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It is a truth universally acknowledged that the most accurate poll is the one that reflects most you

24

Comments

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,809

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Have a look at my posting of theGuardian article and subsequent doscussion. Mr Goive's defence is very interestingly worded.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362
    edited April 2021

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting

    And Gove has been very careful regarding his answer to keep his answer to what happened within the meeting itself
  • Peston is reporting that the Tory Party gave a loan to the PM to pay for Downing Street refurbishment
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    TimT said:

    Interesting on Belgian law:

    "Final remedies focus on reparation through performance or restoration. If these remedies are not or no longer possible, the most common remedy is financial compensation.

    "Belgian law adheres to the principle of restitutio in integrum, which requires that the injured party be put in the position it would have been in had the damage not occurred. Punitive damages are not allowed. The injured party is entitled to full compensation of its damage, but nothing more.

    "When the exact amount of damages is difficult to determine (for example, in cases of reputational damage or violation of moral rights), the judge can award damages on an ex aequo et bono basis (that is, according to the right and good)."

    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

    Do they want AZ to compensate for the reputational damage suffered by the EU for vaccinating more slowly than its peers?
    That would open a potentially expensive countersuit
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,009
    edited April 2021
    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,883

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777

    This 42 year old just booked both first and second vax appointments on the NHS website.

    Bloody great news mate!
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826

    Peston is reporting that the Tory Party gave a loan to the PM to pay for Downing Street refurbishment

    Interest rate please.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited April 2021

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    edited April 2021

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited April 2021
    MaxPB said:

    This 42 year old just booked both first and second vax appointments on the NHS website.

    Bloody great news mate!
    Excellent news. The advertised age qualifier will surely drop to 40+ in a day or two.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,577
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    Arguably Merkel also benefitted from similarly tough decisions taken by the previous government.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    The clown is an asset at election time but an abject liability when it comes to governing effectively.

    The Tories need to decide quickly whether they want the clown in charge at the next election, or not.
  • IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited April 2021
    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Peston is reporting that the Tory Party gave a loan to the PM to pay for Downing Street refurbishment

    So Boris the Tory PM is secretly beholden to the Tory Party, is that it now?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    To top off the gift their Party was hopelessly divided, mired in sleaze, incompetent and generally out of tune with the times. So they couldn't win.
    What a kind and generous legacy indeed!
  • IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    The clown is an asset at election time but an abject liability when it comes to governing effectively.

    The Tories need to decide quickly whether they want the clown in charge at the next election, or not.
    There is plenty of time for that consideration
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    Vaccination update:

    Our GP has been dropped a fresh stash of Pfizer. Wor Lass is booked in for her second dose on Wednesday - 11 weeks after the first.

    Nice work, NHS.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    OT browser news -- the latest Chrome update has broken popups on some sites, so if you encounter this problem, try another browser. The issue is that per standards, sites are supposed to use hyphens in the names of popups but many just use the name popup, which Chrome has decided to process differently.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,633
    And the Oscar for Defending the indefensible goes to BigG.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,297
    edited April 2021

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    I think you are being a bit of a “wise monkey” there, Big G.

    Assuming he overcomes this latest round of petty dishonesties, all the evidence suggests that Boris is not far from the next toxic lie.

    Eventually - could be next week, could be next decade - his fabulism will see him fall.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,903

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    Of course Johnson is "popular with the public"... He spends all his time working for cheap instant headlines to make everybody feel good - especially himself.

    If he spent a fraction of that time facing up to the real problems the citizens of this country are facing - and even finding a solution for some of them - we would all be much better off.

    I think the main problem that we face is loss of trust in the government, and indeed in everybody in positions of authority.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    This 42 year old just booked both first and second vax appointments on the NHS website.

    Bloody great news mate!
    Excellent news. The advertised age qualifier will surely drop to 40+ in a day or two.
    Yes, it won't be long until my age group (30-34) gets called up. I'm thinking about 2 weeks from now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,297
    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    Because Boris holds public office and is expected to uphold standards in that office?

    If you don’t care about this stuff it says more about your own standards than anything else.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    Like Mercer, he would have been wise to #savethesurprise

    Nevertheless his account is a lot more credible than the clown’s.

    As you would have readily accepted, prior to your Damascus trip late in 2019.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    Yes Boris is popular but also dishonest. Whether he is a Conservative can be debated another day.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,112
    kinabalu said:

    If that Ipsos one is right I'm Sophia Loren.

    Goodness, Gracious Me !
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    This 42 year old just booked both first and second vax appointments on the NHS website.

    Bloody great news mate!
    Excellent news. The advertised age qualifier will surely drop to 40+ in a day or two.
    Yes, it won't be long until my age group (30-34) gets called up. I'm thinking about 2 weeks from now.
    Optimistic, given the overhang of second doses.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited April 2021

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    The clown is an asset at election time but an abject liability when it comes to governing effectively.

    The Tories need to decide quickly whether they want the clown in charge at the next election, or not.
    There is plenty of time for that consideration
    Only if you put the Tory Party ahead of the country.

    Read what I said. Read what you said. What other interpretation is there?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,297
    MattW said:

    kinabalu said:

    If that Ipsos one is right I'm Sophia Loren.

    Goodness, Gracious Me !
    There is an remark to be made about how much we need “one jab in the Punjab”, but it is probably in bad taste.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,096
    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    Yep, great guy, Dom. Always said so.
  • Jonathan said:

    And the Oscar for Defending the indefensible goes to BigG.

