Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.
I thought it was Osborne who was distancing himself?
"What would Maggie do on housing? She would recognise the squeeze on her core voters, their desperate shortage of homes; she would revive her great mission of a property-owning democracy and encourage the creation of hundreds of thousands of new homes in which people had at least a share of the equity themselves; and she would remember the lessons of Baldwin and Macmillan and Thatcher – that Tories are most successful when they help middle Britain to find the housing they need. "
At last.
A back-to-basics Tory policy you can get behind, tim.
You don't hear Tories talking about property-owning democracy so much these days. They're more interested in the buy-to-let democracy. Gives better returns.
I thought it was Osborne who was distancing himself?
"What would Maggie do on housing? She would recognise the squeeze on her core voters, their desperate shortage of homes; she would revive her great mission of a property-owning democracy and encourage the creation of hundreds of thousands of new homes in which people had at least a share of the equity themselves; and she would remember the lessons of Baldwin and Macmillan and Thatcher – that Tories are most successful when they help middle Britain to find the housing they need. "
At last.
A back-to-basics Tory policy you can get behind, tim.
You don't hear Tories talking about property-owning democracy so much these days. They're more interested in the buy-to-let democracy. Gives better returns.
Paddy Power - Referendum On A United Ireland? - Applies to whether or not a referendum on Northern Ireland to become part of a fully united Ireland is put to the people of Northern Ireland by the end of 2020. Must be an official referendum and held by the British government.
Yes 9/2 No 1/8
Even if you think that No is the winning bet, it is hard to see why on earth any punter would lock up their cash for over 7 years for a pathetic return of 1/8.
The chances of the Tories choosing him as leader are slight, and dependent on endless improbabilities all turning out right.
Slight but not impossible. Regardless, he would certainly have more than enough clout with the grassroots to be a kingmaker of sorts and that would appeal to him. From thence to whatever juicy posting he wished if all went well.
stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.
I can't speak for New York or Paris but the economic argument for an independent London is a hard one to refute. London would more than hold its own economically as an independent state possibly outside the EU.
No reason why people living outside London couldn't continue to work inside London but a lot of the "highest skilled workforce" no longer commutes from the Home Counties but lives and works along the river or in Docklands and in any case many of them aren't UK nationals.
Just catching up with today's earlier thread and a few observations. David Herdson's excellent article yesterday morning really nailed the problems for the SNP and the Yes campaign after the launch of their White Paper. Absolutely no surprises in the polling reaction to the White Paper launch either, and I am feeling ever more confident that there will be a comfortable No result come the vote next year.
And the somewhat rattled and bad tempered reaction of some Nats on here today following the launch of the White Paper is another entirely predictable outcome. There was a lot of high hopes riding on that White Paper, with many in the Yes camp desperately praying it would manage to pull a game changing rabbit out of the hat and thus confound the Nationalists critics. But as David Herdson noted, it came across as more of an SNP Holyrood election manifesto than a serious prospectus for Independence.
The Independence White Paper launch turned out to be a real damp squib, and it hasn't been the game changer that its supporters had hoped it might be. Its simple hardened already made up minds on both sides of the debate, and this in turn is going to lead to yet more angry and noisy bickering of the kind we are already increasing seeing online.
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
Right now I'd say the odds on Yes winning are, realistically, about 10/1 against. And no, I'm not offering them personally.
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
As a classicist, I'm in favour of us returning back to city-states, like Sparta.
On this topic, Vince Cable has recognised Sheffield's brilliance and future role as the major city of the UK
Business Bank to be based in Sheffield
Vince Cable to give an extra £250m to Britain's Business Bank and move its headquarters to Yorkshire, The Telegraph can reveal.
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.
You cannot divorce city from state.
What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
stodge London has always attracted migrants as with most other major cities, but I doubt most commuters would have to go through customs and take their passports to work everyday. In any case, as for being outside the EU, London is probably the most pro-EU region in the country. There may well emerge an independence for London movement, but it would probably get about as many votes as the Cornish Independence Party, Mebyon Kernow
SeanT Exactly, moving the Royal Family to Windsor and Parliament back to Winchester would also destroy much of the very essence of London and its role
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.
You cannot divorce city from state.
