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  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Labour infighting is welcome relief from Tory infighting, but it's the kind of argument they need to have as an opposition. I don't see why they can't be both radical and austerity-lite though...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Now much does union membership cost ? Flat fee or percentage ? And how much of that goes to Labour on?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    AndyJS said:

    "Why are English people so cold and unfriendly?

    Why are English people so cold?

    So why are the English so aloof with foreigners?"

    I'm trying to think of ways of breaking down these barriers for my wedding, otherwise it is going to be quiet English people in one group and raucous Irish in another - how to encourage mixing?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Millsy said:

    Labour infighting is welcome relief from Tory infighting, but it's the kind of argument they need to have as an opposition. I don't see why they can't be both radical and austerity-lite though...

    The GE argument will not be about lite or full fat, it will be about fairness and competence.

    Having a public fight with McLuskey will not do Ed much harm. It is important for Labour to be seen to be rejecting what he wants.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,585
    tim said:

    @JosiaJessop

    It would actually increase union membership, as many people I've talked to are put off union membership by the links with Labour.

    There are plenty of Trades Unions without links to Labour, I'm sure if they were keen they could join one of them

    It's the impression that trade unionism is pro-Labour and anti-everything else, something McCluskey's interview on R5L the other day rather perpetuated. True, that's only one union, but it is a large and vocal one.

    That interview would have done nothing to encourage people who are even remotely pro-Tory (or even pro-Lib Dem) to join Unite.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013

    Millsy said:

    Labour infighting is welcome relief from Tory infighting, but it's the kind of argument they need to have as an opposition. I don't see why they can't be both radical and austerity-lite though...

    It is important for Labour to be seen to be rejecting what he wants.
    If McClusky is doing his job properly he is saying what his members want - "standing up to the Unions" is not a cost-free exercise for Miliband.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    @Jessop.

    "But the political donations queers the relationship to a certain extent. As I've said before (and to howls of anguish from some) the unions ought to take a yearly poll of members to see which party they want the fund to go to."

    I feel very much the same about companies I hold shares in. They invariably donate to the Tories and I'm never consulted. I'd suggest a similar question put to all shareholders. 'Which political party or none' and then donate pro rata. It would be overwhelmingly 'none' which I would support
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    AndyJS said:

    "Why are English people so cold and unfriendly?

    Why are English people so cold?

    So why are the English so aloof with foreigners?"

    I'm trying to think of ways of breaking down these barriers for my wedding, otherwise it is going to be quiet English people in one group and raucous Irish in another - how to encourage mixing?
    Alcohol.

    Then discuss politics, religion and sex. Should be a memorable occasion. ;-)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,585
    TGOHF said:

    Now much does union membership cost ? Flat fee or percentage ? And how much of that goes to Labour on?

    And it's not just how much goes to the Labour Party, but how much goes in sponsorship to individual Labour MPs. Does Tim's figure include that?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    £150 a year ? Just think if you invested that over 40 years of working life - nice little nest egg.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Roger said:


    I feel very much the same about companies I hold shares in. They invariably donate to the Tories and I'm never consulted. I'd suggest a similar question put to all shareholders. 'Which political party or none' and then donate pro rata. It would be overwhelmingly 'none' which I would support

    Surely Companies are obliged to seek shareholder approval for "political donations" and this is even the case when it's not to fund a political party but for general lobbying (as they are often at pains to explain when seeking such approval).

    Which of your shareholdings have made donations to the Tories without gaining shareholder approval?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    GDP - any betting markets.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    edited April 2013
    Roger said:

    @Jessop.

    "But the political donations queers the relationship to a certain extent. As I've said before (and to howls of anguish from some) the unions ought to take a yearly poll of members to see which party they want the fund to go to."

    I feel very much the same about companies I hold shares in. They invariably donate to the Tories and I'm never consulted. I'd suggest a similar question put to all shareholders. 'Which political party or none' and then donate pro rata. It would be overwhelmingly 'none' which I would support

    Roger,
    Section 366 of the Companies Act 2006 provides:
    A company must not— .

