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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Yet another Dem TV Debate and this time Bernie’s expected to b

SystemSystem Posts: 12,054
edited February 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Yet another Dem TV Debate and this time Bernie’s expected to be in the firing line

Ahead of Saturday’s South Carolina primary we have yet another TV debate between the main contenders. This takes place in Charleston and will start at 1am GMT lasting two hours.

Read the full story here


Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,342
    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,342
    Note Bloomberg is the only one completely toothless. Hmm....
  • I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.
  • FPT

    Sky paper reviewer on covid -19 says it is very exciting and repeats it

    People have died, thousands suffering, and real economic damage is possible

    And its 'exciting'. She needs to have more respect
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,023

    FPT

    Sky paper reviewer on covid -19 says it is very exciting and repeats it

    People have died, thousands suffering, and real economic damage is possible

    And its 'exciting'. She needs to have more respect

    Sounds like Independence Day!
  • I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    Unlike Boris you are not qualified to be President
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,342

    I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    And you will after South Carolina too. Why is he getting to play if he's not putting himself up for the vote?
  • FPT

    Sky paper reviewer on covid -19 says it is very exciting and repeats it

    People have died, thousands suffering, and real economic damage is possible

    And its 'exciting'. She needs to have more respect

    Well Toby Young won't allow you in his Free Speech Union.
  • I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    Unlike Boris you are not qualified to be President
    America's already had one foreign born Muslim President, they can have another one.
  • DavidL said:

    I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    And you will after South Carolina too. Why is he getting to play if he's not putting himself up for the vote?
    I'm great in debates, they should let me in.
  • DavidL said:

    I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    And you will after South Carolina too. Why is he getting to play if he's not putting himself up for the vote?
    Voters can write his name in iirc.

    And of course they will in their thousands.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,023
    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT - the Scottish Government appears to be running adverts on the London Underground for people to move to Scotland under the slogan “Scotland is Now”.

    It’s kind of weird the Scottish Government wants to attract mainly English immigrants to move into North Britain. Maybe Sturgeon secretly wants us to all move up there so we can vote down independence.

    I saw one of those adverts this morning. Perhaps the calculation is that London remainers would vote for independence to get back into the EU.
    Move to Scotland and have a life out of the rat race, you can afford a lovely house and a great life.
    It rains too much for my liking. The East Midlands would be my destination of choice should I decide I’ve had enough of Surrey.
  • Off-topic (in as far as this can be off-topic ever) but interesting article on the potential impact of coronavirus here

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/coronavirus-covid-19-global-pandemic-closed-borders-market-crash/
  • Foreign office just issued travel advice warning against all but essential travel to Northern Italy
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773

    Off-topic (in as far as this can be off-topic ever) but interesting article on the potential impact of coronavirus here

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/coronavirus-covid-19-global-pandemic-closed-borders-market-crash/

    Pass SeanT the Kleenex......
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773
    DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    Trouble is, the field all think the rest of the field are shite, so why should they stand down?

    Leaving you with an all-shite field.
  • FPT

    Sky paper reviewer on covid -19 says it is very exciting and repeats it

    People have died, thousands suffering, and real economic damage is possible

    And its 'exciting'. She needs to have more respect

    Indeed. The fatality rate is about 2% in the most heavily infected areas in China, with another 5% in serious or critical cases.

    The UK has only 4048 adult critical care beds, of which there were exactly 1000 available at the last reporting day (near the end of December 2019) - fewer than a quarter.

    As soon as intensive care facilities become full, you can expect people who would have recovered from the virus, to die. You can also expect other people who currently form part of the 3000 now in intensive care but who wouldn't be able to get a bed because of all the Covid-19 cases, to die as well.

    This is not exciting. This is f*cking scary.
  • DavidL said:

    I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    And you will after South Carolina too. Why is he getting to play if he's not putting himself up for the vote?
    People can vote in many other states today beyond South Carolina - 2m+ have done so in California alone (albeit that 800k+ are in the GOP primaries). They can't, as it happens, use early voting in S Carolina.

