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Hartlepool: Labour still feels value in the Hartlepool betting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,825
edited April 2021 in General
imageHartlepool: Labour still feels value in the Hartlepool betting – politicalbetting.com

Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer were both campaigning in Hartlepool yesterday. That may be because they both believe the by-election there to be very close or it may be that they wish to give that impression.

Read the full story here

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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Agreed. That's my judgement too.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    I'm on the Tories. I think recent electoral history on swingback isn't a good guide anymore with the values shifts taking place, and Hartlepool is almost pitch perfect for their target pool of voters. It's bigger than just Brexit, which is a symptom not a cause.

    Also, Starmer isn't Corbyn but he is Starmer and has his own issues - insincere triangulating north London left-liberal being chief amongst them - and I don't think Westminster bubble issues on Boris will resonate here.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not inclined to bet on this, to be honest. Can see it going either way.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667

    I'm on the Tories. I think recent electoral history on swingback isn't a good guide anymore with the values shifts taking place, and Hartlepool is almost pitch perfect for their target pool of voters. It's bigger than just Brexit, which is a symptom not a cause.

    Also, Starmer isn't Corbyn but he is Starmer and has his own issues - insincere triangulating north London left-liberal being chief amongst them - and I don't think Westminster bubble issues on Boris will resonate here.

    Agreed. That's my judgement too.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,128
    Still expecting a narrow Labour hold. Anything else would just be too odd. OTOH I think the Tories will do well in the Teeside and WM Mayorals. Not usre about The West of England one. For me the natioonal polls currently are the decsive factor and we've simply not heard enough on the ground in Hartlepool to suggest it's in the bag.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294

    I'm on the Tories. I think recent electoral history on swingback isn't a good guide anymore with the values shifts taking place, and Hartlepool is almost pitch perfect for their target pool of voters. It's bigger than just Brexit, which is a symptom not a cause.

    Also, Starmer isn't Corbyn but he is Starmer and has his own issues - insincere triangulating north London left-liberal being chief amongst them - and I don't think Westminster bubble issues on Boris will resonate here.

    Agreed. That's my judgement too.
    I should add that Jill Mortimer is a weak candidate for Hartlepool.

    If the Tories win it will be in spite of and not because of her. I can only assume she got it because she has friends in high places.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149
    I’d go with David and Mike, particularly as the news headlines are starting to swing against be government. Hartlepool may be Brexit central, but Brexit is now done. Voters are swung by the future not the past, and it isn’t clear what the Tory promise to Hartlepool is, other than some vague stuff about levelling up that so far has come to nothing.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    felix said:

    Still expecting a narrow Labour hold. Anything else would just be too odd. OTOH I think the Tories will do well in the Teeside and WM Mayorals. Not usre about The West of England one. For me the natioonal polls currently are the decsive factor and we've simply not heard enough on the ground in Hartlepool to suggest it's in the bag.

    People have been saying this since GE2017 about the Red Wall. There's been plenty of evidence for "odd" things since - Leigh, Sedgefield, Redcar.. And national polls camouflage how things are moving about.

    I'm not naive or delusional. I think Labour are making progress but in the Mets, university towns and southern places like Worthing, Wycombe, and Milton Keynes where young middle-class graduates are clustering and modestly in Scotland and Wales too.

    They aren't here.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,926
    I have just read Count Binface's manifesto. It is rather good, more sensible than some proper party manifestos. And if you have seen the place they put the handdryer in the Uxbridge pub loo you would know what I mean.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,045
    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.


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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,547
    “Boris Johnson personally picked up the phone to newspaper editors to blame Dominic Cummings for leaking against his government” 👇 https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1385704781419798530
    https://twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1385711372126855172



  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.


    I think it's new green technology and pharmaceutical plants - basically, new industries. Coupled with things like saving football and anti-Wokeness it could be a potent package.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667

    I'm on the Tories. I think recent electoral history on swingback isn't a good guide anymore with the values shifts taking place, and Hartlepool is almost pitch perfect for their target pool of voters. It's bigger than just Brexit, which is a symptom not a cause.

    Also, Starmer isn't Corbyn but he is Starmer and has his own issues - insincere triangulating north London left-liberal being chief amongst them - and I don't think Westminster bubble issues on Boris will resonate here.

    Agreed. That's my judgement too.
    I should add that Jill Mortimer is a weak candidate for Hartlepool.

    If the Tories win it will be in spite of and not because of her. I can only assume she got it because she has friends in high places.
    Indeed. But counter-balanced by Labour picking a lousy candidate for that seat.
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,060
    Labour real value here. I expect them to hold, albeit narrowly.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,045
    kjh said:

    I have just read Count Binface's manifesto. It is rather good, more sensible than some proper party manifestos. And if you have seen the place they put the handdryer in the Uxbridge pub loo you would know what I mean.

