politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another evening and another PB NightHawks cafe
A strange day with differing developments. The thing that sriked me as most important has been what has happened in Germany – the European country that seemed to be doing best.
I missed this being debated,... can someone tell me why Worldometers s showing an increase of UK deaths as 4,419 for today? I'm guessing it is including a new source, maybe ONS figures?
I agree with you Mike. There is greater restlessness.
We need to see a plan within the next week even if some of the relaxations care scheduled for June or July
That much has been obvious for weeks. For the more far-sighted of us, it would've been obvious from the outset. Perhaps, indeed, this is one of the reasons that the Government hesitated to lock down to begin with - that ministers themselves or the behavioural boffins anticipated that lockdown fatigue would not be very long in coming?
People can potentially put up with this for a good while longer, but they need hope and a rational plan. If it drags on indefinitely then they'll despair (as we saw with one of our own regular posters on the previous thread,) conclude that they can't tolerate going on like this, and the lockdown will collapse in an uncontrolled fashion.
We're not a police state. The Government doesn't want to try to impose measures upon the population, and it doesn't have the power to do it either if sufficient numbers of us rebel. They need to carry at least the large majority of the people with them, and that necessitates the maintaining of confidence.
I missed this being debated,... can someone tell me why Worldometers s showing an increase of UK deaths as 4,419 for today? I'm guessing it is including a new source, maybe ONS figures?
Deaths outside hospitals with a positive test (care homes / hospices / home) were added, with the overwhelming majority being backdated (starting from March).
The front page of the guardian is one of incredible bits of spin i have seen in quite a long time. They complain that the 50k tests today were boosted by the fact there were retests, with the implication that a) government up to something dodgy and / or b) cocked up tests....
Except we know every day it is perfectly normal, and actually required, to test some people more than once. It is actually a good thing if they are getting the people tested multiple times very quickly.
Germans estimating Rt back at 0.75, so the apparent bounce was seemingly just noise. Probably quite important for our policy-makers.
Probably not. It's given them a great excuse for doing nothing a week Thursday, which is exactly what they wanted to do anyway.
SAGE needs balancing with other risk, behavioural, social and economic advisors.
I am expecting Boris to announce on 7 May:
Opening of smaller non-essential shops and of course garden centres subject to social distancing measures
A relaxation to social distancing within houses to allow family members in different residences to meet
To apply from 11 May.
Partial reopening of schools 1 June
Restaurants, gyms and possibly pubs with restrictions 22 June
Relaxation of restrictions 12 July
These are all at three week intervals and will be subject to ongoing assessment against the 5 tests
That's a precise and well reasoned summary.
Massively, massively overoptimistic.
A clear positive plan issued soon is essential for the welfare of the country. My timescales may be a bit out but I don't think they are unreasonable. We need the economy essentially unlocked by 30 June
Germans estimating Rt back at 0.75, so the apparent bounce was seemingly just noise. Probably quite important for our policy-makers.
Probably not. It's given them a great excuse for doing nothing a week Thursday, which is exactly what they wanted to do anyway.
SAGE needs balancing with other risk, behavioural, social and economic advisors.
I am expecting Boris to announce on 7 May:
Opening of smaller non-essential shops and of course garden centres subject to social distancing measures
A relaxation to social distancing within houses to allow family members in different residences to meet
To apply from 11 May.
Partial reopening of schools 1 June
Restaurants, gyms and possibly pubs with restrictions 22 June
Relaxation of restrictions 12 July
These are all at three week intervals and will be subject to ongoing assessment against the 5 tests
That's a precise and well reasoned summary.
Massively, massively overoptimistic.
A clear positive plan issued soon is essential for the welfare of the country. My timescales may be a bit out but I don't think they are unreasonable. We need the economy essentially unlocked by 30 June
Germans estimating Rt back at 0.75, so the apparent bounce was seemingly just noise. Probably quite important for our policy-makers.
Probably not. It's given them a great excuse for doing nothing a week Thursday, which is exactly what they wanted to do anyway.
SAGE needs balancing with other risk, behavioural, social and economic advisors.
I am expecting Boris to announce on 7 May:
Opening of smaller non-essential shops and of course garden centres subject to social distancing measures
A relaxation to social distancing within houses to allow family members in different residences to meet
To apply from 11 May.
Partial reopening of schools 1 June
Restaurants, gyms and possibly pubs with restrictions 22 June
Relaxation of restrictions 12 July
These are all at three week intervals and will be subject to ongoing assessment against the 5 tests
That's a precise and well reasoned summary.
