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Light the beacons of Gondor, Gavin Williamson may have just come up with a competent and popular pol

SystemSystem Posts: 12,167
edited April 2021 in General
Light the beacons of Gondor, Gavin Williamson may have just come up with a competent and popular policy – politicalbetting.com

A majority of almost all age groups support banning pupils from looking at or using their phones during the school day, with the exception of those aged 18-24 who are against it https://t.co/zDGBDCZihk pic.twitter.com/3m3m8UZxjV

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Comments

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    1st unlike SKS
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    edited April 2021
    1st.

    And I am unanimous on that.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    MattW said:

    1st.

    Cough

    A man that can't count to 2
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,724

    1st unlike SKS

    Quite, he is too wishy washy.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217

    MattW said:

    1st.

    Cough

    A man that can't count to 2
    I've done that one.

    This being the UK, the Ground Level is Floor Zero.

    Anyway, it wasn't there.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Lay Gavin Williamson? Think I'll give that a miss if you don't mind.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,202
    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    edited April 2021
    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,919

    MattW said:

    1st.

    Cough

    A man that can't count to 2
    Doesn't he have a calculator app on his phone?
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Keir not going to number 1 any time soon!
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    1st unlike SKS

    Quite, he is too wishy washy.
    Pantomime
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    Yes I agree with the excellent piece.

    Now I have a suspicion we will be spending the holiday week Tiptoeing through the Tulips with TSE.

    Has TSE been wild swimming at Slippery Stones? Or semi-tame at Hathersage?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,542
    edited April 2021
    There is an obvious comment here so I will make it with all due apologies.

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day*. Surely Williamson is allowed to be right once or twice in his whole career without it affecting his intrinsic, incompetent, nature.

    But yes, a policy I also approve of.

    *Edit - a proper clock of course not this new fangled digital nonsense :)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    edited April 2021
    "Trending in United Kingdom
    #DismantlingWhiteness"

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#DismantlingWhiteness

    "Al Barrett Blue heart
    @hodgehillvicar
    One more time for those who might have missed it: #DismantlingWhiteness has nothing to do with hating white people (or white people hating ourselves). And everything to do with dismantling harmful ways of being in & seeing the world that centre some and marginalise others."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    I note this is overwhelmingly popular amongst age groups who don't have kids in school. And didn't have mobiles in their day.
    Sounds sensible. Common sense intit?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,542
    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,542
    Andy_JS said:

    "Trending in United Kingdom
    #DismantlingWhiteness"

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#DismantlingWhiteness

    "Al Barrett Blue heart
    @hodgehillvicar
    One more time for those who might have missed it: #DismantlingWhiteness has nothing to do with hating white people (or white people hating ourselves). And everything to do with dismantling harmful ways of being in & seeing the world that centre some and marginalise others."

    Like almost any religion one might think of...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    It’s a shame the school can’t just instal one of those Israeli gadgets that blocks all the signals
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    Phones are handed in at reception at ours.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,542
    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    It’s a shame the school can’t just install one of those Israeli gadgets that blocks all the signals
    I was just thinking along exactly the same lines but without realising the Israelis had one.

    I suppose we could make sure all school classrooms are refitted as Faraday cages.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,542
    edited April 2021
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    Phones are handed in at reception at ours.
    There are 1500 kids at my son's school. Not sure that is practical.

    Edit. Although of course a very good idea if it can be done.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    It’s a shame the school can’t just install one of those Israeli gadgets that blocks all the signals
    I was just thinking along exactly the same lines but without realising the Israelis had one.

    I suppose we could make sure all school classrooms are refitted as Faraday cages.
    I thought they had considered it for schools and prisons but found the current technology also managed to block the signal to neighbouring properties?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2021
    This is a no-brainer.
    Surprised it wasn’t already policy.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited April 2021
    It's a great reactionary populist policy.

    The problem educationally is that mobiles are part of the future workplace as much as leisure. We use mobile tech for all kinds of things and will do which relate to work.

    So somehow schools should find ways of accommodating them.

    Not that education will bother Williamson so much as votes, and this one may be a winner.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    A very enjoyable read @TSE - thanks.

    I had not seen this new policy.

