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Trump’s Plan D – it’s all about the Electoral College – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 21 in General
imageTrump’s Plan D – it’s all about the Electoral College – politicalbetting.com

“Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser”. So once said American Football coach Vince Lombardi. It is a philosophy Donald Trump takes to heart – though his record is somewhat patchier than Lomabrdi’s. Trump has a pathological, visceral fear of being seen to fail, to lose.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,988
    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 51,201
    edited November 21
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    If the likes of Fox News and all the GOP were backing Trumps action I might be, but they all seem to be tiptoeing away from having anything to do with Trump now. Only the nutty of the nutty elements are really pushing the election was stolen narrative and the courts are quite rightly throwing out all the nonsense.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    edited November 21
    On the one hand objectively it all seems like it's going nowhere, on the other hand I feel like the narrative of the story should come down to one senator, possibly Ted Cruz demanding an apology for the things Trump said about his father, then voting against Trump when he fails to give one, because he can't.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 62,626
    edited November 21
    Any nonsense by Trump could end up with President Pelosi. I'm not sure that's a fate either the GOP or the Democrats want.
  • YppiYppi Posts: 1
    The idea that Trump will win it if it goes to the House requires that a few states with Democratic majorities among their congressmen "decide" by having Republican congressmen against the will of the majority of their fellows from that state enter the chamber so as to make up a quorum of two thirds of states. What if when they come in Pelosi says "I can't see you" or "I can't hear you"?

    The answer is that presumably the House could vote on whether Pelosi was right, and there's nothing in the Constitution to say they'd have to vote by states, so they'd vote by members and Democrats would win the vote.

    Cue pandemonium.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 6,920
    I must admit I've been surprised at the lengths to which Trump is going to try to overturn the election result.

    But nothing I've seen suggests that Republican politicians in general will be willing to do more than humour him for a few weeks.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029
    Good article.
    This s**t would be better on stage (Where's the US David Hare?) than in the White House.
    But....There's nowt so queer as folk.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    This is all marvellous for those who want the Democrats to win the Georgian run-offs
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885
    I disagree. Trump is an amazing, outstanding, world class loser. He loses at nearly everything he does, with the notable exceptions of the Republican primaries and the 2016 election.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Really? Oh dear, that would be tragic. Think of all the deaths that would cause as people literally laughed their heads off.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    ydoethur said:

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Really? Oh dear, that would be tragic. Think of all the deaths that would cause as people literally laughed their heads off.
    Yes, Sergeant Major Williams applies, doesn't it! However, there are all the people a bit further down the tree who might be affected too. Those working in the hotel and golf-courses.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    ydoethur said:

    I disagree. Trump is an amazing, outstanding, world class loser. He loses at nearly everything he does, with the notable exceptions of the Republican primaries and the 2016 election.

    Indeed.

    And in one rather important way he even lost the 2016 election.

    Donald Trump was never elected President by a majority of American voters. He lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436
    Trump is becoming the turd that will not flush.

    It's about all his four years will be remembered for.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 166
    or at least create enough doubt and confusion that no electors are awarded from the disputed states so that Biden fails to gain 270 Electoral College votes


    Constitution says: "The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed"

    So I think if any states don't appoint electors, the 270 threshold goes down accordingly, i.e. Biden still just needs more votes than Trump. So Trump would need to knock out states worth 74 Biden votes.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 268
    AP - Biden lead now 6M+ and turnout 156.2M+ with NY state at 84% and odds and sods of 1-2% from many states left.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Trump's not going to be hurting for cash. How much would Amazon or Netflix give him for a reality show?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341
    Dura_Ace said:

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Trump's not going to be hurting for cash. How much would Amazon or Netflix give him for a reality show?
    True, but if he's in the courts, even they are going to be careful. And if criminal charges are brought.......
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 4,026
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Yup. Its a low probability event that should be zero probability.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,074
    JACK_W said:

    AP - Biden lead now 6M+ and turnout 156.2M+ with NY state at 84% and odds and sods of 1-2% from many states left.

    I think the Casino Royale tip of Biden 52% was not the finest but he is nudging a little closer to the figure.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320
    Okay, I know it gets boring talking about the crazy Betfair prices but holy poop PredictIt is on a whole different level.

    Biden is 1.14 there. Trump is a mere 5.9
    On the wacko crypto FTX exchange Biden is 1.21
  • kamskikamski Posts: 1,561
    Dura_Ace said:

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Trump's not going to be hurting for cash. How much would Amazon or Netflix give him for a reality show?
    nothing
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770

    And if criminal charges are brought.......

