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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ethics man. God, mammon and investing

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  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    tlg86 said:

    Andy Street is a very good politician in terms of not answering questions.

    He does tend to go around the houses.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    DRS going pear shaped in Jo'burg.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Interesting topic - it is certainly easier to tweet and shriek at someone else to sell shares than it is to give up daddy giving you and your stuff a lift to Uni in his Range Rover at the start of each term.

    Or indeed, Daddy's investment portfolio, where dividends from hydrocarbons companies helped pay for his offspring's private education....
    The position is exactly analogous to saying, pre-Wilberforce, that you will have nothing to do with investment in slave ships but absolutely have to have sugar in your tea. By nailing do-nothing blowhardery so accurately the bursar has actually done the climate a huge favour.
    As Alastair might have pointed out, it would be relatively simple for a college with the assets of St. John’s to do something about their antiquated heating system, should they care to. The analogy is far from exact.
    "Do something" like what? Convert it to run on nuclear fusion? Fuck knows how you know whether it's antiquated or not, but fossil fuel burning systems burn fossil fuel. "Antiquated" is merely about 10% efficiency gains. "Save the planet, but only if it causes me not the slightest possible inconvenience or discomfort" isn't going to work, and the professor of neurology (who is possibly almost as intelligent and scientifically well-informed as you are) nails the point admirably.
    I don't know the heating system either.
    Maybe it already has an energy supplier that uses renewables, maybe he's looked into ground source heat pumps and changed all the lighting to LEDs.
    Or maybe not.
    Well if you don't know what is the point of that post? A celebration of international blowhardery day? Are you going to tell us which of those things you have done?
    Why make it personal?
    I didn't make fun of your "Convert it to run on nuclear fusion? " despite it being stupid.
    And yes, as a matter of fact, I have done all three - not that it matters.
    Thank you for discounting the possibility that my nuclear fusion suggestion was in any way frivolous.
  • ydoethur said:

    This must surely be the finest excuse for late running of trains in the history of railways:

    Meanwhile, Southeastern train services have been disrupted by a trampoline blowing onto the line.

    Link (with photo):

    Storm Ciara: Travel disruption as UK hit by severe gales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51425482

    Not as good as this excuse as used by Northern in December.


    That indicator board reminds me of an acquaintance who got on the first train thinking it went to London, although now I am intrigued by Blackpool North Pole.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    My son has just entered a Bank of England essay writing competition about this, pretty much. The absolute key to Alastair's excellent piece is that if you want to stop people investing in getting oil out of the ground you need to stop the demand for oil. Those focusing on the investment are doomed to fail as long as there is sufficient demand for the product to be sold at a profit.

    The tipping point for that change may be closer than we think. When it comes it will be momentous. And those that are invested in those oil giants will suffer. There is a huge amount of capital tied up in getting oil out of the ground and processed. That capital could quickly turn from asset to liability if the demand were to go and all that is left is the clean up costs.

    Quite, businesses need customers much, much more than they need shareholders. "I use prostitutes but I don't invest in brothels" is neither morally nor economically coherent.
  • King Cole, is Mr. Eagles from the north? His fashion sense is distinctly southern.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy Street is a very good politician in terms of not answering questions.

    He does tend to go around the houses.
    He's detached from reality.
  • DavidL said:

    My son has just entered a Bank of England essay writing competition about this, pretty much. The absolute key to Alastair's excellent piece is that if you want to stop people investing in getting oil out of the ground you need to stop the demand for oil. Those focusing on the investment are doomed to fail as long as there is sufficient demand for the product to be sold at a profit.

    The tipping point for that change may be closer than we think. When it comes it will be momentous. And those that are invested in those oil giants will suffer. There is a huge amount of capital tied up in getting oil out of the ground and processed. That capital could quickly turn from asset to liability if the demand were to go and all that is left is the clean up costs.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/the-100-year-march-of-technology-in-1-graph/255573/

    -- In 1900, <10% of families owned a stove, or had access to electricity or phones

    -- In 1915, <10% of families owned a car

    -- In 1930, <10% of families owned a refrigerator or clothes washer

    -- In 1945, <10% of families owned a clothes dryer or air-conditioning

    -- In 1960, <10% of families owned a dishwasher or color TV

    -- In 1975, <10% of families owned a microwave

    -- In 1990, <10% of families had a cell phone or access to the Internet

    "So far, the positive trend continues throughout 2018, with Plugin Electric Vehicles now having a global marketshare of 4.6%, almost double from what it was in 2017."
    https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/13/all-electric-car-market-share-on-the-rise-worldwide/
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253
    Thank you for an interesting piece, Alistair.

    It's nice to see some ethical leadership / reflection from an Oxford College for once (compare the Rhodes Must Go LMF).

    I think the contrast is whether long term engagement works better than one off kneejerks.

    The one thing that we know is that *if* they disinvest, they lose all influence.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    tlg86 said:

    DRS going pear shaped in Jo'burg.

    Looks more like the umpires doing something very strange.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Type 31 Frigate delayed by four years. Defence spending is definitely going on the back burner so the government can plant palm trees on roundabouts in Spennymoor.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Looks like karma has brought justice upon S Africa!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253
    edited February 2020
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just a thought as well, but probably the Bursar would be very happy to turn the CH off as it would save an absolute fortune in gas bills.

    Even turning it down to 18° (Newsflash - I find that temperature perfectly adequate) would probably save a huge sum of money

    Surely in this story the Bursar instead of being pompous should serve his customers, reduce investments in fossil fuels, and fund more efficient heating.
    They aren't his main customers. eg the endowment funds 20m a year of research (says the accounts if I read correctly).

    I think if the shouters offered to fund the losses somehow, then that might be tenable eg by higher fees followed by contributions once they have graduated.

