Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Whoops – I nearly made an elementary mistake betting on a Senate Democratic majority – politicalbett

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited October 2020 in General
imageWhoops – I nearly made an elementary mistake betting on a Senate Democratic majority – politicalbetting.com

Flicking through the Betfair WH2020 markets a few minutes ago I was taken with the longer than evens price currently available on the Democrats winning a majority in the Senate.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    Wisconsin odds just moved a shade.
    https://twitter.com/kasie/status/1320887412571152387
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    With Kavanaugh again demonstrating what a hack he is.

    https://twitter.com/mgerrydoyle/status/1320936786168692737
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Great spot by Mike. This is one market I wasn't on, preferring instead to bet on individual Senate races but I too might have been tempted this week.

    Thank you.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,905
    Montana, Iowa, Alaska, Georgia (x2), plus they might win or come close in South Carolina, Kansas (where the Dems won the Governorship in 2018), Texas, and Kentucky.

    Now - are the Dems really going to win all... let me count 'em... THIRTEEN potentially competitive races?

    No.

    They're not.

    But they've got a good chance of 5 or 6 net gains.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198

    Great spot by Mike. This is one market I wasn't on, preferring instead to bet on individual Senate races but I too might have been tempted this week.

    Thank you.

    It was that way last time around, too.
    Indeed, I think I recall the same rule in Obama’s election.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    The Kavanaugh opinion was worse than I thought.
    https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1320873994032205824
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    The Rehnquist opinion in Bush v Gore (which was definitely not adopted by the court at the time) effectively declared the Supreme Court a national elections board with veto power over states’ electoral processes.
    As Stern explains.
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/barrett-election-bush-v-gore-vengeance.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    Roberts dissented from that opinion, while the rest of the conservatives, including Gorsuch, concurred.
    https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1320876263440027649

    Of course Barrett may well now help form a majority in favour of it. Which would see the recent 4-4 Pennsylvania decision, which Republicans are sending back to the court, go the other way.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    I think Mike is still wrong about a 50/50 tie - that counts as no overall majority.

    " A majority of seats requires either party to control at least 51 of the 100 Seats in the US Senate. Independent or any other party Representatives caucusing with either the Democrats or Republicans will NOT count for the purposes of this market."

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Nigelb said:

    Roberts dissented from that opinion, while the rest of the conservatives, including Gorsuch, concurred.
    https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1320876263440027649

    Of course Barrett may well now help form a majority in favour of it. Which would see the recent 4-4 Pennsylvania decision, which Republicans are sending back to the court, go the other way.

    This isn't about voting rights, this is about federalism itself.

    If the decision was about whether black people could vote then Roberts would be right there denying them the vote.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,140
    Just finished listening to this podcast, don't miss it, it's seriously great:
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,959
    I wonder if the bookies will pay out when the SC gives Trump the election.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    I don't think Dems have a good chance of doing it. They need 7 seats to flip if they lose Alabama to get to 51.

    According to electoral-college they are on course for 5.

    SC, GA, MT and KS are close but feels a stretch to me.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,140
    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    They're begging him to *talk* about packing the court, which he isn't going to do, because he's good at politics.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think Dems have a good chance of doing it. They need 7 seats to flip if they lose Alabama to get to 51.

    According to electoral-college they are on course for 5.

    SC, GA, MT and KS are close but feels a stretch to me.

    If the odds were more generous, I’d bet on it, but not tempted.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,879
    FTPBL


    I continue to struggle to understand how pollsters are dealing with people who have already voted. Do they even ask the question 'Have you voted already?'

    Put it the other way round. Suppose you have already voted for Mr X, and you are askedd by a polling company "How are you going to vote in the presidential election on 3rd November?" Would you consider answering anything other than Mr X?

    I suggest that if you say "Mr Y" or "Don't know/won't vote" then you would be an unreliable poll respondant anyway.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,905
    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think Dems have a good chance of doing it. They need 7 seats to flip if they lose Alabama to get to 51.

    According to electoral-college they are on course for 5.

    SC, GA, MT and KS are close but feels a stretch to me.

    I suspect KS won't be close... but what about Alaska? That has all the hallmarks of a surprise Senate race.

    Simply: CO, ME, AZ are the "easy" Dem pickups.

    NC and IA is likely, GA (this time...) and AK are perhaps 50/50. And then you can add SC, KY, KS and GA (Loeffler vs Warnock) as unlikely, but far frm impossible.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    US health care personnel March - May

    "Analysis of COVID-19 hospitalization data from 13 sites indicated that 6% of adults hospitalized with COVID-19 were HCP. Among HCP hospitalized with COVID-19, 36% were in nursing-related occupations, and 73% had obesity. Approximately 28% of these patients were admitted to an intensive care unit, 16% required invasive mechanical ventilation, and 4% died."

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6943e3.htm?s_cid=mm6943e3_w

    Note 4% mortality among presumably non-elderly.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    MikeL said:

    I think Biden will shy away from increasing Supreme Court unless he feels he absolutely has to. It would be a massive thing to do after approx 150 years.

