Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

BREXIT: Undoing (some of) the damage. Part 1: The Principles – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 10 in General
imageBREXIT: Undoing (some of) the damage. Part 1: The Principles – politicalbetting.com

Just a few weeks in, and the practical effects of re-erecting the trade barriers which the UK spent 40 years helping to dismount are becoming more obvious by the day. Remarkably, it seems to have come as a complete surprise to the government that the EU rules which it had itself been enforcing up until Dec 31st in respect of imports from ‘third countries’ now apply to us.  Every day, new stories emerge of businesses cruelly throttled by the extra red tape and costs we signed up to – especially small, entrepreneurial businesses. Our exports are being badly hit.  Importing costs have rocketed. We are now reduced to begging the EU to change its rules, or at least defer their application, in order to mitigate the chaos we have created in moving goods from one part of the UK to another. 

Read the full story here

«134567

Comments

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420
    A great, and realistic header.

    Starmer would do well to read the thread and create a trade policy out of Mr Navabi's narrative. Starmer would find it much more productive than wrapping himself in the Union flag.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,960
    Excellent header Richard. I smiled when you described this government as being 'blinded by anti EU ideology'. As if......

  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,960
    edited February 10

    A great, and realistic header.

    Starmer would do well to read the thread and create a trade policy out of Mr Navabi's narrative. Starmer would find it much more productive than wrapping himself in the Union flag.

    I agree. He's becoming an embarrassment. Are the non Tory public really impressed by this faux patriotism? It's creepy
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420
    Roger said:

    A great, and realistic header.

    Starmer would do well to read the thread and create a trade policy out of Mr Navabi's narrative. Starmer would find it much more productive than wrapping himself in the Union flag.

    I agree. He's becoming an embarrassment. Are the non Tory public really impressed by this faux patriotism? It's creepy
    I wouldn't go that far, but he is letting the grass grow under his feet, and he is hamstrung by an invisible Shadow Cabinet. Shaking up the front bench and taking on a positive platform regarding EU trade would be a good start.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,028

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    edited February 10
    Great article, no surprises there.

    Just disappointing that it needs to be written.

    Oh and a correction - Brexiters absolutely did vote Leave in order to restrict the movement of musicians between the EU and the UK.
  • eek said:

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.

    All the things that anyone who had any experience of trading inside the single market and customs union knew would happen are happening. We are also beginning to see companies relocate at least some of their operations to within the EU in order to avoid the barriers that the UK government has created. They will not close here, but opportunities that would have been created for British citizens and residents - and the tax revenues they would have generated - will now be created in other countries. I am not sure what the government can do about that.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    Call me Dr Suspicious, Richard, but do I get the distinct feeling you’re pissed off with the weakness and ineptitude of all our current political parties?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,922
    edited February 10
    About 10th. Really, this time.

    Good piece.

    I would probably add - Ambassadorial Status for EU. Not a time to be flying that particular flag.

    And I would note that the EU side are also going to need particular things, as for example they are not going to be able to ratify the FTA in current timescales.

    So anything done cannot reopen the negotiation easily, as that will let the EP in there with their chopsticks. Though they may be trying to apply goldplating, if the leaked documents are anything to go by.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 3,929
    For those who know... is the red tape required for exporting to the EU just the same as you would expect to export to anywhere else? Eh Australia, the USA, Burkina Faso? Or does the EU somehow do things differently?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    TOPPING said:

    Great article, no surprises there.

    Just disappointing that it needs to be written.

    Oh and a correction - Brexiters absolutely did vote Leave in order to restrict the movement of musicians between the EU and the UK.

    So the article is not in a chord with the situation?

    Have a good morning.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,028

    For those who know... is the red tape required for exporting to the EU just the same as you would expect to export to anywhere else? Eh Australia, the USA, Burkina Faso? Or does the EU somehow do things differently?

    We have to do the paperwork the EU wants - that can be completely different to say what the USA needs to see.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 64,268
    I see Prince Charles has received his first jab dose today. We seem to have a good system in terms of people getting vaccinated when it is "their turn" here compared to what's going off in other countries !
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454
    Agree that 'we can't go on like this'! And it does appear that although many of the problems were not foreseeable in detail, they were in principle.

    I'm not a historian, although I've always been interested in the subject, and it does appear to me that, as I've posted before, we are in a similar situation to that which we were in the the 17th Century. The question is, are we in a situation where King Charles has been restored and we're trying to work out a modus vivendi between Europeans and Independents, or are we further back and his father has been beheaded and we have to cope with the Lord Protector? (I know Cromwell didn't take the job immediately after January 1649).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    eek said:

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.

    All the things that anyone who had any experience of trading inside the single market and customs union knew would happen are happening. We are also beginning to see companies relocate at least some of their operations to within the EU in order to avoid the barriers that the UK government has created. They will not close here, but opportunities that would have been created for British citizens and residents - and the tax revenues they would have generated - will now be created in other countries. I am not sure what the government can do about that.