    And Super Tuesday is only a week away.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,409
    edited February 2020
    Is Bernie expected to be in trouble because of the essay he wrote in 1972?
  • Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    It's time to limit debates to people with ten or more delegates.

    Fuck it. Let's go for twenty, and then at least it's a simple head-to-head.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    That's gonna go badly for Bloomberg.

    Whatever Mike has in Sanders, Sanders has ten times more on Bloomberg.
  • rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    It's time to limit debates to people with ten or more delegates.

    Fuck it. Let's go for twenty, and then at least it's a simple head-to-head.
    Suits me. Go Buttigieg.
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Andy_JS said:

    Is Bernie expected to be in trouble because of the essay he wrote in 1972?

    If that is the worst they have in Sanders, then they might as well hand the nomination to him now. Pathetic.
  • nunu2 said:

    That's gonna go badly for Bloomberg.

    Whatever Mike has in Sanders, Sanders has ten times more on Bloomberg.
    Let's hope they knock each other out.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    nunu2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Bernie expected to be in trouble because of the essay he wrote in 1972?

    If that is the worst they have in Sanders, then they might as well hand the nomination to him now. Pathetic.
    So long as the Bloomberg/Biden/Buttigieg/Baemy are all competing for the same 55% of the vote, it will be easy sailing for Bernie.

    You know, they should make Warren the nominee as she's the only (vaguely serious) candidate who can't be called by a name beginnig with 'b'.
  • DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    It's quite difficult doing comparisons with previous races because sometimes no-hope candidates stayed in well after they should have but I can't find any precedent for seven serious candidates in the race after 40% of the delegates have been determined.

    I don't think it should have whittled down to just two candidates but the attrition rate so far has been exceptionally low, despite an exceptionally wide field. This close to Super Tuesday, for an open nomination, I think you'd normally be looking at about 3-4 serious candidates.
  • Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    Has there ever been an outbreak of such a scale of anything? That’s probably about 1/2 a billion deaths when it leaks into areas with little to no healthcare.
  • eadric said:

    Off-topic (in as far as this can be off-topic ever) but interesting article on the potential impact of coronavirus here

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/coronavirus-covid-19-global-pandemic-closed-borders-market-crash/

    Pass SeanT the Kleenex......
    If that’s aimed at me, as against SeanT, you can fucking do one.

    I think I am allowed one big fat fuck you post. I started my Coronavirus fear fest, on here, about two weeks ago. I said from the start this was going to be big and it was going to be scary. I was roundly mocked, ridiculed, Pooh-poohed, called a big poncey bedwetter, and much else.

    I responded by calmly and correctly pointing out that you autistic pb twats were exhibiting Normalcy Bias, indeed a classic case of it.

    For that I was roundly mocked, abused, belittled, blah blah blah

    Which is all fair enough. That’s PB. You dish it out, you take it.

    But now it’s my turn to dish it out to you trainspotters.

    I was right. You were all wrong. Very, very wrong.

    https://twitter.com/covid_19news/status/1232441172171218946?s=21
    Maybe because there are plenty of Iranian workers in Bahrain?
  • nunu2nunu2 Posts: 1,453
    Wow.

    A long way to go but Trump vs. Bernie is not the foregone conclusion most on here think it is.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1232407079379505153
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,409
    One of the things that slightly concerns me about coronavirus is the way that a lot of people/politicians who could have been relied upon until very recently to caution against any sort of panic that might make matters worse are not necessarily taking that approach today. A possible reason for this is that they themselves have been unsettled by recent political events such as Brexit, Trump, Putin, Syria, etc. I hope I'm wrong about this though.
  • Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
  • Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    Has there ever been an outbreak of such a scale of anything? That’s probably about 1/2 a billion deaths when it leaks into areas with little to no healthcare.
    The last really big pandemic was the Spanish Flu one about 100 years ago. Sources vary but a central figure suggests that it killed about 40-50m people (or about 2-2.5% of the then global population).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    nunu2 said:

    Wow.