    I just wonder if things might find some kind of natural equilibrium. We already know Roberts will often go with the Liberals - it only needs one more Justice to show similar flexibility - and maybe Gorsuch or Barrett will do that.

    ie The Justices may think "If we strike lots of key things down he'll create more Justices" - so then they don't in fact strike those things down.

    Spot on.

    This will go down with your "the left are over reacting, Trump will be a perfectly mundane president shackled by the moderating influence of the Senate and party establishment" prediction.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    eristdoof said:

    FTPBL


    I continue to struggle to understand how pollsters are dealing with people who have already voted. Do they even ask the question 'Have you voted already?'

    Put it the other way round. Suppose you have already voted for Mr X, and you are askedd by a polling company "How are you going to vote in the presidential election on 3rd November?" Would you consider answering anything other than Mr X?

    I suggest that if you say "Mr Y" or "Don't know/won't vote" then you would be an unreliable poll respondant anyway.
    In the UK I have a feeling it's illegal to ask How did you vote. But the question is always If there were a GE tomorrow, and I don't see what stops you asking that, or drawing conclusions from the answer.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,557
    Interesting contrast between the UK & Scotland on attitudes towards politics. Recall that "Progressive Activists" (mainly Labour in England, SNP Scotland) are orders of magnitude more likely to engage in social media than any other group - so the "Twitter Picture" of "politics are cr@p in England, brilliant in Scotland" is driven by this group and their differing perceptions

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,557
    But some good news:

    Britain presents a sharp contrast to the binary polarisation in the United States, where partisan identities are deeply entrenched. Compared to Americans, political party attachment plays a much weaker role in British people’s sense of identity.

    – Among those who identify with a political party, only 32 per cent say that being a supporter of a political party is an important part of their identity, compared to 67 per cent of Americans (and only 7 per cent say it is very important, compared to 31 per cent of Americans).

    – Another measure of the importance of political parties to people’s sense of personal identity is whether people say that they have a sense of pride in their party. Only 43 per cent in Britain say so (compared
    to almost twice this number in the US, in research for a report being published by More in Common in late 2020).21


    https://www.britainschoice.uk/media/4yulkygt/moreincommon_britainschoice_report.pdf
    Page 106
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,557
    Another area where "Progressive Activists" (and hence Twitter) differ from the majority:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    edited October 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    eristdoof said:

    FTPBL


    I continue to struggle to understand how pollsters are dealing with people who have already voted. Do they even ask the question 'Have you voted already?'

    Put it the other way round. Suppose you have already voted for Mr X, and you are askedd by a polling company "How are you going to vote in the presidential election on 3rd November?" Would you consider answering anything other than Mr X?

    I suggest that if you say "Mr Y" or "Don't know/won't vote" then you would be an unreliable poll respondant anyway.
    In the UK I have a feeling it's illegal to ask How did you vote. But the question is always If there were a GE tomorrow, and I don't see what stops you asking that, or drawing conclusions from the answer.
    Only within the precinct of a polling station. But it’s not a question people like nor one the campaigners need to ask. YouGov and the like ask it during the closing days of a campaign.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think Dems have a good chance of doing it. They need 7 seats to flip if they lose Alabama to get to 51.

    According to electoral-college they are on course for 5.

    SC, GA, MT and KS are close but feels a stretch to me.

    I suspect KS won't be close... but what about Alaska? That has all the hallmarks of a surprise Senate race.

    Simply: CO, ME, AZ are the "easy" Dem pickups.

    NC and IA is likely, GA (this time...) and AK are perhaps 50/50. And then you can add SC, KY, KS and GA (Loeffler vs Warnock) as unlikely, but far frm impossible.
    You're right that I missed Alaska. It's more likely than I initially thought, you've convinced me. I'd want 3/1 I think.

    I would have Dems as underdogs in GA and AK, (KY is very unlikely IMO).

    Most of those states are not competitive in the presidential election and are normally pretty Republican, but if this is a wave year it could well happen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,473
    IshmaelZ said:

    US health care personnel March - May

    "Analysis of COVID-19 hospitalization data from 13 sites indicated that 6% of adults hospitalized with COVID-19 were HCP. Among HCP hospitalized with COVID-19, 36% were in nursing-related occupations, and 73% had obesity. Approximately 28% of these patients were admitted to an intensive care unit, 16% required invasive mechanical ventilation, and 4% died."

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6943e3.htm?s_cid=mm6943e3_w

    Note 4% mortality among presumably non-elderly.

    It's probably halved since, but not just the flu.

    I think viral dose is part of the explanation. In the early days PPE was inadequate there too.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    Court packing won't happen this time because
    a) Dems won't get 50 senators in support
    b)` Biden still believes in the false dream of bipartisanship.

    But I think it will happen at some point because the Supreme Court are only going to get more involved in politics.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073
    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
  • Nigelb said:

    The Kavanaugh opinion was worse than I thought.
    https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1320873994032205824

    And this will be the game plan. Sure, Biden will win the election. But so many of the ballots cast for Biden were fraudulent that they have to be discarded. Making way for a Trump win.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Clearly a rule either way is fair, as long as you know upfront and don't try and destroy the postal service during a pandemic when many more will rely on it.
  • DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited October 2020
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Because people are casting their vote on the basis that as long as they post it before the election the vote wil be counted - that is what the rules were setup to be.