    Yes, it is rather good. I am glad that someone finally is tackling the big issues.

    https://www.countbinface.com/london-2021-manifesto

    4.5 to beat Fox with Shadsy.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598

    Good morning, everyone.

    Not inclined to bet on this, to be honest. Can see it going either way.

    As David says in the header, he is in two minds himself.
    For very regular punters, such value bets at not long odds are perhaps more interesting than to those of us who dabble ?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598
    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    They might get a clue from Biden over the next couple of years, if the Senate will let him (cough, Joe Manchin).
    Problem, for them is that so might Boris.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,547
    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,045

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.


    I think it's new green technology and pharmaceutical plants - basically, new industries. Coupled with things like saving football and anti-Wokeness it could be a potent package.
    "Saving football and anti-Wokeness" doesn't sound more than shallow populism to me, rather than economic and social renewal.

    I think that the better paid jobs in the green technology and pharma sector are in the research and design sector, rather than manufacturing. The key to getting those jobs to places like Teeside is making them attractive to university graduates as places to live. Celebrating cultural reaction is unlikely to do that.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,418
    'Events, dear boy, events', as a former Member for Stockton famously said.

    The headlines are not good for the PM or the Conservatives at the moment. I don't think that, as the Post Office scandal opens up further that initially that will be good for the Conservatives, although our PM ought to be able to turn the situation to his advantage.

    On the other hand, Cummings revelations, while coming from a somewhat tainted source but touch a nerve.

    And Good Morning everyone. Sunny again and Mrs C and I had en excellent lunch in a very pleasant pub garden yesterday. With a goldfinch singing his little heart out on a nearby tree, so high that I couldn't get a decent picture on my phone.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Foxy said:

    kjh said:

    I have just read Count Binface's manifesto. It is rather good, more sensible than some proper party manifestos. And if you have seen the place they put the handdryer in the Uxbridge pub loo you would know what I mean.

    Yes, it is rather good. I am glad that someone finally is tackling the big issues.

    https://www.countbinface.com/london-2021-manifesto

    4.5 to beat Fox with Shadsy.
    It's certainly very funny.

    America could use this sort of humour in its politics, quite frankly.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,568
    edited April 2021
    kjh said:

    I have just read Count Binface's manifesto. It is rather good, more sensible than some proper party manifestos. And if you have seen the place they put the handdryer in the Uxbridge pub loo you would know what I mean.

    He is 7/1 to get more than 20000 first votes with ladbrokes which i think is value especially given William Hills are 7/2 on him getting more than 1% - Given about 3.5M votes were cast in the last mayor election this is quite a difference of opinion (or misatke) by one of the bookies - I think its ladbrokes who may be wrong here .I have also invested a bit on him beating Fox at 11/2
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149
    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,418
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    Contrasts oddly with, AIUI, the super injunctions on former wives (etc) from talking to the Press.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598
    (FPT)
    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    rcs1000 said:

    theProle said:

    I calculated that the differential between the price per KW of electricity and natural gas supplied to my house (2.3p vs 12.8p) is so great I could theoretically save money by generating my electricity with a gas powered genset, despite its inefficiencies.

    For apartment complexes with shared heating and hot water, you can use combined heat and power units and then your effective efficiencies are pretty high.

    Bear in mind, though, that you can't have the entire country generating electricity at home from natural gas, because the local gas distribution grid has perhaps a fifth of the capacity that is needed.
    I wasn't suggesting this is to be encouraged, more pointing out that green electricity can't possibly be claimed to be cheap compared to natural gas if its even remotely economic to generate your own electricity from gas. When idly considering this concept, I think I reckoned that the electricity cost was probably comparable with the grid, and I then got the free heating from the cooling water as a byproduct.

    The UK's gas grid probably wouldn't be that overstretched if this did catch on (you can actually get combi boilers that also generate electricity when running) - my annual electricity usage is less than 20% of my gas usage, and that's probably pretty typical. Even at 25% efficiency, that's only going to double my gas consumption.
    I was actually looking into this as a "hey save money by generating your own electricity" business, and got into the numbers in some detail. Which is why I know it works for (many) apartment complexes.

    The problem with doing in on a more widespread basis is that most (a) most people use more joules of electricity than of gas, and (b) electricity demand varies quite a lot with the time of day. So - unless you want Tesla PowerWalls in every home - you're limited by peak demand.

    As an aside, banning gas for home heating is utterly retarded. Natural gas is a super efficient way to heat homes.
    @theProle has touched on an interesting point, though.
    The solid oxide fuel cells from Ceres power, which generate heat and electricity (approx half and half) from natural gas have a combined efficiency of around 90%. They only really work on a fairly large scale, though (200kW plus) - but for large developments they are much more efficient than mains electricity.
    And the heat can also be used for powering cooling systems via adsorptive refrigeration, so is usable year round.

