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SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited April 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Trump’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic has become the central WH2020 issue

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  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    1st
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    Honestly, as someone with a lot of close friends and family in the business my answer would be yes. But they've all taken the oath and the government knows they will never go on strike. Any other industry would have by now over work conditions. The government has been absolutely abject and Hancock needs to fall over this.
  • Lock him up.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    dr_spyn said:


    Unusual correction.

    Credit where it's due though, it's on the front page. If that was the Mail it'd be on page 46 in a font so small you'd need an electron microscope to read it.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    Honestly, as someone with a lot of close friends and family in the business my answer would be yes. But they've all taken the oath and the government knows they will never go on strike. Any other industry would have by now over work conditions. The government has been absolutely abject and Hancock needs to fall over this.
    Posts like this remind me of the 'Imagine WW2 with Twitter' thought.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Jonathan said:

    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.

    Unfortunately he is up against captain Alzheimer's so he'll win.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    Honestly, as someone with a lot of close friends and family in the business my answer would be yes. But they've all taken the oath and the government knows they will never go on strike. Any other industry would have by now over work conditions. The government has been absolutely abject and Hancock needs to fall over this.
    It is getting a bit mutinous in parts over the issue. Quite contentious at the moment is CPR in Covdi19 suspects. There is an issue over what is to be considered an AGP (therefore full PPE) and what is fine with gloves and mask by the resuscitation council.



  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    The gloves are off.

    Biden vs Trump.

    Total war.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.

    Unfortunately he is up against captain Alzheimer's so he'll win.
    Captain Alzheimer's is a better nickname than Dementia Kinnock I prefer to use.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Andrew said:

    dr_spyn said:


    Unusual correction.

    Credit where it's due though, it's on the front page. If that was the Mail it'd be on page 46 in a font so small you'd need an electron microscope to read it.
    if you read the correction, it is not that different to the original story!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898

    Lock him up.

    No, he needs to Liberate America.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,708
    The background music is far too loud on that Biden ad.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    Honestly, as someone with a lot of close friends and family in the business my answer would be yes. But they've all taken the oath and the government knows they will never go on strike. Any other industry would have by now over work conditions. The government has been absolutely abject and Hancock needs to fall over this.
    Posts like this remind me of the 'Imagine WW2 with Twitter' thought.
    We didn't send soldiers in with pocket knives in WW2. That's about to be the situation on the front line.

    Also, my political antennae are a lot better than yours. Trust me this is going to get very messy for the government, a change in regulations that causes the death of nurses is literally our worst nightmare as a party. It reinforces literally every single incorrect stereotype about our support for the NHS. It's a rerun of the dementia tax in 2017, it plays up what people already think about us but have no recent evidence for.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    Still 5th on cases, 4th in deaths in Europe but 3rd in population?

    Yes we need to test more but overall still not too bad
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Experiencing how some people comported themselves in Tesco yesterday helped me understand what may be the mentality of ardent Trump supporters.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.

    You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.

    Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.

    You supply more supporting evidence -

    Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added.
    The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion.
    They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future.
    Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe.
    Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.

    And a few more for the pot -

    Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates.
    The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model.
    They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy.
    They make quality things and look after the people who do the work.
    The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.

    One could go on. One has, really.
    Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
    But compared to our bunch of desperadoes ...
    We do ok. the Scottish banks were basket cases, as were some of the provincial mortgage banks.

    Lloyds and Barclays did ok as did Abbey and MCHC.
    Barclays were OK through the sheer dumb luck of being outbid by Fred for ABN.
    Wasn't the Barclays bid an all-share deal? I wasn't in the sector then but I've read about it since and I'm pretty sure it was all share so wouldn't have resulted in a wiping out of the bank's capital as the majority cash deal that RBS won with did.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Heard a Dr. on TV saying in this time of Coronavirus staying at home we should focus on inner peace. To achieve this we should always finish things we start and we all could use more calm in our lives. I looked through the house to find things i'd started and hadn't finished, so I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a bottle of Chardonnay, a bodle of Baileys, a butle of wum, tha mainder of Valiumun srciptuns, an a box a chocletz. Yu haf no idr how feckin fablus I feel rite now. Sned this to all who need inner piss. An telum u luvum. And two hash yer wands,
    stafe day avrybobby!!!²q
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:


    Still 5th on cases, 4th in deaths in Europe but 3rd in population?

    The number of positives is kinda meaningless. We have 109k vs Germany's 139k, but maybe 4x or 5x as many actually infected.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited April 2020

    Heard a Dr. on TV saying in this time of Coronavirus staying at home we should focus on inner peace. To achieve this we should always finish things we start and we all could use more calm in our lives. I looked through the house to find things i'd started and hadn't finished, so I finished off a bottle of Merlot, a bottle of Chardonnay, a bodle of Baileys, a butle of wum, tha mainder of Valiumun srciptuns, an a box a chocletz. Yu haf no idr how feckin fablus I feel rite now. Sned this to all who need inner piss. An telum u luvum. And two hash yer wands,
    stafe day avrybobby!!!²q

    five stars, but I fear you were in inner pieces.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    edited April 2020
    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    @squareroot2 is floating well above it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    HYUFD said:
    Strong evidence that polling is utterly useless.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.

    Unfortunately he is up against captain Alzheimer's so he'll win.
    He's toast. America is not irredeemably corrupted.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.

    You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.

    Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.

    You supply more supporting evidence -

    Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added.
    The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion.
    They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future.
    Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe.
    Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.

    And a few more for the pot -

    Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates.
    The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model.
    They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy.
    They make quality things and look after the people who do the work.
    The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.

