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Trump’s Christmas actions come under the most furious attack from CNN’s Chris Cuomo – politicalbetti

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited December 2020 in General
Trump’s Christmas actions come under the most furious attack from CNN’s Chris Cuomo – politicalbetting.com

The final month of the beaten incumbent US President’s looks set to be how he’ll be remembered. With so many millions of Americans being affected this could have an impact if he does decide to run at WH2024. It could also undermine the Republicans in the the critical Georgia runoffs on January 5th.

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    First
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    First like Trump.
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    We'll put this Cuomo guy down as a maybe.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK cases by specimen date

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K population

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    And I'm first too.

    Everybody's first! :smile::smile::smile:

    Happy Christmas.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK local R

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK case summary

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK hospitals

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK deaths

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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    UK R

    From cases

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    From hospitalisation data

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    And I'm first too.

    Everybody's first! :smile::smile::smile:

    Happy Christmas.

    Except Boris who could only come fifth. Ladbaby secured the Christmas Number One slot for the third year running.

    Christmas 2020 UK top five singles

    1 Don't Stop Me Eatin' - LadBaby
    2 All I Want For Christmas Is You - Mariah Carey
    3 Last Christmas - Wham!
    4 This Christmas - Jess Glynne
    5 Boris Johnson... - The K's


    Christmas 2020 UK top five albums

    1 McCartney III - Sir Paul McCartney
    2 Evermore - Taylor Swift
    3 Together at Christmas - Michael Ball and Alfie Boe
    4 Classic Diamonds - Neil Diamond and LSO
    5 Music Played by Humans - Gary Barlow

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55436050
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,168
    edited December 2020
    Trump has formed a surprising alliance with AOC however to increase emergency Covid payments from $600 to $2000 each and it has not gone down well with the laissez faire right

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1342554825465196544?s=20

    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1341572295769415682?s=20

    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1341867546065182720?s=20

    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1341861971096952834?s=20
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Hmmm, despite the polling being in the GOP favour it looks like Dem early voting is running ahead of the Presidential race at the moment.

    By Christmas and lack of in person early voting days completely screws up any analysis.

    I remain out of the market.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020
    Alistair said:

    Hmmm, despite the polling being in the GOP favour it looks like Dem early voting is running ahead of the Presidential race at the moment.

    By Christmas and lack of in person early voting days completely screws up any analysis.

    I remain out of the market.

    I wonder if the events of the last month or so could be completely screwing up the pollsters weighting assumptions as well.

    Republican voters must be thoroughly at a loss to know what on earth they are voting for.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    edited December 2020
    Interesting reading Obama's book it's apparent that the presidency is a job which requires continuous decision making and a huge amount of work. Obama is clearly committed and I'm a big fan of his values and the logical way he dealt with complex problems......but what I find extraordinary is that Trump could have done it. Being a figurehead just wouldn't work. It's a mystery how he got away with it
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,920
    Roger said:

    Interesting reading Obama's book it's apparent that the presidency is a job which requires continuous decision making and a huge amount of work. Obama is clearly committed and I'm a big fan of his values and the logical way he dealt with complex problems......but what I find extraordinary is that Trump could have done it. Being a figurehead just wouldn't work. It's a mystery how he got away with it

    Just got it for christmas and made a start.

    Presidency is probably a lot of work if you want to achieve something... lot less otherwise I'd imagine.
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    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
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    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,062
    Jurgen's Christmas message:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOBBJYe_HZg
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    rkrkrk said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting reading Obama's book it's apparent that the presidency is a job which requires continuous decision making and a huge amount of work. Obama is clearly committed and I'm a big fan of his values and the logical way he dealt with complex problems......but what I find extraordinary is that Trump could have done it. Being a figurehead just wouldn't work. It's a mystery how he got away with it

    Just got it for christmas and made a start.

    Presidency is probably a lot of work if you want to achieve something... lot less otherwise I'd imagine.
    Yes that's true but even sitting down for two or three hours with a foreign leader means you have to have background or you are going to suffer a major embarrassment. Then speeches to foreign audiences which was an Obama speciality
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    Nobody denies it will pass. That is not the point. Labour needs to move forward as much as anyone else. Starmer wants to start looking to the future. Labour needs to articulate a vision for the future based on the world as it is, not as they would like it to be. Creating a new split in the party by rebelling against Starmer's position will just continue a perception of the latter, as well as a perception that they are more committed to fighting battles within the party rather than start talking to the electorate.

    You can argue that Labour should vote against as a united party. But the priority should be unity, not their position on the deal itself. If the whole thing is a disaster then it will be easy to point to the previous 4 years of opposition to Brexit, as opposed to one vote on the final deal (after we've already left).