    Or perhaps they can identify which research projects they want canned or which students on funded bursaries they want expelled to satisfy their kneejerks.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Interesting topic - it is certainly easier to tweet and shriek at someone else to sell shares than it is to give up daddy giving you and your stuff a lift to Uni in his Range Rover at the start of each term.

    Or indeed, Daddy's investment portfolio, where dividends from hydrocarbons companies helped pay for his offspring's private education....
    The position is exactly analogous to saying, pre-Wilberforce, that you will have nothing to do with investment in slave ships but absolutely have to have sugar in your tea. By nailing do-nothing blowhardery so accurately the bursar has actually done the climate a huge favour.
    As Alastair might have pointed out, it would be relatively simple for a college with the assets of St. John’s to do something about their antiquated heating system, should they care to. The analogy is far from exact.
    "Do something" like what? Convert it to run on nuclear fusion? Fuck knows how you know whether it's antiquated or not, but fossil fuel burning systems burn fossil fuel. "Antiquated" is merely about 10% efficiency gains. "Save the planet, but only if it causes me not the slightest possible inconvenience or discomfort" isn't going to work, and the professor of neurology (who is possibly almost as intelligent and scientifically well-informed as you are) nails the point admirably.
    I don't know the heating system either.
    Maybe it already has an energy supplier that uses renewables, maybe he's looked into ground source heat pumps and changed all the lighting to LEDs.
    Or maybe not.
    Well if you don't know what is the point of that post? A celebration of international blowhardery day? Are you going to tell us which of those things you have done?
    Why make it personal?
    I didn't make fun of your "Convert it to run on nuclear fusion? " despite it being stupid.
    And yes, as a matter of fact, I have done all three - not that it matters.
    Thank you for discounting the possibility that my nuclear fusion suggestion was in any way frivolous.
    Is that the best you can do ;-)
  • ydoethur said:

    This must surely be the finest excuse for late running of trains in the history of railways:

    Meanwhile, Southeastern train services have been disrupted by a trampoline blowing onto the line.

    Link (with photo):

    Storm Ciara: Travel disruption as UK hit by severe gales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51425482

    Not as good as this excuse as used by Northern in December.


    That indicator board reminds me of an acquaintance who got on the first train thinking it went to London, although now I am intrigued by Blackpool North Pole.
    Ha! Got a shock presumably when he got off and instead of people speaking investment banking they were speaking scouse!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    IanB2 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Andy Street is a very good politician in terms of not answering questions.

    He does tend to go around the houses.
    He's detached from reality.
    bit like Boris really...
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individuals (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253
    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?
  • ydoethur said:

    This must surely be the finest excuse for late running of trains in the history of railways:

    Meanwhile, Southeastern train services have been disrupted by a trampoline blowing onto the line.

    Link (with photo):

    Storm Ciara: Travel disruption as UK hit by severe gales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51425482

    Not as good as this excuse as used by Northern in December.


    That indicator board reminds me of an acquaintance who got on the first train thinking it went to London, although now I am intrigued by Blackpool North Pole.
    Around Christmas time they rename some stations to something a bit more festive.

    So Blackpool North becomes Blackpool North Pole.

    https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/northern-rail-changed-signs-say-17391943
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    MattW said:

    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Just a thought as well, but probably the Bursar would be very happy to turn the CH off as it would save an absolute fortune in gas bills.

    Even turning it down to 18° (Newsflash - I find that temperature perfectly adequate) would probably save a huge sum of money

    Surely in this story the Bursar instead of being pompous should serve his customers, reduce investments in fossil fuels, and fund more efficient heating.
    They aren't his main customers. eg the endownment funds 20m a year of research.

    I think if the shouters offered to fund the losses somehow, then that might be tenable eg by higher fees followed by contributions once they have graduated.

    Or perhaps they can identify which research projects they want canned or which students on funded bursaries they want expelled to satisfy their kneejerks.
    Who knows, perhaps a less backward looking and more considered investment strategy may yield better results. Either a way the students are right to ask questions, the more we can do to shine a light on the murky world of these funds the better.
  • MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    Paging Carole Conspiracy....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    ydoethur said:

    This must surely be the finest excuse for late running of trains in the history of railways:

    Meanwhile, Southeastern train services have been disrupted by a trampoline blowing onto the line.

    Link (with photo):

    Storm Ciara: Travel disruption as UK hit by severe gales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51425482

    Not as good as this excuse as used by Northern in December.


    That indicator board reminds me of an acquaintance who got on the first train thinking it went to London, although now I am intrigued by Blackpool North Pole.
    Around Christmas time they rename some stations to something a bit more festive.

    So Blackpool North becomes Blackpool North Pole.

    https://www.lancs.live/news/lancashire-news/northern-rail-changed-signs-say-17391943
    But surely, it’s warmer and much busier at the real North Pole?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,148
    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    Corbynistas on the NEC in a last throw of the dice to try and stop Starmer
  • ydoethur said:

    This must surely be the finest excuse for late running of trains in the history of railways:

    Meanwhile, Southeastern train services have been disrupted by a trampoline blowing onto the line.

    Link (with photo):

    Storm Ciara: Travel disruption as UK hit by severe gales https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51425482

    Not as good as this excuse as used by Northern in December.


    That indicator board reminds me of an acquaintance who got on the first train thinking it went to London, although now I am intrigued by Blackpool North Pole.
    Ha! Got a shock presumably when he got off and instead of people speaking investment banking they were speaking scouse!
    Years ago when I worked in Leeds, and before satnavs were a thing my friend had to go to South Shields, she asked me for how to get there, I said jump on the A1 and drive for about 2 hours and you'll be there.

