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  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Pulpstar said:

    FYI,

    Fox has a list out of the 2020 DNC speakers.

    https://www.fox6now.com/news/democrats-announce-additional-speakers-schedule-updates-for-2020-dnc

    Not sure how much this means but five of the eight candidates mentioned by the NYT are mentioned as speakers. I wouldn't imagine they would speak twice (as VP and a speaker).

    There are three names not in the confirmed list of speakers are Rice, Demmings and Bass

    Very interesting. It might mean nothing, but I'm laying Harris back to zero off of that.
    Me too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
  • Mr. B, I wonder if the Russian vaccine even works.

    As every vaccine in development has reported very positive results I would think it does
    Have you looked at Russia's other recent scientific behaviour/organisations?

    Such as their space program....
    I realise that they lie a lot but without Russia Tim Peake may have struggled to get into Space.

    In regard to the vaccine I will be amazed if one is not readily available in the UK within 6 months. I think that the people creating the vaccines know that they work already.
    At the time yes because the west was preparing the next generation of vehicles.

    Do you expect Peake or his successors will travel much in Soyuz capsules going forwards?

    While the west looks to the future Russia has spent years riding on the coattails of its past. Is that going to change?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    Speaking as part of the EU would get away from being seen as the old Imperial aggressor, but also increase our economic clout as rhe EU27 market is a more substantial one.

    Just speculation though, and that ship has sailed. We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
  • Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Depends upon force still.

    If someone is going to attempt to physically pick up either a car or brush and hit me with it then I'd rather they attempt that with the car. While I would calmly walk away from such a psycho.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    Speaking as part of the EU would get away from being seen as the old Imperial aggressor, but also increase our economic clout as rhe EU27 market is a more substantial one.

    Just speculation though, and that ship has sailed. We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
    That sounds like a 'no, but itd be nice to think it would now it cannot be tested'.

    I think the idea it would prevent accusations of imperialism is unlikely, and theres no reason the EU could not add its weight to a non EU issue.
  • The solution to asylum seekers crossing the channel is to make claimants apply at a British Embassy before permission is granted to enter the country. If necessary change the law to leave the treaty saying in country claims are permissable.

    While I have your attention, people might be persuaded back to their offices if rail fares are cut by 50%.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. B, cheers for that reply.

    Mr. Pioneers, congrats, hope you get the gig.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Arent all covid vaccines going to be tested by cutting corners? Isnt that how they plan to do it in 6-18 months instead of a few years?

    I dont see why there would be a global consensus on exactly how many corners can be cut, it will depend on risk appetite and how big the covid problem is locally.
    They are talking about accelerating the process by increasing the resources to review each stage. As opposed to the usual PutItInTheInTrayAndIllGetToIt thing.

    That is different to missing out of shortening the actual trials.
    Damn it! If I'd only known that we don't need to test vaccines to make sure that they are safe and effective I could have made a fortune in early April.
    The Russians are saying they have tested it. Their standards may differ from ours, possibly for good reasons.

    Would I be more confident in the UK process than the Russian one, yes and by a reasonable margin, but not to the extent of blindly mocking the Russian one without expert knowledge.

    Given the Uk has some of the highest death rates from this disease globally it is curious how disdainful we are of different approaches in different countries.
    Approaches to clinical trials don't differ all that much, and the time required to conduct them, and data requirements for valid statistical analysis don't change just because it's a different country.

    Russia have undoubtedly taken a risky shortcut by rolling out a vaccine about which they simply cannot know if it has dangerous side effects. They may consider that a reasonable risk to take in the circumstances, and they might indeed get away with it, but it is undeniably a risk.
    All vaccines come with some side effects and some benefits. The balance between benefits and risks must vary by country. To give a simple theoretical example:

    A vaccine for a random disease might be safe for most but particularly dangerous for over 80s. Two countries with average life expectancy of 55 and 80 might come to a different conclusion as to the risks they are willing to take with this vaccine.

    Also if this virus was even more deadly we would be taking more shortcuts, and rightly so, if it was less deadly we would be taking fewer shortcuts.

    By shortening the testing period to a few months, as we are doing, we are clearly less capable of spotting long term health impacts of a particular vaccine, that might not be observable until a couple of years after its been taken.
    Of course.
    But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects.

    One of the reasons I am, on balance, in favour of running challenge trials is that they would give efficacy results much more quickly. They are potentially dangerous, but tens of thousands of people (including a number of medics and scientists, who are well aware of the risks) have volunteered for them.
    "But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects."

    This seems unlikely, it would be an extraordinary risk from a government that is calculating and long term in outlook. Efficacy might well be poor but rolling out a mass vaccination program with significant side effects before the rest of the world is one of the few ways they may lose power in the next few years.

    Given losing power likely means death or jail for the decision makers, Id assume they have seen enough data to believe side effects are limited.
    They have tested it in perhaps a couple of hundred people, and that fairly recently.
    At this point, they really can have little idea about anything but the most obvious side effects.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
    Issuing joint statements with the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,719
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    Speaking as part of the EU would get away from being seen as the old Imperial aggressor, but also increase our economic clout as rhe EU27 market is a more substantial one.

    Just speculation though, and that ship has sailed. We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
    That sounds like a 'no, but itd be nice to think it would now it cannot be tested'.

    I think the idea it would prevent accusations of imperialism is unlikely, and theres no reason the EU could not add its weight to a non EU issue.
    Of course it is speculative either way.

    The EU could add its weight, but less likely to without us speaking at the top table. We have lost a lot of friends over Brexit.
  • Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
    Issuing joint statements with the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
    Five Eyes nations have always been our closest defence allies, even when we were in the EU.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    Do you think the situation in Hong Kong would be any different if we were still in the EU (genuine question)?
    Speaking as part of the EU would get away from being seen as the old Imperial aggressor, but also increase our economic clout as rhe EU27 market is a more substantial one.