    Seems a bit 'look squirrel' to me.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    On the topic of the last thread, it seems almost anything can be explained by the demographics.

    The Tories have captured the elderly vote by protecting their income, delivering them Brexit, and inflating their assets.

    There have never been more old people; *and* they are more likely to vote. You can’t win England without them. The blue wall is even more, proportionally, full of old people than the South East.

    That policies (like Brexit) designed for elderly, no-longer-productive voters will end up bankrupting the country and immiserating the young is of course infuriating - but electoral success is impossible without a willingness to feather-bed this selfish generation.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    edited April 2021
    God he really is a stupid tosspot. What a shit, unenforceable policy.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    It's a great reactionary populist policy.

    The problem educationally is that mobiles are part of the future workplace as much as leisure. We use mobile tech for all kinds of things and will do which relate to work.

    So somehow schools should find ways of accommodating them.

    Not that education will bother Williamson so much as votes, and this one may be a winner.

    Indeed.
    It is somewhat akin to banning the biro and insisting everyone use a chalk and slate.
    Will sixth formers each have access to a laptop to do research in their frees? Or a bulging library overflowing with all the relevant texts?
    Or is this about signalling virtue to the aged?
    Onwards to the past!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    It's a great reactionary populist policy.

    The problem educationally is that mobiles are part of the future workplace as much as leisure. We use mobile tech for all kinds of things and will do which relate to work.

    So somehow schools should find ways of accommodating them.

    Not that education will bother Williamson so much as votes, and this one may be a winner.

    A forward looking country would have some lessons where phones are not allowed, but other lessons where phones are central to the learning process. We are a backword looking country hence a blanket ban will be popular.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited April 2021
    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    In my limited experience almost all of them these days.

    Most schools have done away with lockers which means there is no where to store phones and most parents insist their kids are able to carry phones too and from school for safety reasons. The upshot is that most schools have no alternative but to allow phones in classrooms although many do stop them being used.
    Hmm, lots of Tory voters (the main determinant of Mr Williamson as next PM) didn't live in a world with the crime rate and child abduction risks of today when they went to school. Or they think so.

    On the other hand, lots of them are grandparents who wil lbe worried about their grandchildren's security.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    Perhensile thumb is a skill that needs a mobey.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Andy_JS said:

    "Trending in United Kingdom
    #DismantlingWhiteness"

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#DismantlingWhiteness

    "Al Barrett Blue heart
    @hodgehillvicar
    One more time for those who might have missed it: #DismantlingWhiteness has nothing to do with hating white people (or white people hating ourselves). And everything to do with dismantling harmful ways of being in & seeing the world that centre some and marginalise others."

    Fuck this shit

    Let the Left die. They seem determined to hurl themselves off an ideological cliff, I fail to see why we should prevent this
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    What on earth has this got to do with the Secretary of State for Education? He is supposed to be looking after really important issues, like why there is an imminent shortage of teachers in general, and acutely so in key subjects. And what the country needs to do about it.

    Far better to leave issues like mobile phones to the schools, I would have thought.

    Williamson finds it very easy to decree what must happen - out-of-touch Tories are very much like that - but the problem comes over enforcement. Is he planning to go round all the classrooms in person? Or perhaps he will feel the need to form a squadron of stormtroopers?

    This is what Johnson, Williamson, Gove and Cummings have brought the country to.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    edited April 2021
    1st dose:
    119,306 / 32,693,527

    2nd dose:
    485,421 / 9,416,968

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations


    "17 April
    Data for Wales no longer reported on Saturdays
    As of the week commencing 12 April 2021, Public Health Wales have moved to a six day reporting period for COVID-19 surveillance. This means that there will be no reporting of the daily figures for Wales on Saturdays, and UK numbers have therefore only been updated with data from England, Northern Ireland and Scotland.

    Additional details
    Data for Wales reported on Sundays will be for the 24 hour period up to 9am on Friday, and data reported on Mondays will be for a 48 hour period up to 9am on Sunday. It is likely that the figures reported on Mondays will be around double the usual 24 hours figure."

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/whats-new#data_for_wales_no_longer_reported_on_saturdays
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    Gavin needs to stay behind after class and catch up with what has been Tory policy for many years.

