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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    Why the F did the cops and the politicians not enforce the lockdown rules from the start, and make all demos illegal in practise, as they are in law?

    Then we would have had no tit-for-tat statue topplings, no far right reaction to antifa thuggery, and we would not be in in this awful, downwards spiral

    As a cynic, need you ask?
    Yes, I need to. I don't understand why the govt didn't come down hard on the first demos, and then the counter demos. Then we'd have none of this trouble, from any side
    Trouble. Cultural war stuff. All great for diverting attention from the clusterf*ck that is the Government's virus response: care homes, apps, PPE etc etc.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    So Starmer has done it, back up to 40% and up to Corbyn's level at his peak.

    Polling parity gets ever closer

    Mission accomplished lads! :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    Who are LDM? They seem to be slipping who ever they are.
    Two party politics seems to be the norm these days
    Until Layla turns it round.

    'Go back to your constituencies and prepare for government' 😀
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Alistair said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    RobD said:

    The other relevant factor that I think helps to explain why Washington DC hasn't been considered worthy of having voting representation in Congress is that the majority of its population is Black. I believe that DC does have a member of Congress but they can't vote - when we lived there it was Eleanor Holmes Norton IIRC who was excellent. It's a fantastic city with some beautiful neighbourhoods. It's an absolute disgrace that its population is disenfranchised.

    Isn't it more to do with the fact it would add two Democratic senators to the senate rather than race?
    Unfortunately, with blacks overwhelmingly voting Democrat, you can't split the two.

    Virtually everything in America has a racial component, to an extent baffling to us, though we're starting to see glimpses of it here.
    Following the Civil War it was the Democrats who were the party of the South and strongly anti equality. The KKK was largely a Democrat organisation. At that time it was the Republicans who were the party of civil rights and equality as well as general liberalisation.

    It is an interesting question about when it all changed. Not one I know the answer to. Does anyone on here know when the transformation happened?
    The Civil Rights Act in the 1960.

    LBJ said he had cost the Democrats the South for a generation.

    A lot of hard right of the GOP are former Dems who switched sides around that time.
    Wow I hadn't realised it was that recent (relatively as I know I am showing my age here thinking the 60s is recent)
    It was actually a bit before the 1964 Civil Rights Act. They started shifting during the 1960 election. King was arrested in October. Nixon said nothing. He disapproved privately, but thought it was a state matter. Kennedy condemned it and his brother negotiated King's release.

    Ironically Kennedy did very little for them in office, unlike Eisenhower who had sent the troops in to enforce desegregation, or Johnson, who would pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
    That's not true, JFK tried to pass versions of the VRA but that was thwarted by Congress.
    I've listened to some of JFK's speeches on desegregation and his attempts at the VRA and boy was he fucking furious about the situation. Some seriously powerful stuff.

    LBJ was the conservative counterweight to Kennedy to 'balance' the ticket and it is to his eternal credit that he saw it as his moral duty to implement Kennedy's vision and due to circumstances he had the power to implement it better than Kennedy would have ever had the opportunity to do.
    Yep. LBJ was put on the ticket partly cos he was the Senate fixer.
    As President he knew all about how to get stuff done in Congress.
    If not in Vietnam.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/reading-stabbing-forbury-gardens-live-18459964

    Responding to concern from family and friends and to online speculation, Nieema Hassan, an organiser of the BLM demonstration, wrote on Facebook: "Everyone who attended today in support of BLM RDG are all of okay."

    Not sure how she could know that TBH
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    RobD said:

    The other relevant factor that I think helps to explain why Washington DC hasn't been considered worthy of having voting representation in Congress is that the majority of its population is Black. I believe that DC does have a member of Congress but they can't vote - when we lived there it was Eleanor Holmes Norton IIRC who was excellent. It's a fantastic city with some beautiful neighbourhoods. It's an absolute disgrace that its population is disenfranchised.

    Isn't it more to do with the fact it would add two Democratic senators to the senate rather than race?
    Unfortunately, with blacks overwhelmingly voting Democrat, you can't split the two.

