Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
As it would be a foreign power and England would correctly put its own interests first in any trade negotiations and if Scotland left to join the EU because of No Deal it would have to accept that would mean tariffs put on Scottish exports to England
Are there any non-Scots here besides myself who want Scotland to go independent?
I'm guessing maybe Beibheirli_C but I'm not sure about her.
Plenty.
I hadn't noticed many, sorry if that's the case. You?
Not me, no, not even a little bit. But I think there's a quite a few, from the 'it's nothing to do with us' side (notwithstanding it is currently a part of the UK so yes it is something to do with the rest of the UK), to the 'it'd be good for all the nations of the UK to go their own way', to 'How dare they not like the UK, just bugger off and it'll be tory heaven' side.
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
Georgia had breached 5000 test confirmed Covid deaths - as ever the real figure will be higher. Will now easily be into a run of days of 50%+ excess deaths from Covid.
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
Tim, I agree there are many sensible intelligent people on here that would wish us well, but a fair rump who only harbour ill wishes unfortunately, it is an extremely sad fact.
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
I don’t know about most, malcolm. Certainly the loudest voices.
I don’t want to see Scottish independence, either, but that is no reason to deny another referendum, if that’s the democratic will of Scotland. Nor is it reason to seek anything but a cooperative relationship, should Scotland become independent.
Most was a bit over the top Nigel, but at least a very vocal minority as you say.
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
Tim, I agree there are many sensible intelligent people on here that would wish us well, but a fair rump who only harbour ill wishes unfortunately, it is an extremely sad fact.
Before the Act of Union England fought more wars against Scotland than any other nation bar France, after a likely bitter divorce do not expect a love in
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
Tim, I agree there are many sensible intelligent people on here that would wish us well, but a fair rump who only harbour ill wishes unfortunately, it is an extremely sad fact.
Before the Act of Union England fought more wars against Scotland than any other nation bar France, after a likely bitter divorce do not expect a love in
Do you think we'll wage war against France too after Brexit?
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
A Tory government would never hold a referendum on the monarchy so it is not an issue, if there was to be one it would be under Labour and in the unlikely event there was a vote for a republic there would be a Labour government implementing it.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
Tim, I agree there are many sensible intelligent people on here that would wish us well, but a fair rump who only harbour ill wishes unfortunately, it is an extremely sad fact.
Before the Act of Union England fought more wars against Scotland than any other nation bar France, after a likely bitter divorce do not expect a love in
Do you think we'll wage war against France too after Brexit?
Well given the current turn of events who knows, Barnier is French of course (though as I have Huguenot ancestry so partly am I)
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
But you voted against Brexit in 2016 for some unfathomable reason!
Georgia had breached 5000 test confirmed Covid deaths - as ever the real figure will be higher. Will now easily be into a run of days of 50%+ excess deaths from Covid.
Looking at Georgia annual death stats August is their normally lowest month so they are probably running at 60%+ excess deaths at the moment.
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
As it would be a foreign power and England would correctly put its own interests first in any trade negotiations and if Scotland left to join the EU because of No Deal it would have to accept that would mean tariffs put on Scottish exports to England
Why would it be in our benefit to pay more for whisky?
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
As it would be a foreign power and England would correctly put its own interests first in any trade negotiations and if Scotland left to join the EU because of No Deal it would have to accept that would mean tariffs put on Scottish exports to England
Why would it be in our benefit to pay more for whisky?
One thing that it’s possible polls are not picking up is the shy Trump abandoners. Certainly in the red areas in swing states, those Republicans who have switched are very hesitant to talk about it (& if their neighbours are true believers, who can blame them ?). Do the polls pick them up ?
The undecideds from last time around are also breaking significantly for Biden this time around. Will they turn out ?
I had a drink 2 weeks ago with a lovely couple from Louisiana. They are voting Biden - but volunteered that they just didn’t talk politics because all of their neighbours were pro Trump (they said their neighbours were driven by the fact their taxes were lower under Trump)
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
A Tory government would never hold a referendum on the monarchy so it is not an issue, if there was to be one it would be under Labour and in the unlikely event there was a vote for a republic there would be a Labour government implementing it.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
A Labour government arranges a referendum which results in a 52% majority for abolishing the monarchy. There is a GE before terms have been agreed for the monarch to step down. What should the position on Monexit in the tory manifesto be?
