level.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
I'm sure we can all find individual bits of legislation that we like, which would not have been implemented outside the EU, but I'd still prefer to see legislation made by people who are accountable for it to national electorates.
0 -
Sky reporting Hunt said on radio earlier today that this is "his last big job in government".
Hmm, that's a pity if he meant it like that. I thought he'd a chance at the leadership.0 -
Is it possible Labour can get any worse, their MP's seem to be imbeciles , unable to realise the absolute rubbish they are espousing. They just have no clue whatsoever.SandyRentool said:'Alan Johnson will tell union members that EU membership is "vital" for workers' rights.'
I thought that was what union members voted Labour for. Oh well, might as well vote Tory as long as we stay in the EU.0 -
Mr. 1000, ought I send him a message asking him to have another go?0
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It's still a democratic system, just not the best according to some, including me. Of course, someone might say the same of the eu, but far less credibly on the democratic front.not_on_fire said:
I'll have time for all these "restoring democracy to the British people" arguments when we no longer have a voting system that ignores c.40% of the population.Sean_F said:
I've always been of the view that employment law should exclusively belong to national governments, rather than being determined at pan-European level.Indigo said:
So yes, a contempt for democracy then. The British people can't be trusted (or are too oafish) to elect a government that will pass the right laws, as approved of by the progressive middle classes, so it has to be foisted on them by an external organisation run by people they didn't elect. Its the same mindset as the missionaries in Africa and South America a century ago, contempt for local views and social mores that need to be made to see the light.DavidL said:There was a genuine view that in respect of equality and women's rights in particular that pressure from the EU had resulted in changes to UK law that we might have struggled to make on our own. Personally, I think there is something in that. The evangelical approach of the Nordic countries in particular probably made the EU legislation go further than many countries including ours would have done on their own.
I'm sure we can all find individual bits of legislation that we like, which would not have been implemented outside the EU, but I'd still prefer to see legislation made by people who are accountable for it to national electorates.0 -
The QT audience was against. As was it against a mooted permanent strike.NickPalmer said:
There have been two polls - one showed an increase in support, the other showed a decline. But there was majority support in both.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Seems we are all very focused on EU today. But what about doctor's strike? I think TV news last night mentioned a slight dip in public support. From a betting point of view this could all be terminal for Hunt's long term cabinet future.
It doesn't get more hotbed of wishful-thinking lefty activism than a QT audience.0 -
Well delivered, transparent schemingWanderer said:
I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
Maybe he's just had enough. It can take its toll this kind of thing.Plato_Says said:Sky reporting Hunt said on radio earlier today that this is "his last big job in government".
Hmm, that's a pity if he meant it like that. I thought he'd a chance at the leadership.0 -
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No trains? Must have come to work by magic carpet today then.Jonathan said:No trains, no doctors, Pm tied up by Europe, rest of party frothing.
Didn't take the Tories long to rediscover their unique style of government.0 -
And then the Remainers have the temerity to talk about the "loony leavers".....CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Let's face it, there's little logic attached to this Referendum. On either side. It's about basic gut instincts. And, frankly, the Remainers gut instincts are just as unpleasant as those they use to distance themselves from Leavers...0 -
Regarding point 3, it is a secret ballot. Looking at recent contests what we should expect is obscure Vaticanesque horsetrading behind the scenes, not a Tory Spring.NickPalmer said:
Can't speak for Roger but it's easy enough.blackburn63 said:
You see I can't decide if this is a snaky ad man speaking or that you truly believe it, so I'll ask you this:Roger said:
Unlimited. You can gloat and laugh merrily and then ponder a future with Boris as Prime Minister.Indigo said:
How many days of pointing and laughing are we allowed if Leave are ahead in the next poll ? What about if they win ?Roger said:A very enjoyable article for Borisphobes. If Boris has destroyed the chances of Leave and the Leave campaign has destroyed the ambitions of Boris.
please outline the chain of events that leads to Boris becoming PM.
I'm keen to hear your thought process.
