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The main debate message for Trump’s opponents is that there has to be a massive Biden victory – the

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited September 2020 in General
The main debate message for Trump’s opponents is that there has to be a massive Biden victory – the bigger the margin the better – politicalbetting.com

Good debate multi-shot from CNN pic.twitter.com/FS7BAmBWPS

Read the full story here

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    E pluribus unum.
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    It's nice to be first occasionally.

    I agree with David Frum.
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    "We don't have this under control at the moment"

    No you don't.

    Perhaps you should consider giving Tegnell another call?
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    congratulations to TheScreamingEagles for coming first! And second!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    geoffw said:

    congratulations to TheScreamingEagles for coming first! And second!

    Outrageous!
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    RobD said:

    geoffw said:

    congratulations to TheScreamingEagles for coming first! And second!

    Outrageous!
    Sore loser!

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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561
    Was that a mail-in post from TSE? If so, should be discounted. SAD!
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    Was that a mail-in post from TSE? If so, should be discounted. SAD!

    I was uploading a different thread and well wordpress told me Mike was about to publish a new piece.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    Insider trading.
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    geoffw said:

    Insider trading.

    It is called 'front running'.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561

    Was that a mail-in post from TSE? If so, should be discounted. SAD!

    I was uploading a different thread and well wordpress told me Mike was about to publish a new piece.
    Right place, right time!
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited September 2020

    Scott_xP said:
    Simple three-tier system? So Johnson will probably introduce it at level 1.8.
    The devolved Governments will then each publish their own version of the scheme, but with various minor tweaks so that they can demonstrate their autonomy/stick two fingers up at Westminster/stick two fingers up at the Tories/be plain stubborn, and we shall still have four slightly different sets of rules and everyone wailing about (a) how confusing they supposedly are and (b) why the restrictions in their part of the UK are marginally stricter that those in one or more of the other three.

    That said, some consistency from one end of England to the other would be helpful, at least.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,159
    edited September 2020
    https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1311409255912820737

    His focus group vid has had 1m views in six hours.

    Luntz thinks it was so bad it will put people off voting. Which is exactly what Trump wanted. Job done.
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    15th
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1311409255912820737

    His focus group vid has had 1m views in six hours.

    Luntz thinks it was so bad it will put people off voting. Which is exactly what Trump wanted. Job done.

    I would agree on that. Everyone knows Trump is a thug. And I say that as someone who would vote for him.

    But Biden lost more, namely the claim to a higher ground. Go to 3:23 and listen to what is being said.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

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    dixiedean said:
    I hope we both win our league matches this weekend.

    Then the Merseyside derby will be just like the 80s with Liverpool and Everton fighting it out at the top of the table.

    What a derby that will be.
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    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle
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    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    Rotten fruit thrown from a socially-distanced, masked up audience
    Wiring up the candidates to an electrical supply with shocks for interruptions
    Trap door directly underneath both stages for the worst offences?
  • Options
    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Yes but if it had been Boris now
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    CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited September 2020

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    How is this relevant to the point I made?
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."
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    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Is this relevant to the point I made?
    No but I thought you would like to see it

    And Good Night everyone
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561
    edited September 2020
    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Yes but if it had been Boris now
    Well he made the rule so that's another matter.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    err true. The latest Trafalgar has Trump down 2 in Michigan, so down in all 3 even with Trafalgar.
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    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Yes but if it had been Boris now
    Obviously totally wrong for Corbyn to be breaking the rules and he should apologise.

    If it was Johnson Philip would find a way to argue it was ok
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    err true. The latest Trafalgar has Trump down 2 in Michigan, so down in all 3 even with Trafalgar.
    I was looking at this but tell me if something new has come out:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Ah thanks. I was going by RCP. It obviously hasn't updated.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561

    Rotten fruit thrown from a socially-distanced, masked up audience
    Wiring up the candidates to an electrical supply with shocks for interruptions
    Trap door directly underneath both stages for the worst offences?
    A bucket of green goo ready to drop on them from above would be more fun imho.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    MrEd said:

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    err true. The latest Trafalgar has Trump down 2 in Michigan, so down in all 3 even with Trafalgar.
    I was looking at this but tell me if something new has come out:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html
    Try Nate Silver's 538, it's more up to date
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Ah thanks. I was going by RCP. It obviously hasn't updated.
    No worries - easily done.