    About three hours later, I get a phone call, see says 'I've been driving for three hours, and I'm not there' and I said 'Where are you now?' and she replied 'I've just passed Biggleswade'

    She had assumed South Shields was in the South.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    The departure board reminds be of a time at Stansted train station

    Two trains on adjacent platforms

    Platform 1: London Liverpool Street
    Platform 2: Liverpool Lime Street

    A poor Japanese tourist was most confused. I still wonder if he got to his destination.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individuals (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
    All would help, of course. But the fact of the matter is that while some people will do some of those things, not everyone will (given that we're depending here on the actions of human beings, not programmable robots). So, in order to meet the target there is going to have to be corporate and governmental action involved as well.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
    Are you saying that certain people in Labour lack sufficient ‘bravery’?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,153
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
    Are you saying that certain people in Labour lack sufficient ‘bravery’?
    Not usually, but here, yes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
    It would be bloody stupid.

    But we are talking about people who apparently think Jeremy Corbyn was a dazzling success.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    Exactly the same.

    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    It isn't, so it won't be.

    Same with gas boilers. I can get an eco-boiler from Worcester Borsch for under £2k. Ground-source/air-source heat pumps (which I've looked at) are in the £10-£20k range, and may require me to change all my radiators for thousands more too.

    No thanks.

    This Government isn't (yet) serious about it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individual (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
    Thank you. I will look out for his book.

    The first three I have been doing for years. The single most effective heating thing I have done was to install really good insulation. Once the droughts were eliminated it became very much easier to turn the heating right down. I walk and cycle and certainly use my car much less (hardly at all in London. Cumbria is a different matter.). And I eat little meat. Plus I’ve planted trees and my garden is a wildlife habitat.

    I’m sure all these individual steps help but it is frustrating that other steps which governments could be doing - like charging infrastructure - are not (at least as far as I can see) being done.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individuals (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
    All would help, of course. But the fact of the matter is that while some people will do some of those things, not everyone will (given that we're depending here on the actions of human beings, not programmable robots). So, in order to meet the target there is going to have to be corporate and governmental action involved as well.
    Of course.

    But, it is all too easy for people to do nothing and say "The Government haven't invested enough money in changing my gas boiler."

    It is a personal responsibility. As well as corporate and governmental.

    I would put more faith in individuals rather than Governments myself. "Put not your faith in Princes ..." as the Psalmist said.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    @Richard_Nabavi

    Many thanks for the SF tip the other day.

    I backed at 2.5 and laid back at 1.25 (for more than 30 seats).

    Smug city. Although that is not quite apt for when I'm following not leading.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
    It would be bloody stupid.

    But we are talking about people who apparently think Jeremy Corbyn was a dazzling success.
    What are you talking about, didn't you see twitter after the GE, he won the argument on every topic. He said so himself.
  • kinabalu said:

    @Richard_Nabavi

    Many thanks for the SF tip the other day.

    I backed at 2.5 and laid back at 1.25 (for more than 30 seats).

    Smug city. Although that is not quite apt for when I'm following not leading.

    Yes, thanks for the tip, Richard.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    One other point on the social responsibility issue. If changes were made on the “remoteness of damage” issue what about companies who o-operate with governments who do bad things or whose products are used by them? Not just the obvious ones - such as arms companies. But a company whose digital equipment is used by authoritarian governments to suppress their population, for instance. A Huawei, say, about whom credible evidence has been put forward on their involvement in the persecution of the Uighurs. Should one be investing in them? Or using their products?

    Social responsibility and paying for damage, even if remote will raise all sorts of difficult issues than simply charging fast food companies for cleaning up litter or oil companies for the carbon they’re pumping into the atmosphere.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    MattW said:

    Uh-oh. Labour Database Scandal.

    Dodgy membership access by Starmer and Long-Bailey. Apparently,

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51432440

    Starmer the Charmer: Yes we did. We were testing a tool and it was fine. Go away.
    RLB: Did we?

    If they both get disqualified Nandy wins by default.

    That would be very, very funny.

    And we would need a whole new phrase about incompetents being unable to organise a leadership contest in a political party.
    Disqualified? You're having a laugh. Excluding the most popular candidates on technicalities would be, er, brave.
    Are you saying that certain people in Labour lack sufficient ‘bravery’?
    Not usually, but here, yes.
    Indeed, Labour and brave never seem to come together in the same sentence. The last "brave" leader was Kinnock in throwing out Militant.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    Exactly the same.

    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    It isn't, so it won't be.

    Same with gas boilers. I can get an eco-boiler from Worcester Borsch for under £2k. Ground-source/air-source heat pumps (which I've looked at) are in the £10-£20k range, and may require me to change all my radiators for thousands more too.

    No thanks.

    This Government isn't (yet) serious about it.
    "Every year, BloombergNEF’s advanced transport team builds a bottom-up analysis of the cost of purchasing an electric vehicle and compares it to the cost of a combustion-engine vehicle of the same size. The crossover point when electric vehicles become cheaper than their combustion-engine equivalents will be a crucial moment for the EV market. All things being equal, upfront price parity makes a buyer’s decision to buy an EV a matter of taste, style or preference but not, for much longer, a matter of cost.

    Every year, that crossover point gets closer. In 2017, a BloombergNEF analysis forecast that the crossover point was in 2026, nine years out. In 2018, the crossover point was in 2024 six years (or, as I described it then, two lease cycles) out.

    The crossover point, per the latest analysis, is now 2022 for large vehicles in the European Union. For that, we can thank the incredible shrinking electric vehicle battery, which isn’t so much shrinking in size as it is shrinking dramatically in cost.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost

    I can't yet justify the cost of an electric car, so I'm making my existing car last longer,
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,442

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    Exactly the same.

    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    It isn't, so it won't be.

