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The dramatic change in attitudes to sexuality on both sides of the Atlantic – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Southern England is looking very green on the COVID map, and there's a lot less dark blue in Northern England. Good to see.

    When you go into the really detailed maps, there are large areas of the SW, but also places like Oxfordshire, which are white - showing the virus is suppressed.

    There are still some nasty hot-spots - like Leicester.
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    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    Nicola has had to say that the decisions being made in the judiciary are definitely independent of her and definitely not political. In other news, Scotland is going onto an all-banana diet.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    Monkeys said:

    Nicola has had to say that the decisions being made in the judiciary are definitely independent of her and definitely not political. In other news, Scotland is going onto an all-banana diet.

    Are you saying they are all bent?
  • Options
    trukattrukat Posts: 19
    edited February 2021
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    Most likely not.

    Gay liberation was a very long process, not just an event that happened in 1967. Never mind the fact that discrimination and violence against gay people still hasn't ended - the environment in which lesbians and gays had to live for at least the thirty years after the initial, very limited, decriminalisation of gay sex was pretty wretched. It got progressively better, but only very gradually.

    I'd contend that one of the consequences of incrementally improving conditions for homosexual people is that many others who would otherwise have stuck only with opposite sex relationships - for fear of ridicule or worse - have been progressively encouraged to explore and experiment, rather than sticking to previously accepted social norms, and in many cases have discovered that they rather like swinging both ways. I've long believed that human sexuality exists along a spectrum, and the notion that people must be either entirely gay or entirely straight is as ludicrous as the ancient prejudice that all must be straight and being gay is some kind of affliction.

    If the eventual endpoint of this evolution is that the group floating in the middle ends up being larger than either of the segments of the population that are purely attracted to one gender, then perhaps this shouldn't come as such a big surprise?
    Whether you are attracted to one gender or both genders though it does not change the fact the good looking people will be most attractive to others, so it does not necessarily vastly expand your pool if you are not in that category.

    At the end of the day most of us have relationships with those on a similar level of attractiveness and who we share similar personality traits with and get on with
    Err so I should start shafting my best m8?

    I think I will pass thx.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,908
    edited February 2021

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Sooner he is removed the better. Just does not appear up to it. Currently making every single other cabinet minister look good (ok, that might be too strong, but you know what I mean...)
    Maybe that is his official role?

    He isn't the first minister to improve the image of the rest by their presence in the cabinet.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    trukat said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    Most likely not.

    Gay liberation was a very long process, not just an event that happened in 1967. Never mind the fact that discrimination and violence against gay people still hasn't ended - the environment in which lesbians and gays had to live for at least the thirty years after the initial, very limited, decriminalisation of gay sex was pretty wretched. It got progressively better, but only very gradually.

    I'd contend that one of the consequences of incrementally improving conditions for homosexual people is that many others who would otherwise have stuck only with opposite sex relationships - for fear of ridicule or worse - have been progressively encouraged to explore and experiment, rather than sticking to previously accepted social norms, and in many cases have discovered that they rather like swinging both ways. I've long believed that human sexuality exists along a spectrum, and the notion that people must be either entirely gay or entirely straight is as ludicrous as the ancient prejudice that all must be straight and being gay is some kind of affliction.

    If the eventual endpoint of this evolution is that the group floating in the middle ends up being larger than either of the segments of the population that are purely attracted to one gender, then perhaps this shouldn't come as such a big surprise?
    Whether you are attracted to one gender or both genders though it does not change the fact the good looking people will be most attractive to others, so it does not necessarily vastly expand your pool if you are not in that category.

    At the end of the day most of us have relationships with those on a similar level of attractiveness and who we share similar personality traits with and get on with
    Err so I should start shafting my best m8?

    I think I will pass thx.
    Your best mate might be really fit?
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,237
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    What a waste of time......

    Just ONE PER CENT of the 15,000 people arriving in the UK everyday are going into hotel quarantine, reveals head of Border Force

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9294951/Just-150-people-entering-UK-quarantine-hotels-day.html

    What a misleading article. The 15,000 people arriving in the UK everyday are not required to go into hotel quarantine. Only those that came in from a Red List country do.
    Its not misleading at all. There isn't a suggestion the system is failing to quarantine those that the government have deemed must quarantine, rather there are still very large numbers of people entering the country who aren't effected by this rules...which makes it all a bit of a waste of time, if we haven't really shut the borders properly.

    Even taking out the 1/3 that are hauliers, which I don't think anybody wants to put in a quarantine hotel, that still leaves 10,000.

    Its "airbridges" all over again....by the time you know you have a problem with a particular country, it is already too late.

    You either do this policy properly or don't bother at all.
    Quite. Other than hauliers, who the feck are these people? What is their excuse? Thousands of people that are exempt from the travel rules the rest of us are following? Why?
    We are making children wear masks for hours on end five days a week, but not closing borders.

    Something is very wrong somewhere.
    I get you think lots of things are being done wrong with schools - what would be your solutions? Genuine question (i.e. not trying to pick a fight).
    Masks are unlikely to be helpful in prolonged close contact cases, while causing huge problems elsewhere. So get rid of them.

    Otherwise, the situation is such a complete muddle it’s difficult to know what to do for the best. The obvious solution would be to increase capacity through using supply teachers and office spaceS to create smaller classes with more spaces in them, but that isn’t simple or straightforward.

    The real mistakes were made back in October with the refusal to consider blended learning and the legal threats to make sure that couldn’t happen.

