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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Polling suggests that it is going to be harder for Tories

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited December 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Polling suggests that it is going to be harder for Tories to win UKIP votes than for the LDs to win LAB ones

Last week’s Salvation Thanet South polling last week highlighted the reluctance of UKIP voters to switch to the Tories in order to stop EdM being PM. Given that the extent that UKIP switchers are ready to vote blue looks set to be a key determinant at GE2015 I’ve been looking for other data on the issue.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Hhmmmm
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Are all other PBers online buying Xmas gifts ??
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Personally I've just showered the cash on Mrs Jack W with a novelty shoe kit !!

    There's no end to my festive largesse ....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Deja thread vu...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Has anyone looked in on Messr Loony of this parish following the shock announcements that His Holiness is somewhat of the religious inclination and young Tom Daley is vaguely batting for the other first eleven ?!?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Tory Treasury ‏@ToryTreasury 56m

    Lab Shad Energy Minister Julie Elliott blows apart Ed Mili's energy freeze. She told the Daily Politics: "You can't control energy prices".

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    Anecdotally UKIP supporters I have encountered when canvassing generally believe that there is no difference between Labour and the Tories. They are not interested in voting Tory to stop Labour because they think Cameron is pursuing the same policies as Miliband anyway.

    Lib Dem/ Labour switchers, on the other hand, tend to have strong anti-Tory views and are still prepared to back their second-choice party as the lesser of two evils. And Clegg's recent attempts to draw dividing lines between the Lib Dems and Tories is clearly aimed at shoring up support amongst Labour switchers in Lib Dem seats where the Tories are second (which, of course, is most of them).
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    JackW said:

    Personally I've just showered the cash on Mrs Jack W with a novelty shoe kit !!

    There's no end to my festive largesse ....

    If you're feeling like pushing the boat out (tho I think the gravel a tad pricey...)

    http://www.harveynichols.com/hnedit/2013/11/27/sorry-i-spent-it-on-myself/
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Ed Miliband hits out over Wonga & Payday loans. No mention of astute financial investment by Labour Council...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-25184874

    Report to Stella for reprogramming in Room 101.

    Good job there aren't any state breweries.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited December 2013
    anothernick said:

    Anecdotally UKIP supporters I have encountered when canvassing generally believe that there is no difference between Labour and the Tories. They are not interested in voting Tory to stop Labour because they think Cameron is pursuing the same policies as Miliband anyway.

    Lib Dem/ Labour switchers, on the other hand, tend to have strong anti-Tory views and are still prepared to back their second-choice party as the lesser of two evils. And Clegg's recent attempts to draw dividing lines between the Lib Dems and Tories is clearly aimed at shoring up support amongst Labour switchers in Lib Dem seats where the Tories are second (which, of course, is most of them).

    I think that is a truth which a lot of Tories just wont face... the UKIP supporters that previously voted Tory left precisely because Cameron is so like the last elected Labour PM anyway

    Consider whether Cameron is closer to Miliband or Farage on the following...


    EU membership
    Immigration
    Grammar Schools
    Gay Marriage
    Foreign Aid
    Green Energy
    Highest rate of tax


  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Of course the Lib Dems should have no major worries about losing many seats at the GE. Only 7 to 12 will be retiring. Only 19 face Labour as their main challenger although just 1 of the 19 is also retiring. Of the other 38, only 4 face a party that is not Conservative and the Con gains will be kept below 20 ............. So let us just focus on the Con vs LD battles eh! Anyone have a yellow minibus for 2015?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    anothernick said:

    Anecdotally UKIP supporters I have encountered when canvassing generally believe that there is no difference between Labour and the Tories. They are not interested in voting Tory to stop Labour because they think Cameron is pursuing the same policies as Miliband anyway.

    It would be interesting to see what the UKIP>Lab to stop LibDem and vice versa look like - we may be looking at a 'UKIP' issue, rather than a 'Tory' one.....

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    antifrank said:

    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.

    A right that should be afforded to any person whether currently batting, bowling or fielding surely? (and therefore why bother to say it perhaps?)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.

    A right that should be afforded to any person whether currently batting, bowling or fielding surely? (and therefore why bother to say it perhaps?)
    You are obliged to let the umpire know if you switch between round and over the wicket.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Agreed, as it what I was trying to say below, up until...

    "As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters"

    "They might consider becoming ***** voters" rather than "stop being UKIP voters"
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Ishmael_X said:

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.