    Virtually everything in America has a racial component, to an extent baffling to us, though we're starting to see glimpses of it here.
    Following the Civil War it was the Democrats who were the party of the South and strongly anti equality. The KKK was largely a Democrat organisation. At that time it was the Republicans who were the party of civil rights and equality as well as general liberalisation.

    It is an interesting question about when it all changed. Not one I know the answer to. Does anyone on here know when the transformation happened?
    The Civil Rights Act in the 1960.

    LBJ said he had cost the Democrats the South for a generation.

    A lot of hard right of the GOP are former Dems who switched sides around that time.
    Wow I hadn't realised it was that recent (relatively as I know I am showing my age here thinking the 60s is recent)
    It was actually a bit before the 1964 Civil Rights Act. They started shifting during the 1960 election. King was arrested in October. Nixon said nothing. He disapproved privately, but thought it was a state matter. Kennedy condemned it and his brother negotiated King's release.

    Ironically Kennedy did very little for them in office, unlike Eisenhower who had sent the troops in to enforce desegregation, or Johnson, who would pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
    That's not true, JFK tried to pass versions of the VRA but that was thwarted by Congress.
    I've listened to some of JFK's speeches on desegregation and his attempts at the VRA and boy was he fucking furious about the situation. Some seriously powerful stuff.

    LBJ was the conservative counterweight to Kennedy to 'balance' the ticket and it is to his eternal credit that he saw it as his moral duty to implement Kennedy's vision and due to circumstances he had the power to implement it better than Kennedy would have ever had the opportunity to do.
    Yep. LBJ was put on the ticket partly cos he was the Senate fixer.
    As President he knew all about how to get stuff done in Congress.
    If not in Vietnam.
    He was the most effective President ever at passing legislation if I remember from my American politics at university. 91% of legislation he proposed in his first year passed. The only other modern President that came close was Reagan with 81%.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411

    So Starmer has done it, back up to 40% and up to Corbyn's level at his peak.

    Polling parity gets ever closer

    LAB were ahead in the polls in 1986. Didn't turn out that well for them in 1987.

    And in 1990. Likewise in 1992.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Since when did the BBC adopt/import the word Ultras to describe football firms?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    I'm not sure they have a sense of humour.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Fishing said:

    RobD said:

    The other relevant factor that I think helps to explain why Washington DC hasn't been considered worthy of having voting representation in Congress is that the majority of its population is Black. I believe that DC does have a member of Congress but they can't vote - when we lived there it was Eleanor Holmes Norton IIRC who was excellent. It's a fantastic city with some beautiful neighbourhoods. It's an absolute disgrace that its population is disenfranchised.

    Isn't it more to do with the fact it would add two Democratic senators to the senate rather than race?
    Unfortunately, with blacks overwhelmingly voting Democrat, you can't split the two.

    Virtually everything in America has a racial component, to an extent baffling to us, though we're starting to see glimpses of it here.
    Following the Civil War it was the Democrats who were the party of the South and strongly anti equality. The KKK was largely a Democrat organisation. At that time it was the Republicans who were the party of civil rights and equality as well as general liberalisation.

    It is an interesting question about when it all changed. Not one I know the answer to. Does anyone on here know when the transformation happened?
    The Civil Rights Act in the 1960.

    LBJ said he had cost the Democrats the South for a generation.

    A lot of hard right of the GOP are former Dems who switched sides around that time.
    Wow I hadn't realised it was that recent (relatively as I know I am showing my age here thinking the 60s is recent)
    It was actually a bit before the 1964 Civil Rights Act. They started shifting during the 1960 election. King was arrested in October. Nixon said nothing. He disapproved privately, but thought it was a state matter. Kennedy condemned it and his brother negotiated King's release, while dog-whistling to southern whites that he wouldn't enforce desegregation.

    Ironically Kennedy did very little for black civil rights in office, unlike Eisenhower who had sent the troops in to enforce desegregation, or Johnson, who would pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
    Simply not true. Kennedy sent in the troops in 1963 to enforce desegregation at the University of Alabama.
    Yes, fair point, Johnson and Eisenhower did far, far more though.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    So Starmer has done it, back up to 40% and up to Corbyn's level at his peak.