    Double the number of flags on display behind Boris, that should do the trick.
  • I agree actually with much of what Mr Nabavi has written. Not the hyperbole about sanity or reality etc which was unnecessary but on the general specifics made. I see no reason to restrict musicians etc

    Continual bilateral renegotiations a la Switzerland I actually find to be the best solution and always have. It is the EU that have been against that more than the UK.

    Bilateral cherrypicking is precisely what negotiations should do. Over time I expect that will evolve.
    eek said:

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.
    That's a misrepresentation of my position. I have said I always expected issues. Some will indeed be teething problems but others as I have said will require adjustments. A new equilibrium I have said a few times. If it was just minor short term inconveniences there'd be no need for a new equilibrium.

    Currently some business models that worked for five years ago won't work anymore and will need to change.

    Change and evolution is a part of life.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 2,474
    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 2,474

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    MANNERING, Damned predictive text.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 3,929
    eek said:

    For those who know... is the red tape required for exporting to the EU just the same as you would expect to export to anywhere else? Eh Australia, the USA, Burkina Faso? Or does the EU somehow do things differently?

    We have to do the paperwork the EU wants - that can be completely different to say what the USA needs to see.
    Of course. I'm just trying to establish whether the EU is fairly normal in what it requires, or whether it's requirements are comparatively excessive, or maybe light-touch
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,294

    For those who know... is the red tape required for exporting to the EU just the same as you would expect to export to anywhere else? Eh Australia, the USA, Burkina Faso? Or does the EU somehow do things differently?

    About the same with minor variations from my experience of operating Dura Ace's Porsche Parts Souk.

    However, the EU is vast and proximate market. It was about 80% of my sales and 60% of my purchases so it's gone from very easy to a pain in the dick. A lot of the deals have moved off eBay on to Facebook and Vkontakte groups so a price can be settled and fraudulent declarations of value made. I'm just buying, not selling, as a result and I'm doing all that through my French eBay account.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    MANNERING, Damned predictive text.
    And that of course is American-initiated and nothing to do with the EU!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,960

    Interesting article, Richard - targeted practical suggestions that span across the Leave/Remain for once, which is refreshing. And I actually agree with quite a bit of it.

    I think SPS equivalence/LPF on the same basis as state aid (arbitrated by the UK/EU council) seems a no-brainer to me. I'd even pay a little bit of money in to sweeten the pill.

    I also don't see much harm in temporary free movement for workers (on a 90-day basis, say) just as for tourists, which can cover most business/services trips and music tours.

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    Everything that's wrong with the ideologically driven Tory flag wavers in a single post.

    Quite depressing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,201
    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    MANNERING, Damned predictive text.
    Mainwaring!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,953
    edited February 10
    Pulpstar said:

    I see Prince Charles has received his first jab dose today. We seem to have a good system in terms of people getting vaccinated when it is "their turn" here compared to what's going off in other countries !

    In Portugal, the favourite baker of somebody responsible for vaccine roll out got jabbed....they are now on their second head of vaccine delivery.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420
    Dura_Ace said:

    For those who know... is the red tape required for exporting to the EU just the same as you would expect to export to anywhere else? Eh Australia, the USA, Burkina Faso? Or does the EU somehow do things differently?

    About the same with minor variations from my experience of operating Dura Ace's Porsche Parts Souk.

    However, the EU is vast and proximate market. It was about 80% of my sales and 60% of my purchases so it's gone from very easy to a pain in the dick. A lot of the deals have moved off eBay on to Facebook and Vkontakte groups so a price can be settled and fraudulent declarations of value made. I'm just buying, not selling, as a result and I'm doing all that through my French eBay account.
    So post Brexit Britain becomes post War Vienna. I am sure there are plenty of Harry Limes to culture the grey economy. Not optimal when we need to collect as many tax pounds as we can.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697
    Pulpstar said:

    I see Prince Charles has received his first jab dose today. We seem to have a good system in terms of people getting vaccinated when it is "their turn" here compared to what's going off in other countries !

    Shame we haven’t cracked the paying tax when it’s “their turn” thing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,766

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
  • Good article that proposes a sensible compromise and also to leave behind the remainer and leaver tags

    My only concern is that to restoring friendly relations with the EU is a two way street and it will need the EU itself to come to terms that we have left, and recognise that good relations is mutually beneficial
  • tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    Me neither.

    The only criticism I'd make of Mr Nabavi's proposals is that the EU more than the UK arguably has been the one standing in the way. They're the ones who have been against Swiss negotiations. They're unhappy with us and acting like a jilted ex lover.

    The UK as friendly neighbours of the EU is what most Brexiteers want. The EU though has to adjust to recognising the UK as sovereign equals and a friendly neighbour instead of being bitter or imperial seeking to make us a subject in their sphere of influence - a concept that really ought to have been eliminated from the West after WWII.

    It takes two to tango.
  • eekeek Posts: 11,028
    edited February 10

    I agree actually with much of what Mr Nabavi has written. Not the hyperbole about sanity or reality etc which was unnecessary but on the general specifics made. I see no reason to restrict musicians etc

    Continual bilateral renegotiations a la Switzerland I actually find to be the best solution and always have. It is the EU that have been against that more than the UK.

