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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New guest slot poster, Innocent Abroad on “Betting Past the

SystemSystem Posts: 12,214
edited January 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New guest slot poster, Innocent Abroad on “Betting Past the Tribe”

One of the attractions of betting on politics, perhaps, is that, unlike, say, betting on horseracing, there are no rules: no authority – other than the law itself – to determine what is or is not improper conduct.

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Comments

  • Nice to see some propah' puntahs' return. Now for the politics....
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited January 2014
    Is it possible to find a way to bet on politics that overcomes this interference?

    Given the above quote and from the above statement itself; has the author "inferred" that "interference" moves betting-markets (or that implied expectations implore an imploding situation)? Do misplaced words move markets...?

    Please show your working.
    Answers on a post: Stampage not required....
    :nice-post-IA:
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    FPT


    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Welcome to the team. I agree that turnout is likely to be lower next time though I'm not sure that generational change is the biggest driver (turnout has increased in the last two elections, after all). Voter disillusionment is a bigger factor and while that is more prevalent in younger voters, it's by no means confined to them. There's also a sector (perhaps growing) for which voting is a culturally alien concept. These are not necessarily disillusioned as such; more so disengaged that they don't even have the awareness to be disillusioned.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,624
    Alanbrooke, don't forget that he's also slept with Segolene Royal- and she was pretty hot too
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014

    FPT


    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html

    Mr Brooke

    The thought of you fantasising about riding pillion through the wilds of Warwickshire on a chauffeur driven motorcycle and in pursuit of secret sex is causing me to choke on my amuses bouches.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    rcs1000 said:

    Alanbrooke, don't forget that he's also slept with Segolene Royal- and she was pretty hot too

    It reminds me of the George Best story.......

    a waiter brings him room service – walks into his room bringing more bottles of champagne and there was George in bed with two stunning models and his bed was strewn with £20 notes – the waiter looked at George and said – “Mr Best where did it all go wrong”……………
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Might be a good time to ask `What`s OGH`?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Blimey! Three quick change threads today and it's only 20;00hrs.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    SMukesh said:

    Might be a good time to ask `What`s OGH`?

    OGH = "Our genial host"

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    SMukesh said:

    Might be a good time to ask `What`s OGH`?

    Our Genial Host a.k.a. Mikey-Mike "The Power" Smithson

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    AveryLP said:

    FPT


    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html

    Mr Brooke

    The thought of you fantasising about riding pillion through the wilds of Warwickshire on a chauffeur driven motorcycle is causing me to choke on my amuses bouches.
    I was thinking more amuse-couilles myself Mr Pole ;-)
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    Surely staff cuts in electoral registration offices would increase turnout?

    ie The fewer people who are registered, the higher turnout will be - because keen people will register and there will be less people who usually don't bother voting on the register.

    One thing to check is the total electorate vs population change - I seem to recall posting on here that the 2011 electorate used for the aborted boundary review showed a much, much smaller increase on the 2001 electorate than would be expected from population change.

    The above should therefore lead to a higher turnout! (all other things being equal).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    @Fluffy Thoughts Inbox if you will :)
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759

    SMukesh said:

    Might be a good time to ask `What`s OGH`?

    OGH = "Our genial host"

    @Freggles

    Tnx.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    FPT


    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html

    Mr Brooke

    The thought of you fantasising about riding pillion through the wilds of Warwickshire on a chauffeur driven motorcycle is causing me to choke on my amuses bouches.
    I was thinking more amuse-couilles myself Mr Pole ;-)
    As Comrade Sunilsky might exclaim: очень грязный собака.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    "Expect turnout to be lower next time"

    except it's risen at the past two elections....
  • Pulpstar said:

    @Fluffy Thoughts Inbox if you will :)

    What? Checked and you posted my last post back (or summinck)? Bet stands as agreed!
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited January 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    "Expect turnout to be lower next time"

    except it's risen at the past two elections....

    Sir Roderick

    You need to factor in the probability that the 2010 Lib Dem defectors will stay at home.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    I normally vote Conservative, and was really anti Gordon Brown at the least GE. This election I couldn't really give a monkeys who wins and may well vote UKIP.. or Lib Dem. Or perhaps even Conservative - I'll decide on the day. In the words of Ed Balls "Couldn't give a toss"

    Aim of the game is to try and make dosh out of it this time round.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    @Fluffy Thoughts Inbox if you will :)

    What? Checked and you posted my last post back (or summinck)? Bet stands as agreed!
    Fair enough, I'm happy with that :)
  • A question about "What is OGH" and an answer that ...it's risen... on the same thread...?

    :beware-auntie-hortence's-wrath...:
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    Fair enough, I'm happy with that :)

    Only a Sino-Nipponese War or NoRK invasion could save me now! Payments/Charity-terms to be agreed on settlement....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    Fair enough, I'm happy with that :)

    Only a Sino-Nipponese War or NoRK invasion could save me now! Payments/Charity-terms to be agreed on settlement....
    I'd have thought a war would BOOST the price of oil personally !

    What you need is for Iran to announce it is going to transform to a western style democracy, and Saudi Arabia too. And OPEC to disband. That lot would see oil drop...

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014
    O/T for this thread but highly relevant to the discussion of Mr Gove and the Great War (and Mr Cameron's Union Jack-fest for 2014-18 by way of celebrating the GW) - a survey of public attitudes summarised here, inter aliis (those with more expertise will be able to assess the basic data better than me).