    (a)make a political donation to a political party or other political organisation, or to an independent election candidate, or .

    (b)incur any political expenditure, .

    unless the donation or expenditure is authorised in accordance with the following provisions.

    (2)The donation or expenditure must be authorised— .

    (a)in the case of a company that is not a subsidiary of another company, by a resolution of the members of the company;

    My recollection is that this is a reenactment of provisions introduced in 2000. So any company you have invested in which makes a political donation has had the authority of its shareholders to do it.

  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900

    Millsy said:

    Labour infighting is welcome relief from Tory infighting, but it's the kind of argument they need to have as an opposition. I don't see why they can't be both radical and austerity-lite though...

    The GE argument will not be about lite or full fat, it will be about fairness and competence.

    Having a public fight with McLuskey will not do Ed much harm. It is important for Labour to be seen to be rejecting what he wants.

    Whether you agree with what the government is doing or not, or whoever you blame for the current situation, "austerity" will be with us for at least another 5 years. The unions don't accept this of course, and never will, but Miliband should be able to buy them off with suitable policies that don't cost much.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    @Carlotta

    "Which of your shareholdings have made donations to the Tories without gaining shareholder approval?"

    Every public company that has donated to the Tory Party. I know I have never been consulted or obviously I would have said no. The only shares I got rid of because of such donations and links was Hanson and Saatchi.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    AndyJS said:

    I have received one leaflet from the Conservatives. I was hoping for the other parties to distribute literature in this area as well.

    I've had one leaflet, from UKIP, a couple of weeks ago. Apart from that, the polling cards from the Local Authority and the notice on the Council noticeboard near my house, you wouldn't know there was an election imminent!

    Even a fellow CAB Trustee who is a candidate in a winnable seat simply says he can't come to a meeting tonight because he's "busy"!

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,585
    edited April 2013
    Roger said:

    @Jessop.

    "But the political donations queers the relationship to a certain extent. As I've said before (and to howls of anguish from some) the unions ought to take a yearly poll of members to see which party they want the fund to go to."

    I feel very much the same about companies I hold shares in. They invariably donate to the Tories and I'm never consulted. I'd suggest a similar question put to all shareholders. 'Which political party or none' and then donate pro rata. It would be overwhelmingly 'none' which I would support

    I'm in favour of that as well, although the block shareholding owned by many funds makes such a scheme rather pointless for small investors.

    But don't overestimate the Conservative's funding from companies. They get most of their money from individuals, with only a quarter to a fifth coming from companies. Labour also gets significant amounts from individuals.

    http://action.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/page/-/publications/Donations Report Q2 2012_2.pdf

    (edited to cover up my idiocy)
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    @ Roger, you should read the communications you receive and the report and accounts. You have a vote. If you don't like what the CO is doing vote against the report and accts or the Directors contract renewals
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Roger said:

    @Carlotta

    "Which of your shareholdings have made donations to the Tories without gaining shareholder approval?"

    Every public company that has donated to the Tory Party. I know I have never been consulted or obviously I would have said no. The only shares I got rid of because of such donations and links was Hanson and Saatchi.

    It will have been approved at one of these AGM thingies which you, like any sane person, never go to and put all the bumf relating to in the bin when it clutters your letter box.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @Roger either they broke the law or you are misremembering:


    "English law requires prior shareholder approval of political contributions to EU political parties and independent election candidates. Shareholder approval will be sought should the company decide to make political contributions within the EU.

    Political contributions are defined broadly under English law and can be argued to include contributions to "Think Tanks", funding of meetings with politicians and other activities which would not normally be considered to amount to political contributions. Expenditure in respect of any activities on the part of the company which could be deemed to influence voters during a referendum within the EU is also included."


    http://corporate.greggs.co.uk/political-donations-policy/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @JosiasJessop:

    "Over the last 11 years, the Conservatives have been dependent on donations from individuals for the majority of their funding, with companies and unincorporated associations also playing a significant role."

