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To me the day’s biggest political development was the re-emergence of Ed Miliband – politicalbetting

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 14 in General
To me the day’s biggest political development was the re-emergence of Ed Miliband – politicalbetting.com

He was standing in for Keir Starmer who is self-isolating.

Read the full story here

Comments

  • CiceroCicero Posts: 484
    Devastation of Johnson: he was totally minced by Ed Miliband. Extraordinary, and surely the Tory Party must be wondering whether they shouldn't be getting rid of Bozo.... cause if they dont, the party itself willl be the next thing to be minced...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
    77.

    lol.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,473
    I like Ed and always hoped he'd be a hit, but he doesn't do the feigned outrage very well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 76,595
    Ed Miliband for Shadow Chancellor replacing Dodds, Yvette Cooper replacing Nandy as Shadow Foreign Secretary and Thomas Symonds remaining as Shadow Home Secretary would be a stronger top team for Starmer
  • FPT
    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533
    No denying Labour strategy is pretty flawless right now, nicely-executed attack while keeping Kier off Brexit, textbook deployment of the Quarantine Manoeuvre
  • FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
  • FPT
    dixiedean said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ben Spencer's line was correct in my opinion
    - This is legislation we could introduce in extremis. We're not in that extremis and it harms our negotiations with the EU.

    We've been in extremis for the past 4 years.

    The EU have weaponised NI for 4 years. This is disarming the bomb.
    You're unhinged !
    Necessity is the mother of invention. The EU feel they have no necessity to compromise, they've turned NI into a bomb to hold over the UK to blackmail us into doing whatever they want.

    Enough is enough!
    Not quite there yet - with your spoof of SeanT's late-night bibulous rants - but a good effort.
    I'm bloody serious. I've said the same thing sober or anything else for years now.
    It’s still daft. And, frankly, bloody offensive. NI suffered decades of bombing and violence which it has taken years to move in from and slowly begin to build a peaceful province and future. And now this is being put at risk because of this lying government’s casual disregard for the agreement put in place to achieve that, as the NI Chief Justice has warned. A province which knows what disregard for the rule of law really means, knows that this is not a game, j own that it has a coat in blood and lives lost and lives ruined and endless heartache is being used by Johnson to cover his incompetence and lies and his little helpers then dare accuse the EU of being like a bomb which needs defusing. It is utterly despicable.
    That is what should happen with NI now. Just fudge the border issues, like the Irish and British were planning pre-2017.

    Neither a border in the Irish Sea, nor on the Irish border.
    Not compatible with a hard Brexit then.
    Absolutely compatible.

    Hard Brexit, soft border.
    Quite obviously not. A hard border means customs, either on land or sea.
    Yes so have customs. My solution is quite simple: customs with self-declaration.

    Just get businesses to self-declare what customs they owe and get them to pay it and move on. Exactly like businesses already self-declare what VAT, PAYE and other taxes they owe. Just rely upon self-declarations. Businesses deal with it in the way they already deal with a plethora of other taxes and no border posts because security of the island is more important than the risk of people not declaring their taxes properly.
    Presumably we could trust people to fiddle the figures in a limited and specific way?
    Businesses are trusted to declare their accounts and declare their taxes routinely anyway. Given the security considerations in NI what makes the integrity of ensuring there isn't any fraud with regards to customs more important than keeping the peace in Northern Ireland?

    If people commit fraud and are found guilty of doing so they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But that happens already anyway if you cook the books with regards to VAT or any other self declaration that already needs to happen anyway.
  • It's funny but like live football you need the crowd to make a division interesting. Maybe someone could dub some background HoC noise over the next set of votes.
  • FPT

    Having lied to the electorate, Johnson now needs a deal more than ever. If he gets one the lie may be forgotten. If he doesn’t, it won’t be. Neither will it be forgiven.

    That is the bizarre thing. His response on discovering that he's completely boxed himself (and, more to the point, all of us) in, with a looming deadline, is to double down and box himself in even more. He could get away with it with the original 'do or die' deadline by simply ignoring the fact that he missed it. He got away with caving in to the EU's opening position on the WA by branding it as a triumph. Both of those were abject political failures, but without any immediate real-world consequences; he just needed to keep his supporters onside and his MPs pretending to be impressed. How the hell is he going to escape from this mess, which will have big real-world consequences in just 12 weeks or so? He's left himself with so little time - in fact it's already too late - that the only conceivable way out even in the short term is to do a super-fast deal with the EU which extends the transition period, in practice if not in name. So trashing the trust that would help with that is, err, brave...
    Mr Nabavi he didn't really miss the "do or die" deadline. The Withdrawal Agreement was signed and ready to go before the deadline, no further negotiations happened afterwards. The Withdrawal that occured on 31/01/20 could have occured on 31/10/19 with the exact same Agreement, the only issue is the prior Parliament rejected ratifying the agreement in time.

