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Can the Greens take their 2021 opportunities? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited April 3 in General
imageCan the Greens take their 2021 opportunities? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,560
    test
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    Second.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    edited April 3
    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,443
    No differentiation between England & Wales Greens and the Scottish Greens (who regularly poll in low double figures for the Holyrood list vote)?

    The Holyrood elections are surely a fourth opening for Greens to exploit with them able to play a part in the constitutional future of the UK? Or will they be relegated to the SNP’s useful idiots whose existence should be ignored? Damned when you play the conventional political party game, damned when you don’t.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,966

    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!

    Well the Greens (back in the Ecology party days) used to have two or more leaders . Which I warmed to ! Die vote for them at the time
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509

    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!

    Are you saying it’s a stitch up?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    edited April 3
    10th !!!

    R4: The BBC just caught up with our conversation about the Timpson's new ex-con employee.

    To be fair - good on them for the coverage and naming Timpson.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749
    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    It is an interesting description of the internal dynamics of the local party. I am not sure if I would describe as authoritarian, as that implies top down control in a Stalinist way, while what you describe is bottom up control by local activists. All power to the Soviets! It sounds more like Anarcho-Syndicalism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749
    ydoethur said:

    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!

    Are you saying it’s a stitch up?
    Or PB unravelling, darn it!

    (Easter present sent to the PB funds via the donate tab, keep up the good work Mike)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105
    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,776
    MattW said:

    10th !!!

    R4: The BBC just caught up with our conversation about the Timpson's new ex-con employee.

    To be fair - good on them for the coverage and naming Timpson.

    Where pb.com goes.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509

    No differentiation between England & Wales Greens and the Scottish Greens (who regularly poll in low double figures for the Holyrood list vote)?

    The Holyrood elections are surely a fourth opening for Greens to exploit with them able to play a part in the constitutional future of the UK? Or will they be relegated to the SNP’s useful idiots whose existence should be ignored? Damned when you play the conventional political party game, damned when you don’t.

    Their key target for this time is surely to hold what they have? Six seats (yes, I know one’s lost the whip since) and fourth place in a parliament where margins of power are tight is a good performance.

    Given Salmond is trying to outflank them, it’s not quite straightforward either. But if they can do it, they should be pretty happy and will probably once again have significant influence.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,527
    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509
    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    Plaid Cymru have a similar problem, of course.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,560
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!

    Are you saying it’s a stitch up?
    Or PB unravelling, darn it!

    (Easter present sent to the PB funds via the donate tab, keep up the good work Mike)
    Thanks to you and all the others who have contributed.,
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 14,291

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    I was told 6 months for hernia surgery in Newcastle the other week. I await a letter...
  • NorthCadbollNorthCadboll Posts: 310
    For me it will be interesting to see how well or badly the Scottish Greens perform next month in the Scottish General Election. The Scottish Greens and Sturgeon having fewer than 64 seats between them would be wonderful, especially if Alba is as successful as the UK entry in the Eurovision Song Contest.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not a rally fan, but apparently ExtremeE's current time sheets have teams Rosberg and Hamilton at the top...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 32,220
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    assume private health companies and hospitals can look forward to some growth.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    Plaid Cymru have a similar problem, of course.
    I didn’t realise @Dura_Ace was a member ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    We appear to have three threads running simultaneously!

    Are you saying it’s a stitch up?
    Or PB unravelling, darn it!

    (Easter present sent to the PB funds via the donate tab, keep up the good work Mike)
    Thanks to you and all the others who have contributed.,
    Thanks for the reminder; will do so later today.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,099
    Schools. Another example where SAGE's beloved modelling was completely wrong.

    "Hopefully it will serve as a salient lesson for the next time Downing Street is tempted to place greater value on modelling than real-world data"
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/02/apocalyptic-schools-covid-spike-predicted-scientists-simply/
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 32,220

    For me it will be interesting to see how well or badly the Scottish Greens perform next month in the Scottish General Election. The Scottish Greens and Sturgeon having fewer than 64 seats between them would be wonderful, especially if Alba is as successful as the UK entry in the Eurovision Song Contest.

    For me it will be interesting to see how well or badly the Scottish Greens perform next month in the Scottish General Election. The Scottish Greens and Sturgeon having fewer than 64 seats between them would be wonderful, especially if Alba is as successful as the UK entry in the Eurovision Song Contest.

    Cadboll, it will be either or both are extremely unlikely to happen. Either SNP & Greens get a majority or SNP and ALBA get supermajority.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509
    edited April 3
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    Plaid Cymru have a similar problem, of course.
    I didn’t realise @Dura_Ace was a member ?
    I don’t think Dura Ace being a member of any party is necessarily a problem for it, although I have no doubt he would add muchly to the amusement of branch meetings.

