While I think that @Philip_Thompson is overreacting a bit to @Northern_Al mentioning the Hassidic Jews, I do think raising them is entirely missing the most important thing in the whole "letterbox" sensationalism. Boris wasn't trying to defend the Hassidic Jew outfit from those wanting to ban it. He wasn't writing to an audience with a (probably much) higher than average percentage of people wanting to have it banned.
But this was the case with his writing about the burqa. He presumably thought he had to show his audience that he was on their side with the "jokes", so that he could persuade them that banning it was a lousy idea.
A cynic might say that Boris's sole motive was to please his audience. And Boris's audience isn't particularly renowned for its passionate concern for women's and ethnic-minority rights.
What percentage of his audience of Telegraph readers do you think wouldn't have wanted to ban the Burqa at that time?
I suspect nearly 100%. But how many did out of concern for the right's of the wearer, or because they thought it lowered the tone of the place, we will probably never know.
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
It makes me feel ashamed. Sad pathetic losers who want to blame everyone else for all of their failings and stupidities. They bring shame on a brilliant country and I am sick of them.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
Scotland Israel is headline story on BBC sport page and third story in the Guardian. No reference to the match anywhere at all on the telegraph sport page. What is that about?
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
Former President Trump takes another step towards a 2024 run with a rally on Saturday in Iowa, sending a signal to his GOP rivals that he retains a strong grip on a vital state in the nominating calendar.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
I will never forget a former SNP supporting colleague telling me I'd have to walk around with a cross of Saint George sewn on my coat when I lived in a Free Scotland. He was so drunk that he didn't remember the incident the following day. I did not renew his contract a few months later.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
I heard - when I lived in England - That telegraph is good for cricket reports. So no big story - as you were.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
It's a true story Divvie. Choose not believe in it if you want.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
It's a true story Divvie. Choose not believe in it if you want.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Why were they menacing you?
I'm new in Torry (So new that I don't quite know if it's in Aberdeen or not) - And I am a bit eccentric so I wear a blazer.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
It's a true story Divvie. Choose not believe in it if you want.
Thanks, will do.
Scotland the land of Milk and Honey in Aberdonian in Weegie land Divvies head
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
Suspect a lot of it will be underwater now. Particularly the Black Sea. But that’s just my uninformed speculation. There can't just be two sites in isolation.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Why were they menacing you?
I'm new in Torry (So new that I don't quite know if it's in Aberdeen or not) - And I am a bit eccentric so I wear a blazer.
I've seen Scottish football fans be aggressively anti-English, in a particularly surly way, indeed I've seen it from Scots elsewhere. English football fans are also, let it be said, often a pretty ugly bunch
Yet most Scots are incredibly friendly (as are the English), on my recent trip around north Scotland/Orkney my daughter and I met nothing but nice people (a lot of them English incomers!)
98% of the British are a warm, welcoming people, let us never forget that. These twats are a tiny but loud minority
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
I remember that chap you don't know, Sean, telling PB about Göbekli Tepe many years ago. I even bought and read his book (The Genesis Secret?) off the back of it. I quite enjoyed the read; though particularly gruesome in parts, it was quite gripping, amusing, informative and well written. It's a lovely coincidence that you have a similar level of interest to him. If you are ever lucky enough to meet Tom Knox (you seem to run in similar circles), do please thank him for the introduction to such fascinating pre-history!
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
If the EU is not a nation state and is a trade organisation or similar then absolutely national constitutions should have primacy. Interestingly the German constitutional court has made a similar ruling, but that wasn't as controversial as the Poles saying the same thing as the Germans since the EU won't stand up to the Germans in the same way as it would to the Poles.
One irony is that the UK far more than any other nation treated the supremacy of EU law as unchallengeable. In part because we embedded the EU into our own unwritten constitution but the Poles haven't to the same extent.
Certainly in America if there's a conflict between their own Constitution and an international 'law' or agreement then their Constitution remains supreme. There's no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for the Germans and Poles and anyone else.
If that cuts the EU back down to size and makes the principle of subsidiarity actually mean something, then the EU might be better in the long-run for it.
The problem with that that Philip is, to take an example, if German law says that Beer can only have 4 ingredients and EU law allows other ingredients then German law is a barrier to trade and an infringement of the SM. Without the supremacy of EU law the EU on its current form cannot therefore operate. Of course a much looser trade arrangement might seek to resolve such disputes by arbitration etc but that is not the way that the EU is set up now nor is it how it has been set up since the Treaty of Rome.
Yes. It is set up to create a clash of sovereignties, with a view (others disagree) to being the overriding sovereignty in due course. That is the meaning of ever closer union.
Each nation preserves its own sovereignty but (as we now know) only in that it can unilaterally leave the union. It has no other way of overriding the EU or the ECJ. This was thought to be a theoretical sovereignty only, until it wasn't.
If it had been set up only on a basis of a customs union and single market in goods and services, but not people (leaving that to states) we would still be in it by acclamation. No flag, no Euro, no 'parliament'. The ECJ similar to any other international tribunal. In trying to do too much it may still end up destroying itself.
Brexit does rather let the cat out of the bag.
Brexit is pretty unique, tho. We were always semi detached, we are a major middle power in our own right, we have global alliances, we are the home of the world language, our capital is a world city, we have a feeling of ourselves as different, an island, with a big if flawed economy, blah blah
Even then about 1/3 of the UK thinks we are incapable if being independent and soon we will be eating gravel
No other EU nation matches our profile. To feel the need, and have the ability, to escape the EU you need to be rich, confident, culturally different, and - surely - not already in the euro, which makes departure near impossible.
Denmark? Too small. Sweden? Ditto, but just possibly
If and when the Eastern European countries get richer, as Ireland did, then I reckon they WILL leave. Poland is too proud, as we see
Poland is "too proud" to pool sovereignty to make the Single Market work? Like us then. But, as you point out, they are not blessed with being an island.
"We're not European, how can we be? Europe is miles away over the sea!"
It gets better and better, this one. At first you think "doggerel" then you realize it is actually summing up in a simple but not simplistic way what lies at the very heart of why we've left the EU.
I liked that verse, in a way. It is indeed doggerel but it is good doggerel, like some of those kitsch poems about death that are pretty cringe and yet somehow effective, in the right mood and moment
In fact I googled it to see where it came from. It's in loads of anthologies of generally terrible popular doggerel, but it is hard to find the actual author
That couplet rather stands out. It expresses its sentiment efficiently without fuss or fanfare. Most of the rest is brittle paranoid little englander whine. The curious mix of inferiority and superiority complex you get in that space. I always think of Tony Parsons for some reason, when I come across such stuff, sorry Tone. Perhaps he wrote it.
Anyway, I sense you want to kick back and have some 'brandy and cigars' chat with kindred spirits about which countries are "proud" (like us and Poland) or "craven" (like France or Italy?) or "just a bit bashful" (like Sweden and the Scandis?) so I'll leave you to it.
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
God knows how you hunter gather enough calories to feed the necessary workforce, the theory always was that you can't have pyramids till you have bread and beer. Certainly wouldn't want to live off the land there now, but it may have been a garden of Eden back then. So long ago it's almost in an ice age.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
It's a true story Divvie. Choose not believe in it if you want.
Thanks, will do.
I've no idea whether this anecdote is true. But there's no denying that the atmosphere has changed as frustration sets in among the more, well, what can I call them, lets say more single-tracked Indy supporters. Part of the problem, for the enthusiastic, is the majority of folk up here are simply not interested anymore. Sturgeon goes through the motions, as do the Unionists, but most normal people are pretty bored by it all.
Doing it for these women, and empowering them with their western liberal rights is one thing. I guess I agree. But my main argument is different;
They should be forced to ditch the burka for *US* - for the shared concept of an *US.*
A recognition that they live in the same society as the rest of us. Like not wearing your pajamas when you go to the supermarket. Or taking the effort to learn English. It’s about basic decency toward their fellow countryman/women.
I don’t care if it’s seen by liberals as authoritarian. It’s this argument that, I think, cuts through and has broad support (in a way that the liberal womens rights argument fails).
Let’s be honest about it and not pretend we’re doing it entirely for them. A decent, inclusive case can be made to legislate to ditch the burka. It’s cultural separatism and not part of Britain and our shared British values. It offends and fragments our sense of us.
Speak for yourself. I object to the Government telling me what *I* can wear, never mind Muslim women. Today it's the burka, tomorrow it'll be T-shirts with messages that might annoy someone. I get super-libertarian about this sort of thing - it is None of the Government's Business What We Wear (bar basic decency).
Obviously if people are forced to wear a burka that's something else, and there are laws against coercive control. But the idea that there is One True Standard to which we must all conform is positively Maoist, and if the Government tries to impose one it can fuck right off.
I agree with you on the libertarianism, and incidentally so too did the now-PM in that infamous article, but the entire point of the burqa is about coercive control and segregating and dehumanising women. There is no flipside to it.