    A long way to go but Trump vs. Bernie is not the foregone conclusion most on here think it is.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1232407079379505153

    That's because most Americans don't know anything about Bernie Sanders actual policies.

    So, for example, decriminalising those who attempt to cross the border is not... ummm... universally popular.

    Likewise, taking away people's existing healthcare plans polls really poorly.

    And that wealth tax... while I personally am a fan of wealth taxes (albeit charged at a very low level), it's not... ahhh... much more popular than the Coronavirus.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,776
    edited February 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    One of the things that slightly concerns me about coronavirus is the way that a lot of people/politicians who could have been relied upon until very recently to caution against any sort of panic that might make matters worse are not necessarily taking that approach today. A possible reason for this is that they themselves have been unsettled by recent political events such as Brexit, Trump, Putin, Syria, etc. I hope I'm wrong about this though.

    Not panic, but severe closedowns and quarantine are simply the most effective control methods. They also spread the duration of the pandemic to use scarce health resources better.




    To take some examples from the Pandemic Flu plan for Leics (pop 1050000, so multiply by 70 or so for UK figures) with an infection rate of 50% and 2.5% fatality rate there would be 12,500 excess deaths in a 3 month pandemic, reduce that infection rate to 25% and the excess deaths are 6,250. Roughly this projects to 350000 nationally.

    If the mortality is half that, then we are looking at 175000 lives saved. It is a No brainer. Today in Italy there were an increase of 40% of cases, but the measures have only been in place a couple of days, so these are people infected before the measures were put in place.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251

    Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
    On the positive side, house prices are likely to come down.
  • nunu2 said:

    Wow.

    A long way to go but Trump vs. Bernie is not the foregone conclusion most on here think it is.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1232407079379505153

    It's about as undecided as Corbyn v Boris.
  • eadric said:

    Off-topic (in as far as this can be off-topic ever) but interesting article on the potential impact of coronavirus here

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/24/coronavirus-covid-19-global-pandemic-closed-borders-market-crash/

    Pass SeanT the Kleenex......
    If that’s aimed at me, as against SeanT, you can fucking do one.

    I think I am allowed one big fat fuck you post. I started my Coronavirus fear fest, on here, about two weeks ago. I said from the start this was going to be big and it was going to be scary. I was roundly mocked, ridiculed, Pooh-poohed, called a big poncey bedwetter, and much else.

    I responded by calmly and correctly pointing out that you autistic pb twats were exhibiting Normalcy Bias, indeed a classic case of it.

    For that I was roundly mocked, abused, belittled, blah blah blah

    Which is all fair enough. That’s PB. You dish it out, you take it.

    But now it’s my turn to dish it out to you trainspotters.

    I was right. You were all wrong. Very, very wrong.

    https://twitter.com/covid_19news/status/1232441172171218946?s=21
    No. You're still overreacting.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,519
    eadric said:

    Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
    Yes, it is apocalyptic, even if Coronavirus only has a CFR slightly more than normal flu. ~0.3%

    There will be many millions who are critically ill who will need care. They will collapse health systems so the CFR will rocket.

    But there are still grounds for optimism. Some of these bugs melt away with summer. Which is coming. It is nearly March.

    Pray to God for warmth and light.


    Pussy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 47,776
    eadric said:

    Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
    Yes, it is apocalyptic, even if Coronavirus only has a CFR slightly more than normal flu. ~0.3%

    There will be many millions who are critically ill who will need care. They will collapse health systems so the CFR will rocket.

    But there are still grounds for optimism. Some of these bugs melt away with summer. Which is coming. It is nearly March.

    Pray to God for warmth and light.