    He'll ask for twice as much money.

    He's also got a millions strong army of slack jawed yokels who defer purchase of meth, AR-15s and F350 lift kits to send the money to him instead.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    It's got to be more fun than Lockdown 2
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 32,885

    Dura_Ace said:

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Trump's not going to be hurting for cash. How much would Amazon or Netflix give him for a reality show?
    True, but if he's in the courts, even they are going to be careful. And if criminal charges are brought.......
    I would pay extra to watch his face as the judge gave him life.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,950
    “Talk of ‘beating Covid’ was always nonsense
    After immersing myself in the science, it’s clear to me that phrases like ‘all-out war’ only scared the nation out of its wits

    Matthew Parris“ (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/talk-of-beating-covid-was-always-nonsense-pqwsvk8hd
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    edited November 21
    Alistair said:

    Okay, I know it gets boring talking about the crazy Betfair prices but holy poop PredictIt is on a whole different level.

    Biden is 1.14 there. Trump is a mere 5.9
    On the wacko crypto FTX exchange Biden is 1.21

    Be careful with the crypto ones. If you found a bug in the code any time in the last couple of years, what you'd do would be to sit on it and wait for a really big market - this one - buy up the losing side and then exploit it.

    I'd be a lot more confident in these systems once this market is settled, it's their first big test.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 2,734
    Lot’s of deaths from false positivity going on everywhere.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Because of the consequences for the insurance market?
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 268

    JACK_W said:

    AP - Biden lead now 6M+ and turnout 156.2M+ with NY state at 84% and odds and sods of 1-2% from many states left.

    I think the Casino Royale tip of Biden 52% was not the finest but he is nudging a little closer to the figure.
    A good shout by @Casino_Royale Not far out but I think that projection will just fall short. Presently we have :

    AP - Biden 51.1 .. Trump 47.2 .. Others 1.7 .. Biden also only 13.5K short of 80M
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320

    Alistair said:

    Okay, I know it gets boring talking about the crazy Betfair prices but holy poop PredictIt is on a whole different level.

    Biden is 1.14 there. Trump is a mere 5.9
    On the wacko crypto FTX exchange Biden is 1.21

    Be careful with the crypto ones. If you found a bug in the code any time in the last couple of years, what you'd do would be to sit on it and wait for a really big market - this one - buy up the losing side and then exploit it.

    I'd be a lot more confident in these systems once this market is settled, it's their first big test.
    I don't touch crypto with a barge pole.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Good morning everyone.

    Mr. W, at 51-47 some may be calling for a recount...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591

    Lot’s of deaths from false positivity going on everywhere.
    It just shows you how ruthless these damned Liberals are!
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Andy_JS said:

    “Talk of ‘beating Covid’ was always nonsense
    After immersing myself in the science, it’s clear to me that phrases like ‘all-out war’ only scared the nation out of its wits

    Matthew Parris“ (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/talk-of-beating-covid-was-always-nonsense-pqwsvk8hd

    Seems like an odd headline in the month we've finally got a series of virus-busting weapons added to humanity's arsenal. Is the article similarly weird, or does it make better sense than the banner?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,215
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    I really don't think so, at all. There's the potential for violence from a few individuals, but I see no prospect of anything on a mass organised scale.

    @edmundintokyo did make this point before the election, but what's striking about Trump's coup attempt is how inept and lacking in bottle it is.

    When Trump first tweeted "stop the count" after election day he was still ahead in the count in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia. If his supporters, like those who had postured in the Michigan Capitol in a lockdown protest, had turned up in numbers, armed and determined, they could have stopped those counts. They could have destroyed ballots and made a count impossible.

    It didn't happen.

    Likewise, the much touted Republican observers who I was worried would intimidate Democrats and prevent them from voting on the day? Didn't happen.

    I never thought that Trump himself was attempting to organise these things, but I thought he was creating an atmosphere in which a capable Thomas Cromwell like figure could organise them, or a hothead like William de Tracy would be inspired to act.

    I'm sure Trump would have been delighted if someone had demonstrated the competence and determination to orchestrate a coup on his behalf, but that person doesn't yet exist.

    They didn't stop the votes from being cast, or counted, so constitutionally that's them done, and the Army lost. Republican Governors have talked with Biden - they're not about to foment rebellion.

    Trump is done. But what his shenanigans are doing is keeping the attention of his supporters onto him. It's preventing the Republican party as a whole from moving on.
  • Great article from David. His point about armed "observers" is a great one - why didn't he send in the Militias? Its increasingly clear that any hope he had to win the electoral college - the election that matters - is slipping away. So as I said before I think this means his next role is President of the (virtual) Confederacy.