    Polling parity gets ever closer

    [Narrator]

    By this time after the 2010 GE, Labour had crossed over to a lead in the rolling average of all opinion polls. They held that lead for over 4 years, and on several occasions during the 2010-2015 Parliament, Ed Miliband's Labour outpolled David Cameron's Tories by as much as 15%.

    Ed Miliband is now a professional reviewer of Labour post-defeat analyses.

    Sad :wink:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    I'm not sure if there are any limits.

    What if someone argues the secret ballot is an obstacle to anti-racism because it might allow some people to be secretly racist in private, and they should be held to account?

    It's not very far from the qualifications many people are making on free speech now and, hey presto, you've done away with free democracy.

    (please don't retweet that and get it started)
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    More or less back to 2017 with some churn on that result. Labour gaining LDs and probably a large chunk of 2019 Labour leave abstainers returning to Labour as well at least for the time being.

    Very solid Tory vote. I think 40% is a ceiling for Labour despite David Herdson's predictions of a Labour lead this year which might not materialise. It'll probably take a while for the Tories to haemorrhage votes to the LDs if it happens at all, possibly not until the county council elections next year.
  • brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    If we can get them to cancel all universities then perhaps there is a way out of this after all.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Trigger warning for the snowflakes on here.

    https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/1274402687438729217

    Some men will say any rubbish in order to get a f*ck.
    Show me a man who's a vegan,
    And I'll show you a man who's trying to shag a vegan.
    Umm...

    Didn't you say you have to eat a lot of tofu at home?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Andy_JS said:
    Bonkers.

    I wonder if Ben Kingsley will be commenting shortly?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Barr and Trump playing pass the parcel, both wanting Berman gone, but neither one wanting to be personally guilty of obstructing justice.
    An interesting wrinkle is the change in Berman’s intended replacement:
    https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1274425349116497920
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    Alistair said:

    Trump Personally Fires U.S. Attorney Who Investigated His Associates

    NYTimes

    Present but not involved.

    https://twitter.com/DavidLat/status/1274436054322462721
    Absolutely fucked this. Berman turns up for work on Monday.
    And testifies before the House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    It's also a very different Europe.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    In a few chapters time there is a shock twist. It's called the Social Chapter.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    On a GB basis Labour is up 7% with the Tories dropping 0.7% - a swing to Labour of just under 4% .On basis of UNS that implies a Tory majority of 6 - depending on the outcome of Tory v SNP contests in Scotland.
  • justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    On a GB basis Labour is up 7% with the Tories dropping 0.7% - a swing to Labour of just under 4% .On basis of UNS that implies a Tory majority of 6 - depending on the outcome of Tory v SNP contests in Scotland.
    A huge drop in a short period of time, Labour is on the way to that swing he needs to form a minority Government
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    Trump’s 3-Point Plan to Win in 2020
    He will attack the independence and integrity of the legal system, try to benefit from foreign help, and benefit from voting obstacles.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-3-point-plan-to-win-in-2020/613318/
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    Would be great if Ted Heath was still alive.

    The British politcal realignment on Europe reminds me of the American political realignment on civil rights, with the parties swapping places over the course of about five years.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    If the LDs don't pull their finger out soon they'll soon be behind both the Greens and the SNP. Being stuck in the middle of a leadership election doesn't help.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    More or less back to 2017 with some churn on that result. Labour gaining LDs and probably a large chunk of 2019 Labour leave abstainers returning to Labour as well at least for the time being.

    Very solid Tory vote. I think 40% is a ceiling for Labour despite David Herdson's predictions of a Labour lead this year which might not materialise. It'll probably take a while for the Tories to haemorrhage votes to the LDs if it happens at all, possibly not until the county council elections next year.
    The recession is likely to push the Tories below 40% - indeed maybe closer to 30%. I can see Labour at circa 45% next year - whrther it stays there is another matter.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,488
    Nigelb said:

    Trump’s 3-Point Plan to Win in 2020
    He will attack the independence and integrity of the legal system, try to benefit from foreign help, and benefit from voting obstacles.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-3-point-plan-to-win-in-2020/613318/

    Which is why he mustn't win.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    RobD said:
    Paid for, rather than borrowed, allegedly...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Nigelb said:

