I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Huawei's finances are extremely opaque, they are, in essence, owned by the PLA. Aiui the existing subsidies number in the billions of dollars in R&D and paying over the odds for wages and IP. The ongoing subsidy is in state support for it's semi-conductors division where it offers a vastly inferior product to either Samsung or Qualcomm but the Chinese state buys all of Huawei's excess capacity for Kirin ASICs as Huawei doesn't have a major client base (even Chinese mobile companies stick with Qualcomm).
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Well, the problem is we don't know.
While Huawei produces an annual report showing it makes about a 10% operating margin, we don't know how much of its sales are to its parent, the Chinese Liberation Army. Or indeed, how much credence we can give to the financial statements.
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Huawei's finances are extremely opaque, they are, in essence, owned by the PLA. Aiui the existing subsidies number in the billions of dollars in R&D and paying over the odds for wages and IP. The ongoing subsidy is in state support for it's semi-conductors division where it offers a vastly inferior product to either Samsung or Qualcomm but the Chinese state buys all of Huawei's excess capacity for Kirin ASICs as Huawei doesn't have a major client base (even Chinese mobile companies stick with Qualcomm).
I don’t doubt they get substantial state support. I was questioning the numbers thrown out on that thread, and hoping someone had some harder information. How does it compare with (say) the support Airbus and Boeing get in various ways for their commercial aircraft businesses ?
FWIW, the most egregious Chinese practices happened decades back when companies like Motorola were suckered (or stupid enough to think it a good idea) into investing billions and transferring technology into joint ventures in which they held minority stakes. That ended very well for China and not at all well for them.
The Labour benches were empty for the Huawei announcement. May picked up on Raab’s comment about “creating capabilities”among friendly states as critical for the future
That's all a load of rubbish from Raab, unless Huawei are specifically frozen our of the UK, EU and US markets then it's not going to make a difference. Huawei equipment is both cheaper and superior to anything else on the table. That problem will never go away and 5G is here for the next 20 years.
It's definitely cheaper, but is it really more than 6-12 months ahead of Samsung and Ericsson? In Los Angeles, we have milimeter wave 5G from those guys (albeit in extremely limited geographical locations), and you get 200mb/s.
Until you cross the street and 5G drops back to 4G.
I think it's the ability of Huawei to sit on top of existing 4G hardware that no one else does. It's very useful for BT as they use a lot of Huawei 4G kit, it makes the upgrade process way cheaper and way faster than Ericsson.
That is, if anything, even more concerning...
The idea that Huawei would be the route to do bad things is nonsense unless it's some all-out war. The economic benefit and the technological benefit to China of having Huawei product is so huge that they'd be stupid to mess with it.
It's much more likely that others buggering up Huawei kit will cause us problems as an unintended target.
Shows the state of things with China, but in Hong Kong there is (I'm told) plenty of conspiracy theory talk that the virus is a Chinese lab creation that has escaped.
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Well, the problem is we don't know.
While Huawei produces an annual report showing it makes about a 10% operating margin, we don't know how much of its sales are to its parent, the Chinese Liberation Army. Or indeed, how much credence we can give to the financial statements.
The Labour benches were empty for the Huawei announcement. May picked up on Raab’s comment about “creating capabilities”among friendly states as critical for the future
That's all a load of rubbish from Raab, unless Huawei are specifically frozen our of the UK, EU and US markets then it's not going to make a difference. Huawei equipment is both cheaper and superior to anything else on the table. That problem will never go away and 5G is here for the next 20 years.
It's definitely cheaper, but is it really more than 6-12 months ahead of Samsung and Ericsson? In Los Angeles, we have milimeter wave 5G from those guys (albeit in extremely limited geographical locations), and you get 200mb/s.
Until you cross the street and 5G drops back to 4G.
I think it's the ability of Huawei to sit on top of existing 4G hardware that no one else does. It's very useful for BT as they use a lot of Huawei 4G kit, it makes the upgrade process way cheaper and way faster than Ericsson.
And also if you banned them, you’d have to start the whole bidding process all over again.
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Huawei's finances are extremely opaque, they are, in essence, owned by the PLA. Aiui the existing subsidies number in the billions of dollars in R&D and paying over the odds for wages and IP. The ongoing subsidy is in state support for it's semi-conductors division where it offers a vastly inferior product to either Samsung or Qualcomm but the Chinese state buys all of Huawei's excess capacity for Kirin ASICs as Huawei doesn't have a major client base (even Chinese mobile companies stick with Qualcomm).
I don’t doubt they get substantial state support. I was questioning the numbers thrown out on that thread, and hoping someone had some harder information. How does it compare with (say) the support Airbus and Boeing get in various ways for their commercial aircraft businesses ?
FWIW, the most egregious Chinese practices happened decades back when companies like Motorola were suckered (or stupid enough to think it a good idea) into investing billions and transferring technology into joint ventures in which they held minority stakes. That ended very well for China and not at all well for them.