    The SC has just yanked that. Due to the shit was of the US Postal system that could end up invalidating votes that were posted yesterday.

    US elections are not UK elections. Almost all the states with long history of postal voting operate on a " as long as it is postmarked before the election and arrives within X days of election day the vote will be counted" basis.

    We could now see those election laws struck down state by state as the election is on going.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think Dems have a good chance of doing it. They need 7 seats to flip if they lose Alabama to get to 51.

    According to electoral-college they are on course for 5.

    SC, GA, MT and KS are close but feels a stretch to me.

    I suspect KS won't be close... but what about Alaska? That has all the hallmarks of a surprise Senate race.

    Simply: CO, ME, AZ are the "easy" Dem pickups.

    NC and IA is likely, GA (this time...) and AK are perhaps 50/50. And then you can add SC, KY, KS and GA (Loeffler vs Warnock) as unlikely, but far frm impossible.
    The Republican Kansas candidate is shitting it. Has demanded another debate with his opponent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Because people are casting their vote on the basis that as long as they post it before the election the vote wil be counted - that is what the rules were setup to be.

    The SC has just yanked that. Due to the shit was of the US Postal system that could end up invalidating votes that were posted yesterday.

    US elections are not UK elections. Almost all the states with long history of postal voting operate on a " as long as it is postmarked before the election and arrives within X days of election day the vote will be counted" basis.

    We could now see those election laws struck down state by state as the election is on going.
    A post box is not a ballot box. I think people are alert to the dangers of the postal system which is why we are seeing such an incredible amount of early voting with millions of votes in and delivered already.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073
    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Clearly a rule either way is fair, as long as you know upfront and don't try and destroy the postal service during a pandemic when many more will rely on it.
    Oh absolutely.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited October 2020
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?

    Roberts seems to be taking the stance that the Federal Court shouldn't intervene and the law should stay at State supreme Court level (hence differing decisions in Penn and Wisconsin). However post Barrett nomination even that position may not hold the line, given the rationale used by Kavanaugh which basically seems to allow the Supreme Court to rule in the Republicans favour, regardless of the legal position in the states (he seems to be saying that he will back decisions of state legislatures over state supreme courts).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    Because they seem to retain good (publicly accessible) records of who has voted. So if you've voted in person, then any subsequent mail in vote will not be. And if your mail in vote has been registered then you will be turned away at the ballot box.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?

    Roberts seems to be taking the stance that the Federal Court shouldn't intervene and the law should stay at State supreme Court level (hence differing decisions in Penn and Wisconsin). However post Barrett nomination even that position may not hold the line, given the rationale used by Kavanaugh which basically seems to allow the Supreme Court to rule in the Republicans favour, regardless of the legal position in the states (he seems to be saying that he will back decisions of state legislatures over state supreme courts).
    Yes, far more important than the effect of this specific decision it is the "logic" used to arrive at it that is the outrage and danger.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,140
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    In some states you have to first invalidate your mail-in ballot, which can be done on the spot. An election administrator I follow on the twitters was complaining that it's a huge palava when they have to do that, and it's one of the things that results in the enormous queues that everyone complains about.
  • IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    Surely the relevant question is how they stop people voting at all. Which in a healthy democracy like the US is an admirable aim for the GOP to be pursuing. If people can't be trusted to vote the right way then they shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    The Democrats main insurance against this is to win massively. Then it doesn't matter if you get 10k votes thrown out because you won by 100k.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,893
    It really is rubbish isn't it! If this was Panama or Bolivia the US would be on it's high horse, complaining about 'lack of democracy'.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    Because they seem to retain good (publicly accessible) records of who has voted. So if you've voted in person, then any subsequent mail in vote will not be. And if your mail in vote has been registered then you will be turned away at the ballot box.
    Yes, but you could hand one of the papers to someone else who slips it into the ballot box folded inside their own?

    Which is why we do verification, balancing the box totals, after all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    .
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    Different states have different rules.
    Why the sudden concern ?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,007
    rkrkrk said:

    Court packing won't happen this time because
    a) Dems won't get 50 senators in support
    b)` Biden still believes in the false dream of bipartisanship.

    But I think it will happen at some point because the Supreme Court are only going to get more involved in politics.

    Yes, on the basis that Democrat senators in red states are unlikely to vote for such a step one has to bear in mind the senators for West Virginia, Montana and Ohio who will be up for re-election in 2024.

    I think Tester and Manchin, in particular, could be names we will hear a lot more about, assuming Biden is President and the Democrats have nominal control of the Senate.