    A right that should be afforded to any person whether currently batting, bowling or fielding surely? (and therefore why bother to say it perhaps?)
    You are obliged to let the umpire know if you switch between round and over the wicket.

    Haha

    If homosexuality is "bowling", then coming from over or round the wicket could describe which role you play?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The completed two-party preferred results are now finally available for the Australian election:

    Coalition: 6,908,710 (53.49%)
    Labor: 6,006,217 (46.51%)

    http://results.aec.gov.au/17496/Website/HouseTppByDivision-17496-NAT.htm
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I always thought the right euphemism was 'bowling from the pavilion end'. Seems I'm out of touch on the right slang to use these days.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    Thanet South selection — LDs, Russ Timpson:

    http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Lib-Dems-announce-Thanet-South-candidate-General/story-20248689-detail/story.html
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    A gay friend of mine prefers baseball terminology......'pitcher' and 'catcher...'

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    antifrank said:

    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.

    Having your cake and eating it from the pavilion ....

    I've just watched the video.

    It's taken some pluck to record it. Apart from the revelation I thought I detected a sadness to the whole thing. In any case he seem a decent young fellow and I wish him well.

  • Gerry_ManderGerry_Mander Posts: 621
    There's also the golfing euphemism - a four ball ;-0
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    I wonder whether Tom Daley's self outing was partly or wholly caused by one of our esteemed newspapers preparing a scoop.

    Hhmmm ....
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Yes I think that is an accurate picture.

    The problem for the Tories of course is that moving toward UKIP supporters on the right means moving away from the centre ground, which further undermines Cameron's already shaky claim to be a moderniser and opens up space for Clegg to reassert his claim of equidistance from Labour and the Tories. I'm sure there's nothing he would like better than Tory moves toward UKIP.

    And UKIP can always outbid the Tories on the right because they are not burdened with the realities of government - they can promise to halt all immigration tomorrow, cut taxes, raise pensions etc etc safe in the knowledge that they are never likely to be in position to actually do any of these things.
    ..
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    Can everybody stop talking about Tom Daley . He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    I was away from username when the MORI issues index came out. Has there been any attempt to use that as a proxy for dis-satisfaction. Take five key indicators, maybe more, maybe less, and see how the aggregate tracks against time?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    antifrank said:

    @JackW I believe that Tom Daley is saying that while he is currently batting, he reserves the right in future to bring himself on as a bowler.

    Isn't it more that although he's currently playing for one club, he's retaining membership with a second?
  • Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited December 2013
    JackW said:

    I wonder whether Tom Daley's self outing was partly or wholly caused by one of our esteemed newspapers preparing a scoop.

    Hhmmm ....

    He could have probably obtained an injunction to prevent the media "outing" him, even after the issue of the Practice Direction designed to limit the grant of so-called superinjunctions. Recourse to the courts would certainly have been within his means.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    state_go_away said:

    He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!

    He's been World (senior and junior), European and Commonwealth champion.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    state_go_away said:

    Can everybody stop talking about Tom Daley . He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!

    He's very good at getting his name in the media though isn't he? If that was an Olympic sport he'd have a whole collection of gold medals by now.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Not surprising considering only about 50% of current Ukip voters are former Tories from 2010.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    I've just found out that Tom Daley updated his Twitter account this morning to state that he has something to say and it's not easy to admit.

    I for one am shocked and disgusted at what he has admitted.

    There is to be a second series of Splash.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:

    He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!

    He's been World (senior and junior), European and Commonwealth champion.
    Wow -come on if he wasnt good looking hardly anyone would know who is he let alone care about readign about him
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Tom Daley's story is the number one most read on the BBC news site right now, despite the BBC not giving the story undue prominence on the website. This is what the public are interested in right now.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    state_go_away said:

    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:

    He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!

    He's been World (senior and junior), European and Commonwealth champion.
    Wow -come on if he wasnt good looking hardly anyone would know who is he let alone care about readign about him
    Clearly being best in the world is just not good enough for you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    Honestly being heterosexual or homosexual isn't a binary choice.

    You can be both, concurrently, it's called being bi-sexual.

    Me, I'm tri-sexual.

    I'll try anything, I like to experiment. As my choice in footwear shows.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    On topic, the Tory leader in 2020 is going to have an easy job.

    They'll point a vote for UKIP let Ed become PM in 2015.

