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The Government really doesn’t want Lockdown 4 – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 18 in General
imageThe Government really doesn’t want Lockdown 4 – politicalbetting.com

Three times in the last 18 months the UK has seen COVID cases rise sharply. Three times the government has imposed national restrictions. Now cases are up again, but in a post-vaccine world the government is very resistant to go down that road. Will they be forced to?

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First...like Gav W out of the cabinet..
  • Coming back to the theme, I sense that BJ's government are desperate to leave COVID behind (as I would argue it has not been a resounding win) for the forseeable we are going to see this govt desperately try to "normalise" and have policy announcements (such as AUKUS, Commonwealth games etc) to try and move on but its perhaps too early to tell......
  • Nobody wants Lockdown 4....well other than iSage.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 11,587
    It gets better. According to the French, the Aussies have committed… ‘treason’

    ‘Recalled French ambassador accuses Australia of ‘treason in the making’’


    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/recalled-french-ambassador-accuses-australia-of-treason-in-the-making-20210918-p58ssg.html

    TREASON. Changing your mind about an arms deal is TREASON
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,487
    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5
  • Leon said:

    It gets better. According to the French, the Aussies have committed… ‘treason’

    ‘Recalled French ambassador accuses Australia of ‘treason in the making’’


    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/recalled-french-ambassador-accuses-australia-of-treason-in-the-making-20210918-p58ssg.html

    TREASON. Changing your mind about an arms deal is TREASON

    They are having more of a strop than over vaccines.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited September 18
    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    For a nation that is supposed to be our closest ally they have a funny way of showing it....crap like quasi effective vaccines, the dicking about with not allowing lorry drivers back onto ferries around Christmas, despite them posing virtually no risk, etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited September 18
    China pumps $14bn in cash into market amid Evergrande crisis

    https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/9/17/china-pumps-14bn-in-cash-into-market-amid-evergrande-crisis

    This is really really bad news. Evergrande have fingers is all sorts of pies, not just real estate, they have 200k direct employees, 3.8 million indirectly. Also, China's largest high yield dollar bond issuer.

    Add in the likes of the US going nuts with the money printing / borrowing. It could be 2008 all over again.
  • China pumps $14bn in cash into market amid Evergrande crisis

    https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/9/17/china-pumps-14bn-in-cash-into-market-amid-evergrande-crisis

    This is really really bad news. Evergrande have fingers is all sorts of pies, not just real estate, they have 200k direct employees, 3.8 million indirectly. Also, China's largest high yield dollar bond issuer.

    Add in the likes of the US going nuts with the money printing / borrowing. It could be 2008 all over again.

    I’ve been slowly selling off equities for months. Thank goodness.
  • Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Can you imagine how Parris and other Europhiles would have reacted if France, Australia and the US had formed a defensive pact and the British government had withdrawn ambassadors over it? The obvious double standard is painful.
    Feigning outrage over a hypothetical response to an imagined situation does not get us far.

    What does Germany think, or Italy? This is an arms sale, not a defensive pact. France has thrown its toys out of the pram because America has snatched an arms deal the French thought was theirs. It is not about defensive pacts. Whether there is much in it for Britain is what we should be asking.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,347
    edited September 18
    On topic. Lockdown. Question is whether cancelling Christmas for Covid might get the government off another hook if food shortages still look likely, and especially if the industry blames Brexit.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,541
    Leon said:

    It gets better. According to the French, the Aussies have committed… ‘treason’

    ‘Recalled French ambassador accuses Australia of ‘treason in the making’’


    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/recalled-french-ambassador-accuses-australia-of-treason-in-the-making-20210918-p58ssg.html

    TREASON. Changing your mind about an arms deal is TREASON

    France’s ambassador to Australia, Jean-Pierre Thebault, did not rule out suspending talks to allow French troops greater access to Australian military bases after his nation was “stabbed in the back”.

    LOL. So as a punishment they’re not going to take up the invitation to use Australian bases?

    This is a diplomatic strop for the ages.
  • Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Can you imagine how Parris and other Europhiles would have reacted if France, Australia and the US had formed a defensive pact and the British government had withdrawn ambassadors over it? The obvious double standard is painful.
    Feigning outrage over a hypothetical response to an imagined situation does not get us far.

    What does Germany think, or Italy? This is an arms sale, not a defensive pact. France has thrown its toys out of the pram because America has snatched an arms deal the French thought was theirs. It is not about defensive pacts. Whether there is much in it for Britain is what we should be asking.
    The devil certainly will be in the detail. I sense that apart from the financial aspects of the submarines (which won't be sailing for almost another 20 years) this is more about gesture politics, pact is always vague - no treaty involved at present and it perhaps represents UK and US trying to move on from the Kabul cock up.....
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,764

    Nobody wants Lockdown 4....well other than iSage.

    True, I guess the title should have 'really' in italics or something to show the emphasis.
  • ’Gavin Williamson tipped for knighthood’

    Oink, oink.
  • ‘More than 200,000 EU citizens left the UK last year, driven away by Brexit and the deepest economic slump in three centuries’

    Anyone seen any antipodean squirrels?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited September 18

    ‘More than 200,000 EU citizens left the UK last year, driven away by Brexit and the deepest economic slump in three centuries’

    Anyone seen any antipodean squirrels?