    Its clear that the supporters of the Republicans and Democrats live in different realities. With wholly different perspectives on even the rather basic issues like rights and beliefs. I expect "states rights" to rear its head again. Why shouldn't shitkickers be allowed to oppress fags and blacks and foreigners and degenerates and women? Trump will stand up for their rights, leading a virtual Confederacy from Mar-a-Lago. Spewing his bile against an American democracy that has cheated 74m people out of their rights to oppress the 80m people who voted illegally against them.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 268

    Good morning everyone.

    Mr. W, at 51-47 some may be calling for a recount...

    Good morning MD.

    Indeed so .. :smile:

    There's about 1.25M votes in NY state still to be counted in heavy Biden counties. Give or take 0.05 I think we're on for :

    Biden 51.15 .. Trump 47.15 .. Others 1.7 .. Turnout 158M
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624
    Thanks for the header David, excellent summary of where we are.

    Trump will have to calculate whether it is better to try and win in 2024 or better to try and start a street war now that maybe keeps him in office.

    One thing we know is he is a coward.

    I guess the military will let it be known they wont be following him into a coup, but maybe there is no one brave enough to tell him that to his face?
  • Current Betfair prices:-

    Biden 1.04
    Democrats 1.04
    Biden PV 1.02
    Biden PV 49-51.9% 1.04
    Trump PV 46-48.9% 1.04
    Trump ECV 210-239 1.07
    Biden ECV 300-329 1.08
    Biden ECV Hcap -48.5 1.06
    Biden ECV Hcap -63.5 1.07
    Trump ECV Hcap +81.5 1.03

    AZ Dem 1.04
    GA Dem 1.02
    MI Dem 1.03
    NV Dem 1.04
    PA Dem 1.04
    WI Dem 1.05
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624

    Great article from David. His point about armed "observers" is a great one - why didn't he send in the Militias? Its increasingly clear that any hope he had to win the electoral college - the election that matters - is slipping away. So as I said before I think this means his next role is President of the (virtual) Confederacy.

    Its clear that the supporters of the Republicans and Democrats live in different realities. With wholly different perspectives on even the rather basic issues like rights and beliefs. I expect "states rights" to rear its head again. Why shouldn't shitkickers be allowed to oppress fags and blacks and foreigners and degenerates and women? Trump will stand up for their rights, leading a virtual Confederacy from Mar-a-Lago. Spewing his bile against an American democracy that has cheated 74m people out of their rights to oppress the 80m people who voted illegally against them.

    Oh good Biden's AG can have him arrested on domestic terrorism charges then?
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    A nuclear-armed United States of Dixie? Hell no.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    edited November 21
    Sir David Normington a former Permanent Secretary certainly put the boot in! 'I know why certain people have been defending her but we do have to ask how bullied people all over the country be feeling this morning?'.

    I can imagine one or two who might be choking on their cornflakes
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.


    I wanted him to win because a) What's the difference, really? He and Biden are both venal scum enslaved to capital. b) A Trump win would be better because of the apocalyptic chaos that would ensue if he lost and c) I thought it would be funny.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Okay, I know it gets boring talking about the crazy Betfair prices but holy poop PredictIt is on a whole different level.

    Biden is 1.14 there. Trump is a mere 5.9
    On the wacko crypto FTX exchange Biden is 1.21

    Be careful with the crypto ones. If you found a bug in the code any time in the last couple of years, what you'd do would be to sit on it and wait for a really big market - this one - buy up the losing side and then exploit it.

    I'd be a lot more confident in these systems once this market is settled, it's their first big test.
    I don't touch crypto with a barge pole.
    TBF these systems mostly seem to be working pretty well, ultimately they should be safer than a regular exchange. I don't think Augur has settled a market wrong to date, it's quite impressive. USD-pegged currency systems like Maker DAI are also working pretty well, so you don't need to worry about the value of your stake fluctuating. But if they're going to fail, it'll probably be on this market.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    I thought the same, hence my use of "dabbled".
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    Also, there a couple of shy Trumpaloompas on there who occasionally tantalise us with a flash of orange painted ankle but otherwise keep it on the DL but we all know who they are.
  • Its only serious if the people with the responsibility, Tory MPs, hold the PM to account. They won't, it won't make a difference to anything so is not serious. Just sad.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,205

    Great article from David. His point about armed "observers" is a great one - why didn't he send in the Militias? Its increasingly clear that any hope he had to win the electoral college - the election that matters - is slipping away. So as I said before I think this means his next role is President of the (virtual) Confederacy.

