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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the papers are treating Sunak’s pandemic budget

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the papers are treating Sunak’s pandemic budget

Inevitably there is a split between what we used to call the tabloids which focus on the meal deal while the Guardian the Telegraph and the Financial Times highlight the big overall worries for the economy.

Read the full story here

«13456

Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited July 2020
    Frist (sic).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Second like Boris
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    IshmaelZ said:
    If everyone wore masks, a second wave would be far less likely.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    I see that on population adjusted case numbers, the US has now overtaken Peru and, of countries of any size, only Chile has more.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:
    If everyone wore masks, a second wave would be far less likely.
    Acting on that assumption, even if it turns out to be wrong, would not be massively costly for the nation.
    If it’s right, not acting on it might be very costly indeed.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited July 2020
    Deleted. I can't read.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    "But what happens if this acts as the catalyst for more people to be affected by the virus? One thing is for sure Covid19 has not gone away and incentivising people to get into situations where they could be affected might not with hindsight prove to be smart."

    Absolutely spot on.

    If we take a global rather than myopic view of this, which a responsible Government is required to do, it is evident that serious spikes are occurring where people drop their guard. Look at Melbourne today which has just gone back into a 6-week total lockdown.

    Coronavirus surges in the UK are a question of when not if.

    The Government probably do know this and have decided to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Beer, chips and ice-creams on the beach are more beneficial to the economy and so what if several thousands more people die?

    Imagine a hundred Zeebrugge disasters and that's what this Government are dishing you up.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Guardian: A cabinet row over Brexit has erupted into the open with Liz Truss, the international trade secretary, warning in a leaked letter that the PM’s border plans risk smuggling, damage to the UK’s international reputation and a legal challenge from the World Trade Organization.

    Truss wrote to the chancellor, Rishi Sunak, and Michael Gove on Wednesday warning of four “key areas of concern” over their plans for the border next January. Gove has unveiled a border regime for traders whereby customs and health checks for goods from the EU would not be imposed immediately and instead be phased in over six months.

    But Truss warns it would “be vulnerable” as the WTO could object to EU goods being treated differently to those from elsewhere which incur tariffs and quotas. She also raises concerns over smuggling because full checks will not be in place from 1 January.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2020
    Meh.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    Scott_xP said:


    Thats very good Scott
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    Fishing said:

    On topic, it was a bunch of gimmicks from a lightweight.
    Sunak will eventually face the problem all socialism does, when he runs out of other people's cash to piss away.

    Who does he have to give him advice? Surely it is just the third-raters hand-picked by Cummings to control the Treasury.....

    Now is the time to have experienced adults at the heart of government, not a bunch of spoiled brats.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    If the Chancellor just handed out money, probably most people would either save it or use it to repay debt. This makes sense for individuals but will not do much to get the economy moving. Sunak's half-price Happy Meal vouchers are aimed at getting money circulating again.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    "But what happens if this acts as the catalyst for more people to be affected by the virus? One thing is for sure Covid19 has not gone away and incentivising people to get into situations where they could be affected might not with hindsight prove to be smart."

    Absolutely spot on.

    If we take a global rather than myopic view of this, which a responsible Government is required to do, it is evident that serious spikes are occurring where people drop their guard. Look at Melbourne today which has just gone back into a 6-week total lockdown.

    Coronavirus surges in the UK are a question of when not if.

    The Government probably do know this and have decided to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Beer, chips and ice-creams on the beach are more beneficial to the economy and so what if several thousands more people die?

    Imagine a hundred Zeebrugge disasters and that's what this Government are dishing you up.

    As a genuine question just what would you do and just how would you propose funding the enormous economic black hole in our economy and most other economies

    It is undeniable that the only route out of this is by opening the economy and of course there are risks but we simply cannot keep the economy closed

    The airlines are complaining they have had no help but the only feasable help for them is for travel to recommence no matter in a restricted way

    There are no good options in any of this
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    'Popular' policies are not necessarily the same as 'effective' ones. Filling up fast-food restaurants Mon-Wed in August might sound good, but AIUI, traditionally they are the quieter days, and, surely crucially, the days where eating out is more likely to affect one's working life.
    I assume, of course, that when we see the small print, if I lunch at the local wine bar, the £10 off will still apply is I have a couples of glasses of wine with that lunch.

    Not, of course, that I work these days. I was quite surprised that he didn't mention the triple lock. Or did he, and I missed it.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    See also his role, or otherwise, in SAGE.

    He's only the BAD GUY he's been made out to be because:

    *he tends to get his way in the long run
    *he doesn't tolerate fools

    I would say that says more about the chattering classes than it does about him.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    That said, the media narrative being clearly quite wrong should be our starting point with most topics.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:
    The second story could be a little harsh.

    If they are medically vulnerable and there was an outbreak in the other jail maybe they thought they couldn’t wait to transfer them?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    *he doesn't tolerate fools

    He doesn't tolerate people who challenge him

    He is quite happy with BoZo
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    See also his role, or otherwise, in SAGE.

    He's only the BAD GUY he's been made out to be because:

    *he tends to get his way in the long run
    *he doesn't tolerate fools

    I would say that says more about the chattering classes than it does about him.
    When Sunak became Chancellor Covid was a slighly possible black swan event, since then it became reality.

