With just eight days to go before the end of the Brexit transition the majority of those polled say

System

With just eight days to go before the end of the Brexit transition the majority of those polled say they’d support an extension – politicalbetting.com

My guess on this one is that there will be some conclusion before the year end with Johnson preferring to resolve this according to the original timetable. After all his winning slogan at GE2019 was “Get Brexit Done” – though whether he is happy with a no deal I am not convinced.

Read the full story here

rottenborough

1st. Like No Deal.

Big_G_NorthWales

I really hope the 68% becomes 100% and a deal

adamandcat

Is Boris someone who will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity?

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1341428171229544448

rottenborough

Today's No Shit Sherlock award goes to...

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1341428172894683136

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1341428154850828293

Oh FFS. Do the frigging deal!!! We are now arguing about a few fish for christ's sake.

CorrectHorseBattery

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Battery, some of us at the time pointed out that pro-EU MPs voting the same way as hardline sceptics were achieving the same result with the added stupidity of being ideologically opposed to the consequences of their voting behaviour...

Hi, please call me Horse

CorrectHorseBattery

Do we think Johnson will make it clear it's No Deal prior to year end or do they just go on talking?

Richard_Nabavi

Still, it's not all bad. At least there's something to look forward to in the New Year:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/22/sex-at-christmas-tends-to-be-off-menu-until-fireworks-at-new-year-study

CorrectHorseBattery

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1341430405245906947

21% of Tories oppose

Gallowgate

FPT

Pulpstar said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

So EU is willing to negotiate post New Year, this will never end

We'll have the reality of no deal on our hands at that point (Which impacts us more than them), and all the time pressure on the EU side is off - they can take as long as they want. Our negotiating position right now is as strong as it'll ever be.
Folding to the EU's 25% would be the correct move here.

Many on here seem to have the opposite view. That once "no deal" has happened the pressure is off the UK too, but now the UK has "all the fish". 🤷‍♂️

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

MarqueeMark

Damn you, new thread!

FPT:

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

rkrkrk

Always good to see a poll result that is surprising. I would have expected people to be rather keen to get it all over with. Looks like I was completely wrong.

Gallowgate

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Can anyone put these numbers into perspective? For example, how many lorries were in Kent during the last pre-COVID border traffic jams?

Mexicanpete

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1341428154850828293

Oh FFS. Do the frigging deal!!! We are now arguing about a few fish for christ's sake.

Johnson is conflicted. Which is the more uncomfortable for him? Gridlock on the M2 and M20, empty shelves and medication shortages, or the wrath of Jacob Rees Mogg and Farage.

Sod the empty shelves!

Leon

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1341430405245906947

21% of Tories oppose

This polling does not surprise. The New Variant Megacovid has successfully scared the shit out of most people I encounter

Big_G_NorthWales

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Scott_xP

We know when BoZo says "we will prosper mightily" he is referring to his chums, right?

Philip_Thompson

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

Brom

Gallowgate said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Can anyone put these numbers into perspective? For example, how many lorries were in Kent during the last pre-COVID border traffic jams?

At it's peak Operation Stack has had 6,000 lorries so still some way to go

Brom

Odds on a trade deal this year are as short as 4/11. I was really hoping they'd drift out to 6/4 or bigger but they never got much beyond evens. Sadly doesn't look like they will return to a price I'm happy to pile in on given they seem so close to a deal.

RochdalePioneers

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Spoke to a major foodservice contact an hour ago. Most trucks are being held at depots as futile sending vehicles to sit in a queue. His take - "we may as well get used to this"

MarqueeMark

Leon said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1341430405245906947

21% of Tories oppose

This polling does not surprise. The New Variant Megacovid has successfully scared the shit out of most people I encounter

And out of London?

Leon

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Spoke to a major foodservice contact an hour ago. Most trucks are being held at depots as futile sending vehicles to sit in a queue. His take - "we may as well get used to this"

Absurd. Even under No Deal this would not be the norm. It is in no one’s interest. Certainly not EU exporters, hauliers, truck drivers, travellers.

OnlyLivingBoy

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/Quicktake/status/1341435343829164036

kinabalu

Brom said:

Odds on a trade deal this year are as short as 4/11. I was really hoping they'd drift out to 6/4 or bigger but they never got much beyond evens. Sadly doesn't look like they will return to a price I'm happy to pile in on given they seem so close to a deal.

And you lose the bet if a deal is teed up but not signed.