    Its clear that the supporters of the Republicans and Democrats live in different realities. With wholly different perspectives on even the rather basic issues like rights and beliefs. I expect "states rights" to rear its head again. Why shouldn't shitkickers be allowed to oppress fags and blacks and foreigners and degenerates and women? Trump will stand up for their rights, leading a virtual Confederacy from Mar-a-Lago. Spewing his bile against an American democracy that has cheated 74m people out of their rights to oppress the 80m people who voted illegally against them.

    A proper civil war looks out of the question as it would seem impossible that the US armed forces would be divided on the use of violence, and its fire power so great that there is only one side that could prevail. What is at least thinkable is IRA/ETA/Islamist style internal terrorism, not Trump organised but self organised by violent well armed idiots. The modern free world has yet to find a solution to such groups once they have decided they have a cause.

  • Dura_Ace said:

    Also, there a couple of shy Trumpaloompas on there who occasionally tantalise us with a flash of orange painted ankle but otherwise keep it on the DL but we all know who they are.

    How dare you speak of JackW like that. :dizzy:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624
    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    John Gray has a long piece in last week's New Statesman looking at the situation in America. The arrogance of liberals and progressives is a key issue he argues. Trump is a symptom rather than a cause.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 7,838
    edited November 21

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    Agree he should be taken at his word. Would vote Biden - but has a touch of admiration for the Trump political machine. Perhaps most of us have indeed continually underestimated Trump's effectiveness and are continuing to do so. Looking forward to the 2024 betting!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    edited November 21
    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.


    I wanted him to win because a) What's the difference, really? He and Biden are both venal scum enslaved to capital. b) A Trump win would be better because of the apocalyptic chaos that would ensue if he lost and c) I thought it would be funny.
    Apologies @Dura_Ace , of all our regular contributors I find you the most difficult to place. Anarchist in love with some mechanical products of capitalism seems closest.

    I should say, by the way, that the likes of @MrEd are genuinely useful in contributing to this site. It needs disparate views to flourish. I am in no way criticising him or @HYUFD. On most topics the balance of views here reflects the balance of views amongst the population that actually care. On Trump, however, not so much. We just don't get it.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    See, I think he is. He regularly posts cleverly misleading things like the demographics of Trump voters in 2016, or Leave voters. He's too smart to tell an outright lie, but when his narrative gets caught up in the spokes of reality, he doubles down on cherry-picked facts and logical contortions. That's the behaviour of someone who is afraid of admitting they're wrong about something. That kind of thing is entirely consistent with dissembling about voting intention.
    But, as I said, you can't truly know someone else's mind. Just my instinct about him.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 784

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    Surely it needn’t come to this. Just for the arms of federal govt to give more power back to the states. If a roaring majority of Louisiana wants to ban abortion, why should someone in California even deserve an opinion? Abortion was illegal in a constituent part of the UK until a year ago and no one in Britain much seemed to even notice.

    Equally gun control. Recreational marijuana. Gay marriage. Or any other of the most divisive culture war themes.

    Stop fighting a never ending pitched battle on the national level between unreconcilable view points and focus on what brings all Americans together.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 3,926
    edited November 21
    I've noticed that the replies to Trump and associates' tweets seem to be skewing increasingly towards opponents rather than "supporters"in recent days. Either his supporters are finally giving up the ghost, or the Russians have called off the bots.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624
    On the subject of trying to understand why Trump nearly won, Joan Williams book "White Working Class: Overcoming Class Cluelessness in America" is imho essential reading. Really clear and penetrating analysis of how the Dems have lost their roots.

    Personally, I think we only have a Biden presidency because Biden was seen as understanding the working class in the US by just enough people to put him over the line in the old rust belt states. The Scranton boy and all that.

    Damned close. Kamala wont do it in 2024.
  • moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    Surely it needn’t come to this. Just for the arms of federal govt to give more power back to the states. If a roaring majority of Louisiana wants to ban abortion, why should someone in California even deserve an opinion? Abortion was illegal in a constituent part of the UK until a year ago and no one in Britain much seemed to even notice.

    Equally gun control. Recreational marijuana. Gay marriage. Or any other of the most divisive culture war themes.

    Stop fighting a never ending pitched battle on the national level between unreconcilable view points and focus on what brings all Americans together.
    Is what brings Americans together really bigger than what divides them? I don't see it, and they get further apart each year.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,134


    I guess the military will let it be known they wont be following him into a coup, but maybe there is no one brave enough to tell him that to his face?