Massively, massively overoptimistic.
Seemed reasonable until the final two, I expect pubs to be closed until September at the earliest.
Restaurants and cafes I can see re-opening, although in practice it may only be larger and/or more pricey outlets than can afford to continue trading with the necessary spacing between the tables.
A lot of gyms and pubs have already had it. Big pub chains like Wetherspoons and the tied houses of large breweries might be able to ride it out and come back in a year or two, but a lot of the boozers will inevitably go to the wall. I think with the gyms it depends whether or not they are purpose built and owned by chains, or rented. The former - along with local authority premises - will be back at the end of all of this. The latter will get wiped out.
Gyms could've been designed to propagate this virus: indoor spaces full of people huffing and puffing on closely-packed pieces of machinery. Logically they should be among the very last places that are allowed to reopen.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
If we have enough patience then exponential decay can work for us as strongly as exponential growth worked against us, and then we can more confidently open up pubs, etc, safe in the knowledge we'd be unlikely to catch the virus with our pint.
Only doing half the job is mad. Let's finish it properly.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I prefer a healthy vigorous walk which sometimes involves going near Waitrose
I was chatting with a police constable this evening. Among the excuses given for essential travel was: “I’m visiting my prostitute”.
I was told that in the initial period of lockdown pretty well everyone driving at night turned out to be a criminal. Police raids are going beautifully because everyone is at home.
He’s thoroughly enjoying himself, so far as I can see.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I prefer a healthy vigorous walk which sometimes involves going near Waitrose
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I’m setting up a home gym. I need a few more bits and pieces but I doubt I’ll be going back to a commercial gym now.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I prefer a healthy vigorous walk which sometimes involves going near Waitrose
You know what, Germany is sobering, its also not completely unexpected. If the experience there is repeated elsewhere we may well have to change strategy as regards acceptable risk.
I read an article in the Sunday Times at the weekend about companies working on bringing in PPE from China. It wasn't running an agenda it was talking about the mechanics for those working in that business. One of those quoted said that demand for PPE is 20 times normal peak levels for seasonal flu and shipments from China are one fifth of what they used to be because China needs so much for itself. In that context the idea that the government can just turn this stuff up in a month or two is just stupid. Inevitably the gap will be filled but its going to take a bit of time still.
I'm not a believer that this virus was a deliberately released creation but I will say this. In the world of biological and chemical warfare there the concept of sub threshold weapons applies, i.e you can launch an attack and damage your opponents but not invite an equivalent damaging response. Its not overt, its not easily traced as a deliberate attack and it isn't direct but it cripples your opponents in some way. This virus would have made a very good sub threshold weapon. I suspect a few plague warriors are looking at this angle. Development of offensive bio weapon capacity for mass use still goes on there
Question for the all the amateur researchers, has anyone seen anything suggesting that severity of effects of this virus on people may be related to how quickly the body realises its there? I haven't seen anything but this virus is reportedly good at concealing itself to the body early on. It seems logical that an immune system that spots it early is going to result in less severity of impact than one that doesn't.
Where's Kim episode 5. At his retreat at Wonsan staying away from the plebs due to Coronavirus maybe? As it stands there is less suggestion that he is dead. Given his size, satellite pictures of the retreat might pick up the fat lad if went outside....
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
That's assuming there will be a packed anywhere. May well take a while for people to be happy to mix densely again. There will be an element of self-policing going on, though not sure how long that lasts.
I was chatting with a police constable this evening. Among the excuses given for essential travel was: “I’m visiting my prostitute”.
I was told that in the initial period of lockdown pretty well everyone driving at night turned out to be a criminal. Police raids are going beautifully because everyone is at home.
He’s thoroughly enjoying himself, so far as I can see.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I’m setting up a home gym. I need a few more bits and pieces but I doubt I’ll be going back to a commercial gym now.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia protest their being excluded from the "World".
Looks like yet another blindly-derived model based on a curve fitting tool being applied with no (much-needed) judgment overlaid on top. Or sense checking.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I’m setting up a home gym. I need a few more bits and pieces but I doubt I’ll be going back to a commercial gym now.
I might contemplate the same course of action, were it not for the fact that I inhabit a one bedroom flat rather than a decent-sized house. But such is life.
As it is I've been forced to go out running to avoid turning back into a blob, and have discovered that I prefer it. Basically, if other people (and, more specifically, their cars) don't become a serious impediment when this is all over, then I might not bother to go back to the gym either.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
Looks like yet another blindly-derived model based on a curve fitting tool being applied with no (much-needed) judgment overlaid on top. Or sense checking.