    "Labour have been reliant on Trade Union funding each year since 2001, but in 2011 the Unions’ share of Labour donations rose to 84%, the highest trade union share yet, as their donations have remained largely consistent but individual donations have dipped to less than a seventh of 2010 levels"
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Sitting in Brum airport departures lounge waiting for my delayed (grrrr) flight to Amsterdam and I cannot believe the amount of alcohol being necked. Gallons of the stuff in all its forms so early in the morning. Extraordinary.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Top Ten Donors to Political Parties
    Since 2001
    1. Unite the Union (Labour, £42,224,915.79, 279 donations)
    2. UNISON (Labour, £19,863,201.39, 145 donations)
    3. GMB (Labour, £16,015,996.31, 124 donations)
    4. David Sainsbury (Labour, £15,486,637.55, 61 donations)
    5. Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers (ASDAW) (Labour, £12,703,253.28, 67 donations)
    6. Communication Workers Union (CWU) (Labour, £7,726,247.50, 82 donations)
    7. Co-operative Group (CWS) Ltd (Co-operative Party, £5,422,319.06, 51 donations)
    8. Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd (Lib Dems, £5,391,345, 42 donations)
    9. Lakshmi Mittal (Labour, £5,125,000, 4 donations)
    10. Paul Getty (Conservatives, £5,000,000, 1 donation)
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    AndyJS said:

    "Why are English people so cold and unfriendly?

    Why are English people so cold?

    So why are the English so aloof with foreigners?"

    I'm trying to think of ways of breaking down these barriers for my wedding, otherwise it is going to be quiet English people in one group and raucous Irish in another - how to encourage mixing?
    Alcohol.

    Then discuss politics, religion and sex. Should be a memorable occasion. ;-)

    Why not throw in a few historical debating points to really get the party going?

  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342

    AndyJS said:

    "Why are English people so cold and unfriendly?

    Why are English people so cold?

    So why are the English so aloof with foreigners?"

    I'm trying to think of ways of breaking down these barriers for my wedding, otherwise it is going to be quiet English people in one group and raucous Irish in another - how to encourage mixing?
    Organise a drinking comp between the English and Irish, with each country choosing their weapon of choice be it lager or Guinness. then best of 3 if it is 1-all and they are still standing. Even the quiet English will defend the realm where drinking is concerned....

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm not a fan of McDonald's but this is just urgh!

    David Whipple, from Utah, had originally planned to keep the burger for two months in order to show friends how its preservatives would maintain its appearance. But, after accidentally leaving the product in his pocket for two years, Mr Whipple decided to keep the burger for even longer to see how long it could continue looking normal.

    "It wasn't on purpose," Mr Whipple told US television show The Doctors. "I was showing some people how enzymes work and I thought a hamburger would be a good idea. And I used it for a month and then forgot about it.

    "It ended up in a paper sack in the original sack with the receipt in my coat tossed in the back of my truck and it sat there for, I don't know, two or three months." However, Mr Whipple's experiment was then forgotten after the coat was tossed in a closet.

    "My wife didn't discover it until at least a year or two after that. And we pulled it out and said 'oh my gosh, I can't believe it looks the same way." Doctors on the CBS show noted that aside from the pickle disintegrating, the burger showed no signs of mould, fungus or even a strange odour.

    Mr Whipple admitted that at one point he had considered selling the burger via online auction site eBay. But, despite bids reaching close to $2,000 (£1,300), he and his family decided to keep the product for educational use. He now admits he uses the burger to convince his grandchildren not to eat junk food from restaurants such as McDonalds.

    "It's great for the grandkids to see. To see what happens with fast food," he said. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10015137/McDonalds-hamburger-looks-the-same-after-14-years.html
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    @tim

    "less than half the Unite political fund goes to Labour".

