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Where’s the strapline, Rishi? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited March 2021 in General
imageWhere’s the strapline, Rishi? – politicalbetting.com

Rishi Sunak set out a reasonably coherent economic strategy for the rest of the parliament at his Budget this week. Not that you’d know, because it was buried well within the speech and neither media nor politicians have sought to engage on that level.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    First.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    2nd.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    A good and thoughtful piece on where we are - thanks @david_herdson
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    edited March 2021
    Thanks for the piece.

    Rishi needs to focus on the consultations wrt the Budget and long-term tax things. "National Debate" required to squeeze the bush fires out of the narrative. £2m media suite indeed.

    On the NHS, I would like to see the National Religion thing lanced somehow - it leaves the Govt negotiating with Mother Theresa and they can't win, rather than employees of a professional service.

    Does not this sudden discovery of what they actually said before, give an only slightly embarrassing out.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Interesting, thanks David. I have to say, I don't think the Tory victory in 2015 can be attributed in anyway to "we're all in this together". To me it was a phrase that received a lot of ridicule. What won the 2015 election for the Tories was, in my opinion, Scotland and the fall in oil prices.

    That's not to say that there isn't a place for slogans. Get Brexit Done worked wonders for the Tories in 2019 and I think the suggestions for Labour in the header are good ones.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
  • Options
    Good morning everyone! An excellent @david_herdson piece as always.

    How can I put this - a third of the cabinet are openly and brazenly in it for themselves, half are clearly and embarrassingly stupid. Which leaves only a small number of people like Sunak who understand both policy and politics.

    The government get away with it for now based on simple reasons:
    1. They delivered Brexit.
    2. We're getting Covid.
    3. Boris is a lad, isn't he?
    4. Annalese Who?

    Their problem is that the first two are transient, and the third will eventually (and rapidly) collapse when people realise the PM isn't wearing a fine suit of clothes but instead they can see his warty cock.

    Unless Brexit is seen to start handing out largesse to the people who needed an economic boost - and quickly - then the "this isn't the Brexit we voted for" mutterings will grow loud. Freeports - enabling cheap imports by recreating EEA conditions and thus shagging local manufacturing - is a feel good headline sellotaped onto a calamity. I have absolutely no doubt that Ben "My SPAD gets paid far more than I do" Houchen will walk the Mayoral election on Teesside, but what then? It isn't sustainable.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Either way they're out of touch.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982
    The real tragedy is that Sunak is stood at that table.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Where’s the strapline Chancellor?

    I put it down just there. It’s gone. Has Priti been having trouble at the Home Office again?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Jonathan said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Either way they're out of touch.
    You write that as though you’re surprised by it.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    edited March 2021

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
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    MattW said:

    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458

    It only needs to be cross party if "it" is a proposal, a broad concept, or even basic comprehension that there is a problem. Happily no such thing exists in reality, so it can stay as a strapline to be wheeled out periodically.

    Care? For the sick and elderly? Naah mate. I'm not paying for that. Until its mine that need it in which case the lack of help IS A DISGRACE.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    They were doing ok until he told everyone they were crap, so maybe advertising does work.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Stop right there. "The Mail says" should be a flag to anyone to question what The Mail says..
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,362

    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.

    If being in government is about serving the nation, you do it, and you do it now, with several years until the next election.

    If being in government is about sitting in the big chair, and double digit poll leads give you the horn, you never do it.

    Prediction: this lot will never do it. Have they even said how they will deal with the obvious artefact of pay dip / pay surge back to normal over last year and this?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    DougSeal said:
    Has Macron backtracked yet? Quasi-effective my arse.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,964
    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    edited March 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very least it varies by area of the country (Scotland, plans in Wales, for free personal care), and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    There may also be a category distinction between Residential Homes and Care Homes, and between different types of incorporation (eg is VAT applicable).

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.

    It is fearsomely complicated, and we were due to pay for everything except 'medical services' in I think all situations, as we had made planned provision a long time ago by keeping a rental property to pay for it in mum's name.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    kjh said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    They were doing ok until he told everyone they were crap, so maybe advertising does work.
    Exactly! The product didn't change.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    A 12.5% pay rise? What are the equivalent numbers in the private sector this year?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    edited March 2021
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very east it varies by area of the country, and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.
    That's interesting, can you expand on that distinction between medical and hotel services? When my grandmother got Alzheimer's c.1992, Woking Borough Council basically said "sell her house and give us the money". We didn't, and moved in with her.

    Do you think it might be different now? I get the impression that once someone has to go into a home, then the costs are met by the recipient if they have assets. And the Tories wanted to allow homes to be kept until the person was deceased.

    EDIT: Just seen the extra bit:

    It is fearsomely complicated, and we were due to pay for everything except 'medical services' in I think all situations, as we had made planned provision a long time ago by keeping a rental property to pay for it in mum's name.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. D, I don't have the stat to hand but I'm going to guess the average pay rise in the private sector has been less than 12.5%.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331

    Mr. D, I don't have the stat to hand but I'm going to guess the average pay rise in the private sector has been less than 12.5%.

    The Unions are looking for a rainbow dividend. They will find it at the end of the rainbow.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Root, the unions are taking the piss.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Mr. D, I don't have the stat to hand but I'm going to guess the average pay rise in the private sector has been less than 12.5%.