    Bilateral cherrypicking is precisely what negotiations should do. Over time I expect that will evolve.

    eek said:

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.
    That's a misrepresentation of my position. I have said I always expected issues. Some will indeed be teething problems but others as I have said will require adjustments. A new equilibrium I have said a few times. If it was just minor short term inconveniences there'd be no need for a new equilibrium.

    Currently some business models that worked for five years ago won't work anymore and will need to change.

    Change and evolution is a part of life.
    I think the difference is that you expect the EU to make those changes, while I expect that 99% of the time the EU response is going to very much along the lines of:

    Sadly you didn't think about that at the time. We've found local suppliers and worked around the problem. Sorry about those UK jobs.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    Be fair, comrades; a post apologising and blaming (reasonably) predictive text followed immediately afterwards.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,960

    Roger said:

    Interesting article, Richard - targeted practical suggestions that span across the Leave/Remain for once, which is refreshing. And I actually agree with quite a bit of it.

    I think SPS equivalence/LPF on the same basis as state aid (arbitrated by the UK/EU council) seems a no-brainer to me. I'd even pay a little bit of money in to sweeten the pill.

    I also don't see much harm in temporary free movement for workers (on a 90-day basis, say) just as for tourists, which can cover most business/services trips and music tours.

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    Everything that's wrong with the ideologically driven Tory flag wavers in a single post.

    Quite depressing.
    Woger has called it.

    We're all on the right lines, peeps.
    Ironic that all your 'likes' are from the site's flag wavers. Once more with feeling Big G .....and you can do the descant Carlotta.....

    "Two World Wars and One World Cup....."
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    We appreciate that in Scotland, there are far more important battles than WW2....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    I'm sure they don't care about you.

    Plus your response (liked by @BigPhil) rather does beg the question of what party should one support if one is in favour of the Union as it stands?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,118

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697
    edited February 10

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    Be fair, comrades; a post apologising and blaming (reasonably) predictive text followed immediately afterwards.
    With the wrong spelling! Afaicr Mainwaring being pompous about how his name was pronounced was a recurring joke.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,118
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting article, Richard - targeted practical suggestions that span across the Leave/Remain for once, which is refreshing. And I actually agree with quite a bit of it.

    I think SPS equivalence/LPF on the same basis as state aid (arbitrated by the UK/EU council) seems a no-brainer to me. I'd even pay a little bit of money in to sweeten the pill.

    I also don't see much harm in temporary free movement for workers (on a 90-day basis, say) just as for tourists, which can cover most business/services trips and music tours.

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    Everything that's wrong with the ideologically driven Tory flag wavers in a single post.

    Quite depressing.
    Woger has called it.

    We're all on the right lines, peeps.
    Ironic that all your 'likes' are from the site's flag wavers. Once more with feeling Big G .....and you can do the descant Carlotta.....

    "Two World Wars and One World Cup....."
    Lol. I live for a like from you, Wodge.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    Indeed. Clearly something is lost in the Russian translation. The name and idiosyncratic spelling of the name of the Arthur Lowe character is a constant comedic thread throughout the entire run, fuelled both by the Regional Commander, Small and Mr Cheeseman.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 13,103

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    You guys are so sensitive
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,420

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    Indeed. Clearly something is lost in the Russian translation. The name and idiosyncratic spelling of the name of the Arthur Lowe character is a constant comedic thread throughout the entire run, fuelled both by the Regional Commander, Small and Mr Cheeseman.
    I can't recall whether one of Mainwaring's nemesis characters is Large or Small? Perhaps I am Russian too.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170
    edited February 10
    https://english.elpais.com/society/2021-02-10/coronavirus-cases-in-spain-officially-top-three-million.html?utm_source=Facebook&ssm=FB_CM_EN&fbclid=IwAR3DduKccVFui4sJd5TWUcerbpb0gBgLR2SI7DK8XvSKyk7cL3WxVKckuoo#Echobox=1612948983

    Ep Pais has the second highest circulation of any paper in Spain and its political stance is centre-left and we have a centre -left government.

    A very interesting read on the accuracy of Spain's figures for both infections and deaths from Covid.
  • eek said:

    I agree actually with much of what Mr Nabavi has written. Not the hyperbole about sanity or reality etc which was unnecessary but on the general specifics made. I see no reason to restrict musicians etc

    Continual bilateral renegotiations a la Switzerland I actually find to be the best solution and always have. It is the EU that have been against that more than the UK.

    Bilateral cherrypicking is precisely what negotiations should do. Over time I expect that will evolve.

    eek said:

    I agree with Richard's package. I think it's difficult for anyone who favoured Remain to propose it (Starmer or anyone else) because it will be framed as both Remoanerism and a distraction from the pandemic. I hate to say it, but in trade terms it probably needs to be more obviously problematic before public opinion, currently understandably obsessed by the pandemic, will swing into "OK, something must be done" mode about post-Brexit arrangements. This seems to be happening in Northern Ireland - the rest of the UK is largely oblivious to the issue.