    One could go on. One has, really.
    Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
    But compared to our bunch of desperadoes ...
    We do ok. the Scottish banks were basket cases, as were some of the provincial mortgage banks.

    Lloyds and Barclays did ok as did Abbey and MCHC.
    Barclays were OK through the sheer dumb luck of being outbid by Fred for ABN.
    Wasn't the Barclays bid an all-share deal? I wasn't in the sector then but I've read about it since and I'm pretty sure it was all share so wouldn't have resulted in a wiping out of the bank's capital as the majority cash deal that RBS won with did.
    It was all share, I think, yes. But ABN was poison to whoever swallowed it. You should have been paid not be paying. Bob Diamond too. Enormous rep, he had.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    The RCN has issued guidance on how to escalate lack of PPE, including refusing to treat.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.rcn.org.uk/-/media/royal-college-of-nursing/documents/publications/2020/april/009-231.pdf?la=en&ved=2ahUKEwjFv4rcrPDoAhUBYcAKHTghDygQFjADegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1scJmk3enk6JdVQnHQfnhh&cshid=1587157144465
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.

    You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.

    Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.

    You supply more supporting evidence -

    Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added.
    The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion.
    They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future.
    Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe.
    Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.

    And a few more for the pot -

    Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates.
    The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model.
    They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy.
    They make quality things and look after the people who do the work.
    The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.

    One could go on. One has, really.
    Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
    But compared to our bunch of desperadoes ...
    We do ok. the Scottish banks were basket cases, as were some of the provincial mortgage banks.

    Lloyds and Barclays did ok as did Abbey and MCHC.
    Barclays were OK through the sheer dumb luck of being outbid by Fred for ABN.
    Wasn't the Barclays bid an all-share deal? I wasn't in the sector then but I've read about it since and I'm pretty sure it was all share so wouldn't have resulted in a wiping out of the bank's capital as the majority cash deal that RBS won with did.
    Yes, but ABN owned a business in Stanford, Conneticut (whose name escapes me) which owned ridiculous quantites of mortgage backed securities.

    A lot of RBS's losses came from US residential mortgages via ABN, not British.
  • davidcdavidc Posts: 13
    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Not sure about Germany, but in Switzerland if you want to go directly to University you have to be in Gymnasien (ok, you can do night school to get the Matura post 18), if you are in the other school (realschule?) you are on the path to an apprenitiship at about the age of 14, so everyone has a clear path - I think this probably helps the teachers overall, as they actually have a clear goal for what they are supposed to be achieving with the children they are teaching.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:



    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.

    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    Fair comment - but in this particular case we’re talking about something which can be (and will be fairly soon) produced domestically without setting up completely new production lines. It could, arguably, have ben done sooner.

    Similarly, testing.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    davidc said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Not sure about Germany, but in Switzerland if you want to go directly to University you have to be in Gymnasien (ok, you can do night school to get the Matura post 18), if you are in the other school (realschule?) you are on the path to an apprenitiship at about the age of 14, so everyone has a clear path - I think this probably helps the teachers overall, as they actually have a clear goal for what they are supposed to be achieving with the children they are teaching.
    14 is a much more sensible time to seperate people than 11, because people do an awful lot of growing at changing as they go through puberty.

    Plus at 11, the difference in age between a September and an August baby is massively greater. (The stats for the 11 plus were staggering - you were three or four times as likely to pass if you were a September baby than an August one.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited April 2020
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Yes and now we have no grammar schools for the top 10 to 20% and slightly fewer state educated pupils in the top professions than was the case 50 years ago and most of our PMs go to private schools unlike Thatcher, Wilson, Heath etc while we still effectively have secondary moderns in the form of inadequate and requires improvement rated comprehensives and academies.

    If the top state schools are good enough middle class parents decide not to spend on school fees that can only be a good thing.

    Personally I would not bring back grammars across the board but I would at least allow parents to ballot on reintroducing grammars in their area just as they can now ballot to close them
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
    You are being hysterical.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120
    FPT

    I really don't understand why such a frenzy is now being whipped up by the media other than their desperation to try & find a sensational story & if not to fabricate one..

    I spent my entire career working for the US multinational that invented & patented the SMS (Spunbond Meltdown Spunbond) fabric that is now globally used for surgical gowns.There are other workable options.

    For example industrial coveralls (boiler suits)which again due the barrier properties of SMS are widely used for protection purposes in a variety of industries. The main difference is the colour of the fabric, blue for surgical gowns & white, grey for coveralls.
    I alerted my MP to this option a couple of weeks ago as there must be literally hundreds of thousands of coveralls sitting in industrial companies warehouses & at their distributors.

    The UK market is under developed in terms of single use surgical gowns (currently used as PPE gowns). With reusable linen gown still being widely used in Operating Theatres throughout the UK, they should be readily available for use with a plastic apron for additional protection.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Even when they were commonplace, the distribution of grammar schools was pretty arbitrary; the 11+ wasn't so much disinterestedly determining the right pathway for a child as allocating a scarce resource (academic secondary education by mostly graduate teachers) in as fair a way as possible. Whatever he got wrong, Gove was right to push for a broadly academic education to 16 for the vast majority. Most vocations can wait until then.

    It's curious how a certain kind of Tory is so keen on state rationing in this context.
  • Couldn't organise a pregnancy on a council estate.

    https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1251253970762436609
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Charles said:

    kinabalu said:

    Mr. kinabalu, their financial sector is inferior, their handling of the migrant crisis was incredibly stupid, and they increased energy costs massively by Merkel's ridiculous reaction to the Fukushima[sp] meltdown and banning of nuclear power in a country not necessarily renowned for earthquakes and tsunamis.

    You can point at any country and find good and bad aspects.