So while you're addressing your concerns about the government getting involved [and I completely agree with that] it seems you have nothing to say about the repugnant misogynistic evil that it is. Do you have anything to say on that subject, or do you just want to turn a blind eye to that and fire your ire just on a hypothetical future government?
No role for government in fighting evil? Odd stance. Are we leaving it to Batman?
Absolutely 100% yes.
The state "fighting evil" could have in the past in this country (or the present in other countries) led to myself and other individuals on this site being executed in the name of "fighting evil". The state fighting evil has led to atheists, or gays, or women who want to control their own bodies or a plethora of other individuals being executed or persecuted.
The state fighting evil was the notion being Section 28.
It is not the state's job to determine good and evil. But it is all of ours.
In the words of John Stuart Mill:
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.
It’s worth remembering the history. The burqa was hardly seen in the Arab world until the British banned it in Egypt. It was then adopted as a sign of anti-British Arab nationalism.
Fundamentally it’s not anti-women (they are just collateral damage). It’s an explicit and political rejection of Western values.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
This is surely indicating something very wrong with the Tory vote, all the YouGov metrics look terrible and yet they have Labour doing the worst of any pollster
Tbf to YouGov, they show Labour worst because they show Green best. They don't show any difference in the Tory share. However, I'm voting Labour for lower taxes is a sign of the rabbit hole Brexit has taken us down.
The Tory vote is, I suggest, solid but brittle. It is based on being the only party that supports Brexit, the character of Boris and the unelectability of Labour as a party. This is not stable and could fracture any time, but it is solid looking in the absence of a coherent alternative.
Once it changes, for example if the mood changes to the thought that Labour can live with Brexit and deal OK with it, and the SKS can run the country as decently as anyone else, and there are no third options, it could change fast.
Look for example at the moment when the public laugh at Boris not with him. That would be the end.
Hence my view that a Tory majority and NOM are equal in the betting.
I like this well-argued view of yours that NOM is as likely as another Con majority. I don't agree with it but I like it. I track you as one of my bellweathers. The first time - if it happens - when you flip and say Con majority should be odds on will be a moment of note.
Very kind comment. The future is pretty uncertain right now. It may look clearer if the government can get through the winter. At the moment it is hard to see a lot of upside for the Tories while the other parties collectively have the insuperable advantage of not being the government.
Of all the stuff coming our way, I think inflation is top of the pile for the Tories. It's the sort of issue that would make Brexiteers put Brexit down the priority list.
Inflation is a huge issue as it destroys people's wealth.
Well, that's not a problem for the poorest 30% who have nothing.
Well indeed. If you've got lots of debt (and this country now has 100% debt to GDP just for the state) then inflation destroys the debt. That's a good thing.
If you've got lots of assets and not debt, its a different beast.
People speak about how under 40s have no problems with inflation as they've not experienced it - but luckily all those elderly people who did but have accumulated wealth and assets have ensured their children and grandchildren had the same opportunities for wealth. And didn't load them down with debt.
Oh. Oops.
If you have lots of debt inflation helps (eroding the real burden)
If you have lots of assets inflation helps (asset price inflation)
The people who are hurt are people with income but not many assets - people in their early 30s saving up to buy their first home for instance
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Why were they menacing you?
I'm new in Torry (So new that I don't quite know if it's in Aberdeen or not) - And I am a bit eccentric so I wear a blazer.
I've seen Scottish football fans be aggressively anti-English, in a particularly surly way, indeed I've seen it from Scots elsewhere. English football fans are also, let it be said, often a pretty ugly bunch
Yet most Scots are incredibly friendly (as are the English), on my recent trip around north Scotland/Orkney my daughter and I met nothing but nice people (a lot of them English incomers!)
98% of the British are a warm, welcoming people, let us never forget that. These twats are a tiny but loud minority
That's true (thank God). But the twats are not without influence. And they could sour things quite seriously. It's such a shame to see this needless stoking of division in this small island of ours.
Doing it for these women, and empowering them with their western liberal rights is one thing. I guess I agree. But my main argument is different;
They should be forced to ditch the burka for *US* - for the shared concept of an *US.*
A recognition that they live in the same society as the rest of us. Like not wearing your pajamas when you go to the supermarket. Or taking the effort to learn English. It’s about basic decency toward their fellow countryman/women.
I don’t care if it’s seen by liberals as authoritarian. It’s this argument that, I think, cuts through and has broad support (in a way that the liberal womens rights argument fails).
Let’s be honest about it and not pretend we’re doing it entirely for them. A decent, inclusive case can be made to legislate to ditch the burka. It’s cultural separatism and not part of Britain and our shared British values. It offends and fragments our sense of us.
Speak for yourself. I object to the Government telling me what *I* can wear, never mind Muslim women. Today it's the burka, tomorrow it'll be T-shirts with messages that might annoy someone. I get super-libertarian about this sort of thing - it is None of the Government's Business What We Wear (bar basic decency).
Obviously if people are forced to wear a burka that's something else, and there are laws against coercive control. But the idea that there is One True Standard to which we must all conform is positively Maoist, and if the Government tries to impose one it can fuck right off.
I agree with you on the libertarianism, and incidentally so too did the now-PM in that infamous article, but the entire point of the burqa is about coercive control and segregating and dehumanising women. There is no flipside to it.
So while you're addressing your concerns about the government getting involved [and I completely agree with that] it seems you have nothing to say about the repugnant misogynistic evil that it is. Do you have anything to say on that subject, or do you just want to turn a blind eye to that and fire your ire just on a hypothetical future government?
No role for government in fighting evil? Odd stance. Are we leaving it to Batman?
Absolutely 100% yes.
The state "fighting evil" could have in the past in this country (or the present in other countries) led to myself and other individuals on this site being executed in the name of "fighting evil". The state fighting evil has led to atheists, or gays, or women who want to control their own bodies or a plethora of other individuals being executed or persecuted.
The state fighting evil was the notion being Section 28.
It is not the state's job to determine good and evil. But it is all of ours.
In the words of John Stuart Mill:
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.
It’s worth remembering the history. The burqa was hardly seen in the Arab world until the British banned it in Egypt. It was then adopted as a sign of anti-British Arab nationalism.
Fundamentally it’s not anti-women (they are just collateral damage). It’s an explicit and political rejection of Western values.
While I'd agree that it's worth us non burqa wearers remembering the entirely unintended consequences (Freakonomic effect?) of banning things, I doubt the reminder would be much solace to those forced to wear them.
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
God knows how you hunter gather enough calories to feed the necessary workforce, the theory always was that you can't have pyramids till you have bread and beer. Certainly wouldn't want to live off the land there now, but it may have been a garden of Eden back then. So long ago it's almost in an ice age.
I do have some knowledge in this area, literally and scholastically.
It WAS a garden of Eden then. A pastoral paradise full of game, well watered, big rivers, savannahs and forests, perfect living conditions for humans to grow a civilisation. Only problem: they didn't have agriculture, so they domesticated the local grasses, einkorn wheat (the earliest farming in west Eurasia), the earliest domestic pigs and sheep also come from this area.
It was long thought Gobekli Tepe was a one off. A Stonehenge. A temple (probably) built by 1000 cavemen who then went on to be farmers to feed the temple-goers
But just looking at those photos of Karahan Tepe (and a couple of other local sites on Twitter) you can see identical motifs and designs, in all the sites, the monsters and leopards, the T-shaped pillars, this is the same people doing ALL of this.
This is surely a grand civilisation. Yet without agriculture. And where are the human bones, the houses, the burials, they must have lived and died here, but where are they?
????
Fucking BRILLIANT
I am tempted to fly there tomorrow. Why the F not. Go see
This is surely indicating something very wrong with the Tory vote, all the YouGov metrics look terrible and yet they have Labour doing the worst of any pollster
Tbf to YouGov, they show Labour worst because they show Green best. They don't show any difference in the Tory share. However, I'm voting Labour for lower taxes is a sign of the rabbit hole Brexit has taken us down.
The Tory vote is, I suggest, solid but brittle. It is based on being the only party that supports Brexit, the character of Boris and the unelectability of Labour as a party. This is not stable and could fracture any time, but it is solid looking in the absence of a coherent alternative.
Once it changes, for example if the mood changes to the thought that Labour can live with Brexit and deal OK with it, and the SKS can run the country as decently as anyone else, and there are no third options, it could change fast.
Look for example at the moment when the public laugh at Boris not with him. That would be the end.
Hence my view that a Tory majority and NOM are equal in the betting.
I like this well-argued view of yours that NOM is as likely as another Con majority. I don't agree with it but I like it. I track you as one of my bellweathers. The first time - if it happens - when you flip and say Con majority should be odds on will be a moment of note.
Very kind comment. The future is pretty uncertain right now. It may look clearer if the government can get through the winter. At the moment it is hard to see a lot of upside for the Tories while the other parties collectively have the insuperable advantage of not being the government.
Of all the stuff coming our way, I think inflation is top of the pile for the Tories. It's the sort of issue that would make Brexiteers put Brexit down the priority list.
Inflation is a huge issue as it destroys people's wealth.
Well, that's not a problem for the poorest 30% who have nothing.
