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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Andy Murray’s SPOTY victory could help the IndyRef NO campa

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited December 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Andy Murray’s SPOTY victory could help the IndyRef NO campaign

If you don’t believe that sport and politics are intricately linked just look at the Tweet above from the Mail’s Matt Chorley a few minutes after Andy Murray’s historic victory at Wimbledon in July. That Cameron was pictured against the backcloth the Saltire next to a smiling Alex Salmond was widely seen as a political coup for the SNP leader.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Huzzah for Murray
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    JackW said:

    Huzzah for Murray

    Full voting figures - Murray wins in a landslide :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/sports-personality/25386015

  • I doubt it. But it was certainly a British event. No-one from England in the top 3; a Kiwi coach of the year; a Wales-dominated Lions as team of the year; a special award for Sir Lex.

    If there is an Indy referendum angle, it's more that there can be no complaints of pro-English bias. That said, in an independent Scotland a Scot will always be SPOTY.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Is PB having its own SPOTY this year ?

    Superduper Poster Of The Year
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    Tennis stars will be competing under the Saltire at the Glagow games one month before the vote.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited December 2013
    What is this independence thing you refer to? I look forward to hearing more on this.

    Well done to Murray, 2012 removed the "British when winning, Scot in losing" tag in my eyes. Exceptional performance to win Wimbledon under the pressure placed on any home player.

    Spurs are becoming independent from the top 5 however.... Cookie or AVB having the worst Winter 2013?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Off-topic:

    Joan Fontaine has died. She and her sister (Olivia DeHavilland) are the only siblings to have won leading Academy Awards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Fontaine

    The sisters' cousin was Geoffrey DeHavilland, the famous aircraft designer who set up the company that designed the Mosquito, Comet and Trident planes.
  • Jonathan said:

    Tennis stars will be competing under the Saltire at the Glagow games one month before the vote.

    Is tennis in the Commonwealth Games? More generally, does anyone really care about them?

    In any case, one of the main reasons that the Commonwealth exists is because the Scots enthusiastically helped to create, build and sustain the British Empire.

  • Jonathan said:

    Tennis stars will be competing under the Saltire at the Glagow games one month before the vote.

    Is tennis in the Commonwealth Games? More generally, does anyone really care about them?

    In any case, one of the main reasons that the Commonwealth exists is because the Scots enthusiastically helped to create, build and sustain the British Empire.

    Table tennis.....

    http://www.sify.com/sports/murrays-mom-disappointed-at-non-inclusion-of-tennis-for-2014-cw-games-news-news-kj1ougcehii.html
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Didn't watch it, as it clashed with Homeland, but I'm glad Murray won. 55% is a crushing margin of victory too.

    Probably marginally helps No, not so much as a positive impact as the avoidance of a negative one had he lost.
  • Less of a boost for No than the absence of a boost for Yes. Good to see he won a landslide - it was the outstanding performance of the year by some way.
  • For the avoidance of doubt, I haven't performed a Vulcan mind meld with Morris Dancer.
  • Maybe I performed a Vulcan mind meld with you!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    In 1997 I used to share a house with a zealous professional organiser who admitted that he read EVERY item of news - gossip columns, weather forecasts, anything - in terms of "what will this do to voting intentions?" I know the feeling but think it should be resisted. My guess is that the SPOTY vote in 2013 will have no effect at all by the time of the referendum.

    The organiser, incidentally, won £100,000 in a poker tournament and lost all interest in politics to take up poker professionally. Temperamentally, I think, he could only really have one big thing in his life - I like to think that having a few other interests makes for more durable political people in the end...
  • Jonathan said:

    Tennis stars will be competing under the Saltire at the Glagow games one month before the vote.

    Incorrect.

    - "Archery and tennis from the 2010 games were replaced on the sports program with triathlon (for the first time since 2006) and judo (first time since 2002)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Commonwealth_Games#Sports
  • I think it's a shame archery isn't in the Commonwealth Games anymore. Excepting the oldest of ancient sports (discus, javelin, etc) archery would seem one of the most obvious to be included.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    I think it's a shame archery isn't in the Commonwealth Games anymore. Excepting the oldest of ancient sports (discus, javelin, etc) archery would seem one of the most obvious to be included.

    Triathlon is a much greater test of all-round skill and fitness and, more importantly from the organisers' point of view:

    1) It can be watched by many more spectators on the course;
    2) It is much more exciting for TV spectators.

    I love triathlon. I could play football if I wanted (poorly), and do archery (equally poorly). If I had set out to so a triathlon at the 2012 Olympics, I'd probably be just about finishing the swim now ...
  • Mind you, I'd like to see jousting as an Olympic/Commonwealth sport too. I think that'd be tremendous fun.
  • A more than worthy SPOTY winner after his Wimbledon victory – well done Andy.


    Hmmm, a ‘political coup’ or a tacky stunt ? – Meanwhile, the rest of the world saw Andy Murray’s preferred flag of choice.

    http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/01751/murray_1751244a.jpg

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Nice to see that lovely-cuddly Labour are bringing in an anti-slavery bill:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25389760

    Oh hang on, it's the evil baby-eating Tories ...

    (Although Frank Field needs a great deal of credit as well)
  • Miliband's housing policy:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25396103

    Point of order: "They [building firm profits] have soared 557% since this government took office - even though homes have been built at their slowest rate witnessed in peacetime for almost a century."