    Same with gas boilers. I can get an eco-boiler from Worcester Borsch for under £2k. Ground-source/air-source heat pumps (which I've looked at) are in the £10-£20k range, and may require me to change all my radiators for thousands more too.

    No thanks.

    This Government isn't (yet) serious about it.
    If only we had the chance to vote for a government that would take it seriously?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individual (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
    Thank you. I will look out for his book.

    The first three I have been doing for years. The single most effective heating thing I have done was to install really good insulation. Once the droughts were eliminated it became very much easier to turn the heating right down. I walk and cycle and certainly use my car much less (hardly at all in London. Cumbria is a different matter.). And I eat little meat. Plus I’ve planted trees and my garden is a wildlife habitat.

    I’m sure all these individual steps help but it is frustrating that other steps which governments could be doing - like charging infrastructure - are not (at least as far as I can see) being done.
    Met a guy a couple of years ago who'd not long bought a hybrid. At the time we were both undergoing radiotherapy for prostate cancer so met daily for quite a while. Said that he'd not bought any petrol since he'd bought the car.
  • Cyclefree said:

    One other point on the social responsibility issue. If changes were made on the “remoteness of damage” issue what about companies who o-operate with governments who do bad things or whose products are used by them? Not just the obvious ones - such as arms companies. But a company whose digital equipment is used by authoritarian governments to suppress their population, for instance. A Huawei, say, about whom credible evidence has been put forward on their involvement in the persecution of the Uighurs. Should one be investing in them? Or using their products?

    Social responsibility and paying for damage, even if remote will raise all sorts of difficult issues than simply charging fast food companies for cleaning up litter or oil companies for the carbon they’re pumping into the atmosphere.

    It’s not easy but it needs to be tried. As @rcs1000 hints below, simply taxing for negative externalities isn’t very effective (and arguably sanctions socially harmful behaviour).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,675
    It’s funny how certain right wing types look to government to act first. They’ll be demanding an EU subsidy next.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    You can see the numbers in David MacKay's book (which is free to download, because the man was so nice).

    He estimates per individual the savings from things we could each do.

    https://www.withouthotair.com/c29/page_229.shtml

    Put on a woolly jumper and turn down your heating’s thermostat (to 15 or 17 °C, say). Put individual thermostats on all radiators. Make sure the heating’s off when no-one’s at home. Do the same at work ... 20 kWh/d

    Stop flying .... 35 kWh/d

    Eat vegetarian, six days out of seven .... 10 kWh/d

    Replace fossil-fuel heating by ground-source or air-source heat pumps .... 10 kWh/d

    Drive less, drive more slowly, drive more gently, car-pool, use an electric car, join a car club, cycle, walk, use trains and buses ... 20 kWh/d

    Notice the small actions by individuals (stopping flying & turning your thermostat down) are more effective than big actions like installing a new heating system, or using an electric car.

    David MacKay FRS was an extremely gifted physicist (who died sadly young) & was energy advisor to the Labour/Coalition Governments.
    All would help, of course. But the fact of the matter is that while some people will do some of those things, not everyone will (given that we're depending here on the actions of human beings, not programmable robots). So, in order to meet the target there is going to have to be corporate and governmental action involved as well.
    Of course.

    But, it is all too easy for people to do nothing and say "The Government haven't invested enough money in changing my gas boiler."

    It is a personal responsibility. As well as corporate and governmental.

    I would put more faith in individuals rather than Governments myself. "Put not your faith in Princes ..." as the Psalmist said.
    Oh, I quite agree. If we all do something, rather than nothing, it helps. And it sends a pretty important signal to politicians about what is important to voters. My boiler is pretty efficient so I am more likely to sell the house than replace the boiler. But if I did end up staying in it then the issue of replacement is likely to arise and that is where financial incentives can help.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:

    One other point on the social responsibility issue. If changes were made on the “remoteness of damage” issue what about companies who o-operate with governments who do bad things or whose products are used by them? Not just the obvious ones - such as arms companies. But a company whose digital equipment is used by authoritarian governments to suppress their population, for instance. A Huawei, say, about whom credible evidence has been put forward on their involvement in the persecution of the Uighurs. Should one be investing in them? Or using their products?

    Social responsibility and paying for damage, even if remote will raise all sorts of difficult issues than simply charging fast food companies for cleaning up litter or oil companies for the carbon they’re pumping into the atmosphere.

    It’s not easy but it needs to be tried. As @rcs1000 hints below, simply taxing for negative externalities isn’t very effective (and arguably sanctions socially harmful behaviour).
    Indeed. Thank you for an interesting article.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Type 31 Frigate delayed by four years. Defence spending is definitely going on the back burner so the government can plant palm trees on roundabouts in Spennymoor.

    Conservative manifesto, December 2019:
    We will support the UK’s worldclass defence industry by investing in ambitious global programmes, including building the new Type 31 frigates in British shipyards such as Rosyth

    Still, it was only a political promise.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited February 2020
    Cyclefree said:



    Oh, I quite agree. If we all do something, rather than nothing, it helps. And it sends a pretty important signal to politicians about what is important to voters. My boiler is pretty efficient so I am more likely to sell the house than replace the boiler. But if I did end up staying in it then the issue of replacement is likely to arise and that is where financial incentives can help.

    I am in perfect agreement .. apart from I approve of guilt-tripping (cf your first post).

    Next time pb.com turns into a travel and flying blog .. with posters swapping tips on corporate lounges and bragging about executive clubs and second homes on the Continent and third foreign holidays ... let's call out these planet-abusers for who they are.
  • HYUFD said:
    I posted that earlier but I may have forgotten to draw attention to the KLOBUCHAR SURGE
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Dura_Ace said:



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
    A garage. Lucky old you.