    Ultimately, any attempts to sort that mess out will merely be tinkering at the edges.
    Cheers. I think you are probably right on blended approaches. Its worked pretty well at my Uni - students getting some in person teaching, but other content and classes online. Moving into next year we expect to retain some elements of this - lectures to large gatherings of students may never return, with the opportunity to repurpose lots of now vacant lecture theatre spaces.

    I'm a little annoyed that no-one has the gumption to run a trial on the masks - e.g. ask some schools to use them and others not. At least try to get some real work data.

    Keep up the good work - we do appreciate it.
    Thanks. I hope you get some more clarity on HE soon. I see they want all of you to wear masks as well...I feel your pain (literally)!
    We have been since last summer. Its in all corridors and shared spaces now. I will admit to sharing a coffee with a colleague in my spacious office with the window open and no masks...
    If I understand this briefing correctly, it’s now everywhere, maybe including your offices.

    I hope I’m wrong because that’s ludicrous. But that’s what they’re trying to do to us.
    Yep - any shared offices we have to. (Single occupancy not currently).

    TBH like a lot of the things we've put in place, it's not policed by anyone. We have one way routes, sanitizer at doors, rotas to restrict occupancy, but its all self policed. In reality, we only ever had one year group on campus on any given day, so the campus was very quiet.

    It will be nice to get back to normal at some point. The empty campus is a tad depressing.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
    MattW said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The Bank of England Governor, Andrew Bailey, has accused the European Union of trying to poach business from the City of London in the wake of Brexit, labelling the bloc’s recent activity as a “very serious escalation”.

    Mr Bailey told the Treasury Select Committee on Wednesday the EU now seems more interested in taking euro-denominated derivatives clearing business out of London into the EU than making sure the UK’s regulations are “equivalent” to the bloc’s for financial stability reasons.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/business/uk-financial-services-bank-of-england-b1806765.html

    Whilst I hope they dont, what is the "accused " narrative all about. Surely the EU has a right to muscle in on this now we are not in the club. It is up to us to compete not get all upset as though we are entitled to have it and nobody else.
    It's also a bit weird, because the "European Union" has no ability or capability to lure firms away from the UK. (Absent some regional development funds, and I can't think that Calabria is trying to get Goldman Sachs to move there.)

    The vast bulk of any "luring" is being done by cities and countries inside the EU. (And is no different, of course, from the luring that we are doing to try and get pharmaceutical companies to set up production in the UK.)
    But presumably the European Union can assist in making it more difficult for London to get equivalency and to compete by either changing EU rules in very specific ways or in delaying and obstructing equivalency status. I am not saying that they are (I simply don't know), but that they could.
    Sure, but I think that is less of a barrier than you'd think. Firms in the UK get people registered with the SEC all the time. It's a massive pain, but it's not *that* hard, and it's not like every employee needs it.

    The EU has pull in two areas: one is derivatives clearing, where the clearing house is indirectly baked by the central bank, and I suspect that will migrate to the EU. (But the number of jobs is de minimis here.) The other regards supervision of the trading activities of EU banks. Here there are potentially bigger moves: but there really aren't that many EU banks with big UK trading operations - BNP is mostly in Paris, and Deutsche has been in decline for some time.
    IS not the context here the comments of various figures that it was important that the UK be "punished" for leaving the EU, very early in the process?

    Of course the regulatory process will be used to make it difficult for the UK, whether fair and consistent, or not.

    We know that. That's just S.O.P.
    Sure that's what happening as far as negotiations over equivalence.

    But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that equivalence is not the big deal it's cracked up to be. Sure, it would be great if the EU recognised that the FCA's Registered Representative Status was recognised by the EU, but the it's not recognised by the SEC, and all that happens is that people inside UK firms jump through the hoops with the SEC.

    Not getting equivalance would be a pain, but it's not that much of a pain.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
    Endillion said:

    Not buying this one bit. Every survey I've seen that looks remotely representative finds a % of LGB respondents in the low-to-mid single digits. This one reckons its 10+ even for Boomers, and more like 15-20 for the adult population as a whole. Who on earth are they asking?

    MPs?
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    But also suggests the percentage of gay people probably higher than generally accepted (10%+)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    When I was at University (1992-95), many people were described as BUGs

    Which stood for "bisexual until graduation".

    I'm not sure things have changed that much.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
  • Options
    trukattrukat Posts: 19

    trukat said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    Most likely not.

    Gay liberation was a very long process, not just an event that happened in 1967. Never mind the fact that discrimination and violence against gay people still hasn't ended - the environment in which lesbians and gays had to live for at least the thirty years after the initial, very limited, decriminalisation of gay sex was pretty wretched. It got progressively better, but only very gradually.

    I'd contend that one of the consequences of incrementally improving conditions for homosexual people is that many others who would otherwise have stuck only with opposite sex relationships - for fear of ridicule or worse - have been progressively encouraged to explore and experiment, rather than sticking to previously accepted social norms, and in many cases have discovered that they rather like swinging both ways. I've long believed that human sexuality exists along a spectrum, and the notion that people must be either entirely gay or entirely straight is as ludicrous as the ancient prejudice that all must be straight and being gay is some kind of affliction.

    If the eventual endpoint of this evolution is that the group floating in the middle ends up being larger than either of the segments of the population that are purely attracted to one gender, then perhaps this shouldn't come as such a big surprise?
    Whether you are attracted to one gender or both genders though it does not change the fact the good looking people will be most attractive to others, so it does not necessarily vastly expand your pool if you are not in that category.