    I know you must be disappointed but really you think some alleged remark in a private office after a meeting, overhead by someone who has no evidence, is defending the indefensible than it is

    And am pleased I have impressed you

  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    I think you are being a bit of a “wise monkey” there, Big G.

    Assuming he overcomes this latest round of petty dishonesties, all the evidence suggests that Boris is not far from the next toxic lie.

    Eventually - could be next week, could be next decade - his fabulism will see him fall.
    I am not disagreeing with you but it has to be something better than we heard in the HOC today
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    I simply don't get Cummings' play here. What does he expect to get out of fighting back? What potential client would want to hire him now, given this behaviour, regardless of the rights of his position?

    Is he acting simply out of ego and righteous anger? Because there does not seem to be any logic that would see this course of action helps Cummings in any way.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    This 42 year old just booked both first and second vax appointments on the NHS website.

    Bloody great news mate!
    Excellent news. The advertised age qualifier will surely drop to 40+ in a day or two.
    Yes, it won't be long until my age group (30-34) gets called up. I'm thinking about 2 weeks from now.
    Optimistic, given the overhang of second doses.
    That moves mostly to AZ now with Pfizer and Moderna available for first doses plus Novavax at some point very soon.
  • ClippP said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    Of course Johnson is "popular with the public"... He spends all his time working for cheap instant headlines to make everybody feel good - especially himself.

    If he spent a fraction of that time facing up to the real problems the citizens of this country are facing - and even finding a solution for some of them - we would all be much better off.

    I think the main problem that we face is loss of trust in the government, and indeed in everybody in positions of authority.
    You do not get any better than a world class vaccine rollout to the British people saving lives and opening the economy much earlier than was expected

    And ending the ESL
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited April 2021
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    Will Rogerdamus strike again? Johnson rule for the next 35 years confirmed?
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    Like Mercer, he would have been wise to #savethesurprise

    Nevertheless his account is a lot more credible than the clown’s.

    As you would have readily accepted, prior to your Damascus trip late in 2019.
    No according to the public who back Boris at 22% and Cummings at 16%

    Mind you 46% do not believe either
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    The clown is an asset at election time but an abject liability when it comes to governing effectively.

    The Tories need to decide quickly whether they want the clown in charge at the next election, or not.
    There is plenty of time for that consideration
    Only if you put the Tory Party ahead of the country.

    Read what I said. Read what you said. What other interpretation is there?
    Your first sentence is assumed that the conservative party is not good for the country and on that I disagree
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,866
    Evening all :)

    A fascinating re-imagining of the events of 1997 from some presumably too young to have experienced that more interesting period in British politics.

    The events of what some called "Black" Wednesday and Andrew Neil always called "White" Wednesday destroyed in one day the Conservative asset of sound economic management. It was analogous to the 1967 Devaluation - it brought the Conservatives down to Labour's level and in truth they never recovered.

    In 1995 the Conservatives lost 2000 Councillors in a single night - that foreshadowed the events of 1997.

    Would it have been the same had Smith lived? We'll never so but Blair went further and by 1997 he had convinced millions of former Conservative voters the Labour Party he led was a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left and whether via a direct change of vote or by voting for the LDs or staying at home, the Conservative vote which had so strongly propelled Major to victory in 1992 withered away.

    There were Conservatives, who, despite the local election losses, couldn't believe what was happening, People weren't slamming doors on Tory canvassers or setting the dog on anyone delivering a Tory leaflet - no, they smiled politely and knifed the Conservative Party the only place that mattered - in the polling booth.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited April 2021

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    Into the 2030s I think.

    The only pressure to move this PM is if it looks like the opposition can win a GE from about 18 months out, when you factor in how far behind in seats realistic coalition government is, how opposition parties will neatly divid up votes with each other not take them from Boris.

    The vaccination programme beat COVID. It saved UK lives and economy. It put BREXIT Britain leading the world as promised. And it was all down to Boris and his government making decisions on vaccine procurement and jab logistics - the key decision being not to allow NHS to do it.

    Meanwhile the opposition parties wanted us in the EU in the same vaccine scheme as Brussels, lives lost, businesses lost. Does any opposition party seriously expect a vote for them in the next 9 years?

    When Mystic Rose said the vaccination programme is the most marvellous achievement of any UK government in decades ensures Boris is re elected she took stick, but she was just more ahead of game than rest of you. As she normally is. If I funded a free school I would make her head.

    This PM and government is exactly what the electorate have been wanting for decades. They are doing a good job.

    Someone with a bin on his head has more character the the leader of the opposition.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    ClippP said:

    I think the main problem that we face is loss of trust in the government, and indeed in everybody in positions of authority.

    Well, yes. They have demonstrated they are all lying, incompetent little shits. It’s not easy to trust such people.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited April 2021

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.

    > chatting with the only poll worker at a polling places in Devises constituency, was there for maybe half and hour, no voters showed up in that interval but a bobbie did, and joked about how UK wasn't Florida; of course that was in the good old days before BJ turned No. 10 into Mar-el-Lardo East.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.
    Foot and Mouth, not Mad Cow.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,032
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    Bill Clinton I think comes close.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.
    Foot and Mouth, not Mad Cow.
    I stand corrected - thanks. (I get your meat-related public-health emergencies mixed up.)
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    Someone mentioned that John Major got the most votes of any party leader ever. Mad as I am I decided to come up with a little table of the best vote shares achieved by each Labour and Tory leader at an election since 1945 ranking them 1 to 21. Prepare for some surprises.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.
    Foot and Mouth, not Mad Cow.
    I stand corrected - thanks. (I get your meat-related public-health emergencies mixed up.)
    Live in the big city (sort of) but am still a country boy at heart. So was (and still am) very sorry for the farmers & other who lost and suffered so much.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,542
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    I think the main problem that we face is loss of trust in the government, and indeed in everybody in positions of authority.