    So as you appear to be privy to both private and public accounts of Unite, please elucidate where the rest goes?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    Bizarrely, 7cm snow are forecast to fall on Leamington Spa next Tuesday night. Can't help feeling that may turn out to be wrong.
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342

    Top Ten Donors to Political Parties
    Since 2001
    1. Unite the Union (Labour, £42,224,915.79, 279 donations)
    2. UNISON (Labour, £19,863,201.39, 145 donations)
    3. GMB (Labour, £16,015,996.31, 124 donations)
    4. David Sainsbury (Labour, £15,486,637.55, 61 donations)
    5. Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers (ASDAW) (Labour, £12,703,253.28, 67 donations)
    6. Communication Workers Union (CWU) (Labour, £7,726,247.50, 82 donations)
    7. Co-operative Group (CWS) Ltd (Co-operative Party, £5,422,319.06, 51 donations)
    8. Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd (Lib Dems, £5,391,345, 42 donations)
    9. Lakshmi Mittal (Labour, £5,125,000, 4 donations)
    10. Paul Getty (Conservatives, £5,000,000, 1 donation)

    Is it still a million quid in donations gets you a knighthood or made a lord. That seemed to be the rate before......Labour correlation was pretty statistically proven as I recall.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    6 million now unemployed in Spain. That's 27% of the workforce.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758

    Sitting in Brum airport departures lounge waiting for my delayed (grrrr) flight to Amsterdam and I cannot believe the amount of alcohol being necked. Gallons of the stuff in all its forms so early in the morning. Extraordinary.

    Well, you should know when to stop yourself, otherwise you may be refused on the flight !

    Don't enjoy the 'cafe' culture too much !
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Top Ten Donors to Political Parties
    Since 2001
    1. Unite the Union (Labour, £42,224,915.79, 279 donations)
    2. UNISON (Labour, £19,863,201.39, 145 donations)
    3. GMB (Labour, £16,015,996.31, 124 donations)
    4. David Sainsbury (Labour, £15,486,637.55, 61 donations)
    5. Union of Shop Distributive and Allied Workers (ASDAW) (Labour, £12,703,253.28, 67 donations)
    6. Communication Workers Union (CWU) (Labour, £7,726,247.50, 82 donations)
    7. Co-operative Group (CWS) Ltd (Co-operative Party, £5,422,319.06, 51 donations)
    8. Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust Ltd (Lib Dems, £5,391,345, 42 donations)
    9. Lakshmi Mittal (Labour, £5,125,000, 4 donations)
    10. Paul Getty (Conservatives, £5,000,000, 1 donation)

    Is it still a million quid in donations gets you a knighthood or made a lord. That seemed to be the rate before......Labour correlation was pretty statistically proven as I recall.
    " Rajinder Loomba is the founder of the Rinku Group, a clothing company. He was made a Lib Dem member of the House of Lords in January 2011, and in the last 2 quarters he has donated £250,000."
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,525
    Interesting discussion of attitudes to foreigners. My experience in Denmark and Switzerland is that the default assumption is that you're only transiently there so they are friendly but don't really bother to get to know you. If you want to make friends, YOU have to make the effort (join clubs, ask people out, etc.), and then they respond warmly.

    Americans are largely different - they are as friendly as Labradors from the first second you meet them, or indeed by email before you've met them. It's one of the nicest things about their culture. That, too, has limits, though - to be completely accepted like everyone else you do need to become American.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Observer, do we know yet when the proposed date of the Catalan referendum is meant to be?
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Financier said:


    So as you appear to be privy to both private and public accounts of Unite, please elucidate where the rest goes?

    Everyone is privy to it - the legislation requires them to publish the accounts and lodge them with the Accreditation Officer.

    People overdo the influence of Len (and lots of other GS). If, for example, the Unite / PCS merger had come off and Mark Serwotka had become GS then he'd have had zero ability to disaffiliate Unite from Labour.