Well indeed. If you've got lots of debt (and this country now has 100% debt to GDP just for the state) then inflation destroys the debt. That's a good thing.
If you've got lots of assets and not debt, its a different beast.
People speak about how under 40s have no problems with inflation as they've not experienced it - but luckily all those elderly people who did but have accumulated wealth and assets have ensured their children and grandchildren had the same opportunities for wealth. And didn't load them down with debt.
Oh. Oops.
If you have lots of debt inflation helps (eroding the real burden)
If you have lots of assets inflation helps (asset price inflation)
The people who are hurt are people with income but not many assets - people in their early 30s saving up to buy their first home for instance
That depends surely if wage inflation is greater than asset inflation or vice-versa does it not?
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Jeez, you can see it on HERE
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
Seattle Times ($) King County Councilmember Kathy Lambert backtracks, apologizes for mailer, as supporters condemn it as racist
King County Councilmember Kathy Lambert apologized Friday for a political mailer roundly condemned as racist, after supporters of her campaign and longtime donors condemned her actions and withdrew their endorsements.
It was a seesaw development, as Lambert, as recently as Friday morning, continued to defend the mailer, before changing course later in the day.
Lambert, who’s facing a tough reelection after two decades of running mostly unopposed, sent the mailer, which portrays her opponent as a marionette and her colleague on the Council, Girmay Zahilay, as a puppet master.
The Washington Association of Realtors and its local affiliate Friday morning rescinded their endorsement of Lambert and asked her to return the $1,000 they had given her campaign.
The Seattle Mariners, who had donated $500 to Lambert’s campaign before the primary, condemned the mailer and said they would now donate $1,000 to Lambert’s opponent, Sarah Perry.
Larry Gossett, the local civil rights legend who served with Lambert on the County Council for 18 years, rescinded his endorsement, calling her mailer “just racist” and “really wrong.”
Five elected officials in Lambert’s district, all of whom had been neutral in her race, endorsed her opponent on Friday.
And The Seattle Times editorial board (which operates separately and independently from the newsroom) rescinded its endorsement of Lambert.
On Friday morning, Lambert defended the mailer, writing on Facebook that the mailer showed her opponent “will be a rubber stamp for bringing radical Seattle policies to the Eastside.”
But, hours later, she deleted the post. It was soon replaced with another, offering a full apology.
“I need to apologize for the harm that the flyer has caused to Councilmember Zahilay, my colleagues, the public I have long worked for and appreciate and to my family,” Lambert wrote. “My dedication and heart are not to hurt, but to serve. This message is certainly not what was intended.”
She said she had fired her political consultant.
The mailer, created for Lambert’s campaign by 1892 LLC, a Republican political consulting firm, shows Zahilay holding the puppet strings, joined by Seattle City Councilmember Kshama Sawant, Vice President Kamala Harris and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.
Zahilay’s face is edited onto a pinstriped suit and a red bow tie.
Big red letters label Perry, a former executive at Seattle University and other local nonprofits, a “socialist puppet” backed by “Seattle socialist leader Girmay Zahilay.”
Zahilay, earlier this week, denounced the ad as racist and inaccurate, noting that he’s not a socialist and he’s not the only County Council member to endorse Perry. But he is the only Black member of the County Council.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
God knows how you hunter gather enough calories to feed the necessary workforce, the theory always was that you can't have pyramids till you have bread and beer. Certainly wouldn't want to live off the land there now, but it may have been a garden of Eden back then. So long ago it's almost in an ice age.
I do have some knowledge in this area, literally and scholastically.
It WAS a garden of Eden then. A pastoral paradise full of game, well watered, big rivers, savannahs and forests, perfect living conditions for humans to grow a civilisation. Only problem: they didn't have agriculture, so they domesticated the local grasses, einkorn wheat (the earliest farming in west Eurasia), the earliest domestic pigs and sheep also come from this area.
It was long thought Gobekli Tepe was a one off. A Stonehenge. A temple (probably) built by 1000 cavemen who then went on to be farmers to feed the temple-goers
But just looking at those photos of Karahan Tepe (and a couple of other local sites on Twitter) you can see identical motifs and designs, in all the sites, the monsters and leopards, the T-shaped pillars, this is the same people doing ALL of this.
This is surely a grand civilisation. Yet without agriculture. And where are the human bones, the houses, the burials, they must have lived and died here, but where are they?
????
Fucking BRILLIANT
I am tempted to fly there tomorrow. Why the F not. Go see
I was there in spring 7 or 8 years ago - great time to go with all the fruit trees blossoming. Strongly tempted to go again next spring.
And if you haven't been to Mount Nemrut it's 3 hours away by car.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
One other thought on No Time To Die. I think it should have been a 15 on account of the opening sequence. It felt completely out of place in a Bond film, but the BBFC didn’t even mention what I thought was inappropriate for a 12a.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Since I'm probably the only other person on here who has drunk in Torry bars (more often than the persecuted JBriskin3 by the sounds of it) I can quite believe that if some twerp in a blazer started going on about 'SNP types' and betting against Scotland is the value during a Scotland match, he may very well get short shrift. I also note that those who love getting exercised by this type of unverifiable anecdote were largely unmoved by thousands of racist, sectarian unionists shitting (in some cases literally) all over the centre of Scotland's largest city, twice.
Still, I would be most interested to know the tell tale signs of 'SNP types' to help me in my efforts to blend in to normal society.
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
Bloody hell. A room 75 foot wide. Built 11000 years ago
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
God knows how you hunter gather enough calories to feed the necessary workforce, the theory always was that you can't have pyramids till you have bread and beer. Certainly wouldn't want to live off the land there now, but it may have been a garden of Eden back then. So long ago it's almost in an ice age.
I do have some knowledge in this area, literally and scholastically.
It WAS a garden of Eden then. A pastoral paradise full of game, well watered, big rivers, savannahs and forests, perfect living conditions for humans to grow a civilisation. Only problem: they didn't have agriculture, so they domesticated the local grasses, einkorn wheat (the earliest farming in west Eurasia), the earliest domestic pigs and sheep also come from this area.
It was long thought Gobekli Tepe was a one off. A Stonehenge. A temple (probably) built by 1000 cavemen who then went on to be farmers to feed the temple-goers
But just looking at those photos of Karahan Tepe (and a couple of other local sites on Twitter) you can see identical motifs and designs, in all the sites, the monsters and leopards, the T-shaped pillars, this is the same people doing ALL of this.
This is surely a grand civilisation. Yet without agriculture. And where are the human bones, the houses, the burials, they must have lived and died here, but where are they?
????
Fucking BRILLIANT
I am tempted to fly there tomorrow. Why the F not. Go see
I was there in spring 7 or 8 years ago - great time to go with all the fruit trees blossoming. Strongly tempted to go again next spring.
And if you haven't been to Mount Nemrut it's 3 hours away by car.
My first visit was around now. Mid autumn. 2006? Had tulip tea with Klaus Schmidst himself, sitting casually by a Gobekli Tepe pillar. Unforgotteble. There were no tourists then, of course, and you could wander around the site at will
Indeed if you went at dusk (I did that as well) you could sit amongst the megaliths all alone with a glass of wine watching the sun go down over the Kurdish hills. There was no fence, no wall, no infastructure, no nothing. MAGIC
I am severely tempted to visit Karahan Tepe very soon. The forecast looks good
The header illustrates the problem in getting sensible informal arrangements beteween Labour and LibDems. In C&A, Labour only ran a token campaign to give the LibDems a good shot. Here we have a seat where Labour starts with nearly three times the LibDem vote (indeed they lost their deposit in 2017). Do the LibDems hold back? Not if they take Mike's advice.
If followed, this will militate against Labour holding back in Blue Wall seats - it simply can't be reasonable to make it one-way traffic. TimS, a London LibDem member, on the last thread said that he hadn't seen any sign of LD mobilisation for an effort here. Let's hope he's right.
This is a big factor to consider when trying to predict the GE. The Holy Grail of a Hung Parliament - oh the poverty of reduced expectations! - is hard to envisage unless we and the LDs work together on seat by seat targeting.
For all the talk of seat by seat targeting of tactical voting, you still find voters who find it very distasteful - and markedly more inclined to vote for the party being "ganged up on". Especially at general elections.
Yes, I can imagine. But net net I think the impact would be more non-Con seats and from where we're coming from it will be needed.
I can only think of one way in which the Conservatives might contrive to lose OB&S - trying to exploit their unassailable majority by parachuting in an unsympathetic non-local candidate, splitting the local party and provoking a dirty fight with a 'genuine local Tory'. In such a situation a resurgent LibDem vote might just edge past the divided Tory factions and take the seat. But I doubt if Labour has any potential to grow further, regardless of the situation. I'd be prepared to have a nibble at the LibDems if the Tories start playing silly buggers. Not otherwise.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Since I'm probably the only other person on here who has drunk in Torry bars (more often than the persecuted JBriskin3 by the sounds of it) I can quite believe that if some twerp in a blazer started going on about 'SNP types' and betting against Scotland is the value during a Scotland match, he may very well get short shrift. I also note that those who love getting exercised by this type of unverifiable anecdote were largely unmoved by thousands of racist, sectarian unionists shitting (in some cases literally) all over the centre of Scotland's largest city, twice.