    ** Looks out at street of terraced houses where you’re lucky to to park anywhere near your house let alone in front to enable charging when you need it. **

    This is why having reliable public charging infrastructure is so necessary. Norway is doing it. Why aren’t we?
  • Mr. Cwsc, must say I think guilt-tripping is a horrendous tactic. On a personal note, it'd make me turn right off whoever was making it.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Mr. Cwsc, must say I think guilt-tripping is a horrendous tactic. On a personal note, it'd make me turn right off whoever was making it.

    It is simply asking for people to live up to their words.

    I approve of Greta T & Coldplay, because they are taking actions, not just spouting words.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50490700
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Unbelievable that this woman is in the running for deputy leader.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318

    Cyclefree said:



    Oh, I quite agree. If we all do something, rather than nothing, it helps. And it sends a pretty important signal to politicians about what is important to voters. My boiler is pretty efficient so I am more likely to sell the house than replace the boiler. But if I did end up staying in it then the issue of replacement is likely to arise and that is where financial incentives can help.

    I am in perfect agreement .. apart from I approve of guilt-tripping (cf your first post).

    Next time pb.com turns into a travel and flying blog .. with posters swapping tips on corporate lounges and bragging about executive clubs and second homes on the Continent and third foreign holidays ... let's call out these planet-abusers for who they are.
    Hey, I’m Catholic. Guilt-tripping is our thing. 😇 !

    Seriously, a little bit of guilt about our wastefulness is ok but we need more to really do something effective.

    My bugbear is the use of dryers rather than old-fashioned washing lines outside in a garden or strung between balconies.A marvellous way of drying, free, impeccably green and your clothes smell nicer too.

    And yet some people seem to think it frightfully vulgar and downmarket. If it were down to me we’d all have our pants out on a line. I simply don’t understand how a family can do all their washing and dry it indoors without the house being permanently damp or without having enormous electricity bills.
  • China’s Drug Patent Grab Makes Coronavirus Scary for Pharma

    I'm not talking about pharmaceutical companies’ attempts to develop a vaccine, but about intellectual property. Chinese researchers have applied for a patent on an antiviral drug candidate called remdesevir owned by Gilead Sciences Inc. The drug is being tested in clinical trials in short order, but the company could eventually be cut out.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/china-drug-patent-grab-makes-171955356.html
  • John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
    A garage. Lucky old you.

    ** Looks out at street of terraced houses where you’re lucky to to park anywhere near your house let alone in front to enable charging when you need it. **

    This is why having reliable public charging infrastructure is so necessary. Norway is doing it. Why aren’t we?
    Similar problem in a local community. Large proportion of homes in the town centre were built at a time when there were neither cars nor indeed the need to leave the town.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020
    When you think we have heard from the biggest numpty in the Labour party, another one pops up and you think Christ they are even worse. Dawn Butler is a poundshop Diane Abbott.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,120
    edited February 2020

    John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    But but it is actually him that has been bullied...or some such crap.

    "Be Nice to People on Your Way Up. You’ll Meet Them On Your Way Down"
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited February 2020


    SNIP

    I can't yet justify the cost of an electric car, so I'm making my existing car last longer,

    The cost of electric vehicles is the least serious impediment to their widespread adoption.

    Even if there's enough lithium in the world to make all the batteries needed to replace all petrol engines, which might become a problem in the longer term, the likelihood of the required charging technology and especially infrastructure being developed looks remote: simply replacing the present network of petrol stations with charging stations would require batteries that could be fully recharged in two or three minutes: you can imagine the queues if everyone had to wait for 15 minutes or half-an-hour.

    Failing that, people mostly recharging at home would necessitate the installation of electric vehicle charging points on every street and outside every home in the country. And then, unless you nationalise electricity generation and pay for it through the tax system (i.e. cut electricity bills to nil) then you've also got the almighty problem of making sure that everybody who uses a charging point pays for that energy. So what do you do, stick a chip and pin slot in every single one and then hope that they don't break down every five minutes like so many railway station ticket machines? Good luck with that one.

    Electric vehicles are a minority pursuit for people who have their own garages or driveways, or are willing to run a cable out of their window and across the pavement with a bit of old carpet draped across it (and willing to take the risk of a parking space outside their home always being available, and of not being sued for personal injuries by some clumsy clot tripping over it.) They're utterly useless for everyone else, not least the many millions of people who live in flats. Wouldn't we be better off looking at hydrogen as an alternative fuel instead?
  • Mr. Cwsc, I must respectfully disagree.

    Although I am faintly amused that I'm a better 'green' without trying than many other holier-than-thou types (been nearly two decades since my last flight. Gosh, I'm virtuous).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited February 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
    A garage. Lucky old you.

    ** Looks out at street of terraced houses where you’re lucky to to park anywhere near your house let alone in front to enable charging when you need it. **

    This is why having reliable public charging infrastructure is so necessary. Norway is doing it. Why aren’t we?
    We should look at ensuring all shop car parks have a steady supply of charging parking bays, rather than just petrol stations. Parking at a petrol station for 15 minutes won't work, the queues would be ridiculous if everyone needed that. 15 minutes at your local Supermarket/Shopping Centre etc is nothing though.
  • John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    Karma for blocking the investigations while he was Speaker.
  • Looks like we will find out this week if Boris Bridge is going get beyond simply pie in the sky idea....

    Boris Johnson revives £20billion plan for bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland that would mirror the link between Sweden and Denmark

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982525/Boris-Johnson-revives-20billion-plan-bridge-Scotland-Northern-Ireland.html


  • Even if there's enough lithium in the world to make all the batteries needed to replace all petrol engines, which might become a problem in the longer term, the likelihood of the required charging technology and especially infrastructure being developed looks remote: simply replacing the present network of petrol stations with charging stations would require batteries that could be fully recharged in two or three minutes: you can imagine the queues if everyone had to wait for 15 minutes or half-an-hour.