The capital of Anglo-Saxon England (post-unification) was Winchester. It was the Normans who moved it to London.
stodge An independent London, why not an independent New York or Paris? It would not make sense, in any case as not only is it the ancient capital of the nation, but of course an entire section of the UK, particularly around the home counties, is interdependent with it and provides much of its highest skilled workforce.
I can't speak for New York or Paris but the economic argument for an independent London is a hard one to refute. London would more than hold its own economically as an independent state possibly outside the EU.
No reason why people living outside London couldn't continue to work inside London but a lot of the "highest skilled workforce" no longer commutes from the Home Counties but lives and works along the river or in Docklands and in any case many of them aren't UK nationals.
What exactly are the benefits of this which would remote outweigh the huge disruption and damage caused in transition.
Just because something could work if it were already so does not mean it would be a good idea to switch to that state.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.
You cannot divorce city from state.
What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
I think there have been a couple of polls that have completed their fieldwork, but are yet to be published (because I think the people commissioning them aren't weekend newspapers)
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.
You cannot divorce city from state.
What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
I think there have been a couple of polls that have completed their fieldwork, but are yet to be published (because I think the people commissioning them aren't weekend newspapers)
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
What volume is moving the market ?
GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
It's not a lot of cash to move a market by around a point at this stage.
I'm not suggesting it here but market manipulation to gather a few headlines and a little momentum is not uncommon in the US.
Broadly speaking YES has it all to do. Not impossible and "events, dear boy events" may yet intervene but clearly the odds presently strongly favour the Unionist cause.
I have as much chance of becoming Prime Minister as of being decapitated by a frisbee or of finding Elvis. - Boris quoted in the Daily Mail, July 2003.
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
What volume is moving the market ?
GBP 2000 was matched today at Betfair.
It's not a lot of cash to move a market by around a point at this stage.
I'm not suggesting it here but market manipulation to gather a few headlines and a little momentum is not uncommon in the US.
Broadly speaking YES has it all to do. Not impossible and "events, dear boy events" may yet intervene but clearly the odds presently strongly favour the Unionist cause.
Err... correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot recall Betfair prices ever forming the basis of any headline whatsoever. Only geeks like me are remotely interested in them, and they have zero effect on public opinion.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
Writing on-topically, but trivially, I'll admit to never particularly liking Boris. To me he sounds like he's got 24 hour morning mouth. But I do admire his head of hair and the way he cycled his bulk 100 miles over hill & dale around London recently, slow but determined. Such determination may well extend to his politics, in which case maybe some people had better be wary. He sometimes does say and write things to get one thinking. I guess that's what court jesters had licence to do?
London isn't quite as wonderful as people make out. Very soon it will be a city with a complete absence of middle-class people, just rich and poor.
Erm, no it won't. There are plenty of thriving middle class areas in London and there will continue to be. Explosive price rises in the very centre of London are not the same as the entire capital flushing out the middle class. Nothing like it. London is a very big place.
I agree. Boris has an undoubted charm, but would be better suited to being Mayor and then party Chairman rebuilding the party in the country. If anything could get people turning out on the rubber chicken circuit on a cold January evening, it would be to have Boris as after dinner speaker.
Writing on-topically, but trivially, I'll admit to never particularly liking Boris. To me he sounds like he's got 24 hour morning mouth. But I do admire his head of hair and the way he cycled his bulk 100 miles over hill & dale around London recently, slow but determined. Such determination may well extend to his politics, in which case maybe some people had better be wary. He sometimes does say and write things to get one thinking. I guess that's what court jesters had licence to do?
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford. - Samuel Johnson, 1777.
...when the metropolis already had a population of around 800-odd thousand. Must have been seriously smelly and unhealthy (thereby curtailing one's life should he/she be tired of it). A big thank you to the Victorians for their sewerage system and water supply.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey
Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
There are also pieces of paper saying Manchester is not in Lancashire which mean equally little.
Who cares? I was able to vote for Boris in 2008 and again in 2012, despite living in IG2.
Obviously no one cares - I was just a little irratated by someone running around calling others bumpkins like some big city big shot, when they actually live in a dull suburb miles away from the areas anyone else wants to be.
The dominant economies of the next decades are going to be city economies. London would do better by itself than being held back by the ill-aligned economies of the rest of the UK which are populated by people with hostility and incomprehension for what London does and represents.