    And since it became reality it's been a question of how to keep things going rather than listening to Cummings - who is probably too busy dealing with other stuff anyway..
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002
    eek said:

    Cummings - who is probably too busy dealing with other stuff anyway..

    Sacking people who don't agree with him, mainly...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    I thought the issue wasn’t generalised interference but the fact Cummings wouldn’t let Javid choose his own SPADs? I think Rishi went along with that (but presumably is careful about what info he shares)
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Scott_xP said:

    *he doesn't tolerate fools

    He doesn't tolerate people who challenge him

    He is quite happy with BoZo
    on the topic of fools, hi SCOTT
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    retweet something sexy for me

    you don't need to read it first.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    Personally I think the hospitality VAT cut and Eat-In scheme are imaginative and clever. It's inexpensive and time limited but gives a huge kick to an overly fearful population to re-engage with the outside world and the services economy. It doesn't pick winners but lets the market decide which survive and which don't. And it's optimistic, which feeds into wider economic confidence.

    Mike seems wary because he's unconvinced about opening up the economy due to ongoing concerns about the virus. But the catch is, there's unlikely to be a properly effective vaccine for years. Do we close the global economy and society until then? Or do we all slightly recalibrate our risk tolerance and behaviours to infectious disease? I would counter that keeping the economy on deep freeze would look pretty dumb with hindsight too.

    As for giving everyone a cheque for £2k. This is not the worst idea but before glibly dismissing everything apart from this policy, how about looking at the evidence of what it's meant where it's been tried in the US. The vast majority of people have used Trump's cheque to increase savings, pay down household debt or buy shares.

    Now these are noble goals themselves. Personally I'd print £100-200bn to put in Junior SIPPs for every under-18 year old in the country, with the goal of achieving a private retirement pot in real terms of £250k. It would only increase gilt holdings by the BOE by a quarter and wouldn't do too much to GBP given where we are (a weaker GBP would be a nice side effect in my view).

    But this is not the same goal as the VAT cut and voucher scheme. Which is to save jobs and otherwise viable businesses and to kickstart consumer spending again.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    Scott_xP said:

    *he doesn't tolerate fools

    He doesn't tolerate people who challenge him

    He is quite happy with BoZo
    on the topic of fools, hi SCOTT
    That's not really in the spirit of PB!
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    Sunak may be the poster boy for the post Covid Conservative Party and good luck to him.

    Some of the populist tabloid headline grabbing measures like the discount vouchers would seem to have the stamp of Cummings all over them. Maybe they are a great idea, but I have my doubts. The VAT and stamp duty measures seem to be more in tune with how I read Sunak
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,751
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,464
    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    What's the reason for his popularity?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    It generated positive tabloid headlines, which probably means mission accomplished.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:
    The second story could be a little harsh.

    If they are medically vulnerable and there was an outbreak in the other jail maybe they thought they couldn’t wait to transfer them?
    So why weren’t they tested ?

    And what about the numerous medically vulnerable in the prison to which they were transferred ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    What is needed is to get money circulating again. That is why I have been calling for a VAT cut here for months. And I've been laughed at here saying we need tax cuts with replies like "yeah and I'd like a supermodel".

    Cutting VAT and similar issues on the struggling hospitality sectors will allow money to circulate more in those sectors - and allow businesses to cope with thicker margins on smaller volumes - thus saving the sector from a catastrophe and in the long-term the government will make more tax revenue despite temporarily lower taxes.

    Essentially adjusting for the time value of money the peak of the Laffer Curve has temporarily moved far to the left of the graph and the government needs to respond accordingly.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited July 2020
    Well done Australia. So far, we’ll done on BNO passport holders - but Canada has already warned its nationals about travel to Hong Kong:

    https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/1281077649151049729?s=21
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,528

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    'Popular' policies are not necessarily the same as 'effective' ones. Filling up fast-food restaurants Mon-Wed in August might sound good, but AIUI, traditionally they are the quieter days, and, surely crucially, the days where eating out is more likely to affect one's working life.
    I assume, of course, that when we see the small print, if I lunch at the local wine bar, the £10 off will still apply is I have a couples of glasses of wine with that lunch.

    Not, of course, that I work these days. I was quite surprised that he didn't mention the triple lock. Or did he, and I missed it.
    The test of the triple lock will come when the scale of this year's drop in earnings and next year's recovery (hopefully) in earnings are calculated.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    Also, what would Cummings object to in Sunak's programme?

    Public investment on a vast scale was in the 2019 Conservative manifesto even before the pandemic. As suggested here at the time, there would need to be a great deal of reverse ferreting from both Labour and Tory supporters once they read it. PB Tories busily condemning Labour's broadband plans might have been surprised to learn their party even proposed free, state-supplied broadband infrastructure!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    Personally I've not been going out for a meal and had no intentions to do so for a while to come but if I can have a half-priced, socially distanced, early week Nando's next month then I will do. I miss Nando's and so does my wife, we'd normally go once a month and haven't been since February.