    Buggering up a chance of a referendum.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:

    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:

    He won a bronze medal at a home olympics FGS. HE is not a sporting icon and its embarrassing that we celebrate him as a sporting giant.
    Its likeBeckham mania again. Thought we had got over worshipping second or third best!

    He's been World (senior and junior), European and Commonwealth champion.
    Wow -come on if he wasnt good looking hardly anyone would know who is he let alone care about readign about him
    Clearly being best in the world is just not good enough for you.
    best in the world once at an obscure sport hardly anyone does. Who watches the world diving champs? When people watched , it was the Olympics and he came third ,which was ok and of course an achievment but it hardly rates the media attention does it. ? He is more celebrity than a sports star (like Beckham) and it frankly irritates me when sport and celebrity gets mixed up
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,155
    Off topic (though no one seems on it), UKIP Scotland have replaced Lord Monckton as their head with one Misty Thackeray - is that his porn star name?
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    tim said:

    It appears that the more the Tories pander to UKIP the more the Kippers hate them.
    This of course is a product of Cameron being seen as a snake oil selling fake.

    On the other hand the more Lynton Crosby tries to get Tory voters excited about immigration the more Lab and LD voters are prepared to vote tactically to keep a nasty Tory party out.

    The more the Tories *pretend* to pander to Ukip.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    state_go_away said:


    best in the world once at an obscure sport hardly anyone does

    It might pale in comparison to your achievements but it's more than a match for a lot of athletes.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    Is being bisexual the 'in' thing to be nowadays? I just wonder because I am sure 20 years ago many trendies were saying you had to one or the other? Has politically correct thinking changed?
    Before you say i am going on about our esteemed bronze medalist I am making a general point that would have been made anyway, so there!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    state_go_away said:

    Is being bisexual the 'in' thing to be nowadays? I just wonder because I am sure 20 years ago many trendies were saying you had to one or the other? Has politically correct thinking changed?
    Before you say i am going on about our esteemed bronze medalist I am making a general point that would have been made anyway, so there!!

    Being bi is so 1990s

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Davey still trying to justify his lack of intervention over green taxes. Useless waste of space.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    Neil said:

    state_go_away said:


    best in the world once at an obscure sport hardly anyone does

    It might pale in comparison to your achievements but it's more than a match for a lot of athletes.
    Tai Waffingdon is also a british world champion, but do you know who he is? C'mon the reason Tom Daley is all over the TV and internet is not because he is a sporting giant. He is a celeb basically
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    Am I alone in finding it depressing that we are even still interested in the sexual orientation of an althlete (or anyone else for that matter)?

    Whilst I agree with antifrank that he has been brave to announce the relationship I really did think we had got past this nonsense. When is this not going to be news?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    On topic (its got novelty value) does this perhaps suggest that at least at a tactical level the Labour vote is not quite as solid as we had been led to believe?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited December 2013
    anothernick said:

    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Yes I think that is an accurate picture.

    The problem for the Tories of course is that moving toward UKIP supporters on the right means moving away from the centre ground, which further undermines Cameron's already shaky claim to be a moderniser and opens up space for Clegg to reassert his claim of equidistance from Labour and the Tories. I'm sure there's nothing he would like better than Tory moves toward UKIP.
    ..
    The LD's numbers have been flat since late 2010. I don't think swing voters are paying any attention to Mr Clegg's waffle.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    I am not sure Cameron is 'moving towards UKIP' as a policy he is just being practical and sensible if we are talking about the immigraton benefit proposals which seemingly is supported by all three main parties
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ed Davey having a cracker in the HoC....

    I think he might have hit his own limits.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    An interesting diving fact is that my grandfather was the English diving champion in 1930. He achieved this despite only having one leg. The story in our family is that he did not get selected to compete in the Olympics in 1932 because it was ruled that it was not possible to know whether his feet were together when he hit the water. Don't know if it's true or not. He died before I was born and I have never been able to find out anything about him on the internet. Here's a photo of him coming off the old top board at Highgate swimming pond:

    http://www.iam-magazine.com/files/GW.JPG
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    TGOHF said:

    Ed Davey having a cracker in the HoC....

    I think he might have hit his own limits.

    It is a difficult one for 'Canute' Miliband. These are real cuts (albeit to an increase), and what looks like a much-needed reorganisation of the levies Labour shoved onto our bills.

    Whilst he still has to explain how he will manage energy wholesale prices.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Oh my aching sides.