But London is a success mainly BECAUSE it is the capital of England, this remarkable, resilient kingdom with stable institutions dating back to the Anglo-Saxons. London IS England, capitalised.
You cannot divorce city from state.
What we really need is for London to run the rest of the UK on a colonial basis.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
I love London whenever I visit it. It is dynamic, fast-paced, and there is so much to see and do. Truly all of life is there. And it contains three of my favourite walks - the Thames Path (both banks), and the Regent's Canal.
At least, I love it until I have to travel in rush hour. Then I realise why I ran screaming from the place. ;-)
Bobajob Indeed, but the likes of Enfield and Harrow are still suburbs rather than the heart of the city, and Bromley, Bexley and Upminster and Richmond etc are really Kent and Essex and Surrey
Pretty sure all of those are actually part of London, but don't have London postcodes, which is confusing.
Theresa May won't become Tory leader. Capable though she is there's nothing about her that adds to the equation. I would struggle to remember any phrase she has ever used.
Boris adds. I suspect he's the most popular politician in the country. He even seems to be able to deliver when in office. There's some chance that Cameron will continue in the job for many year, and it may or may not be that Boris has his moment.
Somehow he needs to promulgate whatever it is he's on. Popular Tory politics - it's historically been pretty hard to do. Obviously anyone with any sense (or money) has always voted for the right, and that explains Labours popularity entirely (the enemy of my enemy), but there is a chance that people like Boris can actually make the self-evident case to the populace.
Andy JS - Indeed, London is now the European New York, ethnically diverse, where people from across the continent come to make their fortune and work in the City but which also has a large underclass largely dependant on welfare. Most of the middle class has moved out to the suburbs and indeed while many of the young may live in the city when starting their careers, once they have families they move out too unless they are super rich and can afford to pay for London housing and private schools
The London suburbs are still very much part of London. I don't know why out-of-towners seem to believe that London stops at Zone 1/2.
Suburban hangers on trying to pretend they're part of the city.
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
Most of the out of towners on here have seen approximately 1% of London, wandered around Leicester Square for a minute with a piece of straw in their mouth, got scared, and took the first train back to Bumpkin Central.
I love London whenever I visit it. It is dynamic, fast-paced, and there is so much to see and do. Truly all of life is there. And it contains three of my favourite walks - the Thames Path (both banks), and the Regent's Canal.
At least, I love it until I have to travel in rush hour. Then I realise why I ran screaming from the place. ;-)
London isn't quite as wonderful as people make out. Very soon it will be a city with a complete absence of middle-class people, just rich and poor.
Erm, no it won't. There are plenty of thriving middle class areas in London and there will continue to be. Explosive price rises in the very centre of London are not the same as the entire capital flushing out the middle class. Nothing like it. London is a very big place.
Is there anywhere in London where the middle-classes are increasing in numbers or proportion?
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
When I was living on the Isle of Dogs back in 1993/4, there was a TV interview with an elderly lady (in her 90s?) who had never been off the Isle. She had lived there all her life and had never gone north of Poplar or south to Greenwich.
From memory, the TV company took her around London and to Buckingham Palace.
I can imagine that being true back then, but I bet she was the last of her breed.
A similar question may be: how many Londoners have been to the North Downs, M25 excepted, or into Epping Forest?
A south Londoner friend of mine from uni was a Millwall supporter. He had only been to a few foreign resorts, a few division one football stadium, and Margate. Aside from that, he had never been outside the M25. I took him to Alton Towers and he was fascinated by the rough, high farmland.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
In inner cities you can't properly engage in free-form bipedal plantigrade locomotion. You must subscribe to the crowd's pace. You can't flow. Watch the poor joggers trying to make progress along the river near the Tate Modern for instance. So what's the solution? Another national gem: public footpaths. In the countryside.
Theresa May won't become Tory leader. Capable though she is there's nothing about her that adds to the equation. I would struggle to remember any phrase she has ever used.
Boris adds. I suspect he's the most popular politician in the country. He even seems to be able to deliver when in office. There's some chance that Cameron will continue in the job for many year, and it may or may not be that Boris has his moment.