    Yesterday I reacted to a Trump tweet posted on here, praising Biden's debating prowess - only later did I spot that the tweet was from 2012.
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    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623

    Rotten fruit thrown from a socially-distanced, masked up audience
    Wiring up the candidates to an electrical supply with shocks for interruptions
    Trap door directly underneath both stages for the worst offences?
    A bucket of green goo ready to drop on them from above would be more fun imho.
    Welcome to the Debate Committee, we really like your ideas!
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    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Nine including the photographer. But what I'm baffled about is how the Sun got hold of this photo - one of Jezza's "friends" must have delivered it.

    Or maybe it was Starmer taking the photo - they all live in Islington after all?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Nine including the photographer. But what I'm baffled about is how the Sun got hold of this photo - one of Jezza's "friends" must have delivered it.

    Or maybe it was Starmer taking the photo - they all live in Islington after all?
    Nine?! To the gallows with them.
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    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    It might be that Trump made a tactical error by not allowing Biden to speak in full sentences, because Biden isn't very good at that.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Ah thanks. I was going by RCP. It obviously hasn't updated.
    No worries - easily done.

    Yesterday I reacted to a Trump tweet posted on here, praising Biden's debating prowess - only later did I spot that the tweet was from 2012.
    Haha, That would have been funny.
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    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Ah thanks. I was going by RCP. It obviously hasn't updated.
    "Err thanks" would be more appropriate.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    err true. The latest Trafalgar has Trump down 2 in Michigan, so down in all 3 even with Trafalgar.
    I was looking at this but tell me if something new has come out:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/mi/michigan_trump_vs_biden-6761.html
    Try Nate Silver's 538, it's more up to date
    Thanks Olly.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    It's a bit mean and I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn.

    He is having dinner at his home. For Christ's sake, give the man some slack.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,521

    RobD said:

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    Hard to get worked up over six vs eight to be honest.
    Nine including the photographer. But what I'm baffled about is how the Sun got hold of this photo - one of Jezza's "friends" must have delivered it.

    Or maybe it was Starmer taking the photo - they all live in Islington after all?
    Jezza is yesterdays man. Who cares?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561
    Question: Where will Trump run to, to avoid jail, if he loses the election?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,365
    I think @MaxPB was talking about fusion earlier.

    This is an interesting thread with links to interesting articles:
    https://twitter.com/TEGNicholas/status/1311282961581473793
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940

    dixiedean said:
    I hope we both win our league matches this weekend.

    Then the Merseyside derby will be just like the 80s with Liverpool and Everton fighting it out at the top of the table.

    What a derby that will be.
    And the prospect of mass unemployment too.
    Happy days!
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    Elsewhere I have heard 2019 described as the Britain's (or, at any rate, England and Wales') first American election, in terms of how the left-right split was reflected in the distribution of seats.

    In fact, I don't think we're nearly so far down the Culture Wars rabbit hole (the scale of America's racial divisions and the baleful influence of the religious right aren't reflected here,) but you can see where the idea comes from. If one had data from all Parliamentary constituencies on just four metrics - the proportion of non-white voters, average age of the electorate, the local median household income and presence or absence of a university - then it oughtn't to be too difficult to construct a formula that could be used to predict electoral outcomes with a fair degree of accuracy.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    edited September 2020
    https://twitter.com/OldNorthStPol/status/1311285506383187969

    If you make the following assumptions:

    i) All those who vote in a primary then vote for that party
    ii) All remaining GOP vote GOP, all remaining Dems vote Dem
    iii) 50-50 split on remaining Una -

    gives a 72-28 absentee split to the Dems (Thus far)
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    Jezza was just breaking the law in a limited and specific way.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903

    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    That looks like a decent dinner party to me. My compliments to the hostess.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Paging @HYUFD
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    Elsewhere I have heard 2019 described as the Britain's (or, at any rate, England and Wales') first American election, in terms of how the left-right split was reflected in the distribution of seats.