    Well, yes. They have demonstrated they are all lying, incompetent little shits. It’s not easy to trust such people.
    Rather harsh on in Truss we Trust....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    TimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    I simply don't get Cummings' play here. What does he expect to get out of fighting back? What potential client would want to hire him now, given this behaviour, regardless of the rights of his position?

    Is he acting simply out of ego and righteous anger? Because there does not seem to be any logic that would see this course of action helps Cummings in any way.
    Book deal?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    edited April 2021

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.
    Foot and Mouth, not Mad Cow.
    I stand corrected - thanks. (I get your meat-related public-health emergencies mixed up.)
    ‘Mad Cow Disease’ (which the Americans call ‘Staggers’) isn’t infectious. So you wouldn’t have needed to disinfect your shoes to control an outbreak.

    FMD, on the other hand, is highly infectious and spreads through fomites as well. It was a disease that ran riot in 2001 first by the failure of a dodgy meat plant to boil their swill properly, second by the EU subsidy system that meant infected pigs were being hurriedly passed from farm to farm, and exacerbated by the gross incompetence of MAFF/DEFRA under first Nick Brown and then Beckett, who had no clue what they were doing (and showed no signs of learning lessons either).

    The election may have been boring but to me, living in a farming area, the background was anything but.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,883

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    So was Gerald Ratner until he wasn't. It takes a while for these things to filter through. The only interesting question is Gove's involvement. He was the most devious leaker in the party. Everything he does has a motive. His denial tonight is the death knell for Johnson! It won't be instant. People aren't that interested in politics. Remember Read or listen to Peter Oborne presently on Channel 4. About as damning as it gets
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    1997 was my first general election and I voted Tory.

    I'll always remember it, I was doing my A Levels at the time (a time when A Levels were hard), whilst my focus was on my exams I took a very deep interest in the election, I was expecting a Labour majority of 100, I wasn't expecting one closer to 200.

    I was up for Portillo, I was up when the Tories were wiped out in Scotland & Wales, I was up for when my own rock solid Tory seat went to the yellow peril.

    It had a profound impact on me.
    2001 was my first election, nothing could have been more boring than that one.
    You got that right, bro!

    The 2001 GE was the only British election to occur when yours truly was actually in the UK. (Obviously some issues with border security even back then!) Sadly, it was dull as dishwater.

    Among the very few items to relieve the boredom:

    > seeing John Prescott decking the punk who threw the egg at him (saw this on TV before leaving).

    > listening to Charles Kennedy being interviewed on the radio while cruising about England's green & pleasant land; what a great voice and he had a great election that year.

    > looking longingly at pictures of ffion Hague which was about the only positive thing about her hubby's hapless death march of a campaign.

    > trying to keep my distance from flocks of sheep, in the midst of the Mad Cow crisis, and wading though MANY troughs of disinfectant visiting sites along Hadrian's Wall.
    Foot and Mouth, not Mad Cow.
    I stand corrected - thanks. (I get your meat-related public-health emergencies mixed up.)
    ‘Mad Cow Disease’ (which the Americans call ‘Staggers’) isn’t infectious. So you wouldn’t have needed to disinfect your shoes to control an outbreak.

    FMD, on the other hand, is highly infectious and spreads through fomites as well. It was a disease that ran riot in 2001 first by the failure of a dodgy meat plant to boil their swill properly, second by the EU subsidy system that meant infected pigs were being hurriedly passed from farm to farm, and exacerbated by the gross incompetence of DEFRA under first Nick Brown and then Beckett, who had no clue what they were doing (and showed no signs of learning lessons either).

    The election may have been boring but to me, living in a farming area, the background was anything but.
    It was heartbreaking. Cruising around rural England (my strategy when driving in Britain is to avoid cities & even sizable towns as much as humanly possible) it looked serene - except for signs everywhere and constant news & talk on the radio.

    Some of the places I wanted to visit were closed. And on one occasion changed my route, because the side road I planned to take was marked "please don't drive here" by the locals.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    TimT said:

    Interesting on Belgian law:

    "Final remedies focus on reparation through performance or restoration. If these remedies are not or no longer possible, the most common remedy is financial compensation.

    "Belgian law adheres to the principle of restitutio in integrum, which requires that the injured party be put in the position it would have been in had the damage not occurred. Punitive damages are not allowed. The injured party is entitled to full compensation of its damage, but nothing more.

    "When the exact amount of damages is difficult to determine (for example, in cases of reputational damage or violation of moral rights), the judge can award damages on an ex aequo et bono basis (that is, according to the right and good)."

    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

    Do they want AZ to compensate for the reputational damage suffered by the EU for vaccinating more slowly than its peers?
    They want a distraction.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The European Commission - the EU's executive branch - said it was suing the company for not respecting its vaccine supply contract, and for not having a "reliable" plan to ensure timely deliveries.

    AstraZeneca said the move was "without merit".

    It said it would "strongly defend itself in court".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56891326

    This has turned into the international equivalent of when you hear those stories of two neighbours who has a falling out and before you know it they are burning down each others gardens.

