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Labour dis-United? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,168
edited February 2021 in General
imageLabour dis-United? – politicalbetting.com

Of all the elections being contested on May 6, one of the easiest to call should have been the Liverpool mayoral race. On both previous occasions, Labour won on first preferences with a lead of at least 30%. Labour holds all four parliamentary seats with majorities of at least 27,000 or 60%. It is not quite one-party territory – a fifth of the council seats are held by other parties or independents – but it’s close enough.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • First. Like the Liberals in 1970s Liverpool.
  • I'm so old I remember the Liberals running the city. Thanks for an excellent update @david_herdson
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Surely even Labour can’t mess this election up?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    edited February 2021
    Edit: fourth.

    Crap.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    74 million? Pounds?
  • Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited February 2021

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.

    Yesterday i read that buy-to-let was being made impossible. Does it actually say it can be used to purchase second homes?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.

    BTL needs no help whatsoever. Yields of up to 5% vs borrow at cheap as chips.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.

    Well quite. The entire point of Government housing policy is not, and has never been, supply side reform. It's to inflate prices and thus enrich existing owners - most especially the elderly and their heirs.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    On topic, an interesting article, but I feel a little more background might have been helpful. In particular, why did the national leadership remove the three candidates originally? Was it because they were all commies? Or because they might be corrupt? Or because it was worried they might lose?

    From reading up, I understand it failed to give a reason, so I can understand why the local party is furious.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    It's the far left affectation for self-aggrandising vanity projects. The Soviet Union was replete with them. Useless fifty foot tall monuments of heroic workers in heroic poses, whilst loads of real-life workers froze or starved to death. That kind of thing.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    ydoethur said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I would say because of the poor build quality, but there might be mortar it than that.
    A claim not entirely without foundation.
  • Rentoul on the Mail headline this morning:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1365581357821423616
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,691
    ydoethur said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I would say because of the poor build quality, but there might be mortar it than that.
    What else can you expect from wimpy housing policies?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    ydoethur said:

    Surely even Labour can’t mess this election up?

    True, but the aftermath of Labour scandals like the Ashton affair often give rise to the butterfly effect.

    Don't forget Eric Joyce "nutting" a handful of MPs when tired and emotional, led to Edstone accidentally setting in place the dark path that led to Corbyn. The loss of the Mayoral election is unlikely in itself, however the inadvertent ramifications of removal of all female shortlists and other such nonsense could hurt in all sorts of ways hitherto unthought of.

    Starmer needs to look at the Unite issue and work out how to get this particular monkey off his back. Unfortunately it is the monkey paying for the next election campaign.

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.
  • Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    ydoethur said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I would say because of the poor build quality, but there might be mortar it than that.
    What else can you expect from wimpy housing policies?
    The latest Treasury scheme sounds more like Freddie BigMac than a Wimpy to me...

    What could possibly go wrong?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
  • Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Labour hasn't announced any housing policies yet it seems. They haven't really announced much of anything.

    For what it's worth, I completely agree with you, the only way to resolve this problem is to build more houses and to tell NIMBYs to sod off. But this would reduce house prices so the Tories won't do it - Labour will have a tough time selling it but they should think of a way. It's necessary at this point.

    If Vodafone wants to build a new phone mast in my garden, go right ahead. New wind turbine outside? All hunky dory.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
  • Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    It's the far left affectation for self-aggrandising vanity projects. The Soviet Union was replete with them. Useless fifty foot tall monuments of heroic workers in heroic poses, whilst loads of real-life workers froze or starved to death. That kind of thing.
    Or it was planned in the pre-covid era which is little more than a year ago even if it seems longer.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    Fishing said:

    On topic, an interesting article, but I feel a little more background might have been helpful. In particular, why did the national leadership remove the three candidates originally? Was it because they were all commies? Or because they might be corrupt? Or because it was worried they might lose?

    From reading up, I understand it failed to give a reason, so I can understand why the local party is furious.

    It's a mystery :smile: .

    Where's Nancy Drew when you need her?

    Skwawkbox skwawking:
    https://skwawkbox.org/2021/02/23/breaking-labour-nw-throws-liverpool-mayoral-selection-into-chaos-by-barring-all-3-candidates-from-contest/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    On the (modern) music front, I highly recommend the latest Killers album - Imploding the Mirage.

    It’s a masterpiece.
  • Unite are the prime example of everything that is wrong within the Labour movement. Supposedly a Trade Union, despite some excellent work representing members at the micro level it seems to work against them at the macro and strategic levels.

    From what I read and hear they are endlessly pouring petrol on the tyre heap fire that is the left in the party. Feeding the narrative that the only reason Corbyn isn't PM is because the right and the corporations and the media all conspired to bring down a Good Man. The true enemies of socialism are the liar Starmer and the class traitor Rayner.

    So I won't be at all surprised to see at least one of them running as a true Labour independent and splitting the vote. Dunno who we're running but the LibDem has to be a good outside bet - we ran the city for 12 years to 2010.
  • Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    The Corbynites will never break away to stand as Independents, especially not when they've had such a recent taste of control of Labour as a whole.