    I think you can see that on this site. @RochdalePioneers, myself and others point out that the issues we are experiencing are real but @Philip_Thompson just brushes them off as minor short term inconveniences.

    And it's the experts / industry who are complaining while the general public can't see the issues.
    That's a misrepresentation of my position. I have said I always expected issues. Some will indeed be teething problems but others as I have said will require adjustments. A new equilibrium I have said a few times. If it was just minor short term inconveniences there'd be no need for a new equilibrium.

    Currently some business models that worked for five years ago won't work anymore and will need to change.

    Change and evolution is a part of life.
    I think the difference is that you expect the EU to make those changes, while I expect that 99% of the time the EU response is going to very much along the lines of:

    Sadly you didn't think about that at the time. We've found local suppliers and worked around the problem. Sorry about those UK jobs.
    No I don't expect the EU to make those changes. Where on earth did you get the idea I find the EU to be nimble, agile or adept at making changes?

    I thought that I'd made myself clear that I find the EU to be sclerotic, rigid and slow moving.

    I think the UK can more easily make changes than the EU can ... and businesses themselves can more easily make changes than the UK can ... and people can more easily make changes than businesses can.

    The smaller you are, the fewer people making decisions, the easier it is to change course and adapt.

    The EU's chronic inability to make changes is one advantage of being outside of the organisation.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,996
    Thanks @RichardNabavi for the header. It is good to see thoughts gradually turning to the constructive. I am looking forward to the promised 'practical' thread - this one was quite light on detail, heavy on scolding.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,881
    Excellent article Richard. I'm struggling to think of anything to add. Sometime ago I posted that I thought that over the following years we would be carrying out endless little negotiations to undo the damage. I think everyone of your breakdown points on how that should happen is spot on.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 113
    Pulpstar said:

    I see Prince Charles has received his first jab dose today. We seem to have a good system in terms of people getting vaccinated when it is "their turn" here compared to what's going off in other countries !

    Yes, they have been very sensible in making sure high profile people are not skipping the queue. Although in Prince Charles' case there probably wasn't too much risk as he has been through Covid already along with Camilla.

    Also the publicity of high profile people getting jabbed has been beneficial. There is an issue though with the comparative lack of update in the BAME community. For the sake of everyone this needs to be fixed. I am not sure who the best people would be to front a campaign for this but they need to find them quickly. I know a few MPs have made a video but more is required.
  • tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    Me neither.

    The only criticism I'd make of Mr Nabavi's proposals is that the EU more than the UK arguably has been the one standing in the way. They're the ones who have been against Swiss negotiations. They're unhappy with us and acting like a jilted ex lover.

    The UK as friendly neighbours of the EU is what most Brexiteers want. The EU though has to adjust to recognising the UK as sovereign equals and a friendly neighbour instead of being bitter or imperial seeking to make us a subject in their sphere of influence - a concept that really ought to have been eliminated from the West after WWII.

    It takes two to tango.
    So the EU was more like a "warsaw pact"?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    You guys are so sensitive
    Lotta snowflakes about at the mo’
  • TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    I'm sure they don't care about you.

    Plus your response (liked by @BigPhil) rather does beg the question of what party should one support if one is in favour of the Union as it stands?
    My English Nationalism and wanting the breakup of the union runs against Tory Party policy not in favour of it. I am an exception not the rule and I know that.

    Or in the words of HYUFD "not a real Conservative" despite having been an active member and activist for seventeen years (excluding May's tenure as leader).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 16,201
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    I'm sure they don't care about you.

    Plus your response (liked by @BigPhil) rather does beg the question of what party should one support if one is in favour of the Union as it stands?
    I'm sure they don't!

    But it's a bit of an odd one. What we have now is a prelude to Northern Ireland leaving the UK. I thought the comments of Mary Lou McDonald were interesting:

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-sinn-feins-mary-lou-mcdonald-says-disruption-shouldnt-come-as-a-surprise-12211582

    Sinn Fein can't really get too upset about this situation. They can rub salt into the Unionist wound, and I certainly don't begrudge them enjoying the pain of the DUP. But they can't get upset with a country that they ultimately don't want to be a part of.

    My problem with the Northern Ireland situation is the sense that Brexit shouldn't have been allowed to happen because it's an inconvenience to the island of Ireland (Mary Lou McDonald rightly points out this affect the whole island).

    Just as Britain has to accept that it is smaller than the EU, Ireland will always have to accept that it is considerably smaller than Britain.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454

    The best way to sort out the mess with Brexit us to make things 10x more difficult for the EU, especially the perfidious French. They won't like it up em Capt Mannerism!

    Fool! And it's Mainwaring.
    Can’t spell the name of an iconic character from one of our many love letters to 1939-45? Are we sure this cove is even British?
    Be fair, comrades; a post apologising and blaming (reasonably) predictive text followed immediately afterwards.
    With the wrong spelling! Afaicr Mainwaring being pompous about how his name was pronounced was a recurring joke.
    Point noted.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    Seen reports that signatures needed for nominations in the locals will be cut from 10 to 2, and PCC might only need 2 per council area.

