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  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    Referring to Eastbourne:

    ""Cllr Troy Tester ‏@CllrTroyTester 28 Nov

    Stephen Lloyd reselected as Lib Dem candidate for the 2015 general election by an overwhelming majority. Well done Stephen"


    twitter.com/CllrTroyTester/status/406147911027019776
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    See, democracy sucks sometimes

    electionista ‏@electionista 54s

    Croatia - first results show #referendum to ban same-sex marriage has passed with 64.6%

    Kick them out of the EU.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited December 2013
    People expect Boris to act like an out of touch twit from time to time.

    The damage will be minimal.

    He'll be more worried he ends up like Ken, a spent force who's cheeky chappy act and appeal had faded with time and it just didn't sell anymore.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    As a boy Boris Johnson said he wanted to be "World King" and then he ends up being Mayor of London, which is pretty much the same thing.
  • Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited December 2013
    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,808
    TOPPING said:

    tim said:



    I thought it was Osborne who was distancing himself?

    "What would Maggie do on housing? She would recognise the squeeze on her core voters, their desperate shortage of homes; she would revive her great mission of a property-owning democracy and encourage the creation of hundreds of thousands of new homes in which people had at least a share of the equity themselves; and she would remember the lessons of Baldwin and Macmillan and Thatcher – that Tories are most successful when they help middle Britain to find the housing they need. "

    At last.

    A back-to-basics Tory policy you can get behind, tim.
    You don't hear Tories talking about property-owning democracy so much these days. They're more interested in the buy-to-let democracy. Gives better returns.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046

    TOPPING said:

    tim said:



    I thought it was Osborne who was distancing himself?

    "What would Maggie do on housing? She would recognise the squeeze on her core voters, their desperate shortage of homes; she would revive her great mission of a property-owning democracy and encourage the creation of hundreds of thousands of new homes in which people had at least a share of the equity themselves; and she would remember the lessons of Baldwin and Macmillan and Thatcher – that Tories are most successful when they help middle Britain to find the housing they need. "

    At last.

    A back-to-basics Tory policy you can get behind, tim.
    You don't hear Tories talking about property-owning democracy so much these days. They're more interested in the buy-to-let democracy. Gives better returns.
    I think Boris still qualifies as a Tory.
  • Can we stop talking about the football please.

    Or the morning thread maybe about electoral reform.

    Kind regards

    The Guest Editor and Liverpool fan.

    Like you're going to get much sympathy about football results this season from a Norwich fan. And we're just in time for the reaction on Wednesday.
  • Paddy Power - Referendum On A United Ireland?
    - Applies to whether or not a referendum on Northern Ireland to become part of a fully united Ireland is put to the people of Northern Ireland by the end of 2020. Must be an official referendum and held by the British government.

    Yes 9/2
    No 1/8

    Even if you think that No is the winning bet, it is hard to see why on earth any punter would lock up their cash for over 7 years for a pathetic return of 1/8.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    SeanT said:

    The chances of the Tories choosing him as leader are slight, and dependent on endless improbabilities all turning out right.

    Slight but not impossible. Regardless, he would certainly have more than enough clout with the grassroots to be a kingmaker of sorts and that would appeal to him. From thence to whatever juicy posting he wished if all went well.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited December 2013
    antifrank said:

    Can we stop talking about the football please.

    Or the morning thread maybe about electoral reform.

    Kind regards

    The Guest Editor and Liverpool fan.

    Like you're going to get much sympathy about football results this season from a Norwich fan. And we're just in time for the reaction on Wednesday.
    No Sturridge, no Couthino, it was like to back to the dark days of pre January 2013.

    I'm backing Norwich to win on Wednesday.

    11/1 with Paddy Power
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    Can we stop talking about the football please.

    Or the morning thread maybe about electoral reform.

    Kind regards

    The Guest Editor and Liverpool fan.

    It's karma at work - cosmic retribution for that Theresa Will gag.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    HYUFD said:

    stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.