    Compared to the Blair years, when their hopes of winning the party leadership must have seemed so much more remote, they will believe that they are within touching distance of regaining control.

    That's not to say that there won't be an Independent Left candidate as a result of the selection controversy in Liverpool, but it won't be one that Unite, or Left Labour MPs, risk their place in the Labour Party to support.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Because a lot of people not on the front line like your good self, who may not have seen first hand the devastation this disease can cause, are, increasingly, impatient not to have to use Zoom any more. It’s shit, unreliable, causes mental health problems (cannot find the citation admittedly) and starting to become something of a standing joke. That’s not particularly responsible from a public health perspective but is something I have noted as this long dark winter has drawn on. Zoom is considered to be like a mask - a regrettable necessity to be ditched as soon as it is safe to do so. I’ve got one client who point blank refuses to have a mediation via video link and is waiting until it is safe to do it in person.
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    In the immediate future that's true. In the longer run it would be a very good idea to deploy incentives to encourage businesses to locate in less well-off areas so that more people will actually want to live there. Although, mind you, if that were done up North then the target of housing development would probably be to knock down and redevelop a lot of the back to back Victorian terraced crap before throwing up new towns.

    What's more likely than any of this happening is, of course, that the levelling up agenda essentially comes to nothing and the Tories attempt to hold/expand their Northern gains on the back of culture wars issues and Labour being really, really crap. As I said downthread, the sole aim of Government housing policy is, and always has been, asset price inflation to the benefit of the already well-off.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    The rolling seven day average for cases in the US has started to decline again after ticking up for a few days.


  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,601
    Excellent informative article.
    Liverpool is never boring.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Because a lot of people not on the front line like your good self, who may not have seen first hand the devastation this disease can cause, are, increasingly, impatient not to have to use Zoom any more. It’s shit, unreliable, causes mental health problems (cannot find the citation admittedly) and starting to become something of a standing joke. That’s not particularly responsible from a public health perspective but is something I have noted as this long dark winter has drawn on. Zoom is considered to be like a mask - a regrettable necessity to be ditched as soon as it is safe to do so. I’ve got one client who point blank refuses to have a mediation via video link and is waiting until it is safe to do it in person.
    Country is full of wimps and snowflakes. Need their bums wiped and fragile ego's polished constantly. WTF happened to the stiff upper lip, England has gone to the dogs.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited February 2021
    Meanwhile, the downside of a successful zero Covid campaign...

    New Zealand’s prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, has said the country’s biggest city, Auckland, will be put into a seven-day lockdown from Sunday after a [yes, only one] coronavirus community case of unknown origin was recorded.

    The rest of New Zealand will be put into level 2 restrictions that limit public gatherings, among others, she told a news conference.

    In mid-February, Auckland’s nearly 2 million residents were plunged into a snap three-day lockdown after a family of three were diagnosed with the more transmissible UK variant of Covid-19.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.

    I'll stand corrected if when the policy is formally announced it does allow buying homes to rent. However you seem to be reading into this that buy to rent will be allowed.

    I agree the housing market is messed up but I know someone who worked in a very senior role in a housebuilder and he advocated a land value tax - why should a farmer who is mates with the local planning committee suddenly become a multi millionaire because his farmland becomes vastly more valuable due to planning permission.

    The other thing that struck me was that in order to get planning approval it could take years and years.

    Finally there should be some volume target incentives for builders, even if that means partnership with housing associations. Why do new housing estates skew towards bigger houses - because it is more profitable for a housebuilder. If we can get uptake on some high volume system builds then that could revolutionise supply and open up property market to the young.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/zedpods-st-george-bristol-plans-3387124.amp
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Because a lot of people not on the front line like your good self, who may not have seen first hand the devastation this disease can cause, are, increasingly, impatient not to have to use Zoom any more. It’s shit, unreliable, causes mental health problems (cannot find the citation admittedly) and starting to become something of a standing joke. That’s not particularly responsible from a public health perspective but is something I have noted as this long dark winter has drawn on. Zoom is considered to be like a mask - a regrettable necessity to be ditched as soon as it is safe to do so. I’ve got one client who point blank refuses to have a mediation via video link and is waiting until it is safe to do it in person.
    Country is full of wimps and snowflakes. Need their bums wiped and fragile ego's polished constantly. WTF happened to the stiff upper lip, England has gone to the dogs.
    I mean, if you’re willing to wipe my bum for free?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Because a lot of people not on the front line like your good self, who may not have seen first hand the devastation this disease can cause, are, increasingly, impatient not to have to use Zoom any more. It’s shit, unreliable, causes mental health problems (cannot find the citation admittedly) and starting to become something of a standing joke. That’s not particularly responsible from a public health perspective but is something I have noted as this long dark winter has drawn on. Zoom is considered to be like a mask - a regrettable necessity to be ditched as soon as it is safe to do so. I’ve got one client who point blank refuses to have a mediation via video link and is waiting until it is safe to do it in person.
    Country is full of wimps and snowflakes. Need their bums wiped and fragile ego's polished constantly. WTF happened to the stiff upper lip, England has gone to the dogs.
    I’m not sure how you extrapolated that from my post given that I was making the exact opposite point to your reflexive anti-English diatribe. You don’t read posts before lashing out do you?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited February 2021

    Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.