1. Leave wins.
2. Everyone agrees that withdrawal can't be negotiated by someone who supported Remain (even I agree).
3. MPs look around for Leavers to offer the members. Serious MPs go for Gove. Populist MPs go for Boris.
4. Offered Boris vs Gove, the membership chooses Boris.
Points 2 and 4 are slam-dunks. Point 3 is iffy, but MPs will come under lots of pressure from Boris fans in their associations not to prevent him being on the ballot. It's about an even chance if Leave wins IMO.0 -
There will be minimal differences - assuming we sign a sensible FTA with the EU - in our trading relationships from Brexit.weejonnie said:
Well if the EU have some of the lowest tariffs in the world there won't be any adverse economic effect from trading with them outside the EU.rcs1000 said:
I would argue that when we joined the EU, it was 'a protectionist racket'. Now, with the exception of agriculture, the EU has some of the lowest external tariffs in the world (certainly on par with the US), and has removed most of its major NTBs.DavidL said:
We have changed the EU. The single market was a UK initiative. The common market in services has been driven by the UK. CAP has formed a consistently declining part of the EU budget for nearly 20 years now largely because of UK pressure. The budget was frozen at a time when many in the EU were demanding and needing capital investment from structural funds at Cameron's insistence. We have persuaded the EU to reduce tariffs. It is less protectionist as a result of our involvement.CD13 said:I don't understand the 'it's better to stay in so we can alter things' meme.
(1) We've been in 40 odd years and had a say in minor points only. The direction of travel has not been altered, merely delayed by events.
(2) Cameron went to the EU with the threat of British withdrawal hanging over him. Result ... the square root of f*ck all.
(3) No current party we are likely to elect is remotely interested in altering things anyway. The Establishment has decided.
(4) Having voted Remain in a referendum, why would the Eurocrats be interested in our proposed changes?
Your approach, with respect, is somewhat simplistic. The real question is do we agree with where the EU is going and needs to go if the Euro is to work for more than Germany? I don't and don't want to spend another 20 years with my country arguing negatively on the side lines. I wish them fair passage but not with us on board.
That change is largely our doing.
AND we get cheaper food - as everyone, including REMAINers now admit.0 -
I got turned off by the phrase progressive majority in 2010 when there ere all these pundits talking about how the LDs betrayed their voters by going into coalition with the Tories, in essence betraying the progressive majority. Now, many of their voters agreed, but I voted LD and wanted a Tory ld coalition, and I objected to this idea that everyone not a Tory would want to work together to defeat them. Even if as now the parties to generally line up that way, they wouldn't agree on much or get much more done as they are separate for a reason, and sometimes fight with ideological neighbours.Indigo said:
I agree. But I detest all the whining about the system from armchairs. Its the standard cry of left-wingers who believe in the "progressive majority" and think that in any properly run world there should be a permanent Labour government (and conveniently forget that the last government under PR would have given a CON-UKIP coalition).rcs1000 said:
It's an interesting question isn't it?
What constitutes 'consent'?
If the majority party got 45%, would that be a mandate? Definitely
35%? Well... if they have the majority of seats.
What if the system got so fragmented, thanks to the rise of UKIP and the Greens, that a government got a majority with 25% of the vote.
I know they would be able to govern, but at what point would you say 'I'm not sure this voting system is working anymore'?
Labour had a perfectly good opportunity to support a new system in the AV referendum, but didnt, they can hardly bitch that the current government is in with a low percentage of voters supporting it when they were complicit in keeping that system in place. Presumably because they dream of another 170+ landslide on the back of 35% of the vote.
0 -
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
A cuckoo in the nest right from the startAlanbrooke said:
LOL not even credible.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
you had your mind made up a long time ago.0 -
This is the Meeks Fallacy. It looks at an issue as a factor of who else supports it, rather than considering it on its merits. It the same mindset that exacerbated Rotherham when people decided that since the informer was a prominent member of the BNP is could not possibly be true.NickPalmer said:They essentially see Leaving as a philosophically UKIP project involving getting into bed with Farage and Gove and Boris and don't even give it the time of day - it's out there with banning trade unions and bringing back hanging.
If one looks at a policy in terms of how it burnishes or tarnishes one's image by association with its supporters, rather than on its own merits, it should be considered that one might have left the path of wisdom 0 -
MD I have had similar several times , getting Robert to reset account has always worked.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. 1000, ought I send him a message asking him to have another go?