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
A Tory government would never hold a referendum on the monarchy so it is not an issue, if there was to be one it would be under Labour and in the unlikely event there was a vote for a republic there would be a Labour government implementing it.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
So you only loathe half of Scotland. Not so bad then.
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
A Tory government would never hold a referendum on the monarchy so it is not an issue, if there was to be one it would be under Labour and in the unlikely event there was a vote for a republic there would be a Labour government implementing it.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
A Labour government arranges a referendum which results in a 52% majority for abolishing the monarchy. There is a GE before terms have been agreed for the monarch to step down. What should the position on Monexit in the tory manifesto be?
Well we would try and reverse it as Labour did Brexit but technically there should still be a brief Republic to respect the vote then a grand Restoration of the monarchy a la 1660 once the Tories win the election
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
As it would be a foreign power and England would correctly put its own interests first in any trade negotiations and if Scotland left to join the EU because of No Deal it would have to accept that would mean tariffs put on Scottish exports to England
Why would it be in our benefit to pay more for whisky?
We would drink less of it. Jeffrey Bernard believed that both whisky and, say, vodka make you an alcoholic but that whisky makes you mad over and above being an alcoholic in a way other drinks don’t.
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
But you voted against Brexit in 2016 for some unfathomable reason!
The reason is simple. He follows the orders of whoever is leading the Tory Party at the time. Cammo said vote Remain, he voted Remain. Now Bozo says Hard Brexit - you know the rest.
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Sounds like project fear to me.
That's all they've got. There is no positive vision of Union to sell to the people of Scotland.
Or Yorkshire, for that matter.
It worked in 2014.
It also worked in Quebec in 1995 where it was not love of Canada which saw a 51% No vote but companies starting to move out and fear of the economic damage with the carrot of devomax.
It almost worked in 2016, most of the 48% like me did not vote Remain out of any love of the EU but because we feared the economic damage of leaving it
And yet you are now the biggest pompom waver for Bozo's rock-hard no-deal Brexit. Funny old world.
No I still would prefer a deal but I also respected the will of the people to leave the EU
Which is why you are and will forever be a tory in name only. No true Conservative would "respect the will of the people" as expressed in something as unBritish and as profoundly incompatible with the constitution as a referendum. They might think for other reasons that leaving the EU was a good thing and that the Crown in Parliament should cause it to happen, but that's not the point.
Well they also won a majority in Parliament to deliver Brexit last year and it was delivered.
Sure, a majority to enact a referendum result.
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
A Tory government would never hold a referendum on the monarchy so it is not an issue, if there was to be one it would be under Labour and in the unlikely event there was a vote for a republic there would be a Labour government implementing it.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
So you only loathe half of Scotland. Not so bad then.
I love going to No voting Edinburgh yes, I try and avoid Yes voting Glasgow unless I have to.
Similarly I know many Europeans who post Brexit love going to Remain voting London, Oxford, the Cotswolds or Edinburgh or Bath etc but would not touch Brexitshire with a bargepole
One thing that it’s possible polls are not picking up is the shy Trump abandoners. Certainly in the red areas in swing states, those Republicans who have switched are very hesitant to talk about it (& if their neighbours are true believers, who can blame them ?). Do the polls pick them up ?
The undecideds from last time around are also breaking significantly for Biden this time around. Will they turn out ?
I had a drink 2 weeks ago with a lovely couple from Louisiana. They are voting Biden - but volunteered that they just didn’t talk politics because all of their neighbours were pro Trump (they said their neighbours were driven by the fact their taxes were lower under Trump)
You could well be on to something although n=1
The main thing I am thinking of in this area is that due to turnout filters there is a strong chance Likely Voter screens would knock out 2012 Obama - 2016 Did Not Vote - 2020 Biden voters from their response.
Georgia had breached 5000 test confirmed Covid deaths - as ever the real figure will be higher. Will now easily be into a run of days of 50%+ excess deaths from Covid.
Which Georgia? The State of the USA, or the ex-member of the USSR?