Somehow he needs to promulgate whatever it is he's on. Popular Tory politics - it's historically been pretty hard to do. Obviously anyone with any sense (or money) has always voted for the right, and that explains Labours popularity entirely (the enemy of my enemy), but there is a chance that people like Boris can actually make the self-evident case to the populace.
"Some people regard us as the Nasty Party"
Exactly - she never actually called the Tories the Nasty Party.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
The ball is in the air most of the time at Stoke's Britannia Stadium, so the pitch is used for grazing.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
When I was a kid going through the girlie horse obsession phase, I asked my mum if I could have lessons. Her reply; 'Where do you think we'll find a horse in Stoke?'
Just went to my local street Christmas party. Met a 28 year old guy, affable, self effacing, pleasant, "works in search engine optimization" - he's recently bought a £2m house. With cash. All his own dosh, earned the last few years. Age 28.
In more Delancey St Party News, "Aaron", our host, aged about 34 (works in "insurance"), and his beautiful African wife Zara, now owns all his £3m house, and has just applied for planning permission to create a 1000 bottle wine cellar.
He's 34.
It's a different world out there, in NW1. And, remember, these are the neighbours of Ed Miliband and Justine Thornton.
Just catching up with today's earlier thread and a few observations. David Herdson's excellent article yesterday morning really nailed the problems for the SNP and the Yes campaign after the launch of their White Paper. Absolutely no surprises in the polling reaction to the White Paper launch either, and I am feeling ever more confident that there will be a comfortable No result come the vote next year.
And the somewhat rattled and bad tempered reaction of some Nats on here today following the launch of the White Paper is another entirely predictable outcome. There was a lot of high hopes riding on that White Paper, with many in the Yes camp desperately praying it would manage to pull a game changing rabbit out of the hat and thus confound the Nationalists critics. But as David Herdson noted, it came across as more of an SNP Holyrood election manifesto than a serious prospectus for Independence.
The Independence White Paper launch turned out to be a real damp squib, and it hasn't been the game changer that its supporters had hoped it might be. Its simple hardened already made up minds on both sides of the debate, and this in turn is going to lead to yet more angry and noisy bickering of the kind we are already increasing seeing online.
Dear oh dear , what can one say but give me strength, utter dross.
In more Delancey St Party News, "Aaron", our host, aged about 34 (works in "insurance"), and his beautiful African wife Zara, now owns all his £3m house, and has just applied for planning permission to create a 1000 bottle wine cellar.
He's 34.
It's a different world out there, in NW1. And, remember, these are the neighbours of Ed Miliband and Justine Thornton.
Who do they intend to vote for in 2015?
That's a f*cking good question. I will ask next year. They are all really nice. But so.. ludicrously rich... at such a young age.
Weird.
"This time next year, we'll be millionaires!" - Del Boy
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
The ball is in the air most of the time at Stoke's Britannia Stadium, so the pitch is used for grazing.
;-)
Except it was 1994, so the Britannia Stadium might well have been used for grazing as it hadn't been built. It was either the Victoria Ground or Vale Park. Which is about the limit of my knowledge of the area's football.
The same mate got me a free ticket to a Millwall-Derby match, the only football match I have ever been to. I was nominally a Derby supporter (as I was born near Derby) in the Millwall end. People knew me and him, so it felt fine.
We left after the third pitch invasion. And people ask why I despise football. The glorious game? Not on your nelly...
Big moves to Yes on the Betfair market today. Unclear why given today's Progressive Scottish Opinion poll in the Scottish Mail on Sunday (Yes 27% (nc), No 56% (-3), DK 17% (+3)). Worth noting that PSO are not BPC members and thus do not disclose methodology or detailed findings, so perhaps punters ignore them?
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning) No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8 No 1.21
I think there were rumours that the Sunday Times had a reduced lead for no with yougov.
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
Aha. Thanks. But I still fail to see why that would explain the move in prices, with Yes shortening from 6 to 5.1 in just 12 hours. That is the biggest daily price movement in the IndyRef market in months, and I am scratching my head cos I cannot see any obvious reason. Of course, a private poll or two might explain it.
It would be interesting to know how many Londoners have never ventured outside the M25. Whether this would be a sign of parochialism or sophistication might be an interesting discussion point.
I saw a documentary about an East London school a few years back where not a single classmate had ever seen a cow. This was utterly depressing. I can understand not wanting to live outside London (I wouldn't want to) but the English countryside should be experienced by all.