    The solution now is not to do a deal to extend transition, it is to end transition with or without a deal. If there are problems in the New Year then deal with them and fix them, its not the end of the world.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,473

    First and always a fan of Ed Miliband !

    He's always had a strong intellect and a solid moral compass - what stepping back from the front line for a few years has enabled him to do is to grow into himself and become more comfortable in his own skin.

    He looked as uncomfortable as ever to me, and I quite like him
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    No of course not. A bill doesn't become a money bill just because it involves the spending of some money.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,403
    Cicero said:

    Devastation of Johnson: he was totally minced by Ed Miliband. Extraordinary, and surely the Tory Party must be wondering whether they shouldn't be getting rid of Bozo.... cause if they dont, the party itself willl be the next thing to be minced...

    So devastated that the vote passed with a thumping majority! :lol:

    Reality has a funny way of correcting lefty fantasies.
  • Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 3,302

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280

    FPT

    Having lied to the electorate, Johnson now needs a deal more than ever. If he gets one the lie may be forgotten. If he doesn’t, it won’t be. Neither will it be forgiven.

    That is the bizarre thing. His response on discovering that he's completely boxed himself (and, more to the point, all of us) in, with a looming deadline, is to double down and box himself in even more. He could get away with it with the original 'do or die' deadline by simply ignoring the fact that he missed it. He got away with caving in to the EU's opening position on the WA by branding it as a triumph. Both of those were abject political failures, but without any immediate real-world consequences; he just needed to keep his supporters onside and his MPs pretending to be impressed. How the hell is he going to escape from this mess, which will have big real-world consequences in just 12 weeks or so? He's left himself with so little time - in fact it's already too late - that the only conceivable way out even in the short term is to do a super-fast deal with the EU which extends the transition period, in practice if not in name. So trashing the trust that would help with that is, err, brave...
    Mr Nabavi he didn't really miss the "do or die" deadline. The Withdrawal Agreement was signed and ready to go before the deadline, no further negotiations happened afterwards. The Withdrawal that occured on 31/01/20 could have occured on 31/10/19 with the exact same Agreement, the only issue is the prior Parliament rejected ratifying the agreement in time.

    The solution now is not to do a deal to extend transition, it is to end transition with or without a deal. If there are problems in the New Year then deal with them and fix them, its not the end of the world.
    Have you been paying any attention to Rochdale Pioneer's posts in recent days?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,648
    Only because SKS was in quarantine and Ed Stone was available on the day.
  • HYUFD said:

    Ed Miliband for Shadow Chancellor replacing Dodds, Yvette Cooper replacing Nandy as Shadow Foreign Secretary and Thomas Symonds remaining as Shadow Home Secretary would be a stronger top team for Starmer

    I'm sure the Labour Party will welcome your disinterested advice.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 3,302
    edited September 14

    No denying Labour strategy is pretty flawless right now, nicely-executed attack while keeping Kier off Brexit, textbook deployment of the Quarantine Manoeuvre

    Makes one wonder about the Starmer in quarantine story? Yes, I thought the same.
  • Cicero said:

    Devastation of Johnson: he was totally minced by Ed Miliband. Extraordinary, and surely the Tory Party must be wondering whether they shouldn't be getting rid of Bozo.... cause if they dont, the party itself willl be the next thing to be minced...

    So devastated that the vote passed with a thumping majority! :lol:

    Reality has a funny way of correcting lefty fantasies.
    Are you sure you're not confusing reality (if this bill happens in its current form, it's set to reduce trust in the UK with everyone and annoy the Americans enough that you can forget a trade deal) with winning a vote in an enclosed space in London SW1? One might almost say the Westminster bubble...