    The big surprise (to me anyway) is the attitude of the UKIP-minded. I can't think why, unless they are of the opinion we should never have got involved in the first place (with Germany holding the Belgian ports and Tirpitz's Riskflotte to which the French Navy would be added??).

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/some-things-you-should-know/#more-47269

    The bit on expelling Scotland and Catalonia from the EU is also interesting!
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.
  • FPT


    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html

    Reminds me of the " Mr Best, where did it all go wrong ?" question.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
  • compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    RodCrosby said:

    "Expect turnout to be lower next time"

    except it's risen at the past two elections....

    But was that a bump or a trend (or both)?

    We know that one factor of turnout is how close the election is perceived to be (i.e. will my vote matter). That alone will have increased turnout last time.

    Another, related, one is does it matter who wins? If all three parties are seen to be too much alike - and no other has a good chance - that should depress turnout.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    The only way the 59 Scottish seats could b
    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    The only way the 59 Scottish seats could be excluded at GE2015 is if in the immediate aftermath of a YES vote the Westminster government laid a bill excluding the Scottish seats. Labour would almost certainly oppose it through vested interests (as might several LibDems unless a deal has been done between Cameron and Clegg) and the Parliament Act would almost certainly have to be imposed. The media would howl in protest but I suspect the typical English voter would be 100% behind the move.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
    Heard on the radio today that Fallujah? could be turning into another Syria...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    Presumably there is clear provision for what happens if the course is wet or the race is postponed. You might want to contemplate the significance of the SNP suggestion of postponing the nominally 2015 Westminster GE till after independence day, if there is a yes vote (touch wood). It strikes me that the date given for formal independence, of (IIRC) 24 March 2016, would give Mr Cameron time to get back on the plane from Turnhouse to Northolt after flag down at midnight on the Castle Esplanade, come to the H of C, dissolve the UK Parliament forever, and allow six weeks' purdah for the new EWNI parliament, saying bye-bye to the Scottish constituency MPs at the same time. This could resolve a number of interesting little problems which would otherwise arise with a GE in the middle of negotiations ... (I am not familiar with the laws, but the last Scottish GE was postponed when Mr C and his little helpers fouled up and double booked, so presumably this is possible, especially as it would constitute a major constitutional emergency by any standards.)

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    It's almost certain that there'd be a UK general election in 2015 would be held in Scotland too even in the event of a Yes: the residents there would still have the right to a Westminster representative until independence. Apart from anything, legislation would have to be passed in the space of a few months to disenfranchise several million voters - something that would surely be controversial and could easily be blocked.

    That said, if there is a Yes, I'd anticipate an SNP landslide north of the border in both 2015 and 2016.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    It's almost certain that there'd be a UK general election in 2015 would be held in Scotland too even in the event of a Yes: the residents there would still have the right to a Westminster representative until independence. Apart from anything, legislation would have to be passed in the space of a few months to disenfranchise several million voters - something that would surely be controversial and could easily be blocked.

    That said, if there is a Yes, I'd anticipate an SNP landslide north of the border in both 2015 and 2016.
    SNP landslide is fine. It substantially raises the probability of a minority Gov't.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343

    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    The only way the 59 Scottish seats could b
    Pulpstar said:

    A very well written piece so well done IA. If I had the money to bet, I would bet according to likelihood of winning, not out of blind loyalty to the Tory party. Some PBers fully understand odds and can bet on both sides of an election outcome to ensure they always win/don't lose. That is a skill I admire.

    Whilst backing constituencies (Following R Nabavi's advice) on the Blue side and backing the reds on the overall side SHOULD produce a profit (Or at least a heavily semi-arbed book) and doing it the other way round this time would be in my eyes lunacy it doesn't guarantee a profit.

    There is always an element of risk - bookies going bust, claiming 'palpable errors', Scotland going independent and no GE in Scottish seats in 2015... (Though I have been assured there will be a GE2015 in Scotland even if YES - but it is not 100% definite)..

    Likely but not guaranteed.
    The only way the 59 Scottish seats could be excluded at GE2015 is if in the immediate aftermath of a YES vote the Westminster government laid a bill excluding the Scottish seats. Labour would almost certainly oppose it through vested interests (as might several LibDems unless a deal has been done between Cameron and Clegg) and the Parliament Act would almost certainly have to be imposed. The media would howl in protest but I suspect the typical English voter would be 100% behind the move.
    Would the Supreme Court not be invoked, or is that too Americanese a concept?
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
    Nobody declared mission accomplished. Some idiotic churnalists and posters like to say so.

  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
    Heard on the radio today that Fallujah? could be turning into another Syria...
    http://www.aljazeera.com/video/middleeast/2014/01/thousands-flee-fighting-iraq-fallujah-2014110134156502517.html
  • perdix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
    Nobody declared mission accomplished. Some idiotic churnalists and posters like to say so.

    http://humboldtsentinel.com/2013/05/07/ten-years-since-mission-accomplished/

    Do my eyes deceive me?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Asked by reporters if personnel were coming home with the message "mission accomplished", the prime minister, accompanied by former England footballer Michael Owen, said: "Yes, I think they do."

    He added: "To me, the absolute driving part of the mission is a basic level of security so it doesn't become a haven for terror. That is the mission, that was the mission and I think we will have accomplished that mission and so our troops can be very proud of what they have done."
  • Is Fulla
    Pulpstar said:

    Heard on the radio today that Fallujah? could be turning into another Syria...