    Isn't that factually inaccurate? I thought homes now were being built at a more rapid pace than during most/all of Labour's recent time in office.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2013

    Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
    It all depends on how you define slavery ...
  • Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
    It all depends on how you define slavery ...
    What are the specific things that are currently legal that this bill would ban?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Miliband starts crying about housing in the middle of a house building boom ?

    He is 12 months too late - paying the price for being cautious.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
    It all depends on how you define slavery ...
    What are the specific things that are currently legal that this bill would ban?
    May I suggest you RTFA?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25389760
    The Modern Slavery Bill aims to consolidate the offences used to prosecute those who enslave others into a single act.

    It provides for automatic life sentences for offenders with prior convictions for very serious sexual or violent offences.

    Alongside the draft legislation, a review into modern slavery commissioned by the Home Office and carried out by Labour MP Frank Field will also be published.

    Mr Field estimates that there are 10,000 victims of slavery in the UK.

    But Mrs May told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The honest position is that we don't know whether that is the right figure, or whether there are fewer or indeed more victims in the UK.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Tennis stars will be competing under the Saltire at the Glagow games one month before the vote.

    Lol. No tennis in the CG. Any markets on home grown gold medals ? Surely one that Eck can attend the medal ceremony ?
  • Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
    It all depends on how you define slavery ...
    What are the specific things that are currently legal that this bill would ban?
    May I suggest you RTFA?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25389760
    The Modern Slavery Bill aims to consolidate the offences used to prosecute those who enslave others into a single act.

    It provides for automatic life sentences for offenders with prior convictions for very serious sexual or violent offences.

    Alongside the draft legislation, a review into modern slavery commissioned by the Home Office and carried out by Labour MP Frank Field will also be published.

    Mr Field estimates that there are 10,000 victims of slavery in the UK.

    But Mrs May told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The honest position is that we don't know whether that is the right figure, or whether there are fewer or indeed more victims in the UK.
    I saw that but I didn't really get it. Is it more of a deterrent to be prosecuted under one single law instead of several different laws?

    Automatic life sentences are meaningful and make for excellent politics, but deeply shitty government. Courts should have some discretion based on hearing what actually happened.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited December 2013

    Miliband's housing policy:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25396103

    Point of order: "They [building firm profits] have soared 557% since this government took office - even though homes have been built at their slowest rate witnessed in peacetime for almost a century."

    Isn't that factually inaccurate? I thought homes now were being built at a more rapid pace than during most/all of Labour's recent time in office.

    The latest DCLG statistics for house building are for the quarter ending September 2013.

    I have extracted a couple of statements from the key findings of the release:

    • seasonally adjusted starts are now 89% above the trough in the March quarter 2009 but 34% below the March quarter 2007 peak; completions are 40% below their March quarter 2007 peak

    • annual housing starts totalled 117,110 in the 12 months to September 2013, up by 16% compared with the year before; annual housing completions in England totalled 107,950 in the 12 months to September 2013, a decrease of 8% compared with the previous 12 months


    Bearing in mind that property sales transactions and mortgage approvals have been running at around 40% of pre-crisis peak for most of this year, the ratio of speculative private sector house building to known current demand is probably at its historical high.
  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    Nick Palmer at 8.29. Was your ex-flat mate Des Wilson by any chance? He quit politics for poker.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Ok you rotten lot .... yes you too !!

    I notice no answers .... not one .... to Saturdays JackW Chrimbo Quiz ....

    So I've written to Santa and he's agreed no Christmas presents or nosh or booze unless the question is answered.

    And there's more as the question was Labour orientated Santa has also confirmed that they get to keep Ed Balls as a prize !!

    So here it is again :

    Who are these three Labour worthies and what historic post links them all :

    a. Was he still platting his hair as leader. No ice axe required.
    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's housing policy:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25396103

    Point of order: "They [building firm profits] have soared 557% since this government took office - even though homes have been built at their slowest rate witnessed in peacetime for almost a century."

    Isn't that factually inaccurate? I thought homes now were being built at a more rapid pace than during most/all of Labour's recent time in office.

    The latest DCLG statistics for house building are for the quarter ending September 2013.

    I have extracted a couple of statements from the key findings of the release:

    • seasonally adjusted starts are now 89% above the trough in the March quarter 2009 but 34% below the March quarter 2007 peak; completions are 40% below their March quarter 2007 peak

    • annual housing starts totalled 117,110 in the 12 months to September 2013, up by 16% compared with the year before; annual housing completions in England totalled 107,950 in the 12 months to September 2013, a decrease of 8% compared with the previous 12 months


    Bearing in mind that property sales transactions and mortgage approvals have been running at around 40% of pre-crisis peak for most of this year, the ratio of speculative private sector house building to known current demand is probably at its historical high.
    Avery - some more sleuthy types might investigate the industry anecdote that building materials are in short supply and that many projects are held up by the inability to source materials rather than land....
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    JackW said:

    Ok you rotten lot .... yes you too !!

    I notice no answers .... not one .... to Saturdays JackW Chrimbo Quiz ....

    So I've written to Santa and he's agreed no Christmas presents or nosh or booze unless the question is answered.

    And there's more as the question was Labour orientated Santa has also confirmed that they get to keep Ed Balls as a prize !!

    So here it is again :

    Who are these three Labour worthies and what historic post links them all :

    a. Was he still platting his hair as leader. No ice axe required.
    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.

    1. John Robert Clynes, MP for Manchester Platting?

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Some movement in the Betfair most seats market over the weekend and not all down to my small wagers.