    At the end of the day most of us have relationships with those on a similar level of attractiveness and who we share similar personality traits with and get on with
    Err so I should start shafting my best m8?

    I think I will pass thx.
    Your best mate might be really fit?
    He is alright, but He does not have the right secondary sexual characteristics for me sadly.

    Call me old fashioned that way.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    When I was at University (1992-95), many people were described as BUGs

    Which stood for "bisexual until graduation".

    I'm not sure things have changed that much.
    There was a huge proportion of that in the mid 00s when I was at uni so the same a decade later (and probably now).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    Summer schools in my experience (which is pretty extensive) are usually staffed by teachers being paid overtime.

    So my salary is around a grand a week, or £50 an hour (less in reality, but let’s keep the figures simple). I’ll do it for £75. Maybe then we’re talking about £300 a day for me. I do a week, that is £1500 (I’m assuming no pension payments on this - add another £130 odd if there are).

    Admittedly, I’m an experienced and senior teacher so I’m on a high pay bracket. An NQT might do it for £50 an hour, that brings it down to about a thousand.

    But even on the most optimistic case, the money offered will only cover about five teachers for three weeks. Even if the DfE pay it up (which they haven’t in the past - promising and then failing being an issue).

    So I’m not clear what it would achieve.

    That’s even assuming you can get your target students - those who have done no work at all in lockdown - back in in the first place. You can’t drag them in by force and they tend not to actually like schools.

    I can’t help but feel that this money would be better spent on giving them iPads so they can access learning properly.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    rcs1000 said:
    The absolute definition of first world problems....
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,908
    I'm sure the red wall will be devastated.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, the big news today (re-post from previous thread) is this:

    The updated J&J single-dose vaccine data looks very good - very effective (better than 80%) efficacy from 28 days onwards against severe/critical Covid in all three regions where they ran the trials, including South Africa where most of the cases were the nasty variant version of the virus. Admittedly it's less effective against mild cases, especially in SA (but that's probably the same for the other jabs). Also it seems to work fine in the over-65s (albeit with relatively small sample sizes). It even had fewer adverse reactions than the mRNA jabs.

    Looks near-certain to me that the FDA will approve it. It's cheap, single-dose, will be manufactured in large quantities in multiple locations, and doesn't require special refrigeration. This is going to be a major boost to reducing the toll of the virus around the world.

    The data actually looks very similar to the AZ vaccine with one dose. Not surprising given the similarities.
    Yes, indeed. That's good news in the other direction as well - it suggests that AZ will be effective against the SA variant, for which we don't have much data.

    One interesting question is whether J&J will end up recommending a second dose once they've completed their trials on that. I suspect they will, but the main thing is that all of the four vaccines for which we have full trial data look very effective even with one dose, at least for a while.

    The world just needs to get these jabs into arms ASAP.
    Yes agreed. We've managed to get into this really stupid situation where the AZ vaccine is now seen as inferior by much of the developed world because of a stupid contract argument between the EU and AZ and the resulting fallout. That is going to cost real people their lives and extend lockdowns across Europe. The initial UK data on both vaccines with a single dose is hugely, hugely positive especially considering it has been carried out among healthcare workers who are likely to come into contact with infected people often.
    That's not the only reason: the US has not approved AZ, and now looks unlikely to do so, and that's not because of the UK-EU fight. In South Africa, they've stopped using AZ, and that's not due to the EU-UK fight.

    The only one which *might* be related, that I can think of, is Switzerland, which rejected it.

    The EU in general (and Macron in particular) has behaved appallingly, but the reasons for scepticism are not only rooted there.
  • Options
    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    It's even worse than that.

    OK Computer came out in 1997....
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    kinabalu said:

    On topic. So the trend is that fairly soon heterosexuality will be a sub-culture. You'll check into your hotel in a big city and ask the concierge, "So, where the straight scene round here?" He'll grin and direct you to the nearest Berni Inn.

    Is this the new Extinction Rebellion idea? End procreation?
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note how "only attracted to the same sex" percentage is roughly the same from Gen X to Gen Z.

    Indeed, everything else is "I'm trying to be on trend" type of people.
    When I was at University (1992-95), many people were described as BUGs

    Which stood for "bisexual until graduation".

    I'm not sure things have changed that much.
    Real-world alcohol prices?
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    I'm beginning to think we need some graphs of adults who have had zero jabs.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    It's even worse than that.

    OK Computer came out in 1997....
    And the last Commodore and Amiga computers.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,413

    But will they?

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1364619151755644929?s=20

    The Scottish government has quite a track record of ignoring votes in Holyrood....

    At some point the apparently blatant cover-up is going to do more damage to Sturgeon/SNP/indy than just letting it all hang out.

    Unless, of course, there really is a smoking gun hidden away, which finishes Sturgeon's career.

    I doubt it, but the more the SNP Establishment fights to hide things, the more I wonder.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    That video linking with the rats running around?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,183
    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    MattW said:

    I'm beginning to think we need some graphs of adults who have had zero jabs.
    They are banned under EU law. With extra-territorial effect.