    Tut tut. Dom won't be happy with you.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280
    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    Yes they do. But to be honest i think the best chance of that is for them to walk away now. Because if "no deal" is effectively confirmed as the expected outcome then the Govt and its cheerleaders in the Press will be forced to actually face up to the reality of what that means, and not accept uncritically the idea that it is something that we are quite happily threatening the EU with. And when the horror of the comprehensive lack of Government preparation is revealed there could still be some rapid reverse ferreting.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,387
    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,403

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    Come on Philip, you know it's completely inconceivable that a Prime Minister who won the largest share of the vote in 40 years could possibly have fans on The Web's Premier Resource For Political Betting a year later...

    I mean, it just doesn't add up, does it? :wink:
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 5,732
    This won't be a Money Bill.

    Just about every Bill requires the spending of some money. But that doesn't mean all those bills are Money Bills.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280
    "His mental health had definitely failed"

    Probably would be a good time for him to take a sabbatical then...

  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 2,779
    edited September 14
    isam said:

    First and always a fan of Ed Miliband !

    He's always had a strong intellect and a solid moral compass - what stepping back from the front line for a few years has enabled him to do is to grow into himself and become more comfortable in his own skin.

    He looked as uncomfortable as ever to me, and I quite like him
    I don't think so. His overall communication, intonation, body posture, and general presence is vastly improved.

    If he and Starmer worked together on that speech, as reported somewhere, they'll be formidable together. As I remember it was Miliband that encouraged Starmer to run for parliament in the first place, and they've been friends for a long time.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,473
    edited September 14

    isam said:

    First and always a fan of Ed Miliband !

    He's always had a strong intellect and a solid moral compass - what stepping back from the front line for a few years has enabled him to do is to grow into himself and become more comfortable in his own skin.

    He looked as uncomfortable as ever to me, and I quite like him
    I don't think so. His overall communication, intonation, body posture, and general presence is vastly improved.
    Well I know you think that, as I disagreed with the post where you implied it! I don't think I would have queried it had someone shown me that clip and said it was from 2012 (barring the subject matter and the fact it was Boris as PM rather than Cam)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,198
    edited September 14

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    From the sheer number of pro- Johnson posts you produce throughout each day the pro-Boris posts must outnumber detractor posts by at least 10 to 1.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are merely rolling back the Overton Window away from being completely and totally lopsided to the EU's benefit.

    The idea that the only solutions to the Irish border were either a border on the Irish sea or total alignment are completely preposterous nonsense. The other solution that is entirely viable is that we diverge but "de-escalate" the border. Have customs self-declared, put trust in businesses and let people get on with their lives. The UK and the EU may lose some customs from fraud but that is a price worth paying to avoid reopening The Troubles.

    The PM can accept any deal that is a good deal. Once the EU compromise.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,387

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
    It would be more worthwhile trying to teach Irish history to my cat. But for the last time: once Britain decided to leave the EU and made the choice to leave the Single Market, the only choices available were either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.

    May’s deal was one way of dealing with it. Boris’s WA another. He got it, praised it, won a GE on the back of it, enacted it and is now reneging on it.

    So since alignment with the EU is unacceptable, a border with the EU in Ireland it is - with all the potential consequences for peace in NI that follow. And a No Deal departure from the transition for us all, with all the consequences that follow from that.

    But you’re OK with that because as the PM has said a No Deal exit is a fantastic outcome. Presumably as “fantastic” as the WA.

    And now goodnight.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,390
    SKS reasoned amendment:
    Individual votes by party

    May amongst the abstainers.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 2,779
    edited September 14
    The key thing that's happened with Miliband is what happens to a lot of politicians - the ability to develop a greater hinterland away from the front line of politics. Since about two years after losing the general election in 2015 he's loosened up, learned to mock himself with various quite funny online memes, solidified his cult fanbase among centre-left Labour members, and also most importantly developed both his relating, communicative and intellectual hinterland with his "reasons to be cheerful" podcast. It's all not too surprising, really.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 9,702
    @Philip_Thompson whining again that the EU won’t give us exactly what we want. So tiresome.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,022
    Am convinced the PM knows there will be No Deal. And knows it will be rough.
    Today's shenanigans are about apportioning blame away from himself.
    Expect it will be non-stop for the rest of this year.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533
    Stocky said:

    No denying Labour strategy is pretty flawless right now, nicely-executed attack while keeping Kier off Brexit, textbook deployment of the Quarantine Manoeuvre

    Makes one wonder about the Starmer in quarantine story? Yes, I thought the same.
    Either stacking the deck or playing the cards they're dealt so effectively that it *looks* like they must be stacking the deck, either way it's good to see some effective oppositioning after all these years...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,022
    Pulpstar said:

    SKS reasoned amendment:
    Individual votes by party

    May amongst the abstainers.