    In fact, I don't think we're nearly so far down the Culture Wars rabbit hole (the scale of America's racial divisions and the baleful influence of the religious right aren't reflected here,) but you can see where the idea comes from. If one had data from all Parliamentary constituencies on just four metrics - the proportion of non-white voters, average age of the electorate, the local median household income and presence or absence of a university - then it oughtn't to be too difficult to construct a formula that could be used to predict electoral outcomes with a fair degree of accuracy.
    I would agree with that but the trend is the same - as a generalisation, left-leaning university-educated middle class types despising the outdated views of the proles. It's why I am sceptical Labour under SKS will come back to power any time soon. While SKS talks a good game about patriotism, a lot of voters believe the bulk of the party despise them (which is probably true in varying degrees).
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    The leaks about migrants are exactly what I expected from the Tories. They're not people, they're cattle

    A late night tweet for you Horse

    And have a good night's rest

    Good night folks


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1311420474660925444?s=09
    That looks like a decent dinner party to me. My compliments to the hostess.
    Jezza doesn't look like he was enjoying.
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    I see the Tories are now pro law and order again, have I got that right?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,365
    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    “Everyone knows” that Trump is a bully, a liar and a crook, with a contempt for democracy, and deeply authoritarian instincts.

    I think the debate tended to reinforce that view rather than the one you quote.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903
    Apologies I see someone has already tried to invoke the Guru of Epping Forest!
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    I totally get that.

    In fact, I've posted similar things myself.

    However, the moment President Trump calls into question the legitimacy of the electoral system, and refuses to rule out a peaceful transfer of power, then - as far as I'm concerned - he has overstepped the mark.

    But he's gone beyond that. He's called for people to join his army to police the election, rather than tasking the FEC with ensuring that the rules are followed. And that's resulted in scenes like this one, in Virginia.

    I was no Obama fan. As far as I'm concerned, he did very little in eight years in the White House. But Obama/Biden did not weaken the foundations of American democracy. I had no doubt that if Romney had won the election, then Obama and Biden would have tootled off out the White House.

    That there should even be any doubt with Trump should concern anyone who cares about America.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940

    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    Elsewhere I have heard 2019 described as the Britain's (or, at any rate, England and Wales') first American election, in terms of how the left-right split was reflected in the distribution of seats.

    In fact, I don't think we're nearly so far down the Culture Wars rabbit hole (the scale of America's racial divisions and the baleful influence of the religious right aren't reflected here,) but you can see where the idea comes from. If one had data from all Parliamentary constituencies on just four metrics - the proportion of non-white voters, average age of the electorate, the local median household income and presence or absence of a university - then it oughtn't to be too difficult to construct a formula that could be used to predict electoral outcomes with a fair degree of accuracy.
    Although you could do that pretty well in the fifties.
    Working class 2-1 Labour Tory.
    Middle and above 9-1 Tory Labour.
    Approximately.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903
    @MrEd

    Avoid RCP - it’s a shambolic operation. It misses polls and those it does accommodate it frequently accommodates late.

    I suspect they are short of cash. 538 is quicker off the mark. They seem to add polls before office hours Eastern Time, which is impressive.
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    dodradedodrade Posts: 595

    https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1311409255912820737

    His focus group vid has had 1m views in six hours.

    Luntz thinks it was so bad it will put people off voting. Which is exactly what Trump wanted. Job done.


    I'm a bit baffled by all the faux outrage, it's not as if Trump suddenly acted out of character. The House of Commons has had similarly bad tempered debates without everyone proclaiming the death of democracy.

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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561

    Apologies I see someone has already tried to invoke the Guru of Epping Forest!
    I am sure he will be on soon to explain how Rasmussen's 8pt Biden lead confirms that Donald is going to win in November.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    538 has some post debate polling from Ipsos:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-biden-debate-poll/

    Basically, very little changed, except Trump's favourables got a tiny bit worse at the margin.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    They'll get Grayling to organise them.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/OldNorthStPol/status/1311285506383187969

    If you make the following assumptions:

    i) All those who vote in a primary then vote for that party
    ii) All remaining GOP vote GOP, all remaining Dems vote Dem
    iii) 50-50 split on remaining Una -

    gives a 72-28 absentee split to the Dems (Thus far)

    Breakdown of the NC voter base:

    https://www.ncdemography.org/2020/08/13/who-are-north-carolinas-7-million-registered-voters/
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    Hmm Think I floated the ferries idea here on pb a while back.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,561
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm Think I floated the ferries idea here on pb a while back.