Still, I would be most interested to know the tell tale signs of 'SNP types' to help me in my efforts to blend in to normal society.
One also wonders why tthe subject of Mr Briskin's foreskin came up. It's not a subject that has great prominence (no pun intended) in general Sc ottish discourse. He wasn't waving it, was he?
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
Yeah I guess that's fair, what really made it for me was the generous spirit of the people. When we went to the Greek only taverna the guy was so amazed to have 8 foreigners eating at his place, he didn't do the free raki and free small desert you get in the tourist towns but he was a really amazing host, you could tell he just wanted all of us to have an amazing experience of traditional Greek food, which we did.
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
Lunch at the Roth Bar & Grill with friends today, outside in the beautiful golden October aftenoon sunshine. Great food and service and perfect autumn weather.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
To my (tin) ear "Old Bexley and Sidcup" sounds like it was a popular snake-oil tonic of yesteryear, plus an equally (and thankfully) antiquated medical device.
"Mr Smithson, that IS an ugly rash you've got there, one of the worst cases I've ever seen in my years of medicinal practice. However, a case or two of Old Bexley mixture will soon set things right! Use this convenient Sidcup (separate fee for shipping & handling) to apply the healing (albeit astringent) balm to the affected area once every three hours for the next few fortnights."
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
It makes me feel ashamed. Sad pathetic losers who want to blame everyone else for all of their failings and stupidities. They bring shame on a brilliant country and I am sick of them.
David, very very poor you agreeing with such crap. The poster is obviously a deranged halfwit. Does he have some super powers that can spot SNP supporters or is it just he is an arsehole of the first order.
This is surely indicating something very wrong with the Tory vote, all the YouGov metrics look terrible and yet they have Labour doing the worst of any pollster
Tbf to YouGov, they show Labour worst because they show Green best. They don't show any difference in the Tory share. However, I'm voting Labour for lower taxes is a sign of the rabbit hole Brexit has taken us down.
The Tory vote is, I suggest, solid but brittle. It is based on being the only party that supports Brexit, the character of Boris and the unelectability of Labour as a party. This is not stable and could fracture any time, but it is solid looking in the absence of a coherent alternative.
Once it changes, for example if the mood changes to the thought that Labour can live with Brexit and deal OK with it, and the SKS can run the country as decently as anyone else, and there are no third options, it could change fast.
Look for example at the moment when the public laugh at Boris not with him. That would be the end.
Hence my view that a Tory majority and NOM are equal in the betting.
I like this well-argued view of yours that NOM is as likely as another Con majority. I don't agree with it but I like it. I track you as one of my bellweathers. The first time - if it happens - when you flip and say Con majority should be odds on will be a moment of note.
Very kind comment. The future is pretty uncertain right now. It may look clearer if the government can get through the winter. At the moment it is hard to see a lot of upside for the Tories while the other parties collectively have the insuperable advantage of not being the government.
Of all the stuff coming our way, I think inflation is top of the pile for the Tories. It's the sort of issue that would make Brexiteers put Brexit down the priority list.
Inflation is a huge issue as it destroys people's wealth.
Well, that's not a problem for the poorest 30% who have nothing.
Well indeed. If you've got lots of debt (and this country now has 100% debt to GDP just for the state) then inflation destroys the debt. That's a good thing.
If you've got lots of assets and not debt, its a different beast.
People speak about how under 40s have no problems with inflation as they've not experienced it - but luckily all those elderly people who did but have accumulated wealth and assets have ensured their children and grandchildren had the same opportunities for wealth. And didn't load them down with debt.
Oh. Oops.
If you have lots of debt inflation helps (eroding the real burden)
If you have lots of assets inflation helps (asset price inflation)
The people who are hurt are people with income but not many assets - people in their early 30s saving up to buy their first home for instance
That depends surely if wage inflation is greater than asset inflation or vice-versa does it not?
If real wages are going up then inflation doesn’t really matter.
To be clearer, the issue with inflation is it reduces purchasing power. Consumer price inflation means people can afford a lower standard of living for a given wage. Asset price inflation means they struggle to afford it finance key assets.
If wages are going up relative to consumer prices and asset prices then there isn’t really an issue in the real economy as standards of living are increasing
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Numpty halfwit
Briskin or his abuser?
Briskin , he is an absolute fruitcake, how the F**k did he know they were SNP supporters. No-one supporting the Scotland football team would be shouting come on the SNP. A serious halfwitted cretinous loser.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
Yeah I guess that's fair, what really made it for me was the generous spirit of the people. When we went to the Greek only taverna the guy was so amazed to have 8 foreigners eating at his place, he didn't do the free raki and free small desert you get in the tourist towns but he was a really amazing host, you could tell he just wanted all of us to have an amazing experience of traditional Greek food, which we did.
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
Where were you? Crete? One of the other islands?
Greece is brilliant, and yes there is a particular type of arrogant German, I know exactly what you mean. I have actually seen dust-ups between Greeks and these Germans. The Greeks do Hitler salutes to mock their strutting.
Intriguing
The Greeks I have met are also more pro-British than they used to be, because Brexit, I think (also they just missed our money during Covid). They are probably the most eurosceptic country left in the EU, for obvious reasons
Whereas in parts of France, say, you can sometimes detect a definite new chilliness, at least in officialdom
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Since I'm probably the only other person on here who has drunk in Torry bars (more often than the persecuted JBriskin3 by the sounds of it) I can quite believe that if some twerp in a blazer started going on about 'SNP types' and betting against Scotland is the value during a Scotland match, he may very well get short shrift. I also note that those who love getting exercised by this type of unverifiable anecdote were largely unmoved by thousands of racist, sectarian unionists shitting (in some cases literally) all over the centre of Scotland's largest city, twice.
Still, I would be most interested to know the tell tale signs of 'SNP types' to help me in my efforts to blend in to normal society.
Since you ask so nicely the worst aspects of nationalism are:
An inferiority complex which manifests itself in anger and resentment for every failure of our own. A somewhat bizarre blood and soil passion which resents the outsider and feels the need to threaten them. More recently, the desperate desire to cut down any tall poppies because they show the dishonesty of the excuses resulting in a hatred of success and ambition. A reluctance to see how much we have in common with the other parts of our United Kingdom, instead focusing on and seeking to magnify difference.
The consequences for this country have been terrible. The Scots have in their history been keen to "get ahead", they valued education and indeed a man (and it was usually a man) on the make. We have lost our vitality, our entrepreneurial skills and ambition, our self belief. The terrible irony is the further we go down this dark road the more unviable independence becomes. Its tragic.
This is surely indicating something very wrong with the Tory vote, all the YouGov metrics look terrible and yet they have Labour doing the worst of any pollster
Tbf to YouGov, they show Labour worst because they show Green best. They don't show any difference in the Tory share. However, I'm voting Labour for lower taxes is a sign of the rabbit hole Brexit has taken us down.
The Tory vote is, I suggest, solid but brittle. It is based on being the only party that supports Brexit, the character of Boris and the unelectability of Labour as a party. This is not stable and could fracture any time, but it is solid looking in the absence of a coherent alternative.
Once it changes, for example if the mood changes to the thought that Labour can live with Brexit and deal OK with it, and the SKS can run the country as decently as anyone else, and there are no third options, it could change fast.
Look for example at the moment when the public laugh at Boris not with him. That would be the end.
Hence my view that a Tory majority and NOM are equal in the betting.
I like this well-argued view of yours that NOM is as likely as another Con majority. I don't agree with it but I like it. I track you as one of my bellweathers. The first time - if it happens - when you flip and say Con majority should be odds on will be a moment of note.
Very kind comment. The future is pretty uncertain right now. It may look clearer if the government can get through the winter. At the moment it is hard to see a lot of upside for the Tories while the other parties collectively have the insuperable advantage of not being the government.
Of all the stuff coming our way, I think inflation is top of the pile for the Tories. It's the sort of issue that would make Brexiteers put Brexit down the priority list.
Inflation is a huge issue as it destroys people's wealth.
Well, that's not a problem for the poorest 30% who have nothing.
Well indeed. If you've got lots of debt (and this country now has 100% debt to GDP just for the state) then inflation destroys the debt. That's a good thing.
If you've got lots of assets and not debt, its a different beast.
People speak about how under 40s have no problems with inflation as they've not experienced it - but luckily all those elderly people who did but have accumulated wealth and assets have ensured their children and grandchildren had the same opportunities for wealth. And didn't load them down with debt.
Oh. Oops.
If you have lots of debt inflation helps (eroding the real burden)
If you have lots of assets inflation helps (asset price inflation)
The people who are hurt are people with income but not many assets - people in their early 30s saving up to buy their first home for instance
That depends surely if wage inflation is greater than asset inflation or vice-versa does it not?