It's basically impossible to know unless you're a senior member of the communist party
In comparison to Airbus or Boeing, I guess the difference is that they both get similar levels of subsidy. Huawei competes in an otherwise fair market.
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
Well this is what I was saying earlier, Huawei has benefited from billions in subsidies to monopolise the 5G market. Now it's going to try and put the rest of them out of business by undercutting competitor prices.
It's tech dumping and really the EU, US and UK should have discussed this 3 years ago and presented a united front against Chinese tech dumping and frozen Huawei and other Chinese tech companies out of Western markets until the subsidies were eliminated.
Basically we let the fox into the henhouse 5 years ago and now we're wondering why it ate all the hens.
It's also compounded by the fact that Ericsson got really greedy towards the end of 4G and started trying to tie expensive managed services contracts to equipment sales.
Yes indeed, and Nokia basically being completely useless, and the EU investigating Nokia and Ericsson for patent monopolisation, and the US targeting Qualcomm with lawsuits etc...
It's just been a whole bunch of fucking terrible decision making and it's left the west at the mercy of a pretty awful Chinese state owned tech company.
Honestly, Boris has an opportunity here to broker a Western response to Chinese tech dumping. He needs to get the US, EU and other players around a table and actually figure out how to stop China completely destroying our tech companies.
If the tech is better I am not sure it’s dumping. But you are right, the West has failed miserably to think about 5G - and what it will enable - strategically. We have the expertise, we have the businesses, we do not have the joined up policy-making. In the US, the FTC is currently suing Qualcomm and the DoJ is offering testimony in defence. In Europe, DG Competition and Internal Market have been at loggerheads for years over Ericsson, Nokia and other big 5G patent licensors. What Europe does have, though, is good and effective courts. The US doesn’t even have these.
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Well, the problem is we don't know.
While Huawei produces an annual report showing it makes about a 10% operating margin, we don't know how much of its sales are to its parent, the Chinese Liberation Army. Or indeed, how much credence we can give to the financial statements.
What Europe does have, though, is good and effective courts. The US doesn’t even have these.
While I would agree they’re better than their US counterparts, I wouldn’t go so far as to describe them as ‘good and effective.’ The ECJ is hopelessly incompetent. Our lot are hardly better, even if David Eady was an especially low point.
Shows the state of things with China, but in Hong Kong there is (I'm told) plenty of conspiracy theory talk that the virus is a Chinese lab creation that has escaped.
Maybe the Chinese plan for dominance is to kill as many of us as possible with a virus first, and then pwn the survivors with its 5G bugs and AI enabled superdrones?
Well this is what I was saying earlier, Huawei has benefited from billions in subsidies to monopolise the 5G market. Now it's going to try and put the rest of them out of business by undercutting competitor prices. It's tech dumping and really the EU, US and UK should have discussed this 3 years ago and presented a united front against Chinese tech dumping and frozen Huawei and other Chinese tech companies out of Western markets until the subsidies were eliminated.
Basically we let the fox into the henhouse 5 years ago and now we're wondering why it ate all the hens.
It's also compounded by the fact that Ericsson got really greedy towards the end of 4G and started trying to tie expensive managed services contracts to equipment sales.
Yes indeed, and Nokia basically being completely useless, and the EU investigating Nokia and Ericsson for patent monopolisation, and the US targeting Qualcomm with lawsuits etc...
It's just been a whole bunch of fucking terrible decision making and it's left the west at the mercy of a pretty awful Chinese state owned tech company.
Honestly, Boris has an opportunity here to broker a Western response to Chinese tech dumping. He needs to get the US, EU and other players around a table and actually figure out how to stop China completely destroying our tech companies.
If the tech is better I am not sure it’s dumping. But you are right, the West has failed miserably to think about 5G - and what it will enable - strategically. We have the expertise, we have the businesses, we do not have the joined up policy-making. In the US, the FTC is currently suing Qualcomm and the DoJ is offering testimony in defence. In Europe, DG Competition and Internal Market have been at loggerheads for years over Ericsson, Nokia and other big 5G patent licensors. What Europe does have, though, is good and effective courts. The US doesn’t even have these.
You clearly know far more than me, but from what I can gather, the Huawei kit isn’t always cheaper, either ?
I actually think if the US had gone down the illegal subsidies route with Huawei instead of security concerns the EU would have been much more favourable to the argument. Nokia has a huge presence in France and Germany and Ericsson is basically the European champion for this kind of stuff. Both are going to put out of business in the next 5 years by Huawei as European network providees decide that Huawei is bothe cheaper and better than anything being offered by these two.
What are the actual numbers on Chinese state support for Huawei ? Those quoted on the twitter thread quoted below seem fanciful. (And from its figures it appears a substantially profitable company.)
Well, the problem is we don't know.
While Huawei produces an annual report showing it makes about a 10% operating margin, we don't know how much of its sales are to its parent, the Chinese Liberation Army. Or indeed, how much credence we can give to the financial statements.
There's a paper on it, that's how opaque it is. Essentially it's a labour union which is turn owned by the military branch of the state.