    Namely, that it is headteachers who are best placed to manage their schools in the way they think best. So it is up to them to decide whether the presence of mobile phones is an asset or a hindrance to learning.

    Detention for Gavin: write out 50 times: let headteachers decide.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
    People spend an average of about 2-4 hours a day on their phones. Why would we not structure some learning around this as we do with other parts of life?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited April 2021
    ClippP said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    What on earth has this got to do with the Secretary of State for Education? He is supposed to be looking after really important issues, like why there is an imminent shortage of teachers in general, and acutely so in key subjects. And what the country needs to do about it.

    Far better to leave issues like mobile phones to the schools, I would have thought.

    Williamson finds it very easy to decree what must happen - out-of-touch Tories are very much like that - but the problem comes over enforcement. Is he planning to go round all the classrooms in person? Or perhaps he will feel the need to form a squadron of stormtroopers?

    This is what Johnson, Williamson, Gove and Cummings have brought the country to.
    I have kids of school age. The ubiquity of mobiles is a massive problem. My older daughter's Outstanding north London comprehensive school forbids them on-site: it impounds them on arrival and returns them as the kids depart. A very sensible policy

    I expect that some of the morbid geriatrics and childless incels who constitute a large proportion of the PB commentariat will not understand. Parents will
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Trending in United Kingdom
    #DismantlingWhiteness"

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#DismantlingWhiteness

    "Al Barrett Blue heart
    @hodgehillvicar
    One more time for those who might have missed it: #DismantlingWhiteness has nothing to do with hating white people (or white people hating ourselves). And everything to do with dismantling harmful ways of being in & seeing the world that centre some and marginalise others."

    Fuck this shit

    Let the Left die. They seem determined to hurl themselves off an ideological cliff, I fail to see why we should prevent this
    Oh god, you're off again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    edited April 2021

    Gavin needs to stay behind after class and catch up with what has been Tory policy for many years.

    Namely, that it is headteachers who are best placed to manage their schools in the way they think best. So it is up to them to decide whether the presence of mobile phones is an asset or a hindrance to learning.

    Detention for Gavin: write out 50 times: let headteachers decide.

    Either it is a problem and the schools have already taken steps to resolve it.

    Or it is not a problem.

    Or it is a problem and the schools themselves have no solution.

    What is Williamson actually proposing? Apart from a soundbite and a cheap headline.

    He would be a worthy sucessor to the useless Johnson.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Trending in United Kingdom
    #DismantlingWhiteness"

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#DismantlingWhiteness

    "Al Barrett Blue heart
    @hodgehillvicar
    One more time for those who might have missed it: #DismantlingWhiteness has nothing to do with hating white people (or white people hating ourselves). And everything to do with dismantling harmful ways of being in & seeing the world that centre some and marginalise others."

    Fuck this shit

    Let the Left die. They seem determined to hurl themselves off an ideological cliff, I fail to see why we should prevent this
    To be reflective - I think the left sometimes causes more, not less, division.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    Since when does the Chief Inspector of Ofsted have a side hustle as a fashion influencer?

    https://www.libbylondon.com/pages/amanda-spielman

    Bizarre. How standards have dropped.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    ClippP said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    What on earth has this got to do with the Secretary of State for Education? He is supposed to be looking after really important issues, like why there is an imminent shortage of teachers in general, and acutely so in key subjects. And what the country needs to do about it.

    Far better to leave issues like mobile phones to the schools, I would have thought.

    Williamson finds it very easy to decree what must happen - out-of-touch Tories are very much like that - but the problem comes over enforcement. Is he planning to go round all the classrooms in person? Or perhaps he will feel the need to form a squadron of stormtroopers?