    They already have. It was widely shared on the Twitters, I expect he'll have seen it.
    https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2020/11/13/gen-milley-we-take-oath-constitution/6274373002/
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 8,848
    edited November 21
    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    There have been times in recent weeks when I have been too, but I'm less so now. He's not getting enough support from the Republican establishment.

    The ragtag army of overarmed airheads won't be enough to cause more than minor insurrections.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    John Gray has a long piece in last week's New Statesman looking at the situation in America. The arrogance of liberals and progressives is a key issue he argues. Trump is a symptom rather than a cause.
    Ah yes, the liberal arrogance of assuming black people deserve the vote.

    Even when they get over 50% of the vote it is always the liberals and the left who need to change their behaviour.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    Stretching it there a bit Peter in my opinion, may be "honest" and "true" in his right wing dreamland but suspect not in the real world. I will say no more.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 2,734
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Andy_JS said:

    “Talk of ‘beating Covid’ was always nonsense
    After immersing myself in the science, it’s clear to me that phrases like ‘all-out war’ only scared the nation out of its wits

    Matthew Parris“ (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/talk-of-beating-covid-was-always-nonsense-pqwsvk8hd

    Seems like an odd headline in the month we've finally got a series of virus-busting weapons added to humanity's arsenal. Is the article similarly weird, or does it make better sense than the banner?
    He could save time by pulling out all of the arguments from the past the military senior people used against Florence Nightingale’s insane beliefs that we could fight disease rather than simply surrendering to it as before. Surrender is so much easier.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    Isn't this essentially what Corbyn was found, by the Equality Commission, to have done?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 18,320

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    Agree he should be taken at his word. Would vote Biden - but has a touch of admiration for the Trump political machine. Perhaps most of us have indeed continually underestimated Trump's effectiveness and are continuing to do so. Looking forward to the 2024 betting!
    The roaring Trump machine that got a lower percentage of the vote than Romney in 2016 and will once again do so in 2020 once all legal votes are counted.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    See, I think he is. He regularly posts cleverly misleading things like the demographics of Trump voters in 2016, or Leave voters. He's too smart to tell an outright lie, but when his narrative gets caught up in the spokes of reality, he doubles down on cherry-picked facts and logical contortions. That's the behaviour of someone who is afraid of admitting they're wrong about something. That kind of thing is entirely consistent with dissembling about voting intention.
    But, as I said, you can't truly know someone else's mind. Just my instinct about him.
    You could just have said he is a far right wing Tory and economical with the truth.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    edited November 21
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Andy_JS said:

    “Talk of ‘beating Covid’ was always nonsense
    After immersing myself in the science, it’s clear to me that phrases like ‘all-out war’ only scared the nation out of its wits

    Matthew Parris“ (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/talk-of-beating-covid-was-always-nonsense-pqwsvk8hd

    Seems like an odd headline in the month we've finally got a series of virus-busting weapons added to humanity's arsenal. Is the article similarly weird, or does it make better sense than the banner?
    I read it as taking somewhat belated aim at the clown's perennial Churchill fantasies.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    There have been times in recent weeks when I have been too, but I'm less so now. He's not getting enough support from the Republican establishment.

    The ragtag army of overarmed airheads won't be enough to cause more than minor insurrections.
    That very much mirrors my own trajectory through this hellscape of an election. The one thing that really helped me, though, was recognising that just because Trump is in other people's heads, he doesn't get to live rent free in my head. I decided that, instead of indulging my fears about Trump's intentions, I would look at what he can actually do. And the answer is very reassuring indeed. He's gone. He can make enough trouble that small numbers of people will die, but it's now a criminal justice matter, not a political or military one.
    And, to be brutally honest, American violent crime isn't a pressing issue for me in the way that the the presidency and the robustness of US democracy is.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 8,848
    edited November 21
    deleted
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    ydoethur said:

    I disagree. Trump is an amazing, outstanding, world class loser. He loses at nearly everything he does, with the notable exceptions of the Republican primaries and the 2016 election.

    His business career (and tax affairs) would certainly suggest so.