    It’s a great interim fix for reducing carbon footprint in the short/medium term, since it’s economically very attractive for a lot of projects.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.


    I think it's new green technology and pharmaceutical plants - basically, new industries. Coupled with things like saving football and anti-Wokeness it could be a potent package.
    "Saving football and anti-Wokeness" doesn't sound more than shallow populism to me, rather than economic and social renewal.

    I think that the better paid jobs in the green technology and pharma sector are in the research and design sector, rather than manufacturing. The key to getting those jobs to places like Teeside is making them attractive to university graduates as places to live. Celebrating cultural reaction is unlikely to do that.
    Wow. The confirmation bias is strong in this one, Luke.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,547
    The taxonomy of the Cummings war is fascinating. Westminster chatter linked him to the Dyson, Saudi, flat stories earlier in the week. Guido, for eg, did a throwaway par on it.

    For some reason this turns into a formal briefing to three newspapers...why?
    https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1385834770165293056
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,160
    Mr. Away, hmm. Have put a little on those bets. Let's hope they come off.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,568

    Mr. Away, hmm. Have put a little on those bets. Let's hope they come off.

    Also just done 25/1 on Binface heading a group of Fox, gammons, Rose and Corbyn with ladbrokes which looks massive value given the viral nature of Binface's campaign
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    You can get 7/1 on Binface getting over 20,000 votes at Ladbrokes.

    Surely this is an easy orginisational for a quick "Binface for London" Facebook group? Organise 20k London residents to slap 100 quid on the result and vote for him?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
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    RogerRoger Posts: 19,293
    Scott_xP said:

    “Boris Johnson personally picked up the phone to newspaper editors to blame Dominic Cummings for leaking against his government” 👇 https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1385704781419798530
    https://twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1385711372126855172



    Peter Brookes is having fun. Not up to yesterday's standard but if you get one or two of those in a year you're doing well..
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Alistair said:

    You can get 7/1 on Binface getting over 20,000 votes at Ladbrokes.

    Surely this is an easy orginisational for a quick "Binface for London" Facebook group? Organise 20k London residents to slap 100 quid on the result and vote for him?

    It's a good tip by both you and @state_go_away

    20,000 votes for him is achievable.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 34,547

    Total Westminster bubble story.

    Maybe, although some are speculating on Gove's intentions at this point...
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,418

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    Both ways.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    Both ways.
    I think not.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,568
    edited April 2021
    Khan to get between 35-40% at 16/1 with the Magic Sign (laddies for those under 50!) looks generous given the last polling had him on 42%.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,418

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    Both ways.
    I think not.
    Not as many, but some. Hove?
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,568
    edited April 2021

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    yes its a damming indictment of a party set up to relieve conditions amongst the working class in the early 20th century that they now have far more of a chance winning Guildford than Mansfield . Somebody sensible at Labour needs to step back and consider this before it becomes a party for just woke virtue signallers . Those currently in the top Labour brass probably just mix though with the woke and perhaps feel therefore that they are more importnant to pander to than actually is the case . Hartlepool may just wake them up
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,305

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    .
    There are special local circumstances in Hartlepool that make it especially challenging for Labour to hold: simmering Brownite vs Corbynite feud in the local party, the record of the local Labour council (bad) and the defection of a significant number of councillors and activists to whatever Scargill's thing is called.

    Also Hartlepudilians are fiercely devoted to the essentially eugenicist philosophy that underpins Brexit.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,070
    edited April 2021
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    It’s the idea of getting other people to pay for the refurbs, and then claiming they hadn’t that will resonate with red wallers. The rest is Westminster bubble stuff.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,070

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    Both ways.
    I think not.
    Not as many, but some. Hove?
    And a lot of London seats.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294

    Khan to get between 35-40% at 16/1 with the Magic Sign (laddies for those under 50!) looks generous given the last polling had him on 42%.

    It's annoying because I had a good bet on him getting 50%+ of the first round vote, which now looks unlikely to come in.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,314
    IanB2 said:

    I’d go with David and Mike, particularly as the news headlines are starting to swing against be government. Hartlepool may be Brexit central, but Brexit is now done. Voters are swung by the future not the past, and it isn’t clear what the Tory promise to Hartlepool is, other than some vague stuff about levelling up that so far has come to nothing.

    I think we need to start with the assumption that this would have been won in 2019 if not for the Brexit party by the Tories. Then we need to consider if Labour has done enough to 'win' the seat. I'm not sure they have made any in roads into messaging to the working classes although this will be a good test of whether 'not being Jeremy Corbyn' is a net positive for Labour in this type of seat. Everything I have seen puts this very close so I agree with DH that the value bet is Labour but it is not value enough for me!!
  • Options
    JonWCJonWC Posts: 286
    I'm not remotely a fan of Boris but it seems I am reading the headlines completely differently to most here. On the Dyson stuff it just says Boris moves heaven and earth to get ventilators. The rest of it just looks like opposition desperation which makes me think canvass returns are very bad.