    Having seen the contracts, I would be very surprised if it actually got anywhere near a court of law. My guess is that there will be a "symbolic" victory where the EU announces that they have won. When, in fact, all they have done is pissed off an entity who might otherwise have made significant investments in the bloc.
    The case is being brought in Belgium before Belgian courts. Is this as stipulated in the contract, Robert?

    Does anyone know how such cases typically proceed in Belgium - does it follow pretty much the same course as we'd expect in the US and UK, or is it completely different?
    The contract stipulates Belgium, but I don't think that's really relevant here. The reality is that this case wouldn't come to court for some time, and what the EU wants to do is to declare victory. Announcing you're suing, then announcing that AZ has "folded" is a PR win.

    It is also spectacularly short-sighted. But we've seen a lot of spectacularly short-sighted stuff from the EU in the last 12 months.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.

    Well, if the report is right then Boris thinks we should care, else this all would have been cleared up, in the open, before now.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Interesting on Belgian law:

    "Final remedies focus on reparation through performance or restoration. If these remedies are not or no longer possible, the most common remedy is financial compensation.

    "Belgian law adheres to the principle of restitutio in integrum, which requires that the injured party be put in the position it would have been in had the damage not occurred. Punitive damages are not allowed. The injured party is entitled to full compensation of its damage, but nothing more.

    "When the exact amount of damages is difficult to determine (for example, in cases of reputational damage or violation of moral rights), the judge can award damages on an ex aequo et bono basis (that is, according to the right and good)."

    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

    Do they want AZ to compensate for the reputational damage suffered by the EU for vaccinating more slowly than its peers?
    They want a distraction.
    Yes. There is no real interest in compensation, only in being seen to have bested an evil corporation that sold to other people (who paid more for early access) before the EU.

    Which is why it will be settled for a nominal sum long before any laundry is aired in public.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    Arguably Merkel also benefitted from similarly tough decisions taken by the previous government.
    Yes, the Schroeder labour market reforms were copied wholesale from the UK. Merkel benefited hugely from taking over at a time when the German labour market had just been liberalised.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,110
    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.

    It's much less concerning that the Tory party made the loan than, say, a Russian oligarch or Sanjeev Gupta. After all one expects the PM to be in hock to his party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Interesting on Belgian law:

    "Final remedies focus on reparation through performance or restoration. If these remedies are not or no longer possible, the most common remedy is financial compensation.

    "Belgian law adheres to the principle of restitutio in integrum, which requires that the injured party be put in the position it would have been in had the damage not occurred. Punitive damages are not allowed. The injured party is entitled to full compensation of its damage, but nothing more.

    "When the exact amount of damages is difficult to determine (for example, in cases of reputational damage or violation of moral rights), the judge can award damages on an ex aequo et bono basis (that is, according to the right and good)."

    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

    Do they want AZ to compensate for the reputational damage suffered by the EU for vaccinating more slowly than its peers?
    They want a distraction.
    Yes. There is no real interest in compensation, only in being seen to have bested an evil corporation that sold to other people (who paid more for early access) before the EU.

    Which is why it will be settled for a nominal sum long before any laundry is aired in public.
    Quite. It's pretty blatant really, since what is the main gripe? That AZ did not provide enough doses on time (has anyone, though them particularly I suppose). Would a lawsuit change the flow of time to change that? No. So its not about making them deliver on their promises, since that's impossible. Nor is it about delivering in future, since they don't seem to care about receiving or using much of the AZ stock. So PR it is.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,883
    TimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    I simply don't get Cummings' play here. What does he expect to get out of fighting back? What potential client would want to hire him now, given this behaviour, regardless of the rights of his position?

    Is he acting simply out of ego and righteous anger? Because there does not seem to be any logic that would see this course of action helps Cummings in any way.
    Hell hath no fury.....you're seeing it from an American perspective. Money is rarely a motivator for those who aren't short of it in the UK. He's got every right to be pissed off with Johnson and from all we know of him he won't give up till he's got his revenge. And he's very good at the art of persuasion. Very good. He makes Steve Hilton look flat footed and ordinary.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Interesting BBC headline of 'PM said bodies "could pile high" instead of lockdown', even as in the story they are clear he has denied it. Would have been very easy to say something about it being claimed he said it, or even lead with 'PM denies "pile bodies high" comment'. Suggests they must be confident in it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,112
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    Interesting on Belgian law:

    "Final remedies focus on reparation through performance or restoration. If these remedies are not or no longer possible, the most common remedy is financial compensation.

    "Belgian law adheres to the principle of restitutio in integrum, which requires that the injured party be put in the position it would have been in had the damage not occurred. Punitive damages are not allowed. The injured party is entitled to full compensation of its damage, but nothing more.

    "When the exact amount of damages is difficult to determine (for example, in cases of reputational damage or violation of moral rights), the judge can award damages on an ex aequo et bono basis (that is, according to the right and good)."

    https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-013-2762?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true

    Do they want AZ to compensate for the reputational damage suffered by the EU for vaccinating more slowly than its peers?
    They want a distraction.
    It's approximately Phase 9 of Operation Arsecover.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    gealbhan said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    Give it time.....Boris Johnson's duplicity and dishonesty was known to every Tory MP. It's all there in Alan Duncan's book. You can go round with a fire extinguisher all you like until it become out of control but it seems a terrible waste of time. He's a wrong 'un and it's only a matter of time until Tory voters get their moral compasses back and he's out on his ear.
    No fire extinguishers needed

    Boris is popular with the ordinary public and the so called educated Metropolitan elite just cannot accept that their self appointed 'we know better than you' is not cutting through or is the best way to persuade them to back your case

    Of course Boris will go at sometime as all political careers end, but he may be there to irritate you for some time yet
    Into the 2030s I think.