    Just speculation though, and that ship has sailed. We are on our own now, in a way that we haven't been for some centuries.
    That sounds like a 'no, but itd be nice to think it would now it cannot be tested'.

    I think the idea it would prevent accusations of imperialism is unlikely, and theres no reason the EU could not add its weight to a non EU issue.
    Of course it is speculative either way.

    The EU could add its weight, but less likely to without us speaking at the top table. We have lost a lot of friends over Brexit.
    What weight? When practically speaking did the EU ever exert it's weight in a defence issue?

    And we haven't been at the EUs top table since at least 1999.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    I was pretty sure this would be the case. Sweeties for everyone. We'll see the same with the UK Government. In their own ways, neither can afford to take unpopular decisions.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    A cynic might suggest that's only happened because it leaves a huge landmine in front of the Westminster parliament.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,213
    xyzxyzxyz said:

    The solution to asylum seekers crossing the channel is to make claimants apply at a British Embassy before permission is granted to enter the country. If necessary change the law to leave the treaty saying in country claims are permissable.

    While I have your attention, people might be persuaded back to their offices if rail fares are cut by 50%.

    Isn't the problem that countries with civil wars (or other actively persecuting governments) are the ones most likely to lack British embassies?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Depends upon force still.

    If someone is going to attempt to physically pick up either a car or brush and hit me with it then I'd rather they attempt that with the car. While I would calmly walk away from such a psycho.
    Unless your assailant was a certain Boris "Muscles" Johnson who probably could pick up a car.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Scott_xP said:
    A ridiculous decision. There is no way on God's green earth this year's cohort would have achieved those grades in exam conditions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Scott_xP said:
    Fucking hell.

    Whatever I was expecting, it wasn’t that.

    England don’t have time to do the same before Thursday, but it’s kneecapped OFQUAL. They will be totally unable to say their algorithm is credible now.

    You also wonder how long this will take to organise, although most students presumably know by now what they were predicted.

    Amazingly, therefore, this has probably made matters worse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,213

    Migration.

    Throwing numbers around here (I haven't checked them) but I think something like the following would be sustainable and fair (note we wouldn't distinguish - officially - between EU and non-EU in the policy):

    Asylum: 80k
    Non-EU work: 100k
    EU work: 60k
    Family reunions: 20k
    Other: 30k

    REmove students out of the figures, unless they go "dark" or change their status to working visas. Against that, you'd have 75-100k emigrating the other way each year.

    I think as long as net immigration is controlled and bounces around in the 150-200k box pa it will be accepted as sustainable and fair.

    Anything much higher than that and it will remain a live political issue.

    IIRC, the last decade has seen annual asylum arrivals in the UK of between 10k and 40k. The numbers have largely depended on the number of wars and other rebellions in Africa and Asia.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    Migration.

    Throwing numbers around here (I haven't checked them) but I think something like the following would be sustainable and fair (note we wouldn't distinguish - officially - between EU and non-EU in the policy):

    Asylum: 80k
    Non-EU work: 100k
    EU work: 60k
    Family reunions: 20k
    Other: 30k

    REmove students out of the figures, unless they go "dark" or change their status to working visas. Against that, you'd have 75-100k emigrating the other way each year.

    I think as long as net immigration is controlled and bounces around in the 150-200k box pa it will be accepted as sustainable and fair.

    Anything much higher than that and it will remain a live political issue.

    Did you mean to propose a ~300% increase in asylum seekers?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    A cynic might suggest that's only happened because it leaves a huge landmine in front of the Westminster parliament.
    I would say that is a very much secondary matter - there were much more immediate concerns.

    But surely government as well as parliament in London, too.

    And NB the announcement for a longer term review of exams in view of the prevailing paradigm that the relative rather than absolute mark is what counts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    Although at least the daftness around your son’s ComSci grade will be resolved.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    This puts it pretty well:

    https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/08/11/the-russian-vaccine
    Many will have heard Russia’s announcement that they have approved a coronavirus vaccine. I’ve already had several people ask me what I think of it, so let me be clear: I think it’s a ridiculous publicity stunt. If it’s supposed to make Russia look like some sort of biotechnology powerhouse, then as far as I’m concerned it does the opposite. It makes them look desperate, like the nation-state equivalent of a bunch of penny-stock promoters. The new airliner design prototype just got off the ground – time to sell tickets and load it full of passengers, right?

    Why so negative? Look at what’s being claimed – the first coronavirus vaccine to receive regulatory approval. But “regulatory approval” is not some international gold standard, and these sorts of decisions show you why. Let’s be honest: there is no way that you can responsibly “approve” a vaccine after it’s only been into human trials for what numerous reports say is less than two months. That’s about enough time to do the first steps, a Phase I trial that gives you some idea of immune response across more than one dose. It is simply not enough time to do a reasonable efficacy workup as well, and absolutely not enough time to get any sort of reading on safety. Here’s a good article going into those timelines in more depth.

    Look, we’re pushing safety and efficacy trials harder than they’ve ever been pushed already, and many people already are jumpy about the safety evaluations of the various vaccine candidates as it is. Declaring regulatory approval and taking a public victory lap in the world press before you’ve even done that safety work at all inspires pity rather than respect. The various news stories on this “approval” generally have quotes from outside experts saying that it’s important to see if Russia is following best practices and such, but that’s easy to answer. They aren’t. There are several other vaccines that could be “approved” already if we thought that this was a good idea. But it isn’t....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    Although at least the daftness around your son’s ComSci grade will be resolved.
    Probably. Its not clear whether they are going to correct bands as well as grades. We have sat and listened to MSPs of just embarrassing incoherence discussing "dirty camping" for nearly an hour (a result of them shutting the toilets on sites) to listen to the statement but he didn't make that clear.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    A ridiculous decision. There is no way on God's green earth this year's cohort would have achieved those grades in exam conditions.
    As a cohort no, but individually there is no way that individuals all deserved their grades to be downgraded either.