    Mays in South Korea.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280
    dixiedean said:

    Am convinced the PM knows there will be No Deal. And knows it will be rough.
    Today's shenanigans are about apportioning blame away from himself.
    Expect it will be non-stop for the rest of this year.

    Problem is - how does he escape his repeated claims that no deal is "a very good outcome"? Is he going to try and claim that the EU have wrecked the possibility of an amicable no deal???

    Fortunately for Northern Ireland they'll be spared. They'll be on the right side of the non existent border in the Irish Sea.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
    It would be more worthwhile trying to teach Irish history to my cat. But for the last time: once Britain decided to leave the EU and made the choice to leave the Single Market, the only choices available were either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.

    May’s deal was one way of dealing with it. Boris’s WA another. He got it, praised it, won a GE on the back of it, enacted it and is now reneging on it.

    So since alignment with the EU is unacceptable, a border with the EU in Ireland it is - with all the potential consequences for peace in NI that follow. And a No Deal departure from the transition for us all, with all the consequences that follow from that.

    But you’re OK with that because as the PM has said a No Deal exit is a fantastic outcome. Presumably as “fantastic” as the WA.

    And now goodnight.
    A border on the island of Ireland de-dramatised is the right way of dealing with it. That's neither May's deal nor the EU abusing Boris's deal.

    A border on the island of Ireland already exists for all sorts of laws. Both sides of the border have different rates of VAT, Business Taxes, PAYE taxes, Corporation Taxes and more. How does adding in some customs differences without any infrastructure to back it up make matters worse?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,390
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    SKS reasoned amendment:
    Individual votes by party

    May amongst the abstainers.

    Mays in South Korea.
    How convienient :p
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,198
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    SKS reasoned amendment:
    Individual votes by party

    May amongst the abstainers.

    Mays in South Korea.
    A leaf out of Johnson's book re: Heathrow?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,022
    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Am convinced the PM knows there will be No Deal. And knows it will be rough.
    Today's shenanigans are about apportioning blame away from himself.
    Expect it will be non-stop for the rest of this year.

    Problem is - how does he escape his repeated claims that no deal is "a very good outcome"? Is he going to try and claim that the EU have wrecked the possibility of an amicable no deal???

    Fortunately for Northern Ireland they'll be spared. They'll be on the right side of the non existent border in the Irish Sea.
    Yes. That's what he'll claim.
    And millions will believe him.
    He may even believe it himself.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,873
    alex_ said:
    Phew indeed.

    Which other states are already voting early?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,049
    edited September 14
    dixiedean said:

    Pulpstar said:

    SKS reasoned amendment:
    Individual votes by party

    May amongst the abstainers.

    Mays in South Korea.
    And Johnson’s career is going south.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
    It would be more worthwhile trying to teach Irish history to my cat. But for the last time: once Britain decided to leave the EU and made the choice to leave the Single Market, the only choices available were either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.

    May’s deal was one way of dealing with it. Boris’s WA another. He got it, praised it, won a GE on the back of it, enacted it and is now reneging on it.

    So since alignment with the EU is unacceptable, a border with the EU in Ireland it is - with all the potential consequences for peace in NI that follow. And a No Deal departure from the transition for us all, with all the consequences that follow from that.

    But you’re OK with that because as the PM has said a No Deal exit is a fantastic outcome. Presumably as “fantastic” as the WA.

    And now goodnight.
    A border on the island of Ireland de-dramatised is the right way of dealing with it. That's neither May's deal nor the EU abusing Boris's deal.