    That's a lot lower than the initial guess-estimates, which was in the 500-700k range.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,612
    One very clear lesson from this AUKUS business: if a nation seeks help in confronting China, like Australia does, it can go to the US and the UK. Not to France, Germany or the EU. It's as simple as that. Brexit has eroded trade, but not strategic sovereignty

    https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/1438968321530114052?s=21
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,879
    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,879
    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,095
    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Like the tides another 'GB wrong' article from Derbyshire's quickest ex MP for remain.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,700
    edited September 18
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Like the tides another 'GB wrong' article from Derbyshire's quickest ex MP for remain.
    It must irk a lot that both the SNP and Labour support the deal. Not sure about the LDs but who is. This episode has sparked yet another spate of BDS among the chatterers. I wonder when the French will start to harrass British migrants in Bordeaux as retaliation. :smiley:
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,700

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    Mask wearting is quite strict here in Spain. In the past 18 months both colds and flu have passed me by as a pleasing by-product.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,879
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Like the tides another 'GB wrong' article from Derbyshire's quickest ex MP for remain.
    If France had wanted to keep the submarine contract, perhaps they shouldn't have looked so much at the filthy lucre, and instead actually, you know, built something? The deal with Naval Group was signed in 2016. Construction of the first boat was only due to begin in 2023. That's seven years in which the client can change their mind.

    (Yes, I know lead times on these projects are long. But the construction timescales on the Attack class were ludicrous. 25 years - and I doubt they would meet that. And in the five years after the deal was signed, there was nothing. And in the meantime, the existing Collins class were aging.)

    As for the cost: AU$80 billion for 12 boats. The proven Japanese alternative was AU$25 billion. Other European countries were offering boats for AU$20 billion.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,970

    Leon said:

    It gets better. According to the French, the Aussies have committed… ‘treason’

    ‘Recalled French ambassador accuses Australia of ‘treason in the making’’


    https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/recalled-french-ambassador-accuses-australia-of-treason-in-the-making-20210918-p58ssg.html

    TREASON. Changing your mind about an arms deal is TREASON

    Could be a bad English, the French equivalent "trahison" is *betrayal* as well as treason (treason being a betrayal of your own country), which makes more sense in the context.
    That's correct: if you go to Google translate and convert "betrayal" from French to English you get "trahison".

    Still, let's not let reality get in the way of a good story.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    rcs1000 said:

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    That's pretty much my view:

    Vaccines have worked
    The pandemic is largely behind us
    But it's OK to be a little more paranoid than normal

    We have a friend with an nine year old child in hospital with Covid. Not serious, apparently. But the mother is in a camp bed, by his side. Not fun.

    Over the next six months, it'll work its way through unvaccinated populations. Mostly people will be fine.

    But there's no harm in us all being a little more careful than we'd normally be. An infection deferred is one that might very well be avoided altogether.
    Covid is still a real concern. In the bast two weeks I’ve had vaccinated colleagues under 40 taken ill with covid. 🤞Currently staying out of hospital, but still very poorly and damaged by it. At the very least it’s also disruptive commercially. We’re still in the woods.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,281
    The sort of market to stay clear of. There will not be another lockdown, but as Quincel says, that doesn’t make no a slam dunk.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,281

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    At the risk of starting another mask debate, do you wear a mask in all enclosed spaces? Say you go to a friend’s house, would you wear a mask there? Or in the office? I made my office return last week and a couple of people were wearing masks (not the good ones).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,879
    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,879
    tlg86 said:

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    At the risk of starting another mask debate, do you wear a mask in all enclosed spaces? Say you go to a friend’s house, would you wear a mask there? Or in the office? I made my office return last week and a couple of people were wearing masks (not the good ones).
    Yes. But I'm lucky in not having to go into offices. I fully understand the problems and inconvenience that will cause, and if I was in that situation I might make slightly different decisions.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,700
    tlg86 said:

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    At the risk of starting another mask debate, do you wear a mask in all enclosed spaces? Say you go to a friend’s house, would you wear a mask there? Or in the office? I made my office return last week and a couple of people were wearing masks (not the good ones).
    I do here in Spain - it remains mandatory in offices, shops, etc. At home if anyone visits who I don't know I'd expect them to mask up as would I. In our area this has never been an issue - although I've heard that some British holidaymakers were resistant at times. At the very least it will protect from other viral infections like colds and flu.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,281

    tlg86 said:

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    At the risk of starting another mask debate, do you wear a mask in all enclosed spaces? Say you go to a friend’s house, would you wear a mask there? Or in the office? I made my office return last week and a couple of people were wearing masks (not the good ones).
    Yes. But I'm lucky in not having to go into offices. I fully understand the problems and inconvenience that will cause, and if I was in that situation I might make slightly different decisions.
    My organisation is very keen on us being in the office. The obvious thing the government can do if they are worried about COVID or flu is mandate working from home where possible.

    Of course, the government doesn’t want to do anything to hurt the economy. But I won’t wear a mask to do something that I can do from home.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,731
    edited September 18
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 977
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    IMO the vaccines have worked. Take-up has been great but it's a shame more haven't taken it.

    I can't see Covid causing another partial lockdown, yet alone another full lockdown.

    But a Covid-flu combination could. If we even get an average flu year this year (and there are worries it may be worse), then there will be calls for restrictions to be slapped on. In many cases this will be for good, altruistic reasons; in some cases it will be because restrictions make them feel safe, or because calling for restrictions gives them power; or because restrictions can be a political weapon.

    The government needs a little steel on this. Hospitalisations need to be key; no other metrics that iSage or other opponents pull out of their backsides.

    But (sorry, PT) I'll be masking up in enclosed spaces this winter. It will help. It'll be moronic not to. ;)

    At the risk of starting another mask debate, do you wear a mask in all enclosed spaces? Say you go to a friend’s house, would you wear a mask there? Or in the office? I made my office return last week and a couple of people were wearing masks (not the good ones).
    Yes. But I'm lucky in not having to go into offices. I fully understand the problems and inconvenience that will cause, and if I was in that situation I might make slightly different decisions.
    My organisation is very keen on us being in the office. The obvious thing the government can do if they are worried about COVID or flu is mandate working from home where possible.

