The finding is the problem was Corbyn not Corbynism. This should distress centrists and gladden Corbynites. Corbyn the man is soon to leave the stage so if, as centrists and surveys claim, voters were repelled by him personally then job done and there is no need to adopt centrist policies.
Personally, I am sceptical of these sort of surveys but that is another story.
Since Oh Jeremy Corbyn walked on water in 2017 but sank in 2019, we should ask what changed in two years. CCHQ micro-targetted shitposting?
In 2017, I think he actually got a chance to make a SECOND first impression. It was probably the first time a lot of people had actually seen much of him, rather than read about his faults. He sharpened up his appearance, and kept his temper mostly in check, and the 2017 manifesto was pretty tame (based on 2015 as they had to get it out in a hurry).
Theresa May turned out to be totally awful at campaigning, and so Corbyn didn't look so bad. Brexit, plus the collapse of the Lib Dems, made it a straight choice of Tory v Labour, and so he ended up with a high vote share.
In 2019, people had seen the best of Corbyn, but also seen a lot more of the antisemitism, his comments about Salisbury, etc., and weren't going to give him the benefit of the doubt again.
As for Corbynism, if it's the 2019 manifesto, then it's a mess, and I don't really think it exists. I'd be surprised if anyone could create a coherent platform based on the last four years of Labour.
The 2019 manifesto was appalling as Nick Palmer and others have noted. Labour's 2019 campaign combined the worst elements of Ed Miliband 2015 -- a shapeless wish-list of policies with no priorities or guiding philosophy -- with 2017 Theresa May -- ad hoc announcements almost designed to repel voters. As I posted last year, it is almost as if Labour was run by Tory moles.
CCHQ on the other hand, did learn from Theresa May and systematically shot all Labour's 2017 foxes and made it appear that Boris was meeting ordinary voters even if on closer examination it was just a series of tightly-controlled photo-ops.
There is also the suspicion of anti-Corbyn below-the-radar shitposting by CCHQ but not much evidence so far (not that I've looked but I hope this will be explored in any forthcoming "how Boris won" books). We do know there was a late blitz of CCHQ social media activity and that CCHQ had engaged NZ specialists in dark campaigns.
There was a very successful hatchet job done on Corbyn by three groups, each with their own agenda.
1. The Tories obviously. They will try to do the same with whoever wins the Labour leadership. They'll be already trawling through Starmer's record as DPP etc but it will be less fertile ground than Corbyn's. It comes with the territory.
2. The Blairites within the Labour party who wanted to get rid of Corbyn and were prepared to sabotage him and their party's electoral prospects to achieve their aims. They've succeeded. Hopefully they'll accept Starmer but if Long-Bailey gets the post, I suspect the fight will go on.
3. The Israeli lobby who aimed to de-legitimise criticism of Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians as anti-semitism. (Not denying there is genuine anti-semitism in the Labour party. Unfortunately there are racists everywhere). They have totally succeeded with all five candidates accepting the 10 demands.
Three separate agendas that combined with lethal effect on Corbyn's political ambitions.
Hopefully Starmer will only face the Tories. He'll do well. The Labour 2017 policies were popular and Starmer is going to keep them as a base. That, combined with the crossover later this year between satisfaction with Johnson and Starmer, suggests that Labour next Government is a good bet (even though it will probably be a minority de-toxified government).
All those factors applied in 2017. Indeed the Tories rather backed off the hatchet job approach in 2019 because they thought it didn't work.
And btw lots of people are instinctively opposed to anti-Semitism. In putting "the Israeli lobby" on a par with the Tories and a major faction in Labour, as a force in UK politics, you are getting a bit well-funded international conspiracy-ish.
Isn't this just recognising public money won't be spent on it?
I think it's rather clever.
I suppose we ought to do something - it is a big event. Leavers should try to be muted and civilized. The image I like for them is the way that footballers in the 1950s (the target era and hinterland for Brexit) celebrated a goal. A firm, manly handshake and a brisk jog back to resume play. Remainers for their part must grin and bear it. For them I suggest the mental attitude with which one handles the wedding of a beloved son to a woman of whom one does not approve. There is copious TV footage from 19/5/18 available as a guide for how this is done.
Nice to have what I have believed all along proved by hard data. This wasn't a pro-Johnson or pro-Brexit GE, it was an anti-Corbyn GE.
If Labour detoxify their leadership, the problems caused by Johnson and Cummings and the way they have thumbed their nose at 48% of the electorate may well come home to roost.
In 2024 the Tories will have been in power for 14 years so obviously they'll be leaving office at some point in the next decade.
Only thing that makes me think Con could hold on in 2024 is the extremely low number of seats Labour is currently on. History suggests that it usually takes a couple of elections to make up that kind of seat deficit so Con might hold on until 2029.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Nope - she is responding to a tweet from Nicola Sturgeon is response to her original tweet.