    I do wonder a bit how he reconciles green credentials with his love of classic vehicles and adrenaline junky behaviour. But since he’s funny and well informed and has never to my knowledge lectured me about my own driving habits I’m not bothered about it.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,957
    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,171
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
    They should try and duplicate Lucas' obviously good Brighton operation to Bristol West, Sheffield Central, IoW and Norwich South.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    Plaid Cymru have a similar problem, of course.
    Are you, perhaps, suggesting that an alliance of well-to-do country farmers, Welsh language activists and hard left republicans might be struggling with a ceiling of support? I'm shocked, I must say. Shocked.

    They're still light years ahead of the poor Greens though.

    No differentiation between England & Wales Greens and the Scottish Greens (who regularly poll in low double figures for the Holyrood list vote)?

    The Holyrood elections are surely a fourth opening for Greens to exploit with them able to play a part in the constitutional future of the UK? Or will they be relegated to the SNP’s useful idiots whose existence should be ignored? Damned when you play the conventional political party game, damned when you don’t.

    Poor tartan sock puppets, they suffer from the classic problem of being the junior partner in a coalition, without actually being the junior partner in a coalition - though at least they've not gone down in flames like the UK Lib Dems did. If they do end up going backwards rather than forwards this time, it will be because Salmond's entry into the race has hobbled them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 37,509
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:



    I do wonder a bit how he reconciles green credentials with his love of classic vehicles and adrenaline junky behaviour. But since he’s funny and well informed and has never to my knowledge lectured me about my own driving habits I’m not bothered about it.

    Almost all of my vehicles are almost always in bits. I only drive 2 - 3,000 miles a year at the very most and go nearly everywhere by bicycle.
    Good answer.

    The rest was intended as a compliment :smile:

    Speaking of bicycles, there’s one in the lobby with my name on it. Have a good morning.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,099
    Is this why Trump will win in 2024?


    Matt Lynn on Biden's huge spending plans.

    "A Biden Bust is on the way - and it may arrive a lot sooner than anyone yet realises"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/03/biden-bust-looming/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Out of interest was "tithing" involved?

    This is when local councillors have to donate part of their income to the political

    For Lib Dems for example it is in the Constitution of the English party.

    https://www.libdemvoice.org/10-tithing-not-only-will-i-defend-lib-dem-councillors-but-my-running-mate-and-i-pledged-to-do-it-too-50489.html

    Others do similar.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    edited April 3
    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    This is the Pippa Bartolotti automobiling-green tradition :smile: .

    (I believe she drove a Jag, which was therefore used very little.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749
    Bungs to mates of the government in return for donations? Glad that doesn't happen South of the border 🤐
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    A very good article on the massive improvements in sequencing technology.
    The cost is still dropping like a stone - and as we’re seeing at the end of the pandemic, even the US is recognising how to think about deploying it systematically.
    Will change the world.
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/25/magazine/genome-sequencing-covid-variants.html
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making! Though AIUI the current warm period is expected to last for another 50,000 years - even without taking into account the effects of elevated greenhouse gas levels - so there would appear to be no immediate danger of an ice sheet obliterating most of the country.

    Speaking more broadly, the reason why the position of the German Greens has grown so strong is, of course, down to 1. PR elections and 2. migration into the political mainstream. Our lot are a disparate collection of activists, loosely attached to an anarcho-socialist structure, which appears simultaneously to advocate the distribution of social security benefits generous enough to allow recipients to abandon paid employment and the abolition of economic growth. It's unsurprising that they typically struggle to expand their appeal beyond the small fraction of the electorate whose overriding concern is the Climate Emergency.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455

    No differentiation between England & Wales Greens and the Scottish Greens (who regularly poll in low double figures for the Holyrood list vote)?

    The Holyrood elections are surely a fourth opening for Greens to exploit with them able to play a part in the constitutional future of the UK? Or will they be relegated to the SNP’s useful idiots whose existence should be ignored? Damned when you play the conventional political party game, damned when you don’t.

    I was very surprised that this didn't feature in David's piece. We have a Green Party who are effectively in government in the UK already in that they have a pretty effective veto on Scottish government policy and have had influence on spending priorities in the budget.

    What will they do in May? Alba may be a threat to them given it is a different second vote option for those committed to independence. On the other hand some disillusionment with Nicola might lead other Nats to tend their way. I suspect that they will end up pretty similar to where they are now. It is possible that they will continue to hold the balance of power too. What are they going to do with it?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    Foxy said:

    Bungs to mates of the government in return for donations? Glad that doesn't happen South of the border 🤐
    And will have about as much influence on voting patterns on both sides of it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. Rook, I thought the long term Ice Age/warm period suggestion was that we were overdue an Ice Age?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,247

    Is this why Trump will win in 2024?


    Matt Lynn on Biden's huge spending plans.