Guessing they're just extrapolating falling infection levels down to some low % of the population, and assuming after that govts will play whack-a-mole with contact tracing for any outbreaks.
if it was not form the WHO then it would have more credibility, but that sead, it seems that closing schools (under 10s at least) was pointless. Sweden still does not have a signal death in anybody under 20 from COVID and there schools are open
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
Yep - I'm not going back to city any more than I can get away with
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I am sure that is right. This will apply to our other City Centres. The night economy of Newcastle based around stag and hen parties is not coming back soon.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I am sure that is right. This will apply to our other City Centres. The night economy of Newcastle based around stag and hen parties is not coming back soon.
Depends on availability/effectiveness of vaccines, treatment regimes, contact tracing. Eventually, people will want to socialise again as soon as they feel it is safe to do so.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
But a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would be bullied from accepting future invites by their names being revealed?
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
Yes. Although I doubt many Government initiatives would have rebalanced by levelling everything down, which is what will happen here sadly.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
People who have the PM's ear? I can see why the government would want them kept secret, at least until after the fact.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I think openness about who is on these committees is important. Death threats are a matter for the police and should be vigorously investigaed.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
Large companies are starting to get misty eyed at the thought of cutting huge amounts off their fixed costs, and employees are similarly enticed by being able to ditch their commute, a chunk of their annual clothing expenses (not to mention dispensing with personal grooming), and - as you say - potentially live somewhere a whole lot cheaper into the bargain, at least some of the time.
Many of my colleagues in their 20s went back to their parents' as soon as we went to homeworking. If they stayed there after lockdown, they could be able to afford house purchases years earlier than would otherwise be possible.
Anecdotally, most companies seem to be coping far better than they would've thought last year. However, it's unclear how resilient we are to long term culture effects, like how you manage a business where customer service is paramount, if you can't tell get all your employees together and drill that into them. Over time, you just end up with a collection of individuals, rather than a functioning and coherent team.
Also, we've effectively frozen our summer internship program, because we can't see how we can onboard and train a bunch of students who need a lot of individual attention, remotely. Recruitment of experienced hires is also frozen until the lockdown ends. And we're not really sure how we'd manage our new graduates come September, either. So I think jury still out until those problems are a bit closer to resolved - it works in the short run, but some of the longer term stuff is still untested.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
True story: Tim Gowers once posted on his blog that the 1983 election result proved that the Tories didn't deserve to win because Labour and the Alliance polled about 53% between them. A number of people (including me) posted comments on his blog pointing out that research at the time showed that around a third of Alliance voters positively preferred the Conservatives to Labour and therefore if you added at least a third of the Alliance share of 25.4% — around 8.5% — to the Conservatives' share of 42.4% you'd get more than 50% and therefore it wasn't fair to conclude that the Conservatives didn't deserve to win the election. He conceded we were right and he was wrong.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I think openness about who is on these committees is important. Death threats are a matter for the police and should be vigorously investigaed.
By attending these meeting, they are given access to a lot of privileged information. A more mundane reason, they could be placed under a lot of pressure from investors or management to leverage this information.
if it was not form the WHO then it would have more credibility, but that sead, it seems that closing schools (under 10s at least) was pointless. Sweden still does not have a signal death in anybody under 20 from COVID and there schools are open
I've had a root around for UK stats on this issue and found a page for provisional death totals from Covid-19 as of 17 April, published by the ONS for England and Wales. Unfortunately the information provided isn't very fine-grained; the breakdown given by age is as follows:
0-14 years - 2 15-44 years - 227 45-64 years - 2,193 65-74 years - 3,294 75-84 years - 6,497 85+ years - 6,899
87% of all fatalities were therefore amongst patients aged 65 or over, which seems broadly comparable with recent statistics I accessed for Italy (broken down into slightly different age cohorts, which showed that 96% of deaths there were amongst the over-60s.)
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I think openness about who is on these committees is important. Death threats are a matter for the police and should be vigorously investigaed.
Why? Unless it somehow makes the advice better I don't think there is any pressing need to do so. In the fullness of time, certainly.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I think openness about who is on these committees is important. Death threats are a matter for the police and should be vigorously investigaed.
By attending these meeting, they are given access to a lot of privileged information. A more mundane reason, they could be placed under a lot of pressure from investors or management to leverage this information.