    Maria_MillerMP ‏@Maria_MillerMP 8m
    RT: @Number10gov - @PremierLeague & Chinese Super League partnership for #football skills and training http://ow.ly/rmicF #UKChina

    Is that the best we have to offer. God help us.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    anotherDave said:

    anothernick said:

    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Yes I think that is an accurate picture.

    The problem for the Tories of course is that moving toward UKIP supporters on the right means moving away from the centre ground, which further undermines Cameron's already shaky claim to be a moderniser and opens up space for Clegg to reassert his claim of equidistance from Labour and the Tories. I'm sure there's nothing he would like better than Tory moves toward UKIP.
    ..
    The LD's numbers have been flat since late 2010. I don't think swing voters are paying any attention to Mr Clegg's waffle.

    Recent local by-election results (not always a reliable guide of course but they are real votes) suggest that the Lib Dem performance is patchy - very good result in Kirklees recently but terrible one in Lambeth last week. And of course there was Eastleigh. The Lib Dems are not out of the game and will certainly exploit any Tory move to the right to encourage tactical voting in seats where they are the incumbent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    SouthamObserver said:

    he did not get selected to compete in the Olympics in 1932 because it was ruled that it was not possible to know whether his feet were together when he hit the water.

    I think I can confidently say they were not.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I think he might have hit his own limits.

    Quite how Davey can command a stonking majority in Kingston and Surbiton is a bit of a conundrum to me.

    Bet its less stonking next time around.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    anothernick said:

    anotherDave said:

    anothernick said:

    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Yes I think that is an accurate picture.

    The problem for the Tories of course is that moving toward UKIP supporters on the right means moving away from the centre ground, which further undermines Cameron's already shaky claim to be a moderniser and opens up space for Clegg to reassert his claim of equidistance from Labour and the Tories. I'm sure there's nothing he would like better than Tory moves toward UKIP.
    ..
    The LD's numbers have been flat since late 2010. I don't think swing voters are paying any attention to Mr Clegg's waffle.

    Recent local by-election results (not always a reliable guide of course but they are real votes) suggest that the Lib Dem performance is patchy - very good result in Kirklees recently but terrible one in Lambeth last week. And of course there was Eastleigh. The Lib Dems are not out of the game and will certainly exploit any Tory move to the right to encourage tactical voting in seats where they are the incumbent.
    The May local elections also show LD support to be flat.

    2011: 15%
    2012: 16%
    2013: 14%

    Eastleigh is often cited as an example of LD support "holding up". The LD vote in Eastleigh fell from 47% > 32%.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    DavidL said:

    Am I alone in finding it depressing that we are even still interested in the sexual orientation of an althlete (or anyone else for that matter)?

    Whilst I agree with antifrank that he has been brave to announce the relationship I really did think we had got past this nonsense. When is this not going to be news?

    Have you forgotten the hyperbole when Gay Marriage was being debated in the House of Commons?

    One of the LGBT forums I frequent think he may inadvertently become the face of gay marriage.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Poor sods

    Quite. From the Long March to the long ball.....

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.
    anotherDave said:

    anothernick said:

    anotherDave said:

    anothernick said:

    david_herdson said:

    Interesting but I think we're comparing apples with pears here.

    There are very few UKIP-identifiers i.e. people who say that UKIP is their natural party of choice. By contrast, there are many Labour-identifiers. On the other hand, there are lots of swing / floating voters whose current VI is UKIP.

    Most UKIP voters have made a choice to move to that party relativel recently, often because of disillusionment with the other parties. They know their candidate will frequently have little chance of winning but they don't much care. Appeals to tactical voting therefore won't work. However, that doesn't mean these voters can't be reached by the Tories; it's just that they have to be won back positively rather than negatively i.e. they won't come back to stop Labour but they might come back if the Conservative package is sufficiently attractive.

    Put another way, the opinion of the Tories will always be low among UKIP voters precisely for the reasons that they are UKIP voters. As soon as the Tories (or Labour or the Lib Dems) become worth voting for, they'll stop being UKIP voters.

    Yes I think that is an accurate picture.

    The problem for the Tories of course is that moving toward UKIP supporters on the right means moving away from the centre ground, which further undermines Cameron's already shaky claim to be a moderniser and opens up space for Clegg to reassert his claim of equidistance from Labour and the Tories. I'm sure there's nothing he would like better than Tory moves toward UKIP.
    ..
    The LD's numbers have been flat since late 2010. I don't think swing voters are paying any attention to Mr Clegg's waffle.