    "A Biden Bust is on the way - and it may arrive a lot sooner than anyone yet realises"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/03/biden-bust-looming/

    Jan 6th saw the end to any prospect of Trump winning in 2024. Which is not to say that the door has closed to other right-wing nut jobs.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,247
    Still, he can console himself with the realisation that his long-term career prospects are brighter than Johny’s.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 664
    Foxy said:

    Bungs to mates of the government in return for donations? Glad that doesn't happen South of the border 🤐
    Still a big problem for a party that tries to sell itself as the incorruptible antidote to "" Westmonster". In fact this is really the first time the SNP is not getting a free ride from much of the Scottish media. It does feel that the political wind has changed.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,737

    Is this why Trump will win in 2024?


    Matt Lynn on Biden's huge spending plans.

    "A Biden Bust is on the way - and it may arrive a lot sooner than anyone yet realises"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/03/biden-bust-looming/

    It's the infrastructure phrase of the long economic circle and the US really does need their infrastructure to be refreshed in a lot of places it's frankly embarrassing.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,527
    ydoethur said:



    The rest was intended as a compliment :smile:

    It was received as such. B)

    Although the warmest compliment I have ever been paid on pb.com was NPXMP's observation that he could imagine me commanding a Chekist firing squad.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850

    Mr. Rook, I thought the long term Ice Age/warm period suggestion was that we were overdue an Ice Age?

    It's... complicated. AIUI the Earth would still be ever so gradually cooling if it weren't for anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions, which is what spooked people in the 1970s, when there was quite a lot of clucking about the next Ice Age. OTOH it's suggested that it may take some time for this to tip into another glaciation. Something to do with fluctuations in the Earth's orbit.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 1,250
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
    They should try and duplicate Lucas' obviously good Brighton operation to Bristol West, Sheffield Central, IoW and Norwich South.
    Even in Brighton, the Greens are struggling to make progress outside Caroline Lucas's seat. She has a huge personal following in Pavilion, particularly in an area called Hanover, referred to by locals as Muesli Mountain. But in the other two Brighton seats (Kemptown and Hove) Labour now has large majorities, despite them both being Tory not so long ago. The anti-Conservative vote in these seats is stronger than the pro-Green vote, so people are wary of splitting the anti-Tory vote by going Green. Lucas is also not helped by Greens' running of the local council (they are currently the largest party), which is patchy at best.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    One wonders what effect all of this might have upon the provision of private medicine/medical insurance? If providers are capable of bringing costs down through economies of scale then there could be an upper-middle-class stampede away from the NHS.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105
    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    assume private health companies and hospitals can look forward to some growth.
    My son in law who is due retire in December has an acute knee problem

    He saw the surgeon last week through his employer's bupa scheme and has the £15,000 knee replacement operation in a fortnight

    So yes Malc
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455
    More generally what has Covid done to Green policies? We have had a year now with probably less flying than in the last 50 years. In the early days there were suggestions on here that the sky was bluer with fewer contrails by overflying jets. We have all been driving much less, particularly in the first 6 months. We have been importing less food. Our energy consumption is likely to have been reduced as our offices and shops remain dark and unheated.

    Has any of this had a measurable effect? It may be that this is too short a term but you'd expect something, wouldn't you? What if we all end up working from home a couple of days a week cutting out the commute? What effect might that have? Is white van delivery man a step back or better? Would it be better if he or she drove an electric van?

    I for one have an enhanced appreciation of the countryside that I have spent so long walking in over the last 15 months. Can the Greens use that to seize the agenda?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
    They should try and duplicate Lucas' obviously good Brighton operation to Bristol West, Sheffield Central, IoW and Norwich South.
    Even in Brighton, the Greens are struggling to make progress outside Caroline Lucas's seat. She has a huge personal following in Pavilion, particularly in an area called Hanover, referred to by locals as Muesli Mountain. But in the other two Brighton seats (Kemptown and Hove) Labour now has large majorities, despite them both being Tory not so long ago. The anti-Conservative vote in these seats is stronger than the pro-Green vote, so people are wary of splitting the anti-Tory vote by going Green. Lucas is also not helped by Greens' running of the local council (they are currently the largest party), which is patchy at best.
    Hove is remarkable - captured with a small majority in 2015, converted into a very safe Labour seat in the two GEs fought under Corbyn. Kind of a reverse Mansfield. Kemptown not quite as dramatic, but now held by a Corbynite MP sitting on a comfortable majority. Brighton living up to its Islington-on-Sea reputation...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 5,471
    edited April 3

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making! Though AIUI the current warm period is expected to last for another 50,000 years - even without taking into account the effects of elevated greenhouse gas levels - so there would appear to be no immediate danger of an ice sheet obliterating most of the country.

    Speaking more broadly, the reason why the position of the German Greens has grown so strong is, of course, down to 1. PR elections and 2. migration into the political mainstream. Our lot are a disparate collection of activists, loosely attached to an anarcho-socialist structure, which appears simultaneously to advocate the distribution of social security benefits generous enough to allow recipients to abandon paid employment and the abolition of economic growth. It's unsurprising that they typically struggle to expand their appeal beyond the small fraction of the electorate whose overriding concern is the Climate Emergency.
    Spot on re: your last paragraph. Dura Ace talks of many disparate groups within the party but it's clear to me that the watermelons have the upper hand.