    His capability (like someone we know closer to home) is in spinning any outcome as a triumph, regardless of the reality.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    malcolmg said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I di

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    Hyufd isn't dishonest or afraid to give a true opinion.
    See, I think he is. He regularly posts cleverly misleading things like the demographics of Trump voters in 2016, or Leave voters. He's too smart to tell an outright lie, but when his narrative gets caught up in the spokes of reality, he doubles down on cherry-picked facts and logical contortions. That's the behaviour of someone who is afraid of admitting they're wrong about something. That kind of thing is entirely consistent with dissembling about voting intention.
    But, as I said, you can't truly know someone else's mind. Just my instinct about him.
    You could just have said he is a far right wing Tory and economical with the truth.
    Admirably pithy, even though it edits out part of what I was saying.
  • @Roy_G_Biv

    Known him a lot longer than you, Roy. Just because he's obdurate doesn't make him dishonest.

    Aggravating at times, but dishonest? No.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 784

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    Surely it needn’t come to this. Just for the arms of federal govt to give more power back to the states. If a roaring majority of Louisiana wants to ban abortion, why should someone in California even deserve an opinion? Abortion was illegal in a constituent part of the UK until a year ago and no one in Britain much seemed to even notice.

    Equally gun control. Recreational marijuana. Gay marriage. Or any other of the most divisive culture war themes.

    Stop fighting a never ending pitched battle on the national level between unreconcilable view points and focus on what brings all Americans together.
    Is what brings Americans together really bigger than what divides them? I don't see it, and they get further apart each year.
    The USA has as strong a sense of national identity as more or less any democracy, especially one with such disparate and repeated waves of immigration.

    It shouldn’t be difficult for someone to pitch afresh the American dream but it does require some grown up acknowledgement on both sides that culture wars don’t have right or wrong opinions, just different ones.

    The problem is that the Left is as strident (if not more so) than the Right in thinking they are “right” and that their viewpoint is the only one that should be allowed to be aired.

    It surprises me that smart people on here still can’t understand why people voted for Trump in record numbers. Watch some Mark Blythe. Listen to Joe Rogan’s assessment of it. It’s not difficult to understand at all if you’re willing to show some empathy and maintain an open mind.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 19,566
    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    Surely it needn’t come to this. Just for the arms of federal govt to give more power back to the states. If a roaring majority of Louisiana wants to ban abortion, why should someone in California even deserve an opinion? Abortion was illegal in a constituent part of the UK until a year ago and no one in Britain much seemed to even notice.

    Equally gun control. Recreational marijuana. Gay marriage. Or any other of the most divisive culture war themes.

    Stop fighting a never ending pitched battle on the national level between unreconcilable view points and focus on what brings all Americans together.
    Yes, the whole point of Federalism is that different States can have different laws, even on major things like the death penalty.

    Also, like in Britain, the geography doesn't work. Omaha voted Blue, the rest of Nebraska Red, upstate New York is Red etc. Splits like that make for nasty civil conflicts.

    A key feature of functioning democracies is majority rule, but respect for minority opinion. Both sides have forgotten this, here and there.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 4,396


    I guess the military will let it be known they wont be following him into a coup, but maybe there is no one brave enough to tell him that to his face?

    They already have. It was widely shared on the Twitters, I expect he'll have seen it.
    https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2020/11/13/gen-milley-we-take-oath-constitution/6274373002/
    That is fabulous. Gettysburg Address for 2020.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    edited November 21

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    There have been times in recent weeks when I have been too, but I'm less so now. He's not getting enough support from the Republican establishment.

    The ragtag army of overarmed airheads won't be enough to cause more than minor insurrections.
    And Americans will be inhibited from going down that path from all the hyper patriotism they are fed from schooldays onwards, including extreme respect for the constitution and their armed forces, and because they know that the personal consequences of falling into the US justice system tend to be severe, both financially and physically.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 3,549
    edited November 21
    I think “Defund the Police” may have been a big vote winner for Trump. There are a lot of non-crazy republicans and I expect more than a few independents who thought that was a dangerous idea.
    I know that it doesn’t actually mean abolish the police, and that it was not something that Biden supported, but it was still a gift to those opposed to the Democrats.
    Beating someone as bad as Trump should have been easy, but the Democrats nearly failed anyway: this should have been an election with a similar margin to the one Reagan got in 1984. They need to work out why it wasn’t.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459
    kjh said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    I find @HYUFD to be completely honest. He will stubbornly stand by his argument no matter how irrational it may get, but many are guilty of that. Conversely he will be flexible as the Conservative party amends its position, but he is consistent in that as well even if others like me find it bizarre. Again he is not alone in doing this and is doing it honestly even though it appears contradictory.
    where do you buy those rose tinted specs, I want a pair.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624

    Its only serious if the people with the responsibility, Tory MPs, hold the PM to account. They won't, it won't make a difference to anything so is not serious. Just sad.
    I'm sure the ridiculous fuss about whether xmas is on or off will generally obscure any further discussion of Patel case.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 37,624

    I think “Defund the Police” may have been a big vote winner for Trump. There are a lot of non-crazy republicans and I expect more than a few independents who thought that was a dangerous idea.
    I know that it doesn’t actually mean abolish the police, and that it was not something that Biden supported, but it was still a gift to those opposed to the Democrats.
    Beating someone as bad as Trump should have been easy, but the Democrats nearly failed anyway: this should have been an election with a similar margin to the one Reagan got in 1984. They need to work out why it wasn’t.