    Recent local by-election results (not always a reliable guide of course but they are real votes) suggest that the Lib Dem performance is patchy - very good result in Kirklees recently but terrible one in Lambeth last week. And of course there was Eastleigh. The Lib Dems are not out of the game and will certainly exploit any Tory move to the right to encourage tactical voting in seats where they are the incumbent.
    The May local elections also show LD support to be flat.

    2011: 15%
    2012: 16%
    2013: 14%

    Eastleigh is often cited as an example of LD support "holding up". The LD vote in Eastleigh fell from 47% > 32%.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited December 2013
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    While English football is no worldbeater (and the other home nations even worse) the Premier League leads the world.

    Liverpool are sponsored by a bank that trades only outside the UK, because that is where the sponsors customers are. Even lowly Leicester City has a far eastern following and sponsor.

    Is it the best football league in the world? From a technical point of view maybe not, but it is the one yhat sells around the world.
    tim said:

    I thought imposing opium on the Chinese was bad enough, but now this

    "The Premier League and British Council are also set to announce radical plans to further roll out their Premier Skills coaching and referee training initiative development with the aim of reaching over 1.2 million Chinese students by 2016."

    Poor sods

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited December 2013

    FWIW I expect the Lib Dem vote to collapse in seats where they are third and also in some urban areas where they benefited from anti-Iraq war votes - Brent, Haringey - but it will hold up in areas where UKIP is strong in the more rural/suburban South - like Eastleigh. They could score around the 15% mark nationally and still hold on to perhaps 40 seats.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    The Lib Dems are also so welcome in London.
    http://chrissmithlibdem.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/i-am-not-a-liberal-democrat/
    "I didn’t come into politics for all this grief, these unfounded insults, this satanic branding. OK I dish it out and I expect to get it back – fair enough. But how can we fight against other parties when we still have this Matterhorn of loathing to battle against? A loathing that was not generated by us in Greenwich .......... I am a democrat, I am a liberal, I am a social democrat. If what I heard in the cafe is what the electorate perceive a Liberal Democrat to be, then I am not a Liberal Democrat."

    Re: Ed Davey - he also has the burden of a local disgraced ex council Leader to cope with.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Maria Hutchings was anti EU, and actually in line with a fair number of UKIP policies: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278917/Maria-Hutchings-The-message-candidate-Daves-pinning-Eastleigh-election-hopes-on.html

    So splitting the Right wing anti EU vote led to the election of a pro EU Lib Dem following a pro EU manifesto.

    I expect UKIP to do the same in May 2015.
    anotherDave said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    foxinsoxuk said:

    While English football is no worldbeater (and the other home nations even worse) the Premier League leads the world.

    Liverpool are sponsored by a bank that trades only outside the UK, because that is where the sponsors customers are. Even lowly Leicester City has a far eastern following and sponsor.

    Is it the best football league in the world? From a technical point of view maybe not, but it is the one yhat sells around the world.

    tim said:

    I thought imposing opium on the Chinese was bad enough, but now this

    "The Premier League and British Council are also set to announce radical plans to further roll out their Premier Skills coaching and referee training initiative development with the aim of reaching over 1.2 million Chinese students by 2016."

    Poor sods

    Not sure the PM should be getting involved in football . The EPL tends to sell itself , in that it does not need a foreign governments signature on a contract as such as individuals buy into it. It also has a skewed earnings distribution with a few people earnign millions from it and nobody else getting anything
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Did the Mail story this morning get any coverage on here?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2516745/I-survive-500-week-benefits-says-Birmingham-single-mother-eight.html

    They know their audience well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    DavidL said:

    Am I alone in finding it depressing that we are even still interested in the sexual orientation of an althlete (or anyone else for that matter)?

    Whilst I agree with antifrank that he has been brave to announce the relationship I really did think we had got past this nonsense. When is this not going to be news?

    Have you forgotten the hyperbole when Gay Marriage was being debated in the House of Commons?

    One of the LGBT forums I frequent think he may inadvertently become the face of gay marriage.

    No, that depressed me too.

    If he gets married good luck to him.

    I really don't want to know why you would be on such fora (I note it is plural) either.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    anothernick said:


    FWIW I expect the Lib Dem vote to collapse in seats where they are third and also in some urban areas where they benefited from anti-Iraq war votes - Brent, Haringey - but it will hold up in areas where UKIP is strong in the more rural/suburban South - like Eastleigh. They could score around the 15% mark nationally and still hold on to perhaps 40 seats.