    Personally I think labour, and the tories too to some extent, are analogue parties in a digital world. The great debate of the modern west now is globalist versus populist, voter rule versus plutocrat rule, national versus supranational, the nature of identity, libertarian versus authoritarian, control versus liberty in speech, movement, travel etc.

    Both parties are badly set up for these debates. Labour are suffering badly already. After the implications of lockdown play out and the ad revenues to the media dry up, the tories will really start to suffer too.

    I predict May will be a very unpleasant surprise for both.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Liverpool is perhaps the UK's reddest city, apart from a brief flirt with Libs and Lib Dems over the years it is perhaps remains true to the old Left. The CLP spat over anti semitism (remember Luciana Berger) was never really tidied up and future battles remain.... whether SKS is up for it I am not certain but the Loony Left tag is never far in this case
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,921
    edited February 2021
    OT Dominic Cummings has set up a company called Siwah, presumably with the aim of superforecasting who will be the new Mayor of Liverpool, and how many places below the Mayor of West Ham they will be seated in the new conference centre.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9304783/Dominic-Cummings-sets-new-tech-consultancy-firm.html
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    ydoethur said:

    Surely even Labour can’t mess this election up?

    True, but the aftermath of Labour scandals like the Ashton affair often give rise to the butterfly effect.

    Don't forget Eric Joyce "nutting" a handful of MPs when tired and emotional, led to Edstone accidentally setting in place the dark path that led to Corbyn. The loss of the Mayoral election is unlikely in itself, however the inadvertent ramifications of removal of all female shortlists and other such nonsense could hurt in all sorts of ways hitherto unthought of.

    Starmer needs to look at the Unite issue and work out how to get this particular monkey off his back. Unfortunately it is the monkey paying for the next election campaign.

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.
    Yes the removal of all female shortlists could lead to a woman coming above any man in a labour leadership election or even being made leader.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    OT Dominic Cummings has set up a company called Siwah, presumably with the aim of superforecasting who will be the new Mayor of Liverpool, and how many places below the Mayor of West Ham they will be seated in the new conference centre.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9304783/Dominic-Cummings-sets-new-tech-consultancy-firm.html

    Is there anybody stupid enough to buy such services from Dominic Cummings?

    If he had an atom of sense he’d have said up an advertising agency.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,397

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Yet you go down south and the same just isn't true.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited February 2021

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    eek said:

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Yet you go down south and the same just isn't true.
    Its true in the West Midlands to an extent. Ultimately if you want to preserve the green belt you have to either build denser or build where there is space.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796

    Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.

    Personally I think labour, and the tories too to some extent, are analogue parties in a digital world. The great debate of the modern west now is globalist versus populist, voter rule versus plutocrat rule, national versus supranational, the nature of identity, libertarian versus authoritarian, control versus liberty in speech, movement, travel etc.

    Both parties are badly set up for these debates. Labour are suffering badly already. After the implications of lockdown play out and the ad revenues to the media dry up, the tories will really start to suffer too.

    I predict May will be a very unpleasant surprise for both.
    Contrarian re your very last sentence - where are the voters going to go? The normal resceptical would be the LDs but they are not doing great and are hampered by the restrictions on campaigning. Indies?
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    ydoethur said:

    OT Dominic Cummings has set up a company called Siwah, presumably with the aim of superforecasting who will be the new Mayor of Liverpool, and how many places below the Mayor of West Ham they will be seated in the new conference centre.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9304783/Dominic-Cummings-sets-new-tech-consultancy-firm.html

    Is there anybody stupid enough to buy such services from Dominic Cummings?

    If he had an atom of sense he’d have said up an advertising agency.
    Not really. He would have to abide by the rules set down by the ASA. And Dom doesn't do rules.
  • Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56218952

    The government will offer incentives to lenders, bringing back 95% mortgages which have "virtually disappeared" during the pandemic, the Treasury said.

    Fine.

    It is not restricted to first-time buyers or new-build homes, but there will be a £600,000 limit.

    So actually it's not for young people at all, anyone who fancies a new home to rent can use this, this won't solve the problem, it will just drive up prices further.

    The Tories do not care about young people owning houses, this policy is a con.

    It should be restricted to owner occupiers and exclude buy to let.

    But anyone moving up the ladder, or anyone who has previously bought a home, sold it and now wants to get back on the ladder ... why should they be excluded?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there.
    That's what I said. Permanently subsidised ghettoes.

    Public spending in the north-east is already 60-70% of GDP. How much more do they want before they acknowledge that some areas of the country simply aren't viable at current levels of population, and just act as a drag on the more dynamic ones?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kjh said:

    Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.