If real wages are going up then inflation doesn’t really matter.
To be clearer, the issue with inflation is it reduces purchasing power. Consumer price inflation means people can afford a lower standard of living for a given wage. Asset price inflation means they struggle to afford it finance key assets.
If wages are going up relative to consumer prices and asset prices then there isn’t really an issue in the real economy as standards of living are increasing
To what extent are they going up due to cuts over the last two years?
I mean, my wages, real or otherwise, are not going up, but equally, they never went down.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Numpty halfwit
Briskin or his abuser?
Briskin , he is an absolute fruitcake, how the F**k did he know they were SNP supporters. No-one supporting the Scotland football team would be shouting come on the SNP. A serious halfwitted cretinous loser.
The implication of that sentence is that SNP supporters don’t support the Scotland football team. Is that really what you meant?
I was out walking the dog earlier, we came to this bit where there's a small river running through a tunnel under a disused railway line. It's steep and quite a long way up to old railway, but there are some steps. At the bottom the river is slow and shallow, the Lab's belly only just touches the water, and there's an old tree that overhangs the water. As long as I've been walking there, there's been a fairly safe looking rope swing hanging from the tree over the water.
When we arrived there were two young kids, presumably older (8ish yo) brother and much smaller (5ish yo) sister. I couldn't see the Dad at first, but then heard the boy shout up to the railway "Dad! I'm going on the rope swing!" and I think Dad replied with "Whatever, I'm not coming down"
Then boy "jumped".
It was pathetic by any measure. The rope was two foot from the edge and he leaned over, grabbed it like he didn't want to disturb it, then dropped the rest of his body towards it. He moved the rope less than a foot across and quickly came to a halt over the (very shallow) water about 18 inches below his feet.
Then he started aggressively shrieking. "DADDY COME AND SAVE ME!" over and over. The dog got quite upset, she hid behind me. Daddy shouted, "I already told you I'm not coming down!". Boy nearly explodes.
Girl, silently, goes right to edge. Then she hooks her feet under an exposed root on the bank and throws her little arms out towards him, grabs his coat and pulls him to safety. She's still silent.
There was about five seconds silence. Then boy shouts "Are you going on the rope swing" at girl. She replies (only word she said) "No"
Boy says, aggressively again, "Don't be a wimp, it was brilliant when I went on it"
I wanted to go and tell Dad how quietly brilliant and brave his little daughter was, but I didn't want to get too close to his dick of a son just in case he coincidentally happened to slip down the embankment into the river when I was closest to him.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Since I'm probably the only other person on here who has drunk in Torry bars (more often than the persecuted JBriskin3 by the sounds of it) I can quite believe that if some twerp in a blazer started going on about 'SNP types' and betting against Scotland is the value during a Scotland match, he may very well get short shrift. I also note that those who love getting exercised by this type of unverifiable anecdote were largely unmoved by thousands of racist, sectarian unionists shitting (in some cases literally) all over the centre of Scotland's largest city, twice.
Still, I would be most interested to know the tell tale signs of 'SNP types' to help me in my efforts to blend in to normal society.
One also wonders why tthe subject of Mr Briskin's foreskin came up. It's not a subject that has great prominence (no pun intended) in general Sc ottish discourse. He wasn't waving it, was he?
One suspect people may have associated supporting Israel with a desire to be circumcised
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Jeez, you can see it on HERE
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
More English crap from halfwoits who rage and spit bile day in and day out about loads of countries. You take the opinoin of a deranged halfwit spouting obvious lies , add your jingoistic collonial crap an dinsult us. F**K right off as far as you can F**k off.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Pathetic David, was he running about waving a union jack and shouting I am not Scottish, utter shite of the first order from a deranged halfwit.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
Yeah I guess that's fair, what really made it for me was the generous spirit of the people. When we went to the Greek only taverna the guy was so amazed to have 8 foreigners eating at his place, he didn't do the free raki and free small desert you get in the tourist towns but he was a really amazing host, you could tell he just wanted all of us to have an amazing experience of traditional Greek food, which we did.
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
Where were you? Crete? One of the other islands?
Greece is brilliant, and yes there is a particular type of arrogant German, I know exactly what you mean. I have actually seen dust-ups between Greeks and these Germans. The Greeks do Hitler salutes to mock their strutting.
Intriguing
The Greeks I have met are also more pro-British than they used to be, because Brexit, I think (also they just missed our money during Covid). They are probably the most eurosceptic country left in the EU, for obvious reasons
Whereas in parts of France, say, you can sometimes detect a definite new chilliness, at least in officialdom
We were in Crete. We had a private chef for 5 days of the 10 and that was good but he did Modern Mediterranean food and specialised in Mediterranean BBQ which was incredible but not particularly greek, especially the use of smoking methods it felt more Latin.
Yeah the Greeks were amazing and we're a pretty European group, three English, one Swiss (my wife), two Italians, one Finn and one Dutch. But yeah, you could tell that they weren't massively impressed by the older Germans. The older German couple talking loudly in English to an older English couple about how Greeks were all lazy was definitely a low for German tourists, really quite embarrassing and cringey.
Since you ask so nicely the worst aspects of nationalism are:
An inferiority complex which manifests itself in anger and resentment for every failure of our own. A somewhat bizarre blood and soil passion which resents the outsider and feels the need to threaten them. More recently, the desperate desire to cut down any tall poppies because they show the dishonesty of the excuses resulting in a hatred of success and ambition. A reluctance to see how much we have in common with the other parts of our United Kingdom, instead focusing on and seeking to magnify difference.
The consequences for this country have been terrible. The Scots have in their history been keen to "get ahead", they valued education and indeed a man (and it was usually a man) on the make. We have lost our vitality, our entrepreneurial skills and ambition, our self belief. The terrible irony is the further we go down this dark road the more unviable independence becomes. Its tragic.
If only the thrawn, doomed Scots would drink the BJ Kool-aid..
Still, the current set up must suit you, you get the type of politicians and politics you prefer imposed on Scotland without the inconvenience of persuading folk to vote for it, so it's not all bleak.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Jeez, you can see it on HERE
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
More English crap from halfwoits who rage and spit bile day in and day out about loads of countries. You take the opinoin of a deranged halfwit spouting obvious lies , add your jingoistic collonial crap an dinsult us. F**K right off as far as you can F**k off.
I’m glad to hear you’re not sour and bitter, Malc. Never become it, or your keyboard might just melt
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Numpty halfwit
Briskin or his abuser?
Briskin , he is an absolute fruitcake, how the F**k did he know they were SNP supporters. No-one supporting the Scotland football team would be shouting come on the SNP. A serious halfwitted cretinous loser.
The implication of that sentence is that SNP supporters don’t support the Scotland football team. Is that really what you meant?
No the point is that no-one would be giving a toss about the SNP , they would be caring about the football and qualifying for the world cup. Why the F**K would anyone have brought up the SNP and were they wearing SNP tattoo's on their brows so he could recognise them, fake crap from a sad loser.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
I’m sure I could Finn-aigle something
Although you have to start at the Krakow dawn every morning.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
If the EU is not a nation state and is a trade organisation or similar then absolutely national constitutions should have primacy. Interestingly the German constitutional court has made a similar ruling, but that wasn't as controversial as the Poles saying the same thing as the Germans since the EU won't stand up to the Germans in the same way as it would to the Poles.
One irony is that the UK far more than any other nation treated the supremacy of EU law as unchallengeable. In part because we embedded the EU into our own unwritten constitution but the Poles haven't to the same extent.
Certainly in America if there's a conflict between their own Constitution and an international 'law' or agreement then their Constitution remains supreme. There's no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for the Germans and Poles and anyone else.
If that cuts the EU back down to size and makes the principle of subsidiarity actually mean something, then the EU might be better in the long-run for it.
Yeah, but when you sign the treaty to join the EU, you agree to certain things - and that includes areas where EU law is above national law.
If you don't like them, then you either negotiate to change the treaties, or you leave.
Yes but the issue is that the ECJ chooses to extend their authority into areas the treaties did not specify they are above national law.
There is nothing in the treaties to say that the EU gets a say in national courts and the ECJ ruling was extremely biased to give the EU such a say. In which case I see nothing unreasonable in national courts interpreting the treaties in their own way and saying "no, that's not in the treaty, its not your jurisdiction".
Hang on there.
In Article 2 of the fundamental Treaty on the European Union it lists obligations on the states, including an Independent Judiciary, and what it means to have one.
There is no doubt that the recent Polish moves are in contravention of that obligation, because they mean that the President can dismiss judges who give rulings that they disagree with.
I think you are conflating a perfectly reasonable objection the ECJ (that it is fundamentally expansionist in aims), with a clear breach of treaty obligations by the Poles.