    If Johnson wants to maintain the line that NHS are just normal workers then he shouldn't have been gurning on his doorstop while clapping his balls off.

    The NHS workers are the public sector megafauna; Johnson and Sunak are going to get trampled if they don't change tack on this. Also the NHS are the single largest employers in many Purple Wall shit holes...
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    edited March 2021
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very east it varies by area of the country, and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.
    That's interesting, can you expand on that distinction between medical and hotel services? When my grandmother got Alzheimer's c.1992, Woking Borough Council basically said "sell her house and give us the money". We didn't, and moved in with her.

    Do you think it might be different now? I get the impression that once someone has to go into a home, then the costs are met by the recipient if they have assets. And the Tories wanted to allow homes to be kept until the person was deceased.
    Medical Services are NHS type things. They come free wherever you are.
    Personal Care Services are help in getting up, getting dressed, feeding, toileting etc. "Home Help" type things.
    Hotel Services are things like room, lounge space, linen. The stuff that you get if you stay a month at a Hilton :smile: .

    I am not absolutely clear where things like Changing Dressings every day would fit. I'd guess Medical.

    The people with the best information are probably Age Concern. Try the Home and Care section here:
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/information-advice/guides-and-factsheets/

    (Would be quite valuable to have a Header from someone with a fresh eye on this, because you sink without trace.)

    For a number I think Scotland does Free Personal Care, on which they spend £500m a year to service 42k people. Obvs a sample of service users rather than general population average.

  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    Roger said:

    kjh said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    They were doing ok until he told everyone they were crap, so maybe advertising does work.
    Exactly! The product didn't change.
    I don't think they were advertising a 5 quid carafe. It unadvertisable as it would cost more to advertise it than the profit on the product. In any event, you cannot polish a turd.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    A 12.5% pay rise? What are the equivalent numbers in the private sector this year?
    That's part politicking, and part what they always say. If the Govt had offered a personal Caribbean Island and Gin Palace the response would be the same. TU loyalty is to their members only.

    Govt have misjudged this one imo.
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    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,416
    edited March 2021

    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21

    You have a strange definition of weirdos if you think people opposed to getting young people into facemasks for 6 hours a day is the definition. Some might argue its you thats odd especially as deaths will decrease to insignificance from covid
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Work got in the way this week and I spent a lot less time on the budget than I normally would have but there was something about it that really didn't add up. There was frankly rather disappointing growth as we bounce back from Covid, very generous spending programs running to September and a balance in current account spending by the next election. How is this possible? On the tax side there was an increase in CT which got a lot of the headlines but seems to be offset by generous allowances for those who invest in the UK.

    On the IT side there is the fiscal drag that David mentions but there are at least 2 problems with that. Firstly, those who earn over £110k will be barely affected because they don't get personal allowances anyway (and they pay a significant proportion of all of the IT). Secondly, inflation is incredibly low so the "drag" effect is tiny.

    The conclusion may have to await a more detailed analysis in the Sunday papers but the obvious one is that when the Covid related programs run down nothing is going to replace them and current spending is going to fall very sharply. We see a bit of this in the public sector wage freeze and the 1% for nurses but there is a hell of a lot more to come.

    Rishi has played a combination of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy rather well. Can he play Mr Scrooge for 3-4 years of really tight spending up to the next election? Will Boris let him? My guess and hope is that the growth prospects will turn out to be a tad pessimistic giving a little more money for some goodies but the dream of driving the UK on as a scientific powerhouse investing heavily in new technologies and jobs is likely to have been a disappointing casualty of Covid.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very east it varies by area of the country, and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.
    That's interesting, can you expand on that distinction between medical and hotel services? When my grandmother got Alzheimer's c.1992, Woking Borough Council basically said "sell her house and give us the money". We didn't, and moved in with her.

    Do you think it might be different now? I get the impression that once someone has to go into a home, then the costs are met by the recipient if they have assets. And the Tories wanted to allow homes to be kept until the person was deceased.
    Medical Services are NHS type things. They come free wherever you are.
    Personal Care Services are help in getting up, getting dressed, feeding, toileting etc. "Home Help" type things.
    Hotel Services are things like room, lounge space, linen. The stuff that you get if you stay a month at a Hilton :smile: .

    I am not absolutely clear where things like Changing Dressings every day would fit. I'd guess Medical.

    The people with the best information are probably Age Concern. Try the Home and Care section here:
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/information-advice/guides-and-factsheets/

    (Would be quite valuable to have a Header from someone with a fresh eye on this.)

    Thanks. The impression I got during the 2017 election was that any care received at home was paid for by the state. At the very least, by definition no one is being forced to sell their home to pay for it.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Never buy retail.. go to an auction.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Doesn't that make it worse? Sounds horrible. Which private donors? It's got Immelda Marcos written all over it.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Doesn't that make it worse? Sounds horrible. Which private donors? It's got Immelda Marcos written all over it.
    Remember it is the Daily Mail..it has an agenda....
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    edited March 2021
    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very east it varies by area of the country, and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.
    That's interesting, can you expand on that distinction between medical and hotel services? When my grandmother got Alzheimer's c.1992, Woking Borough Council basically said "sell her house and give us the money". We didn't, and moved in with her.