    Given social distancing requirements its not about shifting people from Thu-Sun to Mon-Wed instead, its about getting people who wouldn't have eaten out due to the crisis to start going out when its quiet.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    Also, what would Cummings object to in Sunak's programme?

    Public investment on a vast scale was in the 2019 Conservative manifesto even before the pandemic. As suggested here at the time, there would need to be a great deal of reverse ferreting from both Labour and Tory supporters once they read it. PB Tories busily condemning Labour's broadband plans might have been surprised to learn their party even proposed free, state-supplied broadband infrastructure!
    Did they propose free broadband, or infrastructure? There's a difference.

    If you think about it, the state built and maintains the M6 but if I want to drive on it I still need my own vehicle, the state doesn't supply that.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    What is needed is to get money circulating again. That is why I have been calling for a VAT cut here for months. And I've been laughed at here saying we need tax cuts with replies like "yeah and I'd like a supermodel".

    Cutting VAT and similar issues on the struggling hospitality sectors will allow money to circulate more in those sectors - and allow businesses to cope with thicker margins on smaller volumes - thus saving the sector from a catastrophe and in the long-term the government will make more tax revenue despite temporarily lower taxes.

    Essentially adjusting for the time value of money the peak of the Laffer Curve has temporarily moved far to the left of the graph and the government needs to respond accordingly.

    Wasn't there an old song about the circulation of money? The lines "see the money flow, round the Barley Mow" float into my head but Google finds nothing.

    On its importance, see this Labour Party video. Boris is a fan!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJFb-r48Ys
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
    Ceteris paribus the country is facing massive deflation.

    A boost in inflation right now is a good thing, not a bad thing.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Texas hospitalisations for Covid - June 15 was 2326 - now 9610
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    Personally I've not been going out for a meal and had no intentions to do so for a while to come but if I can have a half-priced, socially distanced, early week Nando's next month then I will do. I miss Nando's and so does my wife, we'd normally go once a month and haven't been since February.

    Given social distancing requirements its not about shifting people from Thu-Sun to Mon-Wed instead, its about getting people who wouldn't have eaten out due to the crisis to start going out when its quiet.
    There is always Deliveroo: I had a meal from Nando’s yesterday via that route.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    Struggling individuals and businesses will spend what they get given because they're struggling. They're not going to cling onto cash, they have bills coming in and no space to save.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    What is needed is to get money circulating again. That is why I have been calling for a VAT cut here for months. And I've been laughed at here saying we need tax cuts with replies like "yeah and I'd like a supermodel".

    Cutting VAT and similar issues on the struggling hospitality sectors will allow money to circulate more in those sectors - and allow businesses to cope with thicker margins on smaller volumes - thus saving the sector from a catastrophe and in the long-term the government will make more tax revenue despite temporarily lower taxes.

    Essentially adjusting for the time value of money the peak of the Laffer Curve has temporarily moved far to the left of the graph and the government needs to respond accordingly.

    Wasn't there an old song about the circulation of money? The lines "see the money flow, round the Barley Mow" float into my head but Google finds nothing.

    On its importance, see this Labour Party video. Boris is a fan!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJFb-r48Ys
    Except that austerity did work. The UK grew faster than Europe for the decade the Tories were in Downing Street and it is thanks to austerity that the roof was fixed while the sun was shining before this crisis. It is thanks to austerity we went into this crisis with debt falling (not rising) and it is thanks to austerity we went into this crisis with the deficit under control. It is thanks to austerity we can now afford to spend money countercyclically.

    Labour used to believe in Keynesian economics. What changed?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    edited July 2020
    It's usually best to wait for a few days before deciding whether a budget has been successful in political terms.

    However, reality appears to be dawning more quickly than usual this morning. This time you don't need to pour in detail over the appendices to the Red Book to find that all is not as it seems. We already have a chorus of businesses in different sectors who have woken up to the fact that they've missed out from any meaningful further help and are shouting loudly about it. Labour needs to do no more than echo those complaints and wait for reality to bite in the form of sectoral unemployment leading to a more general loss of demand. The charge of insufficient targeting will be the Achilles heel of these measures.

    Any Chancellor can spend £30bn. The question is whether they can do so effectively.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    edited July 2020
    Sunak good on R4 this morning
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Sunak needs to work on his radio technique. His ‘not answering the question’ skill is a bit rough around the edges.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    Personally I've not been going out for a meal and had no intentions to do so for a while to come but if I can have a half-priced, socially distanced, early week Nando's next month then I will do. I miss Nando's and so does my wife, we'd normally go once a month and haven't been since February.

    Given social distancing requirements its not about shifting people from Thu-Sun to Mon-Wed instead, its about getting people who wouldn't have eaten out due to the crisis to start going out when its quiet.
    There is always Deliveroo: I had a meal from Nando’s yesterday via that route.
    We're out of the delivery area for our Nando's. We've discovered a local independent during this crisis that is on Just-Eat that does something very similar but its not the same thing. Good enough for a treat definitely but it'd be nice to sit in the restaurant again and have the meal there.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
    Ceteris paribus the country is facing massive deflation.

    A boost in inflation right now is a good thing, not a bad thing.
    Not if you are mortgaged up to the hilt and interest rates rise to 15%. During the Major Government my mortgage IIRC was for a while at around 18%.