    This is what Johnson, Williamson, Gove and Cummings have brought the country to.
    I have kids of school age. The ubiquity of mobiles is a massive problem. My older daughter's Outstanding north London comprehensive school forbids them on-site: it impounds them on arrival and returns them as the kids depart. A very sensible policy

    I understand some of the morbid geriatrics and childless incels who constitute a large proportion of the PB commentariat will not understand. Parents will
    Which is precisely what my kids' school does too. A policy in search of a problem.
    Edit: Buried in the BBC article @ydoethur linked to
    "95% of schools already restrict the use of phones in some way."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    Since when does the Chief Inspector of Ofsted have a side hustle as a fashion influencer?

    https://www.libbylondon.com/pages/amanda-spielman

    Bizarre. How standards have dropped.
    Since they were selected for their personal friendship with the then SoS despite having no experience of education, no knowledge of schools and having failed, disastrously, in their previous job as head of OFQUAL?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited April 2021

    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
    People spend an average of about 2-4 hours a day on their phones. Why would we not structure some learning around this as we do with other parts of life?
    Because spending 4 hours a day on your phone is really bad (and I probably do more than that). It is very clearly an addiction. I know addiction well

    A healthy life for a child is running around with your mates and a dog, learning to interact with life the universe and everything, in a flesh and blood way. An unhealthy life is that introvert, autistic stare downwards at a screen, being shamed on Instagram

    At one point the on-trend lifestyle for young people was going to work in a factory for 12-15 hours a day, in clogs. That doesn't mean it was good, nor was it "the future"

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    Leon said:

    ClippP said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    What on earth has this got to do with the Secretary of State for Education? He is supposed to be looking after really important issues, like why there is an imminent shortage of teachers in general, and acutely so in key subjects. And what the country needs to do about it.

    Far better to leave issues like mobile phones to the schools, I would have thought.

    Williamson finds it very easy to decree what must happen - out-of-touch Tories are very much like that - but the problem comes over enforcement. Is he planning to go round all the classrooms in person? Or perhaps he will feel the need to form a squadron of stormtroopers?

    This is what Johnson, Williamson, Gove and Cummings have brought the country to.
    I have kids of school age. The ubiquity of mobiles is a massive problem. My older daughter's Outstanding north London comprehensive school forbids them on-site: it impounds them on arrival and returns them as the kids depart. A very sensible policy

    I expect that some of the morbid geriatrics and childless incels who constitute a large proportion of the PB commentariat will not understand. Parents will
    Who's a childless incel???
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
    People spend an average of about 2-4 hours a day on their phones. Why would we not structure some learning around this as we do with other parts of life?
    When I was younger, it was 2-4 hours on TV, probably more. Yet not a single lesson I had was on a television.

    I agree that this should be down to local education authorities, and/or individual schools.

    I agree that kids need to learn computing skills and that every child should have a tablet.

    But I don’t think mobiles are anything but a distraction to pupils. This is good politics.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870

    1st unlike SKS

    SKSICIPM
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    ClippP said:

    dixiedean said:

    How many schools currently allow mobile phones in the classroom?
    Sounds like yet another solution for a problem which doesn't exist.

    What on earth has this got to do with the Secretary of State for Education? He is supposed to be looking after really important issues, like why there is an imminent shortage of teachers in general, and acutely so in key subjects. And what the country needs to do about it.

    Far better to leave issues like mobile phones to the schools, I would have thought.

    Williamson finds it very easy to decree what must happen - out-of-touch Tories are very much like that - but the problem comes over enforcement. Is he planning to go round all the classrooms in person? Or perhaps he will feel the need to form a squadron of stormtroopers?

    This is what Johnson, Williamson, Gove and Cummings have brought the country to.
    I have kids of school age. The ubiquity of mobiles is a massive problem. My older daughter's Outstanding north London comprehensive school forbids them on-site: it impounds them on arrival and returns them as the kids depart. A very sensible policy

    I understand some of the morbid geriatrics and childless incels who constitute a large proportion of the PB commentariat will not understand. Parents will
    Which is precisely what my kids' school does too. A policy in search of a problem.
    Which I think is TSE's point. This is the perfect policy for an ambitious politician: sensible, popular, correct, and already being done in most good schools, so it's much less revolutionary than it sounds, and it won't take much effort to make it work universally, and it will be widely applauded

    The startling thing is this has come from Gavin Williamson, which is also TSE's point. He has hitherto been politically clueless
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
    People spend an average of about 2-4 hours a day on their phones. Why would we not structure some learning around this as we do with other parts of life?
    Because spending 4 hours a day on your phone is really bad (and I probably do more than that). It is very clearly an addiction. I know addiction well

