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In the Batley betting the Tories are not as strong a favourite as they were at C&A – politicalbettin

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited June 2021 in General
imageIn the Batley betting the Tories are not as strong a favourite as they were at C&A – politicalbetting.com

Judging by the reports the Batley by-election campaign has become an increasingly nasty affair with the campaign of the Labour candidate, sister of murdered MP Jo Cox, and facing what could be seen as physical intimidation. Who has been behind this we do not know but my guess is that it might just help her.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Test
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    On topic - GG has stolen enough votes that the Tories could win.

    Whether they do or not depends on who actually turns out and votes on the day.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880
    I think I'm in the ABGG party for this by-election.

    Anyone But George Galloway
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,452
    A win for the Tories in B&S might well reassure them enough that the C&A loss will be swiftly forgotten and no lessons learned. The emphasis on the mythical "red wall" will increase, and the US-style pivot between the parties will continue.

    The trouble for Labour is that none of this helps them. A B&S defeat will trigger yet more infighting and I suspect a sense of despair. I do think it makes more sense for them to do the bloodletting now than in the run up to the next general election, but I worry they will draw the wrong lessons.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    The question is: how many votes does GG have to get to screw Labour, give the GE19 majority was 7 % of the total vote.

    My guess is if GG gets 7 % of the vote, then Labour will find it very, very hard to win. It is not a big threshold.

    As regards the candidate Kim Leadbeater, she reminds me a lot of SKS.

    Most people on pb.com predicted SKS would do much better than he has. I remember OGH saying "forensic" Starmer would destroy Boris.

    I suspect Kim appeals to a very similar demographic as SKS.

    Whether that demographic is decisive in B&S, I'm not sure.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    TimS said:

    A win for the Tories in B&S might well reassure them enough that the C&A loss will be swiftly forgotten and no lessons learned. The emphasis on the mythical "red wall" will increase, and the US-style pivot between the parties will continue.

    The trouble for Labour is that none of this helps them. A B&S defeat will trigger yet more infighting and I suspect a sense of despair. I do think it makes more sense for them to do the bloodletting now than in the run up to the next general election, but I worry they will draw the wrong lessons.

    Do the Tories need to learn anything from C&A? The Lib Dems went for all NIMBY and won. I don't agree with HS2 (and I don't know much about the planning laws stuff, to be honest), but I think the Tories shouldn't worry about losing a by-election like C&A. Much better to play the long game.
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,731
    eek said:

    On topic - GG has stolen enough votes that the Tories could win.

    Whether they do or not depends on who actually turns out and votes on the day.

    Only little people vote on the day. The postals are already in.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2021
    Rather a good point.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1409780682117746688

    Starmer should get onto this, to maintain the "sleaze" mood music.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,494
    edited June 2021
    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree with Politico. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
  • Options
    GnudGnud Posts: 298
    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Galloway will undoubtedly take Labour votes.

    The key to who wins could well be then whether For Britain, UKIP and the English Democrats take enough of the hard right 2019 Heavy Woollen Leaver vote that might otherwise have gone Tory to enable Labour to scrape home
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited June 2021
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree with Politico. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    That article makes clear there are 28 mostly Remain voting and graduate and professional heavy seats the Tories hold the LDs could win which are demographically like Chesham and Amersham, almost entirely in the Home Counties and where they were second in 2019 and are 20% or less behind the Tories.

    Beyond that however 75% of the remaining 60 seats where the LDs were second in 2019 voted Leave
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,494
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    It was just over 6 years ago, not 7 that her sister was murdered and Kim Ledbetter was to begin with the perfect candidate for here as she is everything that Labour's Hartlepool candidate wasn't.

    GG putting himself into the battle has however created a whole different set of problems that no one was expecting.
  • Options
    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree with Politico. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    That article makes clear there are 28 mostly Remain voting and graduate and professional heavy seats the Tories hold the LDs could win which are demographically like Chesham and Amersham, almost entirely in the Home Counties and where they were second in 2019 and are 20% or less behind the Tories.

    Beyond that however 75% of the remaining 60 seats where the LDs were second in 2019 voted Leave
    Surely what matters more is Boris plan to wreck the area with infrastructure projects, or crap housing estates to home all the foreigners his post Brexit trade deals will suck in globally, also how terrified, or not, voters are of a Labour PM.
  • Options
    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    On topic I sort of agree Mike, betting markets are not trying to predict winner merely look to make money, place money at value and cover losses. But where they are a good indication is at this stage so many media outlets, from New Statesman, Daily Newspapers and TV News have been there and reported back that Labour are in deep trouble in a seat they are trying to hold, so bets are placed tapping into this knowledgeable opinion. Each bi election is unique, this one can’t be bigged up as unknown result like the last one. The smart betting is Labour have lost this and probably by more than expected like the election which put the heart into Hartlepool.

    The only remaining point of interest from this sorry election campaign is more evidence of the Americanisation of British politics. Groups campaigning as supporter of a campaign getting away with what actual campaigns cannot. Much like how Gove disagreed with some adverts in 2016 whilst at the same time benefitting from how effective they were.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,359
    edited June 2021
    Rather good graphic in the Telegraph
    image

    The point about the above is that - generalising from my own family's experience - the vast majority of the gap between the blue line and the red line will be made up of those who actually have negative PCR tests but are still faced with 10 days' house arrest.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    Sienna Rogers (editor of Labour List) is always worth listening to as a frank friend of Labour - here's her Batley and Spen report, with some new sidelights, basically repeating the message that Labour probably won't win but just about might. Leadbeater's appeal in the Tory/LibDem area is something I've not seen discussed before, but I did encounter a couple of Tory-Labour switchers and the 3 LibDems who were all switching exclusively on personal grounds (i.e. voting for Kim).

    https://labourlist.org/2021/06/will-kim-leadbeaters-campaign-allow-labour-to-hold-onto-batley-and-spen/

    Betfair's prices have Labour moving in (as I write) to 4.8 and the Tories out to 1.29, but still a very thin market. The Lab-Galloway Ladbrokes market is back out to 1/7.
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    Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 178
    Cookie said:

    Rather good graphic in the Telegraph
    image

    The point about the above is that - generalising from my own family's experience - the vast majority of the gap between the blue line and the red line will be made up of those who actually have negative PCR tests but are still faced with 10 days' house arrest.