    The only pressure to move this PM is if it looks like the opposition can win a GE from about 18 months out, when you factor in how far behind in seats realistic coalition government is, how opposition parties will neatly divid up votes with each other not take them from Boris.

    The vaccination programme beat COVID. It saved UK lives and economy. It put BREXIT Britain leading the world as promised. And it was all down to Boris and his government making decisions on vaccine procurement and jab logistics - the key decision being not to allow NHS to do it.

    Meanwhile the opposition parties wanted us in the EU in the same vaccine scheme as Brussels, lives lost, businesses lost. Does any opposition party seriously expect a vote for them in the next 9 years?

    When Mystic Rose said the vaccination programme is the most marvellous achievement of any UK government in decades ensures Boris is re elected she took stick, but she was just more ahead of game than rest of you. As she normally is. If I funded a free school I would make her head.

    This PM and government is exactly what the electorate have been wanting for decades. They are doing a good job.

    Someone with a bin on his head has more character the the leader of the opposition.
    Did Mysticrose elope with Byronic? They deserved each other, and would have been truly happy, making such absurd wide of the mark predictions to each other until the end of time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    TimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Roger said:

    'I'd rather see bodies piled high than call for another lockdown' said Boris

    I don't think I've ever loved a SPAD more! Keep 'em coming Dom!

    In the first place that was not said at the alleged meeting as Gove confirmed on the record today in the HOC

    and secondly the reporting of it is not attributed to Cummings

    And as far as the public are concerned 46% do not believe Boris or Cummings

    And

    A third of Britons are closely following the story around Dominic Cummings and his allegations about Boris Johnson’s conduct as PM

    Following very/fairly closely - 34%
    Not following closely - 27%
    Aware but not following - 26%
    Not aware at all - 12%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/04/26/3548c/1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=daily_questions&utm_campaign=question_1
    At no point has anyone said it was said within the meeting - Boris is reported to have said it while in his own office after the meeting
    This is becoming surreal.

    So it was not in the meeting now, but some alleged throw away comment in his private office

    This is scrapping the barrel time
    Not really.

    Any reasonably well informed person, looking at the evidence, would conclude that the clown made the comment in private, but was overheard through an open door, whereas Gove has been careful to limit his denial to comments made at the formal meeting that took place separately.

    The clown is relying upon Cummo having a credibility problem, ironically arising from the fabricated defence he cooked up with Downing Street to get him off the Barnard Castle accusations. Neither of them have any track record as truthtellers, but Cummo does have the advantage of having a lot of recorded evidence at his disposal.
    46% of the public do not believe either of them

    And of course if Cummings had been wise he would not have given forewarning of his intent on the 26th May

    But he is not wise
    I simply don't get Cummings' play here. What does he expect to get out of fighting back? What potential client would want to hire him now, given this behaviour, regardless of the rights of his position?

    Is he acting simply out of ego and righteous anger? Because there does not seem to be any logic that would see this course of action helps Cummings in any way.
    Cummings always seemed to value himself far more than his boss. Whatever one thinks of him, or Boris, that does make him seem particularly ill suited to be an adviser, knowing he will not take flak and go quietly in the first place, and that he will be recording things and making notes to screw his employers later if he feels it warranted.

    It's be like hiring a firefighter who wouldn't put himself at risk by running into a burning building. And who was also an arsonist.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,577
    Ursula von der Leyen on the missing chair incident:

    President @VonDerLeyen has strong words about #SofaGate in a discussion at EU Parliament - while President Michel is sitting next to her (he has still not really apologised for remaining seated in Ankara).

    "This just shows us why we need more women in positions of power"

    "I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission,"

    "I am the president of the European Commission and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago - like a Commission president. But I was not."

    "I cannot find any justification for what I was treated in the European treaties,"

    "So i have to conclude that it happened because I am a woman. Would this have happened if I had worn a suit and a tie?"

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1386711626540371976
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    rcs1000 said:

    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.

    It's much less concerning that the Tory party made the loan than, say, a Russian oligarch or Sanjeev Gupta. After all one expects the PM to be in hock to his party.
    Well maybe, but what if the party was just the intermediary for the oligarchs!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:
    Don't worry about a worldwide pandemic, worry about who paid for the wallpaper in flat, thats much more important.
    As I said in the other thread, you're clearly missing the point deliberately.

    Either there are rules about pseudo political donations to avoid allegations of undue influence and conflicts of interest that apply equally, or there are not.

    Boris knows the rules so there's no excuse.

    If you want a free for all on political donations, feel free to argue that, but otherwise Boris, as Prime Minister, should follow the rules.

    I make no comment on the seriousness of the matter, but he should still follow the rules.
    Boris Johnson follow the rules? Don't make us larf!

    Might as well ask BoJo's soulmate Trumpsky to follow the rules. Two rotten peas in a toxic pod.
    Nah, Boris was too lazy to even mildly fiddle his taxes.
    Do other PBers believe that Boris Johnson is innocent of having "fiddled with his taxes" or (like Trumpsky) getting someone to do it for him?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    Ursula von der Leyen on the missing chair incident:

    President @VonDerLeyen has strong words about #SofaGate in a discussion at EU Parliament - while President Michel is sitting next to her (he has still not really apologised for remaining seated in Ankara).