    And then you have Boris saves football from some nasty billionaires, and even better some Italian nutter says he did so, the naughty man (as did UEFA)! The Tories would pay Super League money to get advertising like that, and on the back pages too, which people actually read.

    One other factor is that the lunatic fringe of Labour are going to be voting Green or even Tory in a desperate attempt to get rid of Keir.

    I was thinking the Tories are going to do much better than expected everywhere, including Hartlepool.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    Both ways.
    I think not.
    Not as many, but some. Hove?
    Labour only flipped one seat at the last election, so I suppose theoretically that Putney might go safe...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097
    edited April 2021

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,314
    Patrick O'Flynn:
    Seldom have so many keyboard warriors and political activists professed so much dissatisfaction towards the government of the day. For some left-wing bloggers and tweeters, the number one cause of outrage of the moment is so-called 'Tory sleaze', a subject to be added to an already formidably long list of gripes towards Boris Johnson that includes Brexit, the claim that Britain is not very racist and his alleged unforgivable bungling of the Covid crisis.
    . . .
    But here’s the strangest thing: none of it is making any difference to the Prime Minister’s standing in the eyes of the general public.


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/teflon-boris-is-causing-starmer-to-come-unstuck

    The pinprick efforts of Starmer, Cummings and Peter Brookes will come to nought.

    ... nobody who has visited the Hartlepool by-election campaign now expecting anything other than a Tory victory.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598
    In other climate change news...

    Environment Minister Koizumi asked why Japan’ new emissions reduction target set at 46%:

    “It's not as though I have a clear vision in sight, but rather a silhouette emerged. What came to mind then was the number 46."

    https://twitter.com/MarikaKatanuma/status/1385800948157542400
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,561
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    How does a refund work here to the satisfaction of anyone?

    X gives Y £100k
    Y refunds X £100k

    What is to stop X then giving Y the £100k back after its refunded, if they were able to give it under the radar in the first place.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,080
    I think this constituency is a genuine 50:50 call so if you are getting better odds on Labour that is where the value is. Normally it would be a walk in the park for an Opposition but as David identifies the unknown factor is the large Brexit Party vote.

    It's interesting that Boris took time out to campaign there. I doubt he would have done that if he wasn't getting told that it was a possible win. But Labour, surely, aren't going backwards from the disaster of 2019, are they?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,392
    Nigelb said:

    In other climate change news...

    Environment Minister Koizumi asked why Japan’ new emissions reduction target set at 46%:

    “It's not as though I have a clear vision in sight, but rather a silhouette emerged. What came to mind then was the number 46."

    https://twitter.com/MarikaKatanuma/status/1385800948157542400

    Gives a whole new meaning to the expression ‘smoke and mirrors.’
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,561
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    By 2024 the sleaze will be electorally significant unless the govt has done well on the economy (and been lucky given the cylical nature of the world economy is largely beyond any govts control). In Hartlepool, in 2021, nah.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    yes its a damming indictment of a party set up to relieve conditions amongst the working class in the early 20th century that they now have far more of a chance winning Guildford than Mansfield . Somebody sensible at Labour needs to step back and consider this before it becomes a party for just woke virtue signallers . Those currently in the top Labour brass probably just mix though with the woke and perhaps feel therefore that they are more importnant to pander to than actually is the case . Hartlepool may just wake them up
    And then we're just back to the old problem of each move towards the centre of public opinion pissing off the radicals.

    Labour is clogging up the plumbing of our democratic system now. Simultaneously too weak to win and too well dug in to its strongholds to be displaced. Very well. Until Labour either reforms itself fundamentally or is finally ground down and replaced then we shall just have to have Tories, Tories and more Tories. Very much the lesser of two evils.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667

    Khan to get between 35-40% at 16/1 with the Magic Sign (laddies for those under 50!) looks generous given the last polling had him on 42%.

    That's big slide away from Khan - close on 1 in 5 who were going to vote for him having supposedly dropped away. I think he is a bland nothingness of a mayor, but none of the mainstream candidates are any better, so I do wonder if that 42% was quite an outlier.

    His biggest worry is what the hell incentivises the Labour vote to get off its arse on polling day? Which is a wider issue for the Party.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,561
    DavidL said:

    I think this constituency is a genuine 50:50 call so if you are getting better odds on Labour that is where the value is. Normally it would be a walk in the park for an Opposition but as David identifies the unknown factor is the large Brexit Party vote.