    Lab 1.81-1.82
    Con 2.26 -2.28

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    AveryLP said:

    JackW said:

    Ok you rotten lot .... yes you too !!

    I notice no answers .... not one .... to Saturdays JackW Chrimbo Quiz ....

    So I've written to Santa and he's agreed no Christmas presents or nosh or booze unless the question is answered.

    And there's more as the question was Labour orientated Santa has also confirmed that they get to keep Ed Balls as a prize !!

    So here it is again :

    Who are these three Labour worthies and what historic post links them all :

    a. Was he still platting his hair as leader. No ice axe required.
    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.

    1. John Robert Clynes, MP for Manchester Platting?

    Correct. One of the early, but largely unknown Labour Party leaders. In government in 1930 he refused Trotsky asylum.

  • TGOHF said:

    Some movement in the Betfair most seats market over the weekend and not all down to my small wagers.

    Lab 1.81-1.82
    Con 2.26 -2.28

    You can get better odds, evens, on LAB by taking a wager out with Dan Hodges

  • Here's a question: should we necessarily be outlawing some of the more extreme BDSM and related lifestyles? Some Goreans take their lifestyle very seriously indeed. Others might well regard aspects of it as slavery.
  • antifrank said:

    Here's a question: should we necessarily be outlawing some of the more extreme BDSM and related lifestyles? Some Goreans take their lifestyle very seriously indeed. Others might well regard aspects of it as slavery.

    No, but from the BBC write-up it's not clear that they've done anything at all - it looks like they're going to rename some existing legislation, then send out a press release about it. Also they're going to require minimum life sentences in a small subset of cases where you'd normally get a life sentence anyhow, apart from in some weird obscure situation that nobody's thought of yet.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    antifrank said:

    Here's a question: should we necessarily be outlawing some of the more extreme BDSM and related lifestyles? Some Goreans take their lifestyle very seriously indeed. Others might well regard aspects of it as slavery.

    Hhhmmm .... I spot an opportunity

    BDSM Historic Holidays At Auchentennach Castle - Have A Spanking Good Time In The Highlands !!

    Is there a whacking profit to be made ??

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471

    Nice to see that [politicians] are bringing in an anti-slavery bill

    Blimey, is slavery still legal in the UK?
    It all depends on how you define slavery ...
    What are the specific things that are currently legal that this bill would ban?
    May I suggest you RTFA?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25389760
    The Modern Slavery Bill aims to consolidate the offences used to prosecute those who enslave others into a single act.

    It provides for automatic life sentences for offenders with prior convictions for very serious sexual or violent offences.

    Alongside the draft legislation, a review into modern slavery commissioned by the Home Office and carried out by Labour MP Frank Field will also be published.

    Mr Field estimates that there are 10,000 victims of slavery in the UK.

    But Mrs May told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The honest position is that we don't know whether that is the right figure, or whether there are fewer or indeed more victims in the UK.
    I saw that but I didn't really get it. Is it more of a deterrent to be prosecuted under one single law instead of several different laws?

    Automatic life sentences are meaningful and make for excellent politics, but deeply shitty government. Courts should have some discretion based on hearing what actually happened.

    I will leave it to one of the lawyers (or info after the announcement is made) to say how it has changed. But it seems to me (IANAL) that the definition of slavery is being widened, as well as encapsulating the laws into one.

    I understand your concern wrt automatic life sentences.
  • Mr. Antifrank, a brief recital of an event from what sounded like the 80s or 90s comes back to me here. At university a lecturer said that four gay men had been arrested and put on trial for participating in apparently consensual but very hardcore S&M.

    Whilst I have nothing against DS or similar it's quite hard to say whether someone's giving 'true' consent when they're locked in a chastity belt and may well get a flogging if they annoy their owner.

    I dislike the state getting involved in bedroom antics, though.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,568
    SandraM said:

    Nick Palmer at 8.29. Was your ex-flat mate Des Wilson by any chance? He quit politics for poker.

    No, Ian Oldershaw. I heard that he didn't repeat his tournament triumph and after a year or two went back to regular work, but not in politics. Really nice guy.

  • @Morris_Dancer You're thinking of Operation Spanner (so called because if you watched the video at the heart of the case, it made your nuts tighten).

    I was thinking of this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    Quick Economics Update

    There's economic data (principally Markit 'survey' data) out on both China and the Eurozone today. And, the big story has to be that the divergence of the French and Germany economies continues apace. The manufacturing Markit PMI data from Germany improved from 52.7 to 54.2, and remained at an elevated level (54.0) for service. In France, on the other hand, we saw both indicators worsen, and remain well below the 50 level that indicates stability. Manufacturing dropped from 48.4 to 47.1, while services dropped from 48.0 to 47.4. There was better news for the rest of the Eurozone, as the Markit Eurozone composite (which includes Italy, Spain, etc. etc.) improved in to 52.1, indicating that (outside France) the Eurozone is recovering, albeit at a tepid pace.

    Also out today was the China Markit PMI data, which was surprisingly weak, coming in at 50.5 (i.e. indicating that the Chinese economy is growing, but slowly). Now, while I would caution that the December PMI reflects the fact that Chinese factories tend to slow down post the pre-Christmas, it was nevertheless quite a lot worse than people expected.

    Other random data out this morning, Denmark's wholesale price index remains resolutely negative, increasing the risk of recession there. The Eurozone trade balance remains (perhaps too) healthy, showing a €14.5bn surplus in November, with Italy and the peripery making a positive contribution for a change.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,705
    Thanks for the correction re Tennis below. Remember the other Murray doing well in 2010 and assumed. My bad.