    Of course, the government doesn’t want to do anything to hurt the economy. But I won’t wear a mask to do something that I can do from home.
    Well they did say WFH and Masks would likely be the 1st two things to come back should we see pressure on the NHS this winter. I think both are very realistic reintroductions, especially if Covid and Flu hit hard this winter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,396
    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,997
    edited September 18

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    For a nation that is supposed to be our closest ally they have a funny way of showing it....crap like quasi effective vaccines, the dicking about with not allowing lorry drivers back onto ferries around Christmas, despite them posing virtually no risk, etc.
    France will never be anybody's closest ally, certainly not ours. They have a wildly excessive view of their place in the world. They are a democratic China - needy, chippy, unpredictable and unfortunately nuclear armed.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,376
    Of course the government doesn't want a lockdown. But equally obviously, that could make it more - not less - likely that other mandatory restrictions will be brought in. To avoid a full lockdown. This time they have been explicit enough about keeping their options open on lesser restrictions. It's only a full lockdown that would be viewed as an undeniable political failure.

    At the moment the signs seem positive, with the rate of positive tests (I wish they would stop calling it "cases", which is just plain wrong) falling, contrary to most expectations, for the second time in a couple of months.

    Deaths as a proportion of positive tests have been rising, but that is probably manageable so long as infections don't start rising rapidly again. As always, "cases" are the key, regardless of moderate fluctuations in the death rate and hospitalisation rate per "case".

    But the situation in Scotland at the moment should be a caution against thinking there's nothing to worry about any more.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,281
    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    This concerns me. Through my work I’ve booked a flu jab for 28 September. Neither of my parents (75 and 73) have been offered a flu jab yet.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 977
    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,545
    Morning all. Bit warmer this morning, according to my app. (15deg C). Went to a u3a Group meeting in someone's house, and none of us wore masks, and gave a lift to someone and there were no masks in the car either. None in the wine merchants that we visited afterwards, either. We talked about it during the Group meeting but all felt that the practice did seem to have died out, although the local pharmacy still want them, as will the surgery when I have my flu vaccination later today.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,997
    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    For a nation that is supposed to be our closest ally they have a funny way of showing it....crap like quasi effective vaccines, the dicking about with not allowing lorry drivers back onto ferries around Christmas, despite them posing virtually no risk, etc.
    France will never be anybody's closest ally, certainly not ours. They have a wildly excessive view of their place in the world. They are a democratic China - needy, chippy, unpredictable and unfortunately nuclear armed.
    On Le betting politicale they say the exact same thing about us.
    Probablement, but I don't think we've ever recalled ambassadors because we lost a commercial contract, have we?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,506

    Morning all. Bit warmer this morning, according to my app. (15deg C). Went to a u3a Group meeting in someone's house, and none of us wore masks, and gave a lift to someone and there were no masks in the car either. None in the wine merchants that we visited afterwards, either. We talked about it during the Group meeting but all felt that the practice did seem to have died out, although the local pharmacy still want them, as will the surgery when I have my flu vaccination later today.

    Largely has died out in Horsham but I wear a mask in any shop but didn't when 5 had a meal in the Pub last night, but we did wear them on the way in and until shown our table.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    For a nation that is supposed to be our closest ally they have a funny way of showing it....crap like quasi effective vaccines, the dicking about with not allowing lorry drivers back onto ferries around Christmas, despite them posing virtually no risk, etc.
    France will never be anybody's closest ally, certainly not ours. They have a wildly excessive view of their place in the world. They are a democratic China - needy, chippy, unpredictable and unfortunately nuclear armed.
    On Le betting politicale they say the exact same thing about us.
    Probablement, but I don't think we've ever recalled ambassadors because we lost a commercial contract, have we?
    Nah, we just Brexit when we don’t get exactly what we want,
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671
    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
    Which is well-intentioned, but ultimately futile if there's not enough flu vaccine to go around. When I booked my private appointment with the local Boots back on August 26th, the earliest appointment I could get was October 2nd. A colleague at work who's on the shielding list (and ought therefore to be at or near the top of the priority order) hasn't been contacted by the GP about hers yet, and suspects that they are struggling to source doses.

    I mean, I know it's still only mid-September and the campaign probably hasn't started to ramp up properly yet, but it does make you wonder.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,997
    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Jonathan said:

    Fishing said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    For a nation that is supposed to be our closest ally they have a funny way of showing it....crap like quasi effective vaccines, the dicking about with not allowing lorry drivers back onto ferries around Christmas, despite them posing virtually no risk, etc.
    France will never be anybody's closest ally, certainly not ours. They have a wildly excessive view of their place in the world. They are a democratic China - needy, chippy, unpredictable and unfortunately nuclear armed.
    On Le betting politicale they say the exact same thing about us.
    Probablement, but I don't think we've ever recalled ambassadors because we lost a commercial contract, have we?
    Nah, we just Brexit when we don’t get exactly what we want,
    I'd have more sympathy if you'd said that we join international organisations in a moment of neediness, despite being opposed to their ultimate aims, then are surprised when it blows up in our face.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
    This useful video explains Australian Defence policy.

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,545
    pigeon said:

    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
    Which is well-intentioned, but ultimately futile if there's not enough flu vaccine to go around. When I booked my private appointment with the local Boots back on August 26th, the earliest appointment I could get was October 2nd. A colleague at work who's on the shielding list (and ought therefore to be at or near the top of the priority order) hasn't been contacted by the GP about hers yet, and suspects that they are struggling to source doses.

    I mean, I know it's still only mid-September and the campaign probably hasn't started to ramp up properly yet, but it does make you wonder.
    TBH I'd be surprised if GP's (etc) had to source vaccines themselves; I would expect them to be offered from a central point. The pharmaceuticals delivery system in this country is very robust.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671

    pigeon said:

    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
    Which is well-intentioned, but ultimately futile if there's not enough flu vaccine to go around. When I booked my private appointment with the local Boots back on August 26th, the earliest appointment I could get was October 2nd. A colleague at work who's on the shielding list (and ought therefore to be at or near the top of the priority order) hasn't been contacted by the GP about hers yet, and suspects that they are struggling to source doses.