Heh. That's the second part of the story I mentioned below. After going to Alton Towers, my mate wanted to see a local football stadium in Stoke. So I drove him there. On the way, we saw a distant herd of Holstein cows. He asked me what they were. Rather surprised, I replied: "badgers"
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
When I was a kid going through the girlie horse obsession phase, I asked my mum if I could have lessons. Her reply; 'Where do you think we'll find a horse in Stoke?'
"A pregnant woman was sedated against her will and her baby removed by caesarean section and taken into care after instructions from social services, it has been claimed.
Social workers went to the High Court to get a court order which allowed them to take the child from the mother's womb, according to reports."
Ludicrous. Much of the appeal of London is that it is the ancient, historic capital of an incredibly stable, democratic, affluent, law-abiding kingdom. Ripping it out of England (to become, what, a republic?) would destroy its USP instantly.
They sure don't come here for the weather.
Well, it was a long hot summer in "Passport to Pimlico" so perhaps they would...
We need to think about "independence" beyond notions of borders, uniforms, currencies and armies.
An independent London as part of the Commonwealth might well be in the EU even if the rest of the former United Kingdom has decided to leave (though I suspect it might choose to leave the EU for other reasons).
I'm not arguing for an independent London now but I do think the argument will be put forward more forcefully in the next 25 years.
Comments
""Cllr Troy Tester @CllrTroyTester 28 Nov
Stephen Lloyd reselected as Lib Dem candidate for the 2015 general election by an overwhelming majority. Well done Stephen"
twitter.com/CllrTroyTester/status/406147911027019776
The damage will be minimal.
He'll be more worried he ends up like Ken, a spent force who's cheeky chappy act and appeal had faded with time and it just didn't sell anymore.
Headline Betfair prices:
Yes 5.1 (was 6 this morning)
No 1.23
Betfair prices at the GBP 100 + stake level:
Yes 4.8
No 1.21
- Applies to whether or not a referendum on Northern Ireland to become part of a fully united Ireland is put to the people of Northern Ireland by the end of 2020. Must be an official referendum and held by the British government.
Yes 9/2
No 1/8
Even if you think that No is the winning bet, it is hard to see why on earth any punter would lock up their cash for over 7 years for a pathetic return of 1/8.
I'm backing Norwich to win on Wednesday.
11/1 with Paddy Power
No reason why people living outside London couldn't continue to work inside London but a lot of the "highest skilled workforce" no longer commutes from the Home Counties but lives and works along the river or in Docklands and in any case many of them aren't UK nationals.
David Herdson's excellent article yesterday morning really nailed the problems for the SNP and the Yes campaign after the launch of their White Paper. Absolutely no surprises in the polling reaction to the White Paper launch either, and I am feeling ever more confident that there will be a comfortable No result come the vote next year.
And the somewhat rattled and bad tempered reaction of some Nats on here today following the launch of the White Paper is another entirely predictable outcome. There was a lot of high hopes riding on that White Paper, with many in the Yes camp desperately praying it would manage to pull a game changing rabbit out of the hat and thus confound the Nationalists critics. But as David Herdson noted, it came across as more of an SNP Holyrood election manifesto than a serious prospectus for Independence.
The Independence White Paper launch turned out to be a real damp squib, and it hasn't been the game changer that its supporters had hoped it might be. Its simple hardened already made up minds on both sides of the debate, and this in turn is going to lead to yet more angry and noisy bickering of the kind we are already increasing seeing online.
Though I'm still waiting for the time I'm editing the site, and there's a big scandal involving Ed Balls.
The headline will be
"Balls deep in trouble"
"Jack Duffin @jackduffin 28 Nov
Been elected parliamentary candidate for Uxbridge &South Ruislip thank you to the local members. Roll on 2014 locals then the GE in 2015"
twitter.com/jackduffin/status/406172571890380800
Even when I read the article, it read that way.
It was only in another piece, the poll was a UK wide figure and a Scottish sub-sample figure.
On this topic, Vince Cable has recognised Sheffield's brilliance and future role as the major city of the UK
Business Bank to be based in Sheffield
Vince Cable to give an extra £250m to Britain's Business Bank and move its headquarters to Yorkshire, The Telegraph can reveal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10486762/Business-Bank-to-be-based-in-Sheffield.html
Today you must have been to hull and back !!