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Jeez, you can see it on HERE
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
More English crap from halfwoits who rage and spit bile day in and day out about loads of countries. You take the opinoin of a deranged halfwit spouting obvious lies , add your jingoistic collonial crap an dinsult us. F**K right off as far as you can F**k off.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
France went to war in 1939 because of an invasion of Poland. Sure, it didn't do them much practical use, but you would have to say the same for UK and Empire too.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
If the EU is not a nation state and is a trade organisation or similar then absolutely national constitutions should have primacy. Interestingly the German constitutional court has made a similar ruling, but that wasn't as controversial as the Poles saying the same thing as the Germans since the EU won't stand up to the Germans in the same way as it would to the Poles.
One irony is that the UK far more than any other nation treated the supremacy of EU law as unchallengeable. In part because we embedded the EU into our own unwritten constitution but the Poles haven't to the same extent.
Certainly in America if there's a conflict between their own Constitution and an international 'law' or agreement then their Constitution remains supreme. There's no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for the Germans and Poles and anyone else.
If that cuts the EU back down to size and makes the principle of subsidiarity actually mean something, then the EU might be better in the long-run for it.
Yeah, but when you sign the treaty to join the EU, you agree to certain things - and that includes areas where EU law is above national law.
If you don't like them, then you either negotiate to change the treaties, or you leave.
Yes but the issue is that the ECJ chooses to extend their authority into areas the treaties did not specify they are above national law.
There is nothing in the treaties to say that the EU gets a say in national courts and the ECJ ruling was extremely biased to give the EU such a say. In which case I see nothing unreasonable in national courts interpreting the treaties in their own way and saying "no, that's not in the treaty, its not your jurisdiction".
Hang on there.
In Article 2 of the fundamental Treaty on the European Union it lists obligations on the states, including an Independent Judiciary, and what it means to have one.
There is no doubt that the recent Polish moves are in contravention of that obligation, because they mean that the President can dismiss judges who give rulings that they disagree with.
I think you are conflating a perfectly reasonable objection the ECJ (that it is fundamentally expansionist in aims), with a clear breach of treaty obligations by the Poles.
Where exactly does it say that the ECJ can rule on the composition of national courts? How is it defined?
Unless I'm looking at the wrong Article 2, I'm not seeing it here.
Could we see a new Government formed? The Social Democrats, Freedom Party and Greens would between them have a majority in the Austrian Parliament but it's hard to see a stable coalition.
The last poll I saw had the People's Party still well ahead of the opposition with a solid 33-35% of the vote.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
Yeah I guess that's fair, what really made it for me was the generous spirit of the people. When we went to the Greek only taverna the guy was so amazed to have 8 foreigners eating at his place, he didn't do the free raki and free small desert you get in the tourist towns but he was a really amazing host, you could tell he just wanted all of us to have an amazing experience of traditional Greek food, which we did.
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
Where were you? Crete? One of the other islands?
Greece is brilliant, and yes there is a particular type of arrogant German, I know exactly what you mean. I have actually seen dust-ups between Greeks and these Germans. The Greeks do Hitler salutes to mock their strutting.
Intriguing
The Greeks I have met are also more pro-British than they used to be, because Brexit, I think (also they just missed our money during Covid). They are probably the most eurosceptic country left in the EU, for obvious reasons
Whereas in parts of France, say, you can sometimes detect a definite new chilliness, at least in officialdom
We were in Crete. We had a private chef for 5 days of the 10 and that was good but he did Modern Mediterranean food and specialised in Mediterranean BBQ which was incredible but not particularly greek, especially the use of smoking methods it felt more Latin.
Yeah the Greeks were amazing and we're a pretty European group, three English, one Swiss (my wife), two Italians, one Finn and one Dutch. But yeah, you could tell that they weren't massively impressed by the older Germans. The older German couple talking loudly in English to an older English couple about how Greeks were all lazy was definitely a low for German tourists, really quite embarrassing and cringey.
To be fair there is also a particular, odious type of super-entitled mega-rich tourist who could be from any western country, definitely including Britain
They were brilliantly skewered in the drama White Lotus. There they were American, but you could replace with English, French, Italian, German, no problem
The Brits are still probably the best at wild drunken misbehaviour by the kidz, tho the Scandis and Russians are trying to overtake
I do have to say: I am not one for rigorous dress codes, but if pubbing in downtown Torry, probably less with the blazers, already. Painting a target on one's back...
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
You think he's hungary for power?
Well, he might end up a Pest if he was.
You think you inflicted a serious wound with that pun? 'Twas buda scratch.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
May be you could call it the Austro-Hungarian Republic?
Great idea. Suggest it. They might Magyar an offer to help set it up.
I’m sure I could Finn-aigle something
Although you have to start at the Krakow dawn every morning.
You just Lviv for these puns, right? You used to Lvov them, but then stuff happened
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
If the EU is not a nation state and is a trade organisation or similar then absolutely national constitutions should have primacy. Interestingly the German constitutional court has made a similar ruling, but that wasn't as controversial as the Poles saying the same thing as the Germans since the EU won't stand up to the Germans in the same way as it would to the Poles.
One irony is that the UK far more than any other nation treated the supremacy of EU law as unchallengeable. In part because we embedded the EU into our own unwritten constitution but the Poles haven't to the same extent.
Certainly in America if there's a conflict between their own Constitution and an international 'law' or agreement then their Constitution remains supreme. There's no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for the Germans and Poles and anyone else.
If that cuts the EU back down to size and makes the principle of subsidiarity actually mean something, then the EU might be better in the long-run for it.
Yeah, but when you sign the treaty to join the EU, you agree to certain things - and that includes areas where EU law is above national law.
If you don't like them, then you either negotiate to change the treaties, or you leave.
Yes but the issue is that the ECJ chooses to extend their authority into areas the treaties did not specify they are above national law.
There is nothing in the treaties to say that the EU gets a say in national courts and the ECJ ruling was extremely biased to give the EU such a say. In which case I see nothing unreasonable in national courts interpreting the treaties in their own way and saying "no, that's not in the treaty, its not your jurisdiction".
Hang on there.
In Article 2 of the fundamental Treaty on the European Union it lists obligations on the states, including an Independent Judiciary, and what it means to have one.
There is no doubt that the recent Polish moves are in contravention of that obligation, because they mean that the President can dismiss judges who give rulings that they disagree with.
I think you are conflating a perfectly reasonable objection the ECJ (that it is fundamentally expansionist in aims), with a clear breach of treaty obligations by the Poles.
Where exactly does it say that the ECJ can rule on the composition of national courts? How is it defined?
Unless I'm looking at the wrong Article 2, I'm not seeing it here.
Greece was amazing. Sad to not be on holiday but nice feeling to be home again. Definitely a real sense of relief when we touched down in Stansted, got in the car and drove back to my parents' house.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
You need to try Athens. That is where a new Greek cuisine is being made and it is maybe as good as modern British (from a similarly basic level!)
Yeah I guess that's fair, what really made it for me was the generous spirit of the people. When we went to the Greek only taverna the guy was so amazed to have 8 foreigners eating at his place, he didn't do the free raki and free small desert you get in the tourist towns but he was a really amazing host, you could tell he just wanted all of us to have an amazing experience of traditional Greek food, which we did.
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
Where were you? Crete? One of the other islands?
Greece is brilliant, and yes there is a particular type of arrogant German, I know exactly what you mean. I have actually seen dust-ups between Greeks and these Germans. The Greeks do Hitler salutes to mock their strutting.
Intriguing
The Greeks I have met are also more pro-British than they used to be, because Brexit, I think (also they just missed our money during Covid). They are probably the most eurosceptic country left in the EU, for obvious reasons
Whereas in parts of France, say, you can sometimes detect a definite new chilliness, at least in officialdom
We were in Crete. We had a private chef for 5 days of the 10 and that was good but he did Modern Mediterranean food and specialised in Mediterranean BBQ which was incredible but not particularly greek, especially the use of smoking methods it felt more Latin.
Yeah the Greeks were amazing and we're a pretty European group, three English, one Swiss (my wife), two Italians, one Finn and one Dutch. But yeah, you could tell that they weren't massively impressed by the older Germans. The older German couple talking loudly in English to an older English couple about how Greeks were all lazy was definitely a low for German tourists, really quite embarrassing and cringey.
They are buggers with their towels on the sun loungers too...
Could we see a new Government formed? The Social Democrats, Freedom Party and Greens would between them have a majority in the Austrian Parliament but it's hard to see a stable coalition.
The last poll I saw had the People's Party still well ahead of the opposition with a solid 33-35% of the vote.
I dislike Kurz. He's my age but has already been leader of his country for years, while I'm beginning to suspect I'll never lead mine.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
If the EU is not a nation state and is a trade organisation or similar then absolutely national constitutions should have primacy. Interestingly the German constitutional court has made a similar ruling, but that wasn't as controversial as the Poles saying the same thing as the Germans since the EU won't stand up to the Germans in the same way as it would to the Poles.
One irony is that the UK far more than any other nation treated the supremacy of EU law as unchallengeable. In part because we embedded the EU into our own unwritten constitution but the Poles haven't to the same extent.
Certainly in America if there's a conflict between their own Constitution and an international 'law' or agreement then their Constitution remains supreme. There's no real reason why it shouldn't be the same for the Germans and Poles and anyone else.