    A border on the island of Ireland already exists for all sorts of laws. Both sides of the border have different rates of VAT, Business Taxes, PAYE taxes, Corporation Taxes and more. How does adding in some customs differences without any infrastructure to back it up make matters worse?
    Why didn't he just do that in January then? Instead of signing the WA and saving us the 11 months of being tied into EU laws not preparing properly for the "very good outcome" no deal that we weren't prepared for 8 months ago.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 48,525
    alex_ said:
    I assume that'll be off to the supreme court shortly?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 6,198
    Stocky said:

    No denying Labour strategy is pretty flawless right now, nicely-executed attack while keeping Kier off Brexit, textbook deployment of the Quarantine Manoeuvre

    Makes one wonder about the Starmer in quarantine story? Yes, I thought the same.
    The lying *******! Any Party leader found lying should be dismissed with immediate effect!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,390
    The theoretical maximum for a division is 642-642. All members except speakers and tellers going through both lobbies.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,390
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:
    I assume that'll be off to the supreme court shortly?
    Roberts won't overturn Hagedorn's decision.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 8,022
    RobD said:

    alex_ said:
    I assume that'll be off to the supreme court shortly?
    Doubt it. AIUI States control their own Election Law. Who is eligible to vote, who is on the ballot and when and where you can vote.
    Which is bonkers in a Federal Election.
    But there we are.
  • BBC News - Xinjiang: US to block some exports from Chinese region
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54155809
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533

    alex_ said:
    Phew indeed.

    Which other states are already voting early?
    PA is in a similar situation, they should be able to mail out ballots by now but they're stalled by litigation over whether to include the Green Party. This is the opposite to the Wisconsin case, they're currently *on* the ballot, and the Dems are suing to try to change that and kick them off:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/decision-in-front-of-pa-supreme-court-stalls-delivery-of-mail-in-ballots/ar-BB192pMQ
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Am convinced the PM knows there will be No Deal. And knows it will be rough.
    Today's shenanigans are about apportioning blame away from himself.
    Expect it will be non-stop for the rest of this year.

    Problem is - how does he escape his repeated claims that no deal is "a very good outcome"? Is he going to try and claim that the EU have wrecked the possibility of an amicable no deal???

    Fortunately for Northern Ireland they'll be spared. They'll be on the right side of the non existent border in the Irish Sea.
    What - the side of liars, cheats and Brexiteers? That is not the right side.

    NI voted "Remain"
  • FPT, regarding the vote:
    Why burn all that capital just to get a few good headlines in the right wing papers and a tweet that only political obsessives will pay attention to. Unless this is all a move in political 4D chess escapology masterminded by Cummings that will only be revealed in time. Beats me.
  • Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    You don't provide balance you are purely a white knight for Boris and cummings. Last week you were lecturing about how great track and trace was since Dido took over. I notice you are ignoring it now that plenty of stories are emerging that it is sort of third world as an implementation.

    You are an uncritical fan boy who believes every word. Your views aren't counter balancing they are farcical because even if boris went on an axe murder rampage you would find some reason to excuse it. I know it so does everyone else
    I am in complete and 100% agreement.

    I think Philip is a nice enough guy but whatever Johnson does, he will find a way to back it. When it comes to Johnson he is completely off the deep end.

    He reminds me of myself.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953

    ... The PM can accept any deal that is a good deal...

    What? Like the fantastic oven-ready deal whose virtues he shouted from the rooftops 9 months ago?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/10252266/boris-johnson-election-oven-ready-brexit/
  • isamisam Posts: 33,473
    The bias of the sites editorial team is fair enough, but I think it’s a bit much to have the thread of the day all about how important it is that Geoffrey Cox is not voting with the govt in this massive big deal bill, then the thread immediately after the bill is passed not mention the result
  • Pagan2 said:

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    You don't provide balance you are purely a white knight for Boris and cummings. Last week you were lecturing about how great track and trace was since Dido took over. I notice you are ignoring it now that plenty of stories are emerging that it is sort of third world as an implementation.

    You are an uncritical fan boy who believes every word. Your views aren't counter balancing they are farcical because even if boris went on an axe murder rampage you would find some reason to excuse it. I know it so does everyone else
    I am in complete and 100% agreement.

    I think Philip is a nice enough guy but whatever Johnson does, he will find a way to back it. When it comes to Johnson he is completely off the deep end.

    He reminds me of myself.
    Not everything.

    When the exams story broke I was one of the first on this site calling for a u turn.
  • alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
    It would be more worthwhile trying to teach Irish history to my cat. But for the last time: once Britain decided to leave the EU and made the choice to leave the Single Market, the only choices available were either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.

    May’s deal was one way of dealing with it. Boris’s WA another. He got it, praised it, won a GE on the back of it, enacted it and is now reneging on it.

    So since alignment with the EU is unacceptable, a border with the EU in Ireland it is - with all the potential consequences for peace in NI that follow. And a No Deal departure from the transition for us all, with all the consequences that follow from that.