    Do you think it might be different now? I get the impression that once someone has to go into a home, then the costs are met by the recipient if they have assets. And the Tories wanted to allow homes to be kept until the person was deceased.
    Medical Services are NHS type things. They come free wherever you are.
    Personal Care Services are help in getting up, getting dressed, feeding, toileting etc. "Home Help" type things.
    Hotel Services are things like room, lounge space, linen. The stuff that you get if you stay a month at a Hilton :smile: .

    I am not absolutely clear where things like Changing Dressings every day would fit. I'd guess Medical.

    The people with the best information are probably Age Concern. Try the Home and Care section here:
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/information-advice/guides-and-factsheets/

    (Would be quite valuable to have a Header from someone with a fresh eye on this.)

    Thanks. The impression I got during the 2017 election was that any care received at home was paid for by the state. At the very least, by definition no one is being forced to sell their home to pay for it.
    Aside: if you have parents getting on start thinking early. Basically we kept 30k of income in here name on top of pensions etc, which meant we could cover bills in a care home without risking big family arguments. The downside is that we now face a fairly significant iHT bill * , but that was the strategy.

    And Charity run homes avoid (I think) VAT.

    * Not particularly helped by passing away 6.5 years after making some major lifetime gifts. But it's a nice problem to have.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,964

    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21

    You have a strange definition of weirdos if you think people opposed to getting young people into facemasks for 6 hours a day is the definition. Some might argue its you thats odd especially as deaths will decrease to insignificance from covid
    There are no weirdos in the anti mask ‘movement’? If you say so.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Never buy retail.. go to an auction.
    Yeah, but we were young, in love and fairly skint!
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,573

    Roger said:

    kjh said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    They were doing ok until he told everyone they were crap, so maybe advertising does work.
    Exactly! The product didn't change.
    I don't think they were advertising a 5 quid carafe. It unadvertisable as it would cost more to advertise it than the profit on the product. In any event, you cannot polish a turd.
    Oh yes they were. That is exactly what they were doing and successfully as well. Why do you not think it would be profitable? It was to a low end market which went pear shaped when he effectively insulted his customers by telling them they were buying crap. Do you not remember the adverts?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372
    MattW said:

    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458

    ‘Cross-party’ means across the Tory party ?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    That means they want about 4-5%.

    If they asked for that straight out, however, they would get 1.2%.

    Similarly, I suspect the government will be willing to bend on this, but they want to be able to blame nurses and their representatives for pushing up the bill. ‘Well, don’t blame us for the fact there’s no money left. We tried to keep it under control but those people stopped us.’

    It’s all rather childish but it suits both sides so doubtless they will continue posturing for some time yet.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394
    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458

    ‘Cross-party’ means across the Tory party ?
    I don't think so after the 2017 experience.

    All hands need to be seen to be dipped in the blood.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    It seems to be mainly Tories (if not Tory Chancellors) who hate the triple lock. In practice it has helped pensioners by about 4 percentage points (so a single pensioner is about £4 a week better off now than they would have been under the old system). What's that in rolls of posh wallpaper?

    Social care is blamed (wrongly imo) for almost losing the 2017 election which is probably why no-one is keen to go near it and why the claimed cross-party talks have not taken place.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited March 2021

    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21

    You have a strange definition of weirdos if you think people opposed to getting young people into facemasks for 6 hours a day is the definition. Some might argue its you thats odd especially as deaths will decrease to insignificance from covid
    There are no weirdos in the anti mask ‘movement’? If you say so.
    I think it’s fair to say that while we all know there are plenty of weirdos in the anti mask movement (Young, Woolhouse etc) there are also plenty of people in the anti-mask movement who are not weirdos.

    It also seems to me to be entirely legitimate to question whether a cheap face covering designed to stop viral load for short contacts in aseptic well ventilated spaces will be as effective if worn for long periods almost certainly over several days in crowded and poorly ventilated rooms.

    Finally, it’s reasonable to ask how significant a problem it will cause in terms of lost communication especially for the deaf.

    I know there was a study on this launched in Scotland last November - do you know if it ever reported?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    Excellent piece, I totally agree.

    The budget revealed that Rishi wants to keep enriching pensioners, but it’s austerity for everyone else.

    Since we went *in* to the pandemic with a terrible deal for workers and younger people, it’s a maddening prospect to think it must continue.

    Labour don’t seem to grasped this.

    The interesting thing is, the older voters don't necessarily vote based on things that affect them directly. They care about their children and grandchildren. If Labour were to question the wisdom of the triple-lock, then they need to develop the narrative as to why it's a problem and unfair on younger people.

    What the Tories proposed around social care in 2017 was absolutely fine and a substantial improvement on the current situation. But they failed to do the ground work.

    Ideally, you want the media to highlight the unfairness of the situation and then you can say how your going to fix it. Right now, I don't think people realise the inequality between people in care homes (you pay, if you have wealth over £23,000) and people receiving care at home (the state pays irrespective of your wealth). Similarly, the media aren't asking why it's right that the triple-lock is still in place despite the current circumstances. If Labour are to tackle this issue, they need some help (perhaps the Guardian/Mirror could assist) to get people thinking that it is a problem that needs solving.
    That's last para is way off imo.

