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Some terrible front pages for BoJo over COVID – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 12 in General
imageSome terrible front pages for BoJo over COVID – politicalbetting.com

it was always going to be that the government’s delay in bringing him lock down in March last year would become a difficult political issue for Boris Johnson and his ministers. The UK has the worst death toll in Europe and it is argued that if lock-down had been brought in earlier the impact would have been lessened and many more people would have survived.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,209
    Aslan said:

    The delay to lockdown in March was more excusable than the delay last winter.

    Precisely. The start is on the scientists, the middle is on the politicians.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,852
    Personally I think Theresa May should bear some part of the blame.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    It is hard to see this harming Boris. He will blame scientists for the late start, and Hunt for lack of preparedness. Starmer will miss an open goal. Blackford will call for more resources for Scotland.

    Boris will still not call the inquiry he promised.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,256
    rcs1000 said:

    Personally I think Theresa May should bear some part of the blame.

    Any particular reason or just force of habit?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    Off-topic:

    On intelligence.

    It's worth trying to consider the biological aspects. Intelligence comes from / is contained within our brains, and this meatware's function is essentially what we are trying to replicate in hardware or software. The problem is that individual neurons are not trivial to replicate, yet alone the network of interconnected 86 billion neurons in a brain, with neuron having, on average, a thousand connections with other neurons. (*). Because this is not possible to replicate, computer scientists cheat.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320289#types

    So the question becomes: is the vast number and interconnectivity of neurons necessary for true intelligence, or can much less complicated systems create intelligence? Or do they just create a false simulacrum of it, like Queen Marie Antoinette's Automaton?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nITEU4fsqCU

    (*) An amazing fact: to reach this huge target, a developing fetus must create around 250,000 neurons per minute.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    The whole point of these scientists was to advise on how serious the situation was and what options were available.

    They have consistently put forward the wrong options. No quarantine for international travel at the start. No lockdown until too late. No special measures for care homes (indeed, in Birmingham there is a criminal investigation ongoing as to whether patients with Covid were deliberately and illegally discharged from hospitals to care homes in ways that flouted procedure). Obsession with hand washing.

    But then, having buggered up so comprehensively, they switched to the other extreme. Zero Covid. Lock down forever. Every death is a case of murder.

    Whatever the claims of political interference at the start, one very safe conclusion we can draw is that SAGE was utterly useless and indeed damaging in this situation and should be disbanded.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,209

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    And there’s a degree of Goldilocks about it. How well would we have done had we shut the borders at the start of March?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,290

    Off-topic:

    On intelligence.

    It's worth trying to consider the biological aspects. Intelligence comes from / is contained within our brains, and this meatware's function is essentially what we are trying to replicate in hardware or software. The problem is that individual neurons are not trivial to replicate, yet alone the network of interconnected 86 billion neurons in a brain, with neuron having, on average, a thousand connections with other neurons. (*). Because this is not possible to replicate, computer scientists cheat.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320289#types

    So the question becomes: is the vast number and interconnectivity of neurons necessary for true intelligence, or can much less complicated systems create intelligence? Or do they just create a false simulacrum of it, like Queen Marie Antoinette's Automaton?

    Unanswerable for now.

    But ‘impossible to replicate’, and ‘cheat’ are loaded judgments.
    The reality is that electronics have a massive advantage in terms of processing speed*, and the efforts to simulate brain-like connections are becoming increasingly sophisticated.
    https://www.eetimes.com/rain-neuromorphics-tapes-out-demo-chip-for-analog-ai/

    (*new photonics chips, which are in their infancy, but already in commercial development, are potentially several orders of magnitude faster than electronics.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    Nigelb said:

    Off-topic:

    On intelligence.

    It's worth trying to consider the biological aspects. Intelligence comes from / is contained within our brains, and this meatware's function is essentially what we are trying to replicate in hardware or software. The problem is that individual neurons are not trivial to replicate, yet alone the network of interconnected 86 billion neurons in a brain, with neuron having, on average, a thousand connections with other neurons. (*). Because this is not possible to replicate, computer scientists cheat.

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320289#types

    So the question becomes: is the vast number and interconnectivity of neurons necessary for true intelligence, or can much less complicated systems create intelligence? Or do they just create a false simulacrum of it, like Queen Marie Antoinette's Automaton?

    Unanswerable for now.

    But ‘impossible to replicate’, and ‘cheat’ are loaded judgments.
    The reality is that electronics have a massive advantage in terms of processing speed*, and the efforts to simulate brain-like connections are becoming increasingly sophisticated.
    https://www.eetimes.com/rain-neuromorphics-tapes-out-demo-chip-for-analog-ai/

    (*new photonics chips, which are in their infancy, but already in commercial development, are potentially several orders of magnitude faster than electronics.)
    I was talking about the current state-of-the-art. And it is not possible to replicate at the moment, and to get around this they are trying to do it differently - aka cheat.

    New technology may - or may not - make it easier to replicate the brain's functions. But we are not there yet, in the systems currently in use.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,209
    ydoethur said:

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    The whole point of these scientists was to advise on how serious the situation was and what options were available.

    They have consistently put forward the wrong options. No quarantine for international travel at the start. No lockdown until too late. No special measures for care homes (indeed, in Birmingham there is a criminal investigation ongoing as to whether patients with Covid were deliberately and illegally discharged from hospitals to care homes in ways that flouted procedure). Obsession with hand washing.

    But then, having buggered up so comprehensively, they switched to the other extreme. Zero Covid. Lock down forever. Every death is a case of murder.

    Whatever the claims of political interference at the start, one very safe conclusion we can draw is that SAGE was utterly useless and indeed damaging in this situation and should be disbanded.
    Just on quarantine for international arrivals, don’t forget we repatriated Brits from Wuhan and they were made to quarantine. That whole episode was utterly bizarre. The idea that COVID might enter via another country was completely lost on these morons.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    The whole point of these scientists was to advise on how serious the situation was and what options were available.