    On the subject of prayer, America is bonkers. Never have I heard such blasphemy.

    https://twitter.com/mcspocky/status/1232097129365221377?s=19
  • On tonight's debate: Yes, Bloomberg and the other candidates will be piling as much ordure on Sanders as they can, but I don't think it will make much difference. Sanders won't be put off-balance by this, as Bloomberg was in the previous debate; he's good at coming up with disingenuous but impressive-sounding rebuttals of criticism, and he's had plenty of practice. I expect him to bat away the attacks without much difficulty.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,342

    DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    It's quite difficult doing comparisons with previous races because sometimes no-hope candidates stayed in well after they should have but I can't find any precedent for seven serious candidates in the race after 40% of the delegates have been determined.

    I don't think it should have whittled down to just two candidates but the attrition rate so far has been exceptionally low, despite an exceptionally wide field. This close to Super Tuesday, for an open nomination, I think you'd normally be looking at about 3-4 serious candidates.
    Yes that would be manageable. At the moment Bernie is looking like getting an unassailable lead on a plurality of not much more than 30%. I think that the Democrats will come to regret that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    This really should be close to a head to head by now and a binary choice. That field is ridiculous.

    It's quite difficult doing comparisons with previous races because sometimes no-hope candidates stayed in well after they should have but I can't find any precedent for seven serious candidates in the race after 40% of the delegates have been determined.

    I don't think it should have whittled down to just two candidates but the attrition rate so far has been exceptionally low, despite an exceptionally wide field. This close to Super Tuesday, for an open nomination, I think you'd normally be looking at about 3-4 serious candidates.
    Yes that would be manageable. At the moment Bernie is looking like getting an unassailable lead on a plurality of not much more than 30%. I think that the Democrats will come to regret that.
    That's right.

    If you have four candidates around the 10-15% mark, and one candidate on 30% (which is what's happening right now), then the candidate on 30% will get 60% of the delegates.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,469
    eadric said:

    Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
    Yes, it is apocalyptic, even if Coronavirus only has a CFR slightly more than normal flu. ~0.3%

    There will be many millions who are critically ill who will need care. They will collapse health systems so the CFR will rocket.

    But there are still grounds for optimism. Some of these bugs melt away with summer. Which is coming. It is nearly March.

    Pray to God for warmth and light.
    This January and February is set to be only the fifth since 1659 where the Central England Temperature was an average of 6C or above in both months.

    That is to say that we've had an exceptionally warm start to the year, and it's not impossible that March is colder, rather than warmer.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    I'd like to remind you all that I have as many pledged delegates as Michael Bloomberg.

    Unlike Boris you are not qualified to be President
    Boris has never been qualified to be President as he’s never had residence in the US for fourteen whole years. He also renounced his US citizenship some years back, and in any case when he first entered the Cabinet he would have been deemed by the State Department to have lost it by serving in a foreign government.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2020
    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,534
    Europe and global markets in general are now exhibiting signs of the Panic phase of covid-19, that most of Asia was in a month ago. And that our good friend Eadric was in 2 weeks ago.

    The good news is this panic phase subsides when prudent management stops new cases from going exponential, which is the case now in China, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam. The bad news is that economic activity remains very low.

    I hope that European politicians and officials spent the last few days talking to their Singaporean counterparts. It is remarkable how thoroughly almost every case here has now been traced to its infection point, using a combination of cell phone gps, cctv and most recently biological analysis - the big Church cluster here has now finally been successfully traced to a worker at the church who had attended a Chinese New Year dinner attended by two Wuhan visitors.

    The doom and gloom and resignation to tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths in the UK is understandable but unnecessary. A digital surveillance state like the UK with a centralised health system is well equipped to contain this but the trade off will be a 2020 recession. It should be lighter than in Asia, given the UK’s economic bias to services, which apart from tourism can be satisfactorily managed on a Work From Home basis. Good job the new boy at No 11 has a fiscally expansionist Budget lined up. And I see they are taking my advice in random testing of thousands to see if there’s a hidden reservoir of mild or asymptomatic cases

    The reactive rather than proactive response from the Health Dept and FCO are not however very encouraging. Telling people that have visited Italy to self isolate is all well and good, but why were you letting them go there on Monday in the first place? Hancock cut a pathetic figure with his “ooh well I’m not saying don’t go to Italy. Or am I? I wouldn’t go. Should you? Ooh I don’t know really, let me come back to you when we’ve wasted another day thinking about it”.