    I mean, I know it's still only mid-September and the campaign probably hasn't started to ramp up properly yet, but it does make you wonder.
    TBH I'd be surprised if GP's (etc) had to source vaccines themselves; I would expect them to be offered from a central point. The pharmaceuticals delivery system in this country is very robust.
    It would be interesting to know how much (or how little) is actually being distributed from said central point.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,545
    edited September 18
    O/t, but without trawling through all yesterday afternoon's and evenings posts, do we have any news of Ms Cyclefree's husband?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,571
    On topic, the 'clarification' on vaccine passports on 6 September is clearly why the market suddenly moved (I commented at the time wondering why that was).

    I'm with Pip on this. I'm on a profit either way, but heavily skewed towards no. I'll probably stick with that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,397

    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.

    The industry spends hundreds of billion a year on therapeutics research
  • Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671

    O/t, but without trawling through all yesterday afternoon's and evenings posts, do we have any news of Ms Cyclefree's husband?

    I did a trawl, and can't see evidence of further updates past the point at which they'd already been sat in A&E for six hours, I'm afraid.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,612
    The French "the British were just tagging along" story appears at variance with the facts:

    When the First Sea Lord was invited to a meeting at the Australian high commission in March this year, he had no idea of the magnitude of what was about to unfold. Admiral Sir Tony Radakin — described by colleagues as a “doer” — was asked by Vice-Admiral Michael Noonan, the Australian Chief of Navy, whether the British and Americans could help their ally to build a new fleet of nuclear-powered submarines......

    So began Operation Hookless — as it was codenamed inside No 10 —and the most closely guarded secret inside government in years. Only about ten people in Britain were privy to the details, including the prime minister, the foreign secretary and the defence secretary. ....

    Although initial conversations had begun around the submarines, back in No 10 an excited Johnson was keen for something much deeper. “Boris really pushed it. There was a choice about how broad it would be — was it just a technical agreement on a specific subject or is this more broad? Boris was pushing that it had to be as ambitious as possible. This was a strategic move,” a government source who was involved in the discussions said.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f8481ac4-17c1-11ec-8982-e4706e2eecb0?shareToken=1b335c267f88cba1427010ce70bbe6ba
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    Shame it was done in a way that divided the democracies on the security council, Once the low rent frog bashing subsides that may be seen as an unnecessary error that ironically weakens us against the Chinese.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,789
    On topic: I'd say "yes" is clear favourite in the Smarkets betting, not narrow as the header says.

    Currently: Yes 1.45, No 2.9

    I've been betting No in this market for a while @ 4. Just added a bit more at 2.94.

    I think No should be slight favourite.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,396
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    This concerns me. Through my work I’ve booked a flu jab for 28 September. Neither of my parents (75 and 73) have been offered a flu jab yet.
    My father (74) has booked his. Maybe their GP needs chasing?
  • pigeon said:

    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
    Which is well-intentioned, but ultimately futile if there's not enough flu vaccine to go around. When I booked my private appointment with the local Boots back on August 26th, the earliest appointment I could get was October 2nd. A colleague at work who's on the shielding list (and ought therefore to be at or near the top of the priority order) hasn't been contacted by the GP about hers yet, and suspects that they are struggling to source doses.

    I mean, I know it's still only mid-September and the campaign probably hasn't started to ramp up properly yet, but it does make you wonder.
    I was in my usual pharmacy this week picking up a prescription and they offered me an appointment for a ‘flu jab almost in passing, so I’m getting it today.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,281
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    This concerns me. Through my work I’ve booked a flu jab for 28 September. Neither of my parents (75 and 73) have been offered a flu jab yet.
    My father (74) has booked his. Maybe their GP needs chasing?
    Their GPs are next to useless.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,054
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, possibly, but has not Macron said on the record that he wants a middle course between the USA (a democracy) and China (a tyrannical dictatorship complete with concentration camps)?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    The submarines are some decade or two off service. The more immediate effect is more US forces based in Australia. This is quite an interesting piece from Australia on what it all means:

    "Hugh White : what SM has done this week. He has tied Australia to a deal that undermines our sovereign capabilities,overspends on hardware we can barely be confident of operating,& drags us closer to front line of a war we may have no interest in fighting."

    https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2021/09/18/the-submarine-the-ridiculous/163188720012499?utm_source=tsp_website&utm_campaign=social_mobile_twitter&utm_medium=social_share
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 4,735

    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.

    I think you are wrong on the facts here. There was very good work done on therapeutics in the UK - I think it was called the REACT study - and among other improvements in care it lead to the use of Dexamethasone, which cut the fatality rate by one-third. You would expect that discovery would have save tens of thousands of lives during our Alpha wave.

    There was also the improvements in supplying oxygen that came out of the ventilator challenge.

    I can't find much to fault in the medical response. There is a question over whether challenge trials should be used to speed up the vaccine development process.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,523
    edited September 18
    If we are on masks again , I dont wear them and dont see many people that do either. At work it is a personal choice and I again dont (like most people) . If those who are posting that they are wearin them now in what is the light season for covid then you are bascially admitting you are going to wear them (and push for them to worn by others ) for eternity .That is a miserable existence for society and one I will not accept - hence why I dont wear a mask . Also if the Cabinet dont wear them (as that photo earlier in the week showed) why do you think they believe that it is effective ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 4,735
    The other thing to bear in mind with the medical response to Covid is that, had the virus struck 60 years ago, the fatality rate would probably have been a lot higher, perhaps about three times as high, and standard medical procedures did a lot to save many lives.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671
    More anecdata concerning the disintegration of the NHS:

    People with cancer forced to go private

    In January this year, Steve Deeman in Nottinghamshire was looking at an eight-week delay to have the lesion on his forehead diagnosed. “It was suspicious looking and grew quite rapidly over the next few weeks,” said the 69-year-old retired teacher.