    They have consistently put forward the wrong options. No quarantine for international travel at the start. No lockdown until too late. No special measures for care homes (indeed, in Birmingham there is a criminal investigation ongoing as to whether patients with Covid were deliberately and illegally discharged from hospitals to care homes in ways that flouted procedure). Obsession with hand washing.

    But then, having buggered up so comprehensively, they switched to the other extreme. Zero Covid. Lock down forever. Every death is a case of murder.

    Whatever the claims of political interference at the start, one very safe conclusion we can draw is that SAGE was utterly useless and indeed damaging in this situation and should be disbanded.
    Just on quarantine for international arrivals, don’t forget we repatriated Brits from Wuhan and they were made to quarantine. That whole episode was utterly bizarre. The idea that COVID might enter via another country was completely lost on these morons.
    That's a good point. But how realistic was a full worldwide quarantine back in March 2020? Experience has shown the correct way of doing a quarantine is to shove everyone into hotels, as even a few percent of people - perhaps just a few people - not obeying the rules on home quarantine can make the whole system pointless.

    Stopping all international flights in a country as interconnected as the UK would have been a very brave move, and one that was politically fraught. Shoving returnees into hostels and hotels are the same - particularly when we did not have mass testing for the disease.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 745
    Almost every country in the world screwed up the response to Covid; those that were successful were essentially just lucky. And, I am not sure that we are out of the woods yet.

    The essential failing was that pandemic has for many years been identified as an inevitability with potentially dire public health consequences, but had been neglected in recent years. This seems to be a problem related to short termism associated with western democracies in the twitter era; they are in thrall to the ever changing vagaries of public opinion and cannot deal with big existential problems.

    And so it will go on. There is evidence around of this everywhere. Was just reading up on Sunaks proposed £2 billion cuts - courts and justice are identified as being in the firing line. This a week after all the promises on increased prosecutions and speeding up trials. So the government simultaneously promises to solve something whilst cutting it and society has lost the ability to question it.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869

    It is hard to see this harming Boris. He will blame scientists for the late start, and Hunt for lack of preparedness. Starmer will miss an open goal. Blackford will call for more resources for Scotland.

    Boris will still not call the inquiry he promised.

    Would you like to have a friendly wager on the latter point? He, or his immediate successor in case he loses power, will certainly call an inquiry on it. I cannot see it not happening.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 193
    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    I recall very clearly the scientists arguing that it would be wrong to lockdown too early because they were worried about "lockdown fatigue" resulting in lockdown breaking down as the pandemic peaked - resulting in more deaths. As it turned out the British public were more willing to accept limitations on their liberty than had been modelled. Ultimate responsibility rests with the politicians and I think they could have been more rigorous in probing why other countries were doing things differently, but going against scientific advice would have been "brave".

    The R4 commentary on the report just now saying that anyone looking for "the guilty men" will be disappointed - it looks at systemic failures rather than bad actors.

    I look forward to similarly robust reports from Edinburgh, Cardiff & Belfast....
    It was also hard to look at what other countries were doing, because their policies (like ours) were in flux, and we had no idea if their policies would turn out to be better or worse. We also lacked a great deal of knowledge about the disease.

    But your last point is an important one: what were opposition politicians calling for at the time? From memory, they were as much blind-sided by this as the government back in March/April/May. To be fair to Starmer, he only became Labour leader in early April, and was involved with the leadership election up to then. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see what he was saying about the situation in March.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    The most recent data show the labour market continuing to recover.

    The number of payroll employees showed another monthly increase, up 207,000 to a record 29.2 million in September 2021, returning to pre-coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic (February 2020) levels.

    Following a period of employment growth and low unemployment, since the start of the pandemic the employment rate generally decreased, and the unemployment rate increased. However, since the end of 2020, both have shown signs of recovery. Our latest Labour Force estimates for June to August 2021 show the employment rate increased by 0.5 percentage points on the quarter, to 75.3%. and the unemployment rate decreased by 0.4 percentage points, to 4.5%. The economic inactivity rate is down 0.2 percentage points on the previous quarter, to 21.1%.

    The number of job vacancies in July to September 2021 was a record high of 1,102,000, an increase of 318,000 from its pre-pandemic (January to March 2020) level; this was the second consecutive month that the three-month average has risen over one million.


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2021
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,480
    Inclined to agree with Mr Jessop. It was suggested that lockdown would be met by general disregard by, IIRC, behavioural scientists, and, I think some politicians. However I also recall our Glorious Leader going round shaking hands with all and sundry while declaring that he would continue to do that.
    Until he didn't.

    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles, and that previous plans for the sort of emergency we faced were junked...... I think by the May government and that relationships between the various parts of Care of the Elderly were very bad. I suspect that one outcome of this will be an improvement in relationships in this sector. It's a long while now since I was involved, but my recollection is that neither hospitals nor the care home sector particularly trusted each other, and that too often co-operation was minimal or non-existent.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,676
    edited October 12
    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.

    How did it come to this? What awful luck (a lot of of this bad luck is self inflicted of course) that we have a dunce leading us at a time of national emergency.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 5,894
    Generals will laways be blamed for fighting the last war as the next one will always be different.

    The Inquiry should be about strategy rather than tactics. Jacinda's tactics were right but was her strategy sound? Despite NZ having major advantages because of its position, it is still at risk.

    Covid 19 would need to be beaten by herd immunity and/or vaccination. You can't totally rely on it becoming less virulent with time. Full lockdown at the first sign would stretch out the deaths, but it was never a free lunch.