    Add general inflation to that and we have a heady cocktail of serious debt to deal with.

    Part of me thinks Johnson is a lucky politician and the normal economic rules don't apply to him and we can all carry on as normal without consequence. Is that wishful thinking?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    Personally I've not been going out for a meal and had no intentions to do so for a while to come but if I can have a half-priced, socially distanced, early week Nando's next month then I will do. I miss Nando's and so does my wife, we'd normally go once a month and haven't been since February.

    Given social distancing requirements its not about shifting people from Thu-Sun to Mon-Wed instead, its about getting people who wouldn't have eaten out due to the crisis to start going out when its quiet.
    There is always Deliveroo: I had a meal from Nando’s yesterday via that route.
    We've bought takeaways throughout - important to keep the good ones going. There's been some real creativity as well, with the smaller local taxi firms doing deliveries! The best of the "good idea" stories was a Boro couple now marooned down near Exeter ordering a Parmo. From Boro. The restaurant part prepped the food, froze it and shipped it with instructions how to finish it off - and called the press to say "we're still open"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
    Ceteris paribus the country is facing massive deflation.

    A boost in inflation right now is a good thing, not a bad thing.
    Not if you are mortgaged up to the hilt and interest rates rise to 15%. During the Major Government my mortgage IIRC was for a while at around 18%.

    Add general inflation to that and we have a heady cocktail of serious debt to deal with.

    Part of me thinks Johnson is a lucky politician and the normal economic rules don't apply to him and we can all carry on as normal without consequence. Is that wishful thinking?
    We aren't facing 15% interest or 4% inflation rates. We are facing 0.25% interest rates and deflation.

    We need to get inflation away from deflation and back up to betweeen 2-3%.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,555

    "But what happens if this acts as the catalyst for more people to be affected by the virus? One thing is for sure Covid19 has not gone away and incentivising people to get into situations where they could be affected might not with hindsight prove to be smart."

    Absolutely spot on.

    If we take a global rather than myopic view of this, which a responsible Government is required to do, it is evident that serious spikes are occurring where people drop their guard. Look at Melbourne today which has just gone back into a 6-week total lockdown.

    Coronavirus surges in the UK are a question of when not if.

    The Government probably do know this and have decided to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Beer, chips and ice-creams on the beach are more beneficial to the economy and so what if several thousands more people die?

    Imagine a hundred Zeebrugge disasters and that's what this Government are dishing you up.

    As a genuine question just what would you do and just how would you propose funding the enormous economic black hole in our economy and most other economies

    It is undeniable that the only route out of this is by opening the economy and of course there are risks but we simply cannot keep the economy closed

    The airlines are complaining they have had no help but the only feasable help for them is for travel to recommence no matter in a restricted way

    There are no good options in any of this
    Agree. Criticism is easy in situations where there are no good options and every policy will be judgesd by uncontrollable events that have not yet happened. Labour have little to say except a routine trope about 'should have done more'.
    There are no policies which can be guaranteed not to lead to disaster, both health and economicswise. And both together.

    BTW from appearances Rishi would see to be more relaxed about this than his shadow opponent, who so far does not quite look the part.

    Rishi is now where a chap called Portillo once was. I imagine his resident joker will occasionally whisper in his ear that he is mortal, and that 'Who Dares Wins' is not a great speech ending.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    rkrkrk said:

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    Struggling individuals and businesses will spend what they get given because they're struggling. They're not going to cling onto cash, they have bills coming in and no space to save.

    What percentage of individuals are actually struggling? Even in a recession most people are no worse off than normal, the problem is a significant but small minority are really struggling.

    Id think the majority have received their normal income for 4 months, but spent a lot less. They will be more reluctant than usual to spend those savings/reduced credit for fear of the future, not because they are already struggling.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    (j/k I didn't watch it and OKC isn't that partisan)
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837

    It's usually best to wait for a few days before deciding whether a budget has been successful in political terms.

    However, reality appears to be dawning more quickly than usual this morning. This time you don't need to pour in detail over the appendices to the Red Book to find that all is not as it seems. We already have a chorus of businesses in different sectors who have woken up to the fact that they've missed out from any meaningful further help and are shouting loudly about it. Labour needs to do no more than echo those complaints and wait for reality to bite in the form of sectoral unemployment leading to a more general loss of demand. The charge of insufficient targeting will be the Achilles heel of these measures.

    Any Chancellor can spend £30bn. The question is whether they can do so effectively.

    A skilful Chancellor might spend £10bn-£15bn but convince even his opponents to call it £30bn!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    What is needed is to get money circulating again. That is why I have been calling for a VAT cut here for months. And I've been laughed at here saying we need tax cuts with replies like "yeah and I'd like a supermodel".

    Cutting VAT and similar issues on the struggling hospitality sectors will allow money to circulate more in those sectors - and allow businesses to cope with thicker margins on smaller volumes - thus saving the sector from a catastrophe and in the long-term the government will make more tax revenue despite temporarily lower taxes.

    Essentially adjusting for the time value of money the peak of the Laffer Curve has temporarily moved far to the left of the graph and the government needs to respond accordingly.