    If you randomly increase 25% of people's wages by 25% and randomly decrease 25% by 25% then overall inflation will be close to zero but is that fair to those who have been cut to get the overall figure down?

    There is no easy answer here, unless you can look at the individuals as individuals as judge them on their own merit and not as part of a cohort. The teachers are meant to have done that, it doesn't look like SQA did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    Although at least the daftness around your son’s ComSci grade will be resolved.
    Probably. Its not clear whether they are going to correct bands as well as grades. We have sat and listened to MSPs of just embarrassing incoherence discussing "dirty camping" for nearly an hour (a result of them shutting the toilets on sites) to listen to the statement but he didn't make that clear.
    I think it will have to. Otherwise they lay themselves wide open to legal challenge.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    xyzxyzxyz said:

    The solution to asylum seekers crossing the channel is to make claimants apply at a British Embassy before permission is granted to enter the country. If necessary change the law to leave the treaty saying in country claims are permissable.

    While I have your attention, people might be persuaded back to their offices if rail fares are cut by 50%.

    Isn't the problem that countries with civil wars (or other actively persecuting governments) are the ones most likely to lack British embassies?
    And persecuting governments will keep a close eye on who visits the embassy. And embassies would need to have permanent asylum tribunals in situ. And granting asylum doesn't generate a valid travel document, so they've still got to illegally get here unless you put them in the embassy bag.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    There is perhaps a growing dump-Trump consensus ?

    They saw record profits under Trump. Bankers are backing Biden anyway.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/11/bankers-back-biden-trump-393297
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    Nigelb said:

    There is perhaps a growing dump-Trump consensus ?

    They saw record profits under Trump. Bankers are backing Biden anyway.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/11/bankers-back-biden-trump-393297

    I read that as dumb, which of course still works.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    Although at least the daftness around your son’s ComSci grade will be resolved.
    Probably. Its not clear whether they are going to correct bands as well as grades. We have sat and listened to MSPs of just embarrassing incoherence discussing "dirty camping" for nearly an hour (a result of them shutting the toilets on sites) to listen to the statement but he didn't make that clear.
    I think it will have to. Otherwise they lay themselves wide open to legal challenge.
    I think so too. They have just run away from the entire model. Unfortunately it is far too late to have a sensible alternative so its just sweeties for all. The management of whelks and stores come to mind.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,805
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    I have no idea what you guys are talking about but it sounds very rude.
  • Am I hallucinating? Or are the Scottish Tories campaigning against an issue that the Westminster Tories are about to repeat?

    My boy is due exam results on Thursday. Is autistic. This is confusing enough already FFS
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    As a matter of interest what was your solution to this year's exam situation? If I missed it amongst all the sound and the fury, apologies.
  • Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
  • Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    A ridiculous decision. There is no way on God's green earth this year's cohort would have achieved those grades in exam conditions.
    As a cohort no, but individually there is no way that individuals all deserved their grades to be downgraded either.

    If you randomly increase 25% of people's wages by 25% and randomly decrease 25% by 25% then overall inflation will be close to zero but is that fair to those who have been cut to get the overall figure down?

    There is no easy answer here, unless you can look at the individuals as individuals as judge them on their own merit and not as part of a cohort. The teachers are meant to have done that, it doesn't look like SQA did.
    The trouble is that most subject cohorts in most schools are way too small a sample to normalise; you get good years and bad years. So applying some sort of external normalisation was inevitable.

    Whoever described this as educational Quantitative Easing last night was right. It's inflationary to upgrade, and unfair on candidates with more rigorous teachers. But better that than state-imposed bankrupting of some individuals.

    I'm all for "stop digging when you are in a hole", and this chain of events was predictable from about March. But blimey. If universities haven't already got everyone's A Level grades, (and I think they will have them by now) they will get them tomorrow. How they heck are they going to manage this?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    rcs1000 said:

    xyzxyzxyz said:

    The solution to asylum seekers crossing the channel is to make claimants apply at a British Embassy before permission is granted to enter the country. If necessary change the law to leave the treaty saying in country claims are permissable.

    While I have your attention, people might be persuaded back to their offices if rail fares are cut by 50%.

    Isn't the problem that countries with civil wars (or other actively persecuting governments) are the ones most likely to lack British embassies?
    I sense that is a feature rather than a bug in this cunning plan.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited August 2020

    Am I hallucinating? Or are the Scottish Tories campaigning against an issue that the Westminster Tories are about to repeat?

    My boy is due exam results on Thursday. Is autistic. This is confusing enough already FFS

    Yes, that's quite normal for Unionist philosophical analysis. More recisely they are complaining that the SNP minority government was about to do X even when the English Tory majority goverrnment was about to do X. Makes you wonder what the point of calling themselves unionists is.

    Though I am getting the impression from discussions here the real problem is the underlying philosophy of the exam system which was common to both exam boards. Wales however seems to be doing it differently ...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Arent all covid vaccines going to be tested by cutting corners? Isnt that how they plan to do it in 6-18 months instead of a few years?

    I dont see why there would be a global consensus on exactly how many corners can be cut, it will depend on risk appetite and how big the covid problem is locally.
    They are talking about accelerating the process by increasing the resources to review each stage. As opposed to the usual PutItInTheInTrayAndIllGetToIt thing.

    That is different to missing out of shortening the actual trials.
    Damn it! If I'd only known that we don't need to test vaccines to make sure that they are safe and effective I could have made a fortune in early April.
    The Russians are saying they have tested it. Their standards may differ from ours, possibly for good reasons.