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,904
    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    Nicola manages it. If he can't oppose something he and about 55% of the country now think is crap thn what's he for? If he doesn't oppose it he supports it and that's back to the dark days of Corbyn
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020
    Roger said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    Nicola manages it. If he can't oppose something he and about 55% of the country now think is crap thn what's he for? If he doesn't oppose it he supports it and that's back to the dark days of Corbyn
    55% of the public may think that Brexit is cr*p. Although it will be interesting to see how the polls develop in the next few days. But the deal is not a vote on Brexit. That ship has sailed. It is a vote on the deal. And as i say, whether you like it or not, Starmer has made his position clear. He will vote for it and expect his party to follow. If some of them don't then they are being self-indulgent and will only harm Labour by continuing their inability to form a coherent united position.

    It's hardly the same for Sturgeon. She hasn't just been hammered in SNP heartlands for opposing Brexit.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,150
    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723
    Roger said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    Nicola manages it. If he can't oppose something he and about 55% of the country now think is crap thn what's he for? If he doesn't oppose it he supports it and that's back to the dark days of Corbyn
    The question is Deal or No Deal, not Leave or Remain.

    Now is not the time for virtue signalling on Brexit.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    edited December 2020
    I've discovered an excellent satirical site called the Daily Express. Today's story is that "bitter Macron could create own 'superstate' to fill Merkel void - 'terrifying' millions"

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1376653/eu-news-emmanuel-macron-france-superstate-angela-merkel-germany-brexit-latest
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723
    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,202

    I've discovered an excelled satirical site called the Daily Express. Today's story is that "bitter Macron could create own 'superstate' to fill Merkel void - 'terrifying' millions"

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1376653/eu-news-emmanuel-macron-france-superstate-angela-merkel-germany-brexit-latest

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1342567641538564097
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
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    I've discovered an excelled satirical site called the Daily Express. Today's story is that "bitter Macron could create own 'superstate' to fill Merkel void - 'terrifying' millions"

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1376653/eu-news-emmanuel-macron-france-superstate-angela-merkel-germany-brexit-latest

    Are there millions of Express readers available to terrify?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
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    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
  • Options
    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,736
    rkrkrk said:

    Roger said:

    Interesting reading Obama's book it's apparent that the presidency is a job which requires continuous decision making and a huge amount of work. Obama is clearly committed and I'm a big fan of his values and the logical way he dealt with complex problems......but what I find extraordinary is that Trump could have done it. Being a figurehead just wouldn't work. It's a mystery how he got away with it

    Just got it for christmas and made a start.

    Presidency is probably a lot of work if you want to achieve something... lot less otherwise I'd imagine.
    I got it for Christmas too!
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    I don't think it is clear that it will be "painfully obvious". Remember all the Treasury forecasts about the impact of Brexit? They almost all involved depressed levels of growth. Not no growth. And perceiving economic performance against an alternative scenario that didn't happen can never be 'obvious'. Brexit may not be the miracle cure that many had hoped. But nor will trying to reverse it be a magic solution anyway.

    If Brexit wasn't a solution to the problems in Labour heartlands, then the solution is to focus on things which might be. Not continue to focus on Europe. One thing that has often been pointed out as a benefit of Brexit. It will be impossible to blame the EU on our problems in future. Which will make it more important to focus on things that will actually make a difference.
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    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
  • Options
    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,150
    alex_ said:

    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
    I'm all for setting out a united vision of something. I just don't see this vote being the start of that.

    Sadly, I also don't see KS as being the leader to do that either.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
    They've got nowhere else to go...
  • Options
    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Supposedly the tests need to be administered at room temperature. Not in near freezing roadside conditions.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Supposedly the tests need to be administered at room temperature. Not in near freezing roadside conditions.
    As long as the errors err on the side of false negatives...
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,150
    mwadams said:

    alex_ said:

    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
    I'm all for setting out a united vision of something. I just don't see this vote being the start of that.

    Sadly, I also don't see KS as being the leader to do that either.
    That came out a bit negative! I mean that KS is rather managerialist rather than visionary. Forensic rather than inspiring.
  • Options
    https://twitter.com/DenisMacShane/status/1342471115311116288
    Is this right? Funny if it is - no longer being under the yoke of the ECHR was a major part of Brexit for the ERG
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147

    Bit of a get orff my land vibe

    image..
  • Options
    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
    They've got nowhere else to go...
    Get a grip on yourselves.

    Dear Keir Starmer

    it’s is NOT a binary choice about picking the lesser of two evils in the national interest.

    Only someone living at the backend of the universe the last six years could possibly view this as a binary vote. Where has you been? What gimmickry are you playing at? If parliament says no, Boris can speak to EU to roll on the transition.

    It’s not panto season with anyone saying “oh no he can’t” because, yes he can. It’s exactly the same as with May’s deal when she said it’s this or nothing, but ended up in that third option to re open the in un-reopenable.

    If parliament doesn’t pass it before the 1st it’s not inevitably no deal brexit. That is a lie. That is a lie by scoundrels. It can be more transition, would EU say no to more transition if parliament reject and government asked for hasty transition extension?