Philip_Thompson

RochdalePioneers said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Spoke to a major foodservice contact an hour ago. Most trucks are being held at depots as futile sending vehicles to sit in a queue. His take - "we may as well get used to this"

It is what I said to you last week. People will adjust and get used to any new reality. 🤷🏻‍♂️

MarqueeMark

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

kinabalu

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1341428171229544448

Shades of the Manchester nonsense. Who's the Andy Burnham?

Big_G_NorthWales

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/Quicktake/status/1341435343829164036

Under WTO it is illegal to interrupt trade, this is under covid which is a health issue

Of course there would be delays initially but to be honest with the present covid travel restrictions going on for some months I doubt it will be the main concern or issue

Not that I want no deal, I want a deal, any deal

TrèsDifficile

Lol, just had a fake Amazon email sent to me.

From: Costumer Services

Unless they think I'm into fancy dress?!

Philip_Thompson

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

kinabalu

Right, I'm OFF this thread. Get a life, me.

Deal is certain. Not a single day of "WTO" will there be. No Deal is not a Real World option for the UK.

Please trust me. I wouldn't keep saying it if I didn't know.

TimT

New study on mask-wearing and COVID. Synopsis, masks work very well, but not perfectly, so we need both mask-wearing and social distancing:

https://scitechdaily.com/new-testing-shows-masks-not-enough-to-stop-covid-19s-spread-without-social-distancing/

OnlyLivingBoy

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

Floater

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1341430405245906947

21% of Tories oppose

As opposed to 22% overall and 18% Labour.......

Big_G_NorthWales

kinabalu said:

Right, I'm OFF this thread. Get a life, me.

Deal is certain. Not a single day of "WTO" will there be. No Deal is not a real world option for the UK.

Trust me. I wouldn't keep saying it if I didn't know.

I am trusting you, you have been consistent

Andy_JS

O/T

The most interesting thing on TV at the moment is The Professionals on ITV4.

Leon

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

FeersumEnjineeya

TrèsDifficile said:

Lol, just had a fake Amazon email sent to me.

From: Costumer Services

Unless they think I'm into fancy dress?!

I've heard that daft spelling mistakes like this are deliberate. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that it's a scam, but those aren't the people who the scammers are interested in. The mistakes act as an initial filter, so they only get replies from people who are good targets for scamming.

gealbhan

nico679 said:

Macron has proved his point and now needs to see sense regarding re-opening the French border to UK accompanied freight . Clearly Covid and politics have collided here.

Johnson’s no deal delusion though is looking decidedly ropey. He needs to stop the “ prosper mightily “ drivel because going for no deal now on the back of the chaotic scenes at Dover is going to look unhinged .

What with the mutant covid and the threat of a no deal this could be Johnson’s ERM moment .

The botched Christmas plans just add to the sense that the government is clueless and out of control .

The testing the U.K. government has fobbed off on their people is only 50% accurate, EU has every right to say nope, not using that rubbish one to solve your traffic jam problem.

Leon

FeersumEnjineeya said:

TrèsDifficile said:

Lol, just had a fake Amazon email sent to me.

From: Costumer Services

Unless they think I'm into fancy dress?!

I've heard that daft spelling mistakes like this are deliberate. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that it's a scam, but those aren't the people who the scammers are interested in. The mistakes act as an initial filter, so they only get replies from people who are good targets for scamming.

That’s genuinely fascinating. And horribly clever. This is why I come to PB from a hard day of flint-knapping

gealbhan

Floater said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1341430405245906947

21% of Tories oppose

As opposed to 22% overall and 18% Labour.......

The headline isn’t the one batters pulled out. Con voters now more supportive of all Britons?

OnlyLivingBoy

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

You're welcome. Personally I think we'd be somewhere around about here (looking at a bare-bones FTA, still arguing about fish with something more or less agreed to manage divergence from EU rules over time) even if May's deal had gone through. If we end up with no deal I would agree that is something that May would probably not have countenanced, but I don't think Johnson will countenance it either.

Big_G_NorthWales

gealbhan said:

nico679 said:

Macron has proved his point and now needs to see sense regarding re-opening the French border to UK accompanied freight . Clearly Covid and politics have collided here.

Johnson’s no deal delusion though is looking decidedly ropey. He needs to stop the “ prosper mightily “ drivel because going for no deal now on the back of the chaotic scenes at Dover is going to look unhinged .

What with the mutant covid and the threat of a no deal this could be Johnson’s ERM moment .