    Trump’s 3-Point Plan to Win in 2020
    He will attack the independence and integrity of the legal system, try to benefit from foreign help, and benefit from voting obstacles.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-3-point-plan-to-win-in-2020/613318/

    Which is why he mustn't win.
    The last one is the major problem.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    Back when it was still only a Common Market 67% of British voters voted to stay in in 1975
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224

    Nigelb said:

    Trump’s 3-Point Plan to Win in 2020
    He will attack the independence and integrity of the legal system, try to benefit from foreign help, and benefit from voting obstacles.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-3-point-plan-to-win-in-2020/613318/

    Which is why he mustn't win.
    If he does, we’ll find out just how much of a gangster he is. And by then it might well be too late to do anything about it.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    tlg86 said:

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    It's also a very different Europe.
    One that Rupert Murdoch no longer supports.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    On a GB basis Labour is up 7% with the Tories dropping 0.7% - a swing to Labour of just under 4% .On basis of UNS that implies a Tory majority of 6 - depending on the outcome of Tory v SNP contests in Scotland.
    A huge drop in a short period of time, Labour is on the way to that swing he needs to form a minority Government
    Just a gentle nudge but have you heard the expression 'a week is a long time in politics'

    4 years is an eternity and anything can happen, especially post covid and brexit

    As far as I am concerned I am very relaxed about this now Corbyn has gone, with the only caveat, Starmer has to rid his party of anti semitism plus to move towards the centre generally
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766

    Nigelb said:

    Trump’s 3-Point Plan to Win in 2020
    He will attack the independence and integrity of the legal system, try to benefit from foreign help, and benefit from voting obstacles.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-3-point-plan-to-win-in-2020/613318/

    Which is why he mustn't win.
    "If Trump loses the election in November, he faces terrible legal exposure and financial trouble. Trump must win to survive, and in the face of low approval and high unemployment, he is unlikely to win if the vote is fair.

    The impending chaos in Kentucky, following the chaos in Georgia earlier in June, shows the way to skew the vote. In Georgia, the lines were longest in heavily black areas near Atlanta. In an election suddenly dependent on mail-in voting, the once-obscure question of postage on absentee ballots suddenly matters a great deal."
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    edited June 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Quite incredible.

    BBC GE coverage now showing the Foreign Editor saying how delighted other European countries are now that a genuine pro-european leading a pro-europe party is now in No.10.

    For those not keeping up, that is the Tory party circa 1970.

    It's also a very different Europe.
    In what sense? Divided by the Iron Curtain?
  • justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    On a GB basis Labour is up 7% with the Tories dropping 0.7% - a swing to Labour of just under 4% .On basis of UNS that implies a Tory majority of 6 - depending on the outcome of Tory v SNP contests in Scotland.
    A huge drop in a short period of time, Labour is on the way to that swing he needs to form a minority Government
    Just a gentle nudge but have you heard the expression 'a week is a long time in politics'

    4 years is an eternity and anything can happen, especially post covid and brexit

    As far as I am concerned I am very relaxed about this now Corbyn has gone, with the only caveat, Starmer has to rid his party of anti semitism plus to move towards the centre generally
    I believe he will resolve anti-Semitism and gain a lot of voters as a result
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,604
    edited June 2020
    CatMan said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I've been offline today until now. Has anything interesting happened?

    You mean apart from the martian invasion?
    The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one
    Today I've been working out the probability of our apartment block being damaged by a terrorist bomb for insurance purposes. It came out at five million to one chance in any one year. I then worked out the probability of it being damaged by a nuclear bomb. That came out at a thousand to one in any one year which rather shook me.

    The reason is that although a nuclear bome on London is much less likely than a terrorist bomb (say 0.1% rather than 20% in any one year) it would damage a million homes rather than one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
    Yep.

    "The 4chan hoax succeeded all too well, and ceased being a hoax: Neo-Nazis, Ku Klux Klansmen and other white nationalists began using the gesture in public to signal their presence and to spot potential sympathizers and recruits. For them, the letters formed by the hand were not O and K, but W and P, for “white power.” "

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/us/ok-sign-white-power.html
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    More or less back to 2017 with some churn on that result. Labour gaining LDs and probably a large chunk of 2019 Labour leave abstainers returning to Labour as well at least for the time being.