    It's in the small-print of the Brexit deal.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    Au pairs tended to be English language students rather than professional nannies.
    And as such cheap labour for the like to make out they are better off than they are crowd.
    Who now have a choice of pay a proper salary or look after your own kids.
    Christ. I sound like a Brexiter.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Anyway, the big news today (re-post from previous thread) is this:

    The updated J&J single-dose vaccine data looks very good - very effective (better than 80%) efficacy from 28 days onwards against severe/critical Covid in all three regions where they ran the trials, including South Africa where most of the cases were the nasty variant version of the virus. Admittedly it's less effective against mild cases, especially in SA (but that's probably the same for the other jabs). Also it seems to work fine in the over-65s (albeit with relatively small sample sizes). It even had fewer adverse reactions than the mRNA jabs.

    Looks near-certain to me that the FDA will approve it. It's cheap, single-dose, will be manufactured in large quantities in multiple locations, and doesn't require special refrigeration. This is going to be a major boost to reducing the toll of the virus around the world.

    The data actually looks very similar to the AZ vaccine with one dose. Not surprising given the similarities.
    Yes, indeed. That's good news in the other direction as well - it suggests that AZ will be effective against the SA variant, for which we don't have much data.

    One interesting question is whether J&J will end up recommending a second dose once they've completed their trials on that. I suspect they will, but the main thing is that all of the four vaccines for which we have full trial data look very effective even with one dose, at least for a while.

    The world just needs to get these jabs into arms ASAP.
    Yes agreed. We've managed to get into this really stupid situation where the AZ vaccine is now seen as inferior by much of the developed world because of a stupid contract argument between the EU and AZ and the resulting fallout. That is going to cost real people their lives and extend lockdowns across Europe. The initial UK data on both vaccines with a single dose is hugely, hugely positive especially considering it has been carried out among healthcare workers who are likely to come into contact with infected people often.
    That's not the only reason: the US has not approved AZ, and now looks unlikely to do so, and that's not because of the UK-EU fight. In South Africa, they've stopped using AZ, and that's not due to the EU-UK fight.

    The only one which *might* be related, that I can think of, is Switzerland, which rejected it.

    The EU in general (and Macron in particular) has behaved appallingly, but the reasons for scepticism are not only rooted there.
    I'd be shocked if the US doesn't approve it, the UK real world data is undeniably good, better than what the J&J data shows at ~90% immunity from severe symptoms and hospitalisation vs 80% for J&J both with one dose.

    The US trial is about to finish soon as well so we will get reasonay good quality trial data as wel which should confirm the 12 week gap efficacy against US COVID being ~90% as modelled by the immune response. The major reason the stated efficacy is 83% is because the AS vaccine was trialled against Kent, Brazil and SA COVID all of which have some or a lot of dilution effect.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992
    edited February 2021

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Any impartial millennial will tell you that Oasis were clearly the best. I couldn't even name any Blur songs.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082

    Southern England is looking very green on the COVID map, and there's a lot less dark blue in Northern England. Good to see.

    When you go into the really detailed maps, there are large areas of the SW, but also places like Oxfordshire, which are white - showing the virus is suppressed.

    There are still some nasty hot-spots - like Leicester.
    Leicester has been a hot-spot for the best part of a year. You'd think it would have run out of people to infect by now.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,183

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Any impartial millennial will tell you that Oasis were clearly the best. I couldn't even name any Blur songs.
    Not even Parklife?
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    We had an 'au pair' before UK joined the Common Market. Why does the arrangement have anything to do with the EU?

  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Any impartial millennial will tell you that Oasis were clearly the best. I couldn't even name any Blur songs.
    Not even Parklife?
    Didn't know that was by Blur. Says it all.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,413

    EPG said:

    Gen Z is so online and philosophically idealist; some of them would reject these categories as binary hate speech.

    I dunno. Some on here, such as @Leon, seem to suggest that Gen Z is pushing back against millennial "woke nonsense". The evidence suggests otherwise.
    By "woke nonsense" I mean things like "chestfeeding" and ultra-militant trans rights, or the absolute obsession with race, and differing between races, to the point where it makes Hitler look relaxed on racial issues. That's where I sense the beginnings of pushback.

    On sexuality itself, the kids are indeed very very liberal. I doubt there's a teen in the land who would now say "I'm straight". They would be mocked . EVERYONE that age now says they are "bi" at least.

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,498

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,454
    Leon said:

    But will they?

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1364619151755644929?s=20

    The Scottish government has quite a track record of ignoring votes in Holyrood....

    At some point the apparently blatant cover-up is going to do more damage to Sturgeon/SNP/indy than just letting it all hang out.

    Unless, of course, there really is a smoking gun hidden away, which finishes Sturgeon's career.

    I doubt it, but the more the SNP Establishment fights to hide things, the more I wonder.
    What are the odds for Alex Salmond as next FM?

    Asking for a friend.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,587
    dixiedean said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    Au pairs tended to be English language students rather than professional nannies.
    And as such cheap labour for the like to make out they are better off than they are crowd.
    Who now have a choice of pay a proper salary or look after your own kids.
    Christ. I sound like a Brexiter.
    Au pairs were around way before FoM and the EU. How did it work then?

  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    Leon said:

    EPG said:

    Gen Z is so online and philosophically idealist; some of them would reject these categories as binary hate speech.

    I dunno. Some on here, such as @Leon, seem to suggest that Gen Z is pushing back against millennial "woke nonsense". The evidence suggests otherwise.
    By "woke nonsense" I mean things like "chestfeeding" and ultra-militant trans rights, or the absolute obsession with race, and differing between races, to the point where it makes Hitler look relaxed on racial issues. That's where I sense the beginnings of pushback.