    Wasn't there an old song about the circulation of money? The lines "see the money flow, round the Barley Mow" float into my head but Google finds nothing.

    On its importance, see this Labour Party video. Boris is a fan!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJFb-r48Ys
    Except that austerity did work. The UK grew faster than Europe for the decade the Tories were in Downing Street and it is thanks to austerity that the roof was fixed while the sun was shining before this crisis. It is thanks to austerity we went into this crisis with debt falling (not rising) and it is thanks to austerity we went into this crisis with the deficit under control. It is thanks to austerity we can now afford to spend money countercyclically.

    Labour used to believe in Keynesian economics. What changed?
    Europe also suffered from German-imposed austerity. Compare our growth with the United States to see how much we lost! Ironically, if European economies had been expanding then Osborne's austerity might have worked because there'd have been increased demand for our exports, but they weren't so it didn't.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2020
    @Pulpstar do you have a link to the "Death ratesfor hospitalised patients has gone from 6% to 1.5%" article again I can't find it?

    Looking at the TMC data ( https://www.tmc.edu/coronavirus-updates/current-covid-19-related-patients-through-tmc-system/ ) their overall death rate for hospitalisations in Houston is sitting at 6.5%

    I would have expected it to be lower by now.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
    Ceteris paribus the country is facing massive deflation.

    A boost in inflation right now is a good thing, not a bad thing.
    Not if you are mortgaged up to the hilt and interest rates rise to 15%. During the Major Government my mortgage IIRC was for a while at around 18%.

    Add general inflation to that and we have a heady cocktail of serious debt to deal with.

    Part of me thinks Johnson is a lucky politician and the normal economic rules don't apply to him and we can all carry on as normal without consequence. Is that wishful thinking?
    We aren't facing 15% interest or 4% inflation rates. We are facing 0.25% interest rates and deflation.

    We need to get inflation away from deflation and back up to betweeen 2-3%.
    You don't know that. The more money is pumped into the economy the higher the inflation. There are already some supply issues from imported and domestically produced material.

    You might be right, but a consumer debt lead recovery can be problematic.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,608
    Floater said:

    Texas hospitalisations for Covid - June 15 was 2326 - now 9610

    Maybe we should trade ventilators for remdesivir with the US.....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    Jonathan said:

    Sunak needs to work on his radio technique. His ‘not answering the question’ skill is a bit rough around the edges.

    He's still a rookie, by the time he ousts Boris in a bloodless coup in the Autumn, he will be as evasive as the rest of them.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,837
    Last senior politician I can remember willingly talking like that was Ken Clarke. I wonder if a similar career might lie ahead for Sunak.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    On identifying potential sources of infection, once more we let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Remote screening of body temperature is not intrusive but we can't have it because the medics are bothered about false negatives. Many PBers will have seen the Amazon adverts showing they use it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020
    An interesting paper, which suggests that the distinction the WHO draws between respiratory droplets which potentially carry virus, but are too large to remain airborne for long, and aerosol particles, which stay airborne but aren't of sufficient size to carry viable infectious virus, is quite possibly an artificial one.

    This is of some importance, as it underlies their resistance to recommending universal mask use.

    Modeling* the role of respiratory droplets in Covid-19 type pandemics
    https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0015984

    ...The small droplets ( < 2 µm–3 µm) have a very short evaporation timescale. This implies that these droplets evaporate quickly ( < 1 s) after being ejected. However, the same conclusion does not hold for slightly larger droplets ejected in the form of cloud (>5 µm). These droplets exhibit longer evaporation time, leading to increased chances of transmission of the droplet laden viruses. In particular, when inhaled, these droplets enable quick and effective transport of the virus directly to the lungs airways causing a higher probability of infection. In general, the smaller droplets ( < 30 µm) have low Stokes number, thereby allowing them to float in ambient air without the propensity to settle down. For larger droplets (>100 µm), the settling timescale is very small (∼0.5 s). In effect, based on the diameter of the exhaled droplets, there are three distinct possibilities:

    Small droplets ( < 5 µm) evaporate within a fraction of second.

    Large droplets ( > 100 µm) settle within a small time frame ( < 0.5 s), limiting the radius of infection.

    Intermediate droplets (∼30 µm) show the highest probability of infection due to a slightly longer evaporation lifetime and low Stokes number....


    * If you read the full paper, the model is experimentally tested.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    That's unfortunately probably not true if you make a habit of it. The last estimate I saw is that 1 in 1000 people are currently infectious, and the level is not declining rapidly. If you go to a pub and mingle with a few people you'll probably be fine. If you do it twice a week for a couple of months, and a few other things like shopping and the odd restaurant meal, you'll probably catch it sooner or later.

    This isn't dependent on the 1/1000 rate being quite accurate. If it's actually 1/500 or 1/3000 the argument is the same.

    I have a mildly increased risk (>70) but had a haircut and went into two shops yesterday. I feel the risk has declined to the point that an exceptional outing is a reasonable roll of the dice. But I don't plan to do it again for a month or so.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405



    Not if you are mortgaged up to the hilt and interest rates rise to 15%. During the Major Government my mortgage IIRC was for a while at around 18%.

    Add general inflation to that and we have a heady cocktail of serious debt to deal with.