    Were you listening to some Jamaican radio-station? If so then: "Flu-jab is serious" may have been the message...?
  • perdix said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If oil does go below £50 then filling the car up should be cheaper - so there is some weird hedge in there somewhere :)

    War sends oil rocketing - Some idiot declaring "Mission Accomplished" sends it spiraling downwards.
    Nobody declared mission accomplished. Some idiotic churnalists and posters like to say so.

    http://humboldtsentinel.com/2013/05/07/ten-years-since-mission-accomplished/

    Do my eyes deceive me?
    Iraq was the most hideous of Labour's various disasters between 1997-2010. You should be grateful for Cameron's grace and decency.

  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653
    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Asked by reporters if personnel were coming home with the message "mission accomplished", the prime minister, accompanied by former England footballer Michael Owen, said: "Yes, I think they do."

    He added: "To me, the absolute driving part of the mission is a basic level of security so it doesn't become a haven for terror. That is the mission, that was the mission and I think we will have accomplished that mission and so our troops can be very proud of what they have done."

    http://www.channel4.com/news/afghanistan-david-cameron-uk-troops-mission-accomplished
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    Is Fulla

    Pulpstar said:

    Heard on the radio today that Fallujah? could be turning into another Syria...

    Were you listening to some Jamaican radio-station? If so then: "Flu-jab is serious" may have been the message...?
    Not unless Radio 5 Live is Jamaican ?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited January 2014
    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1922
  • Pulpstar said:

    Is Fulla

    Pulpstar said:

    Heard on the radio today that Fallujah? could be turning into another Syria...

    Were you listening to some Jamaican radio-station? If so then: "Flu-jab is serious" may have been the message...?
    Not unless Radio 5 Live is Jamaican ?
    Maybe not Radio 5:

    http://www.hot102.fm/index2.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=104&Itemid=60&Name=Value
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1922
    Interesting point. But had the Irish not already departed, so to speak, from Westminster, years before? Also, this was more in the way of a peace treaty than a constitutional referendum.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.
    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked. Politics has changed since 1921. We can have a history debate about the relative support for Lloyd George versus Cameron within their parliamentary majorities, but I think that would only stack the evidence against coalition survival further. Ignoring this risk requires a belief that both the Tories AND the Lib Dems would back their leaders who led the country to partition. This seems unlikely.
  • Carnyx said:

    Interesting point. But had the Irish not already departed, so to speak, from Westminster, years before? Also, this was more in the way of a peace treaty than a constitutional referendum.

    Ireland [Eire] left when Westminster said so. Being part of the League of Nations (underwritten by Wilson's Thirteen Points) did not help. The fact is the the Oirish leaving did not cause an election.
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Given that it seems to take around a year for any law to finally make it onto the statue books and become enforceable, and that a year is about all the time between a general election in 2015 and scots independence in 2016 it seems less that intuitive to me that they need any for of representation as it is unlikely that any laws will be passed in that time that affects them
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014
    ZenPagan said:

    Given that it seems to take around a year for any law to finally make it onto the statue books and become enforceable, and that a year is about all the time between a general election in 2015 and scots independence in 2016 it seems less that intuitive to me that they need any for of representation as it is unlikely that any laws will be passed in that time that affects them

    Budgets and the enabling legislation? DORA in (IIRC) 1939? Starting a war somewhere?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited January 2014
    EPG said:

    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked....

    You mean the kind of behaviour that Gormless McBruin exhibited after Labour got less than 30% of the popular vote? Don't forget: Politicians' are legally lieing at election times (thanks to the High-Court's acceptance of Labour piece-of-pish manifest, 2005)....
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    MikeL said:

    Surely staff cuts in electoral registration offices would increase turnout?

    ie The fewer people who are registered, the higher turnout will be - because keen people will register and there will be less people who usually don't bother voting on the register.

    One thing to check is the total electorate vs population change - I seem to recall posting on here that the 2011 electorate used for the aborted boundary review showed a much, much smaller increase on the 2001 electorate than would be expected from population change.

    The above should therefore lead to a higher turnout! (all other things being equal).

    Not really because I doubt there is a correlation between the 'plague on all their houses' disaffection or detachment of those who never vote and the relative disaffection of registered voters. I imagine people who register to vote tend to do so out of habit rather than any reflection of their feelings on the current or future political situation even if they decide not to vote on the day. So consequently its quite possible for both the proportion of the eligible population registering and the number of registered voters voting to rise simultaneously or fall simultaneously . In fact any combination is I suspect relatively equally possible.

    For what its worth there are something like 6 million eligible citizens who are not registered to vote and something around 46 million registered.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-reviews-and-research/new-report-shows-at-least-6m-people-not-registered-to-vote

    As for turnout in 2015, I think it is dependent on if there is anything to really capture the electorate's imagination (like a strong desire to get rid of the government for something better). I don't get that sense. Firstly Labour have been nothing but dull and unimpressive and so will not inspire great confidence or enthusiasm (things are definitely not going to get better). Similarly the Conservative message is going to be muted still being more austerity than prosperity with neither of the main protagonists able to capture any real sense of nation or competence. Given these factors my sense is turnout will slip to something close to 2005 levels.

    However, if the narrative further turns to the result being a foregone conclusion (with Labour poll leads remaining sufficient to ensure a majority) turnout could slip even further with disappointed/ disaffected Tories and those not particularly election minded staying at home.

    If on the other hand its perceived as a close election where NOM is likely and either main party could be returned to Downing Street then that may improve turnout and push it closer to 2010 levels

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    I think

    MikeL said:

    Surely staff cuts in electoral registration offices would increase turnout?

    ie The fewer people who are registered, the higher turnout will be - because keen people will register and there will be less people who usually don't bother voting on the register.