    At the very east it varies by area of the country, and by category of care services (eg personal / medical). In Care Homes there is a category distinction between (at least) 'Medical Services', 'Hotel Services' - maybe also 'Personal Care Services'.

    I dealt with this for my mum in the last 2 years, so am reasonably up to date.
    That's interesting, can you expand on that distinction between medical and hotel services? When my grandmother got Alzheimer's c.1992, Woking Borough Council basically said "sell her house and give us the money". We didn't, and moved in with her.

    Do you think it might be different now? I get the impression that once someone has to go into a home, then the costs are met by the recipient if they have assets. And the Tories wanted to allow homes to be kept until the person was deceased.
    Medical Services are NHS type things. They come free wherever you are.
    Personal Care Services are help in getting up, getting dressed, feeding, toileting etc. "Home Help" type things.
    Hotel Services are things like room, lounge space, linen. The stuff that you get if you stay a month at a Hilton :smile: .

    I am not absolutely clear where things like Changing Dressings every day would fit. I'd guess Medical.

    The people with the best information are probably Age Concern. Try the Home and Care section here:
    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/services/information-advice/guides-and-factsheets/

    (Would be quite valuable to have a Header from someone with a fresh eye on this.)

    Thanks. The impression I got during the 2017 election was that any care received at home was paid for by the state. At the very least, by definition no one is being forced to sell their home to pay for it.
    Aside: if you have parents getting on start thinking early. Basically we kept 30k of income in here name on top of pensions etc, which meant we could cover bills in a care home without risking big family arguments. The downside is that we now face a fairly significant iHT bill * , but that was the strategy.

    And Charity run homes avoid (I think) VAT.

    * Not particularly helped by passing away 6.5 years after making some major lifetime gifts. But it's a nice problem to have.
    My sister and I are fairly close-knit so I'm not too worried about falling out (she's had everything anyway!).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458

    ‘Cross-party’ means across the Tory party ?
    I don't think so after the 2017 experience.

    All hands need to be seen to be dipped in the blood.
    Hancock said at his press conference yesterday that there had been cross party discussions and indeed contributions pre Covid but admitted that since then things had drifted. He referred to his white paper last month and promised a bill "shortly" but that was about it.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    MattW said:

    I note that Liz Kendall is complaining about not being consulted about Social Care, having been in position since ... April 2020.

    Politically this needs to be cross-party.

    https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1367391139624595458

    ‘Cross-party’ means across the Tory party ?
    I don't think so after the 2017 experience.

    All hands need to be seen to be dipped in the blood.
    Of course.
    But the impression I get is that is the first priority - which might then make getting a true cross-party consensus that bit more difficult.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,006
    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    A 12.5% pay rise? What are the equivalent numbers in the private sector this year?
    That's part politicking, and part what they always say. If the Govt had offered a personal Caribbean Island and Gin Palace the response would be the same. TU loyalty is to their members only.

    Govt have misjudged this one imo.
    You do wonder if inflation was 4. 7% and they'd been offered 5% there wouldn't be this fuss. It could just be a "small numbers" problem.

    Instead of a consolidated increase I'd find some money for a bonus and take it out of the apparently limitless Corona fund.

    I am wondering if the government proposal to the review body is a negotiating ploy, the body will suggest a bit more and the Govt will say "oh OK then"

    But 12.5% isn't completely unusual, PCS asked for 10% at the DWP last year.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529
    ydoethur said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    That means they want about 4-5%.

    If they asked for that straight out, however, they would get 1.2%.

    Similarly, I suspect the government will be willing to bend on this, but they want to be able to blame nurses and their representatives for pushing up the bill. ‘Well, don’t blame us for the fact there’s no money left. We tried to keep it under control but those people stopped us.’

    It’s all rather childish but it suits both sides so doubtless they will continue posturing for some time yet.
    The government's approach is always to take the money from elsewhere in the NHS. So with staff being about 70% of NHS costs, a bigger payrise means vacancy freezes elsewhere. I have seen it all before.

    The NHS is effectively a monopoly employer. Market forces work only by voting with your feet. I have been headhunted for NZ again this week, if I were 10 years younger you wouldn't see me for dust.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I think there was a very clear overriding objective - boot the pain down the road long enough to keep Sunak in the running to succeed Johnson.

    So far, so good.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,394

    MattW said:

    RobD said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    A 12.5% pay rise? What are the equivalent numbers in the private sector this year?
    That's part politicking, and part what they always say. If the Govt had offered a personal Caribbean Island and Gin Palace the response would be the same. TU loyalty is to their members only.

    Govt have misjudged this one imo.
    You do wonder if inflation was 4. 7% and they'd been offered 5% there wouldn't be this fuss. It could just be a "small numbers" problem.

    Instead of a consolidated increase I'd find some money for a bonus and take it out of the apparently limitless Corona fund.