Can you tell me what is actually wrong with either point (as anyone with a clue knows that independence is the default SNP response to any difficult question beyond do you want a cup of tea?)
Edit to add - Morning Malc/ see you woke up on the bright side today. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Morning Malc/. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
Hello GIN, I am well again and Mrs G is making good progress now, hoping a small chance she might get out of hospital by end of week. Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Morning Malc/. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
Hello GIN, I am well again and Mrs G is making good progress now, hoping a small chance she might get out of hospital by end of week. Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Have I missed something? Last time I was here you had the flu and a miserable Xmas?
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Morning Malc/. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
Hello GIN, I am well again and Mrs G is making good progress now, hoping a small chance she might get out of hospital by end of week. Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Nice to have what I have believed all along proved by hard data. This wasn't a pro-Johnson or pro-Brexit GE, it was an anti-Corbyn GE.
If Labour detoxify their leadership, the problems caused by Johnson and Cummings and the way they have thumbed their nose at 48% of the electorate may well come home to roost.
In 2024 the Tories will have been in power for 14 years so obviously they'll be leaving office at some point in the next decade.
Only thing that makes me think Con could hold on in 2024 is the extremely low number of seats Labour is currently on. History suggests that it usually takes a couple of elections to make up that kind of seat deficit so Con might hold on until 2029.
Depends what you mean by "in power." My view is that we have been in a backwater for 9 years following Cameron's astonishing failure in 2010 to harvest the anti-Brown bounce. Johnson's landslide is the one Cameron failed to win, and we can pretty much reset the clock to 2019.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Nope - she is responding to a tweet from Nicola Sturgeon is response to her original tweet.
Can you tell me what is actually wrong with either point (as anyone with a clue knows that independence is the default SNP response to any difficult question beyond do you want a cup of tea?)
Edit to add - Morning Malc/ see you woke up on the bright side today. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
She is the one who said she would ensure the union 100% and that the people of Scotland would not be allowed to decide their own future. She was the one that started it mouthing off about how UK union was better than EU union and how she would not allow democracy in Scotland, just like her hero Johnson. If only one of these labour dummies had a purpose like the SNP and maybe thought democracy was a good thing rather than them thinking they know best and they will tell Scotland what it can and cannot do based on their ignorance of anything and everything about Scotland. Just another thick ignorant donkey , only difference she is not from London but at least as thick and stupid as previous compatriots. PS: Maybe she should look at Labour record on NHS, Scotland is currently best in UK, far from perfect but doing well given they are at mercy of London budgets. Education is improving in many areas, cherry picking a couple of points out of a full report is typical of these lying toerags. The big arsehole wants to look at how Labour got wiped out in their heartlands.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!
truly the David Miliband of our time
As a man who laid David Miliband in the current leadership election at 30-40 even *after* Corbyn announced he was standing down, I can confirm that David Miliband is still the David Miliband of our time.
I don't disagree with you on Bloomberg, Yang also qualified when he was polling 1-2% nationally and was 15 or so on Betfair.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Morning Malc/. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
Hello GIN, I am well again and Mrs G is making good progress now, hoping a small chance she might get out of hospital by end of week. Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Have I missed something? Last time I was here you had the flu and a miserable Xmas?
Sorry to hear these hints of deeper troubles...
Yes my wife was desperately ill after Christmas , now on way to recovery thankfully, so been a bad time all round.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
Only if Brexit goes well. If it’s a disaster no-one will admit to voting Leave and the “Remoaners” will achieve the status of Vince Cable after the credit crunch.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
After taking to Twitter to tell the world about smashing a foxes brains in while wearing a Kimono on Boxing Day morning jolly Jolyon hasn't been seen or heard of again!
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
I kind of agree... except I don't... You seem to display the same constant yearning Stark_D was on about.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.
Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
This thread header is going to fall on very stony ground. Ardent Leavers are convinced the nation is yearning for Brexit, ardent Corbynites are convinced their leader was stabbed in the back by centrist Remainers.
A tapestry of polling evidence showing that the nation was unconvinced by Brexit (or Boris Johnson) but still more unconvinced by Jeremy Corbyn is not going to persuade them out of their comfort blanket beliefs.
Two variables were different in 2019 from 2017 -
Labours Brexit policy Boris was Tory leader
And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
I kind of agree... except I don't... You seem to display the same constant yearning Stark_D was on about.
Well snap.
This is not the first time I have posted an almost identical post to you.
3. The Israeli lobby who aimed to de-legitimise criticism of Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians as anti-semitism. (Not denying there is genuine anti-semitism in the Labour party. Unfortunately there are racists everywhere). They have totally succeeded with all five candidates accepting the 10 demands.