    The main lesson to be learned was to harness the science as soon as possible. Vaccination, vaccination, vaccination. The rest is frippery.



  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248
    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    I presume your criticism extends to Sturgeon & Drakeford who implemented virtually identical policies?

    Or just to Johnson?
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,676
    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,480


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

    Fair comment. Credit/blame where it's due.

    There did seem to be some 'sweetheart' deals though, which 'didn't turn out well'.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    And the deluded left-wing halfwits who live on this blog fail to notice why Johnson keeps on beating their candidates. The deluded left-wing halfwits who only a couple of years ago were supporting an anti-Semitic fool.

    I am not a fan of Johnson. I didn't vote for his party, and wouldn't vote for it with him in charge. But he is undoubtedly popular in a way no UK politician has been since the height of Blair.

    But that popularity could subside as rapidly as Blair's did.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,676


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

    Give it a beak you halfwit! Take some f*cking responsibility for the efforts of this pathetic right-wing incompetent Government. Yous spend just about every living moment praising this rotten PM and vile Conservative Government on this blog!
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,797

    I'm not happy that the phrasing is entirely about whether our liberties were swept away soon enough. Especially since the NHS didn't collapse which was the excuse to take away our civil liberties.

    So civil liberties should not have been curtailed until the NHS was on its knees?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,713
    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    That really isn't true. There is only one right winger on this blog who is as stupid as you suggest, and he is anti Johnson.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,480
    murali_s said:


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

    Give it a beak you halfwit! Take some f*cking responsibility for the efforts of this pathetic right-wing incompetent Government. Yous spend just about every living moment praising this rotten PM and vile Conservative Government on this blog!
    A left wing Govt. could be as pathetic and incompetent.

    Admittedly it's difficult to see how, but Callaghan got a lot of stick in the Winter of Discontent.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    Eye off the ball?

    England is horribly behind in its current phase of vaccine roll-out: boosters and teens.
    Proof-points:
    - Teens: England is falling way behind Scotland, which started at the same time.
    - Boosters: England is falling way its own pace of 2nd doses earlier in the year.
    (1/4)


    https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1447583841619689477?s=20
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,248
    IshmaelZ said:

    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    That really isn't true. There is only one right winger on this blog who is as stupid as you suggest, and he is anti Johnson.
    OK. Now we have to work out who that was referring to.

    I have to say ‘deluded right-wing anti-Johnson half wit’ doesn’t actually narrow it down. I can think of several posters it would apply to…
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,713
    On topic: thiscame entirely out of left field, which may diminish its impact - no weeks of build up leaks etc.

    I'm not sure how damaging it is either. Doesn't look as useless as Blair looked over Foot & Mouth. As long as we are in a comfortably obscure spot in the league tables people are surely going to say, yeah, we made mistakes, but so did everybody.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,797
    I have no problem with how early or late lockdown started. I'm more interested to hear about corrupt PPE contracts and how the hell Test and Trace cost us what it did.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    murali_s said:


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

    Give it a beak you halfwit! Take some f*cking responsibility for the efforts of this pathetic right-wing incompetent Government. Yous spend just about every living moment praising this rotten PM and vile Conservative Government on this blog!
    Read my latest post.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,196
    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    If you are going to criticise someone for a lack of an eye for detail, probably best not to make an error of detail yourself…
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    I'm not happy that the phrasing is entirely about whether our liberties were swept away soon enough. Especially since the NHS didn't collapse which was the excuse to take away our civil liberties.

    So civil liberties should not have been curtailed until the NHS was on its knees?
    Civil liberties should not have been curtailed unless the NHS would be on its knees if they weren't.

    That was the reason lockdown was brought in, because to not have it would mean the NHS would collapse. The NHS didn't collapse.

    So now people want to move the Overton Window even further and say that it should have been brought in even sooner without such a risk. I say no to that.

    We should be investigating why we spent so long in lockdown while Sweden and others largely coped without it, not why we didn't have our liberties taken away for longer.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    On the flip side, the report concludes that the vaccination programme has been one of the most effective initiatives in history. From development to rollout it concludes that the UK’s vaccine response will save millions of lives not just here but across the world.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1447811109860294658?s=20
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    My recollection - feel free to demonstrate I am wrong - was that Cheltenham had no discernible impact on the UK
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,480

    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    On the flip side, the report concludes that the vaccination programme has been one of the most effective initiatives in history. From development to rollout it concludes that the UK’s vaccine response will save millions of lives not just here but across the world.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1447811109860294658?s=20
    Undoubtedly our vaccine development programme has been a great success, matched until recently by the roll-out. Sadly this now seems to be rather running into the sand.

    I'm not, so far, impressed with Test and Trace, though, and experience of the system isn't helping.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    SAGE - March 5th:

    SAGE agreed there is no evidence to suggest that banning very large gatherings would reduce transmission. Preventing all social interaction in public spaces, including restaurants and bars, would have an effect, but would be very difficult to implement.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888781/S0381_Thirteenth_meeting_on_Wuhan_Coronavirus__Covid-19__.pdf

    Cheltenham started 4 days later
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,981
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    The whole point of these scientists was to advise on how serious the situation was and what options were available.

    They have consistently put forward the wrong options. No quarantine for international travel at the start. No lockdown until too late. No special measures for care homes (indeed, in Birmingham there is a criminal investigation ongoing as to whether patients with Covid were deliberately and illegally discharged from hospitals to care homes in ways that flouted procedure). Obsession with hand washing.

    But then, having buggered up so comprehensively, they switched to the other extreme. Zero Covid. Lock down forever. Every death is a case of murder.