    Yep. Dems have a hell of a lot of work to do to rebuild and reconnect their base frankly.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 13,311
    Unfortunately I doubt it.

    The man's an amoral liar and a cheat.

    This for him is a mere peccadillo
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 30,459

    Its only serious if the people with the responsibility, Tory MPs, hold the PM to account. They won't, it won't make a difference to anything so is not serious. Just sad.
    I'm sure the ridiculous fuss about whether xmas is on or off will generally obscure any further discussion of Patel case.
    Yes, full deployment of squirrels for sure.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 784
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Good article.

    I must admit, I'm more than a little scared that the US descends into civil war.

    Agree it is a great article, particularly the part about Trump being predictable.

    Re civil war, is it not time to seriously consider a peaceful divorce? Splitting into 3 or 4 countries works geographically and each would be able to more in tune with its populations.
    Surely it needn’t come to this. Just for the arms of federal govt to give more power back to the states. If a roaring majority of Louisiana wants to ban abortion, why should someone in California even deserve an opinion? Abortion was illegal in a constituent part of the UK until a year ago and no one in Britain much seemed to even notice.

    Equally gun control. Recreational marijuana. Gay marriage. Or any other of the most divisive culture war themes.

    Stop fighting a never ending pitched battle on the national level between unreconcilable view points and focus on what brings all Americans together.
    Yes, the whole point of Federalism is that different States can have different laws, even on major things like the death penalty.

    Also, like in Britain, the geography doesn't work. Omaha voted Blue, the rest of Nebraska Red, upstate New York is Red etc. Splits like that make for nasty civil conflicts.

    A key feature of functioning democracies is majority rule, but respect for minority opinion. Both sides have forgotten this, here and there.

    They have. But what you say is a clear argument for localisation of decision making as far as possible. America is quite good at this in some respects, with city mayors for example. It just seems to have forgotten the principle and leans too heavily into the constitution.

    Equally the EU principle of subsidiarity is on point. But became abused and forgotten.

    We all have to learn to live with the differences in opinion within and without our own countries. Lots about the way Indian society is organised that I don’t like but they’re a functioning democracy and that’s up to them. Live and let live and focus on what you have in common.

    Lots of lessons here for the UK and devolution too.
  • JACK_WJACK_W Posts: 268

    Dura_Ace said:

    Also, there a couple of shy Trumpaloompas on there who occasionally tantalise us with a flash of orange painted ankle but otherwise keep it on the DL but we all know who they are.

    How dare you speak of JackW like that. :dizzy:
    My Deputy TOTY should remind himself of who is PB's most celebrated cross-dresser, pantomine dame and world's leading feather boa collector ... :smiley:
  • I think “Defund the Police” may have been a big vote winner for Trump. There are a lot of non-crazy republicans and I expect more than a few independents who thought that was a dangerous idea.
    I know that it doesn’t actually mean abolish the police, and that it was not something that Biden supported, but it was still a gift to those opposed to the Democrats.
    Beating someone as bad as Trump should have been easy, but the Democrats nearly failed anyway: this should have been an election with a similar margin to the one Reagan got in 1984. They need to work out why it wasn’t.

    You are asking the wrong question. Trump is not a weak candidate, he gets votes in high numbers in places where they matter. He would have done against every potential Democratic candidate.

    They actually need to work out why Biden won, and ensure they have that kind of candidate in 2024.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770


    I guess the military will let it be known they wont be following him into a coup, but maybe there is no one brave enough to tell him that to his face?