    A healthy life for a child is running around with your mates and a dog, learning to interact with life the universe and everything, in a flesh and blood way. An unhealthy life is that introvert, autistic stare downwards at a screen, being shamed on Instagram

    At one point the on-trend lifestyle for young people was going to work in a factory for 12-15 hours a day, in clogs. That doesn't mean it was good, nor was it "the future"

    If you know addictions well, which does more damage:

    Keep something completely away from kids until they are 18 (or can get away with pretending to be 18) then let them rip?
    Teach them from a young age how it can be used and managed as part of daily life together with understanding the downsides?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    Maybe in some schools, it is needed to dial 999?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    edited April 2021
    UK case summary

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    But that is funded by schools - not the DfE. If they buy those, and I agree that’s the best solution, they have to make cuts elsewhere to pay or charge parents.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    On topic:

    Frank Spencer had a Southern accent, NOT a Northern One!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827

    dixiedean said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Rather that mobiles are used as an indispensable tool (especially by the young).
    If they are primarily an object of distraction and pissing about, then where is the push to forbid them in the workplace?
    “School” does not equal “workplace”.
    And again, the idea that mobiles are an indispensable tool for educative purposes is ludicrous.
    People spend an average of about 2-4 hours a day on their phones. Why would we not structure some learning around this as we do with other parts of life?
    When I was younger, it was 2-4 hours on TV, probably more. Yet not a single lesson I had was on a television.

    I agree that this should be down to local education authorities, and/or individual schools.

    I agree that kids need to learn computing skills and that every child should have a tablet.

    But I don’t think mobiles are anything but a distraction to pupils. This is good politics.
    We certainly had lessons on tv in the 80s. Whats the big difference between a tablet and a mobile? A small tablet isnt really much different to a big mobile, especially to a smaller person.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    UK cases by specimen date

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    edited April 2021
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100k population

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    UK hospitals

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    UK deaths

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  • rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    UK R

    from cases

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    from hospital admissions

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    Why do you listen to your children on this one?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    Age related data

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  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217

    UK R

    from cases

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    from hospital admissions

    image

    Do we know what has happened to this Northern Irish R-value?

    Is it drivenn by a relaively small amount of cases?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Smart politics, dumb policy.

    Williamson worth a bet at 200/1 imo. His naked ambition virtually guarantees a run.
  • ClippP said:

    Gavin needs to stay behind after class and catch up with what has been Tory policy for many years.

    Namely, that it is headteachers who are best placed to manage their schools in the way they think best. So it is up to them to decide whether the presence of mobile phones is an asset or a hindrance to learning.

    Detention for Gavin: write out 50 times: let headteachers decide.

    Either it is a problem and the schools have already taken steps to resolve it.

    Or it is not a problem.

    Or it is a problem and the schools themselves have no solution.

    What is Williamson actually proposing? Apart from a soundbite and a cheap headline.

    He would be a worthy sucessor to the useless Johnson.
    A soundbite and a cheap headline is precisely the idea. They won't ban phones - to do so is top-down nanny stateism. But they want to be seen to be tough on scrubbers (who all have phones to buy drugs with) hence the announcement.

    Remember - the blame is always with Other People. He isn't coming after your kid's phone because they are well-behaved. He's going after the poor kids who can only afford a phone by selling drugs or stealing it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    Age related data scaled to 100k per age group

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    UK Vaccinations

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    England CFR

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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    rkrkrk said:

    Smart politics, dumb policy.

    Williamson worth a bet at 200/1 imo. His naked ambition virtually guarantees a run.

    One thing that puzzles me, but is worth mentioning here, is how popular Williamson is in his constituency.

    If you want to be seriously unpopular, tell my next door neighbours (I live literally on the boundary of South Staffs and Cannock Chase) that Williamson is a twat.

    If you want to live under police protection, say the same thing in Brewood or Codsall.

    They love him. And it can’t all be propaganda. It must be due at least partly to his personal charm.

    He might therefore have a realistic chance of making the final two in a Tory leadership contest.

    If he isn’t sacked for being totally useless first.
  • On topic - Gavin Williamson ticks all the boxes for next Tory leader just as Diane Abbott did for next Corbynite Labour leader. Perhaps the difference between the two is that Abbott understood her (almost limitless) weaknesses whereas Frank Williamson seems to genuinely rate himself.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited April 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    edited April 2021

    On the topic of the last thread, it seems almost anything can be explained by the demographics.