    One thing to check is the total electorate vs population change - I seem to recall posting on here that the 2011 electorate used for the aborted boundary review showed a much, much smaller increase on the 2001 electorate than would be expected from population change.

    The above should therefore lead to a higher turnout! (all other things being equal).

    Not really because I doubt there is a correlation between the 'plague on all their houses' disaffection or detachment of those who never vote and the relative disaffection of registered voters. I imagine people who register to vote tend to do so out of habit rather than any reflection of their feelings on the current or future political situation even if they decide not to vote on the day. So consequently its quite possible for both the proportion of the eligible population registering and the number of registered voters voting could both be falling.

    For what its worth there are something like 6 million eligible citizens who are not registered to vote and something around 46 million registered.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-reviews-and-research/new-report-shows-at-least-6m-people-not-registered-to-vote

    As for turnout in 2015, I think it is dependent on if there is anything to really capture the electorate's imagination (like a strong desire to get rid of the government for something better). I don't get that sense. Firstly Labour have been nothing but dull and unimpressive and so will not inspire great confidence or enthusiasm (things are definitely not going to get better). Similarly the Conservative message is going to be muted still being more austerity than prosperity with neither of the main protagonists able to capture any real sense of nation or competence. Given these factors my sense is turnout will slip to something close to 2005 levels.

    However, if the narrative further turns to the result being a foregone conclusion (with Labour poll leads remaining sufficient to ensure a majority) turnout could slip even further with disappointed/ disaffected Tories and those not particularly election minded staying at home.

    If on the other hand its perceived as a close election where NOM is likely and either main party could be returned to Downing Street then that may improve turnout and push it closer to 2010 levels

    If COn is polling an average of 35 and Labour 38 the media/public will think the SEAT race is a whole lot tighter than it is...
  • EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.
    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked. Politics has changed since 1921. We can have a history debate about the relative support for Lloyd George versus Cameron within their parliamentary majorities, but I think that would only stack the evidence against coalition survival further. Ignoring this risk requires a belief that both the Tories AND the Lib Dems would back their leaders who led the country to partition. This seems unlikely.
    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?
  • ZenPaganZenPagan Posts: 689
    Carnyx said:

    ZenPagan said:

    Given that it seems to take around a year for any law to finally make it onto the statue books and become enforceable, and that a year is about all the time between a general election in 2015 and scots independence in 2016 it seems less that intuitive to me that they need any for of representation as it is unlikely that any laws will be passed in that time that affects them

    Budgets and the enabling legislation? DORA in (IIRC) 1939? Starting a war somewhere?
    Carnyx said:

    ZenPagan said:

    Given that it seems to take around a year for any law to finally make it onto the statue books and become enforceable, and that a year is about all the time between a general election in 2015 and scots independence in 2016 it seems less that intuitive to me that they need any for of representation as it is unlikely that any laws will be passed in that time that affects them

    Budgets and the enabling legislation? DORA in (IIRC) 1939? Starting a war somewhere?
    It is highly unlikely though for anything of signifigance to be done. The budget you have a small point but lets face it the budget is a series of small changes.

    On the other hand if you have scots representatives it runs a very real risk of having a government change one year after an election purely because a certain proportion of mp's are now excluded.

    Personally I think it is pretty slim reason to need representation and certainly there should be no scots mps involved in the negotiations on the uk side whether as participants or even able to vote on proposals.

    While I support scots independance I think it is a bit much to expect to have mp's around for a year when you have announced your departure with all the expense and turmoil it creates
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.
    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked. Politics has changed since 1921. We can have a history debate about the relative support for Lloyd George versus Cameron within their parliamentary majorities, but I think that would only stack the evidence against coalition survival further. Ignoring this risk requires a belief that both the Tories AND the Lib Dems would back their leaders who led the country to partition. This seems unlikely.
    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?
    Did any administration resign because it lost the US, India, Canada ...?

    The way to resolve that point re Labour is for the Tories and LDs to take the view that it was the fault of the London -based parties collectively, so no change pro tem till it was sorted out.

  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    ZenPagan said:

    Given that it seems to take around a year for any law to finally make it onto the statue books and become enforceable, and that a year is about all the time between a general election in 2015 and scots independence in 2016 it seems less that intuitive to me that they need any for of representation as it is unlikely that any laws will be passed in that time that affects them

    I would have thought that having won the referendum, the Scottish SNP Government would wish to negotiate directly on all matters decided by Westminster during the transition period to independence and not leave it to the Scottish Labour and Libdem opposition parties who previously dominated Scottish representation in Westminster to make the decisions.

    The question is having won the independence referendum could the SNP government legally withdraw from the General Election? I suspect under the circumstances they could justify their case.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    edited January 2014
    Carnyx said:

    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.
    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked. Politics has changed since 1921. We can have a history debate about the relative support for Lloyd George versus Cameron within their parliamentary majorities, but I think that would only stack the evidence against coalition survival further. Ignoring this risk requires a belief that both the Tories AND the Lib Dems would back their leaders who led the country to partition. This seems unlikely.
    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?
    Did any administration resign because it lost the US, India, Canada ...?

    The way to resolve that point re Labour is for the Tories and LDs to take the view that it was the fault of the London -based parties collectively, so no change pro tem till it was sorted out.