    "This just shows us why we need more women in positions of power"

    "I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission,"

    "I am the president of the European Commission and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago - like a Commission president. But I was not."

    "I cannot find any justification for what I was treated in the European treaties,"

    "So i have to conclude that it happened because I am a woman. Would this have happened if I had worn a suit and a tie?"

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1386711626540371976
    There is such a thing as playing the victim too hard, even when you are the victim.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350
    edited April 2021

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Peston is reporting that the Tory Party gave a loan to the PM to pay for Downing Street refurbishment

    So some wealthy benefactors donated cash to the Tory Party in order for the Party to lend it to Johnson on very reasonable terms.Hmmm?

    To be honest, I couldn't really care a great deal over the profligate and ostentatious decoration of Number 11 Downing Street, although I am quite enjoying the spectacle ofJohnson squirming like he has a rectum full of haemorrhoids.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,361
    kle4 said:

    Interesting BBC headline of 'PM said bodies "could pile high" instead of lockdown', even as in the story they are clear he has denied it. Would have been very easy to say something about it being claimed he said it, or even lead with 'PM denies "pile bodies high" comment'. Suggests they must be confident in it.

    There’s a very different emphasis in what the BBC report and what the Mail reported which would be far more damaging.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    Ursula von der Leyen on the missing chair incident:

    President @VonDerLeyen has strong words about #SofaGate in a discussion at EU Parliament - while President Michel is sitting next to her (he has still not really apologised for remaining seated in Ankara).

    "This just shows us why we need more women in positions of power"

    "I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission,"

    "I am the president of the European Commission and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago - like a Commission president. But I was not."

    "I cannot find any justification for what I was treated in the European treaties,"

    "So i have to conclude that it happened because I am a woman. Would this have happened if I had worn a suit and a tie?"

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1386711626540371976
    I think it's because they have five or something presidents. Putting one chair was likely deliberate, but they didn't force Charles Michel to pounce on it as soon as he saw it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.

    It's much less concerning that the Tory party made the loan than, say, a Russian oligarch or Sanjeev Gupta. After all one expects the PM to be in hock to his party.
    Well maybe, but what if the party was just the intermediary for the oligarchs!
    Isn't that what they call "pass through"? Very common in political circles.

    Big donor give donation earmarked for specific purpose, which is NOT disclosed, except that the money ends up where it was intended to end up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:
    Don't worry about a worldwide pandemic, worry about who paid for the wallpaper in flat, thats much more important.
    As I said in the other thread, you're clearly missing the point deliberately.

    Either there are rules about pseudo political donations to avoid allegations of undue influence and conflicts of interest that apply equally, or there are not.

    Boris knows the rules so there's no excuse.

    If you want a free for all on political donations, feel free to argue that, but otherwise Boris, as Prime Minister, should follow the rules.

    I make no comment on the seriousness of the matter, but he should still follow the rules.
    Boris Johnson follow the rules? Don't make us larf!

    Might as well ask BoJo's soulmate Trumpsky to follow the rules. Two rotten peas in a toxic pod.
    Nah, Boris was too lazy to even mildly fiddle his taxes.
    Do other PBers believe that Boris Johnson is innocent of having "fiddled with his taxes" or (like Trumpsky) getting someone to do it for him?

    I was referring to when he was challenged to release his tax returns by Livingstone, showing he had not, as far as I recall, employed common tax avoidance techniques as Ken had alleged.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    Ursula von der Leyen on the missing chair incident:

    President @VonDerLeyen has strong words about #SofaGate in a discussion at EU Parliament - while President Michel is sitting next to her (he has still not really apologised for remaining seated in Ankara).

    "This just shows us why we need more women in positions of power"

    "I am the first woman to be president of the European Commission,"

    "I am the president of the European Commission and this is how I expected to be treated when visiting Turkey two weeks ago - like a Commission president. But I was not."

    "I cannot find any justification for what I was treated in the European treaties,"

    "So i have to conclude that it happened because I am a woman. Would this have happened if I had worn a suit and a tie?"

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1386711626540371976
    Yes. That is the protocol. If she can’t find it in the Treaties, that’s because she either hasn’t read them or is too dense to understand them.

    The difference being, her predecessors didn’t make such a fecking song and dance about it.

    Is anyone else reminded of Little Britain by her ‘first woman to be President’ remark?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    So the opposite of Cherie, a firebrand, Scouse socialist married to a Tory.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Interesting BBC headline of 'PM said bodies "could pile high" instead of lockdown', even as in the story they are clear he has denied it. Would have been very easy to say something about it being claimed he said it, or even lead with 'PM denies "pile bodies high" comment'. Suggests they must be confident in it.

    There’s a very different emphasis in what the BBC report and what the Mail reported which would be far more damaging.
    Except I don't think most people seeing the former will actually think much differently to those seeing the latter. The broad strokes, and what he will be accused of saying, will stick even if there is quite a difference between the precise nature of the comments.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    1. John Major – 14,093,007 (1992)
    2. Boris Johnson – 13,966,454 (2019)
    3. Clement Attlee – 13,948,385 (1951)
    4. Margaret Thatcher – 13,760,583 (1987)
    5. Harold MacMillan – 13,750,875 (1959)
    6. Winston Churchill – 13,717,851 (1951)
    7. Theresa May – 13,636,684 (2017)
    8. Tony Blair – 13,518,167 (1997)
    9. Anthony Eden – 13,310,891 (1955)
    10. Edward Heath – 13,145,123 (1970)
    11. Harold Wilson – 13,096,951 (1966)
    12. Jeremy Corbyn – 12,878,460 (2017)
    13. Hugh Gaitskell – 12,216,172 (1959)
    14. Alec Douglas Hume – 12,002,642 (1964)
    15. Neil Kinnock – 11,560,484 (1992)
    16. James Callaghan – 11,532,218 (1979)
    17. David Cameron – 11,334,226 (2015)
    18. Edward Miliband – 9,347,273 (2015)
    19. Michael Howard – 8,784,915 (2005)
    20. Gordon Brown – 8,609,527 (2010)
    21. Michael Foot – 8.456,934 (1983)
    22. William Hague - 8,357,615 (2001)