    It's interesting that Boris took time out to campaign there. I doubt he would have done that if he wasn't getting told that it was a possible win. But Labour, surely, aren't going backwards from the disaster of 2019, are they?

    It is not Labour going backwards, its what happens to Brexit party voters. The Labour vote share will surely increase but probably not by enough to hold off the Tory vote.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,314
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    In other climate change news...

    Environment Minister Koizumi asked why Japan’ new emissions reduction target set at 46%:

    “It's not as though I have a clear vision in sight, but rather a silhouette emerged. What came to mind then was the number 46."

    https://twitter.com/MarikaKatanuma/status/1385800948157542400

    Gives a whole new meaning to the expression ‘smoke and mirrors.’
    Shades of James Hogg, the Ettrick shepherd ("Confessions of a justified sinner").

  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,561

    Khan to get between 35-40% at 16/1 with the Magic Sign (laddies for those under 50!) looks generous given the last polling had him on 42%.

    That's big slide away from Khan - close on 1 in 5 who were going to vote for him having supposedly dropped away. I think he is a bland nothingness of a mayor, but none of the mainstream candidates are any better, so I do wonder if that 42% was quite an outlier.

    His biggest worry is what the hell incentivises the Labour vote to get off its arse on polling day? Which is a wider issue for the Party.
    How do people who think Khan is a bit meh but the other candidates are worse vote? I think a lot of them will have Khan as second preference and use their first vote as a signal.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    Yep. That's what's going to bring about a change of Government in the United Kingdom after 11 years.

    Downing Street decorators.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,128
    geoffw said:

    Patrick O'Flynn:

    Seldom have so many keyboard warriors and political activists professed so much dissatisfaction towards the government of the day. For some left-wing bloggers and tweeters, the number one cause of outrage of the moment is so-called 'Tory sleaze', a subject to be added to an already formidably long list of gripes towards Boris Johnson that includes Brexit, the claim that Britain is not very racist and his alleged unforgivable bungling of the Covid crisis.
    . . .
    But here’s the strangest thing: none of it is making any difference to the Prime Minister’s standing in the eyes of the general public.


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/teflon-boris-is-causing-starmer-to-come-unstuck

    The pinprick efforts of Starmer, Cummings and Peter Brookes will come to nought.

    ... nobody who has visited the Hartlepool by-election campaign now expecting anything other than a Tory victory.
    Interesting - one of the frustrating things about by-elections is that it's generally only afterwards that we hear about awful canvassing, etc, etc and that party A knew they'd lost from day 1. Getting anything remotely reliable beforehand is rare indeed.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,305

    St. George

    Palestinian/Greek.

    Bede would be a much better patron saint for England (if you've got to have one). From the red wall, never went any further than Ripon in his life and would 100% have voted leave.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
    Enjoy your bubble.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    Britain is not America.

    Johnson is not Trump.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,667
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    It would still be a Trump White House if hadn't so egregiously screwed up over Covid. If he had taken it seriously and had the prospect of a vaccine programme coming to the rescue shortly after the election, he'd be there for four more years.

    Boris has delivered the near perfect vaccine programme.

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 19,293
    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    Quite right. Sometimes the public are prepared to cast a blind eye towards a duplicious bastard but never for long and he he has history. If not now soon.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
    Enjoy your bubble.
    After 11 years, are you still enjoying yours?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Dura_Ace said:

    St. George

    Palestinian/Greek.

    Bede would be a much better patron saint for England (if you've got to have one). From the red wall, never went any further than Ripon in his life and would 100% have voted leave.
    "You've"
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,314
    Roger said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    Quite right. Sometimes the public are prepared to cast a blind eye towards a duplicious bastard but never for long and he he has history. If not now soon.
    Hope springs eternal.
    "He has history" - yes, as a winner.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149

    Foxy said:

    I have a modest sum on the Tories, from when it was more or less evens. I cannot see that BXP vote going to Labour.

    Labour's problem in the post industrial areas of the old coalfields is that they have no real plan to revive them either socially or economically. I am not convinced that the Tories do either, apart from pork barrelling them.

    Quite possibly not, but then again a bit of flag waving and pork barrelling is liable to prove more attractive than OMFG ALL YOU WHITE PEOPLE ARE SO RACIST!!!! One can argue that this may be crude and neither entirely fair nor truthful, but that is basically where the image of the Check Your Privilege Party is right now.