    Personally I think labour, and the tories too to some extent, are analogue parties in a digital world. The great debate of the modern west now is globalist versus populist, voter rule versus plutocrat rule, national versus supranational, the nature of identity, libertarian versus authoritarian, control versus liberty in speech, movement, travel etc.

    Both parties are badly set up for these debates. Labour are suffering badly already. After the implications of lockdown play out and the ad revenues to the media dry up, the tories will really start to suffer too.

    I predict May will be a very unpleasant surprise for both.
    Contrarian re your very last sentence - where are the voters going to go? The normal resceptical would be the LDs but they are not doing great and are hampered by the restrictions on campaigning. Indies?
    Its a good question. I think indies will do very well in May, and there will be a lot of no-show for the main parties. Libs will do well, Greens too, and maybe there will be a showing from these populist right parties reform/reclaim. There could be some weird results!
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Amazing. It's tribute to the Britain's unwritten constitution that all she had to do to achieve this position of vast influence was suck Johnson's pant antler like a Tokyo salaryman going at his last Marlboro.
    Spouses and partners having influence over the elected person has nothing to do with any type of constitution. That's so silly it's not even provocative.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,475

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
    I'd subscribe to the Gallowgate party to see that happen. I also think people also should have access to an allotment if they desire one.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...

    The Victorian Terrace flat I had in Newcastle was all those things.

    I swapped for a detached house with a garden.

    I am not always convinced it was a trade up.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671
    edited February 2021
    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    Whilst our new variant problem could perhaps have been seen a bit earlier, the EU didn't have B1.1.7 at the time. They do now...

    Without that Tier 4 would have held.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,475

    OT Dominic Cummings has set up a company called Siwah, presumably with the aim of superforecasting who will be the new Mayor of Liverpool, and how many places below the Mayor of West Ham they will be seated in the new conference centre.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9304783/Dominic-Cummings-sets-new-tech-consultancy-firm.html

    The name sounds like sewer. I'm not a Cummings detractor, but you can write your own jokes...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2021

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,532

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
    A culture of high-quality flats isn't that hard to develop. I've posted before about the 8-storey block where I grew up (https://www.boliga.dk/bolig/1552133/lehwaldsvej_3_4_a_2800_kongens_lyngby ) - it is easily the nicest place I've ever lived in, spacious, breezy, fantastic views from two balconies, and relatively cheap - the flat in the picture is about £200K for 76 square metres (95% mortgage available), and the area is a prosperous suburb with nearby station, shopping, playground and village square. There is a full-time porter and two lifts. There are hundreds of blocks like this in Denmark and they're very popular. Sure, if you want a garden it doesn't give you that, but lots of people would skip that if it meant easily affordable living.

    In Britain, for historical reasons, blocks are associated with slums or, more recently, ridiculous City apartments for billionaires. If the Government tweaked planning law to encourage high-density and councils required good standards, that image would change and the chronic shortage of housing would go away. And relieve the pressure on houses with gardens for people who DO want them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,475
    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    We seem to assume that if Boris banned Christmas, people would have observed the ban. I'd say for most, this would not have been the case. It's important that we keep as many as possible within the regulations, and that means understanding when something is an impossible ask.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    Whilst our new variant problem could perhaps have been seen a bit earlier, the EU didn't have B1.1.7 at the time. They do now...

    Without that Tier 4 would have held.
    I wasn't aware that "the EU" dictated the Covid policies in their individual states. There are no doubt several countries in there hidden by the average.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329

    Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.

    It would be better to take an opposing stand at the time of an issue rather than afterwards. The general public don't remember the things you got wrong, only the political obsessives.

    I would also try and think about what policy areas will differentiate from Tories at a future election and be pushing them now for a start.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    We seem to assume that if Boris banned Christmas, people would have observed the ban. I'd say for most, this would not have been the case. It's important that we keep as many as possible within the regulations, and that means understanding when something is an impossible ask.
    Well it was banned in London and the South East. Fortunately we avoided the worst as a result.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    DougSeal said:

    The rolling seven day average for cases in the US has started to decline again after ticking up for a few days.


    The declines for the individual states are very interesting.
  • Meanwhile, the downside of a successful zero Covid campaign...

    New Zealand’s prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, has said the country’s biggest city, Auckland, will be put into a seven-day lockdown from Sunday after a [yes, only one] coronavirus community case of unknown origin was recorded.

    The rest of New Zealand will be put into level 2 restrictions that limit public gatherings, among others, she told a news conference.

    In mid-February, Auckland’s nearly 2 million residents were plunged into a snap three-day lockdown after a family of three were diagnosed with the more transmissible UK variant of Covid-19.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown

    According to my brother, who lives in Auckland, it's due to two teenagers who went to work in department stores despite being instructed to self-isolate.

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    @NickPalmer it is curious, however, that at the same time some of the most desirable streets in the country are made up primarily of terraced apartments.