    Resign or not, Cameron's place in history would be assured.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,653

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    EPG said:

    EPG said:

    Surely the government couldn't possibly carry on in the event of a vote to split the country. At the very least, Cameron and Clegg would have to quit. That would almost certainly lead to a snap election in late 2014 including Scotland, then another one after independence.

    1921. Next question.
    I do not mean that they are legally obliged to resign. I mean that in the modern era, a prime minister who could not convince part of his country to stay in would be pilloried and sacked. Politics has changed since 1921. We can have a history debate about the relative support for Lloyd George versus Cameron within their parliamentary majorities, but I think that would only stack the evidence against coalition survival further. Ignoring this risk requires a belief that both the Tories AND the Lib Dems would back their leaders who led the country to partition. This seems unlikely.
    The No campaign is being led by Labour politicians, so it's not at all clear why a Yes would automatically lead to the government falling.

    Re postponing elections, leaving the Scots out etc. The Parliament Act can only be used in the session of parliament following the Lords blocking something i.e. usually not for a year. With the referendum in the late summer / early autumn of 2014 and the general election in the spring of 2015, the Parliament Act probably couldn't come into play (unless there were two, short, sessions, specifically to enable its use).
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Is this going to piss off teachers more than Gove?

    @RSylvesterTimes: Teachers will have to be regularly relicensed if Labour wins power, says Tristram Hunt in interview for @thetimes http://t.co/BwJioFlHiH
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014
    EPG said:

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
    It's more (for some, at least) a genuine fear of the chaos Labour could cause - they might be tempted to try and strike down a yes result (for instance, the sudden concern for the voting rights of prisoners) or otherwise sabotage it. If Mr Ian Davidson MP can demand that the MoD make his constituents in the Glasgow shipyards unemployed in the case of a Yes vote ... well, he has nothing to lose as he'd be in the front of the queue at the Jobcentre. At the very least, there would be a real worry about the continuity of negotiations if the GE happened in 2015 and Labour took over.
  • compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    edited January 2014
    Doubt it has been mentioned on here, however, the grandmother who killed herself for being£20 a week worse off due to the bedroom tax, had actually been given the wrong information and in fact she wouldn't have been effected due to a loophole.

    http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/bedroom_tax_suicide_grandmother_was_exempt
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,711
    EPG said:

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
    The decision of the 2010 Parliament was that elections be held every 5 years. I would suggest that although there would have to be elections in the Scottish seats in 2015, then part of the deal would have to be that those members would no longer be MP's after Independence Day. Might alter the balance of power in Westmenister, but that could be coped with.
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    EPG said:

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
    Given the brazenness of politicians these days and given the proximity of the General election and given I would expect Scotland to withdraw from the general election (with the obvious benefit for the Tories) preferring direct negotiations with Westminster I expect all the party leaders to continue to the General election when the people would decide. Clearly the loser of the election would be forced to resign.

    Given the change of dynamics that the loss of Scotland would cause politically south of the border and the potential apathy (based on previous polling attitudes in England particularly) south of the border to Scotland's independence I wouldn't be surprised if Cameron actually won the 2015 election in such circumstances (albeit largest party rather than majority). The key thing would be for him to be able to present a robust position in terms of negotiating Scotland's departure.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343

    EPG said:

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
    Given the brazenness of politicians these days and given the proximity of the General election and given I would expect Scotland to withdraw from the general election (with the obvious benefit for the Tories) preferring direct negotiations with Westminster I expect all the party leaders to continue to the General election when the people would decide. Clearly the loser of the election would be forced to resign.

    Given the change of dynamics that the loss of Scotland would cause politically south of the border and the potential apathy (based on previous polling attitudes in England particularly) south of the border to Scotland's independence I wouldn't be surprised if Cameron actually won the 2015 election in such circumstances (albeit largest party rather than majority). The key thing would be for him to be able to present a robust position in terms of negotiating Scotland's departure.
    Many thanks to you and the other commenters - some very interesting points.

    It strikes me, in the light of your comment, that (on balance) Mr Cameron's current policy (of not being involved in the referendum, at least personally up front, such as in TV debates with Mr Salmond) seems to be keeping his options open - he can get the credit for a No but blame others for a Yes. Labour (or at least a Labour backbench MP) is fronting the No Campaign with the support of a LD Sec of State ...

  • Another day; another history lesson....

    '"Westminster" lost Canada.' Where does this site find such ill-informed people...?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,567
    Thanks, Innocent, and welcome back. I'm not finding voters especially reluctant to vote, and the "certain to vote" question in various polls is IIRC getting the same sort of high-50s level as in the past. Quite a few 2010 non-voters say they'll vote next time, in two broad categories: disillusioned 2010 Labour voters (who sat it out then but have now remembered why they voted Labour before) and previously anti-everyone UKIP voters, some of whom are planning to vote for the first time in decades. Against that, there's a distinct lack of enthusiasm around, as IA notes. On balance I'd expect turnout to be similar to last time.

    The Diplomacy game has started with a bang - received 12 messages so far!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343
    edited January 2014

    Another day; another history lesson....

    '"Westminster" lost Canada.' Where does this site find such ill-informed people...?

    Well, it certainly seems no worse a comparison than Ireland in the 1920s, and perhaps a better one: it made the transition from total control by London to independent state, but through political methods, without armed insurrection and insurgency (the odd Red River affair perhaps excepted, though I forget the precise details). That we don't today speak of 'losing' Canada is surely the point.