    Consider that the Liberals way back in Feb 1974 attracted over 6,000,000 votes, and the scandalous iniquity of our crooked voting system is very clear.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    The golden legacy being the complete collapse of Conservative economic policy.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    Thanks for spelling note.

    As for Violet Attlee, while it's well-attested she was a Conservative (just as Clemmie Churchill was a Liberal) don't think there's any evidence she was "active" in sense of being a Conservative Party activist or public supporter (same with Mrs C on the Lib side).
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited April 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    ping said:

    I don’t understand why it matters that the Tory party gave Boris a loan for his renovation.

    Why should we care?

    He’s a big fat liar. We already knew that.

    It doesn’t matter.

    It's much less concerning that the Tory party made the loan than, say, a Russian oligarch or Sanjeev Gupta. After all one expects the PM to be in hock to his party.
    So you are cunningly drawing attention to how the Tory party is funded.

    Is it pure untainted Tory money, or are they a laundering exercise?

    I think this is where it’s going isn’t it? It’s all some cunning hot d’eurve to calling party funding sleazy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:
    Don't worry about a worldwide pandemic, worry about who paid for the wallpaper in flat, thats much more important.
    As I said in the other thread, you're clearly missing the point deliberately.

    Either there are rules about pseudo political donations to avoid allegations of undue influence and conflicts of interest that apply equally, or there are not.

    Boris knows the rules so there's no excuse.

    If you want a free for all on political donations, feel free to argue that, but otherwise Boris, as Prime Minister, should follow the rules.

    I make no comment on the seriousness of the matter, but he should still follow the rules.
    Boris Johnson follow the rules? Don't make us larf!

    Might as well ask BoJo's soulmate Trumpsky to follow the rules. Two rotten peas in a toxic pod.
    Nah, Boris was too lazy to even mildly fiddle his taxes.
    Do other PBers believe that Boris Johnson is innocent of having "fiddled with his taxes" or (like Trumpsky) getting someone to do it for him?

    I was referring to when he was challenged to release his tax returns by Livingstone, showing he had not, as far as I recall, employed common tax avoidance techniques as Ken had alleged.
    While Livingstone paid himself through a company, avoiding a lot of tax. Quite ironic really.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    So the opposite of Cherie, a firebrand, Scouse socialist married to a Tory.
    Sorry for the fake news, Cherie was a firebrand Manc socialist.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,777
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The European Commission - the EU's executive branch - said it was suing the company for not respecting its vaccine supply contract, and for not having a "reliable" plan to ensure timely deliveries.

    AstraZeneca said the move was "without merit".

    It said it would "strongly defend itself in court".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56891326

    This has turned into the international equivalent of when you hear those stories of two neighbours who has a falling out and before you know it they are burning down each others gardens.

    Having seen the contracts, I would be very surprised if it actually got anywhere near a court of law. My guess is that there will be a "symbolic" victory where the EU announces that they have won. When, in fact, all they have done is pissed off an entity who might otherwise have made significant investments in the bloc.
    The case is being brought in Belgium before Belgian courts. Is this as stipulated in the contract, Robert?

    Does anyone know how such cases typically proceed in Belgium - does it follow pretty much the same course as we'd expect in the US and UK, or is it completely different?
    The contract stipulates Belgium, but I don't think that's really relevant here. The reality is that this case wouldn't come to court for some time, and what the EU wants to do is to declare victory. Announcing you're suing, then announcing that AZ has "folded" is a PR win.

    It is also spectacularly short-sighted. But we've seen a lot of spectacularly short-sighted stuff from the EU in the last 12 months.
    Yes, and they're paying for it, the Pfizer contract for their 2022/23 1.8bn doses comes in at ~$50bn and Pfizer are charging over and above due to the EU asking for majority domestic supply chains.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    So the opposite of Cherie, a firebrand, Scouse socialist married to a Tory.
    Yeah, Cherie was such a firebrand socialist that she got in hot water over wonky property dealings IIRC.

    Plus she was as epic a PR disaster as Nancy Reagan, but without the later's redeeming qualifies (most notably fierce loyalty to her hubby - just ask the ghosts of Al Haig and Don Regan!)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,846

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    Thanks for spelling note.

    As for Violet Attlee, while it's well-attested she was a Conservative (just as Clemmie Churchill was a Liberal) don't think there's any evidence she was "active" in sense of being a Conservative Party activist or public supporter (same with Mrs C on the Lib side).
    As well as Clementine Churchill, Winston was a Liberal MP when they married and would serve as a minister in Liberal governments.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    Thanks for spelling note.

    As for Violet Attlee, while it's well-attested she was a Conservative (just as Clemmie Churchill was a Liberal) don't think there's any evidence she was "active" in sense of being a Conservative Party activist or public supporter (same with Mrs C on the Lib side).
    As well as Clementine Churchill, Winston was a Liberal MP when they married and would serve as a minister in Liberal governments.
    Yeah, but my point is that neither Mrs Attlee or Mrs Churchill were political ACTIVISTS. There personal politics were private, not public.