At the meeting I went to last week this was a hot topic. There was a highly charged and polarized argument between 2 factions. One group of people were insistent that this was a real and big issue and it was crucial that it be freely and openly discussed. The other group argued that every minute spent obsessing about Israel was at best a waste of time and at worst grist to the mill of antisemites. My conclusion is that it will be difficult and probably impossible for all these people to co-exist in the same party, regardless of who becomes leader. Corbynite vs Blairite, if we go with that terminology, there is a chasm in values and world view.
Scotland isn’t a colony, Scots voted to remain a part of the UK, or are you saying Scots were too wee and too stupid to realise what they were voting for in 2014?
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
More lies, there were no personal promises, what a jerk.
You sound surprised. So now what for Indy? Illegal referendum?
I doubt illegal referendum, but they cannot sustain such an undemocratic position forever. SNP certainly need to do something. It will be a boost though as it shows how they see Scotland as just a colony so not bad for SNP and as you say was expected. They obviously think they will lose and so trying to hold off as long as possible hoping for a miracle or SNP disaster.
Three week campaign? That's certainly better than our elections dragging on for weeks and weeks and weeks...
The only possible outcomes seem to be FF/LP/Greens or FG/LP/Greens.
Sinn Fein will probably (and sadly) go backwards by a few seats but the possible election of a few right wing racists shits like Grealish or Casey will add to the gaiety of the occasion.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
I kind of agree... except I don't... You seem to display the same constant yearning Stark_D was on about.
Well snap.
This is not the first time I have posted an almost identical post to you.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
I kind of agree... except I don't... You seem to display the same constant yearning Stark_D was on about.
Well snap.
This is not the first time I have posted an almost identical post to you.
3. The Israeli lobby who aimed to de-legitimise criticism of Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians as anti-semitism. (Not denying there is genuine anti-semitism in the Labour party. Unfortunately there are racists everywhere). They have totally succeeded with all five candidates accepting the 10 demands.
At the meeting I went to last week this was a hot topic. There was a highly charged and polarized argument between 2 factions. One group of people were insistent that this was a real and big issue and it was crucial that it be freely and openly discussed. The other group argued that every minute spent obsessing about Israel was at best a waste of time and at worst grist to the mill of antisemites. My conclusion is that it will be difficult and probably impossible for all these people to co-exist in the same party, regardless of who becomes leader. Corbynite vs Blairite, if we go with that terminology, there is a chasm in values and world view.
There is easier terminology - anti-semites and not anti-semites.
Scotland isn’t a colony, Scots voted to remain a part of the UK, or are you saying Scots were too wee and too stupid to realise what they were voting for in 2014?
Many were for sure, institutionalised to be subservient and suppine.
And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!
I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.
So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
3. The Israeli lobby who aimed to de-legitimise criticism of Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians as anti-semitism. (Not denying there is genuine anti-semitism in the Labour party. Unfortunately there are racists everywhere). They have totally succeeded with all five candidates accepting the 10 demands.
At the meeting I went to last week this was a hot topic. There was a highly charged and polarized argument between 2 factions. One group of people were insistent that this was a real and big issue and it was crucial that it be freely and openly discussed. The other group argued that every minute spent obsessing about Israel was at best a waste of time and at worst grist to the mill of antisemites. My conclusion is that it will be difficult and probably impossible for all these people to co-exist in the same party, regardless of who becomes leader. Corbynite vs Blairite, if we go with that terminology, there is a chasm in values and world view.
As with apartheid I just do not get this habit of the left of obsessing over perceived injustice in arbitrarily selected far away countries of which we know little. What have the Palestinians got that the uighur and rohingya haven't, and anyway surely it is a betrayal of all the uk victims of the evil Tories for the uk left to spend most of their time worrying about countries which are not the uk? Can these people not be anti Semites in their spare time?
What better way to celebrate hi-tech Britain than putting four enormous speakers* in Big Ben, the sort that go to 11, and playing the bongs through them.
One could even let Mr Francois press 'play'.
*Not genetically enhanced Bercows or Hoyles, to be clear
And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!
I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.
So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
You're having a bad day today. Lab wouldn't have lost remainers to the LDs because the LDs were advocating revoke and we saw how popular that was. Remainers would have been happy to have a soft Brexit option given that the other two extremes (revoke and potentially diamond-hard) were and are hugely problematic.
Remainers are generally intelligent beings who realise that the EURef result needs to be honoured but we don't need to shoot our feet off to show that we can manage without shoes.
The finding is the problem was Corbyn not Corbynism. This should distress centrists and gladden Corbynites. Corbyn the man is soon to leave the stage so if, as centrists and surveys claim, voters were repelled by him personally then job done and there is no need to adopt centrist policies.
Personally, I am sceptical of these sort of surveys but that is another story.
Since Oh Jeremy Corbyn walked on water in 2017 but sank in 2019, we should ask what changed in two years. CCHQ micro-targetted shitposting?