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
As it would be a foreign power and England would correctly put its own interests first in any trade negotiations and if Scotland left to join the EU because of No Deal it would have to accept that would mean tariffs put on Scottish exports to England
Why would it be in our benefit to pay more for whisky?
I don’t see how immediate Scottish membership of both the Euro and the EU would give rUK a “bloody nose”. It would be good for them and by extension us.
It would mean tariffs on Scottish exports and English exports if we were on WTO terms Brexit and border posts across the Scottish border
I thought WTO rules didn’t cover financial services, which is where the ‘rUK dependency’ you’re so fond of emphasising arises.
I don’t see how immediate Scottish membership of both the Euro and the EU would give rUK a “bloody nose”. It would be good for them and by extension us.
It would mean tariffs on Scottish exports and English exports if we were on WTO terms Brexit and border posts across the Scottish border
I thought WTO rules didn’t cover financial services, which is where the ‘rUK dependency’ you’re so fond of emphasising arises.
They do cover most of the 70% of Scottish exported goods that go to England
Are there any non-Scots here besides myself who want Scotland to go independent?
I'm guessing maybe Beibheirli_C but I'm not sure about her.
Whatever they want to do should be respected.
Yup. I’m a proud Englishman and feel that Scotland would be better going its own way. I would advocate our being a very friendly neighbour and partner.
Today's Covid hospital patient total is 834 - down about another 10% in a week - and it looks like it could scrape in just below 800 tomorrow.
Incidentally, 30% of all remaining Covid patients are now in Scottish hospitals. As I've pointed out before, at the peak of the pandemic the number of hospital patients per head of population was approximately the same in all four constituent parts of the UK, so why the current figures are so skewed is anyone's guess.
Its strange given the amazing job Saint Nicola has done compared to Beastly BoZo . . .
We don't know whether this is a weakness or a strength. For all we know the Scottish NHS is being hyper cautious and is worried about letting those recovering from Covid go home too soon.
But I'm totally guessing as to the possible causes, which is why I contented myself with reporting the apparent anomaly.
Indeed, we may well have "Saved the NHS" by sacrificing patients.
Scotland's overall Covid death rate is a little lower than that in Wales and substantially lower than that in England (Northern Ireland does much better than Scotland, but I think that it probably benefited from relative geographic isolation and prompt action by the Republic.) OTOH, it has been oft reported that a greater proportion of Scottish Covid deaths have happened in care homes.
I suppose what could be happening is that...
1. The disease spread unevenly through the UK, hitting London first and hardest. This would mean that lockdown measures started to come into force at an earlier stage in the pandemic in Scotland, limiting its severity 2. The Scottish NHS panic flapped at the start of the pandemic, like everyone else, and threw out as many frail old people as quickly as possible to free up hospital beds. The situation in the care homes then developed in a similar fashion to the rest of the UK 3. However, perhaps the Scottish NHS modified its practices at some point and began to keep recovering Covid patients in hospital for longer? Therefore, later on in the pandemic, it has done a better job of keeping its Covid patients alive, which has helped to suppress the Scottish mortality rate further - but also means that they have more Covid patients left in hospital now than might be expected
If a record exists of the average length of hospital stay for a Covid-19 patient in each of the four home nations, then this might yield evidence for point 3.
The other weird thing is Scotland has less Covid ICU patients
My inner Grammar Nazi just decided to attack Poland.
I do this deliberately
Well I certainly hope you wouldn’t attack Poland by accident!
Are there any non-Scots here besides myself who want Scotland to go independent?
I'm guessing maybe Beibheirli_C but I'm not sure about her.
Whatever they want to do should be respected.
Yup. I’m a proud Englishman and feel that Scotland would be better going its own way. I would advocate our being a very friendly neighbour and partner.
You can advocate what you want, given the main reason Scotland would likely vote for independence is a No Trade Deal WTO terms Brexit that would mean tariffs and customs posts along the border if they then left the UK to rejoin the EU
It looks like the Oxford COVID vaccine trial in the US is finally starting, with research locations in 36 states. The planned Primary Completion Date is 2nd December 2020.
Number (3) is possible, but difficult. And it would require the support of the IMF and the World Bank.