If that's your aim, you are going to find ways of getting the names without reading the Guardian.
I was chatting with a police constable this evening. Among the excuses given for essential travel was: “I’m visiting my prostitute”.
I was told that in the initial period of lockdown pretty well everyone driving at night turned out to be a criminal. Police raids are going beautifully because everyone is at home.
He’s thoroughly enjoying himself, so far as I can see.
I'm sure that's true - re: criminals. I usually walk around the block around late at night and (although it might just be my suspicious mind) it seems to be only cars of a certain type driving around, whereas previously you'd have seen mostly taxis. "Deliveries", perhaps.
The police have a new plane and it has taken to flying around in circles at about midnight, no doubt monitoring this traffic.
And gyms...there is absolutely no chance i am going to a gym. Sweaty people everywhere, touching all the equipment in an air conditioned room. Something like a spin class has to tick all the boxes for ideal coronavirus transmission!
I’m setting up a home gym. I need a few more bits and pieces but I doubt I’ll be going back to a commercial gym now.
I've got a treadmill, recumbent exercise bike, exercise bike, and a cross trainer in the house, and yet even now I barely use them. Which is almost impressive in the lockdown.
(I do use them a little, I hasten to add, but the lockdown buddy is the main user)
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I am sure that is right. This will apply to our other City Centres. The night economy of Newcastle based around stag and hen parties is not coming back soon.
Depends on availability/effectiveness of vaccines, treatment regimes, contact tracing. Eventually, people will want to socialise again as soon as they feel it is safe to do so.
Oh I agree. However by then all the bars and hotels and cheap eateries will have closed.
I was chatting with a police constable this evening. Among the excuses given for essential travel was: “I’m visiting my prostitute”.
I was told that in the initial period of lockdown pretty well everyone driving at night turned out to be a criminal. Police raids are going beautifully because everyone is at home.
He’s thoroughly enjoying himself, so far as I can see.
I think it was in The Truth that Terry Pratchett had the protagonist muse that the police (heroes of other books) would probably prefer it if people spent every day indoors watching each other's hands to make sure they didn't do anything. It strikes me there's some truth in that. Causes less trouble.
Given the level of power and influence ascribed to shadowy deep state figures by conspiracy theorists (and the implied incredible competence of those figures to achieve their aims) I for one would prefer if all advice and decisions were made secretly and anonymously, as it is clearly the most effective way.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
Large companies are starting to get misty eyed at the thought of cutting huge amounts off their fixed costs, and employees are similarly enticed by being able to ditch their commute, a chunk of their annual clothing expenses (not to mention dispensing with personal grooming), and - as you say - potentially live somewhere a whole lot cheaper into the bargain, at least some of the time.
Many of my colleagues in their 20s went back to their parents' as soon as we went to homeworking. If they stayed there after lockdown, they could be able to afford house purchases years earlier than would otherwise be possible.
Anecdotally, most companies seem to be coping far better than they would've thought last year. However, it's unclear how resilient we are to long term culture effects, like how you manage a business where customer service is paramount, if you can't tell get all your employees together and drill that into them. Over time, you just end up with a collection of individuals, rather than a functioning and coherent team.
Also, we've effectively frozen our summer internship program, because we can't see how we can onboard and train a bunch of students who need a lot of individual attention, remotely. Recruitment of experienced hires is also frozen until the lockdown ends. And we're not really sure how we'd manage our new graduates come September, either. So I think jury still out until those problems are a bit closer to resolved - it works in the short run, but some of the longer term stuff is still untested.
As I suggested in the previous thread, I think that home working patterns going forward will vary considerably between office-based businesses in London and other urban cores. Some employers will still want to have their people coming into the office full-time, but I reckon they'll be in the minority. Ditto those who ditch their central offices more-or-less entirely and perhaps just maintain a small central IT function and/or a nominal registered office.
Inbetween will be those that have people working part-time in the office and part-time at home, and those that have employees working most of the time at home but maintain meeting rooms for occasional get-togethers. One would suspect that those two groups of businesses will be the most numerous going forward.
I am very uncomfortable that these people are being named without their consent. It isn't necessary to know the top bod from DeepMinds was there in a story about what if any was Big Dom's influence.
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Why the need for secrecy? Why would anyone asked to attend wish to remain anonymous?
Because people are getting a serious amount of vitriol aimed at them, including death threats, whether they are seen as supporting the lockdown or opposing it.
I think openness about who is on these committees is important. Death threats are a matter for the police and should be vigorously investigaed.