    But you’re OK with that because as the PM has said a No Deal exit is a fantastic outcome. Presumably as “fantastic” as the WA.

    And now goodnight.
    A border on the island of Ireland de-dramatised is the right way of dealing with it. That's neither May's deal nor the EU abusing Boris's deal.

    A border on the island of Ireland already exists for all sorts of laws. Both sides of the border have different rates of VAT, Business Taxes, PAYE taxes, Corporation Taxes and more. How does adding in some customs differences without any infrastructure to back it up make matters worse?
    Why didn't he just do that in January then? Instead of signing the WA and saving us the 11 months of being tied into EU laws not preparing properly for the "very good outcome" no deal that we weren't prepared for 8 months ago.
    The WA was signed in October last year.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 10,296

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    Come on Philip, you know it's completely inconceivable that a Prime Minister who won the largest share of the vote in 40 years could possibly have fans on The Web's Premier Resource For Political Betting a year later...

    I mean, it just doesn't add up, does it? :wink:
    A bit like criticising Richard Nixon just a year after his 1972 landslide win.
  • isam said:

    The bias of the sites editorial team is fair enough, but I think it’s a bit much to have the thread of the day all about how important it is that Geoffrey Cox is not voting with the govt in this massive big deal bill, then the thread immediately after the bill is passed not mention the result

    I'm not sure thread headers normally do follow running stories in the way you suggest, except perhaps on election nights. In any case, as the header in question made clear, Geoffrey Cox's intervention is likely to make it harder to pass the House of Lords, not the Commons.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,001
    edited September 15
    This is an interesting essay in my opinion. Excerpt.

    "As an economist, Röpke understood that nations which gave primacy to the tenets of economic liberalism would become very wealthy, but he also realised as a learned, traditionally oriented liberal that it would be short-lived if other values did not curb liberalism’s excesses. If the values which had made possible economic and political liberalism were permitted to be eroded by these same forces, future generations would find themselves in wealthy but spiritually depleted societies without common beliefs or a common vision. Discontent with this purely materialistic life would surface and “spiritual mass epidemics” would arise, easily dominating masses of directionless people and their apathetic institutions."

    https://quillette.com/2020/09/14/the-rule-of-the-masses/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,521

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    Come on Philip, you know it's completely inconceivable that a Prime Minister who won the largest share of the vote in 40 years could possibly have fans on The Web's Premier Resource For Political Betting a year later...

    I mean, it just doesn't add up, does it? :wink:
    You want to take away their license fee ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,521
    He claims there’s a hit squad in the CDC out to kill him.
    What goes on in these people’s heads ?
  • Trumpsky & RNC have released a "Support Our Troops" ad featuring RUSSIAN fighter jets.

    Now THAT's what I call real truth in advertising!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280
    edited September 15

    alex_ said:

    dixiedean said:

    Am convinced the PM knows there will be No Deal. And knows it will be rough.
    Today's shenanigans are about apportioning blame away from himself.
    Expect it will be non-stop for the rest of this year.

    Problem is - how does he escape his repeated claims that no deal is "a very good outcome"? Is he going to try and claim that the EU have wrecked the possibility of an amicable no deal???

    Fortunately for Northern Ireland they'll be spared. They'll be on the right side of the non existent border in the Irish Sea.
    What - the side of liars, cheats and Brexiteers? That is not the right side.

    NI voted "Remain"
    No, I mean NI will be in the Single Market. Unless the U.K. government have really screwed it up for them which is a risk.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,280

    alex_ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Stocky said:

    Even if Barnier and co. still stagger on with this and cobble something together, what will be the ratification requirements among the EU member states? Surely enough of them now have the perfect excuse to tell us where to poke it?

    The EU don`t want to tell us where to poke it. They want deal.
    You hope. And maybe you are right. But the price they will try and extract for it is now much higher because of these shenanigans.

    And having said that No deal is a fantastic outcome, why should the PM accept any deal now on offer?
    These "shenanigans" are rolling back the Overton Window to not being completely lopsided to them.

    The idea that the only acceptable solution is either total alignment or a border in the Irish Sea always been total codswallop but for as long as the EU thinks it won't have to deal with the issue of perhaps losing some customs (honestly so what in the scheme of things if that is the answer) they have absolutely zero reason to compromise.
    It would be more worthwhile trying to teach Irish history to my cat. But for the last time: once Britain decided to leave the EU and made the choice to leave the Single Market, the only choices available were either a border on the island of Ireland or a border in the Irish Sea.