The botched Christmas plans just add to the sense that the government is clueless and out of control .

The testing the U.K. government has fobbed off on their people is only 50% accurate, EU has every right to say nope, not using that rubbish one to solve your traffic jam problem.

In truth it is probably more of an EU one with EU drivers stranded in Dover and Irish EU exports through Holyhead to the continent trapped as well

TrèsDifficile

FeersumEnjineeya said:

TrèsDifficile said:

Lol, just had a fake Amazon email sent to me.

From: Costumer Services

Unless they think I'm into fancy dress?!

I've heard that daft spelling mistakes like this are deliberate. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that it's a scam, but those aren't the people who the scammers are interested in. The mistakes act as an initial filter, so they only get replies from people who are good targets for scamming.

That would explain why they always seem to have those mistakes.

I like typos/spelling mistakes that then spell something else if it's silly enough to make me laugh. Like the fairly common "Bare with me"; I always want to, and occasionally do, reply, "You think we should both get naked?!"

OnlyLivingBoy

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

gealbhan

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Good question. If it does it kills how much of the fishing export market? If it doesn’t why not, poor little slithering, creepy crawling little creatures, what about their rights and mental well being? There’s things in aquarium more intelligent than what grazes in fields.

TrèsDifficile

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Boy, I was and remain surprised Labour didn't try backing May's deal in return for a referendum.

Pressure by the third reading would've been significant.

On the other hand, Corbyn...

rottenborough

Andy_JS said:

O/T

The most interesting thing on TV at the moment is The Professionals on ITV4.

Is it a documentary about the current Cabinet?

Richard_Nabavi

https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1341441647108902919

Leon

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

Trouble is, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom made this solemn vow to the British people.

It’s just a minute and a half long. But it makes things pretty clear

https://youtu.be/z7qZhlrbcB8

Casino_Royale

Gallowgate said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/1341427782925094913

Can anyone put these numbers into perspective? For example, how many lorries were in Kent during the last pre-COVID border traffic jams?

In Operation Stack in 2015 there were 3,600 stacked - due to strikes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33688822

Casino_Royale

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

ydoethur

gealbhan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Good question. If it does it kills how much of the fishing export market? If it doesn’t why not, poor little slithering, creepy crawling little creatures, what about their rights and mental well being? There’s things in aquarium more intelligent than what grazes in fields.

Or indeed, sits on benches in Parliament.

HYUFD

Given the choice of a trade deal agreed by January as the alternative however I expect most voters would then oppose an extension of the transition

Casino_Royale

kinabalu said:

Right, I'm OFF this thread. Get a life, me.

Deal is certain. Not a single day of "WTO" will there be. No Deal is not a Real World option for the UK.

Please trust me. I wouldn't keep saying it if I didn't know.

Right now, I think the UK and EU are pulling out all the stops for a Deal.

France is throwing its weight around. Not just on this, but on lorries too.

Which is odd, given over 2/3rds of them stuck in Kent are Europeans - who want to get home for Christmas and definitely have votes in EU countries too.

OnlyLivingBoy

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

Trouble is, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom made this solemn vow to the British people.

It’s just a minute and a half long. But it makes things pretty clear

https://youtu.be/z7qZhlrbcB8

He also said he wouldn't resign if he lost it.

Big_G_NorthWales

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

Certainly should be agreed for any indy2

OnlyLivingBoy

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

Casino_Royale

I think the idea of an EEA brexit or soft Brexit was bullshit.

We're the UK, not Norway or Iceland. Our economy is totally different, much larger, bigger and more global, and so is the realpolitik on top too with defence, security and data.

Our Deal was always going to be bespoke.

williamglenn

HYUFD said:

Given the choice of a trade deal agreed by January as the alternative however I expect most voters would then oppose an extension of the transition

Even if that trade deal was on worse terms than it would have been if it were concluded without going through a period of no deal?

Casino_Royale

Hard to avoid the conclusion Macron isn't using the lorry blockage as extra leverage to get what he wants in the final Brexit deal.

He's holding out.

Big_G_NorthWales

gealbhan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Good question. If it does it kills how much of the fishing export market? If it doesn’t why not, poor little slithering, creepy crawling little creatures, what about their rights and mental well being? There’s things in aquarium more intelligent than what grazes in fields.

Most fish is frozen but shellfish is exported live

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

Hard to avoid the conclusion Macron isn't using the lorry blockage as extra leverage to get what he wants in the final Brexit deal.