    In Japan they put charging points at convenience stores, which are everywhere, and good places to stop for a coffee or whatever. I don't think this was hard to do - IIUC they're basically just electricity sockets with an appropriate meter, so it's not like dealing with petrol where there's something highly flammable waiting to go up in flames if somebody does something stupid.
  • Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    When you think we have heard from the biggest numpty in the Labour party, another one pops up and you think Christ they are even worse. Dawn Butler is a poundshop Diane Abbott.
    All she has done for the past few years is sit next to Corbyn. She has been used by him because of the colour of her skin.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    MaxPB said:

    Unbelievable that this woman is in the running for deputy leader.
    Burgon is worse. And that really shows the depths to which Labour has sunk - when those two are up for a leadership position
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253
    edited February 2020

    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
    A garage. Lucky old you.

    ** Looks out at street of terraced houses where you’re lucky to to park anywhere near your house let alone in front to enable charging when you need it. **

    This is why having reliable public charging infrastructure is so necessary. Norway is doing it. Why aren’t we?
    Similar problem in a local community. Large proportion of homes in the town centre were built at a time when there were neither cars nor indeed the need to leave the town.
    I think the range thing will be fixed surprisingly quickly - couple of years.

    We quite happily have petrol cars with ranges of 250-300 miles, all it needs is that plus not very much infrastructure. We have less than 10000 petrol stations. Arguably we need say 25-30k to allow for slower charging times.

    I think we will do it, but at the needed rate, which is fine.

    Perhaps what we need is a setup that allow all those petrol stations with Costa Coffees to invest and know they will get a return.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405


    SNIP

    I can't yet justify the cost of an electric car, so I'm making my existing car last longer,

    The cost of electric vehicles is the least serious impediment to their widespread adoption.

    Even if there's enough lithium in the world to make all the batteries needed to replace all petrol engines, which might become a problem in the longer term, the likelihood of the required charging technology and especially infrastructure being developed looks remote: simply replacing the present network of petrol stations with charging stations would require batteries that could be fully recharged in two or three minutes: you can imagine the queues if everyone had to wait for 15 minutes or half-an-hour.

    Failing that, people mostly recharging at home would necessitate the installation of electric vehicle charging points on every street and outside every home in the country. And then, unless you nationalise electricity generation and pay for it through the tax system (i.e. cut electricity bills to nil) then you've also got the almighty problem of making sure that everybody who uses a charging point pays for that energy. So what do you do, stick a chip and pin slot in every single one and then hope that they don't break down every five minutes like so many railway station ticket machines? Good luck with that one.

    Electric vehicles are a minority pursuit for people who have their own garages or driveways, or are willing to run a cable out of their window and across the pavement with a bit of old carpet draped across it (and willing to take the risk of a parking space outside their home always being available, and of not being sued for personal injuries by some clumsy clot tripping over it.) They're utterly useless for everyone else, not least the many millions of people who live in flats. Wouldn't we be better off looking at hydrogen as an alternative fuel instead?
    Hydrogen doesn't work - the production method produces CO2 which is not really going to solve anything.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Re the very interesting Header -

    Conceptually where this goes - and I do find this appealing - is a move away from an off-the-peg, standard rate of Corporation Tax to which all companies are subject towards a rate that is bespoke tailored for each entity according to the nature of its activities. No need to go into great detail at such an early stage in the thinking but to take an obvious example - no, actually no need, the Header has already done this. So, yes, gambling, fast food, oil & gas, the mongers of financial distress, gross obesity and choking pollution respectively, these businesses would pay a higher rate of tax than would, say, a more neutral (in impact) one, e.g. Royal Mail or Marks & Spencers. And then there could be a lower still rate for a company of net positive impact such as one actively engaged in developing new sources of clean and renewable energy.
  • Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    I don't think that's necessarily true. Fossil fuel dependency is basically just a (solvable) technology and organizational problem. Any intelligent human can help solve it. If the average human can do more to help solve it than they consume, more humans will be a net positive.

  • SNIP

    I can't yet justify the cost of an electric car, so I'm making my existing car last longer,

    The cost of electric vehicles is the least serious impediment to their widespread adoption.

    Even if there's enough lithium in the world to make all the batteries needed to replace all petrol engines, which might become a problem in the longer term, the likelihood of the required charging technology and especially infrastructure being developed looks remote: simply replacing the present network of petrol stations with charging stations would require batteries that could be fully recharged in two or three minutes: you can imagine the queues if everyone had to wait for 15 minutes or half-an-hour.

    Failing that, people mostly recharging at home would necessitate the installation of electric vehicle charging points on every street and outside every home in the country. And then, unless you nationalise electricity generation and pay for it through the tax system (i.e. cut electricity bills to nil) then you've also got the almighty problem of making sure that everybody who uses a charging point pays for that energy. So what do you do, stick a chip and pin slot in every single one and then hope that they don't break down every five minutes like so many railway station ticket machines? Good luck with that one.

    Electric vehicles are a minority pursuit for people who have their own garages or driveways, or are willing to run a cable out of their window and across the pavement with a bit of old carpet draped across it (and willing to take the risk of a parking space outside their home always being available, and of not being sued for personal injuries by some clumsy clot tripping over it.) They're utterly useless for everyone else, not least the many millions of people who live in flats. Wouldn't we be better off looking at hydrogen as an alternative fuel instead?
    What's wrong with having recharge bays at Supermarkets/Shopping Centres etc as a solution too? 15 minutes at Morrisons is nothing and why not recharge your vehicle while you pick up your groceries?