    I seem to recall that Republicans were pretty successful in bringing pressure to bear on such senators during the period of Obama's Presidency when the Democrats had nominal control of the Senate.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,701
    Ironically the SC rulings won’t necessarily help Trump as Dems have been much quicker in returning their ballots . There seems to be some hysteria that the SC is for example going to step in after a count is completed and summarily discard thousands of Dem votes because Trump told them to !
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    So how do they stop people voting twice, if not by the UK's system of preventing anyone ever being issued more than one paper? Even if your paper is damaged, here you have to produce enough of it to demonstrate that it can't be used; if the dog has eaten it, tough.
    Because they seem to retain good (publicly accessible) records of who has voted. So if you've voted in person, then any subsequent mail in vote will not be. And if your mail in vote has been registered then you will be turned away at the ballot box.
    Yes, but you could hand one of the papers to someone else who slips it into the ballot box folded inside their own?

    Which is why we do verification, balancing the box totals, after all.
    Possibly mail in ballots look different? So slipping them into the ballot box would get noticed?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073

    It really is rubbish isn't it! If this was Panama or Bolivia the US would be on it's high horse, complaining about 'lack of democracy'.

    And this is relatively trivial compared with the rules preventing ex convicts from voting, the voter suppression techniques of adequate identification preventing people from getting on the register in the first place or exercising the right to vote if you achieve that, the absurd lack of polling stations in undesirable areas, the gerrymandering that the SC refuses to address.....#notafunctioningdemocracy
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    It really is rubbish isn't it! If this was Panama or Bolivia the US would be on it's high horse, complaining about 'lack of democracy'.

    From reading about some of the procedures in place, i get the impression that in many respects the US is far more advanced in the actions it takes to prevent voter fraud than in many other countries. But this is necessary because they have far more partisan control over the electoral process and potential for fraudulent activity than in many other countries.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,701
    If state election law allows ballots arriving after Election Day but postmarked before to be counted then the SC won’t over rule that . It seems that the SC doesn’t want courts to be changing state election laws .
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    nico679 said:

    Ironically the SC rulings won’t necessarily help Trump as Dems have been much quicker in returning their ballots . There seems to be some hysteria that the SC is for example going to step in after a count is completed and summarily discard thousands of Dem votes because Trump told them to !

    The concern seems to be that Republican dominated state legislatures will find some way to ensure that Trump wins (up to and including over-ruling the actual votes, if they can't find a formulation that fits with a Trump victory) and the Supreme Court (backed by "originalists") will go along with that.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    The egregious bit was not the decision itself, but the Kavanaugh concurrence.
    If Barrett sides with him and the other three similarly minded conservatives in upcoming cases, which are numerous, then the floodgates are opened.

    On a straightforward reading of the constitution, the role of the federal Supreme Court in presidential elections ought to be quite limited. The Kavanaugh view would make them arbiter of the result, which they are simply not.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,073
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
    Just look at the fuss over the Internal Markets Bill because it might result in a Minister breaking an international agreement in the future, the hysteria about trying to limit judicial review, the decision of the Supreme Court in the prorogation of Parliament case. Many people argue on these threads and elsewhere that our political class needs to be constrained by the law, ruled by the law and restricted by the law in what they can do. The sovereignty of Parliament is just a bit too wild for them, a democratic dictatorship.

    My concern is that when Justices make decisions about political matters they undermine democratic legitimacy to the system and we should be careful what we wish for. For hundreds of years Courts took the view that into these areas they should not tread but that is no longer the view. The actions of the American Supreme Court are a good example of the hazards of that.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    nico679 said:

    If state election law allows ballots arriving after Election Day but postmarked before to be counted then the SC won’t over rule that . It seems that the SC doesn’t want courts to be changing state election laws .

    That is the current position on the 8 person court. It may not be after today.
  • nico679 said:

    Ironically the SC rulings won’t necessarily help Trump as Dems have been much quicker in returning their ballots . There seems to be some hysteria that the SC is for example going to step in after a count is completed and summarily discard thousands of Dem votes because Trump told them to !

    I am of the opinion that the SC developments had help enthuse the Democrats to get out and vote, like they did in 2018. Trump has been very effective at getting out both bases this election.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,007
    DavidL said:

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that UK Courts should be reinterpreting 18th or 19th century statute in the apparent manner of some SCOTUS decisions. People have defended our courts when they have held politicians to existing law.

    What I would say is something of a recent trend that might not be helpful is the habit of politicians to put policy objectives into law as a substitute to developing policy to achieve them.

    This necessarily drags courts further into politics as the question of whether a government has been successful in achieving its policy objectives becomes a legal issue rather than a political one.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
    Just look at the fuss over the Internal Markets Bill because it might result in a Minister breaking an international agreement in the future, the hysteria about trying to limit judicial review, the decision of the Supreme Court in the prorogation of Parliament case. Many people argue on these threads and elsewhere that our political class needs to be constrained by the law, ruled by the law and restricted by the law in what they can do. The sovereignty of Parliament is just a bit too wild for them, a democratic dictatorship.

    My concern is that when Justices make decisions about political matters they undermine democratic legitimacy to the system and we should be careful what we wish for. For hundreds of years Courts took the view that into these areas they should not tread but that is no longer the view. The actions of the American Supreme Court are a good example of the hazards of that.
    They argue that the Executive needs to be constrained by the Rule of Law. Not Parliament.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    DavidL said:

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that UK Courts should be reinterpreting 18th or 19th century statute in the apparent manner of some SCOTUS decisions. People have defended our courts when they have held politicians to existing law.