    Whatever the claims of political interference at the start, one very safe conclusion we can draw is that SAGE was utterly useless and indeed damaging in this situation and should be disbanded.
    Just on quarantine for international arrivals, don’t forget we repatriated Brits from Wuhan and they were made to quarantine. That whole episode was utterly bizarre. The idea that COVID might enter via another country was completely lost on these morons.
    WHO advice was not to restrict travel iirc. I remember the crap Trump got for it. And it didn't stop cases getting to America either.

    By the time we were thinking about it, it was too late.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869

    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    On the flip side, the report concludes that the vaccination programme has been one of the most effective initiatives in history. From development to rollout it concludes that the UK’s vaccine response will save millions of lives not just here but across the world.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1447811109860294658?s=20
    Also, our genomics initiatives have been genuinely brilliant.

    World-beating, even. And run from here in Cambridge. ;)

    The Wellcome Sanger Institute needs a heck of a lot of kudos for its wok.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    SAGE - March 5th:

    SAGE agreed there is no evidence to suggest that banning very large gatherings would reduce transmission. Preventing all social interaction in public spaces, including restaurants and bars, would have an effect, but would be very difficult to implement.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/888781/S0381_Thirteenth_meeting_on_Wuhan_Coronavirus__Covid-19__.pdf

    Cheltenham started 4 days later

    Look at you bringing evidence to a troll fight.
  • eekeek Posts: 14,839

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of school reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    How many times have people on here pointed out that Boris only makes a decision when they is only 1 sane choice left on the table.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592

    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    Spot on. What we have learnt is that Johnson is a chancer, a buffoon, a liar, wings it, out of his depth etc.
    Have you? I’m genuinely surprised. How come you hadn’t noticed that before? All the evidence has been available for years.
    I have brother - known for years. The problem is the deluded right-wing halfwits who live on this blog who continually praise the disingenuous fat fornicator.
    On the flip side, the report concludes that the vaccination programme has been one of the most effective initiatives in history. From development to rollout it concludes that the UK’s vaccine response will save millions of lives not just here but across the world.

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1447811109860294658?s=20
    Undoubtedly our vaccine development programme has been a great success, matched until recently by the roll-out. Sadly this now seems to be rather running into the sand.
    In England, yes - Scotland is doing markedly better among children.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    Another strong month for U.K. labour market with >200k new jobs, a record 1.1m vacancies, further drops in inactivity (21.1%) & unemployment (4.5%). The third leg of the stagflation stool is rising unemployment. Very little in the release to suggest U.K. is anywhere near that

    https://twitter.com/shjfrench/status/1447807762239524865?s=20
  • eek said:

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of school reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    How many times have people on here pointed out that Boris only makes a decision when they is only 1 sane choice left on the table.
    Yup.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    murali_s said:


    However, I do think that the supply of PPE was a shambles

    Not helped by Macron blocking the huge NHS order - placed in February - from leaving France.

    Give it a beak you halfwit! Take some f*cking responsibility for the efforts of this pathetic right-wing incompetent Government. Yous spend just about every living moment praising this rotten PM and vile Conservative Government on this blog!
    Do you think this approach will persuade or alienate your counterpart?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    My question about such a report: hoe much hindsightism is involved? It seems reasonable to say that locking down a week earlier in March would have saved thousands of lives. With hindsight.

    But what advice were the government getting at the time?

    Additionally, we had never done a lockdown before in this manner. The entire apparatus of state had to be turned around to face this issue - and the leviathan of state is never good at responding quickly at scale to novel situations.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with the politicians who had to deal with this back in March 2020 - especially as the plans we had prepared targeted the wrong sort of disease. What's more problematic for me are the events of November / December 2020.

    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    The whole point of these scientists was to advise on how serious the situation was and what options were available.

    They have consistently put forward the wrong options. No quarantine for international travel at the start. No lockdown until too late. No special measures for care homes (indeed, in Birmingham there is a criminal investigation ongoing as to whether patients with Covid were deliberately and illegally discharged from hospitals to care homes in ways that flouted procedure). Obsession with hand washing.

    But then, having buggered up so comprehensively, they switched to the other extreme. Zero Covid. Lock down forever. Every death is a case of murder.

    Whatever the claims of political interference at the start, one very safe conclusion we can draw is that SAGE was utterly useless and indeed damaging in this situation and should be disbanded.
    Just on quarantine for international arrivals, don’t forget we repatriated Brits from Wuhan and they were made to quarantine. That whole episode was utterly bizarre. The idea that COVID might enter via another country was completely lost on these morons.
    WHO advice was not to restrict travel iirc. I remember the crap Trump got for it. And it didn't stop cases getting to America either.

    By the time we were thinking about it, it was too late.
    Too late to stop it entering the nation yes.

    But once lockdown happened, once our fundamental civil liberties were encroached, then the border should have been locked down and quarantine enforced. It should have been the final element to be lifted too.

    I can forgive many mistakes in a fast moving environment but what I can't forgive is people being able to go on holidays and bring the virus back with them at the same time schools were shut by law. That was utterly unforgivable.

    If the situation is so critical that our children's education has to be disrupted then shut the damned border already!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,470
    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,606
    edited October 12

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of schools reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    Good post. The repeated pointing the finger elsewhere when problems occurred , which we see again today, should be on the list. The government will take praise all too quickly if something goes ok, but can’t stomach an ounce of accountability if things fail. All a bit playground really.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,992
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, largely agree. The Christmas fiasco may also have repercussions this time, with more people going for a big family Christmas, if they can, ironically increasing transmission rates.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887

    I have no problem with how early or late lockdown started. I'm more interested to hear about corrupt PPE contracts and how the hell Test and Trace cost us what it did.

    One of the characteristics of the first wave was that the ground level clinician led initiatives generally happened quickly, efficiently and effectively. Things like shutting down elective operations, redeployment of staff, constructing seperate covid Emergency entrances, wards, ICU. Our estates department would put up paneled walls over night to divide.