    On sexuality itself, the kids are indeed very very liberal. I doubt there's a teen in the land who would now say "I'm straight". They would be mocked . EVERYONE that age now says they are "bi" at least.

    Yeah but things like "chestfeeding" are not mainstream in ANY generation so having Gen Z-ers push back against such things is nothing out of the ordinary.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
    There's a whole glorious tradition;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop
  • Options
    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    Leon said:

    But will they?

    https://twitter.com/HTScotPol/status/1364619151755644929?s=20

    The Scottish government has quite a track record of ignoring votes in Holyrood....

    At some point the apparently blatant cover-up is going to do more damage to Sturgeon/SNP/indy than just letting it all hang out.

    Unless, of course, there really is a smoking gun hidden away, which finishes Sturgeon's career.

    I doubt it, but the more the SNP Establishment fights to hide things, the more I wonder.
    If the Scottish judiciary isn't independent of government, then it impacts way beyond Salmond/Sturgeon or even Indy. But yes, all those things are finished.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,997
    kle4 said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    I remember my own discovery I was a millenial - it's a sobering moment. Since I was sober anyway, it pushed me through beyond sobriety, which wasn't pleasant.
    I've discovered I'm not a Baby Boomer (I was born in1943). I'm Silent Generation! My friends and family wouldn't agree.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    O/T, John Sununu has stated he may run for the NH Senate, which opens up that race if it happened

    https://www.unionleader.com/news/politics/state/sununu-says-definitely-open-to-2022-senate-bid/article_4ee5d5de-f32a-51f6-9d37-8905e932ac87.html (can't get the story but the headline gives the message)
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    Barnesian said:

    kle4 said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    I remember my own discovery I was a millenial - it's a sobering moment. Since I was sober anyway, it pushed me through beyond sobriety, which wasn't pleasant.
    I've discovered I'm not a Baby Boomer (I was born in1943). I'm Silent Generation! My friends and family wouldn't agree.
    Me too. "Silent Generation" - stfu, please.

  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082

    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
    Isn't the point that the au pair teaches the kids the language, Portuguese in this instance, at the same time?

    A friend of mine is doing au pair in Italy next year, apparently.
  • Options
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Treated myself to the 4 CD Menswe@r collection recently.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Treated myself to the 4 CD Menswe@r collection recently.
    What is a "CD"?

    /s
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
    There used to be a site called Hot Nannies, or something like that, which somebody showed me once. There's going to be a lot of disappointed husbands.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
    There used to be a site called Hot Nannies, or something like that, which somebody showed me once. There's going to be a lot of disappointed husbands.
    "somebody showed me once". Sure mate. ;)
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
    There used to be a site called Hot Nannies, or something like that, which somebody showed me once. There's going to be a lot of disappointed husbands.
    "somebody showed me once". Sure mate. ;)
    Honest Guv :smile:
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,735
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    With a side of Radiohead obviously.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    UK investors can invest in US companies, can they not? Excuse my ignorance.
  • Options
    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    I think it's a bit more complicated than "London's crap". Yes, there is definitely an argument that London investors aren't perceived to understand the tech sector like the US does but valuation probably is the main factor - call it tech and you get an inflated valuation in the States. Some firms don't want to take the sober route.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    UK investors can invest in US companies, can they not? Excuse my ignorance.
    They can, of course, however a lot of pension funds are limited to investing in companies that meet premium listing rules. They form an absolutely gigantic part of the pensions investment industry and all of these funds won't be able to invest in Babylon (and other UK tech companies) becuase they've declined to list here as premium listing rules are ridiculous.
  • Options
    LennonLennon Posts: 1,735
    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    What's the underlying reasoning - is it SEC rules being preferential to FCA ones; a desire to be 'on the NASDAQ'; or the ease of being able to just reverse merge into a SPAC?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,082
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    UK investors can invest in US companies, can they not? Excuse my ignorance.
    They can, of course, however a lot of pension funds are limited to investing in companies that meet premium listing rules. They form an absolutely gigantic part of the pensions investment industry and all of these funds won't be able to invest in Babylon (and other UK tech companies) becuase they've declined to list here as premium listing rules are ridiculous.
    Very interesting. Thank you.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    Au pairs tended to be English language students rather than professional nannies.
    And as such cheap labour for the like to make out they are better off than they are crowd.
    Who now have a choice of pay a proper salary or look after your own kids.
    Christ. I sound like a Brexiter.
    English language students on a student visa are able to work part time basis aren't they? If its full time work then a full time wage should be paid.

    Surely there's also other options for childcare too like afterschool clubs and other kind of childcare options most working parents use?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    MrEd said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    I think it's a bit more complicated than "London's crap". Yes, there is definitely an argument that London investors aren't perceived to understand the tech sector like the US does but valuation probably is the main factor - call it tech and you get an inflated valuation in the States. Some firms don't want to take the sober route.
    That's not the case, Deliveroo is set to list in London and it will achieve a £7.5bn valuation despite never making a profit and looking unlikely to do so for at least 5-7 years. I expect UK investors will send the shares rocketing too as there is huge appetite for domestic tech investment.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    Southern England is looking very green on the COVID map, and there's a lot less dark blue in Northern England. Good to see.

    When you go into the really detailed maps, there are large areas of the SW, but also places like Oxfordshire, which are white - showing the virus is suppressed.