    Still, those arguing Germany's magnificent will have fun making the case for banning the niqab and completely changing the way the NHS works.

    You supply more supporting evidence -

    Their financial sector is VASTLY more fit for purpose and value added.
    The welcoming of the refugees was an act of great vision and compassion.
    They got ahead of the curve on nuclear. It's not the future.
    Banning full face covering is a great example of tolerance without cultural cringe.
    Their healthcare system knocks the NHS into a cocked one.

    And a few more for the pot -

    Their education system is tons better. And no silly fetish for privates.
    The way that top level football is run. Exemplary c.f. our rich man's toy model.
    They devolve power so much better. They are a true democracy.
    They make quality things and look after the people who do the work.
    The approach to housing over there. So much more rational than ours.

    One could go on. One has, really.
    Deuba...Coba...DKW....WestLB....HVB.... sorry what were you saying about their financial sector...? Did I forget IKB? Or BerlinLB?
    But compared to our bunch of desperadoes ...
    We do ok. the Scottish banks were basket cases, as were some of the provincial mortgage banks.

    Lloyds and Barclays did ok as did Abbey and MCHC.
    Barclays were OK through the sheer dumb luck of being outbid by Fred for ABN.
    Wasn't the Barclays bid an all-share deal? I wasn't in the sector then but I've read about it since and I'm pretty sure it was all share so wouldn't have resulted in a wiping out of the bank's capital as the majority cash deal that RBS won with did.
    Yes, but ABN owned a business in Stanford, Conneticut (whose name escapes me) which owned ridiculous quantites of mortgage backed securities.

    A lot of RBS's losses came from US residential mortgages via ABN, not British.
    I thought it was the wholesale bank that had all of the dodgy mortgage backed securities. It's been a while since I read about it though. But yes, it was a disaster deal for more than one reason. Cash paid for what was worse than worthless. Deal of the century for ABN shareholders though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Yes and now we have no grammar schools for the top 10 to 20% and slightly fewer state educated pupils in the top professions than was the case 50 years ago and most of our PMs go to private schools unlike Thatcher, Wilson, Heath etc while we still effectively have secondary moderns in the form of inadequate and requires improvement rated comprehensives and academies.

    If the top state schools are good enough middle class parents decide not to spend on school fees that can only be a good thing.

    Personally I would not bring back grammars across the board but I would at least allow parents to ballot on reintroducing grammars in their area just as they can now ballot to close them
    You are again focusing on the top 10%.

    The British educational system doesn't fail people in the top 10% educationally. Now, maybe they could do a better job (as I'm sure everywhere could). Who it fails is the next 90%.

    Grammar schools were not abolished because grammar schools failed. They were abolished because secondary moderns failed.

    Parents whose kids ended up at secondary moderns were angry. And there will be 3-4x as many parents of kids who failed the 11+ as parents of kids who passed.

    In Germany, the vocational track (which sensibly starts a little later) produces people with skills that make them highly employable. If you want to bring back selection, focus your efforts on the non-grammar schools, because that is where the vast majority of kids go, and it is where we failed spectacularly last time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
    You are being hysterical.
    Not really, we turned a shortage of ICU beds and ventilators into a success story in a similar amount of time or less. Where was the strategy on PPE (and testing)? Everywhere Hancock has been involved has been a disaster.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    edited April 2020
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have all the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited April 2020
    @rcs1000 - you talk about the top 10% of students, is the issue not who the top 10% are and how good they are in absolute? By definition there will be a top 10% whatever the system.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    The answer to your question is to stop parents reading to their kids. That's why it doesn't work. Social advantage, as you describe it, is just code for parents who give a shit about their kids. In wealthy families that means private school, in not so wealthy ones it means help with homework, being read to, help with reading and simple maths and general engagement. You can't stop the latter but it is an inherent advantage for a huge number of children from not very well of backgrounds.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
    You are being hysterical.
    Not really, we turned a shortage of ICU beds and ventilators into a success story in a similar amount of time or less. Where was the strategy on PPE (and testing)? Everywhere Hancock has been involved has been a disaster.
    I hope it's not that Nightingales (definite success) and ventilators (good progress) are big shiny glamourous things and that PPE isn't.

    I really hope it isn't that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Yes and now we have no grammar schools for the top 10 to 20% and slightly fewer state educated pupils in the top professions than was the case 50 years ago and most of our PMs go to private schools unlike Thatcher, Wilson, Heath etc while we still effectively have secondary moderns in the form of inadequate and requires improvement rated comprehensives and academies.

    If the top state schools are good enough middle class parents decide not to spend on school fees that can only be a good thing.

    Personally I would not bring back grammars across the board but I would at least allow parents to ballot on reintroducing grammars in their area just as they can now ballot to close them
    You are again focusing on the top 10%.

    The British educational system doesn't fail people in the top 10% educationally. Now, maybe they could do a better job (as I'm sure everywhere could). Who it fails is the next 90%.

    Grammar schools were not abolished because grammar schools failed. They were abolished because secondary moderns failed.

    Parents whose kids ended up at secondary moderns were angry. And there will be 3-4x as many parents of kids who failed the 11+ as parents of kids who passed.

    In Germany, the vocational track (which sensibly starts a little later) produces people with skills that make them highly employable. If you want to bring back selection, focus your efforts on the non-grammar schools, because that is where the vast majority of kids go, and it is where we failed spectacularly last time.
    What is wrong with focusing on the top 10%? That is where most of the lawyers, doctors, business leaders and top politicians and civil servants will come from and we want to make entry into those jobs as meritocratic as possible with top state schools to challenge top private schools.

    Secondary moderns were also never really abolished, they still exist in failing state schools across the country which still fail to even get more than half their pupils at least to C grade GCSEs.