    Part of me thinks Johnson is a lucky politician and the normal economic rules don't apply to him and we can all carry on as normal without consequence. Is that wishful thinking?

    One off spending isn't a real problem, the real issue would be if the spending became permanent because, say, people became unemployed.

    Hence doing everything they can to make this a blip rather than an long term issue.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    Foxy said:

    moonshine said:

    On topic, an intriguing facet of all this. Since becoming Chancellor, Sunak has quickly established himself as one of the most popular politicians in the country.

    But Javid told us he resigned as Chancellor because "no self-respecting minister would accept" the interference from No 10's aides. Chiefly Dominic Cummings.

    Something somewhere is clearly quite wrong with the media narrative on Cummings.

    Either Cummings is not in fact an unelected dictator running every element of government business, because Sunak has taken a firm grip of the Treasury and is running it brilliantly (or at least in a very popular way), despite the "unacceptable" interference from Cummings.

    Or... Cummings is in fact in complete control and Sunak is a puppet. But that's ok because Cummings himself is coming up with very popular policies and is not the inept monster made out by the chattering classes but someone the public should cherish.

    Javid resigned over his SPADS having to answer to Cummings. To lose a second CofE would look very bad, so Sunaks SPADS may get nominal control by Cummings, but in practice very little.

    The other thing is that Cummings agenda is unusual for a UK right winger. It is Cultural and organisational, not economic. He hates the Civil Service in all its forms, and wants to smash what he sees as the Blob. Brexit too is driven by culture war, not economics. Cummings is not bothered by economics, or whether the countries debts are sustainable.

    Both Cummings and Sunak have one thing in common. Both were wealthy from the start, but then married into very wealthy families. Neither has ever had to go short personally and never will, as such culturally they are very happy spending money, as there has always been an inexhaustible supply. We will see if that is true of the Treasury...

    I think that the real finance implications take a year to hit. The July 31 tax payments have been deferred, and the income tax due on Jan 31 is 11 months of normal income. Corporation tax is also paid 9 months after fin year finishes. Tax reciepts will appear to be OK for some time yet, but will fall off a cliff in 2021, while spending remains very high. We are at the running in the air stage of a Wile E Coyote cartoon.

    I guess the question is, does it matter? Everyone everywhere is running huge deficits now. Everyone who can is debasing their fiat currency through money printing to monetise these deficits. And gilt prices evyerwhere are still sky high. At some point orthodoxy says this all feeds through to high inflation. But of what, goods or assets? If I were writing the full budget, I'd equalise capital gains tax with income tax ahead of asset price inflation, just in case gilt yields start spiking beyond the control of our highly interventionist central bank.

    The factor largely overlooked through this crisis has been the extent of balance sheet restructuring. From large caps, to SMEs to households. Massive amounts of corporate debt have been refinanced at negative real interest rates and with longer durations. Bye bye debt cliff edge. SMEs have been given a lifeline with often unsuitable very high interest short term debt, refinanced with longer term state guaranteed facilities. As for households, they've been given mortgage holidays and low rates to refinance at, a furlough scheme an order of magnitude more generous than redundancy and in many cases, no reduction in disposable income (or even an increase given commuting costs) but highly reduced avenues to blow that disposable income.

    Glass half full says there's no meaningful second wave and we're at the start of a roaring decade. Albeit with as many losers as winners (poor old Pret).
    But doesn't a rise in M3, which as you say tends to be inflationary also tend to lead to a hike in interest rates. As we are financing the pandemic by personal borrowing be that from HMRC deferments, which we might have to refinance by a bank loan in January, or from an extension to the mortgage, isn't that sub-optimal?
    Ceteris paribus the country is facing massive deflation.

    A boost in inflation right now is a good thing, not a bad thing.
    Not if you are mortgaged up to the hilt and interest rates rise to 15%. During the Major Government my mortgage IIRC was for a while at around 18%.

    Add general inflation to that and we have a heady cocktail of serious debt to deal with.

    Part of me thinks Johnson is a lucky politician and the normal economic rules don't apply to him and we can all carry on as normal without consequence. Is that wishful thinking?
    We aren't facing 15% interest or 4% inflation rates. We are facing 0.25% interest rates and deflation.

    We need to get inflation away from deflation and back up to betweeen 2-3%.
    You don't know that. The more money is pumped into the economy the higher the inflation. There are already some supply issues from imported and domestically produced material.

    You might be right, but a consumer debt lead recovery can be problematic.
    We do know that. What we are facing is deflation not high inflation, we know that from history and we know that from the evidence we have before us.

    Yes the actions being taken now lead to "higher" inflation but "higher" than what?

    When your inflation rate is 5% then higher inflation is bad.
    When your inflation rate is 10% then higher inflation is terrible.
    When your inflation is close to 0% and heading down then higher inflation is a good thing.

    What is the inflation rate today?

    What we are going through is a catastrophe not seen since the Spanish Flu. What was the inflation rate in the early 1920s in the UK after the Spanish Flu?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    eek said:

    blairf said:

    the rishi package shows government at it's worst. if they wanted to pump (our) cash back into the economy just give everyone a couple of grand. trying to target it with what are essentially retail promotions (free house move! buy one burger get one free! 20% off hot food! employ-a-kid-get-one-free!) smacks of playing shop. the vastness of the fiscal hole scares me, and retail promotions don't work. they shift money around in time and category that is all.