If that cuts the EU back down to size and makes the principle of subsidiarity actually mean something, then the EU might be better in the long-run for it.
Yeah, but when you sign the treaty to join the EU, you agree to certain things - and that includes areas where EU law is above national law.
If you don't like them, then you either negotiate to change the treaties, or you leave.
Yes but the issue is that the ECJ chooses to extend their authority into areas the treaties did not specify they are above national law.
There is nothing in the treaties to say that the EU gets a say in national courts and the ECJ ruling was extremely biased to give the EU such a say. In which case I see nothing unreasonable in national courts interpreting the treaties in their own way and saying "no, that's not in the treaty, its not your jurisdiction".
Hang on there.
In Article 2 of the fundamental Treaty on the European Union it lists obligations on the states, including an Independent Judiciary, and what it means to have one.
There is no doubt that the recent Polish moves are in contravention of that obligation, because they mean that the President can dismiss judges who give rulings that they disagree with.
I think you are conflating a perfectly reasonable objection the ECJ (that it is fundamentally expansionist in aims), with a clear breach of treaty obligations by the Poles.
Where exactly does it say that the ECJ can rule on the composition of national courts? How is it defined?
Unless I'm looking at the wrong Article 2, I'm not seeing it here.
The rule of law requires an independent judiciary. Otherwise it is just gangsterism with a warrant. See Russia.
And that being listed as a "value" gives a blank cheque to the ECJ to cast whatever judgments it feels like? Despite no powers for the ECJ of jurisdiction there being listed? Or any obligations either?
This has to be the best Scottish performance in the last 10 years, way better than when they played England off the park in the Euros. And they could still lose.
I was enjoying watching the match in my new local - but the SNP types were threatning to cut my foreskin off so I thought it best just to leave.
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
Seriously? Jesus.
It was quite scary. But that's Scotland nowadays
An 'anecdote' by some PB rando is half way round the heads of the gullible before the truth has put its boots on.
The reason I believe it Divvie is that so many see so much of this sad, pathetic crap. Of course many supporters of independence are not like this but there are too many that are.
Jeez, you can see it on HERE
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
More English crap from halfwoits who rage and spit bile day in and day out about loads of countries. You take the opinoin of a deranged halfwit spouting obvious lies , add your jingoistic collonial crap an dinsult us. F**K right off as far as you can F**k off.
‘PM Viktor Orbán has signed a government resolution which supports the decision of the Polish constitutional court about the primacy of national law above EU law.
The resolution also calls on EU institutions to respect national sovereignty.’
Is there another domino to fall? Poland and Hungary really is rounding up the usual suspects.....
French domestic politics is a tinderbox. The risk for the EU is that the mainstream candidates might end up being forced into a Cameron style demand to renegotiate the treaties.
It's already coming, you can feel it. The issue for the EU is that the precedent of Dave's renegotiation is set. Maybe the French will do better than Dave, I'm not sure bit France doesn't have many friends in the EU either and Germany see them as a needy subordinate much in the same way the US views the UK.
Another problem for France's "reset to a strategically autonomous Europe" most of Eastern Europe wants nothing to do with it, and is actively inimical to France.
A Czech military-political boffin here:
"Jakub Janda @_JakubJanda · Oct 7 Central and Eastern Europe will never support the French attempt to go sideways and create new defense structures next to NATO in Europe.
We only trust the U.S. military via NATO that they will defend us against a Russian aggression, that is why.
"Fact is that only Balts and Poles openly voice their concerns about Macron's push for "independence", but many, many other EU countries are equally concerned and not on board, they just don't want to have that dispute in public."
With France's military history it is no surprise that no one would trust them to.come to their aid.
Yes, French military strategy is almost entirely selfish. It is very hard to see France seriously coming to defend Poland or the Baltics against Russia. More likely France would reach some accord with Putin and Germany would play the lofty peacemaker
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
France went to war in 1939 because of an invasion of Poland. Sure, it didn't do them much practical use, but you would have to say the same for UK and Empire too.
Quite a long time ago
If the Baltics were invaded, would France really lead an autonomous Europe to challenge Putin? I just don't see it. If they had the Brits alongside, maybe, but we won't be there, any more. We are tilting to a maritime, oceanic strategy, allied to AUKUS, let the euros defend themselves, or not, as they wish.
The French might challenge Putin if Germany was up for it, but Germany is not up for it, any may never be so
Comments
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-10050217/Stunning-carvings-human-figures-heads-uncovered-Karahantepe.html
This stuff is so old, it's allegedly pre agricultural.
"Digging at the site first began in 2019 and has also led to the discovery of a building with a diameter of 75ft (23 metres), a large part of which is carved into the bedrock and reaches a depth of 18ft (5.5 metres).
This suggests it was built with the help of many people, archaeologists said."
I love that No shit, Sherlock final paragraph.
I could listen to him all day long.
It has long been speculated that Karahan Tepe would prove as mind-boggling as Gobekli Tepe, in the end
There are also several other candidates, for similar explosive finds, in that vast region: we have only begun to scratch the surface (literally)
It begins to look like there was an entire human civilisation out there, BEFORE agriculture, pottery, the wheel??
Deeply, deeply strange. Someone should write a wildly speculative thriller about it
Daily Mail website
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/09/new-theory-claims-covid-19-may-have-evolved-chinese-mineworker/
Yet most Scots are incredibly friendly (as are the English), on my recent trip around north Scotland/Orkney my daughter and I met nothing but nice people (a lot of them English incomers!)
98% of the British are a warm, welcoming people, let us never forget that. These twats are a tiny but loud minority
Anyway, I sense you want to kick back and have some 'brandy and cigars' chat with kindred spirits about which countries are "proud" (like us and Poland) or "craven" (like France or Italy?) or "just a bit bashful" (like Sweden and the Scandis?) so I'll leave you to it.
With some suitable background mood music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSPacDUm5dk
Fundamentally it’s not anti-women (they are just collateral damage). It’s an explicit and political rejection of Western values.
Taken their eye off the ball?
#DefundTheBBC
If you have lots of assets inflation helps (asset price inflation)
The people who are hurt are people with income but not many assets - people in their early 30s saving up to buy their first home for instance
Allez allez!
It WAS a garden of Eden then. A pastoral paradise full of game, well watered, big rivers, savannahs and forests, perfect living conditions for humans to grow a civilisation. Only problem: they didn't have agriculture, so they domesticated the local grasses, einkorn wheat (the earliest farming in west Eurasia), the earliest domestic pigs and sheep also come from this area.
It was long thought Gobekli Tepe was a one off. A Stonehenge. A temple (probably) built by 1000 cavemen who then went on to be farmers to feed the temple-goers
But just looking at those photos of Karahan Tepe (and a couple of other local sites on Twitter) you can see identical motifs and designs, in all the sites, the monsters and leopards, the T-shaped pillars, this is the same people doing ALL of this.
This is surely a grand civilisation. Yet without agriculture. And where are the human bones, the houses, the burials, they must have lived and died here, but where are they?
????
Fucking BRILLIANT
I am tempted to fly there tomorrow. Why the F not. Go see
It is heavily Leave and even in the LDs high point of 2005 and 2010 Labour were second behind the Conservatives and not the LDs.
Indeed in 2015 UKIP were less than 1% behind Labour for 2nd place so ReformUK could end up pushing the LDs into 4th
The PB Nats have been in a particularly sour, bitter mood these last weeks, and it's quite conceivable that their wilder brethren are in a similar but more drunken rage of inferiority in the pub
Seattle Times ($) King County Councilmember Kathy Lambert backtracks, apologizes for mailer, as supporters condemn it as racist
King County Councilmember Kathy Lambert apologized Friday for a political mailer roundly condemned as racist, after supporters of her campaign and longtime donors condemned her actions and withdrew their endorsements.
It was a seesaw development, as Lambert, as recently as Friday morning, continued to defend the mailer, before changing course later in the day.
Lambert, who’s facing a tough reelection after two decades of running mostly unopposed, sent the mailer, which portrays her opponent as a marionette and her colleague on the Council, Girmay Zahilay, as a puppet master.
The Washington Association of Realtors and its local affiliate Friday morning rescinded their endorsement of Lambert and asked her to return the $1,000 they had given her campaign.
The Seattle Mariners, who had donated $500 to Lambert’s campaign before the primary, condemned the mailer and said they would now donate $1,000 to Lambert’s opponent, Sarah Perry.
Larry Gossett, the local civil rights legend who served with Lambert on the County Council for 18 years, rescinded his endorsement, calling her mailer “just racist” and “really wrong.”
Five elected officials in Lambert’s district, all of whom had been neutral in her race, endorsed her opponent on Friday.
And The Seattle Times editorial board (which operates separately and independently from the newsroom) rescinded its endorsement of Lambert.
On Friday morning, Lambert defended the mailer, writing on Facebook that the mailer showed her opponent “will be a rubber stamp for bringing radical Seattle policies to the Eastside.”
But, hours later, she deleted the post. It was soon replaced with another, offering a full apology.