    I am wondering if the government proposal to the review body is a negotiating ploy, the body will suggest a bit more and the Govt will say "oh OK then"

    But 12.5% isn't completely unusual, PCS asked for 10% at the DWP last year.
    Interesting to compare with various groups in the 1970s.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    edited March 2021
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Ratner's error was not that he told the truth but that he insulted his customers. Arguably the Conservatives made the same mistake under John Major, the LibDems under Nick Clegg and it is commonplace here that Labour are still doing so.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited March 2021
    O/t but the Test Match stats chap has just pointed out that 'England have had 70 consecutive partnerships without a stand of 50 or more.'

    Although two Essex men are doing their best (Yes, I know Foakes now plays for Surrey but he's a Colchester lad, and if Foster hadn't been in place he'd have stayed at Essex.)


    Edit: serves me right for tempting fate!
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,331
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Never buy retail.. go to an auction.
    Yeah, but we were young, in love and fairly skint!
    .. all the more reasonable to go to an auction 3 x better at least for the same money .. the dealers make a fortune on jewellery.. but you can beat them at an auction. I bought a lovely ring for my now wife.. ok I was in my late in my 50s and a widower and what I paid was about a quarter of what I would have paid in a shop..
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    ydoethur said:

    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21

    You have a strange definition of weirdos if you think people opposed to getting young people into facemasks for 6 hours a day is the definition. Some might argue its you thats odd especially as deaths will decrease to insignificance from covid
    There are no weirdos in the anti mask ‘movement’? If you say so.
    I think it’s fair to say that while we all know there are plenty of weirdos in the anti mask movement (Young, Woolhouse etc) there are also plenty of people in the anti-mask movement who are not weirdos.

    It also seems to me to be entirely legitimate to question whether a cheap face covering designed to stop viral load for short contacts in aseptic well ventilated spaces will be as effective if worn for long periods almost certainly over several days in crowded and poorly ventilated rooms.

    Finally, it’s reasonable to ask how significant a problem it will cause in terms of lost communication especially for the deaf.

    I know there was a study on this launched in Scotland last November - do you know if it ever reported?
    Do any reports ever emerge in Scotland? Unless they show the Glorious Leader in a good light, natch...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    That means they want about 4-5%.

    If they asked for that straight out, however, they would get 1.2%.

    Similarly, I suspect the government will be willing to bend on this, but they want to be able to blame nurses and their representatives for pushing up the bill. ‘Well, don’t blame us for the fact there’s no money left. We tried to keep it under control but those people stopped us.’

    It’s all rather childish but it suits both sides so doubtless they will continue posturing for some time yet.
    The government's approach is always to take the money from elsewhere in the NHS. So with staff being about 70% of NHS costs, a bigger payrise means vacancy freezes elsewhere. I have seen it all before.

    The NHS is effectively a monopoly employer. Market forces work only by voting with your feet. I have been headhunted for NZ again this week, if I were 10 years younger you wouldn't see me for dust.
    Know how you feel Foxy, as it’s much the same in education, given the huge control the DfE have even over private schools.

    It’s also why I’m pondering options to get out. This just isn’t worth the hassle to be bossed about by crooks at the DfE and abused by the likes of Roger and Topping.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    Stop right there. "The Mail says" should be a flag to anyone to question what The Mail says..
    Standard response to the Mail revealing inconvenient truths about Boris is to play the small Japanese boy, not the ball: to denigrate the Mail rather than deny the story.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I think there was a very clear overriding objective - boot the pain down the road long enough to keep Sunak in the running to succeed Johnson.

    So far, so good.
    The strategy there is quite excellent, the tactics rather less so. The complaints of the nurses is only the start of a very long road of pain which is in his figures but was somehow missing from the speech.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Ratner's error was not that he told the truth but that he insulted his customers. Arguably the Conservatives made the same mistake under John Major, the LibDems under Nick Clegg and it is commonplace here that Labour are still doing so.
    Sometimes the truth is unpalatable, or even insulting. Which is why politicians are particularly willing to lie.

    The truth is that that there is no turning back the clock, either on the outcome of the Brexit referendum, or to to a period of thriving towns based on manufacturing jobs on the old coalfields.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking of Ratner, Sumption now reduced to a z list celebrity and being lauded by internet weirdos.
    https://twitter.com/mnrrntt/status/1368117605379215363?s=21

    You have a strange definition of weirdos if you think people opposed to getting young people into facemasks for 6 hours a day is the definition. Some might argue its you thats odd especially as deaths will decrease to insignificance from covid
    There are no weirdos in the anti mask ‘movement’? If you say so.
    I think it’s fair to say that while we all know there are plenty of weirdos in the anti mask movement (Young, Woolhouse etc) there are also plenty of people in the anti-mask movement who are not weirdos.

    It also seems to me to be entirely legitimate to question whether a cheap face covering designed to stop viral load for short contacts in aseptic well ventilated spaces will be as effective if worn for long periods almost certainly over several days in crowded and poorly ventilated rooms.

    Finally, it’s reasonable to ask how significant a problem it will cause in terms of lost communication especially for the deaf.

    I know there was a study on this launched in Scotland last November - do you know if it ever reported?
    Do any reports ever emerge in Scotland? Unless they show the Glorious Leader in a good light, natch...
    Well, in this case I think they were meant to do the research over the end of the term and the start of this term. So I will understand if the answer is ‘no...’
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    O/t but the Test Match stats chap has just pointed out that 'England have had 70 consecutive partnerships without a stand of 50 or more.'