Is there not a way around #2?
Actually, a mix of two and three is probably the easiest option of all for an independent Scotland. The Scottish Groat would be pegged one-to-one with the Euro, and the ECB (on the basis that Scotland would be joining the EU in due course) could help support the peg.
Couldn't Scotland simply jump straight to #2?
It takes unanimity to join the EU and it takes unanimity to amend the EU treaties (including the single currency rules).
So with the unique nature of Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU could it not simply seek to jump straight from Britain & the pound to ending a transition period immediately in the EU & the Euro?
That would take unanimous agreement but so does simply joining in the first place. And if the EU decides it wants to facilitate Scottish membership of the EU (and inflict a bloody nose upon the UK) they could simply agree to it could they not?
Spain.
If the referendum isn't wildcat and is endorsed by the UK Parliament then I don't think Spain will have a problem with it. Spain will have a problem giving succour to a wildcat referendum.
Spain won't want to make it easy and painless for Scotland to join.
Why?
Catalonia.
“No because if you are thinking about Catalonia the situation is very very very different to the Scottish situation." Estaban Pons
So you're quoting one MEP at me.
Ok.
Think about it logically. The Spanish are desperate to avoid giving succour to the Catalonians.
If Scotland goes independent then how do they do that? 1: Act with impotent rage against newly independent Scotland while not preventing it from becoming independent? 2: Insist that the situation in Scotland is nothing like the situation in Catalonia?
Realpolitik would mean they would need to need to go down route 2, which means they'd want to facilitate making things relatively simple for Scotland to show how different that is to Catalonia and how it was more a unique issue with the UK.
Last year proved the Spanish don’t behave rationale where Catalonian independence is concerned
One thing that it’s possible polls are not picking up is the shy Trump abandoners. Certainly in the red areas in swing states, those Republicans who have switched are very hesitant to talk about it (& if their neighbours are true believers, who can blame them ?). Do the polls pick them up ?
The undecideds from last time around are also breaking significantly for Biden this time around. Will they turn out ?
I had a drink 2 weeks ago with a lovely couple from Louisiana. They are voting Biden - but volunteered that they just didn’t talk politics because all of their neighbours were pro Trump (they said their neighbours were driven by the fact their taxes were lower under Trump)
You could well be on to something although n=1
I don’t think a Louisiana is a swing state... but that does conform with similar accounts. Even a percent or so of such voters unreached by polling would make a significant difference.
Last night we were discussing the old Sunderland South constituency and how it might have voted in 2019 had it still existed. One of the main experts on this subject on the VoteUK forum has done some calculations and come up with the following:
#3 - How did Denmark manage in 2015? Pegged to the Euro, 450 million krone ($30 billion) foreign currency reserves and they still managed to give the international currency sharks a bloody nose.
They started in 1818 and had £50bn in reserve. Which is about one year's tax take in Scotland.
Re: Kennedy v Markey, not sure too many Mass voters waiting to get the word from Beto.
Interesting race, to say the least. Very 21st-century, yet with echoes of political paddywackery going back over a century to the days James Michael Curley did battle versus John "Honey Fitz" Fitzgerald, young JK's great-great-grandfather (as in the infamous "Bubbles" affair).
BTW Kennedy HAD been leading for months in the polls, despite a number of gaffes and missed opportunities, until about a month ago, when - coincidentally or not - the Boston Globe endorsed Markey.
If Indyref2 was "split" it would be fun to watch Yes/Remainovs argue for No Deal when the Covid Debt is put on the table, and the No/Leavers argue for a People's Vote on the negotiation.
#3 - How did Denmark manage in 2015? Pegged to the Euro, 450 million krone ($30 billion) foreign currency reserves and they still managed to give the international currency sharks a bloody nose.
They started in 1818 and had £50bn in reserve. Which is about one year's tax take in Scotland.
Didn't they save the money they got from selling Danish Virgin Islands to Uncle Sam in 1917? Think what they could achieve with the nest egg Trumpsky would give them for Greenland!
It looks like the Oxford COVID vaccine trial in the US is finally starting, with research locations in 36 states. The planned Primary Completion Date is 2nd December 2020.