    I think LD hopes are more tied to the Conservative vote falling than their own holding up.

    The LD-Con marginals are going to interesting to watch. UKIP seem to draw the majority of their support from those two parties, so there should be lots of close results.

    I'd expect the LDs to get slightly less than their local election results in 2015: 10-14%.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    tim said:

    taffys said:

    Poor sods

    Quite. From the Long March to the long ball.....

    Enslaved by the Gang of Four Four Two
    Tim, it might be a case of grandmother-sucking-eggs, but this week's Economist has a (for me) interesting article on the use of technology in winemaking.

    It's in the brilliant 'Technology Quarterly' section, or at the link below:

    http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21590767-high-tech-winemaking-technology-has-already-made-poor-plonk-thing-past?zid=319&ah=17af09b0281b01505c226b1e574f5cc1
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''They know their audience well''.

    How do they trawl for people like this I wonder? Its pretty cynical stuff. I bet the journos went in there pretending to be 'on her side'.

  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited December 2013
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Maria Hutchings was anti EU, and actually in line with a fair number of UKIP policies: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278917/Maria-Hutchings-The-message-candidate-Daves-pinning-Eastleigh-election-hopes-on.html

    So splitting the Right wing anti EU vote led to the election of a pro EU Lib Dem following a pro EU manifesto.

    I expect UKIP to do the same in May 2015.


    anotherDave said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    Given Hutchings came third in the by-election surely in Eastleigh it will be the Tories splitting the UKIP/ Eurosceptic vote now?
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited December 2013
    anothernick said:


    FWIW I expect the Lib Dem vote to collapse in seats where they are third and also in some urban areas where they benefited from anti-Iraq war votes - Brent, Haringey - but it will hold up in areas where UKIP is strong in the more rural/suburban South - like Eastleigh. They could score around the 15% mark nationally and still hold on to perhaps 40 seats.

    In 4 out of 10 of the seats they are defending the Conservatives will not be their main opponent. In 5 (or more) of the seats they are defending against the Conservatives, the LD MP is retiring. Hence why I am puzzled about the assumption that the LDs will keep 40+ of their 57 seats.

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    JackW said:

    Has anyone looked in on Messr Loony of this parish following the shock announcements that His Holiness is somewhat of the religious inclination and young Tom Daley is vaguely batting for the other first eleven ?!?

    I'm not quite sure what that mixture of metaphors is supposed to mean, but I'm very surprised at Tom's news. He's always been open about fancying Cheryl Cole and Pippa Middleton and Little Mix (a girlgroup from X Factor) and even one of the American competitors at the Beijing Olympics when he was only 14. I hope he hasn't felt any pressure to make his announcement from any tabloid blackmail or anything.

    In the previous thread someone said I might be exploding. Why would I explode? I've never even fancied Tom Daley, even though he's very handsome. He's doubly lucky because he is able to appreciate the beauty of his diving competitor Iván García.
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited December 2013
    What would also be interesting is in those few marginals (Medway Towns, Dover, Sheppey, Thanet Boston etc) where UKIP are in play whether there would be much movement between UKIP and Labour or Labour and UKIP to stop the Tories. Given the levels of former Labour support joining UKIP I'd be surprised if there wasn't some tactical voting
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Maria Hutchings was anti EU, and actually in line with a fair number of UKIP policies: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278917/Maria-Hutchings-The-message-candidate-Daves-pinning-Eastleigh-election-hopes-on.html

    So splitting the Right wing anti EU vote led to the election of a pro EU Lib Dem following a pro EU manifesto.

    I expect UKIP to do the same in May 2015.


    anotherDave said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    I do not think the parliamentary Conservative Party is anti-EU. This government has continued to pass powers to the EU.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cut it any way you like. There is a LibDem pro EU MP in Eastleigh, because the anti EU vote was split.
    smithersjones2013 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Maria Hutchings was anti EU, and actually in line with a fair number of UKIP policies: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278917/Maria-Hutchings-The-message-candidate-Daves-pinning-Eastleigh-election-hopes-on.html

    So splitting the Right wing anti EU vote led to the election of a pro EU Lib Dem following a pro EU manifesto.

    I expect UKIP to do the same in May 2015.


    anotherDave said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    Given Hutchings came third in the by-election surely in Eastleigh it will be the Tories splitting the UKIP vote now?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    DavidL said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    DavidL said:

    Am I alone in finding it depressing that we are even still interested in the sexual orientation of an althlete (or anyone else for that matter)?