    I bet you thought your idea had sunk without trace, eh?
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    Elsewhere I have heard 2019 described as the Britain's (or, at any rate, England and Wales') first American election, in terms of how the left-right split was reflected in the distribution of seats.

    In fact, I don't think we're nearly so far down the Culture Wars rabbit hole (the scale of America's racial divisions and the baleful influence of the religious right aren't reflected here,) but you can see where the idea comes from. If one had data from all Parliamentary constituencies on just four metrics - the proportion of non-white voters, average age of the electorate, the local median household income and presence or absence of a university - then it oughtn't to be too difficult to construct a formula that could be used to predict electoral outcomes with a fair degree of accuracy.
    I would agree with that but the trend is the same - as a generalisation, left-leaning university-educated middle class types despising the outdated views of the proles. It's why I am sceptical Labour under SKS will come back to power any time soon. While SKS talks a good game about patriotism, a lot of voters believe the bulk of the party despise them (which is probably true in varying degrees).
    And the UK electorate is slightly older and significantly whiter than that of the United States. Taken in combination with the crippling effect of the SNP's dominance in Scotland, Labour has a much steeper hill to climb than the Democrats do in the American system, where they can put their candidate for head of government into what's essentially a straightforward two-horse race with the right-wing candidate, and are already in control of one chamber of the legislature.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Paging @HYUFD
    Yes, 1.6% Biden lead in Michigan so it looks at the moment then that Biden will win the presidency but still close enough for the lead to change again in the last few weeks.

    https://twitter.com/RobertCahaly/status/1311327243986243585?s=20

    In any case I have never been a Trump supporter, I have always said I would have voted for Hillary in 2016 and for Biden now if I were American but Republican for Congress.

    I am not a Trump supporter like Mr Ed, though that is a view he is entitled to, I have just said and remain of the view Trump can still win even if the odds favour Biden
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903
    The biggest controversy at the Corbyn dinner party is that the fragrant hostess is serving white wine and what appears to be a sparkling wine of some variety. It’s red wine weather, and it looks like red wine food. I would have rolled out a bold Shiraz or some such.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940
    edited September 2020
    MrEd said:

    PS just for people on here, a description that I think sums up the appeal of Trump to many Americans. Come to think of it, some of it resembles here....

    "It’s no secret that the ruling class in America despises the country class. If you’re one of those people who don’t live in coastal cities and subscribe to the same worldview as the elite aspirants hoping for a job at a billionaire-backed NGO or an internship that might lead to a job at McKinsey then you’re a deplorable, a CHUD, and definitely racist and whatever bad things are happening to you, your family, and your inland town are your just deserts.

    One of Trump’s main functions and biggest appeals is that he exposes the occupational elites that are credentialed but not expert in much of anything. Everyone knows it. Imposter syndrome is rampant. And Trump preys on their insecurities which is what provokes such outrageous reactions from his enemies. But a lot of Americans who live in interior America and get unglamorous jobs at slowly declining wages, raise their families want nothing more than to be left alone by the credentialed but unaccomplished strivers who hate them. For those people, Trump is their champion."

    Grayson Perry's excellent programme on C4+1 now, his big American road trip I am watching after watching the 2 hour TE Lawrence doc on C5, is a great illustration of the cultural divides in America now and to some extent here too and whatever happens in America in November they are not going to go away but will likely shape presidential elections for years to come
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/OldNorthStPol/status/1311285506383187969

    If you make the following assumptions:

    i) All those who vote in a primary then vote for that party
    ii) All remaining GOP vote GOP, all remaining Dems vote Dem
    iii) 50-50 split on remaining Una -

    gives a 72-28 absentee split to the Dems (Thus far)

    Pulpstar said:

    https://twitter.com/OldNorthStPol/status/1311285506383187969

    If you make the following assumptions:

    i) All those who vote in a primary then vote for that party
    ii) All remaining GOP vote GOP, all remaining Dems vote Dem
    iii) 50-50 split on remaining Una -

    gives a 72-28 absentee split to the Dems (Thus far)

    Completely passed me by that NC had for all intents and purposes open primaries.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,365
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm Think I floated the ferries idea here on pb a while back.