    If so that seems like big news, could be fewer uncontested seats and more candidates generally.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,766

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    Their behaviour is their responsibility. Ours is our own.

    You seem to be stuck in a zero-sum view of establishing precedence and moral dominance.

    The EU isn't China. Showing respect does not mean being craven. We just have to cut out being actively disrespectful.

    If they don't reciprocate at first then we just have to wait it out until they come to their senses. It shouldn't stop us acting respectfully ourselves.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454
    Deleted. Duplication. FFS.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 6,294

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    You guys are so sensitive
    Steady on. The EU insulted a vaccine. The bastards.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,881

    Dura_Ace said:

    Interesting article by RN. What's more interesting is how far the tories have moved from their pragmatic and mercantile principles, as typified by RN's sedulous proposals, in pursuit of simple minded flag wanker zealotry.

    Yep - that is a very good point. That the Tories are no longer capable of doing what Richard suggests is very telling. We can't negotiate a freedom of movement deal for musicians and others, just as we can't do it for retirees, because it would mean giving reciprocal rights to EU citizens - and that is politically impossible for this government. What a ridiculous situation to be in.

    As mentioned before a friend of mine sold up, bought a camper van and started touring Europe, doing no harm to anyone. Planned to do this for a few years before settling back in the UK. Now parked in his son's drive! An obviously identifiable freedom lost for some abstract freedoms gained.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170

    Clearly, the government will do what it believes is best for the government. Currently, that means confrontation with the EU at every possibility as it is how it will keep its voting coalition together. That the EU is far too stupid and stuck up its own arse to understand this is a huge help.

    Lol - sad but pretty accurate. I find myself musing at how much of the mutual antipathy has its roots in at least the c19th if not earlier. Maybe the current situation is just the norm re-asserting itself after a brief rapprochement.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,996
    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    Of course we could have. But we wouldn't have. Cameron and Osborne wouldn't, David Milliband wouldn't. But there wasn't a referendum on replacing the supine political class wholesale with one that would defend Britain's interests fiercely, there was a referendum on Brexit.

    Cameron could have negotiated a very comfortable associate membership had he so desired. We could never have got rid of FOM, but he could have packaged it in enough benefits restrictions (that were within his powers anyway) to please most people. He didn't want to do that.
  • TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 82,645
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    I'm sure they don't care about you.

    Plus your response (liked by @BigPhil) rather does beg the question of what party should one support if one is in favour of the Union as it stands?
    I'm sure they don't!

    But it's a bit of an odd one. What we have now is a prelude to Northern Ireland leaving the UK. I thought the comments of Mary Lou McDonald were interesting:

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-sinn-feins-mary-lou-mcdonald-says-disruption-shouldnt-come-as-a-surprise-12211582

    Sinn Fein can't really get too upset about this situation. They can rub salt into the Unionist wound, and I certainly don't begrudge them enjoying the pain of the DUP. But they can't get upset with a country that they ultimately don't want to be a part of.

    My problem with the Northern Ireland situation is the sense that Brexit shouldn't have been allowed to happen because it's an inconvenience to the island of Ireland (Mary Lou McDonald rightly points out this affect the whole island).

    Just as Britain has to accept that it is smaller than the EU, Ireland will always have to accept that it is considerably smaller than Britain.
    On the latest polling more Northern Ireland voters still want to stay in the UK than leave it and of course County Antrim, the largest county in NI, actually voted to Leave the EU
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,766
    edited February 10

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    It was Cameron that didn't take the renegotiation seriously, as shown by his failure to use the powers he already had, that are already used by other EU member states, to restrict freedom of movement.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 19,391
    Hmmm, based on data over the vaccination growth rates over the last 3 week I estimate that in 9 weeks time Scotland will be doing more vaccinations per day than England.

    Now, some might question why Scotland will be doing 1.2 million vaccinations per day but that's not for me to say, I just report the numbers.

    After a further 9 week Scotland will be delivering 6 covid vaccines per day to every person in Scotland. England, needless to say will be lagging behind not even able to vacciante everyone in the country in a single day.

    Cold hard facts.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    Me neither.

    The only criticism I'd make of Mr Nabavi's proposals is that the EU more than the UK arguably has been the one standing in the way. They're the ones who have been against Swiss negotiations. They're unhappy with us and acting like a jilted ex lover.

    The UK as friendly neighbours of the EU is what most Brexiteers want. The EU though has to adjust to recognising the UK as sovereign equals and a friendly neighbour instead of being bitter or imperial seeking to make us a subject in their sphere of influence - a concept that really ought to have been eliminated from the West after WWII.

    It takes two to tango.
    So the EU was more like a "warsaw pact"?
    Or perhaps a war-sore pact?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,922

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    Me neither.

    The only criticism I'd make of Mr Nabavi's proposals is that the EU more than the UK arguably has been the one standing in the way. They're the ones who have been against Swiss negotiations. They're unhappy with us and acting like a jilted ex lover.