By attending these meeting, they are given access to a lot of privileged information. A more mundane reason, they could be placed under a lot of pressure from investors or management to leverage this information.
If that's your aim, you are going to find ways of getting the names without reading the Guardian.
It isn't exactly an uncommon story to hear of academics in the past who have had secondary roles without their employer ever knowing. We know many spies have been recruited via this route.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I am sure that is right. This will apply to our other City Centres. The night economy of Newcastle based around stag and hen parties is not coming back soon.
Depends on availability/effectiveness of vaccines, treatment regimes, contact tracing. Eventually, people will want to socialise again as soon as they feel it is safe to do so.
Yes. Announcing the death of big cities is over dramatic. New York City boomed in the 1920s, after Spanish flu
Young people will Still want to meet young people. Restaurants and bars will thrive again, in time, because humans like socialising. The allures of working from home will fade, and for many they won’t exist. But yes there will be a large short-medium term hit to big cities across the world, especially the West
Unless we get a vaccine quick.
It's notable that the 1968 flu epidemic killed 80,000 people in the UK and yet it didn't seem to change things very much. The 1969 hippy festivals for example went ahead as far as I know.
Germany aren't entertaining the idea of opening pubs, clubs, cinema, etc u til the end of August.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
However in Italy they are reopening bars in June. And possibly in France and Spain too? And definitely Czech Republic 8 June.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Pubs aren't just pubs though. A quiet country pub with large garfen and generally quiet. Yep. City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
Agreed it may take a while for the City pub/bar scene on a Thursday to return to what is was in February!
If you're talking about the Square Mile then it probably never will.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I am sure that is right. This will apply to our other City Centres. The night economy of Newcastle based around stag and hen parties is not coming back soon.
Depends on availability/effectiveness of vaccines, treatment regimes, contact tracing. Eventually, people will want to socialise again as soon as they feel it is safe to do so.
Yes. Announcing the death of big cities is over dramatic. New York City boomed in the 1920s, after Spanish flu
Young people will Still want to meet young people. Restaurants and bars will thrive again, in time, because humans like socialising. The allures of working from home will fade, and for many they won’t exist. But yes there will be a large short-medium term hit to big cities across the world, especially the West
Unless we get a vaccine quick.
It's notable that the 1968 flu epidemic killed 80,000 people in the UK and yet it didn't seem to change things very much. The 1969 hippy festivals for example went ahead as far as I know.
But it was clearly far less serious. We're already at 50,000 deaths if you assume the official figures are undercounting by a factor of two.
Comments
Oh well. Guess my three year old niece is doing the shopping for the whole family for the foreseeable. She'll be thrilled.
We need to see a plan within the next week even if some of the relaxations care scheduled for June or July
We cannot be sure children don't pass it on.
Remember: it's not zero risk it's tolerable risk.
This easily clears the tolerable threshold.
https://twitter.com/c_drosten/status/1255555995671150597
How many post War (WW2) Labour Chancellor of the Exchequers have there been? For a bonus, name them.
I got the number wrong and correctly named 4.
People can potentially put up with this for a good while longer, but they need hope and a rational plan. If it drags on indefinitely then they'll despair (as we saw with one of our own regular posters on the previous thread,) conclude that they can't tolerate going on like this, and the lockdown will collapse in an uncontrolled fashion.
We're not a police state. The Government doesn't want to try to impose measures upon the population, and it doesn't have the power to do it either if sufficient numbers of us rebel. They need to carry at least the large majority of the people with them, and that necessitates the maintaining of confidence.
Except we know every day it is perfectly normal, and actually required, to test some people more than once. It is actually a good thing if they are getting the people tested multiple times very quickly.
8 in total.
Yes of course.
Opening Spoons in 4-5 weeks seems bonkers idea.
A lot of gyms and pubs have already had it. Big pub chains like Wetherspoons and the tied houses of large breweries might be able to ride it out and come back in a year or two, but a lot of the boozers will inevitably go to the wall. I think with the gyms it depends whether or not they are purpose built and owned by chains, or rented. The former - along with local authority premises - will be back at the end of all of this. The latter will get wiped out.
Gyms could've been designed to propagate this virus: indoor spaces full of people huffing and puffing on closely-packed pieces of machinery. Logically they should be among the very last places that are allowed to reopen.
22 June is plausible albeit optimistic for UK
Only doing half the job is mad. Let's finish it properly.
I was told that in the initial period of lockdown pretty well everyone driving at night turned out to be a criminal. Police raids are going beautifully because everyone is at home.