    I'm already on record saying that, given Hartlepool held for Labour in 2019, and the extreme rarity of Government victories in Parliamentary by-elections, Labour should hold again this time. However, if I'm mistaken and the Tories get in, there's an excellent chance that Labour will never win the seat back, because in much of the country support for them is reflexive and habitual, and once the habit is broken and they become the losers much of that support simply melts away. In all of the five Red Wall seats that Theresa May somehow managed to win in 2017, slender Tory victories were converted into five figure thumpings two years later. Come the next election, we'll likely see a LOT of that sort of thing happening.
    yes its a damming indictment of a party set up to relieve conditions amongst the working class in the early 20th century that they now have far more of a chance winning Guildford than Mansfield . Somebody sensible at Labour needs to step back and consider this before it becomes a party for just woke virtue signallers . Those currently in the top Labour brass probably just mix though with the woke and perhaps feel therefore that they are more importnant to pander to than actually is the case . Hartlepool may just wake them up
    And then we're just back to the old problem of each move towards the centre of public opinion pissing off the radicals.

    Labour is clogging up the plumbing of our democratic system now. Simultaneously too weak to win and too well dug in to its strongholds to be displaced. Very well. Until Labour either reforms itself fundamentally or is finally ground down and replaced then we shall just have to have Tories, Tories and more Tories. Very much the lesser of two evils.
    Which is why the Labour Party is always the Tories' favourite opposition. Too entrenched to die, too arrogant to embrace pluralist politics, it clings to its position as opposition party and sits in the way of genuine progress. We even have the absurd position that a significant chunk of Labour is cheering on the Tories in Hartlepool, thinking a Labour defeat will help them in an internal struggle against their own leader!
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,035

    Khan to get between 35-40% at 16/1 with the Magic Sign (laddies for those under 50!) looks generous given the last polling had him on 42%.

    That's big slide away from Khan - close on 1 in 5 who were going to vote for him having supposedly dropped away. I think he is a bland nothingness of a mayor, but none of the mainstream candidates are any better, so I do wonder if that 42% was quite an outlier.

    His biggest worry is what the hell incentivises the Labour vote to get off its arse on polling day? Which is a wider issue for the Party.
    We should be clear that this was the first poll in the race by that pollster, and they prompted for every minor candidate. Pollsters who have polled repeatedly showed much smaller retrenchments:

    Redfield and Wilton had Khan down 4%, from 51% to 47%, from 6-8 March to 15-16 April.
    Opinium had Khan down 2%, from 53% to 51%, from 17-20 March to 7-10 April.

    It's possible there is a late swing away from Khan, or simply that the Comres methodology is superior, and 16/1 are fairly long odds. But I won't be taking this bet. Not a single poll has shown Khan under 40% and only 1 poll ,which had Niko Omilana on 5%, has shown him under 45%.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097
    The complacency and hubris shown by Tories is as palpable as it is reminiscent of other untouchable administrations in the past.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
    Enjoy your bubble.
    Very droll. I know that Labour's supporters can't compute the fact that Never Labour voters might exist, but we do and we are legion.

    Johnson is a shit but he's vastly superior to the despicable creature that Labour tried to foist upon us in 2019. Some of us also haven't forgotten that the last Labour Government was responsible for the effective destruction of the United Kingdom. We don't want the same thing happening to England, thank you very much.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149

    DavidL said:

    I think this constituency is a genuine 50:50 call so if you are getting better odds on Labour that is where the value is. Normally it would be a walk in the park for an Opposition but as David identifies the unknown factor is the large Brexit Party vote.

    It's interesting that Boris took time out to campaign there. I doubt he would have done that if he wasn't getting told that it was a possible win. But Labour, surely, aren't going backwards from the disaster of 2019, are they?

    It is not Labour going backwards, its what happens to Brexit party voters. The Labour vote share will surely increase but probably not by enough to hold off the Tory vote.
    Obsessing about BXP voters is a red herring; they will go to the four winds (and many will stay at home).#

    You could have made the same point after 2015 - when Labour scored 36% with UKIP on 28% and the Tories on 21%. Yet in 2017 with the UKIP vote falling 17%, the Labour vote went up by significantly more than the Tories - a net Con/Lab swing to Labour of 1.8%, compared to the national swing of 2.0%. So the collapse of the UKIP vote made little difference to the two-party swing.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    Yep. That's what's going to bring about a change of Government in the United Kingdom after 11 years.

    Downing Street decorators.
    You're trying your favourite straw person trick again. I simply said it was a question of legitimate public interest. Which it is.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097
    edited April 2021

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
    Enjoy your bubble.
    After 11 years, are you still enjoying yours?
    My politics has definitely been denied the comfort of a bubble these past 11 years. It’s hard to be unfashionable.

    Fortunately fashions change. Boris’ bell bottoms whilst all the rage are starting to wear a little thin. And whilst you’re still wearing them, it’s evident that you’re not entirely comfortable.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    Dominic Grieve having fun on R4 - Johnson is "a vacuum of integrity"......
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    It’s very similar to what happened in Trumps White House. He was similarly in tune with his constituency, but blind to the world beyond and dysfunctional as the revolving door of talent whirred away. Each story chipped away.