  • Dods Parliamentary Awards shortlists announced a couple of days ago

    http://dodsparliamentaryawards.co.uk/shortlist
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited January 2014
    Ballot papers to Thirsk and Malton 560 Conservative members sent out today to decide on Ann McIntosh's reselection. Result expected for January 31
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    12 !

    I'm off to a freind's house
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Doubt it has been mentioned on here, however, the grandmother who killed herself for being£20 a week worse off due to the bedroom tax, had actually been given the wrong information and in fact she wouldn't have been effected due to a loophole.

    http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/bedroom_tax_suicide_grandmother_was_exempt

    As I recall, the reason she topped herself was that she wasn't right in the head. The senile old baggage wrote a rambling letter blaming the end of her coffin-dodging days on non-existent taxes, plus voices in her head or somesuch.

    Her estranged dropout son who hadn't seen her for years randomly appeared to grab some tabloid cash too. Pity he didn't care enough to cut his drug habit by 20 notes a week to look after his dear old ma, eh?

    It was in the Sunday People, so by definition the story was already a pile of fetid old bollocks.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    FPT: @Alanbrooke

    I do wonder about the Telegraph., DT writer asks if things can get any worse for Francois Hollande.


    FFS he's a middle aged fat bloke - he heads the world's fourth biggest economy with several millions at his disposal and is now allegedly enjoying the company of a hottish 40 yr old actress as well as a hottish 48 yr old.

    Tell you what I'll take on his problems.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10563267/Can-it-get-any-worse-for-Francois-Hollande.html
    ---------

    I could help out with some of his problems.
  • Thanks, Innocent, and welcome back. I'm not finding voters especially reluctant to vote, and the "certain to vote" question in various polls is IIRC getting the same sort of high-50s level as in the past. Quite a few 2010 non-voters say they'll vote next time, in two broad categories: disillusioned 2010 Labour voters (who sat it out then but have now remembered why they voted Labour before) and previously anti-everyone UKIP voters, some of whom are planning to vote for the first time in decades. Against that, there's a distinct lack of enthusiasm around, as IA notes. On balance I'd expect turnout to be similar to last time.

    The Diplomacy game has started with a bang - received 12 messages so far!

    Why did they vote for Labour before?
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited January 2014
    Poster 'A': A Prime-Minister should resign if he loses a country's sympathy. An election should be called.

    Poster 'B': 1921 as an example of territories given by Westminster should not lead to a GE.

    Poster 'Carynx': Adds the US, India, and Canada into the pot.

    So - eejit please find me the [UK general] elections in the following years:
    • 1776,
    • 1947, and (arguably)
    • 1982
    Or whun-awaays and wepwort me.....
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    Carnyx said:

    EPG said:

    But Labour are also part of the No side in the referendum debate. Should their leaders resign too if there is a Yes vote?

    I am not saying whether they "should" resign or not. I am saying it is exceedingly likely that a prime minister in a fractious coalition government, who had his country partitioned under his watch, would have his remaining term measured in days rather than years. There would LITERALLY never be a better time to try to replace him - or Clegg.

    Too many PB readers are letting their dislike of the Labour Party interrupt their analysis of politics. I didn't mention the Labour Party at all, because they can't determine the timing of the next general election. Isn't this partisanship what the original post warns about?
    Given the brazenness of politicians these days and given the proximity of the General election and given I would expect Scotland to withdraw from the general election (with the obvious benefit for the Tories) preferring direct negotiations with Westminster I expect all the party leaders to continue to the General election when the people would decide. Clearly the loser of the election would be forced to resign.

    Given the change of dynamics that the loss of Scotland would cause politically south of the border and the potential apathy (based on previous polling attitudes in England particularly) south of the border to Scotland's independence I wouldn't be surprised if Cameron actually won the 2015 election in such circumstances (albeit largest party rather than majority). The key thing would be for him to be able to present a robust position in terms of negotiating Scotland's departure.
    Many thanks to you and the other commenters - some very interesting points.

    It strikes me, in the light of your comment, that (on balance) Mr Cameron's current policy (of not being involved in the referendum, at least personally up front, such as in TV debates with Mr Salmond) seems to be keeping his options open - he can get the credit for a No but blame others for a Yes. Labour (or at least a Labour backbench MP) is fronting the No Campaign with the support of a LD Sec of State ...

    Indeed by keeping a low profile it does limit the perceived personal damage should he lose the referendum. He can't get away from it totally but it's feasible that he could push much of it away from him.

    The one thing that would not be clear is the reaction of the "men in grey suits" as to a vote for independence. To me that is the wild card in this and whilst otherwise I think it is entirely possible Cameron could survive and even benefit, the 'grey suits' (alongside a savaging in the English media) could despite my other thoughts see Cameron removed quickly.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Alanbrooke, don't forget that he's also slept with Segolene Royal- and she was pretty hot too

    Yes, and the media thinks he is boring !!
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    Great to see an article by Innocent Abroad.

    I will read properly and digest when I am less distracted by mobile phone concerns.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,343

    Poster 'A': A Prime-Minister should resign if he loses a country's sympathy. An election should be called.

    Poster 'B': 1921 as an example of territories given by Westminster should not lead to a GE.

    Poster 'Carynx': Adds the US, India, and Canada into the pot.

    So - eejit please find me the [UK general] elections in the following years:

    • 1776,
    • 1947, and (arguably)
    • 1982
    Or whun-awaays and wepwort me.....
    But surely that is the point - Attlee did not fall and no election was called because of India+Pakistan's independence. And India (in the old sense) was the jewel in the crown of empire etc. It's a perfectly serious question to consider, whether a Yes vote in the referendum would be even more exceptional in its effects so that it caused Mr Cameron to fall from PM and (which is not the same thing) a GE to be called.