    There are still some nasty hot-spots - like Leicester.
    Leicester has been a hot-spot for the best part of a year. You'd think it would have run out of people to infect by now.
    There is also quite a fair bit out in the county, particularly NW Leics and Charnwood, so not exclusively a problem of ethnic inner city.

    https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/covid-19-rates-creep-up-5034249?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,321

    I might write a thread this weekend on au pair, I know it might shock many PBers but I hired an au pair, it was for the cultural exchange, it helped turned foreigners in pure anglophiles which is always a bonus for the UK.

    There were only two real downsides to hiring an au pair.

    1) My mother yelling at me for letting some stranger look after her grandkid

    2) A certain genre of movies had given me an unrealistic expectation of just what an au pair is willing to do.

    Never mind movies, it goes right back to Jane Eyre.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Lennon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    What's the underlying reasoning - is it SEC rules being preferential to FCA ones; a desire to be 'on the NASDAQ'; or the ease of being able to just reverse merge into a SPAC?
    Listing rules and inability to have favourable share structures that retain voting rights for founders.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    The listing doesn't matter too much. It might be the case that (assuming they're raising fund) the investors are all in the UK. Of course it won't, but you get my point.

    There are some US companies that list on AIM as a precursor to Nasdaq.

    Small negative though it is the ongoing theme is negative. When do you wake up and look? NY time? London needs to have some victories here.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,183
    Lennon said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    With a side of Radiohead obviously.
    If we can pretend Radiohead after "The Bends" doesn't exist, I'm all for that.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,654
    edited February 2021

    MrEd said:

    Cookie said:

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    I can see the nation's cillective heart bleeding for the au-pair empliying classes.
    Presumably they could just, you know, hire British au pairs? And if they can't find them at the pittance they're paying the Portuguese au pair, tbey could consider paying a bit more?
    Absolutely.

    Oh and if they absolutely truly must have a Portuguese au pair then why not pay them the £26k or £30k or whatever it is required to get a visa? 🤔

    Though at that rate I expect they could find someone local to do it too.
    There used to be a site called Hot Nannies, or something like that, which somebody showed me once. There's going to be a lot of disappointed husbands.
    "somebody showed me once". Sure mate. ;)
    https://nypost.com/2005/07/20/come-to-papa-the-perils-of-hiring-the-hot-nanny/
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,883

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    DougSeal said:

    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Ok so how old are you to be in these generations?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

    Damn, just looked that up and discovered I'm a millennial! Does that mean I'm a snowflake? I'd always assumed I was generation X, that sounds cool :disappointed:
    Yes. Gen X is the coolest generation. The decade that we dominated culture, the 90s, was the last decade where anything worthwhile was produced. We just weren't much good at cricket.
    Oh God.

    An Oasis-Blur apologist.
    Any Gen Xer worth their salt knows that the answer to Oasis or Blur was, of course, Pulp.
    Treated myself to the 4 CD Menswe@r collection recently.
    What is a "CD"?

    /s
    Something my Gramophone cant cope with.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,901

    Fair enough.

    Why should there be a special immigration route for au pairs? Special immigration routes should exist for high skilled immigration, are au pairs high skilled?
    Cannot special immigration routes exist for where there is a need, not merely where there is high skill? I honestly have no idea if this is indeed an area where we cannot possibly manage.
  • Options

    I might write a thread this weekend on au pair, I know it might shock many PBers but I hired an au pair, it was for the cultural exchange, it helped turned foreigners in pure anglophiles which is always a bonus for the UK.

    There were only two real downsides to hiring an au pair.

    1) My mother yelling at me for letting some stranger look after her grandkid

    2) A certain genre of movies had given me an unrealistic expectation of just what an au pair is willing to do.

    Like the "oh, too many Erasmus students come to the UK, we lose on the deal", I suspect that the soft power benefits of having young people spending formative years in the UK is worth a lot to the UK. I know I care a lot more about Spain because of the time I spent working there.

    As for the whole "we had au pairs before the EEC" thing, I wonder how porous borders were then? I genuinely don't know, but I suspect governments couldn't manage borders as rigourously then, even had they wanted to. I haven't got time to do the research, but the very first Aliens Act controlling foreigners coming here and stealing our jobs was only 1905;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_Act_1905
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    The listing doesn't matter too much. It might be the case that (assuming they're raising fund) the investors are all in the UK. Of course it won't, but you get my point.

    There are some US companies that list on AIM as a precursor to Nasdaq.

    Small negative though it is the ongoing theme is negative. When do you wake up and look? NY time? London needs to have some victories here.
    You're looking at it from the point of view of a personal investor rather than an investment fund which now has to take a riskier approach of investing overseas to benefit from growth in a really key part of the UK economy, tech and fintech.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,042
    geoffw said:

    We had an 'au pair' before UK joined the Common Market. Why does the arrangement have anything to do with the EU?

    Historically, au pairs (and by the way, not all au pairs are from EU and ex-EU countries) were not paid. They would come to learn English at some college, and would get board, lodging and some small pocket money. Presumably, as they were enrolled at a college, they would come on education visas. Not clear why that couldn't still be the case.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
    There's a whole glorious tradition;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop
    Couple of things that have forced me to unlurk and post:

    Firstly, I was boy bishop of Hereford, in I think 1990 or 1991. Part of the glorious but odd tradition.

    Secondly while I'm here, isn't the idea behind au-pair exchanges that it's just a good opportunity for young people to spend some time getting to know the culture of a foreign country while being paid a bit of pocket money, and a handy source of cheap childcare for families? Nothing more than that, but rather a pleasant and generally harmless win-win for everyone rather like doing a grape harvest in France or working for the summer at a US holiday camp.