Titters ....
Copyright - Del Trotter.
SeanT Exactly, moving the Royal Family to Windsor and Parliament back to Winchester would also destroy much of the very essence of London and its role
It was embarrasing, it was like Liverpool were being managed by Charles Edward Stuart, and Hull were managed by The Duke of Cumberland
Just because something could work if it were already so does not mean it would be a good idea to switch to that state.
I'm not suggesting it here but market manipulation to gather a few headlines and a little momentum is not uncommon in the US.
Broadly speaking YES has it all to do. Not impossible and "events, dear boy events" may yet intervene but clearly the odds presently strongly favour the Unionist cause.
- Boris quoted in the Daily Mail, July 2003.
He sometimes does say and write things to get one thinking. I guess that's what court jesters had licence to do?
http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/12/how-did-a-private-turkish-university-and-the-carlyle-group-a-global-asset-management-company-end-up-in-the-mix-to-run-three-rural-schools-in-oxfordshire/
- Samuel Johnson, 1777.
, on
Zone 1 or nothing. Personally I don't recognise the locality of anyone who doesn't sleep in the square mile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Government_Act_1963
"Britain's worst gang hit neighbourhoods are seeing levels of sexual violence as bad as in war zones, it was claimed today."
Is Kaliningrad still in East Prussia?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25180205
At least, I love it until I have to travel in rush hour. Then I realise why I ran screaming from the place. ;-)
Still, even postal London is massive - goes out as far as Epping Forest on the green belt.
http://geoffbilbrough.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/london_postcodes.png
From memory, the TV company took her around London and to Buckingham Palace.
I can imagine that being true back then, but I bet she was the last of her breed.
A similar question may be: how many Londoners have been to the North Downs, M25 excepted, or into Epping Forest?
A south Londoner friend of mine from uni was a Millwall supporter. He had only been to a few foreign resorts, a few division one football stadium, and Margate. Aside from that, he had never been outside the M25. I took him to Alton Towers and he was fascinated by the rough, high farmland.
"Hands up for Hand"
(The sound of one hand clapping)
At breakfast the next morning, he expressed his surprise to my parents that badgers were so large. He had always thought of them as being small creatures. He had a good degree (in computing, not biology).
We are no longer friends ...
Then, a few years ago, there was a kids TV program where the children had to break eggs on their heads; some were boiled, some were raw. One of the kids (and I'd put him at ten or eleven) said he had never seen an egg before ...
So what's the solution? Another national gem: public footpaths. In the countryside.
Lab: 42%
Con: 33%
LD: 9%
UKIP: 8%
Others: 8%
Average of polls published during November 2013:
Lab: 39%
Con: 32%
LD: 10%
UKIP: 12%
Others: 8%
Changes:
Lab: -3%
Con: -1%
LD: +1%
UKIP: +4%
Others: nc
Except it was 1994, so the Britannia Stadium might well have been used for grazing as it hadn't been built. It was either the Victoria Ground or Vale Park. Which is about the limit of my knowledge of the area's football.
The same mate got me a free ticket to a Millwall-Derby match, the only football match I have ever been to. I was nominally a Derby supporter (as I was born near Derby) in the Millwall end. People knew me and him, so it felt fine.
We left after the third pitch invasion. And people ask why I despise football. The glorious game? Not on your nelly...
If something goes wrong it'd be a horrible drop back to normal life for most of these people. With the London property market, for instance.
Con -1
Lab -3
Just pointing out the stability of the polling.
"A pregnant woman was sedated against her will and her baby removed by caesarean section and taken into care after instructions from social services, it has been claimed.
Social workers went to the High Court to get a court order which allowed them to take the child from the mother's womb, according to reports."
http://news.sky.com/story/1176124/womans-baby-taken-from-womb-by-court-order
We need to think about "independence" beyond notions of borders, uniforms, currencies and armies.
An independent London as part of the Commonwealth might well be in the EU even if the rest of the former United Kingdom has decided to leave (though I suspect it might choose to leave the EU for other reasons).
I'm not arguing for an independent London now but I do think the argument will be put forward more forcefully in the next 25 years.
Still enough to put the Eds into Downing St, despite the slide though.