    What I would say is something of a recent trend that might not be helpful is the habit of politicians to put policy objectives into law as a substitute to developing policy to achieve them.

    This necessarily drags courts further into politics as the question of whether a government has been successful in achieving its policy objectives becomes a legal issue rather than a political one.
    This is a good point.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,156
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    US health care personnel March - May

    "Analysis of COVID-19 hospitalization data from 13 sites indicated that 6% of adults hospitalized with COVID-19 were HCP. Among HCP hospitalized with COVID-19, 36% were in nursing-related occupations, and 73% had obesity. Approximately 28% of these patients were admitted to an intensive care unit, 16% required invasive mechanical ventilation, and 4% died."

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6943e3.htm?s_cid=mm6943e3_w

    Note 4% mortality among presumably non-elderly.

    It's probably halved since, but not just the flu.

    I think viral dose is part of the explanation. In the early days PPE was inadequate there too.
    I do wonder about the emphasis on throw away PPE. Gloves are one thing - but having everything one use just seem to be begging for supply chain problems.

    The pictures I've seen of assemblages of separate visors, masks etc seem uncomfortable and full of gaps.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    Now this is test and trace.....

    (CNN):China has rolled out mass coronavirus testing for nearly 5 million people and imposed lockdown measures in the prefecture of Kashgar in the far western region of Xinjiang, after a single asymptomatic coronavirus case was reported on Saturday.

    The testing drive has so far identified 137 additional cases -- and all are asymptomatic, according to Xinjiang's regional health commission. This is the highest daily number of asymptomatic Covid-19 cases reported in China in nearly seven months.

    As of Sunday afternoon, some 2.8 million people have been tested. The government expects to finish testing all of Kashgar's 4.7 million population by Tuesday.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,884
    What the actual f is going on here

    Cocaine Mitch!!! 🤣🤣🤣 pic.twitter.com/9Ux1Gj6wbE

    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) October 27, 2020
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    The egregious bit was not the decision itself, but the Kavanaugh concurrence.
    If Barrett sides with him and the other three similarly minded conservatives in upcoming cases, which are numerous, then the floodgates are opened.

    On a straightforward reading of the constitution, the role of the federal Supreme Court in presidential elections ought to be quite limited. The Kavanaugh view would make them arbiter of the result, which they are simply not.
    And it is worth noting that EVEN the Bush vs Gore decision recognised this - in specifically writing into the ruling that the case was unique and should NOT be treated as a precedent for any future cases. It stood alone due to the circumstances of the case.

    Kavanaugh's opinion didn't just cite it as a precedent, it cited an opinion within it that didn't even command majority support!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    nico679 said:

    If state election law allows ballots arriving after Election Day but postmarked before to be counted then the SC won’t over rule that . It seems that the SC doesn’t want courts to be changing state election laws .

    Four justices voted to do exactly that in the Pennsylvania case.
    It was tied 4-4, and will be ruled on again after Barrett’s confirmation. We don’t know what the SC will now do.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    IanB2 said:

    Now this is test and trace.....

    (CNN):China has rolled out mass coronavirus testing for nearly 5 million people and imposed lockdown measures in the prefecture of Kashgar in the far western region of Xinjiang, after a single asymptomatic coronavirus case was reported on Saturday.

    The testing drive has so far identified 137 additional cases -- and all are asymptomatic, according to Xinjiang's regional health commission. This is the highest daily number of asymptomatic Covid-19 cases reported in China in nearly seven months.

    As of Sunday afternoon, some 2.8 million people have been tested. The government expects to finish testing all of Kashgar's 4.7 million population by Tuesday.

    To be fair, they're not really doing much on the 'trace' side.
  • Pulpstar said:

    What the actual f is going on here

    Cocaine Mitch!!! 🤣🤣🤣 pic.twitter.com/9Ux1Gj6wbE

    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) October 27, 2020
    The Trumps are off their tits on Coke. I thought that was priced in...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
    Just look at the fuss over the Internal Markets Bill because it might result in a Minister breaking an international agreement in the future, the hysteria about trying to limit judicial review, the decision of the Supreme Court in the prorogation of Parliament case. Many people argue on these threads and elsewhere that our political class needs to be constrained by the law, ruled by the law and restricted by the law in what they can do. The sovereignty of Parliament is just a bit too wild for them, a democratic dictatorship.

    My concern is that when Justices make decisions about political matters they undermine democratic legitimacy to the system and we should be careful what we wish for. For hundreds of years Courts took the view that into these areas they should not tread but that is no longer the view. The actions of the American Supreme Court are a good example of the hazards of that.
    No, what you’re arguing for is that government not be bound by law at all.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Pulpstar said:

    What the actual f is going on here

    Cocaine Mitch!!! 🤣🤣🤣 pic.twitter.com/9Ux1Gj6wbE

    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) October 27, 2020
    https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cocaine-mitch
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565
    Thank you. Looks interesting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    edited October 2020
    alex_ said:

    IanB2 said:

    Now this is test and trace.....