    They shift money around in time and that's it.

    Given that no one has to commute at the moment how many people are going to shift their entertainment budget to Monday - wednesday in August rather than Thursday to Sunday.

    I can see the reason for the plan, but it instantly fell apart.
    Personally I've not been going out for a meal and had no intentions to do so for a while to come but if I can have a half-priced, socially distanced, early week Nando's next month then I will do. I miss Nando's and so does my wife, we'd normally go once a month and haven't been since February.

    Given social distancing requirements its not about shifting people from Thu-Sun to Mon-Wed instead, its about getting people who wouldn't have eaten out due to the crisis to start going out when its quiet.
    There is always Deliveroo: I had a meal from Nando’s yesterday via that route.
    We've bought takeaways throughout - important to keep the good ones going. There's been some real creativity as well, with the smaller local taxi firms doing deliveries! The best of the "good idea" stories was a Boro couple now marooned down near Exeter ordering a Parmo. From Boro. The restaurant part prepped the food, froze it and shipped it with instructions how to finish it off - and called the press to say "we're still open"
    Never had a Nando whatever that may be, fortunately apart from Burger King and McDonalds the scourge of chain fast food has not reached this part of the southern Costa Blanca. Long may it remain that way and we retain the wide variations of restaurants and menu del Dias that dominate.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
    It was a joke. Hence the wink and the "j/k" (literally stands for "just kidding") that you editted out of my post.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    edited July 2020
    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people *. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    A crowded pub would provide exactly the right conditions for spread. And many crowded pubs would ensure that someone infectious would be in one of them.

    It's absolutely true that the risk is, in any individual case, very low.
    To prevent a resurgence of the virus, it needs to be kept that way.

    * You very probably can, even if, as acknowledged, the individual risk is very low.
    It is the overall risk that counts, though, when it comes to the population.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,428
    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    The key problem with Covid is that half of those infected (and infectious) are asymptomatic, and even the half who do develop symptoms are infectious for a couple of days before those symptoms develop.

    So, at any time, you could be the infectious person who does not have symptoms.

    What is the responsible way to behave?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    That's unfortunately probably not true if you make a habit of it. The last estimate I saw is that 1 in 1000 people are currently infectious, and the level is not declining rapidly. If you go to a pub and mingle with a few people you'll probably be fine. If you do it twice a week for a couple of months, and a few other things like shopping and the odd restaurant meal, you'll probably catch it sooner or later.

    This isn't dependent on the 1/1000 rate being quite accurate. If it's actually 1/500 or 1/3000 the argument is the same.

    I have a mildly increased risk (>70) but had a haircut and went into two shops yesterday. I feel the risk has declined to the point that an exceptional outing is a reasonable roll of the dice. But I don't plan to do it again for a month or so.
    Very sensible of you too. Just because lockdown has effectively finished, it is no reason not to be very cautious. Exceptions for me are dentist and hairdresser. I must get my hair cut, its been nearly 5 months since I had it cut by a hairdresser.
    You only need to see the scenes at pubs to know that they are a no go area for now., if you are of a certain age.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Jonathan said:

    Sunak needs to work on his radio technique. His ‘not answering the question’ skill is a bit rough around the edges.

    He's still a rookie, by the time he ousts Boris in a bloodless coup in the Autumn, he will be as evasive as the rest of them.
    I'm always amazed how so many journalists let politicians get away with answering quite different questions from those asked.

    Obviously most of them don't care about the question they asked 99% of the time.

    The contrast when a member of the public asks a question they want an answer to is striking. Which is why all politicians dodge them as much as possible, of course.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    alex_ said:

    Whilst not wanting to underplay the risk, it seems to me that a lot of people seem to be operating under the belief that you can catch COVID simply by being in the same room and/or in close proximity to other people. As opposed to other infected people. In some parts of the country right now the actual odds of finding yourself within “dangerous” proximity of an infected person, let alone catching COVID off them, let alone developing symptoms are pretty small. Let alone if you operate sensible personal precautions.

    It’s not like going into a pub is comparable with spending all night mingling on a crowded nightclub dance floor.

    That's unfortunately probably not true if you make a habit of it. The last estimate I saw is that 1 in 1000 people are currently infectious, and the level is not declining rapidly. If you go to a pub and mingle with a few people you'll probably be fine. If you do it twice a week for a couple of months, and a few other things like shopping and the odd restaurant meal, you'll probably catch it sooner or later.

    This isn't dependent on the 1/1000 rate being quite accurate. If it's actually 1/500 or 1/3000 the argument is the same.

    I have a mildly increased risk (>70) but had a haircut and went into two shops yesterday. I feel the risk has declined to the point that an exceptional outing is a reasonable roll of the dice. But I don't plan to do it again for a month or so.
    At age 70 it is impressive if you need a haircut as often as that.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,428
    I think the deadweight cost is much less of a problem than normal, because there's a case for randomly bunging money to all and sundry anyway. So if you do that a bit as "deadweight" of another scheme - so what?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222

    Last senior politician I can remember willingly talking like that was Ken Clarke. I wonder if a similar career might lie ahead for Sunak.
    I heard that part of his interview, and was impressed.