    There is no way any opposition party can whip this. There is not a single reason any MP of any party should feel there is a gun to their head if they don’t like this deal and don’t want to vote for it.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,798

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    Manston Airport is literally a concentration camp. No gas chambers obviously, but the kind other countries at war put in place.

    I doubt those drivers will ever go to Britain again. I can't blame them.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    gealbhan said:

    If parliament doesn’t pass it before the 1st it’s not inevitably no deal brexit. That is a lie. That is a lie by scoundrels. It can be more transition, would EU say no to more transition if parliament reject and government asked for hasty transition extension?

    Actually, yes I think they would. Now that the EU has agreed a deal they have no interest in being messed around by the UK parliament.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    mwadams said:

    alex_ said:

    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
    I'm all for setting out a united vision of something. I just don't see this vote being the start of that.

    Sadly, I also don't see KS as being the leader to do that either.
    I just think it is a first step towards looking forward rather than back. Saying how you will improve the deal in future (outside the EU), not continue to highlight its flaws compared to what we had.

    To oppose the deal based on views on Brexit or what was (completely unrealistically) promised by Brexit advocates is looking back not forward. And just creating new splits and problems for party management for no reason. And Starmer also needs to put to bed any lingering idea of a lobby within the party for advocating a return to the EU. In the short to medium term anyway. If that comes about organically in the future then so be it. But i doubt there's any serious appetite in the country for reliving that debate. Too many people misread polls about "with hindsight a mistake to leave". That should not be taken as a proxy for rejoining.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,941

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Like the railway network.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Those lorry parks seem so isolated from everywhere. Aren't there any local communities to be rallying round & helping them out? Or are we just not hearing about them?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,941
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
    Not to mention in Scotland. Which is Remainerland.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

  • Options
    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,941
    AnneJGP said:

    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Those lorry parks seem so isolated from everywhere. Aren't there any local communities to be rallying round & helping them out? Or are we just not hearing about them?
    That's a good point. But Manston is only just outside Ramsgate and Broadstairs - in fact I suspect that finding the right gate and driving around inside the airport perimeter would take more mileage than getting to the airport.


    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Manston+International+Airport/@51.340751,1.36377,6545m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x25806d69d8b574b1!8m2!3d51.3469491!4d1.3586653
  • Options
    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    gealbhan said:

    If parliament doesn’t pass it before the 1st it’s not inevitably no deal brexit. That is a lie. That is a lie by scoundrels. It can be more transition, would EU say no to more transition if parliament reject and government asked for hasty transition extension?

    Actually, yes I think they would. Now that the EU has agreed a deal they have no interest in being messed around by the UK parliament.
    Stop playing games. No one would be responsible for no deal chaos if there was another option.

    I would concede though. If the Europe nations rush to ratify this and Boris needs Starmer’s votes, it points to exactly who is shafting who in this deal, does it not?
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,941
    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

    Only a week or so before No Deal, for which the UK Gmt was supposed to be totally prepared (in the circs, it should have been before the hols, what with the hols and pox).
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
    They've got nowhere else to go...
    Haven't we heard that before?
  • Options

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    We were told there would be an immediate year long recession from a Leave vote. When it didn't happen, they said it would once we actually invoked Article 50. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we actually left the EU. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we finished the transition period. Now transition is here, they are going to try to blame Brexit for the COVID effects that started six months ago. It is completely shameless.
  • Options
    AnneJGP said:

    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Those lorry parks seem so isolated from everywhere. Aren't there any local communities to be rallying round & helping them out? Or are we just not hearing about them?
    Are you kidding? Manston Airport is in Thanet. UKIP Central. You do have to laugh about the people most up for getting rid of foreign types being chosen as the site for the big internment camp. Its not a surprise that they aren't helping out...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833
    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

    The lack of any food or support for them is not the responsibility of the French. It is our government that shunted them into what appears to be an empty airfield without support.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,357
    edited December 2020
    Midlander said:

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    We were told there would be an immediate year long recession from a Leave vote. When it didn't happen, they said it would once we actually invoked Article 50. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we actually left the EU. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we finished the transition period. Now transition is here, they are going to try to blame Brexit for the COVID effects that started six months ago. It is completely shameless.
    So? Those were political predictions from politicians trying to win a political argument. That is not equivalent to the professional opinions of people who do something specific for a living.

    There is a difference between George Osborne lying about an emergency budget and the logistics industry laying out in detail how the deal fucks them and by them they mean you.

    People will learn the difference. Quickly.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Back to Trump. That Cuomo piece is passionate, constructive and true. And intended for a wide range of viewers of course.

    Would Andrew Neil would have done even better?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,798
    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    If parliament doesn’t pass it before the 1st it’s not inevitably no deal brexit. That is a lie. That is a lie by scoundrels. It can be more transition, would EU say no to more transition if parliament reject and government asked for hasty transition extension?

    Actually, yes I think they would. Now that the EU has agreed a deal they have no interest in being messed around by the UK parliament.
    Stop playing games. No one would be responsible for no deal chaos if there was another option.