    You don’t see influencers taking photos in front of 4 bed semis on the edge of town.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
    A culture of high-quality flats isn't that hard to develop. I've posted before about the 8-storey block where I grew up (https://www.boliga.dk/bolig/1552133/lehwaldsvej_3_4_a_2800_kongens_lyngby ) - it is easily the nicest place I've ever lived in, spacious, breezy, fantastic views from two balconies, and relatively cheap - the flat in the picture is about £200K for 76 square metres (95% mortgage available), and the area is a prosperous suburb with nearby station, shopping, playground and village square. There is a full-time porter and two lifts. There are hundreds of blocks like this in Denmark and they're very popular. Sure, if you want a garden it doesn't give you that, but lots of people would skip that if it meant easily affordable living.

    In Britain, for historical reasons, blocks are associated with slums or, more recently, ridiculous City apartments for billionaires. If the Government tweaked planning law to encourage high-density and councils required good standards, that image would change and the chronic shortage of housing would go away. And relieve the pressure on houses with gardens for people who DO want them.
    We won't get good standards because they don't make money for developers (and, to the extent that housing associations are interested in apartments, they can't afford decent standards either because land is so expensive.)

    Shoeboxes make money, and they sell because people are desperate not to be stuck renting forever. We know where that leads in this country: if you're still private renting when you get old then you have to accept a retirement of extreme poverty or work until you drop dead of exhaustion.

    My own one-bed flat, built circa 2000, is a rabbit hutch compared to some of the better Sixties examples, but it's still liveable. Comparable flats being built round here immediately before the Plague struck were fully one-third smaller than mine and selling for a higher price. And it's only going to get worse.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...

    The Victorian Terrace flat I had in Newcastle was all those things.

    I swapped for a detached house with a garden.

    I am not always convinced it was a trade up.
    I had a newer (semi-detached rather than terraced) Tyneside Flat in Fenham. I thought it was great, I even had a back garden which is unusual for an upstairs flat.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited February 2021

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
    Hundreds/thousands of new houses cannot be built in a vacuum though. There is a whole local infrastructure that has to be developed around them (schools/shops/health facilities etc etc)
  • ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    Whilst our new variant problem could perhaps have been seen a bit earlier, the EU didn't have B1.1.7 at the time. They do now...

    Without that Tier 4 would have held.
    @ClippP and @Scott_xP are delusional and blinded by hatred of Brexit and the current government.

    Pretty much the entire western world, including the EU and the UK aimed for or had a relaxation over Christmas. That is not the difference between the UK and the EU in that chart. The difference as you said is Kent Covid. Without that Tier 3 let alone Tier 4 was holding. The Northwest was seeing declining cases even in Tier 3 until Kent Covid arrived.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,532

    Apart from "resign", can we have a serious discussion about what Keir Starmer needs to do next.

    It seems to me that people are panicking, throwing out the baby with the bathwater over poll ratings, when he's still come back from 26 points behind to be - on average at least - a few points behind. To me this seems like quite good progress, no?

    I don't see how he is supposed to push Labour forward during a pandemic, it doesn't seem unique to him in that respect. Even if he is boring.

    I would dump Dodds but that won't help right now, he should do that after the pandemic.

    Would like to hear your thoughts.

    I think that "patience" is the main requirement right now - I agree with his strategy of exuding reasonableness and moderation at every turn (and I don't think it's a fake, that's what he's like). Major policy initiatives right now are a waste of breath. But some modest gestures that will mainly be noticed by the left would be good to avoid too many internal spats - e.g. domestically go hard on proper support for people who have to self-isolate, and abroad commit to matching the US in banning arms sales to Saudi Arabia.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Pork barrel? Job creation? Or the same sort of nonsense that's pushing HS2?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited February 2021

    Meanwhile, the downside of a successful zero Covid campaign...

    New Zealand’s prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, has said the country’s biggest city, Auckland, will be put into a seven-day lockdown from Sunday after a [yes, only one] coronavirus community case of unknown origin was recorded.

    The rest of New Zealand will be put into level 2 restrictions that limit public gatherings, among others, she told a news conference.

    In mid-February, Auckland’s nearly 2 million residents were plunged into a snap three-day lockdown after a family of three were diagnosed with the more transmissible UK variant of Covid-19.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown

    According to my brother, who lives in Auckland, it's due to two teenagers who went to work in department stores despite being instructed to self-isolate.

    How countries like New Zealand pivot from a zero Covid/zero death approach to loosen the reigns and an "acceptable levels of Covid/deaths" post vaccinations is going to be very interesting. Even more so if ultimately the main impact of vaccines will be on public health outcomes (hospitalisations/deaths), not necessarily on the potential for relatively significant case numbers.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,450
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    I am not in that union, but why on earth is Unite spending so much on a conference centre? Particularly in the post covid Zoom era.