    I do agree we could learn from Germany in terms of more vocational schools and expanding apprenticeships, top apprentices earn more than most graduates bar those attending Russell Group universities
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
    You are being hysterical.
    Not really, we turned a shortage of ICU beds and ventilators into a success story in a similar amount of time or less. Where was the strategy on PPE (and testing)? Everywhere Hancock has been involved has been a disaster.
    I hope it's not that Nightingales (definite success) and ventilators (good progress) are big shiny glamourous things and that PPE isn't.

    I really hope it isn't that.
    How many lives do the Nightingales and ventilators save? How many lives does the lack of PPE cost?

    That equation might have influenced priorities, though I'd have thought it really ought not to have been an either/or.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    FPT

    I really don't understand why such a frenzy is now being whipped up by the media other than their desperation to try & find a sensational story & if not to fabricate one..

    I spent my entire career working for the US multinational that invented & patented the SMS (Spunbond Meltdown Spunbond) fabric that is now globally used for surgical gowns.There are other workable options.

    For example industrial coveralls (boiler suits)which again due the barrier properties of SMS are widely used for protection purposes in a variety of industries. The main difference is the colour of the fabric, blue for surgical gowns & white, grey for coveralls.
    I alerted my MP to this option a couple of weeks ago as there must be literally hundreds of thousands of coveralls sitting in industrial companies warehouses & at their distributors.

    The UK market is under developed in terms of single use surgical gowns (currently used as PPE gowns). With reusable linen gown still being widely used in Operating Theatres throughout the UK, they should be readily available for use with a plastic apron for additional protection.

    Are you talking about something like Tyvek coveralls? We get through a steady stream of those in the plant where I work for a variety of mucky tasks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have all the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    Since the introduction of pupil premium, that’s not entirely true - and grammar schools are generally not better funded than the rest of the state sector (though the Kent system, which contains most of the UK’s grammars is pretty awful).

    And one of the biggest educational differentiators is preschool parental attention and engagement.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tlg86 said:

    @rcs1000 - you talk about the top 10% of students, is the issue not who the top 10% are and how good they are in absolute? By definition there will be a top 10% whatever the system.

    Works the same for poverty stats
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120
    edited April 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?

    There seems to be a story for almost every country.

    The Netherlands receiving faulty P2 respirators from China, Spain & Finland receiving sub standard surgical masks which did not comply with European standards, Germany having to re-sterilise face masks & getting ripped off by a bogus manufacturer in Kenya!

    As reported in L'Express, France commandeering Face mask orders for Italy & Spain produced by the Swedish manufacturer Molnlycke in France which took the intervention of the Swedish government to release the orders.

    There is simply not the global capacity to cope with this level of demand.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    FPT

    I really don't understand why such a frenzy is now being whipped up by the media other than their desperation to try & find a sensational story & if not to fabricate one..

    I spent my entire career working for the US multinational that invented & patented the SMS (Spunbond Meltdown Spunbond) fabric that is now globally used for surgical gowns.There are other workable options.

    For example industrial coveralls (boiler suits)which again due the barrier properties of SMS are widely used for protection purposes in a variety of industries. The main difference is the colour of the fabric, blue for surgical gowns & white, grey for coveralls.
    I alerted my MP to this option a couple of weeks ago as there must be literally hundreds of thousands of coveralls sitting in industrial companies warehouses & at their distributors.

    The UK market is under developed in terms of single use surgical gowns (currently used as PPE gowns). With reusable linen gown still being widely used in Operating Theatres throughout the UK, they should be readily available for use with a plastic apron for additional protection.

    We have a supply of industrial coveralls, but they are not very robust. Similarly we have used nearly all our disposable surgical gowns, and there are simply not enough reusable ones. This morning we had 600 long-sleeved gowns, so not likely to last the weekend unless resupply comes.

    It is not just a media fuss, it is a real concern to the front line, even here in Leicester where we have half the average coronovirus rate of the country.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
    There are two ways for patients to leave hospital
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?
    We've had 8 weeks to get manufacturing in place. Why was there not a call to industry made in early Feb to get manufacturing lined up?
    You are being hysterical.
    Not really, we turned a shortage of ICU beds and ventilators into a success story in a similar amount of time or less. Where was the strategy on PPE (and testing)? Everywhere Hancock has been involved has been a disaster.
    I hope it's not that Nightingales (definite success) and ventilators (good progress) are big shiny glamourous things and that PPE isn't.

    I really hope it isn't that.
    How many lives do the Nightingales and ventilators save? How many lives does the lack of PPE cost?

    That equation might have influenced priorities, though I'd have thought it really ought not to have been an either/or.
    As you say, it's not either/or. The government has enough bandwidth to do all of these things. Manufacturing of PPE doesn't have any crossover with manufacturing of ventilators or building temporary hospitals.

    The cabinet office was in charge of the ventilator challenge and the hospitals. Gove delivered both projects. Hancock has been in charge of PPE and testing, both have been a disaster. Hancock isn't up to the task.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    Does dipping single use PPE in a bowl of hot broth make it suitable for reuse?

    Night all. Stay safe.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
    Indeed, the only candidates to have beaten an incumbent president since WW2 are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and Biden is no Reagan or Bill Clinton and whatever else has happened to the Trump administration it has not yet had a Watergate which led to Carter's election
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Since grammar schools were abolished the percentage of top jobs going to the wealthiest (who tend to go to private schools) has increased. Whether that's just a random correlation is another question of course.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    alterego said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
    There are two ways for patients to leave hospital
    Indeed. I chose my words with care
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    A source had told the Guardian: “The new guidance will say ‘this is what you do if you don’t have any gowns’. Wear an apron instead – that will be the new policy for the foreseeable future, though the medical organisations will go mad about that.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/17/nhs-staff-to-be-asked-to-treat-coronavirus-patients-without-gowns?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Yeah the government's popularity is going to take a hit.