    The further that you go up away from the coal-face, the bigger the mistakes and the bigger the misallocation of resources.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,694
    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, largely agree. The Christmas fiasco may also have repercussions this time, with more people going for a big family Christmas, if they can, ironically increasing transmission rates.

    The pandemic phase of this is over. Why should we care about "case rates" now when everybody who wants to be is vaccinated.

    If anyone unvaccinated gets it that's their choice.
    If anyone vaccinated gets it we've done what we reasonably can for them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    Dura_Ace said:

    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?

    You are?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,970
    With so many vacancies what's the reason that virtually anyone on UC couldn't get a much better job?

    Childcare? Skills? Unemployable?

    We need to be much more innovative in supporting people into work here.

    It's far far better for you and everyone else if you work.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,915

    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......

    Not you whinging again.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 2,671
    edited October 12
    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff. I can't remember if his response was "pay them more" or not.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683
    edited October 12
    The scientists are undoubtedly key as to why the delay came about, but the government bears responsibility for it. The PM was standing right there at the lecturn at the very first press conference, when Whitty in the same room was explaining about herd immunity, even saying at one point that policy was they wanted more people to catch the virus.

    It plays into the bigger picture about the PM being a ditherer who won’t make a decision until he absolutely has to, and always bears the imprint of whoever sat on him last.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,965
    Jonathan said:

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of schools reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    Good post. The repeated pointing the finger elsewhere when problems occurred , which we see again today, should be on the list. The government will take praise all too quickly if something goes ok, but can’t stomach an ounce of accountability if things fail. All a bit playground really.
    True.

    But there is a UK inquiry, which will look at England-only matters as well. There is a Scotland only inquiry. There is a N. Ireland only inquiry.

    Which country is missing ? And who runs it ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,606
    The bottom line is that far too many people died from Covid in the U.K. . The question is whether the government could have reasonably have made decisions that might have saved them. The answer seems pretty conclusively yes. Lessons need to be learned.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    Dura_Ace said:

    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?

    He is staying at the private Villa of Zack Goldsmith, who he made a peer last year. One favour deserves another...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,606

    Jonathan said:

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of schools reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    Good post. The repeated pointing the finger elsewhere when problems occurred , which we see again today, should be on the list. The government will take praise all too quickly if something goes ok, but can’t stomach an ounce of accountability if things fail. All a bit playground really.
    True.

    But there is a UK inquiry, which will look at England-only matters as well. There is a Scotland only inquiry. There is a N. Ireland only inquiry.

    Which country is missing ? And who runs it ?
    Qed
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff.
    Then the care homes should demand more cash and offer a pay rise and not pay minimum wage. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

    Care staff have a lot of similar duties to nurses etc but are expected to wipe people's bums, at night, providing close personal care for the national minimum wage. A waitress getting the same minimum wage but earning tips gets higher paid than care staff.

    If there's a lack of staff in the care sector it's not because they're only able to recruit from the well over 90% of the population fully vaccinated.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,470

    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......

    Not you whinging again.
    I suppose its a moot point. Not you whinging again about my whinging.
    For those who hate Boris as so.many do on this site this thread is a form of therapy.
  • IanB2 said:

    The scientists are undoubtedly key as to why the delay came about, but the government bears responsibility for it. The PM was standing right there at the lecturn at the very first press conference, when Whitty in the same room was explaining about herd immunity, even saying at one point that policy was they wanted more people to catch the virus.

    It plays into the bigger picture about the PM being a ditherer who won’t make a decision until he absolutely has to, and always bears the imprint of whoever sat on him last.

    I clearly remember that half the country was practically begging for lockdown during the last week before Johnson finally took action. Indeed, many people had voluntarily taken steps to try to cut down their chances of exposure by then.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,134

    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......

    Good to know you can never criticise anyone for their actions ever then.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 5,965
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    I've said before I can just about forgive the government their initial mistakes because a lot of other countries made them as well but what I cannot forgive is

    1) The clusterfuck that was test, trace, and isolate.

    2) Failure to spot the signs in September and October which led to a delayed lockdown.

    3) The bullshit on having a normal Christmas.

    4) The threats of legal action against schools who wanted to close early because of high case numbers.

    5) Which led to the farce of schools reopening for one day after Christmas.

    In short Boris Johnson was repeatedly behind the curve, not just at the start but all the way through.

    Good post. The repeated pointing the finger elsewhere when problems occurred , which we see again today, should be on the list. The government will take praise all too quickly if something goes ok, but can’t stomach an ounce of accountability if things fail. All a bit playground really.
    True.

    But there is a UK inquiry, which will look at England-only matters as well. There is a Scotland only inquiry. There is a N. Ireland only inquiry.

    Which country is missing ? And who runs it ?
    Qed
    Hardly.

    I am asking why there is no inquiry into actions taken by the Welsh Government in Wales, when the other devolved administrations are holding one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887

    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......

    Enjoy your holiday by ignoring PB then!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,683

    IanB2 said:

    The scientists are undoubtedly key as to why the delay came about, but the government bears responsibility for it. The PM was standing right there at the lecturn at the very first press conference, when Whitty in the same room was explaining about herd immunity, even saying at one point that policy was they wanted more people to catch the virus.

    It plays into the bigger picture about the PM being a ditherer who won’t make a decision until he absolutely has to, and always bears the imprint of whoever sat on him last.

    I clearly remember that half the country was practically begging for lockdown during the last week before Johnson finally took action. Indeed, many people had voluntarily taken steps to try to cut down their chances of exposure by then.
    Even Sean was telling us it needed to happen; that’s how obvious it was.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    With so many vacancies what's the reason that virtually anyone on UC couldn't get a much better job?