    Slowly, but surely all this added up to enough to unseat him. By the time of the election he still delighted his cult like following, blind to the fact that a coalition had rallied around the imperfect Biden.
    *Johnson is not nearly so toxic as Trump
    *Labour is much weaker than the Democrats
    *Biden didn't have to cope with having one leg chewed off by the California National Party
    Enjoy your bubble.
    Very droll. I know that Labour's supporters can't compute the fact that Never Labour voters might exist, but we do and we are legion.

    Johnson is a shit but he's vastly superior to the despicable creature that Labour tried to foist upon us in 2019. Some of us also haven't forgotten that the last Labour Government was responsible for the effective destruction of the United Kingdom. We don't want the same thing happening to England, thank you very much.
    Yeah. Looks like a bubble.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414
    On topic: I agree totally @david_herdson and have topped up on Lab at 2.4 from BF.

    It's a GOTV classic. Very low turn out and so on.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149
    edited April 2021
    felix said:

    geoffw said:

    Patrick O'Flynn:

    Seldom have so many keyboard warriors and political activists professed so much dissatisfaction towards the government of the day. For some left-wing bloggers and tweeters, the number one cause of outrage of the moment is so-called 'Tory sleaze', a subject to be added to an already formidably long list of gripes towards Boris Johnson that includes Brexit, the claim that Britain is not very racist and his alleged unforgivable bungling of the Covid crisis.
    . . .
    But here’s the strangest thing: none of it is making any difference to the Prime Minister’s standing in the eyes of the general public.


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/teflon-boris-is-causing-starmer-to-come-unstuck

    The pinprick efforts of Starmer, Cummings and Peter Brookes will come to nought.

    ... nobody who has visited the Hartlepool by-election campaign now expecting anything other than a Tory victory.
    Interesting - one of the frustrating things about by-elections is that it's generally only afterwards that we hear about awful canvassing, etc, etc and that party A knew they'd lost from day 1. Getting anything remotely reliable beforehand is rare indeed.
    You're suggesting that O'Flynn, former UKIP MEP, writing in the Spectator is "remotely reliable"?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think this constituency is a genuine 50:50 call so if you are getting better odds on Labour that is where the value is. Normally it would be a walk in the park for an Opposition but as David identifies the unknown factor is the large Brexit Party vote.

    It's interesting that Boris took time out to campaign there. I doubt he would have done that if he wasn't getting told that it was a possible win. But Labour, surely, aren't going backwards from the disaster of 2019, are they?

    It is not Labour going backwards, its what happens to Brexit party voters. The Labour vote share will surely increase but probably not by enough to hold off the Tory vote.
    Obsessing about BXP voters is a red herring; they will go to the four winds (and many will stay at home).#

    You could have made the same point after 2015 - when Labour scored 36% with UKIP on 28% and the Tories on 21%. Yet in 2017 with the UKIP vote falling 17%, the Labour vote went up by significantly more than the Tories - a net Con/Lab swing to Labour of 1.8%, compared to the national swing of 2.0%. So the collapse of the UKIP vote made little difference to the two-party swing.

    I agree on the stay home point. Low turn out event. Lot's of negative 'there all the same' + pandemic worries.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    Jonathan said:

    The complacency and hubris shown by Tories is as palpable as it is reminiscent of other untouchable administrations in the past.

    Sigh. You're not engaging with my points.

    Presumably, that's because the questions are simply far too difficult.

    Anyway, I must go for painkillers and rest. Ex-tooth is grim and giving me grief.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 64,598
    .
    Jonathan said:

    The complacency and hubris shown by Tories is as palpable as it is reminiscent of other untouchable administrations in the past.

    But Nemesis has never operated on a tight schedule.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,101
    edited April 2021
    Interesting observation......
    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1385828992138285063?s=20

    Interesting change of style in Cummings' latest blog. From long, rambling and incontinent, to rather tight and focused, as though he had the help of an experienced journalist who knew how to land more blows with fewer words. Anyone seen @michaelgove? And re the flat refurb
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 59,414

    Paul Waugh
    @paulwaugh
    This is extraordinary and risks getting lost.
    @SamCoatesSky
    says
    @BorisJohnson
    personally phoned newspaper editors to brief that Cummings had leaked his messages.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,097

    Jonathan said:

    The complacency and hubris shown by Tories is as palpable as it is reminiscent of other untouchable administrations in the past.

    Sigh. You're not engaging with my points.

    Presumably, that's because the questions are simply far too difficult.

    Anyway, I must go for painkillers and rest. Ex-tooth is grim and giving me grief.
    Do rest. Sounds horrible.

    The point is I’ve heard all of this before, just uttered from Labour mouths in about 2006-2007.

  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 21,561
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    I think this constituency is a genuine 50:50 call so if you are getting better odds on Labour that is where the value is. Normally it would be a walk in the park for an Opposition but as David identifies the unknown factor is the large Brexit Party vote.