    Maybe it's not too late for the Murrays to change to Table Tennis?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Good morning, everyone.

    Didn't watch it, as it clashed with Homeland, but I'm glad Murray won. 55% is a crushing margin of victory too.

    Probably marginally helps No, not so much as a positive impact as the avoidance of a negative one had he lost.

    MD, what bollocks, pray tell how winning a poxy BBC title helps NO.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    rcs1000 said:

    Quick Economics Update

    There's economic data (principally Markit 'survey' data) out on both China and the Eurozone today. And, the big story has to be that the divergence of the French and Germany economies continues apace. The manufacturing Markit PMI data from Germany improved from 52.7 to 54.2, and remained at an elevated level (54.0) for service. In France, on the other hand, we saw both indicators worsen, and remain well below the 50 level that indicates stability. Manufacturing dropped from 48.4 to 47.1, while services dropped from 48.0 to 47.4. There was better news for the rest of the Eurozone, as the Markit Eurozone composite (which includes Italy, Spain, etc. etc.) improved in to 52.1, indicating that (outside France) the Eurozone is recovering, albeit at a tepid pace.

    Also out today was the China Markit PMI data, which was surprisingly weak, coming in at 50.5 (i.e. indicating that the Chinese economy is growing, but slowly). Now, while I would caution that the December PMI reflects the fact that Chinese factories tend to slow down post the pre-Christmas, it was nevertheless quite a lot worse than people expected.

    Other random data out this morning, Denmark's wholesale price index remains resolutely negative, increasing the risk of recession there. The Eurozone trade balance remains (perhaps too) healthy, showing a €14.5bn surplus in November, with Italy and the peripery making a positive contribution for a change.


    France really is in a bit of trouble. Fortunately for them, the state sector is so large that even the poor performance of the private sector will still allow GDP growth to continue...

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    malcolmg said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Didn't watch it, as it clashed with Homeland, but I'm glad Murray won. 55% is a crushing margin of victory too.

    Probably marginally helps No, not so much as a positive impact as the avoidance of a negative one had he lost.

    MD, what bollocks, pray tell how winning a poxy BBC title helps NO.
    Because it winds the YES camp up no end ?!?

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Thanks for the correction re Tennis below. Remember the other Murray doing well in 2010 and assumed. My bad.

    Maybe it's not too late for the Murrays to change to Table Tennis?

    Crown green bowls perhaps ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @NickPalmer

    Come along young Nicholas, get your brain engaged on the quiz - no more of the drink/poker fuelled memories .... well perhaps later !!
  • Mind you, I'd like to see jousting as an Olympic/Commonwealth sport too. I think that'd be tremendous fun.


    I've always thought the archery would be much more interesting if competitors were required to shoot at each other.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    edited December 2013
    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick Economics Update

    There's economic data (principally Markit 'survey' data) out on both China and the Eurozone today. And, the big story has to be that the divergence of the French and Germany economies continues apace. The manufacturing Markit PMI data from Germany improved from 52.7 to 54.2, and remained at an elevated level (54.0) for service. In France, on the other hand, we saw both indicators worsen, and remain well below the 50 level that indicates stability. Manufacturing dropped from 48.4 to 47.1, while services dropped from 48.0 to 47.4. There was better news for the rest of the Eurozone, as the Markit Eurozone composite (which includes Italy, Spain, etc. etc.) improved in to 52.1, indicating that (outside France) the Eurozone is recovering, albeit at a tepid pace.

    Also out today was the China Markit PMI data, which was surprisingly weak, coming in at 50.5 (i.e. indicating that the Chinese economy is growing, but slowly). Now, while I would caution that the December PMI reflects the fact that Chinese factories tend to slow down post the pre-Christmas, it was nevertheless quite a lot worse than people expected.

    Other random data out this morning, Denmark's wholesale price index remains resolutely negative, increasing the risk of recession there. The Eurozone trade balance remains (perhaps too) healthy, showing a €14.5bn surplus in November, with Italy and the peripery making a positive contribution for a change.


    France really is in a bit of trouble. Fortunately for them, the state sector is so large that even the poor performance of the private sector will still allow GDP growth to continue...

    56%.

    That's the proportion of French GDP accounted for by the state. Over the last five years, we have seen the state retreat in all the Eurozone periphery countries, and we're even seeing it now in the UK and the US (and we never had the same problems). France is the standout - it (whatever AE-P says) has not practised the economics of austerity. It must reform, or face crisis. (And that crisis has the potential to pull the Eurozone apart.)

    The only good news for France is that the countries around it are doing somewhat better, and therefore there should not be so much of a drag from the Spanish, etc. being in recession.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    ipsos-MORI need a slap for using the median on the figures Mike reposted today about fraud. They're statisticians, they know this, I can only assume they were going for the better headline. Some sort of measure of variance/spread would have been even better.

    The median response was half the mean response.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    Morning all :)

    Not many comments on the cricket but some rearguard defiance from England today whcih shows a degree of hope. Losing Bell before stumps the final blow I suspect.

    On the way to dropping off the car at the garage, heard an interview with Theresa May on LBC. Now, Nick Ferrari is about as sycophantic as it gets with any Conservative but even he was starting to get irritated with May's stonewalling on the anticipated numbers of Bulgarian and Romanian migrants post-January.