    It's frustrating to see human-concern arguments packaged as green ones. Climate change is used to bash western democracies (the real target) but who is to say whether a change in climate will inconvenience post agricultural revolution humans more than than non-human nature. You hear little talk of stopping deforestation and other habitat destruction and no talk at all of the issue of human overpopulation and measures to counteract it.

    It's a tragedy that deep green naturalists struggle to find a home in the Green Party.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. B, the moving goalposts of predictions don't exactly inspire confidence.

    Remember the global warming enthusiast scientist who reckoned snow in the UK would become a thing of the past, shortly before we had the two coldest and snowiest winters for a century?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    eek said:

    Is this why Trump will win in 2024?


    Matt Lynn on Biden's huge spending plans.

    "A Biden Bust is on the way - and it may arrive a lot sooner than anyone yet realises"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/03/biden-bust-looming/

    It's the infrastructure phrase of the long economic circle and the US really does need their infrastructure to be refreshed in a lot of places it's frankly embarrassing.
    Agreed. A great deal of that money will be productive investment which will lead to improved economic growth.
    Republicans haven’t even begun to work out their messaging on this.
    https://twitter.com/dickersondon/status/1378161609839800322
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288

    Mr. B, the moving goalposts of predictions don't exactly inspire confidence.

    Remember the global warming enthusiast scientist who reckoned snow in the UK would become a thing of the past, shortly before we had the two coldest and snowiest winters for a century?

    They may still be right.
    The cold winters are largely the result of disruption to the polar vortex, which keeps arctic weather in the Arctic.
    You are confusing weather with climate.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 5,471
    edited April 3
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    We don't - the world does. Global problems need global solutions. Reading a pamphlet from my parish council claiming that our village needs to "solve climate change" is risible.

    Stop habitat destruction, start re-wilding en masse and come up with a plan to reduce human footprint on our planet including the appalling pollution. Such things require a global government or at least a powerful agency run for nature, not humans, but whenever I suggest this it doesn't go down well.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    About 10 years ago it was about 4 months from my first (bowel) cancer diagnosis to operation. And five years later it wasn't much longer from diagnosis of prostate cancer to conclusion of radiotherapyi

    All NHS.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,527
    MattW said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    A Greens member writes... it's hard for the party to make progress on a national level because it is a very broad mosque. You've got left-libertarians, straightforward M-L communists, a thankfully very few Trots, animal rights activists, middle aged women who care about litter, intense scientific deep greens, anitnatalists/VHEMs, veganarchists and druids. Keeping that unwieldy and disparate coalition together is a tribute to the leadership but it's hard to see how it goes any further. There is no democratic road to anything worth having. Direct action is the only thing that works.

    We do have by far the highest median level of education of any political party though so we'll comfort ourselves with that.

    This is the Pippa Bartolotti automobiling-green tradition :smile: .

    (I believe she drove a Jag, which was therefore used very little.)
    "Turning drivers into mechanics since 1922."

    I've owned over 100 cars but I've never had one - obviously. Although I've often though an XJS 'ute' would be cool as the flying buttress C pillars very much lend themselves to that style.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 6,923
    DavidL said:

    More generally what has Covid done to Green policies? We have had a year now with probably less flying than in the last 50 years. In the early days there were suggestions on here that the sky was bluer with fewer contrails by overflying jets. We have all been driving much less, particularly in the first 6 months. We have been importing less food. Our energy consumption is likely to have been reduced as our offices and shops remain dark and unheated.

    Has any of this had a measurable effect? It may be that this is too short a term but you'd expect something, wouldn't you? What if we all end up working from home a couple of days a week cutting out the commute? What effect might that have? Is white van delivery man a step back or better? Would it be better if he or she drove an electric van?

    I for one have an enhanced appreciation of the countryside that I have spent so long walking in over the last 15 months. Can the Greens use that to seize the agenda?

    Yes it has.

    But the consensus can't decide whether to shout between "lots of not-emissions yippee !!", or "yes but we are still going to dyeee so you have to live in knitted hemp and we are still banning cars and beefburgers", and no one want to mentionn that we are on a 3% year on year decline for nearly the last decade anyway.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,443
    Douglas has now graduated to long trousers. They’re six inches too long, but still..

    https://twitter.com/dtaylor5633/status/1378256379690037250?s=21
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    About 10 years ago it was about 4 months from my first (bowel) cancer diagnosis to operation. And five years later it wasn't much longer from diagnosis of prostate cancer to conclusion of radiotherapyi

    All NHS.
    That is good news but to be fair mine was all NHS, but under Wales labour which has a terrible record on health
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 36,455
    Nigelb said:

    A very good article on the massive improvements in sequencing technology.
    The cost is still dropping like a stone - and as we’re seeing at the end of the pandemic, even the US is recognising how to think about deploying it systematically.
    Will change the world.
    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/25/magazine/genome-sequencing-covid-variants.html

    Superb article. The business opportunities here are just incalculable and the UK is very, very well placed to take advantage. We need to remain absolutely committed to this even as the virus fades.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 55,317
    Mr. B, aye. 'Weather' is when a global warming enthusiast's prediction turns out to be rubbish.