    One might add, to Mr @smithersjones2013's most interesting point re the men in grey suits, the question of how the LDs would react either to the result itself or the new Tory leader, which is another wild card if perhaps one of a further (third?) order.


  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited January 2014
    Carnyx said:

    Poster 'A': A Prime-Minister should resign if he loses a country's sympathy. An election should be called.

    Poster 'B': 1921 as an example of territories given by Westminster should not lead to a GE.

    Poster 'Carynx': Adds the US, India, and Canada into the pot.

    So - eejit please find me the [UK general] elections in the following years:

    • 1776,
    • 1947, and (arguably)
    • 1982
    Or whun-awaays and wepwort me.....
    But surely that is the point - Attlee did not fall and no election was called because of India+Pakistan's independence. And India (in the old sense) was the jewel in the crown of empire etc. It's a perfectly serious question to consider, whether a Yes vote in the referendum would be even more exceptional in its effects so that it caused Mr Cameron to fall from PM and (which is not the same thing) a GE to be called.

    One might add, to Mr @smithersjones2013's most interesting point re the men in grey suits, the question of how the LDs would react either to the result itself or the new Tory leader, which is another wild card if perhaps one of a further (third?) order.


    You can add a further dimension to this if you ask what would possibly be the most powerful symbol to reinforce an SNP victory in the referendum and emphasise Scottish Independence without materially affecting Scotland's position? Surely recalling all Scotland's Westminster MP's immediately (using the Scottish courts to sanction it) would be high on that list?

    It would cause furore within Labour and Libdem ranks but at the same time Clegg and Miliband would be almost totally impotent (being soon to be foreign party leaders) and of course if such a ploy worked it would make the Tories a majority government in Westminster.

    There really are some intriguing possibilities to cause political (and legal) mayhem if independence is voted for.
  • compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    edited January 2014
    GeoffM said:

    Doubt it has been mentioned on here, however, the grandmother who killed herself for being£20 a week worse off due to the bedroom tax, had actually been given the wrong information and in fact she wouldn't have been effected due to a loophole.

    http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/bedroom_tax_suicide_grandmother_was_exempt

    As I recall, the reason she topped herself was that she wasn't right in the head. The senile old baggage wrote a rambling letter blaming the end of her coffin-dodging days on non-existent taxes, plus voices in her head or somesuch.

    Her estranged dropout son who hadn't seen her for years randomly appeared to grab some tabloid cash too. Pity he didn't care enough to cut his drug habit by 20 notes a week to look after his dear old ma, eh?

    It was in the Sunday People, so by definition the story was already a pile of fetid old bollocks.

    I take it The Heil was wrong also. Ah, it doesn't matter, she would have cost the state money anyway, saves us taxes, maybe if we could put people like this in a camp eh Geoff, and sort them out en masse. How much could we save then?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323209/Was-grandmother-driven-suicide-bedroom-tax-Unemployed-woman-53-hit-20-week-charge-dies-leaving-note-saying-Government-blame.html
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Doubt it has been mentioned on here, however, the grandmother who killed herself for being£20 a week worse off due to the bedroom tax, had actually been given the wrong information and in fact she wouldn't have been effected due to a loophole.

    http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/bedroom_tax_suicide_grandmother_was_exempt

    As I recall, the reason she topped herself was that she wasn't right in the head. The senile old baggage wrote a rambling letter blaming the end of her coffin-dodging days on non-existent taxes, plus voices in her head or somesuch.

    Her estranged dropout son who hadn't seen her for years randomly appeared to grab some tabloid cash too. Pity he didn't care enough to cut his drug habit by 20 notes a week to look after his dear old ma, eh?

    It was in the Sunday People, so by definition the story was already a pile of fetid old bollocks.

    I take it The Heil was wrong also. Ah, it doesn't matter, she would have cost the state money anyway, saves us taxes, maybe if we could put people like this in a camp eh Geoff, and sort them out en masse. How much could we save then?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323209/Was-grandmother-driven-suicide-bedroom-tax-Unemployed-woman-53-hit-20-week-charge-dies-leaving-note-saying-Government-blame.html
    The Mail said it ... so it must be true.

    Really? You surprise me. That's not an argument I expected you to use.

  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861
    My chat with the Tesco Mobile help agent appears to be in "moderation"
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Judging by my ed timeline maybe the NUT should do another teacher voting intention poll once this Tristram announcement filters through.

    900 teachers in each constituency was it? Could be betting implications folks ;)
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    "Mr Farage has studied Paddy Ashdown’s success when he led the Lib Dems to Commons seats by targeting vulnerable marginals and presenting his party as potential winners.

    After the European elections that is exactly what Ukip plans to do, to Tories, Labour and Lib Dems. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10565175/Nigel-Farage-spells-out-a-serious-message-for-Tories.html
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited January 2014
    This Tristram Hunt announcement seems to be yet another example of the Labour leadership assuming that the Westminster bubble consensus is also the consensus out there in the real world. In reality, I think this site posted polling data showing teachers were the 2nd most-respected profession, behind only doctors (and well ahead of business leaders, who the political class including Labour still bizarrely regard as deities who they can't afford to speak out against for fear of being seen as "uncredible").