    (CNN):China has rolled out mass coronavirus testing for nearly 5 million people and imposed lockdown measures in the prefecture of Kashgar in the far western region of Xinjiang, after a single asymptomatic coronavirus case was reported on Saturday.

    The testing drive has so far identified 137 additional cases -- and all are asymptomatic, according to Xinjiang's regional health commission. This is the highest daily number of asymptomatic Covid-19 cases reported in China in nearly seven months.

    As of Sunday afternoon, some 2.8 million people have been tested. The government expects to finish testing all of Kashgar's 4.7 million population by Tuesday.

    To be fair, they're not really doing much on the 'trace' side.
    Which is exactly the point of mass testing - it renders the most difficult bit unnecessary.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243
    How are pollsters adjusting for what looks like a +60% turnout? I seem to recall much of the Brexit polling under counting leavers who hadn’t bothered voting for years.

    Presumably we should balance of probabilities say these newly engaged voters are leaning heavily Democrat (or rather Not Trump), given clues such as Robert’s post the other day about increased youth turnout. It’s hard to see that Trump has captured a particular zeitgeist sufficiently to bring out new supporters in heavy numbers that he didn’t manage to engage last time.

  • Pulpstar said:

    What the actual f is going on here

    Cocaine Mitch!!! 🤣🤣🤣 pic.twitter.com/9Ux1Gj6wbE

    — Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) October 27, 2020
    Well if I was to bet on which one of Junior or McConnell did cocaine I know where my money would be going.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,879
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.
    The fact that the UK has the rule that postal votes have to be delivered before the polling station closes, does not mean that this is the rule everywhere.

    In Australia they allow postal votes count as long as they are postmarked for that day. A constituency has to also wait for overseas and military votes. This means that like in the USA many seats are provisionally declared before the final counts are published, but in a few close seats it can take up to a couple of weeks before the winner is announced.

    The point is that the rules are not the same everywhere, and that each US state should be allowed to carry out the rules regarding absentee and mail in votes that apply in that state, and not be overruled by the SC.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    It was his boss, who had been lending him money. And not some underworld story of sheeps' stomachs at dawn. Disappointing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,561
    Very off topic: Today is our rabbit's birthday. Nine years old and still full on energy.

    Less off topic and less celebratory, we have the latest ONS death data to look forward to this morning.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,073
    IanB2 said:

    Now this is test and trace.....

    (CNN):China has rolled out mass coronavirus testing for nearly 5 million people and imposed lockdown measures in the prefecture of Kashgar in the far western region of Xinjiang, after a single asymptomatic coronavirus case was reported on Saturday.

    The testing drive has so far identified 137 additional cases -- and all are asymptomatic, according to Xinjiang's regional health commission. This is the highest daily number of asymptomatic Covid-19 cases reported in China in nearly seven months.

    As of Sunday afternoon, some 2.8 million people have been tested. The government expects to finish testing all of Kashgar's 4.7 million population by Tuesday.

    One wonders how they are dealing with false positives? Double (i.e. second test if first is positive) test? Or are these folk actually false positives?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080
    IanB2 said:

    It was his boss, who had been lending him money. And not some underworld story of sheeps' stomachs at dawn. Disappointing.
    Although he did, appropriately, end up getting an offal stuffing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Poster on another forum just got the acceptance and processing of their postal vote confirmed. 16 days after they posted it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,018
    alex_ said:

    It really is rubbish isn't it! If this was Panama or Bolivia the US would be on it's high horse, complaining about 'lack of democracy'.

    From reading about some of the procedures in place, i get the impression that in many respects the US is far more advanced in the actions it takes to prevent voter fraud than in many other countries. But this is necessary because they have far more partisan control over the electoral process and potential for fraudulent activity than in many other countries.
    But it is a partisan response to partisan voter fraud. "We call out your perceived voter fraud, but our voter fraud can stand".

    Gore v Bush, state by state until Trump gets the College looks quite likely- which is industrial scale voter fraud.
  • kjh said:

    Thank you. Looks interesting.
    The Florida one is good as the votes are recorded by affiliation, so you can see how things are progressing.

    I don't quite understand it though, as it says that there are more Republican voters than Democrat registered ones, but if you look at the "Modelled Party Vote Share" then the Democrats are ahead there instead.

    But you can see a trend in there that the Republicans are closing the gap, it was 35%-54% and is now 40%-49%, I guess as more rural votes are counted after the urban ones.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
    Just look at the fuss over the Internal Markets Bill because it might result in a Minister breaking an international agreement in the future, the hysteria about trying to limit judicial review, the decision of the Supreme Court in the prorogation of Parliament case. Many people argue on these threads and elsewhere that our political class needs to be constrained by the law, ruled by the law and restricted by the law in what they can do. The sovereignty of Parliament is just a bit too wild for them, a democratic dictatorship.