    I can't speak for New York or Paris but the economic argument for an independent London is a hard one to refute. London would more than hold its own economically as an independent state possibly outside the EU.

    No reason why people living outside London couldn't continue to work inside London but a lot of the "highest skilled workforce" no longer commutes from the Home Counties but lives and works along the river or in Docklands and in any case many of them aren't UK nationals.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,320
    Just catching up with today's earlier thread and a few observations.
    David Herdson's excellent article yesterday morning really nailed the problems for the SNP and the Yes campaign after the launch of their White Paper. Absolutely no surprises in the polling reaction to the White Paper launch either, and I am feeling ever more confident that there will be a comfortable No result come the vote next year.

    And the somewhat rattled and bad tempered reaction of some Nats on here today following the launch of the White Paper is another entirely predictable outcome. There was a lot of high hopes riding on that White Paper, with many in the Yes camp desperately praying it would manage to pull a game changing rabbit out of the hat and thus confound the Nationalists critics. But as David Herdson noted, it came across as more of an SNP Holyrood election manifesto than a serious prospectus for Independence.

    The Independence White Paper launch turned out to be a real damp squib, and it hasn't been the game changer that its supporters had hoped it might be. Its simple hardened already made up minds on both sides of the debate, and this in turn is going to lead to yet more angry and noisy bickering of the kind we are already increasing seeing online.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited December 2013
    Ishmael_X said:

    Can we stop talking about the football please.

    Or the morning thread maybe about electoral reform.

    Kind regards

    The Guest Editor and Liverpool fan.

    It's karma at work - cosmic retribution for that Theresa Will gag.

    I blame John Rentoul.

    Though I'm still waiting for the time I'm editing the site, and there's a big scandal involving Ed Balls.

    The headline will be

    "Balls deep in trouble"
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    Referring to UKIP:

    "Jack Duffin ‏@jackduffin 28 Nov

    Been elected parliamentary candidate for Uxbridge &South Ruislip thank you to the local members. Roll on 2014 locals then the GE in 2015"


    twitter.com/jackduffin/status/406172571890380800
  • The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,963
    edited December 2013

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
  • SeanT said:

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    Right now I'd say the odds on Yes winning are, realistically, about 10/1 against. And no, I'm not offering them personally.
    That is a shame.
  • antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    As a classicist, I'm in favour of us returning back to city-states, like Sparta.

    On this topic, Vince Cable has recognised Sheffield's brilliance and future role as the major city of the UK

    Business Bank to be based in Sheffield

    Vince Cable to give an extra £250m to Britain's Business Bank and move its headquarters to Yorkshire, The Telegraph can reveal.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10486762/Business-Bank-to-be-based-in-Sheffield.html
  • SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.

    You cannot divorce city from state.



    What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @TSE

    Today you must have been to hull and back !!

    Titters ....

    Copyright - Del Trotter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    stodge London has always attracted migrants as with most other major cities, but I doubt most commuters would have to go through customs and take their passports to work everyday. In any case, as for being outside the EU, London is probably the most pro-EU region in the country. There may well emerge an independence for London movement, but it would probably get about as many votes as the Cornish Independence Party, Mebyon Kernow

    SeanT Exactly, moving the Royal Family to Windsor and Parliament back to Winchester would also destroy much of the very essence of London and its role
  • SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.

    You cannot divorce city from state.
    The capital of Anglo-Saxon England (post-unification) was Winchester. It was the Normans who moved it to London.
  • JackW said:

    @TSE

    Today you must have been to hull and back !!

    Titters ....

    Copyright - Del Trotter.

    Grrr.

    It was embarrasing, it was like Liverpool were being managed by Charles Edward Stuart, and Hull were managed by The Duke of Cumberland
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    @TSE

    Today you must have been to hull and back !!

    Titters ....

    Copyright - Del Trotter.

    Grrr.