    Although two Essex men are doing their best (Yes, I know Foakes now plays for Surrey but he's a Colchester lad, and if Foster hadn't been in place he'd have stayed at Essex.)


    Edit: serves me right for tempting fate!

    The position is so hopeless I am not even going to blame you for that. A second humiliating defeat in a row.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Never buy retail.. go to an auction.
    Yeah, but we were young, in love and fairly skint!
    .. all the more reasonable to go to an auction 3 x better at least for the same money .. the dealers make a fortune on jewellery.. but you can beat them at an auction. I bought a lovely ring for my now wife.. ok I was in my late in my 50s and a widower and what I paid was about a quarter of what I would have paid in a shop..
    Genuine question from someone who's never been to an auction -- how do you know when to stop bidding and not end up paying above the retail price?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    DavidL said:

    O/t but the Test Match stats chap has just pointed out that 'England have had 70 consecutive partnerships without a stand of 50 or more.'

    Although two Essex men are doing their best (Yes, I know Foakes now plays for Surrey but he's a Colchester lad, and if Foster hadn't been in place he'd have stayed at Essex.)


    Edit: serves me right for tempting fate!

    The position is so hopeless I am not even going to blame you for that. A second humiliating defeat in a row.
    I think it is fair to say that despite a bright start this has not been England’s best performance away from home.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.

    OAPs are a large, ever-expanding, segment of the population, that also votes more consistently than all the others. Labour wouldn't dare get rid of the triple lock.

    If Labour wants to win another election then it's going to have to demonstrate that it can give pensioners a better blow job than the Tories. Free personal care a la Scotland, restoring the free TV licence handout, ramping up Winter fuel payments, and shifting more (or even all) of the burden of paying for residential care from individuals to the general taxpayer. Do that and formulate a halfway plausible mechanism to pay for it (perhaps another 5% hike in Corporation Tax, shove the higher and additional rates of income tax up by 5p each, I've not done the maths but you get the general idea) and bingo - watch the arthritic troughers hobble over to your side.

    In crude terms, get about 2,500 olds in every constituency to switch Con-to-Lab and that's the Government's majority erased and Starmer into No.10. Why wouldn't they at least try?
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    edited March 2021

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    edited March 2021

    A good and thoughtful piece on where we are - thanks @david_herdson

    Agreed.

    There's a further point that David doesn't bring out - Rishi has used his intelligence to produce a set of figures that project a relatively good (in the circumstances) fiscal and financial outlook for the country, with relatively little of the widely expected (and indeed officially trailed) increases in tax - but he's done so by a combination of assumptions that go well beyond merely optimistic, and hidden pain in terms of an Austerity II that is implied by the forward spending totals for government and councils, once you get beyond health and education.

    As and when real economics doesn't live up to the assumptions, and when government actually needs to implement these spending cuts yet still hasn't done "enough" in terms of balancing the books, they may regret not making more of the opportunity the very unusual current circumstances present to be more radical. That higher rate pensions tax relief, CGT lower than IT, and the pensions triple lock (and indeed the stamp duty holiday) continue unscathed looks like a big mistake.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I think there was a very clear overriding objective - boot the pain down the road long enough to keep Sunak in the running to succeed Johnson.

    So far, so good.
    The strategy there is quite excellent, the tactics rather less so. The complaints of the nurses is only the start of a very long road of pain which is in his figures but was somehow missing from the speech.
    Yes, the projections of the deficit disappearing by the next election due to economic bounceback and miniscule fiscal drag is not plausible.

    Either a plan for austerity, or an admission that the deficit will be substantially bigger for the rest of the Parliament would be more honest. Sunak knows this of course, but wants to pretend otherwise, knowing that his best chance is a consumer boom.

    The Roaring Twenties were a US phenomenon, a country unscathed by WW1, not a UK or European one. Not just us, but all the European empires were skint then and having an economically grim time. It was the mid and late Thirties that our economy boomed, while America was in its Great Depression.


  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    Yes, but with that compounded annually it is not tolerable Indefinitely, and of course the rising proportion of pensioners.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    Indeed. You wouldn't even need to abolish the triple-lock; one option is to switch from the highest to the middle value; another would be to use, say, a 3-year average (though given the depth of the recession, compounding 2.5% would probably still be too generous).
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    PercyPunterPercyPunter Posts: 5
    edited March 2021
    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    To be fair we're only JUST starting to start to begin to emerge from the worst crisis since WWII. I think this was the time for a pragmatic budget, which is what Rishi delivered.

    Wait until at least another 12 months before having the air to breathe life into some grand strategies.

    I like this Government's pragmatism. And I think they're right not to pay nurses more than a 1% pay rise. This isn't the time for sentimentality. We will need to pay for their generosity on furloughs etc.

    But for betting purposes I think Labour will score some success with this and that 13% Cons lead may be the last time we see such a large one for a while. People are happy to say they'd like to pay nurses more money. Until they're made to pay for it out of their own pocket. But it sounds good and it's fertile Labour territory. Maybe some betting ops out of this for the May elections.
  • Options
    Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,524
    edited March 2021

    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.