    He was referred to a local hospital dermatology department in early March and was given a consultation appointment for May. “I decided I couldn’t wait that long and sought private medical care a few days later,” he said.

    Deeman saw a specialist dermatologist who diagnosed the lesion as cancerous and it was removed the next day. His treatment so far has cost about £1,500 but further follow-ups have been recommended which could bring the total to £2,000. “I was fortunate in that I was able to afford treatment but there are a lot of people who wouldn’t be able to.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/18/i-couldnt-wait-britons-without-health-insurance-on-why-they-paid-to-go-private

    Three-year waiting lists to pull rotten teeth

    When Fabien needed to have a decayed tooth removed in May, his dentist told him that he would have to wait up to three years to have it done on the NHS. In disbelief, the 27-year-old from Edinburgh rang 50 dental practices but without any luck. He had no choice but to go private. Having lost his job during the pandemic, he was on universal credit and had to borrow the £600 from his family.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/18/private-hospitals-profit-from-nhs-waiting-lists-as-people-without-insurance-pay-out

    If you've the means and knowhow to trade in shares then private healthcare groups are probably a good bet. As the latter piece goes on to say, quoting the director of a health think tank,

    “There is a big risk that unless government provides adequate funding for the NHS, more and more people will be forced to pay privately, which in turn will undermine middle-class support for a tax-funded NHS.

    “It’s not likely that we will end up with a US-style insurance system. But a two-tier system, where the NHS is a residual service for those without the means to pay is a possibility – ultimately these are political choices.”
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    edited September 18

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, possibly, but has not Macron said on the record that he wants a middle course between the USA (a democracy) and China (a tyrannical dictatorship complete with concentration camps)?

    If you think for one moment about what Boris has said on record, I hope we are all able to look beyond current leaders and remember long term interests. I am not sure we gain anything from embarrassing the French, beyond indulging in old skool cheap laughs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946

    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.

    I think you are wrong on the facts here. There was very good work done on therapeutics in the UK - I think it was called the REACT study - and among other improvements in care it lead to the use of Dexamethasone, which cut the fatality rate by one-third. You would expect that discovery would have save tens of thousands of lives during our Alpha wave.

    There was also the improvements in supplying oxygen that came out of the ventilator challenge.

    I can't find much to fault in the medical response. There is a question over whether challenge trials should be used to speed up the vaccine development process.
    There are also interesting new agents too such as Sng001

    https://www.synairgen.com/

    By its mechanism of action it should work on all respiratory viruses, not just coronavirus variants. Phase 3 trials reporting soon.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,789
    edited September 18
    I'm reading the travel rule changes announced yesterday.

    It says:

    "Passengers who aren’t recognised as being fully vaccinated with authorised vaccines and certificates under England’s international travel rules, will still have to take a pre-departure test, a day 2 and day 8 PCR test and self-isolate for 10 days upon their return from a non-red list country under the new two-tiered travel programme. Test to Release will remain an option for unvaccinated passengers who wish to shorten their isolation period."

    So children (of vaccinated parents) returning to UK (who will not, of course, had time for their two jabs) will be caught by this?

    At the moment a non-vaccinated child returning to UK from green or Amber needs a pre-departure test and a Day 2 PCR only. This change means that this continues PLUS needs Day 8 test AND has to quarantine.

    I think I must have misunderstood?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671
    Jonathan said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, possibly, but has not Macron said on the record that he wants a middle course between the USA (a democracy) and China (a tyrannical dictatorship complete with concentration camps)?

    If you think for one moment about Boris has said on record, I hope we are all able to look beyond current leaders and remember long term interests. I am not sure we gain anything from embarrassing the French, beyond indulging in old skool cheap laughs.
    One is obliged to point out at this juncture that the French, and the rest of the EU leaders in attendance, didn't think twice about ambushing the British Government at its own G7 summit, and trying to subvert the whole thing into a pantomime about the Northern Ireland trade spat. Not much evidence of sacrificing the urge to humiliate for the benefit of the long-term interest there.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
    Thank goodness China is totes chilled out about advancing its overseas interests for the foreseeable.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946
    pigeon said:

    More anecdata concerning the disintegration of the NHS:

    People with cancer forced to go private

    In January this year, Steve Deeman in Nottinghamshire was looking at an eight-week delay to have the lesion on his forehead diagnosed. “It was suspicious looking and grew quite rapidly over the next few weeks,” said the 69-year-old retired teacher.

    He was referred to a local hospital dermatology department in early March and was given a consultation appointment for May. “I decided I couldn’t wait that long and sought private medical care a few days later,” he said.

    Deeman saw a specialist dermatologist who diagnosed the lesion as cancerous and it was removed the next day. His treatment so far has cost about £1,500 but further follow-ups have been recommended which could bring the total to £2,000. “I was fortunate in that I was able to afford treatment but there are a lot of people who wouldn’t be able to.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/18/i-couldnt-wait-britons-without-health-insurance-on-why-they-paid-to-go-private

    Three-year waiting lists to pull rotten teeth

    When Fabien needed to have a decayed tooth removed in May, his dentist told him that he would have to wait up to three years to have it done on the NHS. In disbelief, the 27-year-old from Edinburgh rang 50 dental practices but without any luck. He had no choice but to go private. Having lost his job during the pandemic, he was on universal credit and had to borrow the £600 from his family.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/18/private-hospitals-profit-from-nhs-waiting-lists-as-people-without-insurance-pay-out

    If you've the means and knowhow to trade in shares then private healthcare groups are probably a good bet. As the latter piece goes on to say, quoting the director of a health think tank,

    “There is a big risk that unless government provides adequate funding for the NHS, more and more people will be forced to pay privately, which in turn will undermine middle-class support for a tax-funded NHS.