The big tests for the Oxford/AZ vaccine are in Brazil (started June 28) and South Africa (July 1). If you assume they vaccinate 1,000 people in each country a week, then there are now about 14,000 people having been given either the vaccine or a placebo.
Now, it typically takes 2-3 weeks for the immune system to develop the required neutralising antibodies (although it's possible a heightened T cell response may come sooner), so we can probably expect the first meaningful (albeit limited) data to arrive imminently, perhaps as soon as next week.
Scotland they are mainly in HDU if really sick , only in ICU if on ventilator, as far as I am aware.
What's the dream Scottish Nationalist path now Malcolm?
The SNP isn't quite what it was. Scottish Nationalism though is very much on the up.
Economically the idea is facing some hurdles.
Diplomatically too - I'm not sure the EU is that keen now.
I imagine you'll be generally of the view to wait a small while. Would you target a 2024 date? (There's a nice 10 year thing that can be sold in Westminster)
(It clashes with a likely GE, and that's not so good)
Sooner the better for me. If they do not make next year a vote on independence then the SNP will suffer badly. Will take time to organise referendum and then negotiate the split.
So if you could choose? 2024 seems a nice date to me - not a rush (10 years).
I really don't want to see Scotland go, but if it is going to do so (and I think that likely) I'd really like you guys to have the best of the winds on your backs.
The covid thing has made this a bit more tricky, but perhaps a little bit of wind is out of the sails all round. Scotland, if it departs, will wish to seek the good wishes of the rest of us, and there's no doubt that you'll have them. No barging on really.
Thanks, nice to see an intelligent decent post , most on here only wish us ill and are praying we end up destitute and wrecked, extremely sad.
malcolm, I think there are a fair few on this site who believe firmly in self-determination. I for one think it silly for Westminster to talk about not allowing another referendum when the SNP is so dominant in Scotland and is calling for one. And even without neighbourly goodwill, it would simply be in England's self-interest to have a prosperous and happy Scotland on its doorstep post independence.
If Scotland was granted indyref2 and voted Yes London would correctly treat Edinburgh in as tough a manner as Brussels has treated London, no favours and as a foreign power
Why, and why would that be correct rather than idiotic?
It was foolish of the EU to behave like a jilted lover, and it would be foolish of rUK to behave similarly.
PS: the same dumb Fcuks then wonder why England is hated across the world.
It isn’t. There’s only one country where so many people support whoever is playing against England, where so many call the local branch of the Anglican church something other than Anglican, where I’ve seen Twining’s English Breakfast tea described on a cafe notice board as simply “Breakfast Tea”, and where supermarkets’ own brands of English mustard are called simply “mustard”. It’s a small country that cooperated with England in establishing and running the British Empire funnily enough. It’s the only country in the world where so many people hate the English. Even diehard Irish republicans have never hated the English - it was the “Brits” they had a problem with. You should get out some more, Malcolm. Englishness is mostly a highly respected brand, e.g. in the US, on the continent, in Africa, in Asia. It’s only in one single small country that it’s widely hated. Never mind the Barnett formula and all the subventions. Even mention of such matters by someone speaking in an English accent can be met with foaming xenophobic hatred as if the person “would” say such things because they are an “FEB”.
PS: the same dumb Fcuks then wonder why England is hated across the world.
It isn’t. There’s only one country where so many people support whoever is playing against England, where so many call the local branch of the Anglican church something other than Anglican, where I’ve seen Twining’s English Breakfast tea described on a cafe notice board as simply “Breakfast Tea”, and where supermarkets’ own brands of English mustard are called simply “mustard”. It’s a small country that cooperated with England in establishing and running the British Empire funnily enough. It’s the only country in the world where so many people hate the English. Even diehard Irish republicans have never hated the English - it was the “Brits” they had a problem with. You should get out some more, Malcolm. Englishness is mostly a highly respected brand, e.g. in the US, on the continent, in Africa, in Asia. It’s only in one single small country that it’s widely hated. Never mind the Barnett formula and all the subventions. Even mention of such matters by someone speaking in an English accent can be met with foaming xenophobic hatred as if the person “would” say such things because they are an “FEB”.