    Because a lot of people not on the front line like your good self, who may not have seen first hand the devastation this disease can cause, are, increasingly, impatient not to have to use Zoom any more. It’s shit, unreliable, causes mental health problems (cannot find the citation admittedly) and starting to become something of a standing joke. That’s not particularly responsible from a public health perspective but is something I have noted as this long dark winter has drawn on. Zoom is considered to be like a mask - a regrettable necessity to be ditched as soon as it is safe to do so. I’ve got one client who point blank refuses to have a mediation via video link and is waiting until it is safe to do it in person.
    This is a debate which is coming to the fore in two organisations to which I belong. Traditionally the WEA, as half of its activities at any rate, has run 'classes, which are very often 'traditional' lectures; chap or chapess stands in from of 20 or so, usually elderly people and talks, with some visual aids about a topic on some aspect of Art, History or Literature. The audience is drawn from a radius of about ten miles.
    However, over the past few terms there's been a change; said chap or chapess sits in their study, or a WEA office and talks to a screen. Same subjects, but the audience is nationwide. And lots of us like the opportunity it creates. The course I'm doing a the moment was, in a straw poll of the 20 or so present, split half and half as to whether we preferred one or the other form, and several people I know will mix and match depending on what's on offer.
    Same applies to the u3a. Before the pandemic we were organised in very local groups, with the subjects 'studied' being dependent on the interest of the members. If you couldn't get someone else to 'do' German conversation, as example, that was that.
    Now I still belong to and 'attend' local meetings but I also participate in groups which have national and indeed international membership.

    We have the technology. It's similar to the coming of the railway, or mass ownership of cars. People began to travel much more.
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there.
    That's what I said. Permanently subsidised ghettoes.

    Public spending in the north-east is already 60-70% of GDP. How much more do they want before they acknowledge that some areas of the country simply aren't viable at current levels of population, and just act as a drag on the more dynamic ones?
    That's the point. To regenerate these areas by encouraging new residents and new employers. But remember that many of the dynamic parts of the Home Counties are not really dynamic so much as handy for London.
  • Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
    A culture of high-quality flats isn't that hard to develop. I've posted before about the 8-storey block where I grew up (https://www.boliga.dk/bolig/1552133/lehwaldsvej_3_4_a_2800_kongens_lyngby ) - it is easily the nicest place I've ever lived in, spacious, breezy, fantastic views from two balconies, and relatively cheap - the flat in the picture is about £200K for 76 square metres (95% mortgage available), and the area is a prosperous suburb with nearby station, shopping, playground and village square. There is a full-time porter and two lifts. There are hundreds of blocks like this in Denmark and they're very popular. Sure, if you want a garden it doesn't give you that, but lots of people would skip that if it meant easily affordable living.

    In Britain, for historical reasons, blocks are associated with slums or, more recently, ridiculous City apartments for billionaires. If the Government tweaked planning law to encourage high-density and councils required good standards, that image would change and the chronic shortage of housing would go away. And relieve the pressure on houses with gardens for people who DO want them.
    We won't get good standards because they don't make money for developers (and, to the extent that housing associations are interested in apartments, they can't afford decent standards either because land is so expensive.)

    Shoeboxes make money, and they sell because people are desperate not to be stuck renting forever. We know where that leads in this country: if you're still private renting when you get old then you have to accept a retirement of extreme poverty or work until you drop dead of exhaustion.

    My own one-bed flat, built circa 2000, is a rabbit hutch compared to some of the better Sixties examples, but it's still liveable. Comparable flats being built round here immediately before the Plague struck were fully one-third smaller than mine and selling for a higher price. And it's only going to get worse.
    There are more and more one person households, including me (actually I've been one for over 25 years now). I don't want anything bigger than my two bedroom flat. I have off-road parking, a garage, a shared garden I can sit out in and a spare bedroom I can use as an offuce/library/storage. I don't want anything any more expensive or hard work to run, I'm bad enough at it anyway. I want to spend my money on other things and use the flat as a base for exploring the world: in normal times it feels I'm not in it that much. If course last year it would have been nice to be under house arrest in something a bit bigger... I think there is a need for quality smaller properties with sensible tenure.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Barnesian said:

    Excellent informative article.
    Liverpool is never boring.

    Nor is Scotland now.
    Scotland seems to be on a differing scale leader of the country against ex leader.

  • alex_ said:

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
    Hundreds/thousands of new houses cannot be built in a vacuum though. There is a whole local infrastructure that has to be developed around them (schools/shops/health facilities etc etc)
    So just do it then.

    Every new house build is more revenue for the local Council, put it into infrastructure if its needed.

    Perhaps have a tax on new builds that can be spent on building the infrastructure required. While shops etc will be built because companies will want a premise near the homes so they will build what is required.

    Simply doing nothing isn't a solution.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    alex_ said:

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
    Hundreds/thousands of new houses cannot be built in a vacuum though. There is a whole local infrastructure that has to be developed around them (schools/shops/health facilities etc etc)
    So just do it then.

    Every new house build is more revenue for the local Council, put it into infrastructure if its needed.

    Perhaps have a tax on new builds that can be spent on building the infrastructure required. While shops etc will be built because companies will want a premise near the homes so they will build what is required.

    Simply doing nothing isn't a solution.
    In some ways that tax already exists. Councils will often require developers to contribute (significant) money towards infrastructure which ultimately is passed onto buyers.