    Dickens had something along those lines, too.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,903
    HYUFD said:

    MrEd said:

    Err not true - Trafalgar has Trump ahead in MI, at least according to RCP. It's got Trump down 2% in PA and 3% in WI, which are not exactly insurmountable.

    And Quinnipac in GA slightly against all the other GA polls.

    But go with them if you want....

    RCP has last week's Trafalgar MI poll (which 538 also has, showing a 1% Trump lead).

    This week's Trafalgar MI poll is on 538 (Biden +2).
    Paging @HYUFD
    Yes, 1.6% Biden lead in Michigan so it looks at the moment then that Biden will win the presidency but still close enough for the lead to change again in the last few weeks.

    https://twitter.com/RobertCahaly/status/1311327243986243585?s=20

    In any case I have never been a Trump supporter, I have always said I would have voted for Hillary in 2016 and for Biden now if I were American but Republican for Congress.

    I am not a Trump supporter like Mr Ed, though that is a view he is entitled to, I have just said and remain of the view Trump can still win even if the odds favour Biden
    Realise that. Thanks for the reply.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,365
    This does not look like good news for the AZN. vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/psychlyst1/status/1311434375918051328
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    rcs1000 said:

    538 has some post debate polling from Ipsos:

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-biden-debate-poll/

    Basically, very little changed, except Trump's favourables got a tiny bit worse at the margin.

    Which is bad for Trump: he really needed a breaks through. Every day where nothing changes is a good one for Biden.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    edited September 2020

    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
    The fundamental problem is that they have implied for years that Brexit will magicaĺly stop the flow.
    It is, and always was utter bollocks.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    Nigelb said:

    This does not look like good news for the AZN. vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/psychlyst1/status/1311434375918051328

    Trial was paused on the 8th, it takes the US FDA till the 30th that they decide they need this info ?
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    dixiedean said:

    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
    The fundamental problem is that they have implied for years that Brexit will magicaĺly stop the flow.
    It is, and always was utter bollocks.
    I don't recall Boris or anyone similar saying that.

    Farage did but he is a twunt and should be ignored.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940

    dixiedean said:

    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
    The fundamental problem is that they have implied for years that Brexit will magicaĺly stop the flow.
    It is, and always was utter bollocks.
    I don't recall Boris or anyone similar saying that.

    Farage did but he is a twunt and should be ignored.
    Th

    dixiedean said:

    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
    The fundamental problem is that they have implied for years that Brexit will magicaĺly stop the flow.
    It is, and always was utter bollocks.
    I don't recall Boris or anyone similar saying that.

    Farage did but he is a twunt and should be ignored.
    100% correct.
    Hence my careful use of the word "implied".
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    Aargh, American punditry is so terrible, they never learn. They are literally unable to perceive any probability below 25%.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/2020-election-models-trump-odds-biden/index.html
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    dixiedean said:

    They're wrestling with the fundamental problem - which is, of course, that the flow of boat people won't stop but that the bulk of the electorate in general, and the Tory-supporting electorate in particular, doesn't want them - and thrashing around desperately for a solution.

    I can only assume either that the French are sufficiently determined to be rid of the problem themselves that they're invulnerable to bribery; or that the bribes that the UK Government have offered them have been deemed insufficient; or that the Government has been too daft to offer the French Government cash and/or other sweeteners in the first place.

    Leaving aside the moral considerations, I'm not sure of the practicalities of effectively capturing the boat people and sticking them all back on larger boats - but prison hulks do at least have the benefit of not having to transport those aboard many thousands of miles to a remote volcanic rock in the South Atlantic.
    The fundamental problem is that they have implied for years that Brexit will magicaĺly stop the flow.
    It is, and always was utter bollocks.
    I don't recall Boris or anyone similar saying that.