    How many teenagers are suddenly getting nasty coughs out of nowhere? "Oh no I better self isolate"
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Not long now until England are out the Euros....
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    NEW: Los Angeles County "strongly recommends" everyone, including those who are fully vaccinated, to wear masks indoors due to spread of Delta variant https://t.co/oQkEwdBof2
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
    Except Boris is the best Tory votewinner since Thatcher (pre poll tax).

    When Boris goes I doubt any alternative Tory leader will have as much appeal, especially to the white working class in the Red Wall and if Burnham replaces Starmer as Labour leader by then
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nunu3 said:

    Cookie said:

    Rather good graphic in the Telegraph
    image

    The point about the above is that - generalising from my own family's experience - the vast majority of the gap between the blue line and the red line will be made up of those who actually have negative PCR tests but are still faced with 10 days' house arrest.

    How many teenagers are suddenly getting nasty coughs out of nowhere? "Oh no I better self isolate"
    Not sure if it's related or not but my daughter has suddenly decided to fake cough while we're getting her ready for school. She's five.

    It doesn't help every time her sister admonishes her "don't cough people will think you have coronavirus" which of course only eggs her on even more.

    In five year-olds it's cute. For teenagers, yes I'm sure there's those who think they can get away with it.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    eek said:

    On topic - GG has stolen enough votes that the Tories could win.

    Whether they do or not depends on who actually turns out and votes on the day.

    Only little people vote on the day. The postals are already in.
    GG currently ahead then on votes cast?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,916
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    In cheerier news, I am now an uncle for the first time. As an only child, this was not a status I ever really anticipated, but thanks to the magic of sisters-in-law I now have a niece (born just after 10.30 this morning, name yet unconfirmed, but 8lb 13oz and healthy and looking like a right bloody bruiser, to be honest).

    Best wishes Uncle Cookie! You do realise you are now a source of both cash and advice? The cash will be accepted, the advice, probably, ignored!
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,354
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
    Except Boris is the best Tory votewinner since Thatcher (pre poll tax).

    When Boris goes I doubt any alternative Tory leader will have as much appeal, especially to the white working class in the Red Wall and if Burnham replaces Starmer as Labour leader by then
    Any post-Boris leader will take the party in a specific direction, and is unlikely to have the same teflon quality as the incumbent. That will create openings of some sort for their opponents.

    Nobody has Boris's chutzpah, and my hunch is that a lot of Boris's success is powered by that chutzpah.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,359
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree with Politico. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    That article makes clear there are 28 mostly Remain voting and graduate and professional heavy seats the Tories hold the LDs could win which are demographically like Chesham and Amersham, almost entirely in the Home Counties and where they were second in 2019 and are 20% or less behind the Tories.

    Beyond that however 75% of the remaining 60 seats where the LDs were second in 2019 voted Leave
    Surely what matters more is Boris plan to wreck the area with infrastructure projects, or crap housing estates to home all the foreigners his post Brexit trade deals will suck in globally, also how terrified, or not, voters are of a Labour PM.
    The latter point (how terrified, or not, voters are of a Labour PM) is in my view almost 100% correlated with the number of Conservative votes in a GE. (Which does not exactly translate into what the Con majority is, of course, but for Con is a good starting point).
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    Fpt

    On face masks (I believe there was a PBer who recommended turning old pants into masks?).


  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    It was just over 6 years ago, not 7 that her sister was murdered and Kim Ledbetter was to begin with the perfect candidate for here as she is everything that Labour's Hartlepool candidate wasn't.

    GG putting himself into the battle has however created a whole different set of problems that no one was expecting.
    I think Leadbeater would have won without GG. Maybe she still will squeak it, who knows?

    But, surely Labour were asleep at the wheel if they did not think GG would put himself into the battle.

    Especially after the flare-up in Israel/Palestine barely a month ago.

    The whole by-election was unnecessary anyhow. SKS should have told Brabin, no. There are plenty of other Labour women who could have stood for the mayoralty. Brabin is nothing special.

    It all adds to the impression that SKS has no political 'street knowledge'.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
    For which voters?

    Boris has approval ratings that Cameron could only dream of at this stage of the 2010-15 Parliament.

    The thing with Boris is that he really winds up some people a lot but overall he's actually popular.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,072
    On the anti-Whitty protestors, the thing that most concerns me is that the charge of treason is now being thrown around at every turn.

    This is another Brexit benefit, of course, encouraged by the two post-referendum governments, to brand any criticism of the implementation of Brexit as treason. This poison, now unleashed, spreads further through our political discourse.

    Thanks for that.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,697
    Cookie said:

    Rather good graphic in the Telegraph
    image

    The point about the above is that - generalising from my own family's experience - the vast majority of the gap between the blue line and the red line will be made up of those who actually have negative PCR tests but are still faced with 10 days' house arrest.

    I don't know what its like round your way, but here in Merseyside I understand that last week there were 1,700 children on the Wirral self-isolating because of positive cases in their schools.
    Where I am in Crosby, my daughter had to spend 10 days in two weeks ago after a positive in her class, and we then spent a nervy weekend when a parent tested positive on the Saturday and sent her daughter for a PCR. It came back negative on Sunday night but my wife's phone was pinging every ten minutes over the weekend as all the WhatsApp mum's were messaging every ten minutes with, "Has [daughters'] result come back yet?" as they knew what it meant if it was positive.

    I'm also told that there are a number of other classes and years out in Crosby.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,916

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
    For which voters?