    If that prediction had been corrected, it'd be cited as evidence of the theory being proven correct, and that the 'climate' had changed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966
    edited April 3

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    About 10 years ago it was about 4 months from my first (bowel) cancer diagnosis to operation. And five years later it wasn't much longer from diagnosis of prostate cancer to conclusion of radiotherapyi

    All NHS.
    That is good news but to be fair mine was all NHS, but under Wales labour which has a terrible record on health
    I had the impression that while organisations like Betsi Cadwallader were 'not very good' (ahem) services outside hospital were good.


    And, for the other weather watchers, snow has been removed from our local forecast; just seems cold and cloudy, except Monday which will cold and sunny. Sleet is a possibility on Tuesday evening Apparently.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    edited April 3
    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    Only, as @Stocky implies, how much Green activism is actually to do with the environment and how much of it is to do with authoritarian socialism and the pleasure of soaking the rich? Climate change is real, but it looks increasingly likely to be solved technologically rather than through telling people to abandon cars and aeroplanes and go back to living in Iron Age roundhouses and cultivating organic vegetables.

    The real, intractable issues we have to grapple with are habitat destruction and overpopulation, and those (especially the latter) are deeply problematic for the left. Who's going to tell people in developing countries to stop chopping down forests and making huge numbers of babies? It's racist-imperialist-colonialist-hypocritical-capitalist oppression - yet howling about all the -ists and -isms in the world won't make these problems go away.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    We don't - the world does. Global problems need global solutions. Reading a pamphlet from my parish council claiming that our village needs to "solve climate change" is risible.

    Stop habitat destruction, start re-wilding en masse and come up with a plan to reduce human footprint on our planet including the appalling pollution. Such things require a global government or at least a powerful agency run for nature, not humans, but whenever I suggest this it doesn't go down well.
    By ‘we’, I meant humanity.
    If the two largest economies in the world rework their energy systems for zero net CO2 generation, the world will follow - if only because such technologies will become cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives.
    The rest is, as you say, complicated.
  • Mr. B, aye. 'Weather' is when a global warming enthusiast's prediction turns out to be rubbish.

    If that prediction had been corrected, it'd be cited as evidence of the theory being proven correct, and that the 'climate' had changed.

    Jesus a climate change denier on this site in 2021, God help us all
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    About 10 years ago it was about 4 months from my first (bowel) cancer diagnosis to operation. And five years later it wasn't much longer from diagnosis of prostate cancer to conclusion of radiotherapyi

    All NHS.
    That is good news but to be fair mine was all NHS, but under Wales labour which has a terrible record on health
    I had the impression that while organisations like Betsi Cadwallader were 'not very good' (ahem) services outside hospital were good.
    We come under Betsi Cadwallader and it has been in special measures

    However, our GP practice has greatly improved under covid as everything is done by telephone and if necessary a specific appointment time at the surgery where you wait in your car and are called straight into the consultation

    I do not see a return to the old way at anytime in the future
  • StockyStocky Posts: 5,471

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    Only, as @Stocky implies, how much Green activism is actually to do with the environment and how much of it is to do with authoritarian socialism and the pleasure of soaking the rich? Climate change is real, but it looks increasingly likely to be solved technologically rather than through telling people to abandon cars and aeroplanes and go back to living in Iron Age roundhouses and cultivating organic vegetables.

    The real, intractable issues we have to grapple with are habitat destruction and overpopulation, and those (especially the latter) are deeply problematic for the left. Who's going to tell people in developing countries to stop chopping down forests and making huge numbers of babies? It's racist-imperialist-colonialist-hypocritical-capitalist oppression - yet howling about all the -ists and -isms in the world won't make these problems go away.
    Well, I'm at the extreme end to be fair. I'm all for patrolling the rainforests with rifles - shooting anyone holding a chainsaw on sight. Ditto any evil fucker who helicopters into Africa to kill and mutilate rhinos.

    The Green Party needs a paramilitary wing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 20,024
    edited April 3
    It is. I'll be so disappointed in this great country that I love if we continue down this softhead performative "patriotism" route. It will make Britain a little less great and me love it a little less.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749
    One people, one Empire, one Leader!
  • StockyStocky Posts: 5,471
    edited April 3
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    We don't - the world does. Global problems need global solutions. Reading a pamphlet from my parish council claiming that our village needs to "solve climate change" is risible.