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not "the local branch of the Anglican church" because it's not under the jurisdiction of what Charles would call ++Cantab, and it's not unique either because there's the Episcopal Church in the States. It's not called Anglican because it isn't Anglican.
I am English and live in England and I support whoever is playing against England to the hilt in any football match ever played because of the overall rise in national c**tishness with every victory in every competition.
Your view of the origins of the British Empire displays a borderline racist contempt for the contribution of the people of Wales and NI.
It is true that I spend more time in the Highlands n Islands than the central belt, but I have never, ever encountered anything worse than being treated as a bit of an idiot, and I get that in England too, so we can't rule out a non racist explanation.
PS: the same dumb Fcuks then wonder why England is hated across the world.
It isn’t. There’s only one country where so many people support whoever is playing against England, where so many call the local branch of the Anglican church something other than Anglican, where I’ve seen Twining’s English Breakfast tea described on a cafe notice board as simply “Breakfast Tea”, and where supermarkets’ own brands of English mustard are called simply “mustard”. It’s a small country that cooperated with England in establishing and running the British Empire funnily enough. It’s the only country in the world where so many people hate the English. Even diehard Irish republicans have never hated the English - it was the “Brits” they had a problem with. You should get out some more, Malcolm. Englishness is mostly a highly respected brand, e.g. in the US, on the continent, in Africa, in Asia. It’s only in one single small country that it’s widely hated. Never mind the Barnett formula and all the subventions. Even mention of such matters by someone speaking in an English accent can be met with foaming xenophobic hatred as if the person “would” say such things because they are an “FEB”.
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not "the local branch of the Anglican church" because it's not under the jurisdiction of what Charles would call ++Cantab, and it's not unique either because there's the Episcopal Church in the States. It's not called Anglican because it isn't Anglican.
I am English and live in England and I support whoever is playing against England to the hilt in any football match ever played because of the overall rise in national c**tishness with every victory in every competition.
Your view of the origins of the British Empire displays a borderline racist contempt for the contribution of the people of Wales and NI.
It is true that I spend more time in the Highlands n Islands than the central belt, but I have never, ever encountered anything worse than being treated as a bit of an idiot, and I get that in England too, so we can't rule out a non racist explanation.
Don’t call me a racist. I didn’t say the English and the Scots were the only countries that set up and ran the British empire. You might as well call yourself racist for not mentioning Irish people from the 26 counties in the days when the UK was the UKGBI.
I take your point about the Scottish Episcopalians but it is pedantic because they are part of the Anglican Communion which is what I meant. They recognise the Archbishop of Canterbury as the head of it if not his “jurisdiction”. I do not know the precise ecclesiastical terminology but of course the Scottish Episcopalians are Anglican. They are part of the Anglican Communion, unlike the Church of Scotland and the Calvinist Scottish churches which would run a mile rather than appoint a bishop.
England is a strong brand around the world, and if you hate the English despite being English then that’s your problem because I was talking about how the English are perceived by others and so was Malcolm. Just that he was wrong because the only country where hatred of the English is widespread is Scotland. There are parts of Wales where it’s quite widespread but they’re only parts and most of Wales is fairly positive about the English.
During your stays in Scotland haven’t you noticed things like the tea and the mustard? Perhaps you should come and live in Scotland rather than simply visit and you might realise that if you are ethnically English and you express a view about how things should be here that is at loggerheads with the views of some ethnic Scots, your ethnicity will probably be an issue just as much as if you are black English in conversation with a group of white English BNP supporters. Scotland is back in the 1950s as far as multiculturalism is concerned, and the whole “independence within the EU” line is a dog whistle, bearing in mind EU membership requires a hard border on the Tweed because rUK will be outside the CU and SM and there is no GFA equivalent and nor would the EU agree one. The line is the political equivalent of supporting whoever is playing against England. The message is “We’re not inward looking; it’s only the English that we hate.”
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not "the local branch of the Anglican church" because it's not under the jurisdiction of what Charles would call ++Cantab.
I don’t know who Charles is, but you mean Cantuar not Cantab.
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not "the local branch of the Anglican church" because it's not under the jurisdiction of what Charles would call ++Cantab.