    Would I be more confident in the UK process than the Russian one, yes and by a reasonable margin, but not to the extent of blindly mocking the Russian one without expert knowledge.

    Given the Uk has some of the highest death rates from this disease globally it is curious how disdainful we are of different approaches in different countries.
    Approaches to clinical trials don't differ all that much, and the time required to conduct them, and data requirements for valid statistical analysis don't change just because it's a different country.

    Russia have undoubtedly taken a risky shortcut by rolling out a vaccine about which they simply cannot know if it has dangerous side effects. They may consider that a reasonable risk to take in the circumstances, and they might indeed get away with it, but it is undeniably a risk.
    All vaccines come with some side effects and some benefits. The balance between benefits and risks must vary by country. To give a simple theoretical example:

    A vaccine for a random disease might be safe for most but particularly dangerous for over 80s. Two countries with average life expectancy of 55 and 80 might come to a different conclusion as to the risks they are willing to take with this vaccine.

    Also if this virus was even more deadly we would be taking more shortcuts, and rightly so, if it was less deadly we would be taking fewer shortcuts.

    By shortening the testing period to a few months, as we are doing, we are clearly less capable of spotting long term health impacts of a particular vaccine, that might not be observable until a couple of years after its been taken.
    Of course.
    But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects.

    One of the reasons I am, on balance, in favour of running challenge trials is that they would give efficacy results much more quickly. They are potentially dangerous, but tens of thousands of people (including a number of medics and scientists, who are well aware of the risks) have volunteered for them.
    "But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects."

    This seems unlikely, it would be an extraordinary risk from a government that is calculating and long term in outlook. Efficacy might well be poor but rolling out a mass vaccination program with significant side effects before the rest of the world is one of the few ways they may lose power in the next few years.

    Given losing power likely means death or jail for the decision makers, Id assume they have seen enough data to believe side effects are limited.
    They have tested it in perhaps a couple of hundred people, and that fairly recently.
    At this point, they really can have little idea about anything but the most obvious side effects.
    Perhaps they are just using semantics? I see its only being made available in 10-15 out of 85 Russian regions, and they are not starting production for another month.

    During the initial approved stage restrict the number of people with access to the vaccine and treat it like a large phase 3 trial? Claim they got there first even if its largely in parallel with western efforts.

    Would that fit?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

  • ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Paid for by your winnings on the 2015 Derby winner, Golden Horn, no doubt.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,213
    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    Although at least the daftness around your son’s ComSci grade will be resolved.
    Probably. Its not clear whether they are going to correct bands as well as grades. We have sat and listened to MSPs of just embarrassing incoherence discussing "dirty camping" for nearly an hour (a result of them shutting the toilets on sites) to listen to the statement but he didn't make that clear.
    I think it will have to. Otherwise they lay themselves wide open to legal challenge.
    I think so too. They have just run away from the entire model. Unfortunately it is far too late to have a sensible alternative so its just sweeties for all. The management of whelks and stores come to mind.
    But noit everyone gets a box of Quality Street - there is still relative ranking by abiloity, albeit this year is in a different numerical currency for absolute marks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    Scott_xP said:
    Seems like they're praying that it wont cause as much furore so wont need to act, but that seems improbable. Might as well ready a u turn statement good yo go.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    The Man with the Golden Horn...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Am I hallucinating? Or are the Scottish Tories campaigning against an issue that the Westminster Tories are about to repeat?

    My boy is due exam results on Thursday. Is autistic. This is confusing enough already FFS

    Same here - twin B should be off to Leeds Conservatoire come what may (I think she needs 3 D's at most). twin A is autistic but was only classified as such in March. She might have got 2 A's but equally she might have got D's and both results would be completely justified.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    edited August 2020

    Am I hallucinating? Or are the Scottish Tories campaigning against an issue that the Westminster Tories are about to repeat?

    My boy is due exam results on Thursday. Is autistic. This is confusing enough already FFS

    Looking ahead more than 5 seconds is for chumps.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    Arent all covid vaccines going to be tested by cutting corners? Isnt that how they plan to do it in 6-18 months instead of a few years?

    I dont see why there would be a global consensus on exactly how many corners can be cut, it will depend on risk appetite and how big the covid problem is locally.
    They are talking about accelerating the process by increasing the resources to review each stage. As opposed to the usual PutItInTheInTrayAndIllGetToIt thing.

    That is different to missing out of shortening the actual trials.
    Damn it! If I'd only known that we don't need to test vaccines to make sure that they are safe and effective I could have made a fortune in early April.
    The Russians are saying they have tested it. Their standards may differ from ours, possibly for good reasons.

    Would I be more confident in the UK process than the Russian one, yes and by a reasonable margin, but not to the extent of blindly mocking the Russian one without expert knowledge.

    Given the Uk has some of the highest death rates from this disease globally it is curious how disdainful we are of different approaches in different countries.
    Approaches to clinical trials don't differ all that much, and the time required to conduct them, and data requirements for valid statistical analysis don't change just because it's a different country.

    Russia have undoubtedly taken a risky shortcut by rolling out a vaccine about which they simply cannot know if it has dangerous side effects. They may consider that a reasonable risk to take in the circumstances, and they might indeed get away with it, but it is undeniably a risk.
    All vaccines come with some side effects and some benefits. The balance between benefits and risks must vary by country. To give a simple theoretical example:

    A vaccine for a random disease might be safe for most but particularly dangerous for over 80s. Two countries with average life expectancy of 55 and 80 might come to a different conclusion as to the risks they are willing to take with this vaccine.

    Also if this virus was even more deadly we would be taking more shortcuts, and rightly so, if it was less deadly we would be taking fewer shortcuts.