    Boris has approval ratings that Cameron could only dream of at this stage of the 2010-15 Parliament.

    The thing with Boris is that he really winds up some people a lot but overall he's actually popular.
    I think we've noted, and agreed, before that he's Marmite, while some people like him a lot, and chortle over him..... what a lad, eh, or something ...... if or when the gloss wears off he could well be a washed out figure on the sidelines.
    Not even wanted for his 'writing ability'.
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,697
    I don't know why everyone is so negative about this evening's football.
    I mean, the result could be any of the normal three options!

    England can lose in normal time.
    England can lose after extra time.
    Or England can lose on penalties.

    That covers all bases doesn't it?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,215

    I don't know why everyone is so negative about this evening's football.
    I mean, the result could be any of the normal three options!

    England can lose in normal time.
    England can lose after extra time.
    Or England can lose on penalties.

    That covers all bases doesn't it?

    Yes, the people talking about penalties are actually the optimists.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    HYUFD said:

    Galloway will undoubtedly take Labour votes.

    The key to who wins could well be then whether For Britain, UKIP and the English Democrats take enough of the hard right 2019 Heavy Woollen Leaver vote that might otherwise have gone Tory to enable Labour to scrape home

    I have seen Heavy Woollen types at Galloway events and in his campaign videos!
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Offtopic already but An interesting read

    https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-conservative-party-uk-manifesto-promises/

    Basically the Tory party covers too much ground which means if Boris and Co focus on the North they are going to upset the South.

    Not that it actually makes any difference as I suspect Boris has picked the correct ground to find the centre and can afford to lose a few Southern seats such as Amersham to the Lib Dems / Labour.

    Interesting but I don't agree. all politics is relative not absolute. To win an election would you rather appeal to a 45% spectrum of support from the middling sort, including the non urban WWC, from South Holland to Hartlepool or rely on a mixture of Toynbees, academic seats, woke professionals, BAME seats, the payroll vote, the too posh to vote Tory vote, and the big city white poor in Liverpool.

    And this is worth a look on how the LD revival won't help much either.

    https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/chesham-and-amersham-byelection/

    Surely the key element to winning a majority is that 65% of constituencies voted Leave, and the LotO is the person who tried his damnedest to overturn the referendum result, whilst the PM is the one who finally got it implemented
    Yes. This also is true.

    The uphill for Labour is immense. They have of course this going for them: all politics is relative; when the Tories/Boris run out of road there is nowhere else to go but Labour.

    An issue Labour need to sort fairly clearly after this horrible byelection which I hope they win is: do they seek the Islamic vote on the basis of sympathy, however faint, with Islamism or do they seek it because they are the secular and democratic party which is the right choice for an Islamic person for the same reason it might be the right choice for a Methodist, humanist etc.

    The issue there is that when Boris goes the replacement is likely to be a far more presentable Conservative candidate for many voters.
    For which voters?

    Boris has approval ratings that Cameron could only dream of at this stage of the 2010-15 Parliament.

    The thing with Boris is that he really winds up some people a lot but overall he's actually popular.
    I think we've noted, and agreed, before that he's Marmite, while some people like him a lot, and chortle over him..... what a lad, eh, or something ...... if or when the gloss wears off he could well be a washed out figure on the sidelines.
    Not even wanted for his 'writing ability'.
    He'll follow in his father's footsteps and appear on I'm A Celebrity I expect.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Scottish Government modellers warn Covid cases could hit 100,000 a week by mid-July

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1409792982203703300?s=20
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    That well known racist anti-immigrant leader Angela Merkel also has a similar policy...in fact they increased the payouts a few years ago.

    The country has long offered migrants and asylum seekers financial incentives to leave its shores, and until 28 February 2018 it's prepared to pay out extra.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42235232
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,800
    I'll stick with my 'Labour are done for' position in B&S I've drifted towards in the last fortnight. But, if Labour can pull it off, it will feel like a Gain. Nice to hear there is some Leadbeater driven possibility of Tory -> Lab switching in the not insubstantial villagier bits of the constituency we rarely hear about, but I think the top value I can put on that kind of effect isn't quite enough now.

    Whatever the fall out of all this and wherever Labour and Starmer end up, the putative possibility of the next two fights being in Tory held marginals north of Stoke under possibly inauspicious local and less vaccine honeymoon national circumstances is something to look forward to. Shots to nothing with a potential to change the narrative for whichever Labour party takes the field.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    tlg86 said:

    TimS said:

    A win for the Tories in B&S might well reassure them enough that the C&A loss will be swiftly forgotten and no lessons learned. The emphasis on the mythical "red wall" will increase, and the US-style pivot between the parties will continue.

    The trouble for Labour is that none of this helps them. A B&S defeat will trigger yet more infighting and I suspect a sense of despair. I do think it makes more sense for them to do the bloodletting now than in the run up to the next general election, but I worry they will draw the wrong lessons.

    Do the Tories need to learn anything from C&A? The Lib Dems went for all NIMBY and won. I don't agree with HS2 (and I don't know much about the planning laws stuff, to be honest), but I think the Tories shouldn't worry about losing a by-election like C&A. Much better to play the long game.
    That's probable, and they shouldn't overreact to such a loss as governments do lose such things (albeit this was a pretty big majority to lose even so) but that doesn't mean they shouldn't react.

    It's worth keeping an eye on - as others have noted they can afford to lose a few southern seats, particularly if they make more progress in the north, but they shouldn't be complacent, and the impression only the red wall matters could be trouble.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Scottish Government modellers warn Covid cases could hit 100,000 a week by mid-July

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1409792982203703300?s=20

    Here we go again....we can't possibly open up, too many cases.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    I wonder which party @RochdalePioneers was supporting in 2006 when it "directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies"?
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Public opinion towards...