    Most parents think teachers generally are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. The type of education proposal Labour could come up with which might go down well is making it easier to expel troublesome kids who have no interest whatsoever in learning and just act as a malign influence on kids who have willingness to learn (but I don't know how practical such a policy would be); but practically noone buys into this Tory/Westminster narrative that the problems with our education system are caused by lazy, incompetent, "ideological" teachers.
  • "Mr Farage has studied Paddy Ashdown’s success when he led the Lib Dems to Commons seats by targeting vulnerable marginals and presenting his party as potential winners.

    After the European elections that is exactly what Ukip plans to do, to Tories, Labour and Lib Dems. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10565175/Nigel-Farage-spells-out-a-serious-message-for-Tories.html

    Thats a pretty good write up!
  • Danny565 said:

    This Tristram Hunt announcement seems to be yet another example of the Labour leadership assuming that the Westminster bubble consensus is also the consensus out there in the real world. In reality, I think this site posted polling data showing teachers were the 2nd most-respected profession, behind only doctors (and well ahead of business leaders, who the political class including Labour still bizarrely regard as deities who they can't afford to speak out against for fear of being seen as "uncredible").

    Most parents think teachers generally are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. The type of education proposal Labour could come up with which might go down well is making it easier to expel troublesome kids who have no interest whatsoever in learning and just act as a malign influence on kids who have willingness to learn (but I don't know how practical such a policy would be); but practically noone buys into this Tory/Westminster narrative that the problems with our education system are caused by lazy, incompetent, "ideological" teachers.

    I do. Well the ideological bit anyway.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Danny565 said:

    This Tristram Hunt announcement seems to be yet another example of the Labour leadership assuming that the Westminster bubble consensus is also the consensus out there in the real world. In reality, I think this site posted polling data showing teachers were the 2nd most-respected profession, behind only doctors (and well ahead of business leaders, who the political class including Labour still bizarrely regard as deities who they can't afford to speak out against for fear of being seen as "uncredible").

    Most parents think teachers generally are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. The type of education proposal Labour could come up with which might go down well is making it easier to expel troublesome kids who have no interest whatsoever in learning and just act as a malign influence on kids who have willingness to learn (but I don't know how practical such a policy would be); but practically noone buys into this Tory/Westminster narrative that the problems with our education system are caused by lazy, incompetent, "ideological" teachers.

    I do. Well the ideological bit anyway.
    I'll go +1 on that.

  • Most professions are inevitably ideological. Try suggesting to a barrister or a doctor that there should be no licensing in their respective fields.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The PGA Championship in 2011 was held at the Atlanta Athletic Club in August, and the average temperature every day was 35.5 degress Celcius, 96 fahrenheit, on a course with little or no shade. That year we memorably had 95 straight days over 95 degrees.

    Who in their right mind would hold a golf tournament in Atlanta in this sort of temperature?

    I received an email today requesting my help at the USGA US Amateur tournament, to be held at the Atlanta Athletic Club, in - you guessed it - mid-August this year.

    On one day at the 2011 event, I drank a dozen bottles of water, yet didn't hit the bathroom once. It was that brutal.
  • Most professions are inevitably ideological. Try suggesting to a barrister or a doctor that there should be no licensing in their respective fields.

    But they are not influencing the future of our children.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    This Tristram Hunt announcement seems to be yet another example of the Labour leadership assuming that the Westminster bubble consensus is also the consensus out there in the real world. In reality, I think this site posted polling data showing teachers were the 2nd most-respected profession, behind only doctors (and well ahead of business leaders, who the political class including Labour still bizarrely regard as deities who they can't afford to speak out against for fear of being seen as "uncredible").

    Most parents think teachers generally are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. The type of education proposal Labour could come up with which might go down well is making it easier to expel troublesome kids who have no interest whatsoever in learning and just act as a malign influence on kids who have willingness to learn (but I don't know how practical such a policy would be); but practically noone buys into this Tory/Westminster narrative that the problems with our education system are caused by lazy, incompetent, "ideological" teachers.

    I do. Well the ideological bit anyway.
    In what way do you think a typical teacher is ideological?
  • Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    This Tristram Hunt announcement seems to be yet another example of the Labour leadership assuming that the Westminster bubble consensus is also the consensus out there in the real world. In reality, I think this site posted polling data showing teachers were the 2nd most-respected profession, behind only doctors (and well ahead of business leaders, who the political class including Labour still bizarrely regard as deities who they can't afford to speak out against for fear of being seen as "uncredible").

    Most parents think teachers generally are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances. The type of education proposal Labour could come up with which might go down well is making it easier to expel troublesome kids who have no interest whatsoever in learning and just act as a malign influence on kids who have willingness to learn (but I don't know how practical such a policy would be); but practically noone buys into this Tory/Westminster narrative that the problems with our education system are caused by lazy, incompetent, "ideological" teachers.

    I do. Well the ideological bit anyway.
    In what way do you think a typical teacher is ideological?
    Socialist indoctrination.

    Not all of them obviously, but read through the comments of the likes of Blower to see where I am coming from. Uni lecturers are even worse.

    Free schools have enabled the less ideological ones to move away from that rubbish.
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited January 2014
    Danny565 said:

    In what way do you think a typical teacher is ideological?

    The more interesting question is how could a typical teacher not be ideological. The OED defines ideology as 'a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy'. This is of course unless one adopts a Marxist definition of ideology, for which see Gramsci, Althusser etc.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    I have to say I find posters on both sides of this debate being massively hypocritical. If Gove had suggested teachers licensing, Labourites would say how he was waging his war on teachers on another front and Tories would say he was restoring rigour to education.
This discussion has been closed.