    Stop habitat destruction, start re-wilding en masse and come up with a plan to reduce human footprint on our planet including the appalling pollution. Such things require a global government or at least a powerful agency run for nature, not humans, but whenever I suggest this it doesn't go down well.
    By ‘we’, I meant humanity.
    If the two largest economies in the world rework their energy systems for zero net CO2 generation, the world will follow - if only because such technologies will become cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives.
    The rest is, as you say, complicated.
    Technology solutions when technology got the planet into this mess are not likely to persuade I'm afraid. See technological slavery by Theodore Kaczynski.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 17,053
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
    They should try and duplicate Lucas' obviously good Brighton operation to Bristol West, Sheffield Central, IoW and Norwich South.
    That was really good post by @IanB2. I suspect that Lucas is winning in Brighton despite a lack of a good ground game.
  • kinabalu said:

    It is. I'll be so disappointed in this great country that I love if we continue down this softhead performative "patriotism" route. It will make Britain a little less great and me love it a little less.
    I’m not at all against schools, government or whoever else flying the flag. I don’t consider it racist or offensive to do so.

    However, I don’t believe not doing it makes you somehow less British than somebody else. Each to their own
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,957
    Nigelb said:

    Stocky said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    We don't - the world does. Global problems need global solutions. Reading a pamphlet from my parish council claiming that our village needs to "solve climate change" is risible.

    Stop habitat destruction, start re-wilding en masse and come up with a plan to reduce human footprint on our planet including the appalling pollution. Such things require a global government or at least a powerful agency run for nature, not humans, but whenever I suggest this it doesn't go down well.
    By ‘we’, I meant humanity.
    If the two largest economies in the world rework their energy systems for zero net CO2 generation, the world will follow - if only because such technologies will become cheaper than the fossil fuel alternatives.
    The rest is, as you say, complicated.
    Can anyone update on: What is the UK Greens approach to China with regard to coal, carbon and human rights?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    Only, as @Stocky implies, how much Green activism is actually to do with the environment and how much of it is to do with authoritarian socialism and the pleasure of soaking the rich? Climate change is real, but it looks increasingly likely to be solved technologically rather than through telling people to abandon cars and aeroplanes and go back to living in Iron Age roundhouses and cultivating organic vegetables.

    The real, intractable issues we have to grapple with are habitat destruction and overpopulation, and those (especially the latter) are deeply problematic for the left. Who's going to tell people in developing countries to stop chopping down forests and making huge numbers of babies? It's racist-imperialist-colonialist-hypocritical-capitalist oppression - yet howling about all the -ists and -isms in the world won't make these problems go away.
    Fertility rates are dropping dramatically in developing countries, but even allowing for population increase, global CO2 and other greenhouse emissions are being driven by the developed world. Our carbon footprints are orders of magnitude more than Malawian subsistence farmers.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,527
    Stocky said:


    The Green Party needs a paramilitary wing.

    I'm down for that.




  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 17,053
    Thanks as always to David for a thoughtful piece. I fear COVID may have set back the green cause in the long-term. The inability to jet off here, there and everywhere seems to have been a big issue for a lot of people. I suspect that efforts to maintain the current levels of air travel for the sake of the environment will fail.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 15,855
    Interesting piece, as David's usually are! I think there's a vacancy for a left-wing environmental party without substantial public dislike (lots of Tories who would never vote Labour would consider voting Green at council level at least, even though the Greens are now well left of Labour) and in a PR or AV system they'd do well, as we shall shortly see in Scotland and maybe London.

    Snags: their commitment to the Compass agenda (progressive parties standing down for each other) ean they're not standing at all next month in lots of places - in my patch I think they're only contesting 1 division out of 8. COP will probably be postponed or cancelled, I gather from various sources. And they really lack a major figurehead - Lucas is the only one who maybe even half the population would have heard of.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 1,250
    edited April 3

    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I sense we’ll see an upswing in the Green vote. Once COVID is out of the way, climate will return to the agenda (and with some new case study data both about the effects and consequences of suspending economic activity especially travel, that we never expected to get).

    There will be young people making the point that they have made sacrifices to protect the older generations from their emergency; now is the time for older people to step up and address the emergency they may face down the line. There will be Corbynites, and some LibDems, looking for a new home.

    The problem I have with the UK Greens is that they are an authoritarian rather than a libertarian party, even in the way they (try to) run themselves before you get on to policy. On matters concerning the climate this is perhaps a consequence of their objectives, but I feel they’d have greater appeal if, beyond climate protection, they were stronger on freedom and and liberty. Caroline Lucas often said the right things, but behind her there are a lot of authoritarian socialists.

    In the last council election they won a seat here, giving them a potential platform on the island, which after all is supposed to be a target of theirs. But when the new councillor realised that internal Green Party policy is that the local party has the right to direct how their representatives must vote on key issues, he promptly resigned and has sat as an Independent. It will be interesting to see if they do any better this time.