    The Tories have captured the elderly vote by protecting their income, delivering them Brexit, and inflating their assets.

    There have never been more old people; *and* they are more likely to vote. You can’t win England without them. The blue wall is even more, proportionally, full of old people than the South East.

    That policies (like Brexit) designed for elderly, no-longer-productive voters will end up bankrupting the country and immiserating the young is of course infuriating - but electoral success is impossible without a willingness to feather-bed this selfish generation.

    Sounds a bit on the topic of this thread, too.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    MattW said:

    UK R

    from cases

    image
    image

    from hospital admissions

    image

    Do we know what has happened to this Northern Irish R-value?

    Is it drivenn by a relaively small amount of cases?
    Yes - the noise effect when you get to single digits. Pretty soon I will get rid of separate reporting for admissions.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    England CFR

    image
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    First vaccinations this month have almost stopped. No wonder the 45+ folks are having to jostle for appointments.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    edited April 2021
    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    There is an issue with the wrong sort. One and two bed flats are attractive to BTL investors and developers will prefer them to family homes even in areas, like my old patch in east london, where there is a critical shortage of properties suitable for larger families. By making more units out of the piece of land I expect they are more profitable, yet fall short of meeting local housing need in the round.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    Not something I expected to hear from you.

    So you don't think people need somewhere to live?

    Should people live in tents instead?

    Or should we deport people so we have fewer households?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    Maybe in some schools, it is needed to dial 999?
    To accomplish what? The police don’t care about crimes in schools.
  • On topic - Gavin Williamson ticks all the boxes for next Tory leader just as Diane Abbott did for next Corbynite Labour leader. Perhaps the difference between the two is that Abbott understood her (almost limitless) weaknesses whereas Frank Williamson seems to genuinely rate himself.

    Diane Abbott displayed the legendary modesty and self awareness that alumni of the University of Cambridge are famous for.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    Why do you listen to your children on this one?
    I listen to them. I don't necessarily agree with them.....

    A laptop that is "stupid" and "useless" because it doesn't allow them to play games on it during school hours, but they can do all their school work on..... to me, that is a massively positive review.
  • A very enjoyable read @TSE - thanks.

    I had not seen this new policy.

    Seems a bit 'look squirrel' to me.

    You may have guessed I enjoyed writing this piece.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Nearly 15% of health service workers in England remain unvaccinated, and the numbers coming forward for a jab have decreased sharply in the last two weeks, NHS figures have revealed, prompting concerns that many frontline staff are refusing the vaccine.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217

    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    Why do you listen to your children on this one?
    I listen to them. I don't necessarily agree with them.....

    A laptop that is "stupid" and "useless" because it doesn't allow them to play games on it during school hours, but they can do all their school work on..... to me, that is a massively positive review.
    Ah good. I approve.
  • ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    Yes. We're building too many houses. Of the wrong sort. In the wrong places. People aren't going to reward the Tories for the endless new houses swamping their towns. With the NPPF the only way to stop developers building houses is to let developers build houses...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    But that is funded by schools - not the DfE. If they buy those, and I agree that’s the best solution, they have to make cuts elsewhere to pay or charge parents.
    Yes, a private school leading the way. All homework provided on it. Quite a few textbooks as well.

    It's the inevitable next thing. Much as the end of chalk boards was in schools...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    There is an issue with the wrong sort. One and two bed flats are attractive to BTL investors and developers will prefer them to family homes even in areas, like my old patch in east london, where there is a critical shortage of properties suitable for larger families. By making more units out of the piece of land I expect they are more profitable, yet fall short of meeting local housing need in the round.
    If there were no demand for flats then presumably nobody would let them and BTL investors would lose their shirts buying them.

    Also its worth noting that the share of BTL ownership in the country peaked a few years ago and is not going up anymore, so presumably the vast majority of developments are primarily not going to BTL investors.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,595
    ydoethur said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    Maybe in some schools, it is needed to dial 999?
    To accomplish what? The police don’t care about crimes in schools.
    Presumably ambulances turn up?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited April 2021

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    It’s actually a policy suggested by Amanda Spielman:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-44553705

    Who is another lazy, ignorant, stupid fool.