    Back before 1973 au pair exchanges were possible because the countries' immigration rules were flexible enough to allow them. Post Brexit they are not.

    Brexit arguments seem to have descended into a form of ultra-utilitarianism where unless something has a clear, demonstrable economic impact or the lack of it will cause great suffering it's not considered worthy of discussion. Au Pair exchanges one of those - the country can live without them, but what benefit is it to anyone to prevent them?
    The benefit is there has to be a line drawn somewhere and that with a quarter of a million net migration per annum the decision has been made to draw the line at the NHS, the highly skilled, well paid who pay taxes and those areas with skill shortages. Au pairs aren't any of those. 🤷‍♂️

    The line has to be drawn somewhere, if that's not where we draw it then where should it be drawn in your eyes?
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    MaxPB said:

    Omnium said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've lost another one, Babylon is going to list in the US for $4bn. While Bailey is banging on about what the EU is or isn't doing we're losing UK tech companies to US listings. The problem is absolutely urgent now. Babylon has the potential to become £100bn healthcare technology behemoth, it's based in London, it's got a UK workforce, it benefits from being in the UK and yet US investors will benefit from its listing.

    The listing doesn't matter too much. It might be the case that (assuming they're raising fund) the investors are all in the UK. Of course it won't, but you get my point.

    There are some US companies that list on AIM as a precursor to Nasdaq.

    Small negative though it is the ongoing theme is negative. When do you wake up and look? NY time? London needs to have some victories here.
    You're looking at it from the point of view of a personal investor rather than an investment fund which now has to take a riskier approach of investing overseas to benefit from growth in a really key part of the UK economy, tech and fintech.
    I think I addressed exactly that in the final paragraph.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,052
    What I don't understand about the Salmond documents is that surely we all know what is in them anyway. Why do you redact something that is already public? Would this stop the committee being able to question Sturgeon on those specifics? Is that all it is?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,901
    kinabalu said:

    On topic. So the trend is that fairly soon heterosexuality will be a sub-culture. You'll check into your hotel in a big city and ask the concierge, "So, where the straight scene round here?" He'll grin and direct you to the nearest Berni Inn.

    I seem to recall something like that happening in The Forever War.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    We had an 'au pair' before UK joined the Common Market. Why does the arrangement have anything to do with the EU?

    Historically, au pairs (and by the way, not all au pairs are from EU and ex-EU countries) were not paid. They would come to learn English at some college, and would get board, lodging and some small pocket money. Presumably, as they were enrolled at a college, they would come on education visas. Not clear why that couldn't still be the case.
    Minimum wage laws, I'd expect.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732

    I might write a thread this weekend on au pair, I know it might shock many PBers but I hired an au pair, it was for the cultural exchange, it helped turned foreigners in pure anglophiles which is always a bonus for the UK.

    There were only two real downsides to hiring an au pair.

    1) My mother yelling at me for letting some stranger look after her grandkid

    2) A certain genre of movies had given me an unrealistic expectation of just what an au pair is willing to do.

    From the age of 5-10 years old, so both sides of joining the EEC, my sibs and I were brought up by a string of au pairs. My mother was in and out of hospital with multi resistant TB, and my dad needed to work. We did OK and most of the au pairs were a delight, it worked out well all round.

    The only one who caused a scandal in the neighbourhood was a French one. We discovered how racist some of our neighbours were when we "brought a black into the neighbourhood". In reality she was far higher class than them, being a wealthy Dahomeyan and student at the Sorbonne, who dressed in magnificent West African outfits.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,901

    What I don't understand about the Salmond documents is that surely we all know what is in them anyway. Why do you redact something that is already public? Would this stop the committee being able to question Sturgeon on those specifics? Is that all it is?

    Seems to be. I feel like those hoping for a dramatic conclusion may be overestimating how much the Committee will be able to get out everyone by being to ask about it.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Boris Johnson just fronted Tory PPB on tv, plenty of praise for scientists, innovation and green technology.

    No mention or any upcoming local elections in England. Make of it what you will.
  • Options
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
    There's a whole glorious tradition;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop
    Couple of things that have forced me to unlurk and post:

    Firstly, I was boy bishop of Hereford, in I think 1990 or 1991. Part of the glorious but odd tradition.

    Secondly while I'm here, isn't the idea behind au-pair exchanges that it's just a good opportunity for young people to spend some time getting to know the culture of a foreign country while being paid a bit of pocket money, and a handy source of cheap childcare for families? Nothing more than that, but rather a pleasant and generally harmless win-win for everyone rather like doing a grape harvest in France or working for the summer at a US holiday camp.

    Back before 1973 au pair exchanges were possible because the countries' immigration rules were flexible enough to allow them. Post Brexit they are not.

    Brexit arguments seem to have descended into a form of ultra-utilitarianism where unless something has a clear, demonstrable economic impact or the lack of it will cause great suffering it's not considered worthy of discussion. Au Pair exchanges one of those - the country can live without them, but what benefit is it to anyone to prevent them?
    Firstly- not quite welcome aboard, but I'm glad to give you an excuse to delurk.

    Second- I think you're right on the substantive point. One of my guiding stars is the Ernest Bevin quote, "My policy is to be able to take a ticket at Victoria station and go anywhere I damn well please!". Which is why the current government's implementation of the 2016 mandate seems like a terrible mistake...
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,413

    What I don't understand about the Salmond documents is that surely we all know what is in them anyway. Why do you redact something that is already public? Would this stop the committee being able to question Sturgeon on those specifics? Is that all it is?