    It was embarrasing, it was like Liverpool were being managed by Charles Edward Stuart, and Hull were managed by The Duke of Cumberland
    However I feel Jacobite Liverpool will top Hanovarian Hull come May 2015.

  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.

    I can't speak for New York or Paris but the economic argument for an independent London is a hard one to refute. London would more than hold its own economically as an independent state possibly outside the EU.

    No reason why people living outside London couldn't continue to work inside London but a lot of the "highest skilled workforce" no longer commutes from the Home Counties but lives and works along the river or in Docklands and in any case many of them aren't UK nationals.
    What exactly are the benefits of this which would remote outweigh the huge disruption and damage caused in transition.

    Just because something could work if it were already so does not mean it would be a good idea to switch to that state.
  • Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    What volume is moving the market ?

  • JackW said:

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    What volume is moving the market ?

    GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    So the status quo then?
    antifrank said:

    SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.

    You cannot divorce city from state.



    What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
  • Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    I think there have been a couple of polls that have completed their fieldwork, but are yet to be published (because I think the people commissioning them aren't weekend newspapers)
  • So the status quo then?

    antifrank said:

    SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.

    You cannot divorce city from state.



    What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
    Touché.

  • Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    I think there have been a couple of polls that have completed their fieldwork, but are yet to be published (because I think the people commissioning them aren't weekend newspapers)
    They might never be published.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    What volume is moving the market ?

    GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
    It's not a lot of cash to move a market by around a point at this stage.

    I'm not suggesting it here but market manipulation to gather a few headlines and a little momentum is not uncommon in the US.

    Broadly speaking YES has it all to do. Not impossible and "events, dear boy events" may yet intervene but clearly the odds presently strongly favour the Unionist cause.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    London isn't quite as wonderful as people make out. Very soon it will be a city with a complete absence of middle-class people, just rich and poor.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,133
    edited December 2013
    I have as much chance of becoming Prime Minister as of being decapitated by a frisbee or of finding Elvis.
    - Boris quoted in the Daily Mail, July 2003.
  • JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    What volume is moving the market ?

    GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
    It's not a lot of cash to move a market by around a point at this stage.

    I'm not suggesting it here but market manipulation to gather a few headlines and a little momentum is not uncommon in the US.

    Broadly speaking YES has it all to do. Not impossible and "events, dear boy events" may yet intervene but clearly the odds presently strongly favour the Unionist cause.

    Err... correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot recall Betfair prices ever forming the basis of any headline whatsoever. Only geeks like me are remotely interested in them, and they have zero effect on public opinion.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    edited December 2013
    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2013
    Writing on-topically, but trivially, I'll admit to never particularly liking Boris. To me he sounds like he's got 24 hour morning mouth. But I do admire his head of hair and the way he cycled his bulk 100 miles over hill & dale around London recently, slow but determined. Such determination may well extend to his politics, in which case maybe some people had better be wary.
    He sometimes does say and write things to get one thinking. I guess that's what court jesters had licence to do?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    AndyJS said:

    London isn't quite as wonderful as people make out. Very soon it will be a city with a complete absence of middle-class people, just rich and poor.

    Erm, no it won't. There are plenty of thriving middle class areas in London and there will continue to be. Explosive price rises in the very centre of London are not the same as the entire capital flushing out the middle class. Nothing like it. London is a very big place.
  • When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.
    - Samuel Johnson, 1777.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I agree. Boris has an undoubted charm, but would be better suited to being Mayor and then party Chairman rebuilding the party in the country. If anything could get people turning out on the rubber chicken circuit on a cold January evening, it would be to have Boris as after dinner speaker.

    , on
    Toms said:

    Writing on-topically, but trivially, I'll admit to never particularly liking Boris. To me he sounds like he's got 24 hour morning mouth. But I do admire his head of hair and the way he cycled his bulk 100 miles over hill & dale around London recently, slow but determined. Such determination may well extend to his politics, in which case maybe some people had better be wary.
    He sometimes does say and write things to get one thinking. I guess that's what court jesters had licence to do?