    Very solid Tory vote. I think 40% is a ceiling for Labour despite David Herdson's predictions of a Labour lead this year which might not materialise. It'll probably take a while for the Tories to haemorrhage votes to the LDs if it happens at all, possibly not until the county council elections next year.
    Labour voteshare back to 2017 levels yes, Tory voteshare 2% up on the 42% they got in 2017
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020
    Irrelevant as the Tories won in 2019 on a manifesto of no indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon has accepted there can be no indyref2 without Westminster consent, plus that is only excluding Don't Knows who will likely go No anyway
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    It is a certainty.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Absolutely.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    No you hope that only because you hate the UK and love Brussels
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    malcolmg said:

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    It is a certainty.
    We will see
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:
    Absolutely.
    When the Conservative government of the UK bans indyref2 for the rest of the Parliament it will still look moderate compared to the actions of the Chinese government in Hong Kong and the Spanish government in Catalonia (assuming there is no Unionist majority at Holyrood next year of course which is still not impossible).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Six of Trump's staff who are organizing tonight's rally of the faithful have tested positive for virus says BBC.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Sky now reporting that the police saying it is terrorism.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
    Including actual racists.

    They have also made the Hawiian shirt a right wing symbol too.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Absolutely.
    When the Conservative government of the UK bans indyref2 for the rest of the Parliament it will still look moderate compared to the actions of the Chinese government in Hong Kong and the Spanish government in Catalonia (assuming there is no Unionist majority at Holyrood next year of course which is still not impossible).
    Fire up the Panzers and get them up the A1!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Absolutely.
    When the Conservative government of the UK bans indyref2 for the rest of the Parliament it will still look moderate compared to the actions of the Chinese government in Hong Kong and the Spanish government in Catalonia (assuming there is no Unionist majority at Holyrood next year of course which is still not impossible).
    cuckoo
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    No you hope that only because you hate the UK and love Brussels
    Are you suggesting that there might be people that base their half arsed predictions on Scottish indy on loving the UK and hating the EU? Shocked, I am.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,357
    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    It is a certainty.
    We will see
    we shall indeed and in the very near future
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,224
    malcolmg said:

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    It is a certainty.
    Nothing is certain, malcolm. But it does appear a distinct possibility.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    3 dead 2 critically injured in Reading.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,294
    Prediction... if there's another indyref, Boris will not (nor anyone as unpopular as him in Scotland) be PM. I still think Labour PM or wet Tory PM during indyref2 = Scotland rejecting indy again.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yet again only movement LD to Labour, Tory voteshare unchanged on GE19
    On a GB basis Labour is up 7% with the Tories dropping 0.7% - a swing to Labour of just under 4% .On basis of UNS that implies a Tory majority of 6 - depending on the outcome of Tory v SNP contests in Scotland.
    A huge drop in a short period of time, Labour is on the way to that swing he needs to form a minority Government
    Just a gentle nudge but have you heard the expression 'a week is a long time in politics'

    4 years is an eternity and anything can happen, especially post covid and brexit

    As far as I am concerned I am very relaxed about this now Corbyn has gone, with the only caveat, Starmer has to rid his party of anti semitism plus to move towards the centre



    generally
    I believe he will resolve anti-Semitism and gain a lot of voters as a result
    Complete horsehit.

    It is ingrained within the Party. The best he can do is threaten people and sweep it under the carpet
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    eadric said:

    lol. Wait til economic Armageddon hits... in about 3-6 months

    Indy will seem the least of our issues, north and south of the border.
    Yep.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    eadric said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sky now reporting that the police saying it is terrorism.

    Whoah
    TBH it was looking like it was going to turn out that way
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Prediction... if there's another indyref, Boris will not (nor anyone as unpopular as him in Scotland) be PM. I still think Labour PM or wet Tory PM during indyref2 = Scotland rejecting indy again.

    Mmm. If Boris falls behind in the polls, what better than sloughing off Scotland for 5 more Tory years?
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    In 500 years time SNP will still be talking about independence. It won't happen. They know where their benefits are buttered!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    malcolmg said:

    Floater said:

    malcolmg said:

    I think the next IndyRef will be a formality that will see a vote of 60%+ for independence. Some major unionist figures will defect and embrace the inevitable.