    I think Labour needs a more imaginative solution than just getting rid of the triple lock. The state pension on its own is very modest, and somewhere between a third and a quarter of all pensioners live on it alone. How many on here could live on c. £9000 a year? These pensioners (largely women, I suspect) are the least likely to have other assets (including property). So Labour should seek to continue to increase the state pension in order to protect those (probably a diminishing number) who have no other source of income.

    The more radical solution, therefore, is to find ways of increasing revenue from the two thirds of pensioners who can afford to pay more, rather than the quarter/third for whom the triple lock has slightly improved things. A combination of taxation and NI measures could achieve this, or some form of wealth/property/land value tax. So I'm agreeing that the 'pensioner bill' needs to be reduced, but this should be done in a way that improves the lot of the poorest pensioners rather than making them even worse off.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I think there was a very clear overriding objective - boot the pain down the road long enough to keep Sunak in the running to succeed Johnson.

    So far, so good.
    The strategy there is quite excellent, the tactics rather less so. The complaints of the nurses is only the start of a very long road of pain which is in his figures but was somehow missing from the speech.
    Yes, the projections of the deficit disappearing by the next election due to economic bounceback and miniscule fiscal drag is not plausible.

    Either a plan for austerity, or an admission that the deficit will be substantially bigger for the rest of the Parliament would be more honest. Sunak knows this of course, but wants to pretend otherwise, knowing that his best chance is a consumer boom.

    The Roaring Twenties were a US phenomenon, a country unscathed by WW1, not a UK or European one. Not just us, but all the European empires were skint then and having an economically grim time. It was the mid and late Thirties that our economy boomed, while America was in its Great Depression.


    I suspect it was about the last throw of the dice for the 'people with plenty of family money' in the UK. If you didn't have money, then .......
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,054

    Scott_xP said:
    The Mail this morning says that private donors *did* pay for the redecoration, but that Boris has tried to cover it up.
    I find that even more concerning than if it were paid for out of the public purse. One is mere profligacy, the other "looks like" corruption. Cash for questions? Cash for honours? Heaven forbid, Mr Johnson would reward his sponsors. All I am saying is if it"looks like" something the dog deposited on the pavement, it probably emits a malodor.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,121
    It's crystal clear to me what Labour's line should be. Balance the books, yes, but this time the broadest shoulders really should bear the burden. Tax the arse off those who can afford to pay. Details tbc.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    Yes, but with that compounded annually it is not tolerable Indefinitely, and of course the rising proportion of pensioners.
    Well, of course we do not know what would replace the triple lock but so far it has made very little difference.

    I fear its critics have misunderstood both the economics and the politics. The political consideration is not to gold-plate Tory voters but to avoid the political embarrassment of Gordon Brown's 75p rise.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    That irrelevance may be tested if we are about to have some inflation over 3%. If you are going to amend the triple lock, the time to do it is now, for the very point you make.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    An opposition leader without a cause can sound pretty hollow. It's not rocket science. Every advertiser faced with a product to sell uses the same techniques. Look for USPs. Get yourself noticed. Be original be creative. Look what your competitors are doing......No one needs an ideology just get an identity and give people a good feeling about what you're offering. Spend £88 a quarter on 'Campaign'. Some great ideas around and get stealing.....

    Difficult to use advertising to make people buy stuff that's crap. Ask Ratner
    Ratner had a very successful business* even though some of his products were crap. Indeed there is a thriving trade in crap across many sectors, especially in politics.

    The key though is to keep the truth veiled. Ratners error was to tell the truth.

    *indeed Mrs Foxys engagement ring came from Ratners in Tooting Broadway.
    Never buy retail.. go to an auction.
    Yeah, but we were young, in love and fairly skint!
    .. all the more reasonable to go to an auction 3 x better at least for the same money .. the dealers make a fortune on jewellery.. but you can beat them at an auction. I bought a lovely ring for my now wife.. ok I was in my late in my 50s and a widower and what I paid was about a quarter of what I would have paid in a shop..
    Of course! But you neglect the opportunity cost. If in 1988 I had suggested that to Mrs Foxy, I suspect I would have remained single! That ring from Ratners has provided great value for 33 years. The value is far more than the monetary value.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    Yes, but with that compounded annually it is not tolerable Indefinitely, and of course the rising proportion of pensioners.
    Well, of course we do not know what would replace the triple lock but so far it has made very little difference.

    I fear its critics have misunderstood both the economics and the politics. The political consideration is not to gold-plate Tory voters but to avoid the political embarrassment of Gordon Brown's 75p rise.
    Yes, hence my point about politicians avoiding unpalatable truths. Far more comfortable to keep the lie going a bit longer.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    kinabalu said:

    It's crystal clear to me what Labour's line should be. Balance the books, yes, but this time the broadest shoulders really should bear the burden. Tax the arse off those who can afford to pay. Details tbc.

    No. Labour's line should be to pay off debt using economic growth not austerity, and take every opportunity to remind people of the squillions of Brexit dividend promised by Conservatives.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,054
    kinabalu said:

    It's crystal clear to me what Labour's line should be. Balance the books, yes, but this time the broadest shoulders really should bear the burden. Tax the arse off those who can afford to pay. Details tbc.