    This is universal credit all over again. You think the government will take a hit, but most people won't notice.
    No this is the dementia tax. It feels like that anyway.
    The policy where the government were going to "steal your house"?
    It's like sending soldiers into battle with a pocket knife. The first nurse to die because of the revised guidelines is going to be on the front page of The Sun and all over social media.
    There is a shortage of PPE.

    Would you rather they didn’t treat the patients?
    That’s rather beside the point, isn’t it ?
    As Max and Foxy acknowledge, most medics will risk there own safety when push comes to shove. The question is whether government inadequacies are continuing to force them to do so.

    On this general subject, it would be interesting to know how many countries which are struggling with the coronavirus are doing as badly or worse than the NHS with respect to PPE.

    Take this recent report - from Japan, which is richer and has a very much smaller outbreak to contend with than the UK:


    "The Japanese city of Osaka has issued an urgent plea for citizens to donate plastic raincoats to hospitals running short of protective gear for staff treating coronavirus patients, with some doctors resorting to wearing garbage bags.

    ...

    "Desperately trying to bridge the gap in supplies of protective gowns for its hospitals, a notice on the Osaka city web site said any color and style of raincoat was acceptable, including ponchos, as long as they were meant for adults.

    "Ichiro Matsui, Osaka’s mayor, told a gathering in the city on Tuesday that medical facilities were running dangerously short of all sorts of protective gear."

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-raincoats/lacking-protective-gear-japans-osaka-pleads-for-plastic-raincoats-idUSKCN21X0RO


    It doesn't help the workers in the hospitals who aren't getting the supplies they need in the quantities they need, of course - and after this is all over there will probably be considerable pressure to establish a domestic industry for making medical kit, and an agency to manage and stockpile the stuff - but perhaps the Government has a point when it protests that the whole world is after PPE at the moment and it's bound to be a bit of a challenge to get hold of enough of it?

    There seems to be a story for almost every country.

    The Netherlands receiving faulty P2 respirators from China, Spain & Finland receiving sub standard surgical masks which did not comply with European standards, Germany having to re-sterilise face masks & getting ripped off by a bogus manufacturer in Kenya!

    As reported in L'Express, France commandeering Face mask orders for Italy & Spain produced by the Swedish manufacturer Molnlycke in France which took the intervention of the Swedish government to release the orders.

    There is simply not the global capacity to cope with this level of demand.
    I agree that it is an international issue, but that doesn't butter any parsnips.

    By rationing PPE, we are rationing treatment, as PPE is a prerequisite. No PPE? no Intubation, no ventilation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    tlg86 said:

    @rcs1000 - you talk about the top 10% of students, is the issue not who the top 10% are and how good they are in absolute? By definition there will be a top 10% whatever the system.

    We know the answer to this, because there are surveys like PISA of education achievement.

    The top decile of British students do pretty well today, they are comfortably ahead of their French and US brethren, in-line with the Germans, and only slightly behind the top performers in Asia.

    I'll post some links.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    God. Toby Young is a total fucking fuckwit.

    Good night again.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
    That makes no sense. If the numbers of new hospitalisations were remaining constant or rising, yet the total numbers of patients with the illness in the hospitals were simultaneously falling, then that would imply that patients were being discharged at ever increasing speed with the passage of time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225

    God. Toby Young is a total fucking fuckwit.

    Good night again.

    Is this news ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    alterego said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
    There are two ways for patients to leave hospital
    In Leicester we discharge 2 alive for every death.

    Current figures (from memory) 132 deaths, 250 discharged, 200 confirmed inpatients, 40 suspects.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Andy_JS said:

    Since grammar schools were abolished the percentage of top jobs going to the wealthiest (who tend to go to private schools) has increased. Whether that's just a random correlation is another question of course.

    Indeed from 1945 to 1964 we had 5 PMs, 3 went to Eton, one to Harrow and one to Haileybury.

    From 1964 to 1997 we also had 5 PMs all of whom went to state schools, 4 of them grammar schools.

    From 1997 to now we have again had 5 PMs, 2 of whom went to Eton, one of whom went to Fettes and another of whom, May was at least partly privately educated.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
    Indeed, the only candidates to have beaten an incumbent president since WW2 are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and Biden is no Reagan or Bill Clinton and whatever else has happened to the Trump administration it has not yet had a Watergate which led to Carter's election
    And Trump is the first orange asshole to hold the office since WW2...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    The answer to your question is to stop parents reading to their kids. That's why it doesn't work. Social advantage, as you describe it, is just code for parents who give a shit about their kids. In wealthy families that means private school, in not so wealthy ones it means help with homework, being read to, help with reading and simple maths and general engagement. You can't stop the latter but it is an inherent advantage for a huge number of children from not very well of backgrounds.
    I'm talking about school funding per pupil.

    And by social advantage I don't mean parents who care about their kids. Most parents do that. I mean parental finances. Affluence.

    So, our setup, the most advantaged kids are educated in a gated community and have the most school resource devoted to them. The best facilities. The smallest class sizes. The most extra curricular opportunities. The links and networks into prestige higher education and so on and so forth.

    In other words we take the already advantaged and we advantage them a whole lot more.