    By shortening the testing period to a few months, as we are doing, we are clearly less capable of spotting long term health impacts of a particular vaccine, that might not be observable until a couple of years after its been taken.
    Of course.
    But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects.

    One of the reasons I am, on balance, in favour of running challenge trials is that they would give efficacy results much more quickly. They are potentially dangerous, but tens of thousands of people (including a number of medics and scientists, who are well aware of the risks) have volunteered for them.
    "But Russia are rolling out a mass vaccination program before they have any clear idea of efficacy or side effects."

    This seems unlikely, it would be an extraordinary risk from a government that is calculating and long term in outlook. Efficacy might well be poor but rolling out a mass vaccination program with significant side effects before the rest of the world is one of the few ways they may lose power in the next few years.

    Given losing power likely means death or jail for the decision makers, Id assume they have seen enough data to believe side effects are limited.
    They have tested it in perhaps a couple of hundred people, and that fairly recently.
    At this point, they really can have little idea about anything but the most obvious side effects.
    Perhaps they are just using semantics? I see its only being made available in 10-15 out of 85 Russian regions, and they are not starting production for another month.

    During the initial approved stage restrict the number of people with access to the vaccine and treat it like a large phase 3 trial? Claim they got there first even if its largely in parallel with western efforts.

    Would that fit?
    It's possible.
    Given how little information they are releasing, anything's possible.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,131
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Fucking hell.

    Whatever I was expecting, it wasn’t that.

    England don’t have time to do the same before Thursday, but it’s kneecapped OFQUAL. They will be totally unable to say their algorithm is credible now.

    You also wonder how long this will take to organise, although most students presumably know by now what they were predicted.

    Amazingly, therefore, this has probably made matters worse.
    So the SNP have turned a cock up on their own watch into a massive time bomb for the UK government on its own cock up?

    Even in defeat, victory?
  • kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    edited August 2020
    Nigelb said:



    They have tested it in perhaps a couple of hundred people, and that fairly recently.
    At this point, they really can have little idea about anything but the most obvious side effects.

    The idea of producing lots of doses parallel with testing is reasonable if the early studies are encouraging - other countries are doing the same. However, dishing it out to lots of people without proper monitoring sounds very dodgy.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681
    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Is it appropriate to mention that if Gove/Cummings hadn't removed almost all course work then there might be summat other than teacher assessment for GCSE?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Seems like they're praying that it wont cause as much furore so wont need to act, but that seems improbable. Might as well ready a u turn statement good yo go.
    It will cause much more of a furore, because they relied far more heavily on this silly statistical model that Swinney has just admitted was total BS.

    I honestly do not know what to make of this. The system was bad. The implementation was worse. The delivery was appalling. The u-turn is catastrophic.

    I really think the only thing we can say for certainty out of all this is that the exam system as we know it is finished, because who would have confidence in these morons? Their figures have managed to make Lukashenko’s look almost reliable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    I’ve had to fill in A-levels on every job application I’ve ever done, including lecturing posts.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage. They really should have written off the upcoming academic year for those doing A-Levels and had them sit the exams this autumn. Sure, it's not great for those not wanting a gap year and it's not great for a lack of doctors/nurses coming through in five years or so, but we had time to plan for that.
  • ukpaul said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Migrants from France live in a country of peace, freedom and relative prosperity.

    Migrants from Hong Kong don't. They are under a yoke of oppression that gets heavier by the day and we are partly responsible because they were once our colony.

    Our duty to them far outweighs our duty to those who love in peace and freedom in France.

    We should do all we can to help both groups.
    I don't think we have any obligation to people who live in foreign countries that are peaceful, free and prosperous. None whatsoever.
    I've not got a huge problem with the principle that the country of first safe arrival should process the asylum application.

    But I would say that coming from Britain due to the advantageous geography. Were I from Turkey, I'd have a massive problem with it as, I am sure, would you. And indeed Turkey gets many, many times the applications we do.

    However, the false claim is that the asylum seeker himself is acting unlawfully by putting in an application in a country other than the one in which he first sets foot. That's simply a lie put about by people who should know better.

    What is required is more effective agreements between states, which presumably would come at a cost to geographically advantaged countries like the UK, Ireland, and Denmark, as there is little incentive for countries on the Med in playing ball with the UK dumping people back wherever they reckon they might have passed through.

    Imagine a world where asylum seekers are pooled and redistributed irrespective of where they made the claim. You’d be fucked off royally to end up in Iceland!

    But I do agree with your general point. It’s why I fully support the 0.7% foreign aid budget, even if I might not always agree with how it is spent.
    Iceland is one step up from St. Helena, which was the proposal (later said to be a joke but for all the world reading like it was deadly serious) from one contributor here.
    Iceland is very far from being St Helena. It's a small country but very economically developed etc.

    The proposal to pool refugees and take them from camps near the conflict zones is a good one. A pity that it was not done.

    The people crossing the channel are mostly economic migrants. "Mostly" because such things are not black and white (ha). Many are leaving a fucked up country, where they could stay....
    Iceland is a jackpot for anyone seeking a new country. For one thing, they have enough geothermal energy to keep heating costs low and enough left over to heat the pavements in downtown Reykjavik! Lots of lovely space if you want it, stunning scenery, decent entertainment options and you can easily get by with speaking English.
    But the food? I have never seen an Icelandic restaurant.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    dixiedean said:

    Is it appropriate to mention that if Gove/Cummings hadn't removed almost all course work then there might be summat other than teacher assessment for GCSE?

    Actually, they didn’t accept coursework even where it survived. Their argument was that people might not have finished it.