    I'm not quite sure if May is trying to sound tough because that's what Tory Home Secretaries are supposed to do but I get the sense she's (to use an awful metaphor) talking with one hand tied behind her back - there's what she says and what she'd like to say.

    I also wonder if, in the event of an election defeat, she really would stand herself for the leadership or ally behind Osborne (could she be Shadow Foreign Secreatry?)
  • The World Cup runs from 12th June - 13th July
    - during this time the media will be awash with the fortunes of the England team, with Scotland not being present. It will be a huge media event for the BBC, ITV and the London Press, which may emphasise how foreign the London media can feel to Scots.

    The Commonwealth Games runs from 23rd July - 3rd August
    - ordinarily the Commonwealth Games is relatively overlooked by the British media, and there certainly won't be the extent of coverage that was seen for the London Olympics. It will be a bigger deal for the hosts in Glasgow and, of course, Scots will compete under the flag of Scotland, separate from those of the rest of the UK.

    In sporting terms, I can't see how they would avoid the net effect of encouraging separateness rather than unity. In comparison, the Sport's Personality of the Year... is not going to have nearly as much effect.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,411
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25390456

    Mr Ratcliffe said Ineos recently agreed a deal for nuclear power in France at 45 euros (£37.94) per Mwh.

    Interesting.
  • rcs1000 said:

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick Economics Update

    There's economic data (principally Markit 'survey' data) out on both China and the Eurozone today. And, the big story has to be that the divergence of the French and Germany economies continues apace. The manufacturing Markit PMI data from Germany improved from 52.7 to 54.2, and remained at an elevated level (54.0) for service. In France, on the other hand, we saw both indicators worsen, and remain well below the 50 level that indicates stability. Manufacturing dropped from 48.4 to 47.1, while services dropped from 48.0 to 47.4. There was better news for the rest of the Eurozone, as the Markit Eurozone composite (which includes Italy, Spain, etc. etc.) improved in to 52.1, indicating that (outside France) the Eurozone is recovering, albeit at a tepid pace.

    Also out today was the China Markit PMI data, which was surprisingly weak, coming in at 50.5 (i.e. indicating that the Chinese economy is growing, but slowly). Now, while I would caution that the December PMI reflects the fact that Chinese factories tend to slow down post the pre-Christmas, it was nevertheless quite a lot worse than people expected.

    Other random data out this morning, Denmark's wholesale price index remains resolutely negative, increasing the risk of recession there. The Eurozone trade balance remains (perhaps too) healthy, showing a €14.5bn surplus in November, with Italy and the peripery making a positive contribution for a change.


    France really is in a bit of trouble. Fortunately for them, the state sector is so large that even the poor performance of the private sector will still allow GDP growth to continue...

    56%.

    That's the proportion of French GDP accounted for by the state. Over the last five years, we have seen the state retreat in all the Eurozone periphery countries, and we're even seeing it now in the UK and the US (and we never had the same problems). France is the standout - it (whatever AE-P says) has not practised the economics of austerity. It must reform, or face crisis. (And that crisis has the potential to pull the Eurozone apart.)

    The only good news for France is that the countries around it are doing somewhat better, and therefore there should not be so much of a drag from the Spanish, etc. being in recession.

    The French people have been taught for decades that the French economic model is the best in the world. They have a long way to go before they accept this is not the case. The rise of the FN is all about a refusal to accept reality and blaming others for what France has done to itself. Hollande promised what could not be achieved; Sarkozy promised change, but delivered none. That is one buggered country. And it is a huge shame because where the French are good in the private sector they are very, very good - as a whole much more imaginative, willing to invest in innovation etc, than we are. But they have a Napoleonic addiction to the state as a source of all goodness. Even I can see that this is a mistake!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    Pulpstar said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25390456

    Mr Ratcliffe said Ineos recently agreed a deal for nuclear power in France at 45 euros (£37.94) per Mwh.

    Interesting.

    Although it's worth pointing out the French already have the nuclear reactors. No-one will build a nuclear plant today, unless guaranteed at least £80MW/h or so.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2013
    Grandiose said:

    ipsos-MORI need a slap for using the median on the figures Mike reposted today about fraud. They're statisticians, they know this, I can only assume they were going for the better headline. Some sort of measure of variance/spread would have been even better.

    The median response was half the mean response.

    So I guess the executive summary would be that just over half the population are unbelievably clueless, but there's a large, well-informed minority?

    If the latter is growing we could be in for a lot of political upheaval when the system tips from majority-moron to majority-smart.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,631
    edited December 2013

    rcs1000 said:

    JonathanD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Quick Economics Update

    There's economic data (principally Markit 'survey' data) out on both China and the Eurozone today. And, the big story has to be that the divergence of the French and Germany economies continues apace. The manufacturing Markit PMI data from Germany improved from 52.7 to 54.2, and remained at an elevated level (54.0) for service. In France, on the other hand, we saw both indicators worsen, and remain well below the 50 level that indicates stability. Manufacturing dropped from 48.4 to 47.1, while services dropped from 48.0 to 47.4. There was better news for the rest of the Eurozone, as the Markit Eurozone composite (which includes Italy, Spain, etc. etc.) improved in to 52.1, indicating that (outside France) the Eurozone is recovering, albeit at a tepid pace.

    Also out today was the China Markit PMI data, which was surprisingly weak, coming in at 50.5 (i.e. indicating that the Chinese economy is growing, but slowly). Now, while I would caution that the December PMI reflects the fact that Chinese factories tend to slow down post the pre-Christmas, it was nevertheless quite a lot worse than people expected.