    The UK as friendly neighbours of the EU is what most Brexiteers want. The EU though has to adjust to recognising the UK as sovereign equals and a friendly neighbour instead of being bitter or imperial seeking to make us a subject in their sphere of influence - a concept that really ought to have been eliminated from the West after WWII.

    It takes two to tango.
    So the EU was more like a "warsaw pact"?
    Only if they can both tango :smile: .
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    Urgently restore friendly relations with the EU.

    It's amazing how quickly the cluster**** of a couple of weeks ago has been forgotten.

    Interesting question, how many people give a **** about Northern Ireland? I certainly don't.

    I'm sure they don't care about you.

    Plus your response (liked by @BigPhil) rather does beg the question of what party should one support if one is in favour of the Union as it stands?
    I'm sure they don't!

    But it's a bit of an odd one. What we have now is a prelude to Northern Ireland leaving the UK. I thought the comments of Mary Lou McDonald were interesting:

    https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-sinn-feins-mary-lou-mcdonald-says-disruption-shouldnt-come-as-a-surprise-12211582

    Sinn Fein can't really get too upset about this situation. They can rub salt into the Unionist wound, and I certainly don't begrudge them enjoying the pain of the DUP. But they can't get upset with a country that they ultimately don't want to be a part of.

    My problem with the Northern Ireland situation is the sense that Brexit shouldn't have been allowed to happen because it's an inconvenience to the island of Ireland (Mary Lou McDonald rightly points out this affect the whole island).

    Just as Britain has to accept that it is smaller than the EU, Ireland will always have to accept that it is considerably smaller than Britain.
    Yes I think that is right. Of course that is secondary (as it was in the UK's decision to Brexit) to their desire for a united Ireland.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,953
    edited February 10
    Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, has been speaking to MEPs about the EU's vaccine rollout at the start of a debate on the bloc's vaccination strategy.

    "We’re going to work as hard as we possibly can to reach our objective so that by the end of the summer at least 70% of the population will be vaccinated," she says.

    But Von der Leyen admits that right now “we’re still not where we want to be".

    "We were late to authorise. We were too optimistic when it came to massive production, and perhaps too confident that what we ordered would actually be delivered on time.

    "We need to ask ourselves why that is the case and what lessons we can draw.”

    ------

    We all know the answer will be more EU in an ever closer union.
  • TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    It was Cameron that didn't take the renegotiation seriously, as shown by his failure to use the powers he already had, that are already used by other EU member states, to restrict freedom of movement.
    It doesn't matter.

    The simple fact is that was our one credible chance of getting real reform and it failed. Doesn't matter why it failed (and indeed Cameron does deserve some of the blame) the simple fact of the matter is it did.

    It's not all Cameron's fault though. It is hard to reform any institution let alone one as scelerotic as Europe with then 28 very different sets of interests to account for each with a veto on reform.

    The choice was ultimately stay in an unreformable Europe, or leave and control our own destiny.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    'The EU' isn't a monolith, though is it? The structures could do with reforming; what might have been appropriate in the evolution from the Coal and Steel Community aren't so any more and a lot more democratic control is required, but that might well have happened already, had the relevant bodies not been involved in the British posturing and preening.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    We are certainly not going to go over Dave's Deal again now suffice to say it was an excellent one which maintained our separate status and opt outs while allowing us to benefit from EU membership.

    But I also agree that the level of denial is such that it suits people such as yourself to say it was a "bad deal" because that makes it easier to dismiss it and feel ok about it.

    Saying it was a bad deal is illogical and you are many things, Philip, but illogical is not one of them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,766
    Alistair said:

    Hmmm, based on data over the vaccination growth rates over the last 3 week I estimate that in 9 weeks time Scotland will be doing more vaccinations per day than England.

    Now, some might question why Scotland will be doing 1.2 million vaccinations per day but that's not for me to say, I just report the numbers.

    After a further 9 week Scotland will be delivering 6 covid vaccines per day to every person in Scotland. England, needless to say will be lagging behind not even able to vacciante everyone in the country in a single day.

    Cold hard facts.

    That would be a stupendous effort given that, with the current rate of increase of snow, people in Scotland will be negotiating 100 foot snowdrifts by St Patrick's Day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 64,268
    Hopefully now we're out the Gov't can shift to pragmatism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    Of course we could have. But we wouldn't have. Cameron and Osborne wouldn't, David Milliband wouldn't. But there wasn't a referendum on replacing the supine political class wholesale with one that would defend Britain's interests fiercely, there was a referendum on Brexit.

    Cameron could have negotiated a very comfortable associate membership had he so desired. We could never have got rid of FOM, but he could have packaged it in enough benefits restrictions (that were within his powers anyway) to please most people. He didn't want to do that.
    "He" (as with Gordon Brown's Lisbon hokey-cokey) = democratically-elected Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

    So it was a wholly democratic decision. And as mentioned to @Philip_Thompson, his (Dave's) deal was a good 'un.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    So long, farewell, auf weidersehen, goodbye.....

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 29,456
    (FPT)

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Politico.com - Trump was quite displeased with his impeachment defense team
    The former president was frustrated with the meandering arguments. Some close to his defense team quit watching.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/09/trump-impeachment-team-468112

    For former President Donald Trump, the opening day of his second impeachment trial did not go as planned or to his liking.