    Boris Johnson
    Positive: 41.5%
    Negative: 39.5%
    NET: +2.0

    Keir Starmer
    Positive: 26.6%
    Negative: 36.9%
    NET: -9.7

    via @BritainElects poll tracking


    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1409822264103636993?s=20
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570

    Scottish Government modellers warn Covid cases could hit 100,000 a week by mid-July

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1409792982203703300?s=20

    Here we go again....we can't possibly open up, too many cases.
    But can the UK treasury continue subsidising us.....
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    edited June 2021

    Rather a good point.

    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1409780682117746688

    Starmer should get onto this, to maintain the "sleaze" mood music.

    Surely he already has? Cabinet Ministers, indeed any Minister, are not permitted to have outside appointments.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Public opinion towards...

    Boris Johnson
    Positive: 41.5%
    Negative: 39.5%
    NET: +2.0

    Keir Starmer
    Positive: 26.6%
    Negative: 36.9%
    NET: -9.7

    via @BritainElects poll tracking


    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1409822264103636993?s=20

    The long term trend chart in that tweet is more interesting than the actual numbers. Boris +ve's have been steadily going up since last October, the negative down, before levelling off. Starmer the positives down down down, the negatives UPPPPPPPPPPP.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    Scottish Government modellers warn Covid cases could hit 100,000 a week by mid-July

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1409792982203703300?s=20

    As I said on the previous thread what we really, really need is for these muppets to put up some of their own money in bets. If they were required to do so we would not read such nonsense.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited June 2021

    On the anti-Whitty protestors, the thing that most concerns me is that the charge of treason is now being thrown around at every turn.

    This is another Brexit benefit, of course, encouraged by the two post-referendum governments, to brand any criticism of the implementation of Brexit as treason. This poison, now unleashed, spreads further through our political discourse.

    Thanks for that.

    The "Surrender Bill" accusation was Johnson's most blatantly Trumpite period, under Cummings' rather than Carrie's tutelage, and some of the damage and division from that time will take a long time to heal.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Roughly between 1/10th and 1/20th of the cost of a legal aid funded judicial review. Excellent value.
  • Options
    alednamalednam Posts: 185
    I too would be surprised if Galloway's vote share exceeded 5%. But I wouldn't be surprised if he succeeded in diminishing Labour's Vote Share by more than 5%. Not that this will be measured. But the thuggish types Galloway assembles target Labour -- by misrepresenting Labour's policies and by jeering at Kim Leadbeater.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Source please. I'm calling BS.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
    Perhaps its a Tory policy as it was introduced by the government in January 2021. They have taken a scheme to remove illegal migrants with no right to be here and turned it into one where we pay our own workforce to return to their EU countries of origin.

    If as you claim that existed in 2006 then you must have taken a break from writing the H&S Manual to rewrite history. Again. As I said if Tories feel good about paying people who legally live work and pay taxes here to fuck off back where they came from the Good For You.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    The men's Twenty20 World Cup has been moved from India to the United Arab Emirates and Oman because of the coronavirus pandemic.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,494

    Sienna Rogers (editor of Labour List) is always worth listening to as a frank friend of Labour - here's her Batley and Spen report, with some new sidelights, basically repeating the message that Labour probably won't win but just about might. Leadbeater's appeal in the Tory/LibDem area is something I've not seen discussed before, but I did encounter a couple of Tory-Labour switchers and the 3 LibDems who were all switching exclusively on personal grounds (i.e. voting for Kim).

    https://labourlist.org/2021/06/will-kim-leadbeaters-campaign-allow-labour-to-hold-onto-batley-and-spen/

    Betfair's prices have Labour moving in (as I write) to 4.8 and the Tories out to 1.29, but still a very thin market. The Lab-Galloway Ladbrokes market is back out to 1/7.

    The article pulls its punches markedly on the subject of where threats of violence, physical assaults, and hostility to LGBT ('a Birmingham activist') is coming from.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    Paging @Charles, radical socialism alert...

    Biden Wants To Dismantle Two Weapons The Richest 0.1% Use To Avoid Taxes
    https://www.fa-mag.com/news/biden-wants-to-dismantle-two-weapons-the-richest-0-1--use-to-avoid-taxes-62849.html
    ...Biden’s so-called “Green Book,” the Treasury document laying out these details, specifically takes aim at dynasty trusts—vehicles that are able to exist for generations without incurring gift, estate, or generation-skipping transfer taxes. The proposal would force trusts to pay capital gains tax on appreciated assets every 90 years, but it’s drafted in a way that would impose taxes as early as Dec. 31, 2030.

    The change would cause planners to think twice about the strategy, said James F. Hogan, a managing director at Andersen Tax LLC who previously worked at the Internal Revenue Service. “Do you really want to do a dynasty trust when you know you’re going to have an income tax anyways?”

    Biden’s plans to make heirs pay more, equalize rates between investors and workers, and boost taxes on corporations and the wealthy by raising rates are part of a global revival of initiatives to target the rich—a movement that has gained momentum since Covid-19 blew massive fiscal holes in government budgets around the world. From Buenos Aires to Stockholm to Washington, authorities have proposed or implemented new taxes on capital gains, inheritances, and wealth to raise money for social services and infrastructure programs.

    ‘Big Blow’
    Biden’s proposed plan would also charge a capital gains tax when assets are transferred into, or distributed from, certain kinds of trusts. A Treasury official said that aspect of the plan specifically targets tools like the intentionally defective grantor trust—a common, if complicated, technique that can allow the wealthy to move money out of their taxable estates to benefit heirs.

    “That’s a big blow to take that out of our arsenal,” said Ronald D. Aucutt, senior fiduciary counsel at Bessemer Trust....
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
    Perhaps its a Tory policy as it was introduced by the government in January 2021. They have taken a scheme to remove illegal migrants with no right to be here and turned it into one where we pay our own workforce to return to their EU countries of origin.