    Childcare? Skills? Unemployable?

    We need to be much more innovative in supporting people into work here.

    It's far far better for you and everyone else if you work.

    It's normal in career progression to get cumulative steps of slightly better pay rather than much better in a single step.

    For those working on UC anyone who gets a better pay rise they know they'll have to work harder but the reality is that the state will effectively tax them 75% of every extra penny they earn.

    If you were facing a real tax rate of 75% would that incentivise you to look for a slightly better paid job?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?

    He is staying at the private Villa of Zack Goldsmith, who he made a peer last year. One favour deserves another...
    TBF I believe Goldsmith is a genuine friend (doesn’t his half brother employ Carrie?) so it’s not quite as simple as you maliciously pretend
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887

    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff. I can't remember if his response was "pay them more" or not.
    I would exempt anyone who had proven covid on a PCR swab from the No Jab No Job policy. We know that survivors immunity is as high as vaccinated, or better. There really is no need to vaccinate them too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,887
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?

    He is staying at the private Villa of Zack Goldsmith, who he made a peer last year. One favour deserves another...
    TBF I believe Goldsmith is a genuine friend (doesn’t his half brother employ Carrie?) so it’s not quite as simple as you maliciously pretend
    I don't doubt that they are genuinely closely linked in all sorts of ways.
  • Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff.
    Then the care homes should demand more cash and offer a pay rise and not pay minimum wage. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

    Care staff have a lot of similar duties to nurses etc but are expected to wipe people's bums, at night, providing close personal care for the national minimum wage. A waitress getting the same minimum wage but earning tips gets higher paid than care staff.

    If there's a lack of staff in the care sector it's not because they're only able to recruit from the well over 90% of the population fully vaccinated.
    Perhaps they should offer pay rises, but that doesn't detract from the point that, as Charles has indicated, a "no jab, no job" policy could well cause an increase in care home deaths. Are you so beholden to your ideology that deaths are no longer important?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,592
    Wonder if there's evidence of Johnson ignoring scientific advice, like Sturgeon:

    NICOLA Sturgeon has been urged to “come clean” after it was reported she overruled advisors who suggested telling the public about a coronavirus outbreak at a major conference.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19637594.sturgeon-told-come-clean-overruling-aides-health-minister-nike-conference-outbreak/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,282

    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff.
    Then the care homes should demand more cash and offer a pay rise and not pay minimum wage. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

    Care staff have a lot of similar duties to nurses etc but are expected to wipe people's bums, at night, providing close personal care for the national minimum wage. A waitress getting the same minimum wage but earning tips gets higher paid than care staff.

    If there's a lack of staff in the care sector it's not because they're only able to recruit from the well over 90% of the population fully vaccinated.
    The bulk of care home funding comes from local authorities who don’t have the ability to pay higher fees at the moment

    Increasing staff wages - which would be a good thing - requires a significant increase in government spending.

    There is currently a structural shortage of beds in the space so we can’t afford operators to go out of business
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,470
    Foxy said:

    I am on holday. I dont want it ruined by reading yet another thread with people venting their speens against Boris...... The benefit of hindsight .......

    Enjoy your holiday by ignoring PB then!
    That is what intend to do.... I have far more things of concern to worry me...but PB... it draws you in.. you can never leave PB... I guess I could have a row with someone and flounce as so many have done before!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,869
    Foxy said:



    But we must also bring China into this: if China had been truthful about the scale of the problem they faced back in early 2020, then the world might have been a little more prepared. Their lies and denials could well have led to the loss of countless lives.

    All they needed to say to the world was: "This is really, really bad, people." Instead they said: "Move along; nothing to see here."

    Wuhan, and other cities in Hubei, entered lockdown on 23rd January 2020, and a more extreme lockdown than any that we have seen. It was all over the news every night. The evacuation flight of Britons left Wuhan on 31 January, and all BA direct flights to Mainland China stopped.

    Italy went into lockdown on 22nd Feb, and was also all over the news every day. The first cases in London started in February, and by March all 4 UK countries had cases. So we knew how severe the disease could be and that it was spreading in the community here by the end of February. We closed schools on 18 March, and went into lockdown on 23rd March.

    The idea that we didn't know or weren't warned so couldn't lockdown earlier is simply nonsense.
    On the other hand, just look at what the WHO were saying at the time, and the 'advice' they were giving ...

    Also, look at the scientific advice the government was getting, as others have mentioned below.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,714
    edited October 12

    I'm not happy that the phrasing is entirely about whether our liberties were swept away soon enough. Especially since the NHS didn't collapse which was the excuse to take away our civil liberties.

    1/2

    I think that Johnson is ill-equipped to be Prime Minister, but won't let that entirely drive my views on the inevitable inquiry into our pandemic response - which should be broad, rational and scientific - and neutral.

    It is clear that those who hate Johnson will try to use it for party political reasons and I think this is regrettable, but this tendency has been there throughout and I detected and lamented this in a post here as early as last April. Consider Mike's comment in the header ("the UK has the worst death toll in Europe") true (assuming all countries methodology is the same and is as reliable) but doesn't allow for our population size, density, international hub etc etc. It's party politicking a pandemic, and I say that as a fellow LibDem.

    Our initial response was following a very swift response in Asia, a fast response in some major Eurpoean countries, us a week or so later and the States after that. It is obviously more problematic and grave for a state to come over authoritarian in some countries than others.



  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,714
    edited October 12
    Stocky said:

    I'm not happy that the phrasing is entirely about whether our liberties were swept away soon enough. Especially since the NHS didn't collapse which was the excuse to take away our civil liberties.

    I think that Johnson is ill-equipped to be Prime Minister, but won't let that entirely drive my views on the inevitable inquiry into our pandemic response - which should be broad, rational and scientific - and neutral.