    “It’s not likely that we will end up with a US-style insurance system. But a two-tier system, where the NHS is a residual service for those without the means to pay is a possibility – ultimately these are political choices.”

    Certainly there is likely to be a boom in the sector, both from the self pay private market and in terms of outsourcing of NHS work, which is a major source of income to private hospitals. That said the performance of Spire shares hasn't been great recently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/business/shares-spire-healthcare-drop-takeover-ramsay-fails-b946530.html
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,227

    If we are on masks again , I dont wear them and dont see many people that do either. At work it is a personal choice and I again dont (like most people) . If those who are posting that they are wearin them now in what is the light season for covid then you are bascially admitting you are going to wear them (and push for them to worn by others ) for eternity .That is a miserable existence for society and one I will not accept - hence why I dont wear a mask . Also if the Cabinet dont wear them (as that photo earlier in the week showed) why do you think they believe that it is effective ?

    Where it is personal choice, I'm of a similar view but where it remains a requirement (as part of the "Conditions of Carriage" on transport for example) I still do though an increasing number don't.

    If I were to go to someone's house and they asked me to wear a mask, I would.

    As for their "effectiveness", I think they have been effective and were so when generally worn - obviously less so when generally not.

    Has anyone any information on whether cases of this virus are growing? I believe Mrs Stodge and I have this - we have both tested negative for Covid.

    https://www.cdc.gov/rsv/index.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,054
    Mr. Jonathan, the PM's a fool and we'll be better off when he's replaced.

    Yet he's actually taking a better line than the far-more-acceptable Macron when it comes to China.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,397
    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They’ve extended the flu mandate to include more children and are putting pressure on firms to supply vaccines to their employees
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946
    https://twitter.com/dcfcofficial/status/1438948354474532871?s=19

    Derby County into administration. I don't think it will be the only football club to go this way.
  • Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    Shame it was done in a way that divided the democracies on the security council, Once the low rent frog bashing subsides that may be seen as an unnecessary error that ironically weakens us against the Chinese.
    The reality of the situation was that Australia needed nuclear powered subs and France did not offer that

    The strategic need for Australia and the Trans Pacific made the US the only viable partner and the UK and US have shared expertise hence AUKUS

    France has overacted
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    pigeon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jonathan, possibly, but has not Macron said on the record that he wants a middle course between the USA (a democracy) and China (a tyrannical dictatorship complete with concentration camps)?

    If you think for one moment about Boris has said on record, I hope we are all able to look beyond current leaders and remember long term interests. I am not sure we gain anything from embarrassing the French, beyond indulging in old skool cheap laughs.
    One is obliged to point out at this juncture that the French, and the rest of the EU leaders in attendance, didn't think twice about ambushing the British Government at its own G7 summit, and trying to subvert the whole thing into a pantomime about the Northern Ireland trade spat. Not much evidence of sacrificing the urge to humiliate for the benefit of the long-term interest there.
    Resorting to a playground “look miss they started it” is hardly constructive. Of course the French indulge in nonsense of their own. The point is, this sort of division only benefits our enemies. Everyone needs to grow up a bit IMO.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946

    Mr. Jonathan, the PM's a fool and we'll be better off when he's replaced.

    Yet he's actually taking a better line than the far-more-acceptable Macron when it comes to China.

    Experts warn exclusion from AUSUK pact could see New Zealand miss out on future catastrophic wars https://t.co/k9J1TBEVK0 https://t.co/mbTwiUS5BH

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,173
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Snubbing the French is a foolish mistake
    Rifts over submarine contracts and migrant patrols have soured relations with a nation that should be our closest ally
    Matthew Parris" (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snubbing-the-french-is-a-foolish-mistake-s27jpn0s5

    Like the tides another 'GB wrong' article from Derbyshire's quickest ex MP for remain.
    I have always been a big fan of Parris. Great journalist, genuinely thought out, doesn't just please the crowd, despite BDS he isn't a herd mentality, and he can write.

    Last week in the Speccie he said that he couldn't live without red wine but could live without books. Suddenly I realised I have no idea at all what makes him tick.

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671
    Stocky said:

    I'm reading the travel rule changes announced yesterday.

    It says:

    "Passengers who aren’t recognised as being fully vaccinated with authorised vaccines and certificates under England’s international travel rules, will still have to take a pre-departure test, a day 2 and day 8 PCR test and self-isolate for 10 days upon their return from a non-red list country under the new two-tiered travel programme. Test to Release will remain an option for unvaccinated passengers who wish to shorten their isolation period."

    So children (of vaccinated parents) returning to UK (who will not, of course, had time for their two jabs) will be caught by this?

    At the moment a non-vaccinated child returning to UK from green or Amber needs a pre-departure test and a Day 2 PCR only. This change means that this continues PLUS needs Day 8 test AND has to quarantine.

    I think I must have misunderstood?

    The problem is, they've published a summary of the forthcoming changes but haven't fully updated the relevant advice. So you're left to assume that none of this applies to the under 12s, but that 12-17 year olds need to be fully vaccinated - when in fact they might be exempt or subject to some form of grace period.

    In fact, the rules for 12-15 year olds will need, of necessity, to be a little different as I seem to recall that it has only been recommended that they receive a single dose at this stage. This could cause ructions in and of itself, if the countries to which they are travelling expect fully vaccinated travellers all to have been lanced twice.