    I think there are two schools of thought on this:

    1) Schools that spend their money on buldings/teachers and demand children bring their own devices in for internet work as a result;

    2) Schools that spend money on tech and therefore forbid children to use their mobiles during the day.

    If they are willing to fund laptops/tablets for all children - and that is what this policy requires in today’s world - this policy is a good policy.

    If it isn’t, the only reason it isn’t the stupidest policy ever is because masks in classrooms are a much stupider idea.

    My children rate the quality of IT kit provided by schools according to the amount of messaging and game playing they can do on it.

    One of their schools provided a customised Chromebook which is locked down quite sensibly. And provides a very detailed report of what they have used it for during the school day. The daughter in question 'hates it" and finds it "stupid" - but it seems to be able to do all the actual work stuff.
    But that is funded by schools - not the DfE. If they buy those, and I agree that’s the best solution, they have to make cuts elsewhere to pay or charge parents.
    Yes, a private school leading the way. All homework provided on it. Quite a few textbooks as well.

    It's the inevitable next thing. Much as the end of chalk boards was in schools...
    But how are they paid for?

    That is the key question.

    Personally, I think there is a good case for the government providing every child over the age of nine with a laptop like the one your children have for free. All textbooks available online. All resources from teachers. And they then use it to become not only tech savvy but to do their work on. Including exams. Set work via GoogleClassroom. Or Teams. Or Showbie. And take it in and Mark it the same way.

    But I doubt if the government will provide the money for it.

    In which case Williamson’s policy is BS.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    On the topic of the last thread, it seems almost anything can be explained by the demographics.

    The Tories have captured the elderly vote by protecting their income, delivering them Brexit, and inflating their assets.

    There have never been more old people; *and* they are more likely to vote. You can’t win England without them. The blue wall is even more, proportionally, full of old people than the South East.

    That policies (like Brexit) designed for elderly, no-longer-productive voters will end up bankrupting the country and immiserating the young is of course infuriating - but electoral success is impossible without a willingness to feather-bed this selfish generation.

    Time to trot out my go-to piece of research on this topic again:

    In 2017, our analysis of the BES data suggests that turnout among over 55s was 83.35%, compared to 58.15% of those under 55. Likewise, turnout was 84.34% vs. 63.06% for over and under 65s respectively. Combining these BES estimates of turnout with LFS estimates of nationality and ONS population estimates, we arrive at the following figures: the over 55s constituted 48.35% of the voting public in 2017, and the over 65s, 30.27%. If we assume that both turnout and the proportion of those disenfranchised due to their nationality remain constant, over 55s will constitute over half of the voting public by 2020 as a result of projected demographic change.

    https://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2019/05/21/the-rise-of-the-grey-vote/

    Allowing for turnout, pensioners are about a third of the electorate and the over 55s an entire half, and the proportions get greater with every passing year. We are a gerontocracy, and will be for some decades to come.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    edited April 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    Not something I expected to hear from you.

    So you don't think people need somewhere to live?

    Should people live in tents instead?

    Or should we deport people so we have fewer households?
    Its the Tory equivalent of Douglas Adams' Shoe Event Horizon. In many towns all we seem to be doing is building more and more and more houses. Where we need to replace old housing stock then that makes sense. But most are 3/4 bed "executive" style homes with minimal internal space and even less space in-between houses, often with a fabulous view of a major road.

    Are there really people clamouring to buy these homes? That desperately want a large mortgage on a small house on estates that quickly descend into sink status thanks to every other house having a rotating cast of impossible to police BTL tenants?

    The solution is planning. Build houses that people need. Which is precisely what the NPPF overrules in favour of the developers.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,348

    IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    There is an issue with the wrong sort. One and two bed flats are attractive to BTL investors and developers will prefer them to family homes even in areas, like my old patch in east london, where there is a critical shortage of properties suitable for larger families. By making more units out of the piece of land I expect they are more profitable, yet fall short of meeting local housing need in the round.
    If there were no demand for flats then presumably nobody would let them and BTL investors would lose their shirts buying them.