    It is clear that those who hate Johnson will try to use it for party political reasons and I think this is regrettable, but this tendency has been there throughout and I detected and lamented this in a post here as early as last April. Consider Mike's comment in the header ("the UK has the worst death toll in Europe") true (assuming all countries methodology is the same and is as reliable) but doesn't allow for our population size, density, international hub etc etc. It's party politicking a pandemic, and I say that as a fellow LibDem.

    Our initial response was following a very swift response in Asia, a fast response in some major Eurpoean countries, us a week or so later and the States after that. It is obviously more problematic and grave for a state to come over authoritarian in some countries than others.



    2/2

    Any inquiry must look at things in the round. For example, the care home protocols need investigating to be sure. Was the decision to move each patient to a care home when positive or untested a government instruction or was it made by the particular clinician (under instruction from bods above?)? What would have happened if these people had NOT been moved, would there have been fewer beds and other hospital resources available at the admission end? I suspect this issue is not as clear cut as the Johnson-haters (even though I am one) pretend and the important thing about the inquiry is to establish best practice for the future not to settle political scores. PPE provision was clearly inadequate and best practice protocols can be amended for the eventuality of a future similar crisis. The inquiry must be constructive not score-settling.

    Like you, I am appalled and shell-shocked by the ease (as I see it) that civil liberties were withdrawn. Ferguson's comments around this are instructive: "We couldn't get away with it in Europe, we thought. And then Italy did it.”

    We seemed to exit liberal democracy far too readily for me off the back of fear tactics and playing on our NHS national religion - by the government but other actors too. Was this legal? Any enquiry must address this.

    If true that best-practice in the future would advise a week-faster response would best-practice have been to come out of the first lockdown earlier (as I believed, I was banging on about this at the time)? It was far too easy for the government to extend it. Was the second lockdown even necessary? Regarding the third lockdown, I recall that we locked down two or three days after the new variant was discovered but why did we take so long to come out of this third lockdown? The route out was glacially slow; was the government motivated more from fear of criticism from vocal opponents rather than by science or legality.

    These are just some of the questions I want answering. A lot of this comes down to checks and balances in a liberal democracy.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff.
    Then the care homes should demand more cash and offer a pay rise and not pay minimum wage. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

    Care staff have a lot of similar duties to nurses etc but are expected to wipe people's bums, at night, providing close personal care for the national minimum wage. A waitress getting the same minimum wage but earning tips gets higher paid than care staff.

    If there's a lack of staff in the care sector it's not because they're only able to recruit from the well over 90% of the population fully vaccinated.
    The bulk of care home funding comes from local authorities who don’t have the ability to pay higher fees at the moment

    Increasing staff wages - which would be a good thing - requires a significant increase in government spending.

    There is currently a structural shortage of beds in the space so we can’t afford operators to go out of business
    There is the cash to offer Nurses a 3% pay rise but not enough cash to pay care staff a penny more than the minimum wage? For a night shift job providing close personal care to societies most vulnerable people? 🤔

    The interesting thing is that many universities now are offering degrees in social care. So we have people going to university, getting a degree in social care, then working in the social care sector ... For minimum wage. 🤦‍♂️
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,513
    The government keeps saying that at least the NHS hasn’t collapsed but it fucking has. Anyone who has tried to use the NHS other than for a jab in the last 2 years will tell you that.

    I’ve had surgery cancelled twice so far this year and counting. My neighbour who had a heart attack’s rehab keeps getting cancelled and my girlfriend can’t even get a blood test at her GP.

    The thing is simply not fit for purpose right now
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,691

    I'm not happy that the phrasing is entirely about whether our liberties were swept away soon enough. Especially since the NHS didn't collapse which was the excuse to take away our civil liberties.

    That to me is the key point. It seems incredibly simplistic to say that a lockdown in March 2020 would have saved thousands of lives. There was a potentially lethal virus on the loose in this country, significant numbers of people who were otherwise vulnerable because of age, obesity or co-morbidity were going to get it and a certain percentage of those were going to die.

    An earlier lockdown might have postponed some of these deaths but that is not saying that it would have prevented them. The priority for the government was to ensure that the NHS were not completely overwhelmed as we saw in northern Italy and elsewhere driving up the death rate. They succeeded. Indeed the Nightingale hospitals were barely called upon but were a sensible contingency in case they did not. But they did.

    The vast majority of those who died early in the pandemic were frankly always going to die of this disease. They were the low hanging fruit. This report is bordering on stupid. Our scientists and our politicians were given the correct priorities: make sure that the inevitable peaks of this virus were not so high as to overwhelm the health service. Anything else is frankly delusional.

    The delay in the winter lockdown is much harder to defend because by that time we knew the cavalry, in the form of effective vaccines, was coming so delay had a point. In March 2020 it really didn't.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 62,731

    Charles said:

    Heathener said:

    This egregious attempt to let Boris off the hook by lazy appeal to 'hindsighting' needs to be called out and ground down. It's utter nonsense.

    A political leader of any calibre ALWAYS keeps abreast of facts with an eye for detail and an attention to their brief. It's their job. They are SUPPOSED to lead.

    Can anyone really tell me that Margaret Thatcher or even Tony Blair would have been so shockingly inept as Johnson was in spring 2019? Permitting events like the Cheltenham Festival to continue when Italy had already gone into lockdown has nothing to do with us using hindsighting.

    It was, and is, the most shocking example of an inept useless buffoon who never should have been elected Prime Minister and who is totally unfit for the office.

    "Permitting events like Cheltenham to continue" ... this entire line of thinking is outrageously authoritarian.

    The onus is on the state to have an extremely good reason for sweeping away our civil liberties, not the other way around, and we should never lose sight of that.