    As others have noted, they should also be throwing money at ramping up ICU beds and I’ve seen no sign of that yet.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 17,469

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    Damning Boris by quoting official government documents, for Richard is such a scoundrel

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    Unfortunately for the EU their counter-party in these negotiations has recently received a majority of >80 in a general election, as a result of the unfathomable wisdom of the British public.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    Ouch.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106
    edited February 2020

    Harvard epidemiology professor, Lipsitch: “I think the likely outcome is that it will ultimately not be containable.”

    "Lipsitch predicts that, within the coming year, some 40 to 70 percent of people around the world will be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19. But, he clarifies emphatically, this does not mean that all will have severe illnesses. “It’s likely that many will have mild disease, or may be asymptomatic,” he said."

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/02/covid-vaccine/607000/

    That sounds all nice and lovely and he's right going on the experience so far: most will have mild symptoms and recover. However, it does rather leave a lot unsaid about those who don't, if his estimate is right.

    Let's stick some numbers on it.

    40% of the global population is 3.1bn; 70% is 5.4bn.

    Even if only 1% of those with Covid-19 die, then that's a death toll of 30-55m.

    On the other hand, if health systems are overwhelmed and not only the 2% of cases as experienced in Wuhan result in deaths but a third of the critical ones too, due to lack of care facilities (giving a 3.5% mortality rate), then that's about 110-190m people, or two to three times the death toll from WW2.

    That's not counting secondary effects, from health systems collapsing due to infected staff through to severe economic, social and political disruption.
    73 million actually died in WW2 and of those who actually served in the armed forces, Nazi Germany had a 29% death rate, Japan a 25% death rate and the Soviet Union a 31% death rate, rather more than 1-3%
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,251
    HYUFD said:

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    D
    HYUFD said:
    I find it hard to believe Bloomberg is polling five points higher among black voters than the population as a whole.
  • HYUFD said:

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple
    Isn’t the commitment to maintain the existing level playing field requirements, but eu now want dynamic alignment on their terms only. They shout and we jump. Always been dead against no deal and walking away. But now it is becoming evident that there is no good faith.
  • Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    One of the things that slightly concerns me about coronavirus is the way that a lot of people/politicians who could have been relied upon until very recently to caution against any sort of panic that might make matters worse are not necessarily taking that approach today. A possible reason for this is that they themselves have been unsettled by recent political events such as Brexit, Trump, Putin, Syria, etc. I hope I'm wrong about this though.

    Not panic, but severe closedowns and quarantine are simply the most effective control methods. They also spread the duration of the pandemic to use scarce health resources better.




    To take some examples from the Pandemic Flu plan for Leics (pop 1050000, so multiply by 70 or so for UK figures) with an infection rate of 50% and 2.5% fatality rate there would be 12,500 excess deaths in a 3 month pandemic, reduce that infection rate to 25% and the excess deaths are 6,250. Roughly this projects to 350000 nationally.

    If the mortality is half that, then we are looking at 175000 lives saved. It is a No brainer. Today in Italy there were an increase of 40% of cases, but the measures have only been in place a couple of days, so these are people infected before the measures were put in place.

    Those no deal Brexit refrigeration capacity would come in handy to store the bodies.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Andy_JS said:

    One of the things that slightly concerns me about coronavirus is the way that a lot of people/politicians who could have been relied upon until very recently to caution against any sort of panic that might make matters worse are not necessarily taking that approach today. A possible reason for this is that they themselves have been unsettled by recent political events such as Brexit, Trump, Putin, Syria, etc. I hope I'm wrong about this though.

    That's the thing causing concern for me. The CDC mood music has changed massively over the past few days.