    For example the builder of my house basically paid for a new 1st school to be built by the council.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    Why does it seem like every Tory housing policy falls apart when inspected?

    I agree, but then again I must have missed the amazing triumph of Labour's housing policy.

    The only way to solve the housing crisis is to ride roughshod over Nimbys, but neither party has had the balls to when in government.
    Forget Nimbys. Forget property developers building overpriced little boxes in the already over-crowded south-east. Forget BTLs and landbanks. Build new towns, especially up north. We need to generate more economic activity in less well-off areas. We could call it levelling up.
    Unfortunately, people have to want to live in the houses you build, otherwise you just end up building ghost towns, or permanently subsidised ghettoes. So you have to build them in areas people want to live, which means around London and a few prosperous mostly southern cities.
    Or we make people want to live in new towns by encouraging employers, and thus jobs to move there. We provide modern broadband infrastructure so people can WFH. This is what even Conservative governments used to do.
    Not new towns. Existing towns.

    We should encourage medium density (maybe around 6 stories max) in city and town centres with underground parking instead of sprawling suburbia. We also need better transport links of which HS2 is one.
    Most people - especially once they start to reproduce - don't want flats.

    The fact that several million of them are presently worthless and at constant risk of bursting into flames and visiting an agonizing death upon their occupants doesn't really help.
    You’re right. But what’s the answer?

    Everyone hates sprawling suburbia but they also want a detached house with a big garden but with excellent transport links to a major city.

    I think people would be open to flats more if they were built with dedicated secure underground parking, they were good quality, they were beautiful, they were not huge tower blocks, they had good sound insulation, they were spacious, and they were not at danger of engulfing in flames...
    Accommodation of that kind exists in a parallel universe of social housing built to high standards on reasonably priced land, where the over-riding objective of Government isn't to inflate asset prices. It's not going to happen.
    A culture of high-quality flats isn't that hard to develop. I've posted before about the 8-storey block where I grew up (https://www.boliga.dk/bolig/1552133/lehwaldsvej_3_4_a_2800_kongens_lyngby ) - it is easily the nicest place I've ever lived in, spacious, breezy, fantastic views from two balconies, and relatively cheap - the flat in the picture is about £200K for 76 square metres (95% mortgage available), and the area is a prosperous suburb with nearby station, shopping, playground and village square. There is a full-time porter and two lifts. There are hundreds of blocks like this in Denmark and they're very popular. Sure, if you want a garden it doesn't give you that, but lots of people would skip that if it meant easily affordable living.

    In Britain, for historical reasons, blocks are associated with slums or, more recently, ridiculous City apartments for billionaires. If the Government tweaked planning law to encourage high-density and councils required good standards, that image would change and the chronic shortage of housing would go away. And relieve the pressure on houses with gardens for people who DO want them.
    We won't get good standards because they don't make money for developers (and, to the extent that housing associations are interested in apartments, they can't afford decent standards either because land is so expensive.)

    Shoeboxes make money, and they sell because people are desperate not to be stuck renting forever. We know where that leads in this country: if you're still private renting when you get old then you have to accept a retirement of extreme poverty or work until you drop dead of exhaustion.

    My own one-bed flat, built circa 2000, is a rabbit hutch compared to some of the better Sixties examples, but it's still liveable. Comparable flats being built round here immediately before the Plague struck were fully one-third smaller than mine and selling for a higher price. And it's only going to get worse.
    There are more and more one person households, including me (actually I've been one for over 25 years now). I don't want anything bigger than my two bedroom flat. I have off-road parking, a garage, a shared garden I can sit out in and a spare bedroom I can use as an offuce/library/storage. I don't want anything any more expensive or hard work to run, I'm bad enough at it anyway. I want to spend my money on other things and use the flat as a base for exploring the world: in normal times it feels I'm not in it that much. If course last year it would have been nice to be under house arrest in something a bit bigger... I think there is a need for quality smaller properties with sensible tenure.
    I should like a little house, but we own the flat outright and the disincentive to take on the risk of a new mortgage for something you don't *really* need is enormous. Life is just too precarious nowadays. There's always the worry that, if one finds oneself being made redundant, there won't be another decent job (or any job at all) to come afterwards.

    So, we put up with the flat and wait until we either retire (and are thus no longer chained to an over-expensive area by work) or our savings have accumulated to the point at which we could afford to trade up paying cash. Apart from security, another advantage of being mortgage free - especially during the pandemic, where there's really not anything much left to spend the money on - is shovelling cash into savings and investments. The Rook household are not exactly plutocrats, but we're determined never to be poor if we can possibly help it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,532



    My own one-bed flat, built circa 2000, is a rabbit hutch compared to some of the better Sixties examples, but it's still liveable. Comparable flats being built round here immediately before the Plague struck were fully one-third smaller than mine and selling for a higher price. And it's only going to get worse.

    I live in a spacious one-bedroom rented flat which suits me perfectly well (I have a good income but most goes to relatives who don't - there's a lot of luck in these things). In the latest council meeting my flat was sneered at by a Tory councillor, who demanded that councillors should "maintain a decent standard, not participate from their bedrooms" - we gently pointed out that not all of us have a separate study for political work.