    Also its worth noting that the share of BTL ownership in the country peaked a few years ago and is not going up anymore, so presumably the vast majority of developments are primarily not going to BTL investors.
    There is also immense pressure on developers to increase density - both from the cost of the land and form the planners.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    The opposition to this policy surprises me.
    There seems to an idea that it is not possible to learn certain skills without a mobile phone, which is laughable.

    Maybe in some schools, it is needed to dial 999?
    To accomplish what? The police don’t care about crimes in schools.
    Presumably ambulances turn up?
    I don’t know, I’ve never had to send for one.

    I know police refused to turn out for a pupil smashing up a science lab and punching a member of staff.
  • ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    Yes. We're building too many houses. Of the wrong sort. In the wrong places. People aren't going to reward the Tories for the endless new houses swamping their towns. With the NPPF the only way to stop developers building houses is to let developers build houses...
    If these houses are of the wrong sort and in the wrong places, why are people moving into them?
  • IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    There is an issue with the wrong sort. One and two bed flats are attractive to BTL investors and developers will prefer them to family homes even in areas, like my old patch in east london, where there is a critical shortage of properties suitable for larger families. By making more units out of the piece of land I expect they are more profitable, yet fall short of meeting local housing need in the round.
    If there were no demand for flats then presumably nobody would let them and BTL investors would lose their shirts buying them.

    Also its worth noting that the share of BTL ownership in the country peaked a few years ago and is not going up anymore, so presumably the vast majority of developments are primarily not going to BTL investors.
    We're not going to agree on this. All I am saying is that the people back in Stockton most outraged by planning appeals won by developers are all Tories. When these homes get thrown up in places that often the locals the council and the MP object to, how does this translate to electoral gain for the Tories as suggested? They used to be the people leading the objections to endless development and for sensible electoral reasons.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    edited April 2021

    IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Governments lose elections, oppositions don't win them.

    And while I'd make the Conservatives 60-65% likely to win (i.e. outright majority) the next election it is far from certain.

    For all the focus on Labour, the reality is that it is the government's record that will be on trial. Sensible oppositions "never interrupt their opponents when they're making a mistake".

    The hardest thing for the government to navigate in the next three years is going to be housing. If they get it right, lots of new people will be property owners and will have positive equity in their homes.

    If they get it wrong, then either house prices are materially lower (and lots of previously Conservative voters are angry) or the age of first home purchase continues to rise, resulting in ever more disenfranchised voters.

    Right now, we care about Covid and Brexit (where, after a rocky start, the government has done a good, perhaps excellent, job). But that will be old news in three years time.

    The problem with housing is simple. Under the Tories planning framework, councils have to build endless new homes to hit the quota. If they do, it means granting developers permission to build endless rabbit hutch homes (all they seem to want to build). If they don't developers always win on appeal in their plan to build endless rabbit hutch homes.

    I know that NIMBYism gets a lot of bad press. But in somewhere like Stockton-on-Tees I totally understand it. Endless new housing developments have been done across the borough for years. And yet the government says not enough are going up, so developers have won every appeal and keep building in places that understandably locals are hacked off about.

    How the Tories gain electoral credit for concreting over England I don't know.
    The problem with housing is that we’re building too many houses?

    Or the wrong sort?

    Or in the wrong places?

    I don’t get the point of your post...?
    There is an issue with the wrong sort. One and two bed flats are attractive to BTL investors and developers will prefer them to family homes even in areas, like my old patch in east london, where there is a critical shortage of properties suitable for larger families. By making more units out of the piece of land I expect they are more profitable, yet fall short of meeting local housing need in the round.
    If there were no demand for flats then presumably nobody would let them and BTL investors would lose their shirts buying them.

    Also its worth noting that the share of BTL ownership in the country peaked a few years ago and is not going up anymore, so presumably the vast majority of developments are primarily not going to BTL investors.
    There is also immense pressure on developers to increase density - both from the cost of the land and form the planners.
    There's a lot to be said for densification of households rather than houses.

    In the mid-1980s the average (mean) household size was 2.6. It is now between 2.3 and 2.4.

    The extra requirement (ignoring population growth) of that single change is 2.5 million extra houses.
This discussion has been closed.