    If this does get into the wild in my area of the UK I'd rather not got out if I can avoid it. Given how quickly it has gone from one confirmed case to hundreds in Italy, SK, and Iran once they start testing the general population, I've decided to grab another few weeks worth of food, and keeping my petrol tank full.

    I am personally at almost no risk of death from it, but I'd like to have the resources to avoid my parents needing to go out if this does get here.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,409
    Did anyone bet on Bernie using the word billionaires within the first 5 seconds of the debate?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106

    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
    The political declaration is not legally binding and nothing in the terms of a Canada style deal prevents a reasonable level playing field
  • HYUFD said:

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    I think you want a playing field that is much bigger, by more than an order of magnitude, and much more diverse, with much more far reaching consequences.

    I think it should be obvious that for a much bigger and much more complicated playing field the provisions which try to achieve a fair and even level will also have to be more extensive and - for both partners - also more intrusive.

    The more you try to limit the level playing field provisions, the more the playing field will shrink, but that will not turn out to be Simples.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,409
    edited February 2020
    Biden seems to be performing a little better tonight.

    Live stream:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klDbFuxmXrA
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
    The political declaration is not legally binding and nothing in the terms of a Canada style deal prevents a reasonable level playing field
    Nothing in CETA should prevent a level playing field between Canada and the EU, but due to the entirely different size and nature of the UK-EU playing field, CETA on its own could not secure that this different playing field was and remained leveled and fair.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106

    HYUFD said:

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    I think you want a playing field that is much bigger, by more than an order of magnitude, and much more diverse, with much more far reaching consequences.

    I think it should be obvious that for a much bigger and much more complicated playing field the provisions which try to achieve a fair and even level will also have to be more extensive and - for both partners - also more intrusive.

    The more you try to limit the level playing field provisions, the more the playing field will shrink, but that will not turn out to be Simples.
    Most UK exports now go outside the EU and if the EU insist on keeping the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union in all but name rather than agree a simpler Canada style FTA then WTO terms it will have to be
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,106

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
    The political declaration is not legally binding and nothing in the terms of a Canada style deal prevents a reasonable level playing field
    Nothing in CETA should prevent a level playing field between Canada and the EU, but due to the entirely different size and nature of the UK-EU playing field, CETA on its own could not secure that this different playing field was and remained leveled and fair.
    It could, just Barnier and the EU are ideologically determined to ensure that it won't
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer



    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    I think you want a playing field that is much bigger, by more than an order of magnitude, and much more diverse, with much more far reaching consequences.

    I think it should be obvious that for a much bigger and much more complicated playing field the provisions which try to achieve a fair and even level will also have to be more extensive and - for both partners - also more intrusive.

    The more you try to limit the level playing field provisions, the more the playing field will shrink, but that will not turn out to be Simples.
    Most UK exports now go outside the EU and if the EU insist on keeping the UK in the Single Market and Customs Union in all but name rather than agree a simpler Canada style FTA then WTO terms it will have to be
    I agree that the no deal scenario is now by far the most likely outcome, but it will not be Simples for the EU, and it will be even much, much less Simples for the UK.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,341
    Chameleon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    One of the things that slightly concerns me about coronavirus is the way that a lot of people/politicians who could have been relied upon until very recently to caution against any sort of panic that might make matters worse are not necessarily taking that approach today. A possible reason for this is that they themselves have been unsettled by recent political events such as Brexit, Trump, Putin, Syria, etc. I hope I'm wrong about this though.

    That's the thing causing concern for me. The CDC mood music has changed massively over the past few days.

    If this does get into the wild in my area of the UK I'd rather not got out if I can avoid it. Given how quickly it has gone from one confirmed case to hundreds in Italy, SK, and Iran once they start testing the general population, I've decided to grab another few weeks worth of food, and keeping my petrol tank full.

    I am personally at almost no risk of death from it, but I'd like to have the resources to avoid my parents needing to go out if this does get here.
    Good plan. We're stocking up on foods and pet food.