    Whilst I agree with antifrank that he has been brave to announce the relationship I really did think we had got past this nonsense. When is this not going to be news?

    Have you forgotten the hyperbole when Gay Marriage was being debated in the House of Commons?

    One of the LGBT forums I frequent think he may inadvertently become the face of gay marriage.

    No, that depressed me too.

    If he gets married good luck to him.

    I really don't want to know why you would be on such fora (I note it is plural) either.

    I have a lot of gay friends and frequent the village a lot.

    My gay friends say I'm an honorary gay.

    I've been confusing gaydars since 1995.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @taffys
    What a stupid bint exposing her blameless kids in a national newspaper like that.
    Her life's ambition is probably to get her 15 minutes of infamy on Jeremy Kyle.
    taffys said:

    ''They know their audience well''.

    How do they trawl for people like this I wonder? Its pretty cynical stuff. I bet the journos went in there pretending to be 'on her side'.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    smithersjones2013 said:

    What would also be interesting is in those few marginals (Medway Towns, Dover, Sheppey) where UKIP are in play whether there would be much movement between UKIP and Labour or Labour and UKIP to stop the Tories. Given the levels of former Labour support joining UKIP I'd be surprised if there wasn't some tactical voting

    If UKIP become seen as the party of the working class / Labour become seen as Guardianistas we'd get lots of surprises. The 2014 locals should show us if that has any legs.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    I have hopes for the baby. It is pretty clear from the expression on his face that he knows he is being set up.
  • smithersjones2013smithersjones2013 Posts: 740
    edited December 2013
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Cut it any way you like. There is a LibDem pro EU MP in Eastleigh, because the anti EU vote was split.

    smithersjones2013 said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Maria Hutchings was anti EU, and actually in line with a fair number of UKIP policies: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278917/Maria-Hutchings-The-message-candidate-Daves-pinning-Eastleigh-election-hopes-on.html

    So splitting the Right wing anti EU vote led to the election of a pro EU Lib Dem following a pro EU manifesto.

    I expect UKIP to do the same in May 2015.


    anotherDave said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Indeed, the Eastleigh byelection was a classic example of how UKIPers can put a pro EU MP into parliament.

    By not voting for the Conservative candidate? The majority of the parliamentary Conservative Party are also "pro-EU".

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8847123/EU-referendum-how-the-MPs-voted.html
    Given Hutchings came third in the by-election surely in Eastleigh it will be the Tories splitting the UKIP vote now?
    It's no different to the split in the left that occurred in the 1980's. That's what happens when either of the primary political constituencies is mismanaged. The big difference now is the pygmy who now leads the Labour Party. One thing for sure. He's no Thatcher!

    Furthermore given Cameron's professed commitment to the EU, whilst Hutchings might have been anti-EU herself she was standing for a pro-EU party. So arguably the real Eurosceptic vote was never split
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    anotherDave said:

    The 2014 locals should show us if that has any legs.

    We already know UKIP will do well in 2014 because of the Euro elections. That's not a particularly good pointer to strong GE performance.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @DavidL

    The sad faces of wronged Mail readers

    That baby should win a prize for its sad face.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    tim said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    tim said:

    taffys said:

    Poor sods

    Quite. From the Long March to the long ball.....

    Enslaved by the Gang of Four Four Two
    Tim, it might be a case of grandmother-sucking-eggs, but this week's Economist has a (for me) interesting article on the use of technology in winemaking.

    It's in the brilliant 'Technology Quarterly' section, or at the link below:

    http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21590767-high-tech-winemaking-technology-has-already-made-poor-plonk-thing-past?zid=319&ah=17af09b0281b01505c226b1e574f5cc1
    Something as simple as picking overnight, in conjunction with cooled fermentation transformed whole regions.
    White wines from Rueda in Spain are almost all uniformly good and brilliant vfm for that reason
    A £6 bottle of plonk is generally as good as a £20 one to my palette. My parents go to wine tastings and call me a heathen. I'm not sure if that's because of the wine. ;-)

    Do you have a view on automated pickers, technical closures (and I had no idea they existed - a screw cap is just an effing screw cap), or reverse osmosis in fine wines? Do these techniques somehow spoil anything?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,963
    Good evening, everyone.

    Little piece here about apparently old-fashioned language:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25185725

    I rather like these. Still use rapscallion, whippersnapper and nincompoop.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,025
    old_labour said:

    @DavidL

    The sad faces of wronged Mail readers

    That baby should win a prize for its sad face.