    Cocooned at his Mar-a-Lago estate, Trump watched as his defense attorneys responded to an emotional presentation by House impeachment managers with a series of dry, technical and at times meandering arguments about due process and the constitutionality of the proceedings. As they droned on, he grew increasingly frustrated with the sharp contrast between their muted response and the prosecution’s opening salvo, according to two people familiar with his thinking.

    "President Trump was not happy with the performance of his legal team in action,” said one of the people familiar with his thinking.

    It didn’t help that his lead attorney, former Pennsylvania prosecutor Bruce Castor, name-checked Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.), who just days ago slammed his state party for their “weird worship” of Trump. Castor also referred to Trump as the “former president,” conceding that he had in fact lost the 2020 election when he was removed by “smart” voters last November. . . .

    At one point during Castor’s remarks, the right-wing network Newsmax––which Trump had been watching throughout the day, according to a person familiar with his viewing habits––cut away to a segment featuring the ex-president’s former impeachment attorney Alan Dershowitz.

    “I have no idea what he is doing,” Dershowitz said of Castor, shaking his head dismissively. “The American people are entitled to an argument… but this, just, after all kinds of very strong presentations on the part of the House managers… it does not appear to me to be effective advocacy.”

    Some of which I commented on when I was watching the speech live.

    The weirdest bit was when he cited the failure of the coup and the successful transfer of power to the new president as evidence that the system was working and no impeachment was necessary.

    Trump won’t have enjoyed watching his lawyer concede on his behalf.

    And from a criminal point of view, since when was an incompetent attempt at a crime ever a defence?
    Trump should have used this guy.
    Forget the cat guy - is Jerry L Phillips alive? He shows no emotion at the talking cat. I do worry for him.

    Why is the judge sitting in front of a satanic shrine?

    And is whoever recorded it and released that recording now in contempt of court?
    ....
    No, it was the judge.
    And wouldn't you want a satanic shrine, if one of the lawyers appearing before you is one of the undead, and the other a witch's familiar ?
  • I appreciate the sentiments of the header, but I'm not sure how we can act on them unilaterally given the EU's recent behaviour. It's becoming obvious that the EU sees us as a strategic competitor to be beaten, rather than a satellite state to be kept in the wider EU orbit. Conceding to a power that sees you as a strategic competitor might 'work' in the short term, but the reality is that they'll still see you as a competitor until you are sufficiently disempowered to ever compete again. I think hoping for the EU to have a change of heart and be nice if we roll over is foolhardy and historically doesn't seem to work.

    It makes sense to stop exports of vaccines to a country you're competing with; it doesn't make sense to do that to a country where you want the native population to see you in a positive light. It makes sense to unilaterally put up custom checks on a land border, after insisting custom checks would reignite civil unrest, with a country you're competing with; it doesn't make sense to do that with a satellite state where you want domestic stability. It makes sense to publicly undermine confidence in the vaccination strategy of a country you're competing with; it doesn't make sense to do that to a tributary whose economy you want to recover as quickly as possible.

    I'd compare this with Donald Trump. From a geopolitical perspective, Trump was dangerous because he saw US foreign policy as purely transactional. For Trump, strategic interests became strategic competitors, because Trump did not want to pay material costs (money, manpower) for immaterial benefits (influence, containment); in fact, he saw this as 'competitors' taking advantage of the US.

    Worryingly, the behaviour of the EU mirrors this Trumpish approach. The EU appears to be unwilling to make pay material costs, such as making favourable economic deals with the UK or not undermining vaccination efforts to conceal failings at home, to receive the benefits of keeping the UK within the EU sphere of influence.

    Even more worryingly, while Trump was eventually removed by the American electorate, there's no comparable mechanism to remove EU leaders. So rather that this being an unfortunate 4 year blip in EU foreign policy, we have to operate on the assumption that the EU's approach is unlikely to change in the near future.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,881

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    If you go into a negotiation with that attitude it ends pretty quickly without any progress. They know where they have screwed up and even if they don't they know where we think they have screwed up. Solve the problem at hand and don't go into a side show of telling them how awful they are because that goes nowhere.

    It might end up there anyway, but don't start with it because that is doomed to failure.

    Each side (in exchange) should give away stuff that has greater value to the other side, it then becomes a win/win.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 13,996

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    This is a very peculiar interpretation of Cameron's renegotiation. I seem to remember him asking for very little and getting even less.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 5,922
    edited February 10

    Alistair said:

    Hmmm, based on data over the vaccination growth rates over the last 3 week I estimate that in 9 weeks time Scotland will be doing more vaccinations per day than England.

    Now, some might question why Scotland will be doing 1.2 million vaccinations per day but that's not for me to say, I just report the numbers.

    After a further 9 week Scotland will be delivering 6 covid vaccines per day to every person in Scotland. England, needless to say will be lagging behind not even able to vacciante everyone in the country in a single day.

    Cold hard facts.