  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    Sitting in Brum airport departures lounge waiting for my delayed (grrrr) flight to Amsterdam and I cannot believe the amount of alcohol being necked. Gallons of the stuff in all its forms so early in the morning. Extraordinary.

    A large number of years ago the company I worked for sent the majority of their technical staff on a conference in Australia. After a stupidly long flight, we turned up in Sidney (I think) at about 8.00 am on Sunday morning. We were walking through the airport looking for our connecting flight when we heard raucous celebrations coming from the bar. In there we found a number of our Canadian colleagues tucking into booze, to the bemusement of the local Aussies who were all drinking coffee.

    After expressing shock at what they were doing, we asked what time they felt it was, to which they replied middle/late afternoon. We said we felt it was the same so we sat down and all had another beer!

    I doubt if this is the reason at Brum airport however :-)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,913
    @Tim

    "Eton. Oxford. Bullingdon. Journalism. Well, at least @JoJohnsonMP isn't a banker"

    Is that a typo?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    There's no reason why anyone would be able to guess it but I am pretty much as far right a Cons supporter as it is possible to be (Cons < me < UKIP).

    But what the chuffing hell are they up to appointing another Etonian (and Oxford...and...) to a high-profile position of power? Is this Lynton's work? Does BoJo have compromising pictures of Dave with Carole Thatcher?

    Please someone explain to me.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Re Stafford and Others

    Eight of the trusts investigated following the publication of a report into the “appalling” failings at Stafford Hospital were found to have “higher than expected” death rates.

    The worst figures were recorded at Blackpool Teaching Hospitals, where, in the year to October 2012, the number of deaths anticipated was 1,947 but actually there were 2,357, a difference of 410.

    Sir Bruce Keogh, the NHS medical director, said the data should be a “warning light” and prompt further investigation into potential care quality issues.

    The figures were published as it emerged that Martin Yeates and Toni Brisby, the former chief executive and chairman of Stafford Hospital, have been referred to the police for potential criminal investigation over the crisis.

    The pair were accused of committing misconduct in public office by the local authority, which claimed that they had provided false information about death rates. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10016485/Thousands-of-hospital-patients-may-have-died-needlessly-says-inquiry.html
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    New Thread
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    This will no doubt cause a fuss. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10016521/GPs-blamed-for-crisis-in-out-of-hours-health-care.html

    Jeremy Hunt will say “disastrous” changes to GPs’ working hours have led to an extra four million people attending hospitals annually, a situation he will demand is reversed. The growing pressure on hospital emergency departments is the “biggest operational challenge” facing the health service, he will warn.

    The NHS is conducting a review of out-of-hours care which may lead to GPs again taking responsibility for looking after patients outside normal working hours.

    Controversial changes to GPs’ contracts made under Labour in 2004 allowed them to opt out of treating patients outside normal office hours. The review could see that policy reversed. Mr Hunt believes there has been a “fundamental failure” by the NHS to care properly for the rising number of elderly patients struggling with long-term health conditions.

    ... This means that patients and their relations “end up having to put their energy into fighting the system instead of fighting their illness”.

    In a speech, Mr Hunt will add: “When I have been visiting A&Es in recent weeks, hard-working staff talk about the same issues: lack of beds to admit people, poor out-of-hours GP services, inaccessible primary care and a lack of coordination across the health system.

    “The decline in out-of-hours care follows the last government’s disastrous changes to the GP contract, since when we have seen four million more people using A&E every year. We must address these system failures, and I am determined we will.”
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited April 2013
    More gritted teeth:
    Stephanie Flanders: Figures are good news but also show how far UK is from re-balancing. Manufacturing and exports feeble.
    Hugh Pym: triple dip averted according to these GDP figures - 0.3% growth - though could be revised when new data comes in.
    Paul Mason: The GDP tell us that if we fix construction we could be having an actual recovery.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    testing
This discussion has been closed.