He's holding out.

And if he causes No Deal? That is going to make for a happy house in the EU....

TrèsDifficile

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

HYUFD

The poll does suggest about 33% of the population back No Deal if no trade deal can be reached rather than extension of the transition period, if so that suggests the current neck and neck polls could shift to a clear Labour lead if we leave the single market and customs union in January on WTO terms

FeersumEnjineeya

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

OnlyLivingBoy

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

Can always rely on Brexiteers to imagine something worse to inflict on us.

CorrectHorseBattery

I think there's a reasonable chance the Tory coalition splits as soon as Brexit is perceived to be finished, I might be wrong

FF43

Brom said:

I'm all for hearing from Verhofstadt, a happy reminder Brits made the correct choice.

Verhofstadt is eccentrically Anglophile. Lonely Brits don't have many friends in Europe.

Just sayin'

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

A dark and dangerous nightbus at that.

Floater

Casino_Royale said:

Hard to avoid the conclusion Macron isn't using the lorry blockage as extra leverage to get what he wants in the final Brexit deal.

He's holding out.

Of course he is

Big_G_NorthWales

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

FeersumEnjineeya

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

Your point?

Casino_Royale

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

I've got a general rule (nuffence) that anyone who uses the phrase "gaslighting" isn't trying to be clever but actually hasn't got an argument.

TrèsDifficile

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

Can always rely on Brexiteers to imagine something worse to inflict on us.

If we'd negotiated a deal that was going to be voted on, against remaining in the EU, the EU would have negotiated in order for remaining to win the vote.

Can you really not understand that?

Leon

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

Your point?

It was the largest democratic mandate in the history of the UK. Literally the biggest vote for anything, ever.

williamglenn

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

Can always rely on Brexiteers to imagine something worse to inflict on us.

If we'd negotiated a deal that was going to be voted on, against remaining in the EU, the EU would have negotiated in order for remaining to win the vote.

Can you really not understand that?

Can you really not understand that this wouldn't have worked, and they are intelligent enough to know that?

Casino_Royale

FF43 said:

Brom said:

I'm all for hearing from Verhofstadt, a happy reminder Brits made the correct choice.

Verhofstadt is eccentrically Anglophile. Lonely Brits don't have many friends in Europe.

Just sayin'

Yeah, he's an alright guy - good for a Belgian pint, and probably a laugh too - provided you don't get him onto the subject of the EU.

Then, he turns into a rabid, foam-flecked gesticulating euronutter.

Big_G_NorthWales

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

Your point?

I was only confirming the number of people who voted for Brexit

And I wasn't one of them, I voted remain

Casino_Royale

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Leon said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MarqueeMark said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

"It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support"

Labour should have abstained then. Shit politics by Labour, giving way too much time to the likes of Benn and Starmer, trying to get Brexit set aside. Well, they ended up on the wrong end of Boris and his 80 seat majority. Which of us was smarter?

I can't remember any senior Labour politician calling for Brexit to be 'set aside'. Some wanted a Norway style deal. Some wanted a referendum to confirm that May's version of Brexit was really what people had voted for (since no well-defined programme for Brexit had ever been offered to the electorate, just a mish-mash of mutually-incompatible promises). Was it smart politics? Maybe, maybe not. If May's deal had got through, perhaps May would now have a 100 seat majority, having 'got Brexit done'. Personally I prefer politicians to act in what they see as the national interest not in order to seek partisan advantage, but then I'm not a Tory.

“A referendum to confirm a referendum”. In other words ignore the first result because you didn’t like it. What pish

Not really. A first referendum on the principle and a second on the details doesn't seem totally crazy when making a consequential constitutional change. Especially when the first referendum promised people the moon on a stick.

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

I love the way the Remoaners prepare to pivot so quickly.

FeersumEnjineeya

Leon said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

Your point?

It was the largest democratic mandate in the history of the UK. Literally the biggest vote for anything, ever.

Yes, of course. But that has no bearing whatsoever on the point I was making.

Richard_Nabavi

FeersumEnjineeya said:

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

It's pretty silly, indeed raving bonkers, to blame the one person who campaigned vigorously for Remain for Brexit. And also pretty silly to blame those who voted for Theresa May: Brexit had already been decided by then, and if she had had the majority she asked for and needed, she'd have been able to deliver it in the sensible way she was planning, without Labour and other opposition parties helping (and actively voting with) the ERG to torpedo it.