“I need to apologize for the harm that the flyer has caused to Councilmember Zahilay, my colleagues, the public I have long worked for and appreciate and to my family,” Lambert wrote. “My dedication and heart are not to hurt, but to serve. This message is certainly not what was intended.”
She said she had fired her political consultant.
The mailer, created for Lambert’s campaign by 1892 LLC, a Republican political consulting firm, shows Zahilay holding the puppet strings, joined by Seattle City Councilmember Kshama Sawant, Vice President Kamala Harris and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.
Zahilay’s face is edited onto a pinstriped suit and a red bow tie.
Big red letters label Perry, a former executive at Seattle University and other local nonprofits, a “socialist puppet” backed by “Seattle socialist leader Girmay Zahilay.”
Zahilay, earlier this week, denounced the ad as racist and inaccurate, noting that he’s not a socialist and he’s not the only County Council member to endorse Perry. But he is the only Black member of the County Council.
Food wise, Greece has got great herb game but very poor spice game. Bit of cinnamon in some stuff but otherwise a real lack of spice and therefore flavour. Italians have clearly got the superior cuisine, probably Span and Portugal as well. Some Greek food is really good when it's done well but it's not got enough variety to really challenge the top European cuisines. The best dinner was the tasting menu at the resort but really that was just Modern Mediterranean rather than anything specifically Greek. As a North Londoner I'm going to upset a lot of Greeks by saying our Greek food in North London is better than what I had in most greek places, just a lot more flavour.
We even went to a random taverna recommended by the waitress when one of our party asked for the name of where the locals eat and the menus aren't available in English. She sent us there and in terms of Greek food it was really very good but I think I've discovered that it just has a very low ceiling, like English food. I enjoy it when it's done well but traditional English food has got a low ceiling as well.
And if you haven't been to Mount Nemrut it's 3 hours away by car.
Still, I would be most interested to know the tell tale signs of 'SNP types' to help me in my efforts to blend in to normal society.
Indeed if you went at dusk (I did that as well) you could sit amongst the megaliths all alone with a glass of wine watching the sun go down over the Kurdish hills. There was no fence, no wall, no infastructure, no nothing. MAGIC
I am severely tempted to visit Karahan Tepe very soon. The forecast looks good
I've also discovered that German tourists are the Chinese tourists of Europe. They've absolutely overtaken us as the worst tourists of Europe. Loud, obnoxious, act as if they own anywhere they walk into. Specifically the middle aged ones, younger ones seemed pretty cool when we got chatting to some at the beach. Maybe it's a baby boomer thing across the whole world, the generation is just full of entitled wankers regardless of the specific country.
One of those rare special days.
My tip went down. Saints win 12-10.
So the E Europeans cleave to the USA.
What they should do is cleave to THEMSELVES. The combined GDP of Poland, Romania, Czechia, Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, the Baltics, etc, would not be entirely insignificant. Add in Austria maybe. If they seriously pooled their resources and manpower, bought their kit as one, became a single army, that would be a huge bulwark against Putin
These smaller multilateral alliances are the future. Aukus for the East
France is interested in what advances France, hence her desire for an Indo-Pacific strategy to protect her assets there, which she is, frankly, incapable of protecting by herself. She is no longer strong enough to seriously defend Polynesia. The Chinese could buy New Caledonia tomorrow
"Mr Smithson, that IS an ugly rash you've got there, one of the worst cases I've ever seen in my years of medicinal practice. However, a case or two of Old Bexley mixture will soon set things right! Use this convenient Sidcup (separate fee for shipping & handling) to apply the healing (albeit astringent) balm to the affected area once every three hours for the next few fortnights."
To be clearer, the issue with inflation is it reduces purchasing power. Consumer price inflation means people can afford a lower standard of living for a given wage. Asset price inflation means they struggle to afford it finance key assets.
If wages are going up relative to consumer prices and asset prices then there isn’t really an issue in the real economy as standards of living are increasing
Greece is brilliant, and yes there is a particular type of arrogant German, I know exactly what you mean. I have actually seen dust-ups between Greeks and these Germans. The Greeks do Hitler salutes to mock their strutting.
Intriguing
The Greeks I have met are also more pro-British than they used to be, because Brexit, I think (also they just missed our money during Covid). They are probably the most eurosceptic country left in the EU, for obvious reasons
Whereas in parts of France, say, you can sometimes detect a definite new chilliness, at least in officialdom
An inferiority complex which manifests itself in anger and resentment for every failure of our own.
A somewhat bizarre blood and soil passion which resents the outsider and feels the need to threaten them.
More recently, the desperate desire to cut down any tall poppies because they show the dishonesty of the excuses resulting in a hatred of success and ambition.
A reluctance to see how much we have in common with the other parts of our United Kingdom, instead focusing on and seeking to magnify difference.
The consequences for this country have been terrible. The Scots have in their history been keen to "get ahead", they valued education and indeed a man (and it was usually a man) on the make. We have lost our vitality, our entrepreneurial skills and ambition, our self belief. The terrible irony is the further we go down this dark road the more unviable independence becomes. Its tragic.
I mean, my wages, real or otherwise, are not going up, but equally, they never went down.
When we arrived there were two young kids, presumably older (8ish yo) brother and much smaller (5ish yo) sister. I couldn't see the Dad at first, but then heard the boy shout up to the railway "Dad! I'm going on the rope swing!" and I think Dad replied with "Whatever, I'm not coming down"
Then boy "jumped".
It was pathetic by any measure. The rope was two foot from the edge and he leaned over, grabbed it like he didn't want to disturb it, then dropped the rest of his body towards it. He moved the rope less than a foot across and quickly came to a halt over the (very shallow) water about 18 inches below his feet.
Then he started aggressively shrieking. "DADDY COME AND SAVE ME!" over and over. The dog got quite upset, she hid behind me. Daddy shouted, "I already told you I'm not coming down!". Boy nearly explodes.
Girl, silently, goes right to edge. Then she hooks her feet under an exposed root on the bank and throws her little arms out towards him, grabs his coat and pulls him to safety. She's still silent.
There was about five seconds silence. Then boy shouts "Are you going on the rope swing" at girl. She replies (only word she said) "No"
Boy says, aggressively again, "Don't be a wimp, it was brilliant when I went on it"
I wanted to go and tell Dad how quietly brilliant and brave his little daughter was, but I didn't want to get too close to his dick of a son just in case he coincidentally happened to slip down the embankment into the river when I was closest to him.
‘Job Position
Imam
Home » Jobs » Imam
Responsibilities and Duties:
LEADING PRAYERS
The Imam regularly leads the congregational prayer on a daily basis and delivers the
Khutbah for the jummuah prayer as and when required
MINISTERIAL
The Imam will hold regular public access surgeries for advice and religious guidance.
Solemnise Islamic marriages according to Al-Ansar Islamic education centre procedures.
Provide support and guidance to statutory and voluntary community projects
Essential Responsibilities:
Lead the five daily prayers at the Aklu Plaza’
And so on
https://akluplaza.co.uk/jobs/imam/
Yeah the Greeks were amazing and we're a pretty European group, three English, one Swiss (my wife), two Italians, one Finn and one Dutch. But yeah, you could tell that they weren't massively impressed by the older Germans. The older German couple talking loudly in English to an older English couple about how Greeks were all lazy was definitely a low for German tourists, really quite embarrassing and cringey.
Still, the current set up must suit you, you get the type of politicians and politics you prefer imposed on Scotland without the inconvenience of persuading folk to vote for it, so it's not all bleak.
In Article 2 of the fundamental Treaty on the European Union it lists obligations on the states, including an Independent Judiciary, and what it means to have one.
There is no doubt that the recent Polish moves are in contravention of that obligation, because they mean that the President can dismiss judges who give rulings that they disagree with.
I think you are conflating a perfectly reasonable objection the ECJ (that it is fundamentally expansionist in aims), with a clear breach of treaty obligations by the Poles.
Unless I'm looking at the wrong Article 2, I'm not seeing it here.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:2bf140bf-a3f8-4ab2-b506-fd71826e6da6.0023.02/DOC_1&format=PDF#:~:text=of those provisions.-,2.,as defined in the Treaties.
Article 2
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the
rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.
These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination,
tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58856796
Could we see a new Government formed? The Social Democrats, Freedom Party and Greens would between them have a majority in the Austrian Parliament but it's hard to see a stable coalition.
The last poll I saw had the People's Party still well ahead of the opposition with a solid 33-35% of the vote.
They were brilliantly skewered in the drama White Lotus. There they were American, but you could replace with English, French, Italian, German, no problem
The Brits are still probably the best at wild drunken misbehaviour by the kidz, tho the Scandis and Russians are trying to overtake
If the Baltics were invaded, would France really lead an autonomous Europe to challenge Putin? I just don't see it. If they had the Brits alongside, maybe, but we won't be there, any more. We are tilting to a maritime, oceanic strategy, allied to AUKUS, let the euros defend themselves, or not, as they wish.
The French might challenge Putin if Germany was up for it, but Germany is not up for it, any may never be so