    Good morning everyone.
    Round here the opposition on the District Council is "Green & Independent" and although we haven't by any means got the full list of candidates there are certainly some under that title.
    Which could turn out to be difficult, given Mr B2's scenario.
    There are several environmental issues locally which embarrass the ruling Conservatives, both at Distraict and County level. Interestingly I had occasion to speak to a local Cons. councillor the other day on a non-political matter and remarked that I was surprised to find them in; thought they'd have been canvassing and was told that yes they'd been leafletting; did I know if Labour were standing and volunteered that the Greens seemed to be active and it was pity they seemed all over the place on policies!
    I must admit I bit my tongue instead of saying something about a leader who was all over the place on everything; I had other things to do. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

    From an OKC with a sore arm from his second Pfizer vaccination! Bu who doesn't mind at all!
    The other handicap they have is their clueless organisation. As my seat was one in which the LibDems stood down for the Greens in 2019, I thought it would be friendly to offer a bit of help so I turned up at the office they had rented in Newport to volunteer to deliver some leaflets. "I'm happy to deliver some leaflets", I said. "There are some in that box in the corner", the guys says, pointing across the room. Said box contained a mix of two different leaflets, loose and uncounted. "Which one are you delivering at the moment?", I ask. "Take some of each", says the guy, thereby breaking an election 101. "Where do you want me to deliver them?", I ask. He asks where I live. "Anywhere round there will be good, just do where you like". He looks away as if expecting me to go away. "Don't you want to know where I've done?", I ask. So he gives me an email, but he looked sufficiently mystified as to why I would need to report back. So I didn't bother.

    There wasn't any election organisation that I could recognise as a LibDem, and I have been in a lot of election HQs both winnable and very unwinnable, so I know what an organised campaign should look like. If they were using a computer it wasn't obvious. There were no maps, no instructions for volunteers, not even any questions asked of a stranger who had basically walked off the street, to check that I was genuinely offering help rather than spying them out and stealing leaflets. They never checked afterwards that I had delivered anything; I had signed in and provided my contact details, but I have never heard from them again.

    Bear in mind this was supposedly their number two target in the whole of the UK, into which the national Green Party had apparently directed money and help.
    They should try and duplicate Lucas' obviously good Brighton operation to Bristol West, Sheffield Central, IoW and Norwich South.
    Even in Brighton, the Greens are struggling to make progress outside Caroline Lucas's seat. She has a huge personal following in Pavilion, particularly in an area called Hanover, referred to by locals as Muesli Mountain. But in the other two Brighton seats (Kemptown and Hove) Labour now has large majorities, despite them both being Tory not so long ago. The anti-Conservative vote in these seats is stronger than the pro-Green vote, so people are wary of splitting the anti-Tory vote by going Green. Lucas is also not helped by Greens' running of the local council (they are currently the largest party), which is patchy at best.
    Hove is remarkable - captured with a small majority in 2015, converted into a very safe Labour seat in the two GEs fought under Corbyn. Kind of a reverse Mansfield. Kemptown not quite as dramatic, but now held by a Corbynite MP sitting on a comfortable majority. Brighton living up to its Islington-on-Sea reputation...
    Strangely enough, Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Kemptown) is certainly a left-wing firebrand and a bit of a nutter, but he wasn't actually very keen on Corbyn. Peter Kyle (Hove) by contrast is a moderate who the CLP officers tried to get rid of before the last GE. They failed, and he had the last laugh by getting a huge majority and is now pretty untouchable.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105
    tlg86 said:

    Thanks as always to David for a thoughtful piece. I fear COVID may have set back the green cause in the long-term. The inability to jet off here, there and everywhere seems to have been a big issue for a lot of people. I suspect that efforts to maintain the current levels of air travel for the sake of the environment will fail.

    I am sure you are right
  • But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
    Labour should just ignore this kind of stuff.

    As I said above, I’m not in favour of pulling down flags and burning them. I just am against the idea that if you don’t fly a flag or don’t wish to take part, that’s somehow a bad thing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 22,749

    But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
    Labour should just ignore this kind of stuff.

    As I said above, I’m not in favour of pulling down flags and burning them. I just am against the idea that if you don’t fly a flag or don’t wish to take part, that’s somehow a bad thing.
    Yes, I agree. There is nothing wrong with flying the Union Flag, just a bit Blimpish.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105
    Foxy said:

    But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
    Labour should just ignore this kind of stuff.

    As I said above, I’m not in favour of pulling down flags and burning them. I just am against the idea that if you don’t fly a flag or don’t wish to take part, that’s somehow a bad thing.
    Yes, I agree. There is nothing wrong with flying the Union Flag, just a bit Blimpish.
    So it is the same for the EU and Saltire flags then
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 664

    But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
    Granted, but its the compulsory bit that will backfire on the Tories. The unrestrained urge to keep telling people what to do, whether flying flags or obeying lock down will lead to a backlash of some force. If the Tories keep bossing people about, they will- pretty soon- be told where to go.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 1,250
    Looking at this, Hunt's Twitter account features many photos of him wearing a Union Flag mask. I think such masks should be compulsory not just in schools but throughout The Land.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    algarkirk said:

    No.