    If as you claim that existed in 2006 then you must have taken a break from writing the H&S Manual to rewrite history. Again. As I said if Tories feel good about paying people who legally live work and pay taxes here to fuck off back where they came from the Good For You.

    Source please because the Government website says you're lying.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    You keep saying this lie without any source.

    Anyone who arrived without a visa after 1/1/2021 did so illegally so was already eligible if they met the other criteria.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. NFL actually have "big data" bowl competitions, where they release a tiny snapshot of the masses of data they have for anybody to try their hand. Football is actually still a laggard.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
    Perhaps its a Tory policy as it was introduced by the government in January 2021. They have taken a scheme to remove illegal migrants with no right to be here and turned it into one where we pay our own workforce to return to their EU countries of origin.

    If as you claim that existed in 2006 then you must have taken a break from writing the H&S Manual to rewrite history. Again. As I said if Tories feel good about paying people who legally live work and pay taxes here to fuck off back where they came from the Good For You.

    Source please because the Government website says you're lying.
    My source is the government you spanner. "Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home"". You and eek keep going on about the EU, I didn't mention it until you two started saying EU people are excluded.

    Scheme is here: https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    Lots of advice on how to be paid money to go home as a forriner. And does it apply to resident EU workers who don't hit the deadline on Wednesday? Yes: "A Home Office spokesperson said: “Some people may choose not to obtain status under EUSS and may not wish to remain in the UK after the deadline. That is why we have written to stakeholders to inform them that EEA nationals who wish to leave the UK may now be eligible for support to help them do so under the voluntary returns scheme.”" (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/26/eu-citizens-offered-financial-incentives-to-leave-uk)
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    I suspect behind the scenes the likes of LFC have plenty of data analytics.

    Even if Match of the Day just says "he made a header".
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,359
    edited June 2021

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    Baseball and cricket strike me as a lot more quantifiable than football. In fact, I can think of few sports which are less obviously quantifiable than football. So you completed a pass - how godo a pass was it? So you made a shot on target - did it cause the goalie any difficulty? And so forth.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    I have no idea why they haven't registered. Probably the same reason why various Brits haven't registered in Spain. Either way we're still extending the Assisted Returns scheme to pay them to go home...
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    You keep saying this lie without any source.

    Anyone who arrived without a visa after 1/1/2021 did so illegally so was already eligible if they met the other criteria.
    I do love your absolutism Phillip! Like HYUFD the world is black and white and you are always always always right.

    An inspiration for the rest of us.
  • Options
    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    On the anti-Whitty protestors, the thing that most concerns me is that the charge of treason is now being thrown around at every turn.

    This is another Brexit benefit, of course, encouraged by the two post-referendum governments, to brand any criticism of the implementation of Brexit as treason. This poison, now unleashed, spreads further through our political discourse.

    Thanks for that.

    Surely the point about the what poor Chris Whitty had to endure is the public are losing faith in and respect for this government in many of its manifestations. Post Hancock, that is hardly surprising.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    Yes - I want the country to be far more open than most do I suspect, I'm inclined to be overgenerous on any such rules and not like restrictions or limits, or even just policing the rules we have a bit harshly.

    But I just cannot see how it is the case that the UK's policies in this regard are apparently egregiously bad and a national shame compared to others, which is the specific allegation being made.

    It's a bit too close to when people are so intent on criticising bad rules around immigation/asylum that they give the impression (sometimes deliberate sometimes not) that any rules on them are unacceptable and gammony.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2021

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    I have no idea why they haven't registered. Probably the same reason why various Brits haven't registered in Spain. Either way we're still extending the Assisted Returns scheme to pay them to go home...
    We're not extending it.

    If they're here illegally and meet the eligibility criteria they're eligible. Always was the case since Blair introduced it.

    What's new is that anyone who arrived after 1/1/21 or who doesn't register to stay is here illegally. But shouldn't that automatically mean this scheme applies? 🤔
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. NFL actually have "big data" bowl competitions, where they release a tiny snapshot of the masses of data they have for anybody to try their hand. Football is actually still a laggard.
    That's why I've never watched Moneyball.

    Well, one reason.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    I suspect behind the scenes the likes of LFC have plenty of data analytics.

    Even if Match of the Day just says "he made a header".
    They do, and StatsBomb and alike are producing more raw data. But there is a problem with football at the moment. Each team has detailed tracking of their own players via GPS, they don't have the same info on the opposition. Thus, they use the likes of Statsbomb to provide them with snapshot estimates (which are pretty good), but it only gives them what they call "event data" (x made a pass at y time to z, here are the estimated position of players at that time), which they then have to extrapolate information from.

    NBA has every player position in 3d at I believe 30fps and had it for nearly 10 years now. And this data is open to every team. I believe NFL allows every team to have the GPS data of all other teams. Same with baseball, each pitch tracked exactly from hand to glove, every player position, etc etc etc. So the level of analytics and modelling they have been able to develop is significantly greater.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    Baseball and cricket strike me as a lot more quantifiable than football. In fact, I can think of few sports which are less obviously quantifiable than football. So you completed a pass - how godo a pass was it? So you made a shot on target - did it cause the goalie any difficulty? And so forth.
    I tend to agree. I heard the stats guy from Arsenal on the radio a few years ago explaining why Mesut Ozil was in fact a brilliant footballer. All of the stats were output (passing etc.) rather than things like holding up the ball, turning a defender, etc.

    As ever it's a case of identifying the really meaningful statistics. The key to success, in my opinion, is getting a good blend of players that complement each other, with central midfield the most important position to get right. As good as Vardy and Mahrez were for Leicester in 2015-16, Kante was the key player that season.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,359

    Cookie said:

    Rather good graphic in the Telegraph
    image

    The point about the above is that - generalising from my own family's experience - the vast majority of the gap between the blue line and the red line will be made up of those who actually have negative PCR tests but are still faced with 10 days' house arrest.