    They already have. It was widely shared on the Twitters, I expect he'll have seen it.
    https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2020/11/13/gen-milley-we-take-oath-constitution/6274373002/
    Strong Battle of the Bulge vibe from Gen. Milley's 'Pinks & Greens'.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    kjh said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    I find @HYUFD to be completely honest. He will stubbornly stand by his argument no matter how irrational it may get, but many are guilty of that. Conversely he will be flexible as the Conservative party amends its position, but he is consistent in that as well even if others like me find it bizarre. Again he is not alone in doing this and is doing it honestly even though it appears contradictory.
    My recommendation would be to drill into the "facts" he posts. He often posts things that seem dubious to me, and sometimes, when you find the actual data, he's spot on. But other times you find that he's distorting the truth to just about fit it so some other narrative. And when you go back to the post, you'll see his wording is so very careful as to avoid an outright lie.
    To me, that shows a level of dishonest presentation that clever lawyers and journalists are so skilled at. And I would argue that nobody is really capable of that level wordsmithery without also knowing that they are offering misleading impressions of the data.
    But, hey, don't take my word for it. Try it some time, if he's even coming back. You'll see for yourselves.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,905
    kjh said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    DavidL said:

    What is truly astonishing, from a UK perspective, is that Trump has received 73.8m votes, far more than any candidate in history other than Joe Biden. Trump has very few supporters on this board, @MrEd is the only one that instantly comes to mind although @HYUFD dabbled, mainly, in fairness, pointing out that his chances were better than we thought. It shows the incredible gulf between American politics and mindset and ours.

    Millions of Americans clearly believe that Biden is some sort of a socialist. Other than being thick I really struggle to see any evidence for that at all in a very long career. Their definition of socialism would clearly include most of the current Tory party.

    I think that it is very difficult for us to predict what these millions might do. We simply do not understand their terms of reference.

    Re: HYUFD
    It's impossible to truly know someone's mind, but the tenor of his posts made me think he would have voted Trump. Of course, he repeatedly claimed that he would vote for Biden if he had a vote, but, in short, I didn't believe him.
    I find @HYUFD to be completely honest. He will stubbornly stand by his argument no matter how irrational it may get, but many are guilty of that. Conversely he will be flexible as the Conservative party amends its position, but he is consistent in that as well even if others like me find it bizarre. Again he is not alone in doing this and is doing it honestly even though it appears contradictory.
    The only lack of honesty I see is the habit of amending (or misdescribing) what he has said afterwards, if someone has come up with a valid challenge. He's not unique in that either.
  • To call it a culture war is misleading. The trouble, and the cause, is that each side has its own facts, not simply its own opinions. American broadcasters are no longer required to be neutral or even truthful, whether television, radio or these days, social media.

    An obvious, non-political sign of these different facts is the response to the Coronavirus pandemic: whether masks are useful; even whether the pandemic is real or a hoax.

    Politically this goes back at least as far as GW Bush and his notion of "truthiness" -- statements that sound like they are true even though objectively false. Trump might have exploited this but did not originate it.

    Could it happen here? It already has: £350 million; Conservative social media shitposting at the last election; the invented treachery of Ed Miliband's father.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 3,549
    edited November 21
    IshmaelZ said:


    I guess the military will let it be known they wont be following him into a coup, but maybe there is no one brave enough to tell him that to his face?

    They already have. It was widely shared on the Twitters, I expect he'll have seen it.
    https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2020/11/13/gen-milley-we-take-oath-constitution/6274373002/
    That is fabulous. Gettysburg Address for 2020.
    I found out recently that the Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address was a minor part of the proceedings; the main speaker’s Address starts

    Standing beneath this serene sky, overlooking these broad fields now reposing from the labors of the waning year, the mighty Alleghenies dimly towering before us, the graves of our brethren beneath our feet, it is with hesitation that I raise my poor voice to break the eloquent silence of God and Nature. But the duty to which you have called me must be performed;—grant me, I pray you, your indulgence and your sympathy.”
    It goes on for another two hours...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Dura_Ace said:

    Behind the scenes, of course, other lawyers and Inland Revenue people are gathering. And, of course Deutsche Bank need their money back. Unless he's President the whole ramshackle commercial enterprise which is the Trump Organisation could easily collapse.

    Trump's not going to be hurting for cash. How much would Amazon or Netflix give him for a reality show?
    Not sure he and Bezos are on good terms.

    Probably because Bezos really is mega rich.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,615
    edited November 21
    There are now at least five Repulican Senators that have publicly come out against Trump's stance and acknowledged Biden's Presidency.
    Romney, Collins, Murkowski, Cramer, Sasse.

    When the confirmation of the electoral votes comes to Congress, these will not vote for Trump. There will be a majority for Biden in the Senate and the House. It's game over for Trump.

    Some of these five might also be amenable to some bi-partisan cooperation with President Biden in the Senate.

    Mike Crapo will have a shitty job as Chief Deputy Whip keeping them in line.

    Crapo is obviously behind Trump.
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