    May’s deal was one way of dealing with it. Boris’s WA another. He got it, praised it, won a GE on the back of it, enacted it and is now reneging on it.

    So since alignment with the EU is unacceptable, a border with the EU in Ireland it is - with all the potential consequences for peace in NI that follow. And a No Deal departure from the transition for us all, with all the consequences that follow from that.

    But you’re OK with that because as the PM has said a No Deal exit is a fantastic outcome. Presumably as “fantastic” as the WA.

    And now goodnight.
    A border on the island of Ireland de-dramatised is the right way of dealing with it. That's neither May's deal nor the EU abusing Boris's deal.

    A border on the island of Ireland already exists for all sorts of laws. Both sides of the border have different rates of VAT, Business Taxes, PAYE taxes, Corporation Taxes and more. How does adding in some customs differences without any infrastructure to back it up make matters worse?
    Why didn't he just do that in January then? Instead of signing the WA and saving us the 11 months of being tied into EU laws not preparing properly for the "very good outcome" no deal that we weren't prepared for 8 months ago.
    The WA was signed in October last year.
    You don’t get much right these days, do you?
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,881

    FPT

    Pulpstar said:

    About the Lords stopping the bill...

    MPs are voting on the money resolution for the UK Internal Market Bill

    The money resolution authorises the spending of public money in relation to the bill

    A money bill is a bill that in the opinion of the House of Commons Speaker is concerned only with national taxation, public money or loans.

    A bill that is certified as a money bill and which has been passed by the Commons will become law after one month, with or without the approval of the House of Lords, under the terms of the Parliament Acts.

    This is a money bill?

    Oh that is fantastic! Fanbloodytastic! Well done to whoever designed it that way, that is best news tonight.
    A BoJo fanboy speaks
    This site is hosted by and has numerous people posting who can't stand BoJo.

    What's your problem with me providing some balance from the other side?
    Not to say how demeaning it is to resort to name calling of posters rather than make an argument. It encourages others to pile in - very unedifying.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,099

    alex_ said:
    Phew indeed.

    Which other states are already voting early?
    PA is in a similar situation, they should be able to mail out ballots by now but they're stalled by litigation over whether to include the Green Party. This is the opposite to the Wisconsin case, they're currently *on* the ballot, and the Dems are suing to try to change that and kick them off:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/decision-in-front-of-pa-supreme-court-stalls-delivery-of-mail-in-ballots/ar-BB192pMQ
    So this is where a crooked voting system takes you to? Legal action to narrow the choice available to voters and keep legitimate opinions out of the election.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,099

    ... The PM can accept any deal that is a good deal...

    What? Like the fantastic oven-ready deal whose virtues he shouted from the rooftops 9 months ago?

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/10252266/boris-johnson-election-oven-ready-brexit/
    And it turns out he didn’t even have an oven.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 14,533
    IanB2 said:

    alex_ said:
    Phew indeed.

    Which other states are already voting early?
    PA is in a similar situation, they should be able to mail out ballots by now but they're stalled by litigation over whether to include the Green Party. This is the opposite to the Wisconsin case, they're currently *on* the ballot, and the Dems are suing to try to change that and kick them off:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/decision-in-front-of-pa-supreme-court-stalls-delivery-of-mail-in-ballots/ar-BB192pMQ
    So this is where a crooked voting system takes you to? Legal action to narrow the choice available to voters and keep legitimate opinions out of the election.
    TBF however good the system there are rules about what you have to do to get on the ballot, and ultimately courts decide how to interpret them. FPTP makes it worse, but I think there's always going to be potential for this kind of thing to happen.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 1,283
    One of the big problems with Brexit is it takes so much energy from the big crises we face
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/sep/14/northern-hemisphere-record-hottest-summer-noaa barely registers

    We're busy arguing about the arrangement of deck chairs on the Titanic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 28,099
    New thread
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,012
    I don't know how important the rest of the shadow cabinet is, but undoubtedly Starmer could do better with the top tier positions. I'm sure Dodds knows her stuff, but she hasn't developed as a politician. Miliband as Shadow Chancellor and Cooper as Shadow Home Sec would give a bit of political gravitas to Starmer's team.

    Of course, they might also show up their leader as being a bit dull.
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