    I don't know what its like round your way, but here in Merseyside I understand that last week there were 1,700 children on the Wirral self-isolating because of positive cases in their schools.
    Where I am in Crosby, my daughter had to spend 10 days in two weeks ago after a positive in her class, and we then spent a nervy weekend when a parent tested positive on the Saturday and sent her daughter for a PCR. It came back negative on Sunday night but my wife's phone was pinging every ten minutes over the weekend as all the WhatsApp mum's were messaging every ten minutes with, "Has [daughters'] result come back yet?" as they knew what it meant if it was positive.

    I'm also told that there are a number of other classes and years out in Crosby.
    Exactly the same in Trafford.
    I think people are happy to do their bit to limit the spread, although with most people vaccinated now I don't think people are as bothered as they once were. But people are getting really hacked off at the amount of childhood their children are having to miss even after a negative PCR test.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    I would not be buying real estate in Miami.
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/29/miami-condo-collapse-questions-climate-change

    The combination of rising sea levels, limestone geography, and utter lack of high ground are going to make life very difficult indeed sometime in the next few decades.
    Whether any of that has anything to do with the recent building collapse is for now completely unproven, of course.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    I have no idea why they haven't registered. Probably the same reason why various Brits haven't registered in Spain. Either way we're still extending the Assisted Returns scheme to pay them to go home...
    We're not extending it.

    If they're here illegally and meet the eligibility criteria they're eligible. Always was the case since Blair introduced it.

    What's new is that anyone who arrived after 1/1/21 or who doesn't register to stay is here illegally. But shouldn't that automatically mean this scheme applies? 🤔
    Final word because I have stuff to do. You say "we're not extending it." Home Office says they have extended it. As you are absolutely right as always, the Home Office must be wrong about what the Home Office is doing.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    edited June 2021

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
    Perhaps its a Tory policy as it was introduced by the government in January 2021. They have taken a scheme to remove illegal migrants with no right to be here and turned it into one where we pay our own workforce to return to their EU countries of origin.

    If as you claim that existed in 2006 then you must have taken a break from writing the H&S Manual to rewrite history. Again. As I said if Tories feel good about paying people who legally live work and pay taxes here to fuck off back where they came from the Good For You.

    Source please because the Government website says you're lying.
    My source is the government you spanner. "Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home"". You and eek keep going on about the EU, I didn't mention it until you two started saying EU people are excluded.

    Scheme is here: https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    Lots of advice on how to be paid money to go home as a forriner. And does it apply to resident EU workers who don't hit the deadline on Wednesday? Yes: "A Home Office spokesperson said: “Some people may choose not to obtain status under EUSS and may not wish to remain in the UK after the deadline. That is why we have written to stakeholders to inform them that EEA nationals who wish to leave the UK may now be eligible for support to help them do so under the voluntary returns scheme.”" (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/26/eu-citizens-offered-financial-incentives-to-leave-uk)
    And so was mine - my entire point was that this scheme has existed since 2006 (as I evidenced earlier) and you then brought up the EU to argue that it was new.

    My sole point is that this scheme is 15 years old and was created by a Labour (albeit Blairite) Government while you are seemingly claiming that its new.

    The only difference is that some (albeit no where near as many as you claim because you haven't read the actual critieria for acceptance for EU citizens) EU citizens can now claim it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    Baseball and cricket strike me as a lot more quantifiable than football. In fact, I can think of few sports which are less obviously quantifiable than football. So you completed a pass - how godo a pass was it? So you made a shot on target - did it cause the goalie any difficulty? And so forth.
    It is more difficult, but it is absolutely possible. I would need to give you a multi-hour powerpoint lecture to explain some of it.

    Liverpool already have probabilistic models that they can show players given their position vs particular defensive setups, what is the optimal action / area to run to...and then when they get their, what is the next optimal action. And this isn't at point A, now point B, this is as the player moves across the pitch.

    e.g. it is widely now excepted at the highest level the old idea of "down the wing, whip it in the box" is a generally a poor tactical approach, and has been shown via these models.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    I suspect behind the scenes the likes of LFC have plenty of data analytics.

    Even if Match of the Day just says "he made a header".
    They do, and StatsBomb and alike are producing more raw data. But there is a problem with football at the moment. Each team has detailed tracking of their own players via GPS, they don't have the same info on the opposition. Thus, they use the likes of Statsbomb to provide them with snapshot estimates (which are pretty good), but it only gives them what they call "event data" (x made a pass at y time to z, here are the estimated position of players at that time), which they then have to extrapolate information from.

    NBA has every player position in 3d at I believe 30fps and had it for nearly 10 years now. And this data is open to every team. I believe NFL allows every team to have the GPS data of all other teams. Same with baseball, each pitch tracked exactly from hand to glove, every player position, etc etc etc. So the level of analytics and modelling they have been able to develop is significantly greater.
    But there is still a huge human element to it. Okay, signing Tom Brady doesn't guarantee you a Super Bowl win, but it's a bloody big help.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Remember Sturgeon strongly advising against travel to London? No, me neither:

    THE surge in coronavirus cases is partly linked to football fans watching the Euro 2020 tournament indoors, Scotland's Health Secretary Humza Yousaf has said.

    A number of cases have also been linked to coaches transporting fans to London to watch Scotland play, Mr Yousaf added.


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/7326785/coronavirus-scotland-euro-2020-london-covid/
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    TimS said:

    A win for the Tories in B&S might well reassure them enough that the C&A loss will be swiftly forgotten and no lessons learned. The emphasis on the mythical "red wall" will increase, and the US-style pivot between the parties will continue.

    The trouble for Labour is that none of this helps them. A B&S defeat will trigger yet more infighting and I suspect a sense of despair. I do think it makes more sense for them to do the bloodletting now than in the run up to the next general election, but I worry they will draw the wrong lessons.