    I would concede though. If the Europe nations rush to ratify this and Boris needs Starmer’s votes, it points to exactly who is shafting who in this deal, does it not?
    The deal will pass because it gives what both the UK government and EU/ Member states want. The UK government gets no ECJ and no long term commitments; the EU/member states get long term leverage over the UK. Also people know a deal of any kind is better than no deal.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,895
    Evening all :)

    The devil is in the detail - it always is and 1,246 pages suggests a lot of detail.

    Boris Johnson's predictably bouncy optimism sounds even more hollow than usual - I appreciate a Deal represents the avoidance of chaos but to dress it up as the greatest event since the last one is absurd.

    What it has done is turn the page on a significant chapter in British history - I suspect our relationship with the EU will improve markedly now we are on the outside. The problem for us is and remains to be the failure of anyone in power to advance a coherent argument for the way forward for the United Kingdom.

    For that reason, the Deal, for all its not doubt many limitations, will go ahead simply because there's no stomach to countenance the opposite whether that may be a descent into the chaos of WTO or a return for more negotiation. It's done - for better or worse, we have to move on and start having a proper national conversation about the way forward.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited December 2020

    Midlander said:

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    We were told there would be an immediate year long recession from a Leave vote. When it didn't happen, they said it would once we actually invoked Article 50. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we actually left the EU. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we finished the transition period. Now transition is here, they are going to try to blame Brexit for the COVID effects that started six months ago. It is completely shameless.
    So? Those were political predictions from politicians trying to win a political argument. That is not equivalent to the professional opinions of people who do something specific for a living.

    There is a difference between George Osborne lying about an emergency budget and the logistics industry laying out in detail how the deal fucks them and by them they mean you.

    People will learn the difference. Quickly.
    None of this has any relevance to whether Labour MPs should choose to sustain internal splits within the Labour Party over an issue which will make no actual difference to the vote at hand. I repeat, if the predicted disaster ensues, nobody is going to say it's all Labour's fault for voting for it as an alternative to no deal. Whatever fantasy world is being created about further transition extensions that even if they were to somehow happen, would serve no purpose other than to delay no deal until we were a bit more ready for it.

    Disagree with Starmer's stance if you must. But once he's made his stance clear, his MPs (particularly his front bench) should back it.
  • Options
    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

    We've got a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks. That is 100% the result of COVID. However, once we clear this backlog we get the next backlog caused by the imposition of a hard border as part of our Brexit deal. Instead of trucks rolling off the boat / train and onto the motorway they have to stop and have their paperwork checked. Which creates a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,072
    Hi all, I just found a good link with all the *confirmed* vaccine order from the UK:

    AstraZeneca / Oxford - 100m
    Novavax - 60m
    Sanofi / GSK - 60m
    Valneva - 60m (with an option for 130m more)
    Pfizer/BioNTech - 40m
    Johnson & Johnson - 30m
    Moderna - 7

    Of these, AstraZeneca will hopefully be approved in the next few weeks. Novavax and J&J should get results in January (and if they're positive) could be approved by the end of the first quarter.

    The Sanofi vaccine is being pushed back to (at earliest) the second half of 2021, so we shouldn't expect too much from that. Valneva is very early stage (it's in Phase 1 / 2 at the moment, but because it uses actual inactivated CV19 as its material, it has a high likelihood of success.)

    If Novavax and J&J and AZN are all approved in Q1, then the pace of vaccinations should be pretty quick by the middle of next year.

    Fingers crossed.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723
    This Christmas Day bombing in Nashville - Presbyterian extremists?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    What has actually happened though? A whole year of massive disruption linked to Covid 19 has seen true hardship for millions and thunderous criticism of the government which has left them level pegging in the opinion polls. Are you really convinced that the loss of an educational project and some regional grants all of which are being replaced by government funds will do the trick. I mean you say it is reality now - if so why on earth is Labour voting for it and why are the seething hordes not marching on London right now? I mean I agree the deal is imperfect and I'd have preferred to stay in the EU but you know that many remainers always were half hearted about it. The only place in Europe wth regular civli disobediance over the past few months is Paris - did they all take a wrong turning before reaching London? Starmer wants to move on. He is right.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

    We've got a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks. That is 100% the result of COVID. However, once we clear this backlog we get the next backlog caused by the imposition of a hard border as part of our Brexit deal. Instead of trucks rolling off the boat / train and onto the motorway they have to stop and have their paperwork checked. Which creates a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks.
    I thought there was a trusted trader scheme, where it would mainly be spot checks?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,833

    AnneJGP said:

    alex_ said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    To be fair, horrific, chaotic and poorly thought out in planning it appears to be, when the short term solution to 'escape' depends on negative tests so that France will let them in, it's not surprising that they're being denied access to the outside world. The Govt should be meeting the needs of food/sanitation etc. Not third party samaritans.
    Those lorry parks seem so isolated from everywhere. Aren't there any local communities to be rallying round & helping them out? Or are we just not hearing about them?
    Are you kidding? Manston Airport is in Thanet. UKIP Central. You do have to laugh about the people most up for getting rid of foreign types being chosen as the site for the big internment camp. Its not a surprise that they aren't helping out...
    They are arranging resettlement in the East...
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,072

    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1342563473604096000
    Perhaps the plan is to outsource facilities for truck drivers to foreign governments?