    The problem here is the media narrative would be Tories give you free stuff, Labour just take away your hard earned. It's a difficult conundrum to beat.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,242
    edited March 2021

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    That irrelevance may be tested if we are about to have some inflation over 3%. If you are going to amend the triple lock, the time to do it is now, for the very point you make.
    That depends what replaces the triple lock. If it is the measure which turns out to rise as fast or even faster than the triple lock, then what? And below-inflation rises will create more problems.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,529

    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.

    I think Labour needs a more imaginative solution than just getting rid of the triple lock. The state pension on its own is very modest, and somewhere between a third and a quarter of all pensioners live on it alone. How many on here could live on c. £9000 a year? These pensioners (largely women, I suspect) are the least likely to have other assets (including property). So Labour should seek to continue to increase the state pension in order to protect those (probably a diminishing number) who have no other source of income.

    The more radical solution, therefore, is to find ways of increasing revenue from the two thirds of pensioners who can afford to pay more, rather than the quarter/third for whom the triple lock has slightly improved things. A combination of taxation and NI measures could achieve this, or some form of wealth/property/land value tax. So I'm agreeing that the 'pensioner bill' needs to be reduced, but this should be done in a way that improves the lot of the poorest pensioners rather than making them even worse off.
    Yes, I could go along with that. NI for pensioners (or rolling it into Income tax) would be a good start. Not least now that retirement is not compulsory, many pensioners are continuing working*.

    *Incidentally a great example of Ed Davey policy making in the coalition.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,121

    kinabalu said:

    It's crystal clear to me what Labour's line should be. Balance the books, yes, but this time the broadest shoulders really should bear the burden. Tax the arse off those who can afford to pay. Details tbc.

    No. Labour's line should be to pay off debt using economic growth not austerity, and take every opportunity to remind people of the squillions of Brexit dividend promised by Conservatives.
    Yes, I like it. But by balance the books I mean the deficit. They have to do this in order not to be smeared as same old Labour, living on the never never.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    "But healthcare staff reacted with anger at the plan. The Royal College of Nursing called the rise "pitiful" and started preparing for strike action, saying that its members should get 12.5% instead."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56301981

    A 12.5% pay rise? What are the equivalent numbers in the private sector this year?
    0% if you are lucky
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,045
    Foxy - or you could increase income tax.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,054
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I do think that this budget should have been used to end the triple lock once and for all. It was never a good policy but it is now deeply immoral as well as unaffordable. This is really David's point: there was no clear narrative or overriding objective. If your position is that the government has no more money (which is fair enough) spending more of it on pensioners whilst cutting the real wages of those in work as well as taxing them more is just wrong.

    I said many months ago that the triple lock had to end. The massive efforts made to beat the Covid virus have very largely been to protect those in the age group benefitting from the triple lock. It is only fair that they make a significant contribution to getting us out of the financial hole that has caused. And Rishi could have got away with now - because it is equitable.

    Once the economy starts coming back to life, it make it more difficult to make that case, politically. Meanwhile the Himalayan range of debt still sits there. Rishi needed to be braver.
    The triple lock is almost irrelevant. As I said earlier, it means single pensioners are four pounds a week better off than they would have been under the old arrangements. £4.
    Yes, but with that compounded annually it is not tolerable Indefinitely, and of course the rising proportion of pensioners.
    Well, of course we do not know what would replace the triple lock but so far it has made very little difference.

    I fear its critics have misunderstood both the economics and the politics. The political consideration is not to gold-plate Tory voters but to avoid the political embarrassment of Gordon Brown's 75p rise.
    Yes, hence my point about politicians avoiding unpalatable truths. Far more comfortable to keep the lie going a bit longer.
    How long can Sunak keep "spaffing" the cash ( magic money tree, money) on job retention schemes? I reckon once the money stops, the illusion of a v shaped recovery, as everyone spends their borrowed money on new houses and their redundancy cash on new cars and holidays, continues for no more than a year. Then the whole house of cards collapses.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    I think the triple lock is ridiculous but I also think the Tories are trapped by their voting coalition; they tried to reform it in GE2017 and lost their majority.

    I think they should be brave and do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do, but I doubt they'll risk it.

    Getting rid of it is one positive a Labour Government might be able to deliver.

    I think Labour needs a more imaginative solution than just getting rid of the triple lock. The state pension on its own is very modest, and somewhere between a third and a quarter of all pensioners live on it alone. How many on here could live on c. £9000 a year? These pensioners (largely women, I suspect) are the least likely to have other assets (including property). So Labour should seek to continue to increase the state pension in order to protect those (probably a diminishing number) who have no other source of income.

    The more radical solution, therefore, is to find ways of increasing revenue from the two thirds of pensioners who can afford to pay more, rather than the quarter/third for whom the triple lock has slightly improved things. A combination of taxation and NI measures could achieve this, or some form of wealth/property/land value tax. So I'm agreeing that the 'pensioner bill' needs to be reduced, but this should be done in a way that improves the lot of the poorest pensioners rather than making them even worse off.
    Why should pensioners pay any more tax than people who are working, they have paid it for up to 50 years and therefore earned what little they have.
    I have read some bollox on here but that drivel takes the biscuit.
This discussion has been closed.