    The best advice for people thinking of travelling abroad with teenagers may still be "don't bother," at least for now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,788

    ‘More than 200,000 EU citizens left the UK last year, driven away by Brexit and the deepest economic slump in three centuries’

    Anyone seen any antipodean squirrels?

    That's a lot lower than the initial guess-estimates, which was in the 500-700k range.
    And almost certainly still too high. With 6m with the rights to remain it is also around 3% of those that were here. But, whatever.
  • Foxy said:

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    The submarines are some decade or two off service. The more immediate effect is more US forces based in Australia. This is quite an interesting piece from Australia on what it all means:

    "Hugh White : what SM has done this week. He has tied Australia to a deal that undermines our sovereign capabilities,overspends on hardware we can barely be confident of operating,& drags us closer to front line of a war we may have no interest in fighting."

    https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2021/09/18/the-submarine-the-ridiculous/163188720012499?utm_source=tsp_website&utm_campaign=social_mobile_twitter&utm_medium=social_share
    I did wonder if the US or even the UK may allocate a nuclear sub to Australia to smooth the process of integration
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628

    Jonathan said:

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    Shame it was done in a way that divided the democracies on the security council, Once the low rent frog bashing subsides that may be seen as an unnecessary error that ironically weakens us against the Chinese.
    The reality of the situation was that Australia needed nuclear powered subs and France did not offer that

    The strategic need for Australia and the Trans Pacific made the US the only viable partner and the UK and US have shared expertise hence AUKUS

    France has overacted
    This could have been done in a way that the French were not embarrassed, which would have benefited us all if our goal is to present a united front to balance Chinese power. Cheap headlines trumped long term interests.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,397
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
    This useful video explains Australian Defence policy.

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18
    It’s harmful bullshit if that’s what you mean by “useful”.

    Western democracies have fundamental values - freedom of speech, of assembly, of religion - that our forefathers fought and bled to secure. We must stick up for those values and not kowtow to an authoritarian dictatorship for a couple of brass farthings
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,054
    Dr. Foxy, New Zealand is isolated and has been far chummier with the Communists than they might wish to be.

    As for Australia, the rising threat of China is something that must be accounted for. Sure, you can feed a crocodile, but appeasement does not work. Australia must be able to defend itself.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 671
    Foxy said:

    Mr. Jonathan, the PM's a fool and we'll be better off when he's replaced.

    Yet he's actually taking a better line than the far-more-acceptable Macron when it comes to China.

    Experts warn exclusion from AUSUK pact could see New Zealand miss out on future catastrophic wars https://t.co/k9J1TBEVK0 https://t.co/mbTwiUS5BH
    Yes, very funny. Ditto your earlier contribution re: Australia.

    Your alternative idea being, presumably, that China's neighbours should all accept that they are hopelessly outmatched, that any kind of military establishment is therefore a pointless waste of money, and they should therefore simply roll over?

    Abolishing the defence budget would, after all, leave vast amounts of money to spend on the dissemination of Xi Jinping Thought and to create statues and other monuments to His everlasting glory.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,920
    Morning all

    If you want to understand Whitehall, watch Yes Minister and The Thick of It.

    If you want to under Australian Defence policy, The Hollowmen is a useful primer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,946
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
    This useful video explains Australian Defence policy.

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18
    It’s harmful bullshit if that’s what you mean by “useful”.

    Western democracies have fundamental values - freedom of speech, of assembly, of religion - that our forefathers fought and bled to secure. We must stick up for those values and not kowtow to an authoritarian dictatorship for a couple of brass farthings
    No, it is from an Australian satirical comedy show.

    I still have a lot of Australian family, and several direct relatives buried in Australian military cemeteries, so please spare the sanctimony.

    Meanwhile we arm the salafists of KSA to the teeth, so spare us the bullshit on standing up for freedom of religion and human rights.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,789
    edited September 18
    pigeon said:

    Stocky said:

    I'm reading the travel rule changes announced yesterday.

    It says:

    "Passengers who aren’t recognised as being fully vaccinated with authorised vaccines and certificates under England’s international travel rules, will still have to take a pre-departure test, a day 2 and day 8 PCR test and self-isolate for 10 days upon their return from a non-red list country under the new two-tiered travel programme. Test to Release will remain an option for unvaccinated passengers who wish to shorten their isolation period."

    So children (of vaccinated parents) returning to UK (who will not, of course, had time for their two jabs) will be caught by this?

    At the moment a non-vaccinated child returning to UK from green or Amber needs a pre-departure test and a Day 2 PCR only. This change means that this continues PLUS needs Day 8 test AND has to quarantine.

    I think I must have misunderstood?

    The problem is, they've published a summary of the forthcoming changes but haven't fully updated the relevant advice. So you're left to assume that none of this applies to the under 12s, but that 12-17 year olds need to be fully vaccinated - when in fact they might be exempt or subject to some form of grace period.

    In fact, the rules for 12-15 year olds will need, of necessity, to be a little different as I seem to recall that it has only been recommended that they receive a single dose at this stage. This could cause ructions in and of itself, if the countries to which they are travelling expect fully vaccinated travellers all to have been lanced twice.

    The best advice for people thinking of travelling abroad with teenagers may still be "don't bother," at least for now.
    We've been abroad a few times with children.

    I think I've misunderstood something; the news is being heralded as a major loosening up and I can't find and comment supporting the paragraph above (which is from a gov press release!).

    Bookings going through the roof, esp Oct Half Term:

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-delighted-travel-firms-see-surge-in-bookings-as-traffic-light-system-scrapped-as-government-faces-calls-to-remove-testing-altogether-12410617
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,397

    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.

    I think you are wrong on the facts here. There was very good work done on therapeutics in the UK - I think it was called the REACT study - and among other improvements in care it lead to the use of Dexamethasone, which cut the fatality rate by one-third. You would expect that discovery would have save tens of thousands of lives during our Alpha wave.