I don’t know who Charles is, but you mean Cantuar not Cantab.
Fuck sorry you are abs right. Archbishop of Cambridge indeed.
PS: the same dumb Fcuks then wonder why England is hated across the world.
It isn’t. There’s only one country where so many people support whoever is playing against England, where so many call the local branch of the Anglican church something other than Anglican, where I’ve seen Twining’s English Breakfast tea described on a cafe notice board as simply “Breakfast Tea”, and where supermarkets’ own brands of English mustard are called simply “mustard”. It’s a small country that cooperated with England in establishing and running the British Empire funnily enough. It’s the only country in the world where so many people hate the English. Even diehard Irish republicans have never hated the English - it was the “Brits” they had a problem with. You should get out some more, Malcolm. Englishness is mostly a highly respected brand, e.g. in the US, on the continent, in Africa, in Asia. It’s only in one single small country that it’s widely hated. Never mind the Barnett formula and all the subventions. Even mention of such matters by someone speaking in an English accent can be met with foaming xenophobic hatred as if the person “would” say such things because they are an “FEB”.
The Scottish Episcopal Church is not "the local branch of the Anglican church" because it's not under the jurisdiction of what Charles would call ++Cantab, and it's not unique either because there's the Episcopal Church in the States. It's not called Anglican because it isn't Anglican.
I am English and live in England and I support whoever is playing against England to the hilt in any football match ever played because of the overall rise in national c**tishness with every victory in every competition.
Your view of the origins of the British Empire displays a borderline racist contempt for the contribution of the people of Wales and NI.
It is true that I spend more time in the Highlands n Islands than the central belt, but I have never, ever encountered anything worse than being treated as a bit of an idiot, and I get that in England too, so we can't rule out a non racist explanation.
Don’t call me a racist. I didn’t say the English and the Scots were the only countries that set up and ran the British empire. You might as well call yourself racist for not mentioning Irish people from the 26 counties in the days when the UK was the UKGBI.
I take your point about the Scottish Episcopalians but it is pedantic because they are part of the Anglican Communion which is what I meant. They recognise the Archbishop of Canterbury as the head of it if not his “jurisdiction”. I do not know the precise ecclesiastical terminology but of course the Scottish Episcopalians are Anglican. They are part of the Anglican Communion, unlike the Church of Scotland and the Calvinist Scottish churches which would run a mile rather than appoint a bishop.
England is a strong brand around the world, and if you hate the English despite being English then that’s your problem because I was talking about how the English are perceived by others and so was Malcolm. Just that he was wrong because the only country where hatred of the English is widespread is Scotland. There are parts of Wales where it’s quite widespread but they’re only parts and most of Wales is fairly positive about the English.
During your stays in Scotland haven’t you noticed things like the tea and the mustard? Perhaps you should come and live in Scotland rather than simply visit and you might realise that if you are ethnically English and you express a view about how things should be here that is at loggerheads with the views of some ethnic Scots, your ethnicity will probably be an issue just as much as if you are black English in conversation with a group of white English BNP supporters. Scotland is back in the 1950s as far as multiculturalism is concerned, and the whole “independence within the EU” line is a dog whistle, bearing in mind EU membership requires a hard border on the Tweed because rUK will be outside the CU and SM and there is no GFA equivalent and nor would the EU agree one. The line is the political equivalent of supporting whoever is playing against England. The message is “We’re not inward looking; it’s only the English that we hate.”
I have lived in Scotland.
I just don't think there is much mileage in all this nation a hates/resents/envies nation b discussion. We should deprecate those feelings and those who seek to exploit them, but there's not a lot you can do about them. You just have to accept their political consequences.
I don't hate England i just like it when we lose the footie.
Comments
I am not trolling when I say that you are no conservative, it is just the case. What scuppers you is the quite likely hypothetical case of a referendum on abolishing the monarchy. If you would respect the will of the people on that you are no tory, and if you wouldn't then why do you have to on brexit?
As a bonus point you are also the most virulent anti-unionist posting on this site, because no one could seriously support a union when they loathed a member of it as much as you hate Scotland. Subjugationist, perhaps.