    Just a new arm to the hostile environment. Surely being beastly to the East Europeans so that they go home is the point of Brexit?
    This is pathetic - this was caused by France as a result of new Covid strain

    We've got a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks. That is 100% the result of COVID. However, once we clear this backlog we get the next backlog caused by the imposition of a hard border as part of our Brexit deal. Instead of trucks rolling off the boat / train and onto the motorway they have to stop and have their paperwork checked. Which creates a huge backlog because of disruption of the free flow of trucks.
    It will be largely automated sooner than you think.

    In the US, they have special truck lanes on the Canadian border where (assuming you've done your paperwork properly in advance) you don't even have to slowdown.

    Now, doesn't mean it won't be more hassle than now. But let's not pretend it'll be disastrous.
  • Options
    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    alex_ said:

    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
    Sorry Alex.

    The Government have an EIGHTY SEAT majority, and it’s government alone who have negotiated it, created the deal. If the only way they can get votes for it is they have run the clock down, that goes completely against the better democracy they claim brexit is all about. It goes against all democracy.

    If you tolerate having to vote for this because the clock has run down, burning down the parliament will be next.

    To believe in democracy you have to believe everyone in parliament can vote with their conscience on what they think of the deal, for the country and their constituents, without the weapon of no deal held to their heads.

    If then it passes, it passes. That’s democracy saying yes. And, if governments deal can’t pass despite an eighty seat majority over all other parties, democracy is saying no.

    If you are selling anything else, any snake oil politics, no ones buying.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    This Christmas Day bombing in Nashville - Presbyterian extremists?

    It's all a bit strange.

    INSURRECTION ACT NOW!!!
  • Options
    alex_ said:

    Midlander said:

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    We were told there would be an immediate year long recession from a Leave vote. When it didn't happen, they said it would once we actually invoked Article 50. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we actually left the EU. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we finished the transition period. Now transition is here, they are going to try to blame Brexit for the COVID effects that started six months ago. It is completely shameless.
    So? Those were political predictions from politicians trying to win a political argument. That is not equivalent to the professional opinions of people who do something specific for a living.

    There is a difference between George Osborne lying about an emergency budget and the logistics industry laying out in detail how the deal fucks them and by them they mean you.

    People will learn the difference. Quickly.
    None of this has any relevance to whether Labour MPs should choose to sustain internal splits within the Labour Party over an issue which will make no actual difference to the vote at hand. I repeat, if the predicted disaster ensues, nobody is going to say it's all Labour's fault for voting for it as an alternative to no deal. Whatever fantasy world is being created about further transition extensions that even if they were to somehow happen, would serve no purpose other than to delay no deal until we were a bit more ready for it.

    Disagree with Starmer's stance if you must. But once he's made his stance clear, his MPs (particularly his front bench) should back it.
    I have no skin in the game any more - my 25 years of Labour membership is in the past. But from my experience of knocking on doors and running for election voters have this nasty habit of remembering the very worst things you said or did in the past. Yes its the Tory Brexit yes it will be blamed on them. But the risk for Labour is "and you did nothing to stop it" if they vote for it.

    Its Stamer's call not mine. Its a risk either way.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    FF43 said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    Manston Airport is literally a concentration camp. No gas chambers obviously, but the kind other countries at war put in place.

    I doubt those drivers will ever go to Britain again. I can't blame them.
    Lol. The reports on the news showed most were very relaxed and understanding about the situation. The drivers will be back - it 's their living.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    rcs1000 said:

    Hi all, I just found a good link with all the *confirmed* vaccine order from the UK:

    AstraZeneca / Oxford - 100m
    Novavax - 60m
    Sanofi / GSK - 60m
    Valneva - 60m (with an option for 130m more)
    Pfizer/BioNTech - 40m
    Johnson & Johnson - 30m
    Moderna - 7

    Of these, AstraZeneca will hopefully be approved in the next few weeks. Novavax and J&J should get results in January (and if they're positive) could be approved by the end of the first quarter.

    The Sanofi vaccine is being pushed back to (at earliest) the second half of 2021, so we shouldn't expect too much from that. Valneva is very early stage (it's in Phase 1 / 2 at the moment, but because it uses actual inactivated CV19 as its material, it has a high likelihood of success.)

    If Novavax and J&J and AZN are all approved in Q1, then the pace of vaccinations should be pretty quick by the middle of next year.

    Fingers crossed.

    I've just been offered the opportunity by my practice to NOT have the jab.
    HAH. Small chance of that.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    felix said:

    FF43 said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    Manston Airport is literally a concentration camp. No gas chambers obviously, but the kind other countries at war put in place.