  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591
    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
  • maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.
    - Samuel Johnson, 1777.

    ...when the metropolis already had a population of around 800-odd thousand. Must have been seriously smelly and unhealthy (thereby curtailing one's life should he/she be tired of it). A big thank you to the Victorians for their sewerage system and water supply.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    There are also pieces of paper saying Manchester is not in Lancashire which mean equally little.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,133
    edited December 2013
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    There are also pieces of paper saying Manchester is not in Lancashire which mean equally little.
    Who cares? I was able to vote for Boris in 2008 and again in 2012, despite living in IG2.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    There are also pieces of paper saying Manchester is not in Lancashire which mean equally little.
    Successful cities grow.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Bobajob said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2513653/Sexual-violence-gang-neighbourhoods-like-war-zones-girls-young-11-groomed-raped.html

    "Britain's worst gang hit neighbourhoods are seeing levels of sexual violence as bad as in war zones, it was claimed today."
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,916
    Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey
  • HYUFD said:

    Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey

    Administratively they are part of London.

    Is Kaliningrad still in East Prussia?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,591

    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    There are also pieces of paper saying Manchester is not in Lancashire which mean equally little.
    Who cares? I was able to vote for Boris in 2008 and again in 2012, despite living in IG2.
    Obviously no one cares - I was just a little irratated by someone running around calling others bumpkins like some big city big shot, when they actually live in a dull suburb miles away from the areas anyone else wants to be.
  • antifrank said:

    SeanT said:

    antifrank said:

    The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.

    But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.

    You cannot divorce city from state.



    What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
    It already does - that's the problem.
  • They tell me that London goes beyond zone 1. Not that I have yet verified this surprising assertion.
  • antifrank said:

    They tell me that London goes beyond zone 1. Not that I have yet verified this surprising assertion.

    Antifrank, I assure there are plenty of London railway stations outside Zone 1 - I've been to all 661 stations in the Oystercard area :)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sir George Young to retire at the 2015 GE :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25180205
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Bobajob said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
    I love London whenever I visit it. It is dynamic, fast-paced, and there is so much to see and do. Truly all of life is there. And it contains three of my favourite walks - the Thames Path (both banks), and the Regent's Canal.

    At least, I love it until I have to travel in rush hour. Then I realise why I ran screaming from the place. ;-)
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    David Baddiel and David Suchet both had ancestors from the Kaliningrad area.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford.
    - Samuel Johnson, 1777.

    Samuel Johnson - one of Staffordshire's most famous sons, along with David Garrick and Josiah Wedgwood.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    HYUFD said:

    Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey

    Pretty sure all of those are actually part of London, but don't have London postcodes, which is confusing.

    Still, even postal London is massive - goes out as far as Epping Forest on the green belt.
    http://geoffbilbrough.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/london_postcodes.png
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Omnium said:

    Theresa May won't become Tory leader. Capable though she is there's nothing about her that adds to the equation. I would struggle to remember any phrase she has ever used.

    Boris adds. I suspect he's the most popular politician in the country. He even seems to be able to deliver when in office. There's some chance that Cameron will continue in the job for many year, and it may or may not be that Boris has his moment.

    Somehow he needs to promulgate whatever it is he's on. Popular Tory politics - it's historically been pretty hard to do. Obviously anyone with any sense (or money) has always voted for the right, and that explains Labours popularity entirely (the enemy of my enemy), but there is a chance that people like Boris can actually make the self-evident case to the populace.

    "Some people regard us as the Nasty Party"
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    maaarsh said:

    Bobajob said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools

    The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.

    Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.

    Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
    Greater London was formed nearly 50 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
    Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
    I love London whenever I visit it. It is dynamic, fast-paced, and there is so much to see and do. Truly all of life is there. And it contains three of my favourite walks - the Thames Path (both banks), and the Regent's Canal.