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As it happens, my past views on the EU are freely available for others to review. This was a detailed summary of my views in 2013:Alanbrooke said:
LOL not even credible.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
you had your mind made up a long time ago.
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html
I put this up following a request from Richard Tyndall for a fuller explanation of my views, I recall.0 -
I've always rather rated her - she's got the gravitas and steel to do it. She was also more Leave than Remain until her very tepid switch. Once we know the result, I won't hold it against her. She's definitely someone I'd seriously consider if on the ballot. Not sure she's terribly popular within the PCP though.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
No chance, I would (marginally) take Osborne over her.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
After about 120yrs - Austin Reed is done. Adminstration today according to Sky.0
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Mr. G, cheers.0
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BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to JNN the contents of the latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection :
Should The United Kingdom Remain A Member Of The European Union Or Leave The European Union?
Remain 57% (-0.5) .. Leave 43% (+0.5)
Turnout Projection 63% (NC)
Changes from 22nd April.
......................................................................
WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE4EU - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors For European Union0 -
CurvaceousJackW said:BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to JNN the contents of the latest ARSE4EU Referendum Projection :
Should The United Kingdom Remain A Member Of The European Union Or Leave The European Union?
Remain 57% (-0.5) .. Leave 43% (+0.5)
Turnout Projection 63% (NC)
Changes from 22nd April.
......................................................................
WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE4EU - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors For European Union0 -
..0
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The competition is tough in the £200 suit market. I am a cheapskate on suits so that is the most I would spend, and I would much rather pay £200 for a factory second £500 suit with some minor stitching error you can't see.Plato_Says said:After about 120yrs - Austin Reed is done. Adminstration today according to Sky.
0 -
Labour level pegging with UKIP for 2nd/3rd in Wales among the most likely to vote (60+)0
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You did indeed and feel now as I did then that, even if I didn't agree with some of your assumptions and conclusions it was a balanced contribution to the debate.AlastairMeeks said:
As it happens, my past views on the EU are freely available for others to review. This was a detailed summary of my views in 2013:Alanbrooke said:
LOL not even credible.AlastairMeeks said:
It was the loony Leavers who pushed me into the Remain camp. Nothing good is going to come from giving such people the car keys.Indigo said:
You were the one who was "undecided"...AlastairMeeks said:
Many of the Leavers still seem concussed.Indigo said:
Precisely.blueburn said:The 'oldies' who now favour Brexit, were the young idealists who voted to stay in the common Market in 1975. Now, we know better. After 40 years of lies, we know better. Any generational divide is due to the 'young' not having, yet, the experience of the ongoing reality of the EU and its machinations. They, like we 'yes' voters of '75, will live to regret their vote in favour of the on-going denigration of the influence of their vote.
There is a saying that "A Conservative is a Liberal that has been mugged by reality"
you had your mind made up a long time ago.
http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/the-eu-and-britain.html
I put this up following a request from Richard Tyndall for a fuller explanation of my views, I recall.0 -
Mr. Roger, did you know Dracula was originally going to be a woman?
Apparently the chap's based on an actor Bram Stoker allegedly fancied.0 -
Thank you.Plato_Says said:
I've always rather rated her - she's got the gravitas and steel to do it. She was also more Leave than Remain until her very tepid switch. Once we know the result, I won't hold it against her. She's definitely someone I'd seriously consider if on the ballot. Not sure she's terribly popular within the PCP though.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
Good god. My impression is that you would only barely take Osborne over Robert Mugabe.Indigo said:
No chance, I would (marginally) take Osborne over her.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
UKIP won the Euros with 26% of the vote on a 35% turnout. So about 8% of the electorate voted for them. Hence the collapse to 1 seat in a GE with a 60%+ turnout.Indigo said:
And yet the kipper inclined voters won the last Euro elections, which suggests some issues get them off the sofa to vote.MikeSmithson said:
The voters most concerned about immigration are in the socio-economic groups which are least likely to vote.TCPoliticalBetting said:Mr Brind, what about the Labour voters concerned about immigration? Is the party just going to drive them away?