I'll grant you the other two categories, but you need to add to them anyone who voted for Corbyn.

MarqueeMark

Casino_Royale said:

Hard to avoid the conclusion Macron isn't using the lorry blockage as extra leverage to get what he wants in the final Brexit deal.

He's holding out.

Emboldened by a Select Comittee saying the UK just HAVE to accept whatever is offered.

gealbhan

Big_G_NorthWales said:

gealbhan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Good question. If it does it kills how much of the fishing export market? If it doesn’t why not, poor little slithering, creepy crawling little creatures, what about their rights and mental well being? There’s things in aquarium more intelligent than what grazes in fields.

Most fish is frozen but shellfish is exported live

Yes it is. Poor little things. 🙁

williamglenn

Richard_Nabavi said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

It's pretty silly, indeed raving bonkers, to blame the one person who campaigned vigorously for Remain for Brexit. And also pretty silly to blame those who voted for Theresa May: Brexit had already been decided by then, and if she had had the majority she asked for and needed, she'd have been able to deliver it in the sensible way she was planning, without Labour and other opposition parties helping (and actively voting with) the ERG to torpedo it.

I'll grant you the other two categories.

Cameron's idea of campaigning for Remain was to spend years slagging off the EU to prove he was down with the Eurosceptics, and then bully people into voting for his deal by threatening them with the abyss if they didn't. He's one of the most disastrous Prime Ministers in history.

TrèsDifficile

williamglenn said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

Can always rely on Brexiteers to imagine something worse to inflict on us.

If we'd negotiated a deal that was going to be voted on, against remaining in the EU, the EU would have negotiated in order for remaining to win the vote.

Can you really not understand that?

Can you really not understand that this wouldn't have worked, and they are intelligent enough to know that?

Apparently not.

Richard_Nabavi

MarqueeMark said:

Casino_Royale said:

Hard to avoid the conclusion Macron isn't using the lorry blockage as extra leverage to get what he wants in the final Brexit deal.

He's holding out.

Emboldened by a Select Comittee saying the UK just HAVE to accept whatever is offered.

Yes, well they are not wrong, are they? That is the position Boris has boxed himself, and us, into.

MarqueeMark

williamglenn said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

TrèsDifficile said:

That means that you have to negotiate with people who know you're going to have another vote. AKA how to get the shittest deal imaginable.

We already seem to be getting the shittest deal imaginable. With the alternative of something even shitter.

You can't imagine a worse deal? I think that's the usual anti brexit soreness talking rather than you being quite so lacking in imagination.

Can always rely on Brexiteers to imagine something worse to inflict on us.

If we'd negotiated a deal that was going to be voted on, against remaining in the EU, the EU would have negotiated in order for remaining to win the vote.

Can you really not understand that?

Can you really not understand that this wouldn't have worked, and they are intelligent enough to know that?

There were a lot of Remain MPs (many now ex-MPs) not bright enough to understand this.

Foxy

MarqueeMark said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

A dark and dangerous nightbus at that.

Only if you accept Brexit as a dark and dangerous place.

Personally, I see all forms of Brexit as crap, so don't really distinguish between Mays crap deal, BoZos crap Deal or a crap No Deal. There was no need for Remainers to support any of them.

I appreciate Brexiteers want to spread the blame to Blair, or Cameron, or Swinson or whatever bogeyman they choose, but it simply doesn't wash. They voted for it and should own it.

FF43

There will be no extension of transition. Not happening. No point polling. No point discussing.

The deal will also not be agreed now before the end of the year. While EU Council might give a deal the nod this month, the EU parliament won't. In this scenario, there is a strong possibility of a period of No Deal, which could last for weeks before they ratify the Deal, if they ever do.

To be clear, a Deal is only about avoiding tariffs. Border checks will kick in on January 1st. Permanent border chaos will start from that date.

I do however agree with @Kinabalu that No Deal is unsustainable. There will be a deal that accepts the EU's terms. It's a question of when.

FeersumEnjineeya

Richard_Nabavi said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

It's pretty silly, indeed raving bonkers, to blame the one person who campaigned vigorously for Remain for Brexit. And also pretty silly to blame those who voted for Theresa May: Brexit had already been decided by then, and if she had had the majority she asked for and needed, she'd have been able to deliver it in the sensible way she was planning, without Labour and other opposition parties helping (and actively voting with) the ERG to torpedo it.

I'll grant you the other two categories.