    Other random data out this morning, Denmark's wholesale price index remains resolutely negative, increasing the risk of recession there. The Eurozone trade balance remains (perhaps too) healthy, showing a €14.5bn surplus in November, with Italy and the peripery making a positive contribution for a change.


    France really is in a bit of trouble. Fortunately for them, the state sector is so large that even the poor performance of the private sector will still allow GDP growth to continue...

    56%.

    That's the proportion of French GDP accounted for by the state. Over the last five years, we have seen the state retreat in all the Eurozone periphery countries, and we're even seeing it now in the UK and the US (and we never had the same problems). France is the standout - it (whatever AE-P says) has not practised the economics of austerity. It must reform, or face crisis. (And that crisis has the potential to pull the Eurozone apart.)

    The only good news for France is that the countries around it are doing somewhat better, and therefore there should not be so much of a drag from the Spanish, etc. being in recession.

    The French people have been taught for decades that the French economic model is the best in the world. They have a long way to go before they accept this is not the case. The rise of the FN is all about a refusal to accept reality and blaming others for what France has done to itself. Hollande promised what could not be achieved; Sarkozy promised change, but delivered none. That is one buggered country. And it is a huge shame because where the French are good in the private sector they are very, very good - as a whole much more imaginative, willing to invest in innovation etc, than we are. But they have a Napoleonic addiction to the state as a source of all goodness. Even I can see that this is a mistake!
    Yes.

    I divide political parties into two groups:

    Those who believe in the magic money tree, and
    Those who do not

    In France, almost everyone is a believer (Holland and the FN are fully paid up believers). In the UK, historically the Conservative Party were the only sceptics. Recently, the LibDems have become reluctant converts.

    Can the French discover the truth in time?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Extra quiz clues you useless lot !!

    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.

    b. Surely not a p0rn baron
    c. A friend of a bear from Peru ?
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited December 2013
    I see that, fresh from his triumph in wrecking investment in our energy infrastructure, Ed 'François' Miliband is trying to repeat the trick on housebuilding.

    In his speech on Monday, Mr Miliband will say that profits of the country's four biggest housing developers - Barratt, Berkeley, Persimmon and Taylor Wimpey - are "going through the roof".

    "They have soared 557% since this government took office - even though homes have been built at their slowest rate witnessed in peacetime for almost a century.


    So, Ed's method for getting more houses built is to attack those companies which are actually having the temerity to build and sell houses as fast at they possibly can, as they recover from a disastrous collapse in the market which almost bankrupted some of them and led to major cash calls on shareholders.

    It's hard to know whether he really is so stupid and ignorant as not to understand risk and reward in investment, or whether he is so cynical and irresponsible that he doesn't care. I fear it's the former (the worse of the two), but, either way, this is further proof, if any were needed, that if he ends up in No 10, Ed Miliband will be most disastrous Prime Minister for many decades.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    I see that, fresh from his triumph in wrecking investment in our energy infrastructure, Ed 'François' Miliband is trying to repeat the trick on housebuilding.

    In his speech on Monday, Mr Miliband will say that profits of the country's four biggest housing developers - Barratt, Berkeley, Persimmon and Taylor Wimpey - are "going through the roof".

    "They have soared 557% since this government took office - even though homes have been built at their slowest rate witnessed in peacetime for almost a century.


    So, Ed's method for getting more houses built is to attack those companies which are actually having the temerity to build and sell houses as fast at they possibly can, as they recover from a disastrous collapse in the market which almost bankrupted some of them and led to major cash calls on shareholders.

    It's hard to know whether he really is so stupid and ignorant as not to understand risk and reward in investment, or whether he is so cynical and irresponsible that he doesn't care. I fear it's the former (the worse of the two), but, either way, this is further proof, if any were needed, that if he ends up in No 10, Ed Miliband will be most disastrous Prime Minister for many decades.

    It is of a piece with Ed Balls making a song and dance about Osborne being in Brussels instead of the Commons last week "where he was fighting a court case to protect bankers' bonuses."

    As the Shadow Chancellor really ought to be aware more than 70% of the Bankers' bonuses of over £1m paid in whole of the EU are paid in London generating low billions for the Treasury. He really should have been asked for a list of the hospitals he wanted to close in the event that Osborne was not successful (as I think he will be).

    Ed M is allegedly trying a charm offensive with business at the moment. I think he needs to stop concentrating on the second part of that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    BTW it appears that I was just slightly pessimistic last night in forecasting that the Ashes would be officially lost as I slept. The greed of the Australians for runs and their desire to really rub England's face in it means the sorry story trips into another day.
  • DavidL said:

    BTW it appears that I was just slightly pessimistic last night in forecasting that the Ashes would be officially lost as I slept. The greed of the Australians for runs and their desire to really rub England's face in it means the sorry story trips into another day.

    Stokes has done very well. Hopefully, he'll get a good run in the side now. He has a lot to learn - especially with his bowling - but there is real promise.

  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    Jack W. Paddington bear was befriended by the Brown family. It's not Gordon Brown is it? Is that too obvious?
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited December 2013
    AVB gone.

    Before Xmas as SO predicted ages ago.

    Pity but almost inevitable if you stand back - had a go at the fans, didn't play the 'spurs way' BUT had a great win % compared to virtually all our other managers... really not sure we shouldn't have given him until after the FA Cup game at Arsenal. Seen what we'd done by then.
  • To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I read that at the top of the property market the Chancellor's move on capital gains tax is putting some foreign buyers off.