    At least, I love it until I have to travel in rush hour. Then I realise why I ran screaming from the place. ;-)
    All cities are fairly unpleasant in rush hour.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2013
    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    London isn't quite as wonderful as people make out. Very soon it will be a city with a complete absence of middle-class people, just rich and poor.

    Erm, no it won't. There are plenty of thriving middle class areas in London and there will continue to be. Explosive price rises in the very centre of London are not the same as the entire capital flushing out the middle class. Nothing like it. London is a very big place.
    Is there anywhere in London where the middle-classes are increasing in numbers or proportion?
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    antifrank said:

    They tell me that London goes beyond zone 1. Not that I have yet verified this surprising assertion.

    Then more fool you. Hampstead, Highgate and Greenwich are gems that will never shine afront thou eyes.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    When I was living on the Isle of Dogs back in 1993/4, there was a TV interview with an elderly lady (in her 90s?) who had never been off the Isle. She had lived there all her life and had never gone north of Poplar or south to Greenwich.

    From memory, the TV company took her around London and to Buckingham Palace.

    I can imagine that being true back then, but I bet she was the last of her breed.

    A similar question may be: how many Londoners have been to the North Downs, M25 excepted, or into Epping Forest?

    A south Londoner friend of mine from uni was a Millwall supporter. He had only been to a few foreign resorts, a few division one football stadium, and Margate. Aside from that, he had never been outside the M25. I took him to Alton Towers and he was fascinated by the rough, high farmland.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    tim said:
    He has one of the worst election slogans of all time:

    "Hands up for Hand"

    (The sound of one hand clapping)
  • Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    They tell me that London goes beyond zone 1. Not that I have yet verified this surprising assertion.

    Then more fool you. Hampstead, Highgate and Greenwich are gems that will never shine afront thou eyes.

    Hint: I might not have been entirely serious.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2013
    In inner cities you can't properly engage in free-form bipedal plantigrade locomotion. You must subscribe to the crowd's pace. You can't flow. Watch the poor joggers trying to make progress along the river near the Tate Modern for instance.
    So what's the solution? Another national gem: public footpaths. In the countryside.
  • surbiton said:

    Omnium said:

    Theresa May won't become Tory leader. Capable though she is there's nothing about her that adds to the equation. I would struggle to remember any phrase she has ever used.

    Boris adds. I suspect he's the most popular politician in the country. He even seems to be able to deliver when in office. There's some chance that Cameron will continue in the job for many year, and it may or may not be that Boris has his moment.

    Somehow he needs to promulgate whatever it is he's on. Popular Tory politics - it's historically been pretty hard to do. Obviously anyone with any sense (or money) has always voted for the right, and that explains Labours popularity entirely (the enemy of my enemy), but there is a chance that people like Boris can actually make the self-evident case to the populace.

    "Some people regard us as the Nasty Party"
    Exactly - she never actually called the Tories the Nasty Party.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    antifrank said:

    Bobajob said:

    antifrank said:

    They tell me that London goes beyond zone 1. Not that I have yet verified this surprising assertion.

    Then more fool you. Hampstead, Highgate and Greenwich are gems that will never shine afront thou eyes.

    Hint: I might not have been entirely serious.
    I know, I know
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
    I find such stories tragic.

  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    tim said:

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...

    The ball is in the air most of the time at Stoke's Britannia Stadium, so the pitch is used for grazing.
    Lol.

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    Some lefties in The Guardian threatened to leave the UK if Boris became Mayor. I'm still looking forward to their departure.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
    When I was a kid going through the girlie horse obsession phase, I asked my mum if I could have lessons. Her reply; 'Where do you think we'll find a horse in Stoke?'
  • NextNext Posts: 826
    SeanT said:

    Just went to my local street Christmas party. Met a 28 year old guy, affable, self effacing, pleasant, "works in search engine optimization" - he's recently bought a £2m house. With cash. All his own dosh, earned the last few years. Age 28.