    It's interesting that Boris took time out to campaign there. I doubt he would have done that if he wasn't getting told that it was a possible win. But Labour, surely, aren't going backwards from the disaster of 2019, are they?

    It is not Labour going backwards, its what happens to Brexit party voters. The Labour vote share will surely increase but probably not by enough to hold off the Tory vote.
    Obsessing about BXP voters is a red herring; they will go to the four winds (and many will stay at home).#

    You could have made the same point after 2015 - when Labour scored 36% with UKIP on 28% and the Tories on 21%. Yet in 2017 with the UKIP vote falling 17%, the Labour vote went up by significantly more than the Tories - a net Con/Lab swing to Labour of 1.8%, compared to the national swing of 2.0%. So the collapse of the UKIP vote made little difference to the two-party swing.

    The public perception of the brexit divide between the Tories and Labour in 2017 and 2021 are not remotely close. The Tories are led by the chief druid of Brexit this time around.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    Yep. That's what's going to bring about a change of Government in the United Kingdom after 11 years.

    Downing Street decorators.
    You're trying your favourite straw person trick again. I simply said it was a question of legitimate public interest. Which it is.
    It's strawman (it means straw(hu)man; only Wokeies say "strawperson" because they're afraid of misgendering a scarecrow and being accused of misogyny -normal people think that's nuts) and yes such questions should always be asked but the theme of this thread is that this is Der Untergang.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,294

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    How does a refund work here to the satisfaction of anyone?

    X gives Y £100k
    Y refunds X £100k

    What is to stop X then giving Y the £100k back after its refunded, if they were able to give it under the radar in the first place.
    Precisely.

    Boris is as bent as a two bob note.

    But I agree with both those who say this latest twist will have no short-term effect AND with those who claim this supports the longer-term chipping away of Boris’s general electability.
    It puts him in an potentially invidious position, but only once the Opposition sorts itself out.

    And the Tories might reinvent themselves again (and change their leader) before that takes effect, of course.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,149
    edited April 2021

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on Boris Johnson deciding to start a war with Dominic Cummings https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/23/boris-johnsons-text-addiction-dominic-cummings

    Cummo’s account seems the most credible, both at face value and because of the detail backing it up, and the offer to provide further evidence and answer questions.

    Which puts us in the position where the PM personally decided to get his hands dirty phoning the press to spread what he knew were a pack of lies. Presumably to deflect attention away from one of Carrie’s friends.
    No-one gives a toss what Cummings says about Boris. People think the former is an off-the-wall sociopath who dislikes everyone and the latter an opportunistic chancer who professes to like everyone, but is actually a ruthless politican. It's all priced in already.

    Total Westminster bubble story. The journalists are too close to the action and getting overexcited and the opposition too desperate to believe they have a chance to take the Government down.

    Somehow don’t think you would be saying this if the leaks had come from Blair or Brown’s Downing St.

    This is clearly serious and more than a bubble story. It contains preferential treatment for donors , Tories ‘using Covid’ , accusations of madness and toxicity at the heart of government.

    I appreciate you want it to go away, not least because it questions why on Earth anyone can support this.
    No. I'm on record here (repeatedly) for attacking the self-interest, cronyism and low-level corruption of this administration - and, I think Boris only cares about himself.

    But, that's not going to dent Government support because their policies and values are simply far more in tune with the electorate. It will only do so once the opposition have already got to an electable position first.
    That the clown would rather refund the downing street decorating donors, than reveal who they are, does make who they might be an important question, of legitimate public interest.
    Yep. That's what's going to bring about a change of Government in the United Kingdom after 11 years.

    Downing Street decorators.
    You're trying your favourite straw person trick again. I simply said it was a question of legitimate public interest. Which it is.
    It's strawman (it means straw(hu)man; only Wokeies say "strawperson" because they're afraid of misgendering a scarecrow and being accused of misogyny -normal people think that's nuts) and yes such questions should always be asked but the theme of this thread is that this is Der Untergang.
    Now it's distraction (and with error, since the term began as 'man of straw')

    Who handed over money to the PM to decorate his home is a question of legitimate public interest.
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,035


    Paul Waugh
    @paulwaugh
    This is extraordinary and risks getting lost.
    @SamCoatesSky
    says
    @BorisJohnson
    personally phoned newspaper editors to brief that Cummings had leaked his messages.

    I don't think the Cummings/Johnson battle will be a game-changer, but I am confused and have been from the start as to why Johnson started it. He must have known that Cummings would fire back very publicly, and that the media would love it. And while it's all a bit 'Westminster Village' for the average voter, its still newspaper headlines which aren't exactly helpful. It's not like this has moved us on from a terrible news cycle for Johnson. Why did he ever get this started?
This discussion has been closed.