This of course is why despite all the fine words about "democracy" Leave are desperately hoping for a really low turnout in June.0 -
Osborne is a popinjay. Mr May wants a police state.Wanderer said:
Good god. My impression is that you would only barely take Osborne over Robert Mugabe.Indigo said:
No chance, I would (marginally) take Osborne over her.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
0 -
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There's a man who knows how to 'win' elections.Wanderer said:
Good god. My impression is that you would only barely take Osborne over Robert Mugabe.Indigo said:
No chance, I would (marginally) take Osborne over her.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
I believe he wants to run for another term, which would take him to about 100.0 -
Lucky you. Southern trains are screwed.david_herdson said:
No trains? Must have come to work by magic carpet today then.Jonathan said:No trains, no doctors, Pm tied up by Europe, rest of party frothing.
Didn't take the Tories long to rediscover their unique style of government.0 -
Everyone has the democratic choice to not vote.OllyT said:
UKIP won the Euros with 26% of the vote on a 35% turnout. So about 8% of the electorate voted for them. Hence the collapse to 1 seat in a GE with a 60%+ turnout.Indigo said:
And yet the kipper inclined voters won the last Euro elections, which suggests some issues get them off the sofa to vote.MikeSmithson said:
The voters most concerned about immigration are in the socio-economic groups which are least likely to vote.TCPoliticalBetting said:Mr Brind, what about the Labour voters concerned about immigration? Is the party just going to drive them away?
This of course is why despite all the fine words about "democracy" Leave are desperately hoping for a really low turnout in June.0 -
There are saints and villains on both sides of this debate.Indigo said:
This is the Meeks Fallacy. It looks at an issue as a factor of who else supports it, rather than considering it on its merits. It the same mindset that exacerbated Rotherham when people decided that since the informer was a prominent member of the BNP is could not possibly be true.NickPalmer said:They essentially see Leaving as a philosophically UKIP project involving getting into bed with Farage and Gove and Boris and don't even give it the time of day - it's out there with banning trade unions and bringing back hanging.
If one looks at a policy in terms of how it burnishes or tarnishes one's image by association with its supporters, rather than on its own merits, it should be considered that one might have left the path of wisdom0 -
Jonathan..Southern Trains are always screwed...must be Camerons fault..0
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Indeed. So it's best to discount them and look at the issues. Saying that something is a bad idea because [unsavoury person or organisation] supports it seems a rather superficial approach to life.Sean_F said:
There are saints and villains on both sides of this debate.Indigo said:
This is the Meeks Fallacy. It looks at an issue as a factor of who else supports it, rather than considering it on its merits. It the same mindset that exacerbated Rotherham when people decided that since the informer was a prominent member of the BNP is could not possibly be true.NickPalmer said:They essentially see Leaving as a philosophically UKIP project involving getting into bed with Farage and Gove and Boris and don't even give it the time of day - it's out there with banning trade unions and bringing back hanging.
If one looks at a policy in terms of how it burnishes or tarnishes one's image by association with its supporters, rather than on its own merits, it should be considered that one might have left the path of wisdom
I don't think Remain is a bad idea because Gerry Adams thinks it's a good idea, I think it's a bad idea because we can't kick the buggers out, which is essential in any democratic government.0 -
Yes. I think Gove is the only credible candidate for me right now. Dear Lord what has happened to the Tories? - it seems only weeks since they were rejoicing in the death of their opponents and the lamentation of their women.Indigo said:
Osborne is a popinjay. Mr May wants a police state.Wanderer said:
Good god. My impression is that you would only barely take Osborne over Robert Mugabe.Indigo said:
No chance, I would (marginally) take Osborne over her.Wanderer said:
Did she make any headway in winning your vote if there is a contest post-Referendum?Plato_Says said:Well delivered, transparent scheming
Wanderer said:I would be interested to know what Leave-minded Conservatives made of May's speech yesterday. Mollified to any degree, left cold, or saw it as transparent scheming?
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We obviously need some kind of administration that would make them run on time. Any ideas?Jonathan said:
Lucky you. Southern trains are screwed.david_herdson said:
No trains? Must have come to work by magic carpet today then.Jonathan said:No trains, no doctors, Pm tied up by Europe, rest of party frothing.
Didn't take the Tories long to rediscover their unique style of government.0 -
The vote Remain or the Falklands get it line...large pillar of salt please.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/two-to-tango-argentina-looking-for-new-warplanes-022821/0 -
TOPPING Shoot every tenth driver..0
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