    Cost and availability of recharging are the two major blocks. Cost is tumbling down, finding a sane and rational solution for recharging is the major issue. For me I would put a requirement into planning permission for car parks that a certain percentage of spaces include recharging points.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    I'm looking forward to the moment Hoyle gets a peerage the moment he steps down. :D
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405

    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    If the Jaguar iPace was £40k (rather than £65k) and there were charging stations at every petrol station in the country I could tank up in 15 mins or less, then it'd be my next family car.

    The I-Pace makes sense (apart from the comedy build quality but that's just a given with JLR) if you charge it at home then your dependency on charging infrastructure is greatly reduced. I've just had a Chargestorm (Swedish so Greta Approved) installed in the garage so Mrs DA will probably never have to visit a petrol station.
    A garage. Lucky old you.

    ** Looks out at street of terraced houses where you’re lucky to to park anywhere near your house let alone in front to enable charging when you need it. **

    This is why having reliable public charging infrastructure is so necessary. Norway is doing it. Why aren’t we?
    Similar problem in a local community. Large proportion of homes in the town centre were built at a time when there were neither cars nor indeed the need to leave the town.
    or more recently built at a time when John Prescott was discouraging car use by limiting the number of parking spaces available to roughly 1 per flat (if even that).

    Look at any modern housing estate and witness the number of cars parked on the road.
  • MaxPB said:

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
    The environmental impact of each additional human dwarfs all other savings that most of us can make.
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207
    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    It's getting better. I have an electric car with between 200 and 300 miles range depending on temperature and charging on long journeys doesnt take much longer than the time to buy and drink a coffee.

    And the renewable heat initiative gives you payments over up to 20 years. I'm converting to a ground source heat pump and there is a positive return over time without considering the environmental benefits. The problem is the up front cost for which some form of loan scheme would help to get lots of people doing it.
  • Mr. Meeks, sounds draconian. You'll be advocating flight limits and second home bans next.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    MaxPB said:

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
    The environmental impact of each additional human dwarfs all other savings that most of us can make.
    You could sterilise the entire UK population and it would have a negligible impact on global emissions, even in the long term.
  • RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
    The environmental impact of each additional human dwarfs all other savings that most of us can make.
    You could sterilise the entire UK population and it would have a negligible impact on global emissions, even in the long term.
    By the same logic you could spend the rest of your life airborne.
  • BalrogBalrog Posts: 207

    DavidL said:

    My son has just entered a Bank of England essay writing competition about this, pretty much. The absolute key to Alastair's excellent piece is that if you want to stop people investing in getting oil out of the ground you need to stop the demand for oil. Those focusing on the investment are doomed to fail as long as there is sufficient demand for the product to be sold at a profit.

    The tipping point for that change may be closer than we think. When it comes it will be momentous. And those that are invested in those oil giants will suffer. There is a huge amount of capital tied up in getting oil out of the ground and processed. That capital could quickly turn from asset to liability if the demand were to go and all that is left is the clean up costs.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/the-100-year-march-of-technology-in-1-graph/255573/

    -- In 1900, <10% of families owned a stove, or had access to electricity or phones

    -- In 1915, <10% of families owned a car

    -- In 1930, <10% of families owned a refrigerator or clothes washer

    -- In 1945, <10% of families owned a clothes dryer or air-conditioning

    -- In 1960, <10% of families owned a dishwasher or color TV

    -- In 1975, <10% of families owned a microwave

    -- In 1990, <10% of families had a cell phone or access to the Internet

    "So far, the positive trend continues throughout 2018, with Plugin Electric Vehicles now having a global marketshare of 4.6%, almost double from what it was in 2017."
    https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/13/all-electric-car-market-share-on-the-rise-worldwide/</p&gt;
    There is a very interesting article around about the way cars will transition from fossil fuel (ICE) to electric and it is very non-linear. Once people start thinking their next car will be electric, people will hang on to their ICE cars a bit longer waiting to get an electric car, so ICE sale volumes fall off a cliff and major car companies that dont transition fast enough are doomed. The predicted timeframe was I think mid 2020s. Not far off. So long as battery production can keep up...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
    The environmental impact of each additional human dwarfs all other savings that most of us can make.
    You could sterilise the entire UK population and it would have a negligible impact on global emissions, even in the long term.
    By the same logic you could spend the rest of your life airborne.
    Yes, both have a negligible effect. Effort should be spent helping developing countries avoid the need to use fossil fuels by investing in alternatives. Having one less child here and there is nothing.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited February 2020

    MaxPB said:

    Those concerned about their environmental impact might start by having fewer children.

    Why?
    The environmental impact of each additional human dwarfs all other savings that most of us can make.
    It's the average that matters not the median, so if it takes 5 million kids to produce the one genius who makes the battery 5% more efficient that may still be a win.

    Also there's a political impact. It's hard to fix the problem if people who care about fixing it are outnumbered by a demographic bulge of people who don't care that much about the next 40 years, or who are too set in their ways to imagine basic parts of the solution like not charging your car at a petrol station.
  • Balrog said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    It's getting better. I have an electric car with between 200 and 300 miles range depending on temperature and charging on long journeys doesnt take much longer than the time to buy and drink a coffee.

    And the renewable heat initiative gives you payments over up to 20 years. I'm converting to a ground source heat pump and there is a positive return over time without considering the environmental benefits. The problem is the up front cost for which some form of loan scheme would help to get lots of people doing it.
    My UK made hybrid Toyota has a range of 575 miles and I get range anxiety when it drops below 200. Also there's the cost of charging away from home which is not that much less than with a car that does 60 mpg.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    Cyclefree said:

    My bugbear is the use of dryers rather than old-fashioned washing lines outside in a garden or strung between balconies.A marvellous way of drying, free, impeccably green and your clothes smell nicer too.