    So I’m not sure that would have helped.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    Scottish Tories obviously affected by a poor education system.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1293082941791313920?s=20

    Be interesting to see if England follow Scottish Government in admitting that it was a mistake under the exceptional circumstances to use SQA to modify grades.
    Great news for my grandson whose place at college was to be lost based on his downgrade in Maths, now rescinded and his grade restored. Also saves me £14K for another years school fees.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    ukpaul said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Migrants from France live in a country of peace, freedom and relative prosperity.

    Migrants from Hong Kong don't. They are under a yoke of oppression that gets heavier by the day and we are partly responsible because they were once our colony.

    Our duty to them far outweighs our duty to those who love in peace and freedom in France.

    We should do all we can to help both groups.
    I don't think we have any obligation to people who live in foreign countries that are peaceful, free and prosperous. None whatsoever.
    I've not got a huge problem with the principle that the country of first safe arrival should process the asylum application.

    But I would say that coming from Britain due to the advantageous geography. Were I from Turkey, I'd have a massive problem with it as, I am sure, would you. And indeed Turkey gets many, many times the applications we do.

    However, the false claim is that the asylum seeker himself is acting unlawfully by putting in an application in a country other than the one in which he first sets foot. That's simply a lie put about by people who should know better.

    What is required is more effective agreements between states, which presumably would come at a cost to geographically advantaged countries like the UK, Ireland, and Denmark, as there is little incentive for countries on the Med in playing ball with the UK dumping people back wherever they reckon they might have passed through.

    Imagine a world where asylum seekers are pooled and redistributed irrespective of where they made the claim. You’d be fucked off royally to end up in Iceland!

    But I do agree with your general point. It’s why I fully support the 0.7% foreign aid budget, even if I might not always agree with how it is spent.
    Iceland is one step up from St. Helena, which was the proposal (later said to be a joke but for all the world reading like it was deadly serious) from one contributor here.
    Iceland is very far from being St Helena. It's a small country but very economically developed etc.

    The proposal to pool refugees and take them from camps near the conflict zones is a good one. A pity that it was not done.

    The people crossing the channel are mostly economic migrants. "Mostly" because such things are not black and white (ha). Many are leaving a fucked up country, where they could stay....
    Iceland is a jackpot for anyone seeking a new country. For one thing, they have enough geothermal energy to keep heating costs low and enough left over to heat the pavements in downtown Reykjavik! Lots of lovely space if you want it, stunning scenery, decent entertainment options and you can easily get by with speaking English.
    But the food? I have never seen an Icelandic restaurant.
    Pickled shark not to your liking?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Incidentally I have been vaguely amused by people in the "We must reopen the economy NOW get children back in school" types suddenly getting cold feet when they remembered that they had family members in the teaching and suddenly everything is desperately unsafe and maybe we should slow down.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    A ridiculous decision. There is no way on God's green earth this year's cohort would have achieved those grades in exam conditions.
    Right and proper decision.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    malcolmg said:

    Scottish Tories obviously affected by a poor education system.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1293082941791313920?s=20

    Be interesting to see if England follow Scottish Government in admitting that it was a mistake under the exceptional circumstances to use SQA to modify grades.
    Great news for my grandson whose place at college was to be lost based on his downgrade in Maths, now rescinded and his grade restored. Also saves me £14K for another years school fees.
    Result! :)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020

    ukpaul said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Migrants from France live in a country of peace, freedom and relative prosperity.

    Migrants from Hong Kong don't. They are under a yoke of oppression that gets heavier by the day and we are partly responsible because they were once our colony.

    Our duty to them far outweighs our duty to those who love in peace and freedom in France.

    We should do all we can to help both groups.
    I don't think we have any obligation to people who live in foreign countries that are peaceful, free and prosperous. None whatsoever.
    I've not got a huge problem with the principle that the country of first safe arrival should process the asylum application.

    But I would say that coming from Britain due to the advantageous geography. Were I from Turkey, I'd have a massive problem with it as, I am sure, would you. And indeed Turkey gets many, many times the applications we do.

    However, the false claim is that the asylum seeker himself is acting unlawfully by putting in an application in a country other than the one in which he first sets foot. That's simply a lie put about by people who should know better.

    What is required is more effective agreements between states, which presumably would come at a cost to geographically advantaged countries like the UK, Ireland, and Denmark, as there is little incentive for countries on the Med in playing ball with the UK dumping people back wherever they reckon they might have passed through.

    Imagine a world where asylum seekers are pooled and redistributed irrespective of where they made the claim. You’d be fucked off royally to end up in Iceland!

    But I do agree with your general point. It’s why I fully support the 0.7% foreign aid budget, even if I might not always agree with how it is spent.
    Iceland is one step up from St. Helena, which was the proposal (later said to be a joke but for all the world reading like it was deadly serious) from one contributor here.
    Iceland is very far from being St Helena. It's a small country but very economically developed etc.

    The proposal to pool refugees and take them from camps near the conflict zones is a good one. A pity that it was not done.

    The people crossing the channel are mostly economic migrants. "Mostly" because such things are not black and white (ha). Many are leaving a fucked up country, where they could stay....
    Iceland is a jackpot for anyone seeking a new country. For one thing, they have enough geothermal energy to keep heating costs low and enough left over to heat the pavements in downtown Reykjavik! Lots of lovely space if you want it, stunning scenery, decent entertainment options and you can easily get by with speaking English.
    But the food? I have never seen an Icelandic restaurant.
    Very seafood based. I spent a few days in Rekjavik and the food there was brilliant. One of the best meals I've ever had was a seafood soup from a cafe there.

    It won't take off here but Iceland is also one of the only places in the world that legally eats whale meat.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Fucking hell.

    Whatever I was expecting, it wasn’t that.

    England don’t have time to do the same before Thursday, but it’s kneecapped OFQUAL. They will be totally unable to say their algorithm is credible now.