He’s thoroughly enjoying himself, so far as I can see.
https://twitter.com/xerxesmoarefian/status/1255611240552038402?s=21
City centre Spoons with packed rooms. Nope.
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1255609015717036037?s=20
I read an article in the Sunday Times at the weekend about companies working on bringing in PPE from China. It wasn't running an agenda it was talking about the mechanics for those working in that business. One of those quoted said that demand for PPE is 20 times normal peak levels for seasonal flu and shipments from China are one fifth of what they used to be because China needs so much for itself. In that context the idea that the government can just turn this stuff up in a month or two is just stupid. Inevitably the gap will be filled but its going to take a bit of time still.
I'm not a believer that this virus was a deliberately released creation but I will say this. In the world of biological and chemical warfare there the concept of sub threshold weapons applies, i.e you can launch an attack and damage your opponents but not invite an equivalent damaging response. Its not overt, its not easily traced as a deliberate attack and it isn't direct but it cripples your opponents in some way. This virus would have made a very good sub threshold weapon. I suspect a few plague warriors are looking at this angle. Development of offensive bio weapon capacity for mass use still goes on there
Question for the all the amateur researchers, has anyone seen anything suggesting that severity of effects of this virus on people may be related to how quickly the body realises its there? I haven't seen anything but this virus is reportedly good at concealing itself to the body early on. It seems logical that an immune system that spots it early is going to result in less severity of impact than one that doesn't.
Where's Kim episode 5. At his retreat at Wonsan staying away from the plebs due to Coronavirus maybe? As it stands there is less suggestion that he is dead. Given his size, satellite pictures of the retreat might pick up the fat lad if went outside....
Looks like yet another blindly-derived model based on a curve fitting tool being applied with no (much-needed) judgment overlaid on top. Or sense checking.
As it is I've been forced to go out running to avoid turning back into a blob, and have discovered that I prefer it. Basically, if other people (and, more specifically, their cars) don't become a serious impediment when this is all over, then I might not bother to go back to the gym either.
Half the office space in central London will be surplus to requirements at the end of all of this - and so will many of the businesses that supported those who used to occupy it. Working from home should disperse a decent slice of London's economic activity out into the Home Counties (and, in the fullness of time, the remainder of the country.) It should do more for rebalancing than any number of Government initiatives.
I would have loved his Just Giving effort to break £30m tomorrow but looks just out of reach
£29,531,000 currently
“It’s gonna go, it’s gonna leave,” Trump said, without explaining his thinking. “It’s gonna be eradicated.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/29/coronavirus-us-economy-covid-19-donald-trump-live
It may well in the future turn people off from accepting invites.
The claims that a Fields medal winner and Dennis from Deepminds would have be bullied into a corner by Big Dom and forced to change their mind against their scientific beliefs doesn't hold much water with me.
Ok.
Many of my colleagues in their 20s went back to their parents' as soon as we went to homeworking. If they stayed there after lockdown, they could be able to afford house purchases years earlier than would otherwise be possible.
Anecdotally, most companies seem to be coping far better than they would've thought last year. However, it's unclear how resilient we are to long term culture effects, like how you manage a business where customer service is paramount, if you can't tell get all your employees together and drill that into them. Over time, you just end up with a collection of individuals, rather than a functioning and coherent team.
Also, we've effectively frozen our summer internship program, because we can't see how we can onboard and train a bunch of students who need a lot of individual attention, remotely. Recruitment of experienced hires is also frozen until the lockdown ends. And we're not really sure how we'd manage our new graduates come September, either. So I think jury still out until those problems are a bit closer to resolved - it works in the short run, but some of the longer term stuff is still untested.
0-14 years - 2
15-44 years - 227
45-64 years - 2,193
65-74 years - 3,294
75-84 years - 6,497
85+ years - 6,899
87% of all fatalities were therefore amongst patients aged 65 or over, which seems broadly comparable with recent statistics I accessed for Italy (broken down into slightly different age cohorts, which showed that 96% of deaths there were amongst the over-60s.)
The figure for the under 15s is 0.01%.
The police have a new plane and it has taken to flying around in circles at about midnight, no doubt monitoring this traffic.
(I do use them a little, I hasten to add, but the lockdown buddy is the main user)
Inbetween will be those that have people working part-time in the office and part-time at home, and those that have employees working most of the time at home but maintain meeting rooms for occasional get-togethers. One would suspect that those two groups of businesses will be the most numerous going forward.