    Also, get a supply of neoprene gloves to wear while in public, and a large supplies of hand sanitizer and alcohol wipes for wiping down things you have to touch. Learn how to take the gloves off without infecting yourself
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773

    HYUFD said:

    Well, well. I see some people were objecting to my characterisation of the Boris government as the worst in my lifetime (I was born in 1953. so I've seen a fair number).

    Let's see:

    However, Downing Street reacted negatively to the suggestion and claimed it did not recognise the need for a “level playing field” between the UK and EU at all, in spite of the goals of the political declaration.

    “Level playing field is an EU construct, not a piece of terminology which we use,” Boris Johnson’s official spokesman said.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/25/downing-street-rejects-eu-opening-trade-offer

    And let's contrast that with the Political Declaration which Boris signed up to:

    Page 6: However, with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part [and other reference on the same page]

    Page 14, heading for Section XIV: XIV. LEVEL PLAYING FIELD FOR OPEN AND FAIR COMPETITION...
    the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field


    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840656/Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_European_Union_and_the_United_Kingdom.pdf

    One can hardly blame the EU for being dubious about whether this government can be trusted in anything.

    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple
    Isn’t the commitment to maintain the existing level playing field requirements, but eu now want dynamic alignment on their terms only. They shout and we jump. Always been dead against no deal and walking away. But now it is becoming evident that there is no good faith.
    Lack of good faith by the EU was what underpinned the rejection of the Backstop for many of us.

    Seems we were right to worry.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,409
    edited February 2020
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
    The LPF in the political declaration is far more vague than what the EU is trying to negotiate in the new negotiating guidelines. They all talk about the reference point being EU law, but not UK law. How is that level? It is tilted in favour of them.

    The EU is demanding unreasonable things once again. They are making the same mistake for the third time in this mess.
  • Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,644

    Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.

    Apparently he's going to "dictate" to China and send in US people to monitor their handling of the coronavirus outbreak.
  • Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.

    Apparently he's going to "dictate" to China and send in US people to monitor their handling of the coronavirus outbreak.
    I'm sure that'll go down well with voters.....if not the Chinese.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773

    Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.

    Apparently he's going to "dictate" to China and send in US people to monitor their handling of the coronavirus outbreak.
    I'm sure that'll go down well with voters.....if not the Chinese.....
    I seem to remember a film where them sneaky Chinese were drilling tunnels across the Pacific from which to invade the USA.

    Seems Biden can remember that movie too. Except, he recalls it as a documentary.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773

    Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.

    Just been bidin' his time.

    Seems he can remember Ali's rope-a-dope too.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 51,773
    "Battle Beneath the Earth" was the movie. Described as "deliriously paranoid".

    A British movie frm the mid 60's. You can tell it is a British movie because all the Chinese characters are played by Brits with names like Martin and Peter.....

    "But Martin was born in the East End of London, into a Jewish family, the son of a Russian-Jewish grocer and his Polish-Jewish wife who had left Russia at the revolution....."

    "Quite. He looks like a dodgy foreigner. He'll do....."

    Back in the days when UKIP made movies......
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836

    Biden seems a lot livelier tonight.

    Someone must have told him to be more passionate. Which he interpreted as yelling all the time.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,321
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    We simply want the same level playing field the EU required from Canada or Japan for its FTAs with them, if not we walk and go to WTO terms. Simple

    And not, for example, the level playing field as defined in the agreement that we signed only last year? An Englishman's word is apparently akin to a mayfly...
    The political declaration is not legally binding and nothing in the terms of a Canada style deal prevents a reasonable level playing field
    Nothing in CETA should prevent a level playing field between Canada and the EU, but due to the entirely different size and nature of the UK-EU playing field, CETA on its own could not secure that this different playing field was and remained leveled and fair.
    It could, just Barnier and the EU are ideologically determined to ensure that it won't
    The toys are well and truly being thrown out of the pram right now.

    This is Brexit. Get used to it.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123
    It's been fun watching all the really clever analysts on here respond to the coronavirus. Some update their views quickly, some just double down again and again.
This discussion has been closed.