    It is very murky. As far as I can tell, what the redaction does, potentially, is prevent the inquiry considering the evidence that Sturgeon lied to Holyrood, and thus remove any chance of her being censured, and thus forced to resign.

    I think. But maybe there is more?

    As ever, the cover-up looks worse than the original "crime". The SNP is immune to many things, but maybe it is not immune to this age-old rule of political scandals.

  • Options
    geoffw said:

    We had an 'au pair' before UK joined the Common Market. Why does the arrangement have anything to do with the EU?

    It doesn't directly - it is the new points based immigration rules which apply to all countries except Ireland.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,732
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
    There's a whole glorious tradition;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop
    Couple of things that have forced me to unlurk and post:

    Firstly, I was boy bishop of Hereford, in I think 1990 or 1991. Part of the glorious but odd tradition.

    Secondly while I'm here, isn't the idea behind au-pair exchanges that it's just a good opportunity for young people to spend some time getting to know the culture of a foreign country while being paid a bit of pocket money, and a handy source of cheap childcare for families? Nothing more than that, but rather a pleasant and generally harmless win-win for everyone rather like doing a grape harvest in France or working for the summer at a US holiday camp.

    Back before 1973 au pair exchanges were possible because the countries' immigration rules were flexible enough to allow them. Post Brexit they are not.

    Brexit arguments seem to have descended into a form of ultra-utilitarianism where unless something has a clear, demonstrable economic impact or the lack of it will cause great suffering it's not considered worthy of discussion. Au Pair exchanges one of those - the country can live without them, but what benefit is it to anyone to prevent them?
    I agree. Permit them on 6-12 month visas, like agricultural workers, with no right of extension. Works well for everyone and not clandestine migration results.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,237

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, although it’s separate from his inability to answer a question which is painfully reminiscent of Tristram Hunt, does anyone else think Williamson has an incredibly unpleasant voice?

    Yes. A strange mix of creepy and immature.

    Perhaps not his fault, but a serious deficit in a politician. And it's not as though there are any countervailing positives.
    And remember, this guy was Chief Whip for TM the PM. His job was bossing MPs about.

    Bizarrely, he was apparently quite effective at that.

    But just imagine him in the lead role in House of Cards.
    You may say that. I couldn't possibly comment.
    Without sounding like a 12 year old vicar that is.
    I knew there was a shortage of vicars, but I’m surprised to learn they’re pushing twelve year olds into service. In my experience it’s usually people in their 70s.
    There's a whole glorious tradition;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop
    Couple of things that have forced me to unlurk and post:

    Firstly, I was boy bishop of Hereford, in I think 1990 or 1991. Part of the glorious but odd tradition.

    Secondly while I'm here, isn't the idea behind au-pair exchanges that it's just a good opportunity for young people to spend some time getting to know the culture of a foreign country while being paid a bit of pocket money, and a handy source of cheap childcare for families? Nothing more than that, but rather a pleasant and generally harmless win-win for everyone rather like doing a grape harvest in France or working for the summer at a US holiday camp.

    Back before 1973 au pair exchanges were possible because the countries' immigration rules were flexible enough to allow them. Post Brexit they are not.

    Brexit arguments seem to have descended into a form of ultra-utilitarianism where unless something has a clear, demonstrable economic impact or the lack of it will cause great suffering it's not considered worthy of discussion. Au Pair exchanges one of those - the country can live without them, but what benefit is it to anyone to prevent them?
    Firstly- not quite welcome aboard, but I'm glad to give you an excuse to delurk.

    Second- I think you're right on the substantive point. One of my guiding stars is the Ernest Bevin quote, "My policy is to be able to take a ticket at Victoria station and go anywhere I damn well please!". Which is why the current government's implementation of the 2016 mandate seems like a terrible mistake...
    Covid aside, where is it you can't go now? Confused.
  • Options

    I might write a thread this weekend on au pair, I know it might shock many PBers but I hired an au pair, it was for the cultural exchange, it helped turned foreigners in pure anglophiles which is always a bonus for the UK.

    There were only two real downsides to hiring an au pair.

    1) My mother yelling at me for letting some stranger look after her grandkid

    2) A certain genre of movies had given me an unrealistic expectation of just what an au pair is willing to do.

    Like the "oh, too many Erasmus students come to the UK, we lose on the deal", I suspect that the soft power benefits of having young people spending formative years in the UK is worth a lot to the UK. I know I care a lot more about Spain because of the time I spent working there.

    As for the whole "we had au pairs before the EEC" thing, I wonder how porous borders were then? I genuinely don't know, but I suspect governments couldn't manage borders as rigourously then, even had they wanted to. I haven't got time to do the research, but the very first Aliens Act controlling foreigners coming here and stealing our jobs was only 1905;

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens_Act_1905
    The depressing thing about it all is that we already had an advantage, the English language was the second language for most of these people, coming over and staying here turned them into Anglophiles.

    Now that advantage is lost, we've lost another soft power.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,992
    One thing is for sure. Au pairs and tech companies listing in New York will be the talk of the Red Wall this evening for sure.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    And the last Commodore and Amiga computers.

    And that was a crying shame. Commodore has been mostly written out of computer industry history, even though their machines were often flat-out incredible. And the Amiga was like something that teleported in from the future.
This discussion has been closed.