I used to work in tech equity research, and my boss was the top rated Telecoms Equipment analyst. He used to state it as fact, so I assumed it was true. That paper makes it clear how insanely opaque Huawei is.
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
What Europe does have, though, is good and effective courts. The US doesn’t even have these.
While I would agree they’re better than their US counterparts, I wouldn’t go so far as to describe them as ‘good and effective.’ The ECJ is hopelessly incompetent. Our lot are hardly better, even if David Eady was an especially low point.
The ECJ almost never gets involved in tech/patent disputes. These are dealt with at a national level at the moment. That said, the ECJ’s Huawei v ZTE decision is pretty much the gold standard in setting the parameters for tech licensing. Look out for our Supreme Court’s Unwired Planet and Conversant decision coming very soon. There’s a very good chance Huawei will hate it.
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
Equally, though, that shows you that Ericsson and Nokia are still really important players. Just a shame that they haven't got their 5G manufacturing shit together.
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
Equally, though, that shows you that Ericsson and Nokia are still really important players. Just a shame that they haven't got their 5G manufacturing shit together.
Absolutely - and they may well argue with some justification that pound for pound their 5G portfolios are actually much stronger than Huawei's. Qualcomm too, for that matter. All 5G standards essential patents are self-declared. There is no independent body that decides whether they are actually standards essential or not - the market does that.
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
Well I wrote a header in December which was pretty rude about what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs. And I’m still here.
*pause - thinks for a bit*
Shortly after I suddenly became ill and have been ill since and now I’m onto my second illness, with Kung Flu-like symptoms.....
It’s all making sense now ...... aaarghhhh!
Sorry @Casino_Royale: I don’t mean to be frivolous. You make a valid point. See the concerns of Chinese students here who object to what is happening in HK.
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
Why would we want to watch that mid-table club?
It's now a soap opera and a darned good one, that's why
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
Why would we want to watch that mid-table club?
Why would anybody want to watch football on a phone?
What I want to know is: will this affect our right to free speech in future? If I wanted to robustly criticise President Xi on here, and share that evidence, could I?
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
Well I wrote a header in December which was pretty rude about what the Chinese are doing to the Uighurs. And I’m still here.
*pause - thinks for a bit*
Shortly after I suddenly became ill and have been ill since and now I’m onto my second illness, with Kung Flu-like symptoms.....
It’s all making sense now ...... aaarghhhh!
Sorry @Casino_Royale: I don’t mean to be frivolous. You make a valid point. See the concerns of Chinese students here who object to what is happening in HK.
Is a 5G network really that important for all this fuss ? What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
5G is going to disrupt and fundamentally change a whole host of industries from telecoms, through healthcare, to mining, auto and just about everything else you can think of. It is the bedrock of the fourth industril revolution. It is really important that the UK is at the front-end of all this, giving its businesses the chance to do the disrupting, rather than responding a couple of years later once everything has been done.
Isn't it just faster 4G, allowing us to watch Manchester United on our mobiles at slightly higher resolution?
It's the HS2 of the telecom industry - it's sold on speed but what it really offers is capacity (albeit at the cost of having masts absolutely everywhere).
Comments
Blog post from the Tech Dir of the NCSC that checks Huawei kit. He explains the cybersecurity techies recommended to use it.
How does it compare with (say) the support Airbus and Boeing get in various ways for their commercial aircraft businesses ?
FWIW, the most egregious Chinese practices happened decades back when companies like Motorola were suckered (or stupid enough to think it a good idea) into investing billions and transferring technology into joint ventures in which they held minority stakes. That ended very well for China and not at all well for them.
It's much more likely that others buggering up Huawei kit will cause us problems as an unintended target.
There's a paper on it, that's how opaque it is. Essentially it's a labour union which is turn owned by the military branch of the state.
In comparison to Airbus or Boeing, I guess the difference is that they both get similar levels of subsidy. Huawei competes in an otherwise fair market.
For example, I have it on good authority that President Xi has [MODERATED]
FCO - putting China off limits to travellers.
They started it all when they played Steve Huawei.....
He seems to have been disappeared.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1222232619204726785?s=21
Is there any evidence that coronavirus is any more dangerous than regular new strains of 'flu we get every year?
What is the worst that could specifically happen if there is no 5G ?
Even late and incomplete restrictions help, but they may just buy time.
Edit: I don't believe any of this is needed, just saying what works should it be needed.
https://www.itproportal.com/features/5g-and-4ir-has-unleashed-the-internet-of-things/
That's why it's so important the UK gets involved early.
*pause - thinks for a bit*
Shortly after I suddenly became ill and have been ill since and now I’m onto my second illness, with Kung Flu-like symptoms.....
It’s all making sense now ...... aaarghhhh!
Sorry @Casino_Royale: I don’t mean to be frivolous. You make a valid point. See the concerns of Chinese students here who object to what is happening in HK.
https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1222197910525435907?s=20
Accepted investment from a Chinese telecoms company