    My concern is that when Justices make decisions about political matters they undermine democratic legitimacy to the system and we should be careful what we wish for. For hundreds of years Courts took the view that into these areas they should not tread but that is no longer the view. The actions of the American Supreme Court are a good example of the hazards of that.
    They argue that the Executive needs to be constrained by the Rule of Law. Not Parliament.
    I honestly can't tell whether @DavidL is being sarcastic about "fuss" and "hysteria," but I am quite happy to get, and be called, fussy and hysterical about the issues he mentions.

    Parliamentary Sovereignty has the precise and technical (and boring) meaning that statutes duly enacted by the Crown in Parliament override everything else. That might sound like a piece of pedantic twattery, like people who know that the immaculate conception means something different from the virgin birth, but it is critically important because people misunderstand it as the HYUFD Doctrine - Boris has got an 80 seat majority so he can do what the fuck he likes till 2024 innit - and they think this insane, democratic tyranny doctrine is the bedrock of our constitution just because they have applied the wrong name to it.

    Actually the system is symbiotic and feedback-based and to assert Parliamentary Sovereignty impliedly also asserts the sovereignty of the Courts: Parliament-made law is supreme, and so is the right of the courts to interpret and enforce it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,959
    Nigelb said:
    Johson wants to do AUSTRALIAN STYLE everything but a pandemic response.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,376
    eristdoof said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.
    The fact that the UK has the rule that postal votes have to be delivered before the polling station closes, does not mean that this is the rule everywhere.

    In Australia they allow postal votes count as long as they are postmarked for that day. A constituency has to also wait for overseas and military votes. This means that like in the USA many seats are provisionally declared before the final counts are published, but in a few close seats it can take up to a couple of weeks before the winner is announced.

    The point is that the rules are not the same everywhere, and that each US state should be allowed to carry out the rules regarding absentee and mail in votes that apply in that state, and not be overruled by the SC.
    I find it very difficult to have any sympathy with anyone who has a postal vote yet leaves it so late as to not be delivered by election day. Or even making sure relevant signatures are included. Especially as there is Early voting available to either vote or drop it off to.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,080

    alex_ said:

    It really is rubbish isn't it! If this was Panama or Bolivia the US would be on it's high horse, complaining about 'lack of democracy'.

    From reading about some of the procedures in place, i get the impression that in many respects the US is far more advanced in the actions it takes to prevent voter fraud than in many other countries. But this is necessary because they have far more partisan control over the electoral process and potential for fraudulent activity than in many other countries.
    But it is a partisan response to partisan voter fraud. "We call out your perceived voter fraud, but our voter fraud can stand".

    Gore v Bush, state by state until Trump gets the College looks quite likely- which is industrial scale voter fraud.
    How would that work? Bear in mind, while in some States the electors have to vote in accordance with the instructions of the Secretary of State for that state, in others they can vote for whoever the hell they like.

    So actually, the only effect might be to have the Secretary of State/Electors ignore the official figures ordered by the Supreme Court and vote for Biden anyway.

    Would cause chaos, but would be amusing since the electoral college is the only reason Trump got to 1700 PA in the first place.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,156
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.

    Don't get me wrong, it is obvious that the willingness of the SC to interfere in trivial matters like this is a menace to what is laughingly called American democracy, not a bulwark of it. The inconsistency of their decisions make them look partisan and selective. The constitutional base for this involvement is highly suspect. But I am wondering if I have missed something about this particular decision that makes it so egregious.
    Thanks for that, David. It's my opinion too and I was wondering if I was odd for so thinking.

    If you want to vote, get the ballot in the post in plenty of time or get your arse down to the polling station. Relying on a postmark seems fraught with danger and difficulty. Why take the chance?
    Yes, if it gets to the day and you haven't got around to it you should stand in line and drop it in the ballot box. I take @Alistair's point that this is not the way that the rules have been up to now but that has simply contributed to the farce where votes are still wandering in a week or two after election day, often from foreign service personnel. It's ridiculous but so much of the American system is.
    In Pennsylvania it is not allowed to deliver mail in ballots by hand. Although it appears that, unlike in the UK, receipt of a mail-in ballot doesn't prevent you from voting in person.

    But i think a lot of the underlying concern relates to some of the rationale behind the decisions. And what it potentially means for a post election Supreme Court fight.

    eg. there are apparently 18 states which take the "count based on post mark date". Could any and all of them potentially be challengeable if one party suddenly realises it could make a difference?
    As I said I agree with @Alistair that the role the SC play in these decisions seems inconsistent, irrational, to have no clear basis in law and to be partisan to boot. The threat of the Court getting involved in determining the result of this election Bush-v-Gore style is real.

    I can't help reflecting that those who profess such a love of the rule of law overriding democratic decisions really should reflect on this a bit more. This is where giving excessive powers to courts to overrule democratic decisions leads. Its not a path we want to go down.
    Bit of a straw man argument, that.
    Who is arguing for giving our courts powers beyond those they currently exercise ? The pressure for change seems to be very much in the other direction from our current administration.
    Just look at the fuss over the Internal Markets Bill because it might result in a Minister breaking an international agreement in the future, the hysteria about trying to limit judicial review, the decision of the Supreme Court in the prorogation of Parliament case. Many people argue on these threads and elsewhere that our political class needs to be constrained by the law, ruled by the law and restricted by the law in what they can do. The sovereignty of Parliament is just a bit too wild for them, a democratic dictatorship.