    We should do the opposite. This is the essence of what I bang about. If you have egalitarian beliefs our education landscape - in particular the tolerance of the private schools - is an abomination.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    The answer to your question is to stop parents reading to their kids. That's why it doesn't work. Social advantage, as you describe it, is just code for parents who give a shit about their kids. In wealthy families that means private school, in not so wealthy ones it means help with homework, being read to, help with reading and simple maths and general engagement. You can't stop the latter but it is an inherent advantage for a huge number of children from not very well of backgrounds.
    I'm talking about school funding per pupil.

    And by social advantage I don't mean parents who care about their kids. Most parents do that. I mean parental finances. Affluence.

    So, our setup, the most advantaged kids are educated in a gated community and have the most school resource devoted to them. The best facilities. The smallest class sizes. The most extra curricular opportunities. The links and networks into prestige higher education and so on and so forth.

    In other words we take the already advantaged and we advantage them a whole lot more.

    We should do the opposite. This is the essence of what I bang about. If you have egalitarian beliefs our education landscape - in particular the tolerance of the private schools - is an abomination.
    Yes, scrap Marks and Spencer and Waitrose and Sainsburys too, send everyone to Lidl, Aldi or Asda to shop, cannnot have anybody buying an advantage can we!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
    Indeed, the only candidates to have beaten an incumbent president since WW2 are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and Biden is no Reagan or Bill Clinton and whatever else has happened to the Trump administration it has not yet had a Watergate which led to Carter's election
    I think past history of POTUS is irrelevant given a) Trump is uniquely divisive and b) the plague.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    The answer to your question is to stop parents reading to their kids. That's why it doesn't work. Social advantage, as you describe it, is just code for parents who give a shit about their kids. In wealthy families that means private school, in not so wealthy ones it means help with homework, being read to, help with reading and simple maths and general engagement. You can't stop the latter but it is an inherent advantage for a huge number of children from not very well of backgrounds.
    I'm talking about school funding per pupil.

    And by social advantage I don't mean parents who care about their kids. Most parents do that. I mean parental finances. Affluence.

    So, our setup, the most advantaged kids are educated in a gated community and have the most school resource devoted to them. The best facilities. The smallest class sizes. The most extra curricular opportunities. The links and networks into prestige higher education and so on and so forth.

    In other words we take the already advantaged and we advantage them a whole lot more.

    We should do the opposite. This is the essence of what I bang about. If you have egalitarian beliefs our education landscape - in particular the tolerance of the private schools - is an abomination.
    Are you drunk?
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120
    Foxy said:

    FPT

    I really don't understand why such a frenzy is now being whipped up by the media other than their desperation to try & find a sensational story & if not to fabricate one..

    I spent my entire career working for the US multinational that invented & patented the SMS (Spunbond Meltdown Spunbond) fabric that is now globally used for surgical gowns.There are other workable options.

    For example industrial coveralls (boiler suits)which again due the barrier properties of SMS are widely used for protection purposes in a variety of industries. The main difference is the colour of the fabric, blue for surgical gowns & white, grey for coveralls.
    I alerted my MP to this option a couple of weeks ago as there must be literally hundreds of thousands of coveralls sitting in industrial companies warehouses & at their distributors.

    The UK market is under developed in terms of single use surgical gowns (currently used as PPE gowns). With reusable linen gown still being widely used in Operating Theatres throughout the UK, they should be readily available for use with a plastic apron for additional protection.

    We have a supply of industrial coveralls, but they are not very robust. Similarly we have used nearly all our disposable surgical gowns, and there are simply not enough reusable ones. This morning we had 600 long-sleeved gowns, so not likely to last the weekend unless resupply comes.

    It is not just a media fuss, it is a real concern to the front line, even here in Leicester where we have half the average coronovirus rate of the country.
    Find it surprising that the industrial coveralls designed for the wear & tear of arduous industrial applications are not very robust.

    Also with the decrease in elective surgery that reusable gowns are not available, is it the turn around time at the laundries?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,226

    God. Toby Young is a total fucking fuckwit.

    Good night again.

    One almost wishes his focus would return to women's tits.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    Trump is dancing the boogaloo today
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
    Indeed, the only candidates to have beaten an incumbent president since WW2 are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and Biden is no Reagan or Bill Clinton and whatever else has happened to the Trump administration it has not yet had a Watergate which led to Carter's election
    I think past history of POTUS is irrelevant given a) Trump is uniquely divisive and b) the plague.
    Trump's current approval ratings are little different to Obama's or George W Bush's in the final year of their first term, above Carter and Bush Snr's but below Reagan and Clinton's
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Jonathan said:

    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.

    Have we talked about the strategy of stoking armed insurrection against Democratic governors in swing states? Add that to the difficulty of trying to do an election in a pandemic and... whoa...
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Foxy said:

    alterego said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Jonathan said:

    I tuned out for a few days, but looking at stats today the UK is not doing at all well. What is going wrong?

    We're in the plateau phase.
    And if R stays around 1, the plateau could last a long time.
    The decline in hospitalisations in London (with the Midlands also possibly past peak load) suggests that the overall rate of transmission in the community should have fallen below that level several weeks ago. It's simply the fact that deaths should be the last indicator to start falling, sadly.
    I never see data for the number of new hospitalizations, just the total in hospital. Is there a source for the former?
    I don't know myself, I'm just watching the total hospitalisations as presented in the Government daily briefing tracking downwards. The fall in Covid cases in London's hospitals has been both large enough and sustained enough to suggest that the capital is past peak, the Midlands might be going the same way, and no other region of the country appears to be getting significantly worse.

    Presumably the total numbers in hospital would not be falling if the total numbers of people infected in the community hadn't already started falling, and so long as the latter continues to reduce so should the former.
    If the numbers leaving hospital is increasing, since it takes several weeks for cases to be resolved, the number in hospital would fall even with a constant admission level.
    There are two ways for patients to leave hospital
    In Leicester we discharge 2 alive for every death.