    Personally, I've no special urge to spend 20 years' rent on buying a place so I'm free of rent when I'm 91. I suppose my landlady could be called a buy-to-rent operator, but that's fine - when the boiler went she replaced it within days, happy to let her worry about that sort of thing.

    Basically we're all different and should encourage development to cope with that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,202
    Not seen such an outrageously dangerous headline as the Mail's in a while.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    ClippP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway, off before the Johnson fanclub arrive en- mass.

    https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1365424048763731977
    But then the EU didn't get a joyous headline for a day or two, for saving Christmas, did they?

    It was clearly worth it on the Johnson-Cnservvative balance sheet.....
    We seem to assume that if Boris banned Christmas, people would have observed the ban. I'd say for most, this would not have been the case. It's important that we keep as many as possible within the regulations, and that means understanding when something is an impossible ask.
    One thing to "ban" Christmas, quite another to encourage everybody to go mad. This is one reason why I think Johnson is so irresponsible, and even stupid.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796

    alex_ said:

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
    Hundreds/thousands of new houses cannot be built in a vacuum though. There is a whole local infrastructure that has to be developed around them (schools/shops/health facilities etc etc)
    So just do it then.

    Every new house build is more revenue for the local Council, put it into infrastructure if its needed.

    Perhaps have a tax on new builds that can be spent on building the infrastructure required. While shops etc will be built because companies will want a premise near the homes so they will build what is required.

    Simply doing nothing isn't a solution.
    In some ways that tax already exists. Councils will often require developers to contribute (significant) money towards infrastructure which ultimately is passed onto buyers.

    For example the builder of my house basically paid for a new 1st school to be built by the council.
    That must be one hell of house you have there Gallowgate.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    I think people don't quite realise the boost this "levelling up" actually has.

    The excitement and positivity in South Northumberland following the announcement of the BritishVolt factory is very real.

    I think even NIMBYs are happy with development if they feel they will benefit generally – rather than just houses and nothing else.

    That's great to hear, really hoping it doesn't get derailed and we get more of these kinds of developments. The government has got a really big opportunity in the aftermath of the pandemic and brexit to reboot industries. I hope they don't make stupid errors like raising corporation tax. We should be doing the opposite and allowing for unlimited business investment allowances for R&D, plant and machinery as well as holding the tax rates down. The way out of this mess is to grow the tax base and build an economy that raises the wage structure of the nation. Raising taxes will do exactly the opposite of what people need right now.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    kjh said:

    alex_ said:

    @Philip_Thompson is right (as discussed in previous debates) that the best way to ensure quality and sustainable housing is built is for competition to ensure its not feasible to build anything but. The problem is getting to that point without building hundreds of thousands of @Pulpstar ’s favourite Persimmon shit boxes. I don’t know the answer.

    However there is house building at scale in this country at present. Take my city - Newcastle. Every single little bit of green field and brown field is pretty much being filled in, right up to the boundaries of Newcastle and in North and South Tyneside.

    It is sprawling suburban housing estates though.

    Thanks for the hat tip.

    The long term answer is the same as it always has been. Abolish NIMBYism. Let whoever owns the land build whatever they want to on that land, subject to preset building standards.

    Let a free market build houses people want to buy - and if you don't want people to build on that field near your house then buy the field yourself, or it isn't yours so you have no right to decide what is done on it.

    Unfortunately no party has the balls to do the right thing - and I condemn my own for that too.
    Hundreds/thousands of new houses cannot be built in a vacuum though. There is a whole local infrastructure that has to be developed around them (schools/shops/health facilities etc etc)
    So just do it then.

    Every new house build is more revenue for the local Council, put it into infrastructure if its needed.

    Perhaps have a tax on new builds that can be spent on building the infrastructure required. While shops etc will be built because companies will want a premise near the homes so they will build what is required.

    Simply doing nothing isn't a solution.
    In some ways that tax already exists. Councils will often require developers to contribute (significant) money towards infrastructure which ultimately is passed onto buyers.

    For example the builder of my house basically paid for a new 1st school to be built by the council.
    That must be one hell of house you have there Gallowgate.
    :D To clarify, all the developers building new estates in my part of Newcastle were required to contribute towards the new school.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,101
    edited February 2021
    Liverpool is the most leftwing city in the UK, Labour hold every single parliamentary seat in the city and it is a Labour controlled council. It is possible Rothery could win as an independent
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126



    My own one-bed flat, built circa 2000, is a rabbit hutch compared to some of the better Sixties examples, but it's still liveable. Comparable flats being built round here immediately before the Plague struck were fully one-third smaller than mine and selling for a higher price. And it's only going to get worse.

    In the latest council meeting my flat was sneered at by a Tory councillor, who demanded that councillors should "maintain a decent standard, not participate from their bedrooms" - we gently pointed out that not all of us have a separate study for political work.

    What an idiot - he sneered like that on camera, in public?
This discussion has been closed.