    And rarely seem to have much affected their husbands' views on public policy.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    and now for the lighter side of the news . . .

    Politico.com - Cuomo offers blanket denial of harassment allegations

    New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo has fiercely denied allegations of sexual harassment leveled at him over the past several months during his first in-person Q&A with press since late last year.

    The governor was asked Monday about the multiple scandals and investigations that have enveloped his administration during an event at the Fairgrounds outside of Syracuse after he announced that the State Fair will reopen this summer at 50 percent capacity. Cuomo denied the allegations of several women who have accused him of behavior ranging from inappropriate comments to groping.

    “To put it very simply ‘no,’” he said, when asked if the reports were true.

    When asked if he would resign if a forthcoming investigation from state Attorney General Tish James’ office finds evidence otherwise, Cuomo said that would not be the case.

    “The report can’t say anything different because I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said. . . .
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    So the opposite of Cherie, a firebrand, Scouse socialist married to a Tory.
    Yeah, Cherie was such a firebrand socialist that she got in hot water over wonky property dealings IIRC.
    And happy hour shopping trips. Don’t forget those.

    So from every point of view, she was the perfect socialist.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Fishing said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    What's quite striking is that all the people opining firmly that these possible Johnson scandals are small beer and a distraction from what's important seem to be tory partisans!

    Well they are the ones that matter.

    If you start to see Tory partisans turn against Boris (and I don't mean the ones who've always been against him) then the story is damaging.

    In Theresa May's dying days Tory after Tory were unwilling to back her here.
    I think even the Blair Landslide of 1997 was partly a result of many tories sitting on their hands, correct?
    Yup, something like the Tories lost 4 and a half million between 1992 and 1997 and only 2 million went to other parties, and 2 and a half million Tories stayed at home.
    Voting Tory in 1997 was pretty hardcore. The government had barely been in power since 1992 and looked tired, corrupt and somewhat over provided with complete arseholes. There was very little to like about it. I think I did vote Tory because I always vote but enthusiasm levels were rock bottom.
    Indeed. What is interesting though is Ken Clark was doing an amazing job as chancellor. Labour enjoyed a golden early period partly because of his efforts, which were just coming to fruition as the election became due.

    A year later, and the defeat might not have been so bad. Indeed, Clark could have started to share the fruits of his recovery early. As I remember, he decided not to.

    That's right: has any government inherited a legacy as golden as that left by Major and Clarke?
    Bill Clinton I think comes close.
    Yes, Clinton left Bush a bountiful economy and massive surplus. And he did it without running down public services to breaking point like Major/Clarke did.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    1. John Major – 14,093,007 (1992)
    2. Boris Johnson – 13,966,454 (2019)
    3. Clement Attlee – 13,948,385 (1951)
    4. Margaret Thatcher – 13,760,583 (1987)
    5. Harold MacMillan – 13,750,875 (1959)
    6. Winston Churchill – 13,717,851 (1951)
    7. Theresa May – 13,636,684 (2017)
    8. Tony Blair – 13,518,167 (1997)
    9. Anthony Eden – 13,310,891 (1955)
    10. Edward Heath – 13,145,123 (1970)
    11. Harold Wilson – 13,096,951 (1966)
    12. Jeremy Corbyn – 12,878,460 (2017)
    13. Hugh Gaitskell – 12,216,172 (1959)
    14. Alec Douglas Hume – 12,002,642 (1964)
    15. Neil Kinnock – 11,560,484 (1992)
    16. James Callaghan – 11,532,218 (1979)
    17. David Cameron – 11,334,226 (2015)
    18. Edward Miliband – 9,347,273 (2015)
    19. Michael Howard – 8,784,915 (2005)
    20. Gordon Brown – 8,609,527 (2010)
    21. Michael Foot – 8.456,934 (1983)
    22. William Hague - 8,357,615 (2001)

    Those are some big constituencies there.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,540
    edited April 2021
    CA -1


    "Dave Wasserman
    @Redistrict
    BREAKING: new Census apportionment counts...

    TX +2
    FL +1
    CO, MT, NC, OR +1

    CA, IL, MI, NY, OH, PA, WV -1"

    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1386760864267649032
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,350

    ydoethur said:

    With respect to back-stairs influence in British politics, how do PBers think that Carrie Symonds ranks compared with:

    > Cherie Blair
    > Dennis Thatcher
    > Clementine Churchill
    > Francis Stevenson
    > Sarah Churchill

    More could be added, but that's what I've got to offer pre-lunch!

    I never knew Lloyd George went with transvestites :smile:

    Edit - for least influential, how about Mrs Attlee? An active Conservative.
    Thanks for spelling note.

    As for Violet Attlee, while it's well-attested she was a Conservative (just as Clemmie Churchill was a Liberal) don't think there's any evidence she was "active" in sense of being a Conservative Party activist or public supporter (same with Mrs C on the Lib side).
    As well as Clementine Churchill, Winston was a Liberal MP when they married and would serve as a minister in Liberal governments.
    Yeah, but my point is that neither Mrs Attlee or Mrs Churchill were political ACTIVISTS. There personal politics were private, not public.

    And rarely seem to have much affected their husbands' views on public policy.
    Violet Attlee was a member of the Labour Party, but she earned the lasting dislike of the left for her frequent criticism of their policies.

    Not that it seems to have affected her husband’s political direction.
This discussion has been closed.