    Greens need to sort a few things:

    They are today's 'We are all doomed' people - just like their anti nuclear CND predecessors, who more or less vanished once the new doom came along. It is not credible that there is exactly one trendy existential threat at a time.

    They regard people with some interesting views as opponents not friends. The Matt Ridleys and Bjorn Lombergs are marginalised.

    They have huge fundamentalist baggage.

    They make heroes of ghastly celebs who have no intention whatsoever of adopting the lifestyle they espouse and want to compel for others. This is Polly Toynbeeism souped up. As retail politics this is catastrophic. Enquiring minds always want to know what groups really mean.

    Where I live there was a mile of ice above our stone age heads only a few thousand years ago. For all I know global warming is exactly what will prevent that happening again. They are not agnostic enough.

    On the last point, it's nice to see someone advocate a long-term approach to policy making!...
    Actually, that is the point about the climate ‘emergency’ which the header slightly ridicules.
    In the same way as if we were to detect a large asteroid on a collision course in fifty years’ time, we can’t dismiss it simply because the consequences are remote and some of us won’t live long enough to suffer the consequences.
    Similarly, if we’re going to do anything about it, we have to start putting a great deal of resources into dealing with the problem now.
    Only, as @Stocky implies, how much Green activism is actually to do with the environment and how much of it is to do with authoritarian socialism and the pleasure of soaking the rich? Climate change is real, but it looks increasingly likely to be solved technologically rather than through telling people to abandon cars and aeroplanes and go back to living in Iron Age roundhouses and cultivating organic vegetables.

    The real, intractable issues we have to grapple with are habitat destruction and overpopulation, and those (especially the latter) are deeply problematic for the left. Who's going to tell people in developing countries to stop chopping down forests and making huge numbers of babies? It's racist-imperialist-colonialist-hypocritical-capitalist oppression - yet howling about all the -ists and -isms in the world won't make these problems go away.
    Fertility rates are dropping dramatically in developing countries, but even allowing for population increase, global CO2 and other greenhouse emissions are being driven by the developed world. Our carbon footprints are orders of magnitude more than Malawian subsistence farmers.
    There’s also the point that development can, and ought to skip the old technologies - solar, for instance, ought to provide the bulk of Africa’s electric generation.

    But you’re correct that more prosperous countries tend not to breed.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,966

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/02/backlog-is-truly-frightening-former-nhs-chief-warns-of-vital-delays

    If only someone could have predicted that...

    "The combination of a 3-4 month suspension of elective surgery, reduced availability of operating theatre space and reduced throughput on operating lists will greatly lengthen surgical and diagnostics waiting lists. I suspect this productivity will drop by 50% or more for the duration of the coronavirus, so likely to be for 12-24 months. Within a year patients waiting over a year for treatment in England and Scotland will be common, they are already in Northern Ireland and Wales. Within 2 years we will see some patients waiting 24 months. Non surgical specialities including mental health will be similarly affected, though these get less media attention."

    From:https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/17/28-weeks-later-the-coronavirus-aftermath-for-the-nhs-and-its-political-implications/

    (Though I was wrong about a second wave)

    I waited over 2 years for my bi lateral hernia surgery in Wales and long before covid was a issues

    But this is Wales NHS under labour
    Now gone nationwide. 2 year waiting lists will be the norm shortly, and the delays for priority 2 patients with cancer and heart disease alarming too.
    It was 65 weeks from seeing the surgeon to the operation
    About 10 years ago it was about 4 months from my first (bowel) cancer diagnosis to operation. And five years later it wasn't much longer from diagnosis of prostate cancer to conclusion of radiotherapyi

    All NHS.
    That is good news but to be fair mine was all NHS, but under Wales labour which has a terrible record on health
    I had the impression that while organisations like Betsi Cadwallader were 'not very good' (ahem) services outside hospital were good.
    We come under Betsi Cadwallader and it has been in special measures

    However, our GP practice has greatly improved under covid as everything is done by telephone and if necessary a specific appointment time at the surgery where you wait in your car and are called straight into the consultation

    I do not see a return to the old way at anytime in the future
    I believe GP's as a whole are dissatisfied with telephone conversations and want to return to the 'old ways'. I must say I would have though that for many conditions FaceTime was useful; however, I understand it's not considered 'safe'.
  • Foxy said:

    But it works, and it works for a reason. There is little sympathy amongst the wider public for stroppy teens pulling down the flag and burning it. They don't come across as heroic anti-racism activists so much as anti-social vandals. It's not a good look.
    Labour should just ignore this kind of stuff.

    As I said above, I’m not in favour of pulling down flags and burning them. I just am against the idea that if you don’t fly a flag or don’t wish to take part, that’s somehow a bad thing.
    Yes, I agree. There is nothing wrong with flying the Union Flag, just a bit Blimpish.
    So it is the same for the EU and Saltire flags then
    Absolutely.

    I’ve never flown a flag in my life from anywhere and I don’t intend to start. To me it’s all a waste of time
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