    If the top softens next year that will affect the whole market - I think predictions of an 8% increase across the board are incorrect.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited December 2013
    When will the really thick Greens realise that Fracking is not so much about lowering gas prices but more about securing our energy supplies..
  • AVB gone.

    Before Xmas as SO predicted ages ago.

    Pity but almost inevitable if you stand back - had a go at the fans, didn't play the 'spurs way' BUT had a great win % compared to virtually all our other managers... really not sure we shouldn't have given him until after the FA Cup game at Arsenal. Seen what we'd done by then.

    It's the Spurs way. A real shame, but there you go. We have West Ham on Wednesday in the League Cup quarters. That should be fun now.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    DavidL said:

    BTW it appears that I was just slightly pessimistic last night in forecasting that the Ashes would be officially lost as I slept. The greed of the Australians for runs and their desire to really rub England's face in it means the sorry story trips into another day.

    Stokes has done very well. Hopefully, he'll get a good run in the side now. He has a lot to learn - especially with his bowling - but there is real promise.

    He still looks a little high at 6 to me but a good innings in difficult circumstances.

    As a bowler I am not so sure but so long as he is a 5th bowler it is an added extra.

    I would drop Prior (who will now score a century tomorrow), bring in Bairstow, bat him at 6 and put Stokes in at 7.

    I think England need to ring the changes for the dead rubbers. This team looks psycologically as well as physically beat.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Hopefully they will heap scorn upon Ed. How many people do housebuilders employ?

    Ed's labour has a visceral hatred of anyone making a few quid.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    SandraM said:

    Jack W. Paddington bear was befriended by the Brown family. It's not Gordon Brown is it? Is that too obvious?

    No but Paddington is a good clue.

  • Before tim's latest pb-break, he was encouraging me that Spurs were good value vs Liverpool and I believe it was he who went so far as to say (paraphrasing) 'sorry SO but Spurs are on the up'.

    I may be mistaken as I type through the pain at the lane.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025

    AVB gone.

    Before Xmas as SO predicted ages ago.

    Pity but almost inevitable if you stand back - had a go at the fans, didn't play the 'spurs way' BUT had a great win % compared to virtually all our other managers... really not sure we shouldn't have given him until after the FA Cup game at Arsenal. Seen what we'd done by then.

    It's the Spurs way. A real shame, but there you go. We have West Ham on Wednesday in the League Cup quarters. That should be fun now.

    Seems harsh. He was still doing better than David Moyes. I got my hopes up when I read he was taking full responsibility recently but it turns out it was like a politician taking responsibility: there was no consequence.

    How Ferguson won the league with this lot last year...one of his greatest achievements as a manager.
  • Meanwhile Arsenal and Man City get their predicted easy draws....
  • antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



  • Before tim's latest pb-break, he was encouraging me that Spurs were good value vs Liverpool and I believe it was he who went so far as to say (paraphrasing) 'sorry SO but Spurs are on the up'.

    I may be mistaken as I type through the pain at the lane.

    Is tim on a break? I thought the site was unusally good humoured.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    Massive over reaction from the Spurs board. AVB needed more time yo get the squad working. Question now is who the hell do we get in to replace him. There isn't really a top tier manager out there right now. Unless Harry and Levy have kissed and made up...
  • Cheers for those who posted a bit more info about housebuilding firms and their recent losses.

    Ed Miliband sounds like not only an opportunistic little shit, but a very ill-informed one. His Marxist war on profits is not necessarily helpful to the economy.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



    So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    PB sacks "tim"
    Spurs sack AVB

    Ed Balls gone into hiding ??
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Before tim's latest pb-break, he was encouraging me that Spurs were good value vs Liverpool and I believe it was he who went so far as to say (paraphrasing) 'sorry SO but Spurs are on the up'.

    I may be mistaken as I type through the pain at the lane.

    Is tim on a break? I thought the site was unusally good humoured.
    He's been banned. Again.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited December 2013
    JackW said:

    Extra quiz clues you useless lot !!

    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.

    b. Surely not a p0rn baron
    c. A friend of a bear from Peru ?

    Baroness Jay (Crow) of Paddington is the link and Jim the answer, Home Secretaries /Leaders being the common factor.

    ?

  • MaxPB said:

    Massive over reaction from the Spurs board. AVB needed more time yo get the squad working. Question now is who the hell do we get in to replace him. There isn't really a top tier manager out there right now. Unless Harry and Levy have kissed and made up...

    Tim Sherwood is highly rated at Spurs. It might be him. More to the point, what is the new man's brief? Spurs are not going to get relegated and we are not going to get into the CL. That was the case last night as well. So what do you actually achieve by bringing in someone new? It's a puzzler, but it's what Spurs always do. As soon as we lost at home to West Ham it was pretty clear it would end this way. I think it's a real shame, but that's Spurs for you.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Cheers for those who posted a bit more info about housebuilding firms and their recent losses.

    Ed Miliband sounds like not only an opportunistic little shit, but a very ill-informed one. His Marxist war on profits is not necessarily helpful to the economy.

    He's left this housing bandwagon far too late - the industry is booming churning out houses.

    Massive error by Miliband - too timid and too busy fighting his union retreat to get on this earlier.