    Do the Tories need to learn anything from C&A? The Lib Dems went for all NIMBY and won. I don't agree with HS2 (and I don't know much about the planning laws stuff, to be honest), but I think the Tories shouldn't worry about losing a by-election like C&A. Much better to play the long game.
    That's probable, and they shouldn't overreact to such a loss as governments do lose such things (albeit this was a pretty big majority to lose even so) but that doesn't mean they shouldn't react.

    It's worth keeping an eye on - as others have noted they can afford to lose a few southern seats, particularly if they make more progress in the north, but they shouldn't be complacent, and the impression only the red wall matters could be trouble.
    If the Tories lose say 25 seats to the LibDems, their majority is reduced by 50. Could be important.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,072

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. NFL actually have "big data" bowl competitions, where they release a tiny snapshot of the masses of data they have for anybody to try their hand. Football is actually still a laggard.
    There was an interesting discussion during one of the Test Match intervals recently with a couple of cricket analysts where the contrast with football was brought up. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available as a podcast.

    Even in cricket they haven't yet started to record field placings, so they were expecting that to be the next great leap forwards in cricket analysis.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kle4 said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    Yes - I want the country to be far more open than most do I suspect, I'm inclined to be overgenerous on any such rules and not like restrictions or limits, or even just policing the rules we have a bit harshly.

    But I just cannot see how it is the case that the UK's policies in this regard are apparently egregiously bad and a national shame compared to others, which is the specific allegation being made.

    It's a bit too close to when people are so intent on criticising bad rules around immigation/asylum that they give the impression (sometimes deliberate sometimes not) that any rules on them are unacceptable and gammony.
    Of course its worth noting of the estimated #the3million EU citizens living in the UK, five million of them have now applied for Settled Status - and they are all excluded from being able to apply for the resettlement scheme that Rochdale is banging on about for illegal immigrants that has existed since 2016.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    Do you have a source on this being a Tory policy?

    As opposed to a Tony Blair Labour policy that has been left in place?
    Perhaps its a Tory policy as it was introduced by the government in January 2021. They have taken a scheme to remove illegal migrants with no right to be here and turned it into one where we pay our own workforce to return to their EU countries of origin.

    If as you claim that existed in 2006 then you must have taken a break from writing the H&S Manual to rewrite history. Again. As I said if Tories feel good about paying people who legally live work and pay taxes here to fuck off back where they came from the Good For You.

    Source please because the Government website says you're lying.
    That is why we have written to stakeholders to inform them that EEA nationals who wish to leave the UK may now be eligible for support to help them do so under the voluntary returns scheme.”
    You're objecting to the government helping people to return home?

    You'd rather they spent a fortune dragging them through the courts and then to the boarding gate?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Trying a new visualisation, because I wanted to add the hospital occupancy levels AND a comparison with the September/October second wave.

    I've started this wave at the low point (the 7-day-average of cases bottomed out on 3rd of May).
    I started the second wave at the point where its seven-day average of cases was the same (which happened to be the 30th of August).

    (Second wave chosen because the first wave did not have sufficient measuring of cases, and the December/January wave built on the preceding September/October wave without time to allow hospital admissions to drop - and the cases numbers never did drop to comparable levels, anyway)

    Multi-coloured graphs show cases-to-hospitalisations over the same period of elapsed time, with hospitalisations lagged 7 days from cases.
    The grey graphs beneath show hospital occupancy against those dates.




    (NB: It should be borne in mind that:
    1 - The situation on the right is with far fewer restrictions than the one on the left
    2 - The variant circulating on the right is far more infections and spreads more quickly
    3 - The variant on the right is twice as likely to hospitalise someone than the one on the left

    Looks like vaccines work)

    I like it!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    tlg86 said:

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    I suspect behind the scenes the likes of LFC have plenty of data analytics.

    Even if Match of the Day just says "he made a header".
    They do, and StatsBomb and alike are producing more raw data. But there is a problem with football at the moment. Each team has detailed tracking of their own players via GPS, they don't have the same info on the opposition. Thus, they use the likes of Statsbomb to provide them with snapshot estimates (which are pretty good), but it only gives them what they call "event data" (x made a pass at y time to z, here are the estimated position of players at that time), which they then have to extrapolate information from.

    NBA has every player position in 3d at I believe 30fps and had it for nearly 10 years now. And this data is open to every team. I believe NFL allows every team to have the GPS data of all other teams. Same with baseball, each pitch tracked exactly from hand to glove, every player position, etc etc etc. So the level of analytics and modelling they have been able to develop is significantly greater.
    But there is still a huge human element to it. Okay, signing Tom Brady doesn't guarantee you a Super Bowl win, but it's a bloody big help.
    Hmmm, yes and no. NFL is 4d chess. Brady is told which play to run, based on huge big data analytics and sometimes the coach overriding that. The difference say in a Brady is his ability to make the play consistently it incredible level of accuracy, quickly, and under pressure, or a Mahomes, that is able to quickly see the chosen play won't work and on the fly adjust while some 6ft 8inch 350 pound guy is charging full steam at him.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Gnud said:

    It was probably a mistake for Labour to choose Kim Leadbetter as their candidate. That her sister was murdered seven years ago won't lose her any votes but I doubt it will win her many either. A lot has gone under the bridge since then, and people have short memories. And why would it make her a good MP anyway?

    Things could be much worse on the streets. Good to hear Tommy Robinson didn't show up in the constituency on Saturday in support of the For Britain candidate, Anne Marie Waters. Let's hope he doesn't stick his oar in before polling day.

    George Galloway is likely to exceed 5% because of the emotional levers he pulls among parts of the British Pakistani electorate. If one in three voters in that demographic vote for him in B&S that will be 7%.

    The "Conservative" government has directly lifted one of Tommy's racist policies. Pay money to incentivise forriners to "go home". His work is done whether he goes to B&S or not. That it is cheered on by "rule Britannia England for the English pure bred anglo-saxon boo the England team" racists apparently makes it "good policy".
    That £3,000 has been around since 2006 when I believe Tony Blair was still in control

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seekers-offered-163-3-000-deal-to-go-home-6111854.html
    Thats cash to failed Asylum seekers with no right to be in the UK to ensure they actually leave. Vs the cost of locking them up / escorting them onto a plane it was probably best value.