    I doubt those drivers will ever go to Britain again. I can't blame them.
    Lol. The reports on the news showed most were very relaxed and understanding about the situation. The drivers will be back - it 's their living.
    Yes, that was quite some hyperbole.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,072
    Midlander said:

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    Yes you do. And in these seats people have decided that Labour had failed them over a long period and were sold on Brexit as the solution.

    The problem is that Brexit isn't the solution. And by 2024 that will be painfully obvious. Selling this as the Tory Brexit disaster will be easier if they are not seen as complicit in bringing it in.
    Brexit happened 11 months ago.
    It did. And for 11 months inertia carried us along with no changes. Now we see the changes. Now we see the exciting new future that will restore the life chances of people in all those ex-Labour seats. They will be back in control of their lives, earning more, doing more, with better life prospects for their children.

    Except that they won't. One quick horror for swathes of the population will be the ending of EU subsidies and investments. For all of the "what did the EU ever do for us" comments the truth is quite a lot in the areas that voted leave. That cash is gone, and the Tories aren't replacing it...
    Not something that opposition to the deal will make the slightest difference to. The vote on the deal isn't a vote to continue EU subsidies. It is possible to vote for the deal whilst firmly pointing out all its flaws in what it doesn't deliver. And advocate changes in future. The idea that if everything goes badly then the Conservatives will be credibly be able to deflect future Labour criticism because they saw no deal as even worse is i think nonsense.

    The Conservatives pretty much mirrored Labour spending plans throughout the 2000s. That didn't prevent them making political hay post the financial crisis, however much Labour tried.
    I fear you are whistling in the wind - those who don't accept Brexit seem to think that endless ramping up of project fear will eventually see the hordes of undesirables littering the towns of northern England rushing back gratefully to the cradle of civilisation -Brussels - begging to be let back on board the great USE project to strains of 'Ode to Joy'. Note that the economic calamity which awaits is always just a little way down the road...until it gets postponed for the umpteenth time. Meanwhile everyone else shrugs and moves on. Starmer has made the right call but like so many Labour leaders before him will probably be punished by the ultras for his political nous.
    "the endless ramping up of project fear" is the past. Now we have reality. Difficult to dismiss something bad as "project fear" when its just happened to you.
    We were told there would be an immediate year long recession from a Leave vote. When it didn't happen, they said it would once we actually invoked Article 50. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we actually left the EU. When that didn't happen, they said it would when we finished the transition period. Now transition is here, they are going to try to blame Brexit for the COVID effects that started six months ago. It is completely shameless.
    We also weren't told that there would be a pandemic this year.

    The year after Brexit, world economic growth sped up (Somewhat ironically, a consequence of the Eurozone returning to reasonable levels of growth).

    We benefited.

    Economists make predictions. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong.

    It's like weathermen: they're often wrong, but that doesn't make their forecasts useless.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    alex_ said:

    This Christmas Day bombing in Nashville - Presbyterian extremists?

    It's all a bit strange.

    INSURRECTION ACT NOW!!!
    Whoever did it went to a lot of trouble to make sure the place was evacuated first.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    gealbhan said:

    alex_ said:

    mwadams said:

    Personally, I think Labour should allow a free vote on it. The less-ERG-like Labour Brexiteers and assorted pragmatists can vote for the deal, thus nullifying any faint concern that the ERG can cause a bit more market-manipulating (perish the thought) chaos, while removing Boris's ability to say "well you voted for it" when problems arise later, if the shad cab abstain.

    Labour have stood on the sidelines for 4 years swinging this way and that effectively letting different MPs play to different constituencies. Starmer correctly recognises that if the electorate are to take them seriously again people need to know what they stand for. Which means the leadership staking out clear positions, and the party following. Not forever having a conversation with itself or even worse trying to take 3 different positions on everything. Agree the deal doesn't meet the promises and expectations and the time of the referendum. Accept the logic nevertheless that the deal is better than no deal. And start to move forward setting out a united vision and direction for the future. It's time to move on.
    Sorry Alex.

    The Government have an EIGHTY SEAT majority, and it’s government alone who have negotiated it, created the deal. If the only way they can get votes for it is they have run the clock down, that goes completely against the better democracy they claim brexit is all about. It goes against all democracy.

    If you tolerate having to vote for this because the clock has run down, burning down the parliament will be next.

    To believe in democracy you have to believe everyone in parliament can vote with their conscience on what they think of the deal, for the country and their constituents, without the weapon of no deal held to their heads.

    If then it passes, it passes. That’s democracy saying yes. And, if governments deal can’t pass despite an eighty seat majority over all other parties, democracy is saying no.

    If you are selling anything else, any snake oil politics, no ones buying.
    No, my argument is nothing to do with Labour needing to support the deal to ensure it passes. It will pass regardless, there is no doubt of that. The arguments are different to those over the Withdrawal Agreement, when Labour was confronted with an active choice to assist its passage or cause maximum trouble for a weak Government and exploiting the discontent on Tory backbenches (a choice IMO they got horribly wrong).