    You also wonder how long this will take to organise, although most students presumably know by now what they were predicted.

    Amazingly, therefore, this has probably made matters worse.
    So the SNP have turned a cock up on their own watch into a massive time bomb for the UK government on its own cock up?

    Even in defeat, victory?
    A great victory as well, they can buy the popcorn, slip of their shoes and await the horror show to come.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Carnyx said:

    Am I hallucinating? Or are the Scottish Tories campaigning against an issue that the Westminster Tories are about to repeat?

    My boy is due exam results on Thursday. Is autistic. This is confusing enough already FFS

    Yes, that's quite normal for Unionist philosophical analysis. More recisely they are complaining that the SNP minority government was about to do X even when the English Tory majority goverrnment was about to do X. Makes you wonder what the point of calling themselves unionists is.

    Though I am getting the impression from discussions here the real problem is the underlying philosophy of the exam system which was common to both exam boards. Wales however seems to be doing it differently ...
    No need to worry, Scottish Tories can change their principles easier than their shirts, they will be along soon with new ones , until London set them straight.
    Moothie will be getting new orders as we speak.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390
    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    Not so sure about that. A level grades remain a key metric long after uni. When interviewing I always gave them attention. AAA followed by 2/2 versus BBB followed by 2/1 for example - that's not a slam dunk winner either way. One would probe appropriately. Or try to.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    DavidL said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    Pass rates will now increase by up to 15%, devaluing every award for every child with frankly ridiculous grade inflation. This was justified on the basis that the cohort of 2020 had suffered in their education. So the logic is that you compensate people for getting less education by giving them higher marks!

    It is an absolute disgrace.
    As a matter of interest what was your solution to this year's exam situation? If I missed it amongst all the sound and the fury, apologies.
    As a Tory it would have been the discredited , "it only affects the poor and disadvantaged" so we think it is a great policy and they can always stack shelves.
  • The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    I’ve had to fill in A-levels on every job application I’ve ever done, including lecturing posts.
    I think they are deemed a better measure of academic intelligence than degree grade. Depending on subject and circumstances obviously.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
    They relied even more heavily on this algorithm. I think it accounts for 60% of GCSE grades.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited August 2020

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    The problem is, even if the pessimistic teachered pupil resits their exam and attains the expected grade the inflated grades still may well be higher for the over-optimistically graded student !
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    I’ve had to fill in A-levels on every job application I’ve ever done, including lecturing posts.
    I think they are deemed a better measure of academic intelligence than degree grade. Depending on subject and circumstances obviously.
    I would have said A-levels are harder than degrees, having taught both and studied both.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,681

    malcolmg said:

    Scottish Tories obviously affected by a poor education system.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1293082941791313920?s=20

    Be interesting to see if England follow Scottish Government in admitting that it was a mistake under the exceptional circumstances to use SQA to modify grades.
    Great news for my grandson whose place at college was to be lost based on his downgrade in Maths, now rescinded and his grade restored. Also saves me £14K for another years school fees.
    Result! :)
    There are going to be some for whom this is initially seen as a good result, but subsequently struggle at university and waste a lot more than £14k. I'm not saying that's the case in this specific example though.

    I blame the teachers. :smile:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    ukpaul said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Migrants from France live in a country of peace, freedom and relative prosperity.

    Migrants from Hong Kong don't. They are under a yoke of oppression that gets heavier by the day and we are partly responsible because they were once our colony.

    Our duty to them far outweighs our duty to those who love in peace and freedom in France.

    We should do all we can to help both groups.
    I don't think we have any obligation to people who live in foreign countries that are peaceful, free and prosperous. None whatsoever.
    I've not got a huge problem with the principle that the country of first safe arrival should process the asylum application.

    But I would say that coming from Britain due to the advantageous geography. Were I from Turkey, I'd have a massive problem with it as, I am sure, would you. And indeed Turkey gets many, many times the applications we do.

    However, the false claim is that the asylum seeker himself is acting unlawfully by putting in an application in a country other than the one in which he first sets foot. That's simply a lie put about by people who should know better.

    What is required is more effective agreements between states, which presumably would come at a cost to geographically advantaged countries like the UK, Ireland, and Denmark, as there is little incentive for countries on the Med in playing ball with the UK dumping people back wherever they reckon they might have passed through.

    Imagine a world where asylum seekers are pooled and redistributed irrespective of where they made the claim. You’d be fucked off royally to end up in Iceland!

    But I do agree with your general point. It’s why I fully support the 0.7% foreign aid budget, even if I might not always agree with how it is spent.
    Iceland is one step up from St. Helena, which was the proposal (later said to be a joke but for all the world reading like it was deadly serious) from one contributor here.
    Iceland is very far from being St Helena. It's a small country but very economically developed etc.

    The proposal to pool refugees and take them from camps near the conflict zones is a good one. A pity that it was not done.

    The people crossing the channel are mostly economic migrants. "Mostly" because such things are not black and white (ha). Many are leaving a fucked up country, where they could stay....
    Iceland is a jackpot for anyone seeking a new country. For one thing, they have enough geothermal energy to keep heating costs low and enough left over to heat the pavements in downtown Reykjavik! Lots of lovely space if you want it, stunning scenery, decent entertainment options and you can easily get by with speaking English.
    But the food? I have never seen an Icelandic restaurant.
    PLEASE don't get me started on the putrified shark even if it is washed down with quite a potent liqueur.

    I can taste it now. Absolutely disgusting. Top three disgusting things I've ever eaten.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage.
    This is going to be a motorway pileup that undermined a mainline bridge, causing four trains to plummet to destruction on the wreckage, before a Boeing 747 crashed on the confusion, topped off by a series of nuclear tipped tomahawk missiles.