    Current figures (from memory) 132 deaths, 250 discharged, 200 confirmed inpatients, 40 suspects.
    That doesn't sound many. How do figures break down ICU/ non ICU? Are we getting better at treating CV19 patients? There is a lot of water to go under the bridge and I think we have to be very careful making judgments on what are half baked data - forgive mixed metaphors.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    MaxPB said:


    As you say, it's not either/or. The government has enough bandwidth to do all of these things. Manufacturing of PPE doesn't have any crossover with manufacturing of ventilators or building temporary hospitals.

    I wonder how we can possibly churn them out fast enough though - read somewhere that China exported four billion (with a b) face masks in the last 6 weeks, similar numbers of other PPE, and despite that the world is still badly short.
  • johnoundlejohnoundle Posts: 120

    FPT

    I really don't understand why such a frenzy is now being whipped up by the media other than their desperation to try & find a sensational story & if not to fabricate one..

    I spent my entire career working for the US multinational that invented & patented the SMS (Spunbond Meltdown Spunbond) fabric that is now globally used for surgical gowns.There are other workable options.

    For example industrial coveralls (boiler suits)which again due the barrier properties of SMS are widely used for protection purposes in a variety of industries. The main difference is the colour of the fabric, blue for surgical gowns & white, grey for coveralls.
    I alerted my MP to this option a couple of weeks ago as there must be literally hundreds of thousands of coveralls sitting in industrial companies warehouses & at their distributors.

    The UK market is under developed in terms of single use surgical gowns (currently used as PPE gowns). With reusable linen gown still being widely used in Operating Theatres throughout the UK, they should be readily available for use with a plastic apron for additional protection.

    Are you talking about something like Tyvek coveralls? We get through a steady stream of those in the plant where I work for a variety of mucky tasks.
    Yes,Tyvek manufactured by Dupont was our major competitor in the industrial market.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    davidc said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Not sure about Germany, but in Switzerland if you want to go directly to University you have to be in Gymnasien (ok, you can do night school to get the Matura post 18), if you are in the other school (realschule?) you are on the path to an apprenitiship at about the age of 14, so everyone has a clear path - I think this probably helps the teachers overall, as they actually have a clear goal for what they are supposed to be achieving with the children they are teaching.
    14 is a much more sensible time to seperate people than 11, because people do an awful lot of growing at changing as they go through puberty.

    Plus at 11, the difference in age between a September and an August baby is massively greater. (The stats for the 11 plus were staggering - you were three or four times as likely to pass if you were a September baby than an August one.)
    Month of birth effect in British education is staggeringly and depressingly huge.

    Really makes me sad when I think about how badly it effects people's lives
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    dixiedean said:

    Trump is dancing the boogaloo today

    What's he done now?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413

    Jonathan said:

    Trump has to go. Surely. Somehow.

    Have we talked about the strategy of stoking armed insurrection against Democratic governors in swing states? Add that to the difficulty of trying to do an election in a pandemic and... whoa...
    No. But I reckon that may be the plan. As the rest has failed.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    There seems to be a story for almost every country.

    The Netherlands receiving faulty P2 respirators from China, Spain & Finland receiving sub standard surgical masks which did not comply with European standards, Germany having to re-sterilise face masks & getting ripped off by a bogus manufacturer in Kenya!

    As reported in L'Express, France commandeering Face mask orders for Italy & Spain produced by the Swedish manufacturer Molnlycke in France which took the intervention of the Swedish government to release the orders.

    There is simply not the global capacity to cope with this level of demand.

    I agree that it is an international issue, but that doesn't butter any parsnips.

    By rationing PPE, we are rationing treatment, as PPE is a prerequisite. No PPE? no Intubation, no ventilation.
    Absolutely true, but I believe that the issue under discussion was originally the culpability or otherwise of the Government for the lack of PPE, and that may not be an entirely clear-cut issue.

    If there is simply insufficient manufacturing capacity in the whole world to produce the amount of PPE needed for dealing with this pandemic, then it could alternatively be described as a collective failure of humanity. Whether you regard that as being the result of wilful negligence or an unfortunate lack of foresight, it is nonetheless something that is not limited to any one country or group of countries.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    HYUFD said:

    What is wrong with focusing on the top 10%? That is where most of the lawyers, doctors, business leaders and top politicians and civil servants will come from and we want to make entry into those jobs as meritocratic as possible with top state schools to challenge top private schools.

    We do. I agree 100%.

    Now, fifty years ago, more people at the top of industry and the civil service and the like came from state schools.

    So, more meritocratic, right?

    Well. Hopefully. But not necessarily. According to the Independent Schools Council, in the late 1960s, before the abolition of grammar schools there were around 148,000 students at private schools. That number rose dramatically as the grammar schools were abolished (with a large number of direct grant schools becoming genuinely indepent). Today something like 600,000 kids are in private schools.

    So, you've dramatically increased the percentage of kids in private schools.

    As grammar schools have been abolished, many of those who could afford selective education have typically taken their kids out of the state sector and put them in private schools.

    Are grammar schools, then, an opportunity for parents like me to save on school fees (whoopee!), or do they increase social mobility? If most of the kids who end up in grammar schools would have been privately educated anyway, then it's by no means clear that they do.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    nico67 said:

    So Trump is now trying to cause social unrest.

    One wonders what he might do if he loses the election . I doubt very much he’ll go quietly . Very dangerous times for the USA .