    My concern is that when Justices make decisions about political matters they undermine democratic legitimacy to the system and we should be careful what we wish for. For hundreds of years Courts took the view that into these areas they should not tread but that is no longer the view. The actions of the American Supreme Court are a good example of the hazards of that.
    No, what you’re arguing for is that government not be bound by law at all.
    The problem is that binding the government by the constitution means that controlling the constitution becomes government.

    So in the US, they are, in effect, electing the Supreme Court.

    I would argue that a flexible constitutional settlement, regularly updated is what is required. Which would reduce the amount of "interpretational law" that the Supreme Court is required to do.

    Which is what the US used to have - Lincoln didn't find some judges who would rule that due to an interpretation of the constitution re interstate commerce bounced at an angle off the right to privacy, that slavery had never existed.

    He got the 13th Amendment passed.

    As James Anthony Froude observed - "Constitutions are made for men, not men for constitutions".
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,040
    Presumably he is the Great Chieftain o' the Puddin' Race.
    The Courier is a fantastic paper, it will have several stories of this calibre on a good day. There is always much that is newsworthy happening in Dundee and its surrounding areas.
    Although for a true taste of the absurdly parochial delivered with excessive solemnity the St Andrews Citizen is hard to beat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,156

    eristdoof said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    Just an astonishing decision.

    They really are begging Biden to pack the court.

    Maybe I am not understanding this. The decision of the Court is that votes that are date stamped the date of the election (3rd) but don't actually arrive until after the election should not be counted?

    That is surely the same decision as we would make in this country. Votes that are in the post but do not arrive until after polling day don't count because they arrive too late. Of course in this country the counting would be finished before the postie was out on his rounds.
    The fact that the UK has the rule that postal votes have to be delivered before the polling station closes, does not mean that this is the rule everywhere.

    In Australia they allow postal votes count as long as they are postmarked for that day. A constituency has to also wait for overseas and military votes. This means that like in the USA many seats are provisionally declared before the final counts are published, but in a few close seats it can take up to a couple of weeks before the winner is announced.

    The point is that the rules are not the same everywhere, and that each US state should be allowed to carry out the rules regarding absentee and mail in votes that apply in that state, and not be overruled by the SC.
    I find it very difficult to have any sympathy with anyone who has a postal vote yet leaves it so late as to not be delivered by election day. Or even making sure relevant signatures are included. Especially as there is Early voting available to either vote or drop it off to.
    The problem is, for your first point, attacks on the ability of the Postal Service in the US to deliver the mail. Hence the staggering amount of early voting.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,190
    Times: Coronavirus survivors may be at risk of lasting cognitive damage, according to a study that found that in the worst cases the infection can cause mental decline equivalent to an 8.5-point fall in IQ or the brain ageing ten years.

    The “brain fog” reported by many people weeks and months after their recovering from the virus may be a symptom of more serious cognitive deficits, scientists have said.

    Research involving 84,285 people who had recovered from confirmed or suspected Covid-19 found that damage to the brain had happened to varying extents, depending upon the severity of the infection. However, more work is needed to identify how long this lasts.

    “This is a large enough difference that as an individual you would notice an impact on the ability to cope with your normal job and everyday life,” Dr Hampshire said. “The results align with the ‘brain fog’ reported by many people who, even months after recovery, say they are unable to concentrate on work or focus how they did before.”

    The team, from Imperial College, the University of Cambridge, the University of Chicago and King’s College London, also found that compared to people who had not had the virus survivors scored poorly on tests for logic and the meaning of words, spatial orientation, maintaining attention and processing their emotions.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,198
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:
    Johson wants to do AUSTRALIAN STYLE everything but a pandemic response.
    In a similar vein...
    https://twitter.com/MarkLevineNYC/status/1320394764286648324
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,565

    kjh said:

    Thank you. Looks interesting.
    The Florida one is good as the votes are recorded by affiliation, so you can see how things are progressing.

    I don't quite understand it though, as it says that there are more Republican voters than Democrat registered ones, but if you look at the "Modelled Party Vote Share" then the Democrats are ahead there instead.

    But you can see a trend in there that the Republicans are closing the gap, it was 35%-54% and is now 40%-49%, I guess as more rural votes are counted after the urban ones.
    It is going to take time to look at it and understand it. I could not find South Carolina. Reason?

    Texas don't have party registration so their rely on their modelling and I have no idea if it is any good so have no idea if the chart means anything especially as it is giving daily figures.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Germany: lack of personnel in ICUs. "We have a dramatic understaffing," said Uwe Janssens, president of the German Interdisciplinary Association for Intensive Care and Emergency Medicine (DIVI), according to the Funke media group. There are enough beds and additional breathing apparatus in the rooms. intensive care units, but that alone is useless "if we do not have staff to attend to patients," he warned and stated that here lies "the much bigger problem." According to Janssens, in Germany there is a shortage of 3,500 to 4,000 specialists for intensive care units.
This discussion has been closed.