    He is absolutely correct that any response to emergencies has above all else to be rapid, and that any rapid unplanned response will include mistakes and missteps.
    That he's prepared to acknowledge the downsides of his actions, and that he will make mistakes, differentiates him from anyone else currently in the cabinet.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,595
    OT

    "On Tuesday morning, Harper's Magazine published a joint letter from 153 prominent writers, academics, and entertainers, ranging from Noam Chomsky to David Brooks, J.K. Rowling to Wynton Marsalis, Salman Rushdie to Gloria Steinem, expressing concern that "the free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted."

    The 532-word document is a direct response to the remarkable past six weeks or so at American media and cultural institutions, which have experienced a wave of firings, resignations, and castigations over purportedly harmful words, deeds, and sometimes costumes."

    https://reason.com/2020/07/08/lefties-hate-on-liberal-open-letter-on-free-speech/?fbclid=IwAR0OT1BZFV-q2jf4Id3q97C8yMsCEYM7bte_dNr1xp1BFTXG5jhNw34kJ9c
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    Jonathan said:

    Sunak needs to work on his radio technique. His ‘not answering the question’ skill is a bit rough around the edges.

    Very important skill, many are surprisingly bad at it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
    The mere mention of the "Sainted Nicola" has you frothing at the mouth, whether it be adulatory or critical ;)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Yes, Dodds is more interesting than Morgan
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
    Partial quotes are more than a bit naughty.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
    It was a joke. Hence the wink and the "j/k" (literally stands for "just kidding") that you editted out of my post.
    Hey, mine was also a joke about PB Tories (Mark 1920) constantly portraying themselves as a traduced, silenced, persecuted minority. It's so obviously hilarious that I don't even need an emoji!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    The thing that some people clearly understand about economics and others clearly don't is that it is circulation that matters.

    Giving money to struggling businesses/individuals does absolutely nothing for the macro economy whatsoever as they cling on to that cash (and then continue to struggle if they're not getting anything circulated back to them).

    What is needed is to get money circulating again. That is why I have been calling for a VAT cut here for months. And I've been laughed at here saying we need tax cuts with replies like "yeah and I'd like a supermodel".

    A VAT cut is not the right way to go, however crowd-pleasing it might be in the short term.

    First, there is a huge deadweight effect. Most of the purchases would have been made anyway, so all you're doing is cutting prices to individuals. They will save the difference.

    Second, depending on the sector, people will often just bring forward future spending, leading to reduced economic growth when you take it away.

    Third, there are often surprisingly large administrative costs involved in cutting VAT then raising it again, which is why, when they did it during the financial crisis, a lot of businesses did not even bother cutting their prices.

    Fourth, sector-specific cuts lead to reclassifications and other inefficiencies.

    Cutting less sexy business taxes, like payroll levies, or increasing capital allowances, gets you much more bang for your buck.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,132
    Nigelb said:

    Last senior politician I can remember willingly talking like that was Ken Clarke. I wonder if a similar career might lie ahead for Sunak.
    I heard that part of his interview, and was impressed.

    He is absolutely correct that any response to emergencies has above all else to be rapid, and that any rapid unplanned response will include mistakes and missteps.
    That he's prepared to acknowledge the downsides of his actions, and that he will make mistakes, differentiates him from anyone else currently in the cabinet.
    I'd like to think such an approach would be rewarded by the public but I do not think it will. People admitting they have or are in the process of making mistakes, even for good reason as they had to act fast, is something we might praise in the moment or in theory, but down the line it just becomes, well, a mistake to be criticised. Whether it was reasonable to have made it at the time, or was a trade off that needed to be made, wont get a look in.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:
    The second story could be a little harsh.

    If they are medically vulnerable and there was an outbreak in the other jail maybe they thought they couldn’t wait to transfer them?
    So why weren’t they tested ?

    And what about the numerous medically vulnerable in the prison to which they were transferred ?
    1) someone forgot
    2) someone decided not to

    If 2) then

    a) they are a heartless monster who wanted everyone to die
    b) they didn’t have budget
    c) they thought that they didn’t have time to wait for the results before transferring
    d) all the prisoners were put into quarantine for 14 days in arrive at San Quentin and they believed this was sufficient

    My guess is 2(d). It’s also not clear from the article that the infection came with those prisoners. post hoc proctor hoc
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited July 2020

    isam said:

    Ranvir Singh and Ben Shepherd just interviewed the Shadow Chancellor on GMB. So much better than the pompous, gotcha seeking technique of Piers Morgan

    Chancellor had something of a car crash on his BBC interview this morning.
    Did OK on R4 - what tripped him up on the TV?
    He was a Tory.

    That'd be enough for some people. ;)

    I didn't watch it
    Never let it be said that PB Tories are overly dependent on evidence for their persecution complexes.
    The mere mention of the "Sainted Nicola" has you frothing at the mouth, whether it be adulatory or critical ;)
    You've managed a more or less grammatically coherent sentence for once, another year or two and you might manage one that actually contains a point.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,428
    edited July 2020
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