    He claims.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Average of polls published during November 2012:

    Lab: 42%
    Con: 33%
    LD: 9%
    UKIP: 8%
    Others: 8%

    Average of polls published during November 2013:

    Lab: 39%
    Con: 32%
    LD: 10%
    UKIP: 12%
    Others: 8%

    Changes:

    Lab: -3%
    Con: -1%
    LD: +1%
    UKIP: +4%
    Others: nc
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    SeanT said:

    In more Delancey St Party News, "Aaron", our host, aged about 34 (works in "insurance"), and his beautiful African wife Zara, now owns all his £3m house, and has just applied for planning permission to create a 1000 bottle wine cellar.

    He's 34.

    It's a different world out there, in NW1. And, remember, these are the neighbours of Ed Miliband and Justine Thornton.

    Who do they intend to vote for in 2015?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    fitalass said:

    Just catching up with today's earlier thread and a few observations.
    David Herdson's excellent article yesterday morning really nailed the problems for the SNP and the Yes campaign after the launch of their White Paper. Absolutely no surprises in the polling reaction to the White Paper launch either, and I am feeling ever more confident that there will be a comfortable No result come the vote next year.

    And the somewhat rattled and bad tempered reaction of some Nats on here today following the launch of the White Paper is another entirely predictable outcome. There was a lot of high hopes riding on that White Paper, with many in the Yes camp desperately praying it would manage to pull a game changing rabbit out of the hat and thus confound the Nationalists critics. But as David Herdson noted, it came across as more of an SNP Holyrood election manifesto than a serious prospectus for Independence.

    The Independence White Paper launch turned out to be a real damp squib, and it hasn't been the game changer that its supporters had hoped it might be. Its simple hardened already made up minds on both sides of the debate, and this in turn is going to lead to yet more angry and noisy bickering of the kind we are already increasing seeing online.

    Dear oh dear , what can one say but give me strength, utter dross.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    AndyJS said:

    Average of polls published during November 2012:

    Lab: 42%
    Con: 33%
    LD: 9%
    UKIP: 8%
    Others: 8%

    Average of polls published during November 2013:

    Lab: 39%
    Con: 32%
    LD: 10%
    UKIP: 12%
    Others: 8%

    Changes:

    Lab: -3%
    Con: -1%
    LD: +1%
    UKIP: +4%
    Others: nc

    Inside MOE for both big parties in a year. Remarkably stable polling.
  • SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    In more Delancey St Party News, "Aaron", our host, aged about 34 (works in "insurance"), and his beautiful African wife Zara, now owns all his £3m house, and has just applied for planning permission to create a 1000 bottle wine cellar.

    He's 34.

    It's a different world out there, in NW1. And, remember, these are the neighbours of Ed Miliband and Justine Thornton.

    Who do they intend to vote for in 2015?
    That's a f*cking good question. I will ask next year. They are all really nice. But so.. ludicrously rich... at such a young age.

    Weird.
    "This time next year, we'll be millionaires!" - Del Boy :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    tim said:

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...

    The ball is in the air most of the time at Stoke's Britannia Stadium, so the pitch is used for grazing.
    ;-)

    Except it was 1994, so the Britannia Stadium might well have been used for grazing as it hadn't been built. It was either the Victoria Ground or Vale Park. Which is about the limit of my knowledge of the area's football.

    The same mate got me a free ticket to a Millwall-Derby match, the only football match I have ever been to. I was nominally a Derby supporter (as I was born near Derby) in the Millwall end. People knew me and him, so it felt fine.

    We left after the third pitch invasion. And people ask why I despise football. The glorious game? Not on your nelly...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    Average of polls published during November 2012:

    Lab: 42%
    Con: 33%
    LD: 9%
    UKIP: 8%
    Others: 8%

    Average of polls published during November 2013:

    Lab: 39%
    Con: 32%
    LD: 10%
    UKIP: 12%
    Others: 8%

    Changes:

    Lab: -3%
    Con: -1%
    LD: +1%
    UKIP: +4%
    Others: nc

    Inside MOE for both big parties in a year. Remarkably stable polling.
    Are you a spin doctor?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    JackW said:

    Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?