    I wouldn't vote for Trump but I expect him to win again.
    Indeed, the only candidates to have beaten an incumbent president since WW2 are Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton and Biden is no Reagan or Bill Clinton and whatever else has happened to the Trump administration it has not yet had a Watergate which led to Carter's election
    And Trump is the first orange asshole to hold the office since WW2...
    How come you're so familiar with his nether regions?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    davidc said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Not sure about Germany, but in Switzerland if you want to go directly to University you have to be in Gymnasien (ok, you can do night school to get the Matura post 18), if you are in the other school (realschule?) you are on the path to an apprenitiship at about the age of 14, so everyone has a clear path - I think this probably helps the teachers overall, as they actually have a clear goal for what they are supposed to be achieving with the children they are teaching.
    14 is a much more sensible time to seperate people than 11, because people do an awful lot of growing at changing as they go through puberty.

    Plus at 11, the difference in age between a September and an August baby is massively greater. (The stats for the 11 plus were staggering - you were three or four times as likely to pass if you were a September baby than an August one.)
    Month of birth effect in British education is staggeringly and depressingly huge.

    Really makes me sad when I think about how badly it effects people's lives
    There's no solution. You have to choose a cut-off somewhere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    HYUFD said:

    eristdoof said:

    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Abolish the Department for Education, close every state school in the country, and give every parent the money in school vouchers.

    The free market will sort it out, and we'll finally have a truly world class school education system.

    Every child will be educated brilliantly.

    Abolish the target of 50% of school kids going to university, remove university status from most of the former polys.

    Abolish fees for those that study degrees in the most important subjects, such as STEM, medicine, engineering, computing based degrees, history, and law degrees.

    I am quite happy to serve as Education Secretary.

    Happier than the rest of us, perhaps.

    A bit like Michael Gove.
    I'd make sure every child was educated. The best teachers would command salaries that would be at the top end of society.

    I realise I was lucky that my uni fees were paid for, I want to go back to that.
    TSE for EdSec 7 years ago.

    (So my extremely high pay under that system would also be reflected in my pension.)
    To my surprise, I'm with TSE here. Pay teachers much more. And thereby make it more competitive to get into.
    Some teachers - like my daughter's young, enthusiastic year 3 teacher - are worth much more. Some - like my daughter's occasionally adequate year 4 teacher - aren't. I can't see any way of getting more of the former and fewer od the latter without paying them more.
    While pay matters, I don't think it the decisive reason that so many teachers do not stick to the profession*. Other elements might well matter more, particularly a supportive culture of respect for teachers from parents and from the hierarchy of education and government. That is not so easy to address.

    * I am sure that we all agree that poor teachers who are not improving should move on, I suspect that the good ones are as likely to quit. That sort of reflective self doubt in a professional is both a key to being an inspiring teacher, but also to that crisis of faith.

    All the best doctors that I know came close to dropping out. Indeed one of my colleagues is quite a competent roofer, having done that for a year before his mates on the site persuaded him back into medicine.
    I have friends in the UK who are teachers, friends in the UK who gave up teaching, and friends in Germany who are teachers, including my girlfriend.

    All of the UK teachers I know who gave up, did so because of the crazy out of hours workload not because of the pay. Comparing the working conditions between the two countries I see two differences. Thie biggest difference is that homework is not marked by the teachers in Germany. Exams are marked by teachers, but not the standard homework.

    The other difference is the teachers in Germany are there to help the pupils learn as much as possible. They are not there to maximise the exam results. The difference might seem subtle to some outside of education, but the effect this has on job satisfaction is considerable. Once the job satisfaction gets wringed out of you that's when you leave the profession.
    Germany is still largely selective, with gymnasiums in most states the equivalent of our grammar schools
    For a start none of the teachers I know in Germany are in Gymnasien, but secondly what has this at all got to do with what I wrote?
    Good for you, that does not change my point at all.

    It is a big difference as Germany is full of academically selective state schools as we used to have 50 years ago
    I disagree with you.

    Fifty years ago we had a tier of usually great grammar school, and then a tier of pretty awful secondary moderns that offered little to no sensible vocational training. Secondary moderns were starved of money, and did a terrible job of producing the people the economy needed.

    The very fact that today the discussions are all about the grammar element demonstrates how f*cked up this is. We don't fail the top 10% of kids. They go to University and do very well. We fail the next 90%.

    If we want to return to selective education, I sincerely hope that the effort will be spent on making the schools for the 90% as good as possible, not on saving middle class parents from having to spend on school fees.
    Agreed.
    But I’d add that such a simple bifurcated structure (the technical schools barely got started) is way too rigid. As in politics, pluralism is a desirable thing.
    The way we have things arranged is that the most socially advantaged pupils have the most school resource invested in them. It ought to be the opposite.

    I don't pretend to have the answers but this to me is the heart of the matter.
    The answer to your question is to stop parents reading to their kids. That's why it doesn't work. Social advantage, as you describe it, is just code for parents who give a shit about their kids. In wealthy families that means private school, in not so wealthy ones it means help with homework, being read to, help with reading and simple maths and general engagement. You can't stop the latter but it is an inherent advantage for a huge number of children from not very well of backgrounds.
    I'm talking about school funding per pupil.

    And by social advantage I don't mean parents who care about their kids. Most parents do that. I mean parental finances. Affluence.

    So, our setup, the most advantaged kids are educated in a gated community and have the most school resource devoted to them. The best facilities. The smallest class sizes. The most extra curricular opportunities. The links and networks into prestige higher education and so on and so forth.

    In other words we take the already advantaged and we advantage them a whole lot more.

    We should do the opposite. This is the essence of what I bang about. If you have egalitarian beliefs our education landscape - in particular the tolerance of the private schools - is an abomination.
    Plus affluence and an Eton education does not automatically equal high iq and A grade GCSEs and A levels, see Prince Harry
This discussion has been closed.