    This is cash for workers. People who are here legally and paying taxes and doing work that is needed. We want then to go home so that we can create a big shortage of labour in care homes and the NHS and logistics and manufacturing and all the other jobs that people refuse to do so that we can blame the EU for the problems.

    "Forriners! How would you like to go back where you came from so that we don't have to look at you any more or listen to your forrin languages? Here's £3k to fuck off back to Latvia or Pakistan or wherever". Rule Britannia and all that.
    Care to look at the actual rules

    https://www.gov.uk/return-home-voluntarily/who

    You cannot apply for voluntary return if you either:

    applied for, or have, settled or pre-settled status under the EU settlement scheme - even if you withdraw your application
    started living in the UK before 1 January 2021 and meet the ‘right to reside’ criteria

    So you only qualify if you arrived after 1/1/2021 ...
    And? They've already extended it once. We're succeeding in driving the workforce we need away and we're now offering cash to accelerate it. We're about to hit the deadline where EU nationals needed to have registered to stay - they'll be next won't they.

    It is a sad reflection of what England has become. As I said on here previously I am glad to have left and for some of you I know the feeling is mutual. You go do what you want to England, I'll live somewhere a bit less gammony if thats ok.
    If somebody hasn't applied yet, what exactly have they been doing for the past several years? The UK government have given EU nationals absolutely every chance to apply, millions have. The scheme is so generous, that plenty of EU nationals who don't actually live here can (sensibly for them) play the system and ensure they can still work here.

    And we been far more generous than many EU countries with UK nationals who are long term residents there.
    I have no idea why they haven't registered. Probably the same reason why various Brits haven't registered in Spain. Either way we're still extending the Assisted Returns scheme to pay them to go home...
    We're not extending it.

    If they're here illegally and meet the eligibility criteria they're eligible. Always was the case since Blair introduced it.

    What's new is that anyone who arrived after 1/1/21 or who doesn't register to stay is here illegally. But shouldn't that automatically mean this scheme applies? 🤔
    Final word because I have stuff to do. You say "we're not extending it." Home Office says they have extended it. As you are absolutely right as always, the Home Office must be wrong about what the Home Office is doing.
    Quote from the Home Office saying they're extending it please?

    Because there is none from either the website or the Guardian link. That's your own imagination it seems to me, not the Home Office.

    If people are here illegally then they're pretty much automatically eligible for the resettlement scheme so long as they meet the other eligibility criteria. That automatically includes anyone who arrives from the EU without a visa (or overstaying a visa) from 1/1/21, or any of the 3 million EU citizens in the UK who aren't in the 5 million that have applied for Settled Status.

    No extension necessary. The pre-existing law already applied. If you see a change in the law by the Home Office changing it I'd be curious when a statutory instrument or other went through Parliament, or a quote from the Home Office saying so, their words not yours. Otherwise this is the law as introduced by Blair being applied equally to all.
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,072

    On the anti-Whitty protestors, the thing that most concerns me is that the charge of treason is now being thrown around at every turn.

    This is another Brexit benefit, of course, encouraged by the two post-referendum governments, to brand any criticism of the implementation of Brexit as treason. This poison, now unleashed, spreads further through our political discourse.

    Thanks for that.

    Surely the point about the what poor Chris Whitty had to endure is the public are losing faith in and respect for this government in many of its manifestations. Post Hancock, that is hardly surprising.
    Pre-Brexit people often lost faith and respect for government and its representatives. Don't remember the accusation of treason being thrown around though.

    Treason is a particularly hostile accusation. It leaves no room for debate. It justifies extreme measures in response.

    So, not surprising that people are upset. Worrying that they are expressing that in the form of an accusation of treason.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. NFL actually have "big data" bowl competitions, where they release a tiny snapshot of the masses of data they have for anybody to try their hand. Football is actually still a laggard.
    There was an interesting discussion during one of the Test Match intervals recently with a couple of cricket analysts where the contrast with football was brought up. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available as a podcast.

    Even in cricket they haven't yet started to record field placings, so they were expecting that to be the next great leap forwards in cricket analysis.
    Sam Billings gave a great interview a while back about IPL. He said they are ahead of the rest of the game when it comes to analytics, closely followed by England setup. All this stuff about strike rate and bowler run rate etc is basically nonsense in T20.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,883

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    In the last five years, the number of data points available to football teams has gone from 4000 per game to four million. I wrote about the football data revolution, and how it could be a key factor in England v Germany, for @wireduk #ENGGER

    https://twitter.com/amitkatwala/status/1409793309875245056?s=20

    I know sports data has always been used, but for some reason that level of analytics depresses me.
    You should see what they do with the likes of baseball and NBA now....cricket is now fast catching up. Football is actually still a laggard.
    Baseball and cricket strike me as a lot more quantifiable than football. In fact, I can think of few sports which are less obviously quantifiable than football. So you completed a pass - how godo a pass was it? So you made a shot on target - did it cause the goalie any difficulty? And so forth.
    It is more difficult, but it is absolutely possible. I would need to give you a multi-hour powerpoint lecture to explain some of it.

    Liverpool already have probabilistic models that they can show players given their position vs particular defensive setups, what is the optimal action / area to run to...and then when they get their, what is the next optimal action. And this isn't at point A, now point B, this is as the player moves across the pitch.

    e.g. it is widely now excepted at the highest level the old idea of "down the wing, whip it in the box" is a generally a poor tactical approach, and has been shown via these models.
    I know for a fact that some companies pay people to watch recent football matches and record quantitive information which covers questions like "how good a pass was it?".

    Do it properly, consistently and for enough matches, then a lot of profit can be made out of it.
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