    Epic fail.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Before tim's latest pb-break, he was encouraging me that Spurs were good value vs Liverpool and I believe it was he who went so far as to say (paraphrasing) 'sorry SO but Spurs are on the up'.

    I may be mistaken as I type through the pain at the lane.

    Is tim on a break? I thought the site was unusally good humoured.
    He's spending more time with his friesians

  • SouthCoastKevinSouthCoastKevin Posts: 158
    edited December 2013

    So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?

    This is the thing - Miliband's approach seems so utterly kneejerk and short-termist. Not to mention liable to severely discourage businesses from actually, you know, doing business in this country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



    Land investment wouldn't necessarily show up on a P&L as the asset would be taken on the balance sheet. That's how is works for us when we invest in plants, property and equipment related to the business.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,955

    So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?

    Unless there is an actual monopoly or cartel I don't think there is such a thing as a business being "too profitable".

    EM is going to be a bloody disaster for this country.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited December 2013


    So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?

    Probably not the best example - if I understand Southam's business right the whole thing is built on IP, which is a set of government-invented statutory monopolies, which allow you to shut out competitors to achieve an alleged ultimate gain for consumers. If it turns out (as it may well do) that the system is working well for him and his rights-owning customers but badly for consumers and people innovating to make useful stuff for them, then the government should certainly be stepping in to redress the balance, probably by changing the terms of those monopolies.

    On Ed Miliband's latest thing, I suspect it'll turn out to be a load of cynical populist political grandstanding, but let's see what he actually says.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064

    MaxPB said:

    Massive over reaction from the Spurs board. AVB needed more time yo get the squad working. Question now is who the hell do we get in to replace him. There isn't really a top tier manager out there right now. Unless Harry and Levy have kissed and made up...

    Tim Sherwood is highly rated at Spurs. It might be him. More to the point, what is the new man's brief? Spurs are not going to get relegated and we are not going to get into the CL. That was the case last night as well. So what do you actually achieve by bringing in someone new? It's a puzzler, but it's what Spurs always do. As soon as we lost at home to West Ham it was pretty clear it would end this way. I think it's a real shame, but that's Spurs for you.
    I don't think Sherwood has the star power for out squad of primadonnas
    Nice guy though. Levy should coax Fergie out for one last season!
  • MaxPB said:

    antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



    Land investment wouldn't necessarily show up on a P&L as the asset would be taken on the balance sheet. That's how is works for us when we invest in plants, property and equipment related to the business.

    Maybe - I don't know. However, land is a builder's business. It's not yours. If you look at the revenues that the companies are generating, they are pretty solid - and clearly the markets are confident about the future.
  • I don't suppose SAF fancies a little project in his retirement, down in the North London area?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    AveryLP said:

    JackW said:

    Extra quiz clues you useless lot !!

    b. A French Lieutenants Woman's father in law
    c. Thelma had become a bit of a crow for some years.

    b. Surely not a p0rn baron
    c. A friend of a bear from Peru ?

    Baroness Jay (Crow) of Paddington is the link and Jim the answer, Home Secretaries /Leaders being the common factor.

    ?

    Partially correct. Baroness Jay of Paddington is person c

    She had a well publicised affair with Carl Bernstein of "Watergate" fame. His wife then wrote a novel called "Heartburn" with Jay as the character "Thelma"

    Home Secretary/leaders not the common factor

  • antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



    So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?

    Nope. But I am not involved in house building. I do not think it is unreasonable to do all that is possible to ensure that the country's housing needs are met. The land is a national resource and should be managed as such. Whether Miliband's approach is right or not, I don't know. A couple of sentences out of a big speech are not going to tell us very much.

  • So you'd be perfectly happy for Miliband to interfere with your business if he felt it was too profitable, or your employees weren't reaping the same rewards as you?

    This is the thing - Miliband's approach seems so utterly kneejerk and short-termist. Not to mention liable to severely discourage businesses from actually, you know, doing business in this country.

    People will always build houses. What we need is a market that incentivises them to do it at the rate it is needed. Clearly, we have not had that for many a long year.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    MaxPB said:

    antifrank said:

    To make Richard Nabavi's point about the financial illiteracy of Ed Miliband on housebuilders, here are the last five years' profits and losses of those companies:

    http://www.barrattdevelopments.co.uk/barratt/en/investor/performance/five
    http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/media/pdf/8/g/Annual-Report-2013.pdf#page=117
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=PSN
    http://www.redmayne.co.uk/research/securitydetails/financials.htm?tkr=TW.

    Three out of four of these have made more losses than profits in the last five years.

    Profit and loss at big businesses (which our big house builders are) over a five year period are not necessarily indicators of anything much. Losses are sometimes rather nice if they help you from a tax perspective' They may also indicate investments - such as land purchases in the case of builders - that will reap major gains further down the line. If you buy a lot of land when the market is flat, then start building when it picks up, you will show losses for a while. But then you will show profits. The issue is whether what works for house builders works for the country. There has to be an alignment of needs. I don't know if Ed has the solution, but he is absolutely right to be asking the question.



    Land investment wouldn't necessarily show up on a P&L as the asset would be taken on the balance sheet. That's how is works for us when we invest in plants, property and equipment related to the business.
    Max

    Tax treatment will depend on whether the investment in land forms part of a trading or core business activity, or whether it is a "structural asset" incidental to the company's core business.

    Capital gains/losses on property assets are generally charged to the profit and loss account on disposal or on periodic revaluation (e.g. when accounting policy of company is to revalue every five years).
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