    The more this gets spoken about like this the more I think I may have been wrong to back lockdown and the Swedish option may have been better.

    Because it's one thing saying this is needed to stop the NHS from collapsing but now it's been normalised as it should have been done for other reasons.
    I had an interesting couple of meetings yesterday about the “no jab no job” policy in the care homes sector

    People increasingly recognising it was a mistake but very difficult to walk back from.

    As a data point one care home CEO mentioned to me they had had 1,800 fatalities since (I think) March. 1% of them were “with COVID” (not even of COVID). His view is no jab no job is a massive over-reaction which will exacerbate staff shortages and hence reduce the quality of care.

    More to the point the government is now pushing for mandatory flu vaccines for care home staff despite 50% efficacy… the principle of mandatory vaccines has been established and the government is pushing for further and ongoing intervention
    When Philip_Thompson was strongly advocating the "no jab, no job" policy a few days ago, I did point out that it could actually result in an increase in potential deaths in care homes due to lack of staff.
    Then the care homes should demand more cash and offer a pay rise and not pay minimum wage. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

    Care staff have a lot of similar duties to nurses etc but are expected to wipe people's bums, at night, providing close personal care for the national minimum wage. A waitress getting the same minimum wage but earning tips gets higher paid than care staff.

    If there's a lack of staff in the care sector it's not because they're only able to recruit from the well over 90% of the population fully vaccinated.
    Perhaps they should offer pay rises, but that doesn't detract from the point that, as Charles has indicated, a "no jab, no job" policy could well cause an increase in care home deaths. Are you so beholden to your ideology that deaths are no longer important?
    Infecting the most vulnerable people with the virus could also increase deaths.

    You have to balance the risks. Care home residents have no choice but to be in the home. They have no say and no choice over who looks after them. The risk is negligible for everyone else but care residents are by far and away the most vulnerable to infection.

    If the care worker so lacks in care that they don't care if they infect societies most vulnerable individuals with the disease then they shouldn't be working in the sector. That will reduce deaths. Replace them with people who do care enough to get vaccinated.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,074
    edited October 12
    Morning all

    FPT (it's educational on insulating your house :smile: )

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    The government will ban new gas boilers from 2035, and Brits will be given £4K - £7k to install electric heat pumps

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1447672384362844162?s=20

    Being entirely selfish it will not effect my wife and I
    As it happens this policy will, I predict, be dropped by a shameless Johnson days after COP21 ends and the whole circus has moved out of Glasgow.
    I thought it was COP26 but I just think it is unworkable

    My house is fully insulated but @Gallowgate said that only houses built in the last 20 years would qualify for the degree of insulation required and he is an expert on the subject
    I think the distinction is between fully insulated (in the sense of as much insulation as you can sensibly put on an older house), which is less than the amount of insulation you need to allow a heat pump to make your house reliably comfortable.

    Design the building right ("Passivhaus") and you can cut the heating requirements by 75% or so, which is handily the sort of carbon dioxide reduction we're looking for.
    I don't see why it should be thought of as unworkable.

    A ban on new installs of gas boilers from 2035 gives us until about 2045-2050 to replace all of them - which is well over 20 years - since they all have a lifecycle.

    The Scottish Government policy announced today (I posted a link earlier) is 5 years earlier:

    Their net zero target date is 2045 (vs 2050).

    Ban on installing fossil fuel boilers from 2025 for off-gas properties
    Ban on installing fossil fuel boilers from 2030 for all properties

    The suggestion for England is 5 years behind the Scottish proposals. If it all fails @malcolmg and @Theuniondivvie will be donning their knitted popsocks 5 years before @TSE and @Leon .

    It's important to ignore the Greens, just as we ignore Extinction Rebellion, as they have marketed their position as essentially broadcasting the fictional claim that "nothing has been done".

    A huge amount has been done.
    I just can't see how it will work.

    Are we really going to force someone to demolish a house just because their boiler has packed in? Because that's effectively what you are doing if you require everyone to use a heat pump in all circumstances.

    My 1920s bungalow doesn't have a full cavity, so it would have to go. There's no space to clad it externally.

    Or are we going to end up forcing people to go back to direct electrical heating of the kind you still find in places off the gas network?

    The government will end up having to make exceptions. Many of them.
    That's not right.

    It's perfectly possible properly to insulate / improve solid walled houses. I have done a whole series of them myself. It doesn't need a full cavity - which as you say weren't a regular thing until perhaps 1925-1930.

    You can internally insulate it (which will take around 3-4" off each external wall done well), or externally insulate it. In either case you can easily take it up to a decent standard (say a C or even a B on the EPC scale). Those approaches are even routinely used under the ECO programme for people who qualify for support, and have been for many years. Perhaps there are slightly more wrinkles and PM needed, but it is a normal thing to do.

    Today building without a cavity is also a normal thing to do in many technologies / types of build.

    Personally I have done an 1850s cottage, several pre WW1, and a couple more from the 1920s - all solid walled.

    Yes there will be exceptions, but a very small proportion.

    If you're house is very well insulated (not difficult, just lots) direct electrical heating can be fine and is coming back for new houses. One option is to have essentially Willis Heaters (like immersion heaters) installed directly in the slab, and run them on Economy-7. A quality house will take days to leak the heat out, so that approach can work fine running overnight.

    These days many do not bother with heating upstairs, except perhaps an electric towel rail and a fan heater in the cupboard for once a year when a boost is needed or something breaks.

    (Though that highlights that for well-insulated, airtight houses, controlled cooling is as important as controlled heating.)

  • Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Do we know who's paying for Johnson's Spanish holiday yet?

    He is staying at the private Villa of Zack Goldsmith, who he made a peer last year. One favour deserves another...
    Isn't he a personal friend of Carrie
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