There is nothing unconservative about wanting to regain sovereignty from Brussels .
I do not loathe Scotland, I want it to stay in the UK, I loathe the SNP
It is easy to forget that just over a year ago in May 2019 the LDs had outpolled Lab 19.6% to 13.7% in national elections, including in London.
Last few years have been very volatile. The current apparent stasis may not last.
https://www.englishwhisky.co.uk/
You could well be on to something although n=1
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/513131-inside-ed-markeys-unlikely-emergence-as-an-icon-to-gen-z-activists
I think he might just see off the young Kennedy challenge.
Such a nasty country!
Similarly I know many Europeans who post Brexit love going to Remain voting London, Oxford, the Cotswolds or Edinburgh or Bath etc but would not touch Brexitshire with a bargepole
https://twitter.com/joekennedy/status/1297257055217160193?s=20
It looks close
https://twitter.com/rmc031/status/1296519761518567429?s=20
Ave it now comes off the fence and endorses Donald Trump as president of the USA
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746?term=vaccine&recrs=abdf&cond=COVID-19&phase=0123&sort=nwst&draw=2
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html?amp
https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1297219655220822016?s=21
(And surely, n=2 ?
They're showing The Bridge again on BBC4. On atm.
Con 39% Lab 38% BP 13% LD 6%.
Interesting race, to say the least. Very 21st-century, yet with echoes of political paddywackery going back over a century to the days James Michael Curley did battle versus John "Honey Fitz" Fitzgerald, young JK's great-great-grandfather (as in the infamous "Bubbles" affair).
BTW Kennedy HAD been leading for months in the polls, despite a number of gaffes and missed opportunities, until about a month ago, when - coincidentally or not - the Boston Globe endorsed Markey.
Now, it typically takes 2-3 weeks for the immune system to develop the required neutralising antibodies (although it's possible a heightened T cell response may come sooner), so we can probably expect the first meaningful (albeit limited) data to arrive imminently, perhaps as soon as next week.
I am English and live in England and I support whoever is playing against England to the hilt in any football match ever played because of the overall rise in national c**tishness with every victory in every competition.
Your view of the origins of the British Empire displays a borderline racist contempt for the contribution of the people of Wales and NI.
It is true that I spend more time in the Highlands n Islands than the central belt, but I have never, ever encountered anything worse than being treated as a bit of an idiot, and I get that in England too, so we can't rule out a non racist explanation.
I take your point about the Scottish Episcopalians but it is pedantic because they are part of the Anglican Communion which is what I meant. They recognise the Archbishop of Canterbury as the head of it if not his “jurisdiction”. I do not know the precise ecclesiastical terminology but of course the Scottish Episcopalians are Anglican. They are part of the Anglican Communion, unlike the Church of Scotland and the Calvinist Scottish churches which would run a mile rather than appoint a bishop.
England is a strong brand around the world, and if you hate the English despite being English then that’s your problem because I was talking about how the English are perceived by others and so was Malcolm. Just that he was wrong because the only country where hatred of the English is widespread is Scotland. There are parts of Wales where it’s quite widespread but they’re only parts and most of Wales is fairly positive about the English.
During your stays in Scotland haven’t you noticed things like the tea and the mustard? Perhaps you should come and live in Scotland rather than simply visit and you might realise that if you are ethnically English and you express a view about how things should be here that is at loggerheads with the views of some ethnic Scots, your ethnicity will probably be an issue just as much as if you are black English in conversation with a group of white English BNP supporters. Scotland is back in the 1950s as far as multiculturalism is concerned, and the whole “independence within the EU” line is a dog whistle, bearing in mind EU membership requires a hard border on the Tweed because rUK will be outside the CU and SM and there is no GFA equivalent and nor would the EU agree one. The line is the political equivalent of supporting whoever is playing against England. The message is “We’re not inward looking; it’s only the English that we hate.”
You'll meet Charles if you stick around.
I just don't think there is much mileage in all this nation a hates/resents/envies nation b discussion. We should deprecate those feelings and those who seek to exploit them, but there's not a lot you can do about them. You just have to accept their political consequences.
I don't hate England i just like it when we lose the footie.
Yes, the Wales/NI point was a weak one.