Cameron richly deserves his share of the blame/kudos for Brexit, given that he was the one who called the referendum and set out its terms in the first place. May campaigned for PM on a mandate of implementing Brexit, and it was she who invoked Article 50 with no proper plan in place. So she also shares in the honours.

MikeSmithson

Leon said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

MarqueeMark said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Of course in hindsight Labour should have just abstained on May's deal or quietly had the Northern MPs vote for it, that was a real misstep. I got that totally wrong.

Yes. With hindsight that would have been a good play. But this IS all hinsdsight. At the time we had a PM and a government in the hole. Oppositions do not tend to dig them out of it. Especially when they are polling ok, as Labour were at that point. They were focused on getting an election and winning it.

It's not all hindsight. I was advising Labour's best course was to abstain at the time, ad nauseum. Brexit would than have been a Blue on Blue shitfest.

I still believe Corbyn wanted to ensure Brexit happened, one way or another. He didn't really care how hard it was.

The irony of course is that Corbyn's gut instinct was right on this one issue and he was making Labour abstain early on.

It was Starmer that was a leading advocate for the second referendum die hard remainerism and rejecting May's deal. Corbyn abandoned his own principles - for possibly the only time in 40 years of politics - and paid the price for doing so.

May's deal was shit. It's not the job of the opposition to vote for things they don't support because the government can't get its own side to vote for it and might be stupid enough to do something totally suicidal instead. Labour gave the government an opportunity to vote for a genuine compromise that respected the referendum result and the Tories whipped their MPs to vote against it. None of this is the fault of anyone outside of the Conservative Party.

The Tory Eurosceptics are getting exactly what they wanted despite not having the numbers in Parliament to do it.

Thank you for that. Years ago on this site I was a lone Leaver opposing all the way May's deal and I was being told by fellow Leavers time and again we wouldn't get anything more to my liking because there were not enough MPs in Parliament to facilitate that.

Well as it happened there were. Labour, LDs, TIG etc take a bow - by marching through the lobbies with Steve Baker etc look what you have brought about. I thank you for it.

They played very high stakes poker. I assumed (because of the numbers in parliament) we must lose but they were £4k up and decided to risk it all to play for the £100k grand prize.

They left with their bus fare home.

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

17,410,742 voted to leave the EU

Your point?

It was the largest democratic mandate in the history of the UK. Literally the biggest vote for anything, ever.

That was because there were only two choices on the ballot - and of course Putin was supporting Leave

Richard_Nabavi

williamglenn said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

I see the ridiculous gaslighting continues. The people who are responsible for Brexit are those who voted and/or campaigned for Cameron, Brexit, May and Johnson. No-one else. Brexit is yours, for better or worse. For God's sake, have the guts to own it.

It's pretty silly, indeed raving bonkers, to blame the one person who campaigned vigorously for Remain for Brexit. And also pretty silly to blame those who voted for Theresa May: Brexit had already been decided by then, and if she had had the majority she asked for and needed, she'd have been able to deliver it in the sensible way she was planning, without Labour and other opposition parties helping (and actively voting with) the ERG to torpedo it.

I'll grant you the other two categories.

Cameron's idea of campaigning for Remain was to spend years slagging off the EU to prove he was down with the Eurosceptics, and then bully people into voting for his deal by threatening them with the abyss if they didn't. He's one of the most disastrous Prime Ministers in history.

Poppycock. That's like blaming the solicitor who advises you against a bad purchase for the bad purchase you decide to make.

Cameron remain the best Prime Minister, apart from the very special case of Maggie, for at least a half century, in the sense that he ran the country and the government better than any other PM. It's completely absurd to blame him for decisions made by others - not least, voters.

IanB2

CorrectHorseBattery said:

I think there's a reasonable chance the Tory coalition splits as soon as Brexit is perceived to be finished, I might be wrong

Your certainty isn’t impelling me to rush over to Betfair.

gealbhan

ydoethur said:

gealbhan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On fish the UK has said it will ban the live export of animals to Europe post brexit

Does anyone know if that applies to shellfish

Good question. If it does it kills how much of the fishing export market? If it doesn’t why not, poor little slithering, creepy crawling little creatures, what about their rights and mental well being? There’s things in aquarium more intelligent than what grazes in fields.

Or indeed, sits on benches in Parliament.

You mean Stephen Crabb, Jean Crayfish and Leticia Octopus?

Theres some big, playing God decisions to be made isn’t there 😲