    There was also the improvements in supplying oxygen that came out of the ventilator challenge.

    I can't find much to fault in the medical response. There is a question over whether challenge trials should be used to speed up the vaccine development process.
    IIRC there was one challenge trial done in the UK (don’t remember seeing any results).

    But it’s ethically questionable to run a challenge trial on a human subject. We were the only country that I remember being willing to do it
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,628
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It’s ironic and tragic that in a move designed to counter growing Chinese power we have divided the democracies on the security council and thereby weakened us relative to the Chinese.

    It’s a shame that they didn’t find a route in the Pacific that kept us united. Why couldn’t the Aussies have both types of submarines?

    Well, the Attack class order was for 12 submarines. Australia are having enough trouble keeping their existing six Collins-class subs crewed. Reducing the Attack-class order would have had hefty penalties. Then you have the problem of maintaining two very different types of sub, with very different kit and equipment.

    Also, NG and France's behaviour throughout this has not been that good IMO. It's not all Australia's fault.

    Then you finally get the issue that the Attack-class didn't really meet their needs in the first place.

    This video goes into a little (ahem) more detail:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vnciriE_Q
    Are you saying that a deal couldn’t be done? I don’t buy it. It’s not as if military procurement is remotely efficient anywhere else.
    It's so staggeringly expensive and complex to operate an SSN that it's probably beyond the capability of the RAN to operate one type never mind two.

    Also, bear in mind that no deal has been done for anything the moment. They are now off on a multi year exercise to define requirements (again).
    This useful video explains Australian Defence policy.

    https://youtu.be/MTCqXlDjx18
    It’s harmful bullshit if that’s what you mean by “useful”.

    Western democracies have fundamental values - freedom of speech, of assembly, of religion - that our forefathers fought and bled to secure. We must stick up for those values and not kowtow to an authoritarian dictatorship for a couple of brass farthings
    Hmmm. You must be very upset when HMG pursues brass farthings all over the Middle East.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,788

    On another note:

    Covid has shown up quite how sparse our weapons against disease are. The vaccines were later then we needed, even fat a brilliantly accelerated development. Therapeutic developments have been very disappointing.

    I would like to see a Manhattan Project on therapeutics. The world needs to throw billions into development of drugs and strategies that will help keep people out of hospital from even 'normal' illnesses such as flu.

    An issue is that vaccines have been seen to work and, in a couple of cases, vastly profitable. The sector will throw lots of money into vaccines. But vaccines are inevitable delayed; they need to be developed for each individual illness. Therapeutic drugs and techniques can help with many different illnesses that attack in similar ways.

    Whilst I agree that your analysis was correct in 2019, where we in the west at least had grown very complacent (the east were better prepared, hence their better early responses to this) I think that we have had our Manhattan project already. We know vastly more about viruses, epidemiology and what works than we ever have. We have had the incredible response of big Pharma in producing a series of successful vaccines in incredibly short time.

    Of those by far the most remarkable to me as a layman remains the Novavax vaccine developed by computer modelling of the virus without even bothering to work on the virus itself. The implications of this sort of capability in devising new medicines are just mind blowing both in terms of speed of development and cost. We absolutely need to keep this going but I have no doubt that that sort of tech is going to change all pharma for ever. It is ground breaking. I confidently predict that within the next 30 years more lives will be saved by this than have been lost to Covid.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,731

    Foxy said:

    Good morning

    I do not expect a further lockdown unless the virus escapes the vaccines

    Life seems to be back to near normal and of course the booster jabs are on their way

    On the French strop has any EU country come out in support of them

    I have heard it said that in any security crisis the US would be their first call for help

    It is unfortunate that France has fallen out with AUKUS but ultimately this is not about France or Europe, but the defence of the Trans Pacific and just as EU countries would if under threat, Australia has turned to the US

    The submarines are some decade or two off service. The more immediate effect is more US forces based in Australia. This is quite an interesting piece from Australia on what it all means:

    "Hugh White : what SM has done this week. He has tied Australia to a deal that undermines our sovereign capabilities,overspends on hardware we can barely be confident of operating,& drags us closer to front line of a war we may have no interest in fighting."

    https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2021/09/18/the-submarine-the-ridiculous/163188720012499?utm_source=tsp_website&utm_campaign=social_mobile_twitter&utm_medium=social_share
    I did wonder if the US or even the UK may allocate a nuclear sub to Australia to smooth the process of integration
    It's not like borrowing a Ford Focus to nip to Aldi. Insurmountable (for the US) security concerns aside; how would they command, crew and maintain it?

    If they want boats before 2035 the only option is to buy the two Astutes under construction at Barrow. The tories, who never saw a defence cut they didn't like, would love this but it might not be politically sustainable in Australia - I don't know.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,993
    pigeon said:

    jonny83 said:

    ydoethur said:

    The children at my school are being offered flu vaccines in school this year. Don’t remember this happening before.

    Not sure whether it’s a school initiative or a government one. Would be a rare moment of sense if the latter as it would definitely help reduce flu transmission and therefore pressure on the NHS, as well as hopefully reducing school absence.

    They are very worried about Flu this year so a lot more age groups are being offered it. A record 30 million plus are expected to be offered a Flu jab this year which trounces the 19 million last year.
    Which is well-intentioned, but ultimately futile if there's not enough flu vaccine to go around. When I booked my private appointment with the local Boots back on August 26th, the earliest appointment I could get was October 2nd. A colleague at work who's on the shielding list (and ought therefore to be at or near the top of the priority order) hasn't been contacted by the GP about hers yet, and suspects that they are struggling to source doses.

    I mean, I know it's still only mid-September and the campaign probably hasn't started to ramp up properly yet, but it does make you wonder.
    I had my flu jab a week ago at the surgery.
This discussion has been closed.