    It is a certainty.
    We will see
    we shall indeed and in the very near future
    Is that shorter than a generation?

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
    Including actual racists.

    They have also made the Hawiian shirt a right wing symbol too.
    Really?

    Someone will have to explain that one to me ... while I check the wardrobe :-)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    edited June 2020
    eadric said:

    lol. Wait til economic Armageddon hits... in about 3-6 months

    Indy will seem the least of our issues, north and south of the border.
    Folk that have year in, year out predicted that every spasm of English/British politics will be bad for Indy/the SNP should probably observe a period of dignified silence, or at least cobble together a poorly constructed new identity to peddle that old guff.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    "Mr. Trump, made aware of the sick campaign aides before departing for the rally, was incensed the news was made public, according to two people familiar with his reaction."
    (NYT)

    He can't stand to be reminded it exists can he?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    dixiedean said:

    Prediction... if there's another indyref, Boris will not (nor anyone as unpopular as him in Scotland) be PM. I still think Labour PM or wet Tory PM during indyref2 = Scotland rejecting indy again.

    Mmm. If Boris falls behind in the polls, what better than sloughing off Scotland for 5 more Tory years?
    If Boris lost Scotland he would go down as the worst PM since Lord North lost the American colonies, not happening.

    Scotland makes little difference anyway eg Blair won majorities in England alone in 1997, 2001 and 2005
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    HYUFD said:

    Irrelevant as the Tories won in 2019 on a manifesto of no indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon has accepted there can be no indyref2 without Westminster consent, plus that is only excluding Don't Knows who will likely go No anyway
    If a new Scottish Parliament votes for a new Sindy ref, there are two options for Westminster:
    1) pass the neseecary legislation to authorise it.
    2) refuse the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament, thereby pushing more people to the sense that London does not respect Scotland.

    With 1) the referendum will happen sooner, but can be won. With 2) it will happen later, but will certainly be lost. Unionists should support the former.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
    Including actual racists.

    They have also made the Hawiian shirt a right wing symbol too.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT8rB2deD5E
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Irrelevant as the Tories won in 2019 on a manifesto of no indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon has accepted there can be no indyref2 without Westminster consent, plus that is only excluding Don't Knows who will likely go No anyway
    If a new Scottish Parliament votes for a new Sindy ref, there are two options for Westminster:
    1) pass the neseecary legislation to authorise it.
    2) refuse the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament, thereby pushing more people to the sense that London does not respect Scotland.

    With 1) the referendum will happen sooner, but can be won. With 2) it will happen later, but will certainly be lost. Unionists should support the former.
    What's Cummings view?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Prediction... if there's another indyref, Boris will not (nor anyone as unpopular as him in Scotland) be PM. I still think Labour PM or wet Tory PM during indyref2 = Scotland rejecting indy again.

    Indeed, there will only indyref2 allowed by Westminster if Starmer becomes PM
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    eadric said:

    Floater said:

    eadric said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sky now reporting that the police saying it is terrorism.

    Whoah
    TBH it was looking like it was going to turn out that way
    Indeed. As I said below, 5 people "randomly" stabbed? Doesn't happen, outside extremely unusual psychos

    Judging by the video most/all of the victims are white

    The key will be whether there is a link, however tenuous, between the perp and BLM. That would be incendiary
    More so than if it were Islamic terrorism related?

    I don't think so
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    eadric said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    kle4 said:

    I feel very dumb indeed - I only just realised what antifa meant.

    :smile:

    So you probably had no clue what I meant on PT when I replied to your very important observation - that "blame on both sides does not mean EQUAL blame on both sides" - with a reference to the recent conflicts between the "Fash and the Antifa."
    Well I knew what they were about, I just didn't connect it with their name which I assumed referenced something.
    Whatever. The point - your point - is what's important. There is no equivalence between the 2 sides in this conflict. The racist hooligan Right are in a different league to the antifa Left. The former are ALL gormless goons whereas only a fraction of the latter are. Anyone who cannot see or acknowledge this has a big big problem and needs to have a stern word with themselves.
    Bullshit.