    It is going to be awful beyond belief.
    But if the U turn has happened there seems to be less need for appeals anyway? Or am I missing something?
    Ummm...in 36 hours the students of England and Wales are due to be getting A-level results.

    Based on a similar formula to the one the Scottish government have just abandoned.

    I have been talking to one of my fellow heads of department. There seems to be a non-trivial possibility A-level and GCSE reaults days will have to be cancelled over this.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    ydoethur said:

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
    They relied even more heavily on this algorithm. I think it accounts for 60% of GCSE grades.
    So an even bigger clusterfcuk to come
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    Not so sure about that. A level grades remain a key metric long after uni. When interviewing I always gave them attention. AAA followed by 2/2 versus BBB followed by 2/1 for example - that's not a slam dunk winner either way. One would probe appropriately. Or try to.
    I'm guessing you were a AAA guy.

    No one really cares about A levels after the event.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
    I suspect fudged - and even if they weren't I suspect I could argue that things were fudged enough that it's a problem.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    malcolmg said:

    Scottish Tories obviously affected by a poor education system.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1293082941791313920?s=20

    Be interesting to see if England follow Scottish Government in admitting that it was a mistake under the exceptional circumstances to use SQA to modify grades.
    Great news for my grandson whose place at college was to be lost based on his downgrade in Maths, now rescinded and his grade restored. Also saves me £14K for another years school fees.
    Result! :)
    There are going to be some for whom this is initially seen as a good result, but subsequently struggle at university and waste a lot more than £14k. I'm not saying that's the case in this specific example though.

    I blame the teachers. :smile:
    Everyone always does.

    And then they wonder why we don’t supinely do what the public want of us.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    The thread has been cancelled in a U-turn and exam matters will be resat in the new thread ...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
    They relied even more heavily on this algorithm. I think it accounts for 60% of GCSE grades.
    So an even bigger clusterfcuk to come
    Oh yes 😰
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    ydoethur said:

    Stocky said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing that changes outside of a block like the EU is the raw size of your economy in relation to global leverage.
    Inside it doesn't matter so much, a small nation like Slovenia or Ireland has the same relationship with China that Germany or France does. Outside, well an economy of a hundred million people has (ceteris paribus) more clout than that of 50 million.
    One of the reasons I voted to remain in.

    I disagree.

    Your logic only works if the the larger bloc is united and focused with a common purpose. If it's not then the smaller and more focused nation will have more power on its own.

    This is true in any walk of life. A broom handle is much bigger than a dagger, but while I'd rather not be attacked with either if I am I'd rather be hit with the broom than stabbed with the dagger.

    Focus matters more than brute size.
    A car is bigger than a broom but I`d rather be hit by a broom.

    We could go on like this for ages.
    Are you giving him the brush-off?
    Oh jeez, look what I`ve done.
    I can’t just watch Gloucestershire all afternoon having spent all morning working.

    I must have some interest in life.

    Although I hope to have the chance to play with my organ a bit later.
    I thought your particular pleasure was the horn?
    The horn is on my organ.

    Full swell is an 8 foot golden horn.
    Exactly as I thought.

    A thought on the exam grades - they will forever be tainted due to being estimated rather than sat and so imo it is not a terrible thing if those estimates are on the generous side.
    Exam grades won't "forever be tainted". Once university places are confirmed, A-levels (and Scottish Highers) will be forgotten, as they are every year.
    I’ve had to fill in A-levels on every job application I’ve ever done, including lecturing posts.
    I think they are deemed a better measure of academic intelligence than degree grade. Depending on subject and circumstances obviously.
    I would have said A-levels are harder than degrees, having taught both and studied both.
    Not with maths.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,390

    The Scottish decision runs the risk of being grotesquely unfair to those students whose teachers gave an accurate, or even pessimistic, estimation of their predicted grades, in comparison to those who happen to have teachers who gave over-optimistic estimated grades. At the pass/fail border particularly this has very serious implications; some students who fail may in real life have done better than some who pass. This can't be right - it's too much of a lottery. England will face the same minefield on Thursday, this week and next week.

    Do you have a better solution?

    There are no easy answers but it's not reasonable for a consistently Straight A student to be downgraded in order to get the cohorts average down. Any downgrades should have been done by evidence on the individuals performance ... which doesn't appear to have happened.

    What happened in England and Wales? Where people treated as individuals or fudged as part of a cohort?
    You're right, there are no easy answers, but caving in is a political solution, not an equitable solution.

    Apart from estimated grades, my understanding is that teachers had to rank their students in order in each subject (certainly the case in England). Given that schools can appeal, rather than individuals, these rankings could be used to upgrade throughout a centre rather than at an individual level where that centre can provide evidence that the downgrading was not reasonable. Basing anything on teachers' predicted grades alone is fraught with difficulties and inconsistencies - just ask UCAS, or Ofsted.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    tlg86 said:

    eek said:

    Swinney withdraws all downgraded awards. All to be based on teacher assessments. Quite the climb down. Also increased grades left in place.

    PRIZES FOR ALL

    (dear lord that's a catastrophic call ... )
    Yep - and it's going to cause problems if England doesn't do the same...

    For university admissions? They already do different exams, so it might just come down to the universities themselves applying a model of their own.
    You missed the bit earlier today where Universities have been told to keep places open for inevitable appeals.

    Was that all UK universities or just Scottish ones?

    Either way, it is going to be carnage. They really should have written off the upcoming academic year for those doing A-Levels and had them sit the exams this autumn. Sure, it's not great for those not wanting a gap year and it's not great for a lack of doctors/nurses coming through in five years or so, but we had time to plan for that.
    They can't extend the academic year because who would be paying the money required to keep the universities open?
This discussion has been closed.