    My argument is simply about what Labour needs to do to move on. Accept the world as it is and look forward, not the world as some might like it to be and look back.
  • Options
    felix said:

    What has actually happened though? A whole year of massive disruption linked to Covid 19 has seen true hardship for millions and thunderous criticism of the government which has left them level pegging in the opinion polls. Are you really convinced that the loss of an educational project and some regional grants all of which are being replaced by government funds will do the trick. I mean you say it is reality now - if so why on earth is Labour voting for it and why are the seething hordes not marching on London right now? I mean I agree the deal is imperfect and I'd have preferred to stay in the EU but you know that many remainers always were half hearted about it. The only place in Europe wth regular civli disobediance over the past few months is Paris - did they all take a wrong turning before reaching London? Starmer wants to move on. He is right.

    Nobody cares about Erasmus as nobody uses it. The regional funds absolutely will not be replaced neither will the farming subsidies. The Tories have a long and proud track record of not spending money on such things that aren't about to suddenly be overturned in some fit of concern for the lower orders. People won't notice straight away - but the people in run down areas which have at least benefited from EU investment into local projects won't even be getting that.

    If we are very lucky the good people at places like Toyota and Nissan will reconfigure their supply chain so that their UK factories uniquely don't operate to their just in time model and will remain open.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,847
    Toms said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hi all, I just found a good link with all the *confirmed* vaccine order from the UK:

    AstraZeneca / Oxford - 100m
    Novavax - 60m
    Sanofi / GSK - 60m
    Valneva - 60m (with an option for 130m more)
    Pfizer/BioNTech - 40m
    Johnson & Johnson - 30m
    Moderna - 7

    Of these, AstraZeneca will hopefully be approved in the next few weeks. Novavax and J&J should get results in January (and if they're positive) could be approved by the end of the first quarter.

    The Sanofi vaccine is being pushed back to (at earliest) the second half of 2021, so we shouldn't expect too much from that. Valneva is very early stage (it's in Phase 1 / 2 at the moment, but because it uses actual inactivated CV19 as its material, it has a high likelihood of success.)

    If Novavax and J&J and AZN are all approved in Q1, then the pace of vaccinations should be pretty quick by the middle of next year.

    Fingers crossed.

    I've just been offered the opportunity by my practice to NOT have the jab.
    HAH. Small chance of that.
    What? You mean they've contacted you to ask you if you'd prefer *not* to have it??
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,723
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    alex_ said:

    I think some of these “Labour frontbenchers” need to get over themselves. Starmer is right that they can’t just continue with the policy of refusing to take a stand on major national issues of the day. And nobody is going to suggest that any future criticism of a future poor performing economy will be invalid because of a failure to oppose the deal, when the only realistic alternative was far worse.

    This is not 2017-19 when it was possible to at least make an argument that supporting the Govt was tantamount to abandoning their supporters who still held out hope of avoiding Brexit altogether. Harping back to Brexiteers “promises” that haven’t been realised cut no ice, when everyone knows they were phoney.

    The treaty will pass as the government has a majority of 80. Opposition parties who can see what it is should vote against. It isn't deal or no deal. Its the deal or the deal - it will pass.
    It's the trolley problem. The Lib Dems are choosing to stand aside while Labour are choosing to switch the points.

    SR BA PPE (Open)
    Nah, its going to pass anyway. No one will remember how anyone other than the Tories voted, so no point in a whip.
    We need to win back a pile of Leave seats in 2024. It matters.
    The key is not to lose Remain seats at the same time...
    They've got nowhere else to go...
    Haven't we heard that before?
    That's why I chose those words. But in seriousness, while a few may vote for other parties of the centre left and left I don't see retention of the Guardianista vote to be too much of a problem. We are still led by a north London lawyer, after all. We need to be bigging up the northern and midland voices on the front bench, and saying the things that our lost voters are interested in.

    Once we are in government the gender neutral bathrooms will take care of themselves. Until then, we should shut up about stuff that makes us look out of touch with the average person in the street. And I include Israel - Palestine on that list.
  • Options
    felix said:

    FF43 said:

    https://twitter.com/Trevor_GBDE/status/1342184027499995138

    Perhaps once we get through Christmas the government might want to put better arrangements in for the trucks they are going to park at Manston / Ashford / the M20

    Manston Airport is literally a concentration camp. No gas chambers obviously, but the kind other countries at war put in place.

    I doubt those drivers will ever go to Britain again. I can't blame them.
    Lol. The reports on the news showed most were very relaxed and understanding about the situation. The drivers will be back - it 's their living.
    You do understand that most of them are not only not being paid right now but have lost the opportunity to be working and therefore paid?