    The racist hooligan right and the nihilist violent left are exactly the same. Both seek only to destroy and exult in their victory, during that destruction

    To drill down, who was worse, the far right Hitler, or the far left Pol Pot?

    Hitler probably killed 25 million in his insane bid to exert racist German supremacy over Europe. But Pol Pot killed between a quarter and a third of his entire nation, for the sole reason that they might be educated, cultured, wore glasses: he saw all of human civilisation and advancement as an enemy.

    If Pol Pot had taken over the world (and the radical Maoists wanted to) would it have been a worse world than one run by Hitler? Quite possibly.

    Pol Pot killed people for having the wrong brain, Hitler killed people for having the wrong genes

    The extremes are mirror images.
    I'm talking about the 2 sides in these current street skirmishes not Hitler and Pol Pot! Let's park Hitler vs Pol Pot.

    Antifa demos have some bad people. The racist far right is ALL bad people. That's a key difference. Important to recognize this otherwise things go awry and people end up saying silly and reprehensible things.

    And we don't want that.
    I’m not at all convinced by your reasoning here. Anarchists (and these are anarchists, not anti fascists) are essentially violent criminals who deeply object to being told there are restraints on them.

    BLM may have been started with good intentions to respond to real, legitimate and urgent grievances, but it has been hijacked. If you had told me that the footage of Colston being toppled was actually footage of Nazis tearing down a statue of Marx I would have seen no particular reason to disbelieve you.
    But only a fraction of those on the anti racism demos are bad apples. On the other side they almost all are. I just think there is a difference and it shouldn't be lost in the noise of general condemnation.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    edited June 2020
    Floater said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    Foxy said:

    CatMan said:

    eadric said:

    lol #CancelYale is trending number 1 in the USA

    The Right began it as a joke, the Left has seized on it as a cause

    Like the OK hand symbol
    The White Power one?
    Yes. My understanding is that some people on the 4chan website made a joke about making the OK hand symbol racist, and it's now actually considered by a lot of people to be just that.
    Including actual racists.

    They have also made the Hawiian shirt a right wing symbol too.
    Really?

    Someone will have to explain that one to me ... while I check the wardrobe :-)
    Really. The boogaloo movement. A boogaloo is a second US civil war.

    These whackos sometimes turn up at rallies dressed in Hawaiian shirts with military combat fatigues.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    So Starmer has done it, back up to 40% and up to Corbyn's level at his peak.

    Polling parity gets ever closer

    Polls at this stage in the cycle are pointless as a predictive metric. But, Sir Keir has at least set foot on the long road to making Labour a professional electable force again. That is a long journey however, given how much damage the far-left visited upon the party in the preceding years.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    At least one Nat actually posting some worthwhile tweets tonight

    https://twitter.com/Ianblackford_MP/status/1274455168365596672?s=20
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Very wise. I think that too! I hate the u-turn gotcha, and have said so many times on here.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    So Starmer has done it, back up to 40% and up to Corbyn's level at his peak.

    Polling parity gets ever closer

    Polls at this stage in the cycle are pointless as a predictive metric. But, Sir Keir has at least set foot on the long road to making Labour a professional electable force again. That is a long journey however, given how much damage the far-left visited upon the party in the preceding years.
    On the other hand, as recently as April 2019 Labour was ahead in the polls - despite Corbyn et al.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Irrelevant as the Tories won in 2019 on a manifesto of no indyref2 for a generation and Sturgeon has accepted there can be no indyref2 without Westminster consent, plus that is only excluding Don't Knows who will likely go No anyway
    If a new Scottish Parliament votes for a new Sindy ref, there are two options for Westminster:
    1) pass the neseecary legislation to authorise it.
    2) refuse the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament, thereby pushing more people to the sense that London does not respect Scotland.

    With 1) the referendum will happen sooner, but can be won. With 2) it will happen later, but will certainly be lost. Unionists should support the former.
    No, referendums are unpredictable and the 2014 referendum was a 'once in a generation' vote in Salmond's words.

    Regardless of what Holyrood votes for there will not be another indyref2 allowed under a Tory government. End of conversation.

    Only a Labour government will allow indyref2
This discussion has been closed.