    Farage did but he is a twunt and should be ignored.
    Boris frequently said that the only way we could ‘take back control’ of immigration was to vote Leave. Many voters intuitively conflated people crossing the Channel with free movement from Europe and the Leave campaign knowingly played on that misconception.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902

    Aargh, American punditry is so terrible, they never learn. They are literally unable to perceive any probability below 25%.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/2020-election-models-trump-odds-biden/index.html

    Analysis by Chris Cillizza

    But 2016 did happen. And the models were wrong.
    On November 8, 2016 (Election Day), the 538 model gave Trump a 28.4% chance of winning.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    https://twitter.com/Johnnypapa64/status/1311399354083803137

    Just on his way to a dinner party no doubt.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Pulpstar said:

    Aargh, American punditry is so terrible, they never learn. They are literally unable to perceive any probability below 25%.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/2020-election-models-trump-odds-biden/index.html

    Analysis by Chris Cillizza

    But 2016 did happen. And the models were wrong.
    On November 8, 2016 (Election Day), the 538 model gave Trump a 28.4% chance of winning.
    Cillizza used to be at the Washington Post. He has a serious political journalism pedigree, even if clearly left of (the US) centre.
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    dodrade said:

    https://twitter.com/CNBC/status/1311409255912820737

    His focus group vid has had 1m views in six hours.

    Luntz thinks it was so bad it will put people off voting. Which is exactly what Trump wanted. Job done.


    I'm a bit baffled by all the faux outrage, it's not as if Trump suddenly acted out of character. The House of Commons has had similarly bad tempered debates without everyone proclaiming the death of democracy.

    There's a lot of force in this point. The media narrative has been "how shocking". Have they met the candidates? Trump's default is blustering aggression, and Biden has zero respect for him on a personal or political level. Neither man's strength lies in policy detail or extremely articulate rhetoric, to say the least. So who was expecting an object lesson in the Socratic method?

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    Pulpstar said:

    Aargh, American punditry is so terrible, they never learn. They are literally unable to perceive any probability below 25%.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/2020-election-models-trump-odds-biden/index.html

    Analysis by Chris Cillizza

    But 2016 did happen. And the models were wrong.
    On November 8, 2016 (Election Day), the 538 model gave Trump a 28.4% chance of winning.
    It's just an astonishing feat of obtuseness. How can you not learn?

    1) October, 2016: See the models showing a 25% probability, write articles as if this means "basically impossible"
    2) November, 2016: Say the models were wrong and declare data journalism dead
    1) October, 2020: See the models showing a 25% probability, write articles as if this means "basically impossible"
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Aargh, American punditry is so terrible, they never learn. They are literally unable to perceive any probability below 25%.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/30/politics/2020-election-models-trump-odds-biden/index.html

    Analysis by Chris Cillizza

    But 2016 did happen. And the models were wrong.
    On November 8, 2016 (Election Day), the 538 model gave Trump a 28.4% chance of winning.
    Cillizza used to be at the Washington Post. He has a serious political journalism pedigree, even if clearly left of (the US) centre.
    I don't really understand how it works but to be a "serious political journalist" in the US apparently requires you to be stunningly obtuse. I think it's because they have these kind of unspoken rules to be a Serious Person like needing to "both-sides" everything, and you can only follow them consistently if you're more committed to following the unspoken rules than figuring out what's going on.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    edited October 2020
    I'm not sure the courts are going to come to Trump's rescue.

    A few days back I noted this story about Wisconsin ballots :

    https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status/1310278465325641728

    Judges were going to stop the ballots being counted !

    The MAGAs were very excited ...

    https://twitter.com/waltrines/status/1310331062476824579

    Today the 7th Circuit with *checks notes* 5 Reagen, 1 Bush-41, 1 Bush-43, 4 Trump, 1 Clinton and 1 Obama judge issued this ruling

    https://twitter.com/AP/status/1311083637396434946

    “Neither group contends that the new deadlines established by the district court would violate the constitutional rights of any of their members,” the appeals court said.

    Sounds like the sort of judges and reasoning that might appeal to a certain Gorsuch should it go any higher...
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,449
    "Neanderthal genes increase risk of serious Covid-19, study claims

    Strand of DNA inherited by modern humans is linked to likelihood of falling severely ill"

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/sep/30/neanderthal-genes-increase-risk-of-serious-covid-19-study-claims
This discussion has been closed.