    Headline Betfair prices:

    Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
    No 1.23

    Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:

    Yes 4.8
    No 1.21

    I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.

    Even when I read the article, it read that way.

    It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
    Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
    What volume is moving the market ?

    GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
    reality starting to kick in
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,471
    Carola said:

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.

    I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
    Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"

    At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).

    We are no longer friends ...

    Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
    When I was a kid going through the girlie horse obsession phase, I asked my mum if I could have lessons. Her reply; 'Where do you think we'll find a horse in Stoke?'
    In the pies?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Central London exists in a parallel universe to the rest of the UK."

    If something goes wrong it'd be a horrible drop back to normal life for most of these people. With the London property market, for instance.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    AndyJS said:

    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    Average of polls published during November 2012:

    Lab: 42%
    Con: 33%
    LD: 9%
    UKIP: 8%
    Others: 8%

    Average of polls published during November 2013:

    Lab: 39%
    Con: 32%
    LD: 10%
    UKIP: 12%
    Others: 8%

    Changes:

    Lab: -3%
    Con: -1%
    LD: +1%
    UKIP: +4%
    Others: nc

    Inside MOE for both big parties in a year. Remarkably stable polling.
    Are you a spin doctor?
    Eh? Odd question

    Con -1
    Lab -3

    Just pointing out the stability of the polling.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    edited December 2013
    AndyJS said:

    "Central London exists in a parallel universe to the rest of the UK."

    If something goes wrong it'd be a horrible drop back to normal life for most of these people. With the London property market, for instance.

    It is still an overcrowded dump for most people, with some Disney land tourist attractions in the centre where plebs cannot afford to go.
  • We left after the third pitch invasion. And people ask why I despise football. The glorious game? Not on your nelly...

    Millwall did used to have a certain reputation.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    There's something a bit sinister about this case:

    "A pregnant woman was sedated against her will and her baby removed by caesarean section and taken into care after instructions from social services, it has been claimed.

    Social workers went to the High Court to get a court order which allowed them to take the child from the mother's womb, according to reports."


    http://news.sky.com/story/1176124/womans-baby-taken-from-womb-by-court-order
  • malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Central London exists in a parallel universe to the rest of the UK."

    If something goes wrong it'd be a horrible drop back to normal life for most of these people. With the London property market, for instance.

    It is still an overcrowded dump for most people, with some Disney land tourist attractions in the centre where plebs cannot afford to go.
    That's no way to describe Edinburgh!
    :)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    SeanT said:


    Ludicrous. Much of the appeal of London is that it is the ancient, historic capital of an incredibly stable, democratic, affluent, law-abiding kingdom. Ripping it out of England (to become, what, a republic?) would destroy its USP instantly.

    They sure don't come here for the weather.

    Well, it was a long hot summer in "Passport to Pimlico" so perhaps they would...

    We need to think about "independence" beyond notions of borders, uniforms, currencies and armies.

    An independent London as part of the Commonwealth might well be in the EU even if the rest of the former United Kingdom has decided to leave (though I suspect it might choose to leave the EU for other reasons).

    I'm not arguing for an independent London now but I do think the argument will be put forward more forcefully in the next 25 years.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A meta analysis should narrow the confidence interval and MOE, provided the mic of polls and their methodology was unchanged.

    Still enough to put the Eds into Downing St, despite the slide though.
    Bobajob said:

    AndyJS said:

    Average of polls published during November 2012:

    Lab: 42%
    Con: 33%
    LD: 9%
    UKIP: 8%
    Others: 8%

    Average of polls published during November 2013:

    Lab: 39%
    Con: 32%
    LD: 10%
    UKIP: 12%
    Others: 8%

    Changes:

    Lab: -3%
    Con: -1%
    LD: +1%
    UKIP: +4%
    Others: nc

    Inside MOE for both big parties in a year. Remarkably stable polling.
This discussion has been closed.