    What an extraordinary website. You really can have too much time on your hands can't you?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Neil said:

    anotherDave said:

    The 2014 locals should show us if that has any legs.

    We already know UKIP will do well in 2014 because of the Euro elections. That's not a particularly good pointer to strong GE performance.
    Show us if they can challenge Labour in Labour voting areas then. That seems to be something UKIP are trying to do.

    http://youtu.be/RWLuykXWmbM?t=2m30s
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    good article about a korean economist dude

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/27a2027e-5698-11e3-8cca-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2mL05SupO
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    old_labour said:

    @DavidL

    The sad faces of wronged Mail readers

    That baby should win a prize for its sad face.

    what about this one ?

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/28/article-0-04B70B62000005DC-977_233x423.jpg
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    MrJones said:

    good article about a korean economist dude

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/27a2027e-5698-11e3-8cca-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2mL05SupO

    Thanks for that. New fodder for the books-to-read list. :-)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The crying woman outside the wire, holding a guide to Auschwitz?
    TGOHF said:

    old_labour said:

    @DavidL

    The sad faces of wronged Mail readers

    That baby should win a prize for its sad face.

    what about this one ?

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/04/28/article-0-04B70B62000005DC-977_233x423.jpg
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    JosiasJessop said:

    tim said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    tim said:

    taffys said:

    Poor sods

    Quite. From the Long March to the long ball.....

    Enslaved by the Gang of Four Four Two
    Tim, it might be a case of grandmother-sucking-eggs, but this week's Economist has a (for me) interesting article on the use of technology in winemaking.

    It's in the brilliant 'Technology Quarterly' section, or at the link below:

    http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21590767-high-tech-winemaking-technology-has-already-made-poor-plonk-thing-past?zid=319&ah=17af09b0281b01505c226b1e574f5cc1
    Something as simple as picking overnight, in conjunction with cooled fermentation transformed whole regions.
    White wines from Rueda in Spain are almost all uniformly good and brilliant vfm for that reason
    A £6 bottle of plonk is generally as good as a £20 one to my palette.
    It's for drinking, not painting with.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    A new party, Class War, has so far selected 9 candidates:

    Bermondsey & Old Southwark: Ian Bone
    Chingford & Woodford Green: Janice Dick
    Croydon South: Jon Bigger
    Hackney North & Stoke Newington: Tim Wells
    Hackney South & Shoreditch: Cormac Mackervaie
    Hornsey & Wood Green: Mark Richmond
    Islington North: Peter Farrell
    Maidenhead: Joe Wilcox
    Witney: Warren Draper

    http://ianbone.wordpress.com/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Ishmael_X said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    tim said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    tim said:

    taffys said:

    Poor sods

    Quite. From the Long March to the long ball.....

    Enslaved by the Gang of Four Four Two
    Tim, it might be a case of grandmother-sucking-eggs, but this week's Economist has a (for me) interesting article on the use of technology in winemaking.

    It's in the brilliant 'Technology Quarterly' section, or at the link below:

    http://www.economist.com/news/technology-quarterly/21590767-high-tech-winemaking-technology-has-already-made-poor-plonk-thing-past?zid=319&ah=17af09b0281b01505c226b1e574f5cc1
    Something as simple as picking overnight, in conjunction with cooled fermentation transformed whole regions.
    White wines from Rueda in Spain are almost all uniformly good and brilliant vfm for that reason
    A £6 bottle of plonk is generally as good as a £20 one to my palette.
    It's for drinking, not painting with.

    Unless you drink too much.

    Ahem.

    I was once in a restaurant car of a train on the Foxfield Railway with some friends. On the other side of the carriage was a baby being held in its mother's arms. The baby, a good distance away, yet managed to projectile vomit what looked like Ribena all over my trousers.

    It was like something out of a horror film.

    I wondered if I should have sold my trousers to the Tate Modern. "Ribena et pantalon au infant 1998"
  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Good decision by Tom Daley.But bad for endorsements I am afraid!
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited December 2013
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Off topic (though no one seems on it), UKIP Scotland have replaced Lord Monckton as their head with one Misty Thackeray - is that his porn star name?

    :)

    My porn star name is Fritzy Bramdean. I could have made a fortune.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    BBC in West kick off with EU threatening to bugger up the Hinkley Point deal.
This discussion has been closed.