    And yet some people seem to think it frightfully vulgar and downmarket. If it were down to me we’d all have our pants out on a line. I simply don’t understand how a family can do all their washing and dry it indoors without the house being permanently damp or without having enormous electricity bills.

    I used to help my mother do this when I was small. She would hang the clothes out on a line and I would pass her the pegs. Nice little ritual. The problem with it is the obvious one - the sudden onset of rain.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    RobD said:

    John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    I'm looking forward to the moment Hoyle gets a peerage the moment he steps down. :D
    What is annoying is that people seem to believe Bercow hasn't got a peerage because of Brexit rather than because he's been found to be a bully who played the system to avoid being caught.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    I'm looking forward to the moment Hoyle gets a peerage the moment he steps down. :D
    What is annoying is that people seem to believe Bercow hasn't got a peerage because of Brexit rather than because he's been found to be a bully who played the system to avoid being caught.
    Can't you be happy that it's because of both? :)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,253

    Balrog said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Guilt-tripping can only every get you so far - and it is not far enough.

    I currently drive a petrol fuelled car. I would like to go fully electric but the two things which are holding me back are (1) the poor range - I use my car for long journeys; and (2) the relative lack of fast charging points. Plus the purchase cost is still too high.

    Car companies are, I hope, working on the first. Governments should be investing in the latter. That is one bit of infrastructure spending which is surely needed and should be started pdq, if we want to be serious about caring for the environment.

    Ditto with gas boilers: the government should be making it cost effective for householders to change over. They’re doing nothing. So yes we can turn our heating down, put on vests etc but a financial incentive would really help - much as it did for solar panels on houses.

    It's getting better. I have an electric car with between 200 and 300 miles range depending on temperature and charging on long journeys doesnt take much longer than the time to buy and drink a coffee.

    And the renewable heat initiative gives you payments over up to 20 years. I'm converting to a ground source heat pump and there is a positive return over time without considering the environmental benefits. The problem is the up front cost for which some form of loan scheme would help to get lots of people doing it.
    My UK made hybrid Toyota has a range of 575 miles and I get range anxiety when it drops below 200. Also there's the cost of charging away from home which is not that much less than with a car that does 60 mpg.
    I'm currently on a big 60mpg diesel estate, which I expect to be my last non-electric car. I need to wait for them to be able to tow 2 tons.

    On charging points, I had mine put in with all the neighbours when they were doing them free 3-4 years ago.

    Now you get a 75% grant if you have an eligible electric car.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,468
    edited February 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My bugbear is the use of dryers rather than old-fashioned washing lines outside in a garden or strung between balconies.A marvellous way of drying, free, impeccably green and your clothes smell nicer too.

    And yet some people seem to think it frightfully vulgar and downmarket. If it were down to me we’d all have our pants out on a line. I simply don’t understand how a family can do all their washing and dry it indoors without the house being permanently damp or without having enormous electricity bills.

    I used to help my mother do this when I was small. She would hang the clothes out on a line and I would pass her the pegs. Nice little ritual. The problem with it is the obvious one - the sudden onset of rain.
    My wife's always been in favour of washing lines. As Ms Cyclefree says, clothes smell much better.
    Fortunately we have a small garden where this can be done, but not everywhere locally has such a space.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    Dura_Ace said:

    Type 31 Frigate delayed by four years. Defence spending is definitely going on the back burner so the government can plant palm trees on roundabouts in Spennymoor.

    All those numpties in Glasgow shipyards that voted NO to save their jobs will be cheering today. Their unions gave them great advice.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,230
    edited February 2020

    By the same logic you could spend the rest of your life airborne.

    Mark Mobius was reputed to live on a plane - only ever landing to refuel - but I suppose there is a touch of urban myth in that story.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,359
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    John Bercow’s peerage hopes sunk by third bullying complaint

    A dossier of allegations submitted by his private secretary puts an end to the former Speaker’s hopes of becoming a lord

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/john-bercows-peerage-hopes-sunk-by-third-bullying-complaint-8w7t0q5jz

    I'm looking forward to the moment Hoyle gets a peerage the moment he steps down. :D
    What is annoying is that people seem to believe Bercow hasn't got a peerage because of Brexit rather than because he's been found to be a bully who played the system to avoid being caught.
    Done purely out of spite from Tories who would give a peerage to any despot.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    My bugbear is the use of dryers rather than old-fashioned washing lines outside in a garden or strung between balconies.A marvellous way of drying, free, impeccably green and your clothes smell nicer too.

    And yet some people seem to think it frightfully vulgar and downmarket. If it were down to me we’d all have our pants out on a line. I simply don’t understand how a family can do all their washing and dry it indoors without the house being permanently damp or without having enormous electricity bills.

    I used to help my mother do this when I was small. She would hang the clothes out on a line and I would pass her the pegs. Nice little ritual. The problem with it is the obvious one - the sudden onset of rain.
    A mixed approach to clothes drying is the sensible way forward. Dry outside if and when you can. Use a dryer when you can't. It isn't good to have wet clothes hanging up indoors waiting to dry. Plus not everyone has room to do that.

    We tried, in our new place, to cope without a dryer but decided that having towels drying for 36 hours in the living room was not the way forward.

    So I bought a energy efficient dryer. It is effective and is used once a week. During the summer it will be used less. But the option is there during wet periods. Using it every day won't be happening.

    Personally I prefer having a dryer for infrequent use and not using a dishwasher.
  • Looks like we will find out this week if Boris Bridge is going get beyond simply pie in the sky idea....

    Boris Johnson revives £20billion plan for bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland that would mirror the link between Sweden and Denmark

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7982525/Boris-Johnson-revives-20billion-plan-bridge-Scotland-Northern-Ireland.html

    Compared with HS2, it's a bargain :lol:
This discussion has been closed.