    That would be a stupendous effort given that, with the current rate of increase of snow, people in Scotland will be negotiating 100 foot snowdrifts by St Patrick's Day.
    I think that's slight winter-hyperbole :-) .

    We've had a long frosty spell at around 0C, at least here in the centre of the country, for what - 6 weeks? - that will do wonders for killing bugs that it is useful to have killed. Especially the exotic imports and slugs (I hope). 2021 may be a good year for Hostas.

    Just have to watch out for more people declaring that gardening is racist due to a preference for the native.



    It will be a notable winter here when I have to drive the car through single lane routes through snowdrifts that are higher than the car both sides. I think the last one was early 1990s.

    It would be fun to walk straight over 2m garden walls on the snow.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 4,428

    So long, farewell, auf weidersehen, goodbye.....

    In all seriousness this will, in about 5 years at least, have a significant impact on domestic electoral politics as these (quite possibly pro-EU) residents begin to become naturalised and vote.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 25,697
    HYUFD said:
    Greens - 10% to 23%
    AFD - 3% to 7%

    I could hardly contain my surprise at which figure Gooders finds significant.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 50,313
    edited February 10
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    My only bone of contention is that friendly relations work both ways. Some of the rhetoric coming out of the EU towards the UK has been reckless and appalling, including, insulting the AZN vaccine, sledging the UK, unilaterally triggering Article 16, insecure and thinly-veiled threats, and putting us in the same category as Russia (only weeks after doing a craven deal with China).

    There's a quid pro quo for it. And it starts with respect, and ending their obsession with trying to stiff the UK.

    The situation we want to get to is one where there is mutual respect. The part that is under our control is showing respect.

    Insisting that they show us the requisite respect first would not be a good start.
    They've treated us with none, and like dirt under their shoe, because of their own insecurities at being shown up with our vaccine success. They see us as a bigger threat than Russia or China to their "Project".

    That should tell all of us - Leavers and Remainers - that the EU is far from the omnipotent superpower some seem to think it is, and is actually weak and rather fragile. It suffers from its own creation myths and delusions of grandeur.

    And new round of negotiations needs to keep that in mind - it will be a negotiation of equals, and the UK will not be a supplicant.
    "Weak and fragile". And yet you didn't even think we could hold our own with it while a member and hence bottled it by leaving.
    I don't just think that, David Cameron demonstrated it.

    His failed renegotiation was one of the factors that pushed me over the edge, it showed the EU was incapable of serious reform. His suggested reforms were excellent but what he came back with was a plaster not real reform.

    Had the EU taken Cameron seriously then we wouldn't have left.
    We are certainly not going to go over Dave's Deal again now suffice to say it was an excellent one which maintained our separate status and opt outs while allowing us to benefit from EU membership.

    But I also agree that the level of denial is such that it suits people such as yourself to say it was a "bad deal" because that makes it easier to dismiss it and feel ok about it.

    Saying it was a bad deal is illogical and you are many things, Philip, but illogical is not one of them.
    "Maintained our separate status and opt outs while allowing us to benefit from EU membership"? That was the status quo.

    We already had all of that before Cameron started talking! If you're seeking reform then coming back and saying "we have achieved reform: we have maintained everything as it was" is not reform!

    Reform is actually changing thing. Changes with teeth and legally enforceable not warm words. None of the changes I was looking for, like the UK being protected from being outvoted QMV by the Eurozone acting as a bloc, ever arrived.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 723
    This is the best column I've read on the political situation in Scotland for a long time.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/09/sturgeon-johnson-scottish-exit-snp-brexit


    "There are swaths of England where the same faith is bestowed on “Boris” – more mascot than man: redeemer of the people’s mood with powers of jollification that transcend boring politics. That tune doesn’t carry in Scotland. Posh Anglo-Tory insouciance strikes all the wrong cultural notes. Sturgeon has mastered the less showy brand of charisma that seduces its audience into believing it is coolly rational and has not been swept up in a charismatic movement at all."

    Anti-charisma equals charisma in a Scottish context.
  • There doesn't seem to be any more info on this story the Sun splashed. The likes of BBC not touching it with a bargepole.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068
    Morning all. Thanks for the comments.

    As it happens, the law firm DLA Piper hosted a virtual event with Lord Mandelson yesterday, which covered some of the same ground and was very interesting indeed. Unfortunately I don't think a recording of it will be made available to the public. Much of what he said was very much along the same lines as I've proposed, in particular about not seeking to rejoin the EU in the foreseeable future. He made the very good point that if we were ever to try to rejoin, we shouldn't do so as a supplicant; we must concentrate now on building up our economic and international strength as a non-EU member.

    He also had some very interesting things to say about how the government's laudable aim of attracting businesses to 'Global Britain' risks being undermined by some of their other proposals. In particular he was scathing about the proposal to make company directors liable for audit failures, and also about the proposed legislation to give the government draconian powers to intervene in company takeovers even up to five years afterwards. Those aren't issues which have received much attention, but they deserve more. We're trying to attract businesses with one hand, and pushing them away with the other.
Sign In or Register to comment.