    Per kilometre. They don't earn when sat in queues. Yes, this queue is days longer than they will be next year. But they will still be lengthy and pointless.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    felix said:

    What has actually happened though? A whole year of massive disruption linked to Covid 19 has seen true hardship for millions and thunderous criticism of the government which has left them level pegging in the opinion polls. Are you really convinced that the loss of an educational project and some regional grants all of which are being replaced by government funds will do the trick. I mean you say it is reality now - if so why on earth is Labour voting for it and why are the seething hordes not marching on London right now? I mean I agree the deal is imperfect and I'd have preferred to stay in the EU but you know that many remainers always were half hearted about it. The only place in Europe wth regular civli disobediance over the past few months is Paris - did they all take a wrong turning before reaching London? Starmer wants to move on. He is right.

    Nobody cares about Erasmus as nobody uses it. The regional funds absolutely will not be replaced neither will the farming subsidies. The Tories have a long and proud track record of not spending money on such things that aren't about to suddenly be overturned in some fit of concern for the lower orders. People won't notice straight away - but the people in run down areas which have at least benefited from EU investment into local projects won't even be getting that.

    If we are very lucky the good people at places like Toyota and Nissan will reconfigure their supply chain so that their UK factories uniquely don't operate to their just in time model and will remain open.
    Or they'll maintain a just in time model that is reliant on insourced UK supply chains possibly?
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2020

    Toms said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hi all, I just found a good link with all the *confirmed* vaccine order from the UK:

    AstraZeneca / Oxford - 100m
    Novavax - 60m
    Sanofi / GSK - 60m
    Valneva - 60m (with an option for 130m more)
    Pfizer/BioNTech - 40m
    Johnson & Johnson - 30m
    Moderna - 7

    Of these, AstraZeneca will hopefully be approved in the next few weeks. Novavax and J&J should get results in January (and if they're positive) could be approved by the end of the first quarter.

    The Sanofi vaccine is being pushed back to (at earliest) the second half of 2021, so we shouldn't expect too much from that. Valneva is very early stage (it's in Phase 1 / 2 at the moment, but because it uses actual inactivated CV19 as its material, it has a high likelihood of success.)

    If Novavax and J&J and AZN are all approved in Q1, then the pace of vaccinations should be pretty quick by the middle of next year.

    Fingers crossed.

    I've just been offered the opportunity by my practice to NOT have the jab.
    HAH. Small chance of that.
    What? You mean they've contacted you to ask you if you'd prefer *not* to have it??
    Yep. That makes sense. It was an automated text .They're clearly trying to avoid time waste. I expect I'll get an invite pretty soon. My Bedford practice is really damned efficient. I expect they'll simply tell me when to turn up.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Toms said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Hi all, I just found a good link with all the *confirmed* vaccine order from the UK:

    AstraZeneca / Oxford - 100m
    Novavax - 60m
    Sanofi / GSK - 60m
    Valneva - 60m (with an option for 130m more)
    Pfizer/BioNTech - 40m
    Johnson & Johnson - 30m
    Moderna - 7

    Of these, AstraZeneca will hopefully be approved in the next few weeks. Novavax and J&J should get results in January (and if they're positive) could be approved by the end of the first quarter.

    The Sanofi vaccine is being pushed back to (at earliest) the second half of 2021, so we shouldn't expect too much from that. Valneva is very early stage (it's in Phase 1 / 2 at the moment, but because it uses actual inactivated CV19 as its material, it has a high likelihood of success.)

    If Novavax and J&J and AZN are all approved in Q1, then the pace of vaccinations should be pretty quick by the middle of next year.

    Fingers crossed.

    I've just been offered the opportunity by my practice to NOT have the jab.
    HAH. Small chance of that.
    What? You mean they've contacted you to ask you if you'd prefer *not* to have it??
    Sounds to me like he's just been precontacted to allow all the onerous consent forms to be largely completed in advance.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,798
    edited December 2020
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    The devil is in the detail - it always is and 1,246 pages suggests a lot of detail.

    Boris Johnson's predictably bouncy optimism sounds even more hollow than usual - I appreciate a Deal represents the avoidance of chaos but to dress it up as the greatest event since the last one is absurd.

    What it has done is turn the page on a significant chapter in British history - I suspect our relationship with the EU will improve markedly now we are on the outside. The problem for us is and remains to be the failure of anyone in power to advance a coherent argument for the way forward for the United Kingdom.

    For that reason, the Deal, for all its not doubt many limitations, will go ahead simply because there's no stomach to countenance the opposite whether that may be a descent into the chaos of WTO or a return for more negotiation. It's done - for better or worse, we have to move on and start having a proper national conversation about the way forward.

    I am nearly certain, the UK will find life very uncomfortable outside the EU. The UK is too big to be told what to do and in any case the whole point of Brexit was to take control. On the other hand the EU is the only show in town in Europe. The UK can't just ignore the EU and only deal with Australia, although it will try to sometimes. It will at different times also try to co-opt the EU and to undermine it. It will probably fail at all three. Meanwhile the EU will either ignore the UK or lean heavily on the UK to agree to what it wants. It doesn't promise to be a particularly happy relationship.
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