It's a good question. I think that in 2017 the media focused on the policies, which most people quite liked. There was lots of anti-Corbyn stuff too, but he was new to most people and they were struck by the enthusiastic rallies on TV. By 2019, both Brexit and the anti-semitism row had worn the gloss off, and he was no longer new and the rallies rather smaller. But the shit-posting was a factor too, and will be again even if we select Jesus Christ as leader - look how he incited violence against bankers, he'll ruin Britain's finances.
He overthrew the moneychangers tables iirc. I don't think he went about with a baseball bat
That';s a distinction which it would be trivial for a little social media effort to blur. I genuinely do not think that there is an adult human being alive who has never said or done anything which cannot be spun into a "dangerous person" meme. Obviously some of us give more hostages to fortune than others, and JC provided them with cheerful abandon before he became leader. But whoever we choose as leader will have something that will be thrown at them.
What better way to celebrate hi-tech Britain than putting four enormous speakers* in Big Ben, the sort that go to 11, and playing the bongs through them.
One could even let Mr Francois press 'play'.
*Not genetically enhanced Bercows or Hoyles, to be clear
I wondered about that, too. We're probably missing something, but for the life of me I can't figure out why this is a bad idea.
Although, for humorous images, having Francois yelling 'Bong!' into a massively amped loudhailer whilst tied to the top of the Palace of Westminster takes some beating.
Jess Phillips one of five contenders for the Labour leadership, has insisted if she became her party’s leader it would be “100 per cent committed to the Union”.
The Birmingham MP, who is due to campaign in Glasgow today, said the SNP’s “abject failings” on health and education were a "threat to opportunity and equality" for working people in Scotland.
LOL, where do they dig up these nutters, labour have less support than UKIP in Scotland. Perhaps she should ponder that fact, just another dumbo who will sink back to the bottom soon. PS: Another liar peddling rubbish re NHS and education as well.
She is more barking than Corbyn. Thicker than mince.
Morning Malc/. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
Hello GIN, I am well again and Mrs G is making good progress now, hoping a small chance she might get out of hospital by end of week. Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Have I missed something? Last time I was here you had the flu and a miserable Xmas?
Sorry to hear these hints of deeper troubles...
Yes my wife was desperately ill after Christmas , now on way to recovery thankfully, so been a bad time all round.
There is easier terminology - anti-semites and not anti-semites.
Which side of the discussion were you on?
These 2 groups disagree on virtually everything. Israel is a sideshow albeit a topic that gets the blood up. Me, I don't think that Israeli-funded smears of Labour were a material factor in the GE result. It was "Boris" and it was Brexit fatigue. That produced a 50 seat Con majority. Dislike of Corbyn then turned it into 80.
The finding is the problem was Corbyn not Corbynism. This should distress centrists and gladden Corbynites. Corbyn the man is soon to leave the stage so if, as centrists and surveys claim, voters were repelled by him personally then job done and there is no need to adopt centrist policies.
Personally, I am sceptical of these sort of surveys but that is another story.
Since Oh Jeremy Corbyn walked on water in 2017 but sank in 2019, we should ask what changed in two years. CCHQ micro-targetted shitposting?
It's a good question. I think that in 2017 the media focused on the policies, which most people quite liked. There was lots of anti-Corbyn stuff too, but he was new to most people and they were struck by the enthusiastic rallies on TV. By 2019, both Brexit and the anti-semitism row had worn the gloss off, and he was no longer new and the rallies rather smaller. But the shit-posting was a factor too, and will be again even if we select Jesus Christ as leader - look how he incited violence against bankers, he'll ruin Britain's finances.
He overthrew the moneychangers tables iirc. I don't think he went about with a baseball bat
That';s a distinction which it would be trivial for a little social media effort to blur. I genuinely do not think that there is an adult human being alive who has never said or done anything which cannot be spun into a "dangerous person" meme. Obviously some of us give more hostages to fortune than others, and JC provided them with cheerful abandon before he became leader. But whoever we choose as leader will have something that will be thrown at them.
What better way to celebrate hi-tech Britain than putting four enormous speakers* in Big Ben, the sort that go to 11, and playing the bongs through them.
One could even let Mr Francois press 'play'.
*Not genetically enhanced Bercows or Hoyles, to be clear
I do prefer the approach of using Mr Francois's head to strike the bell.
As the floor is not there is the plan to hire a human cannon to fire him from below?
What better way to celebrate hi-tech Britain than putting four enormous speakers* in Big Ben, the sort that go to 11, and playing the bongs through them.
One could even let Mr Francois press 'play'.
*Not genetically enhanced Bercows or Hoyles, to be clear
I do prefer the approach of using Mr Francois's head to strike the bell.
Kind of like a hammer, with his feet as the handle. And his head as the bell end.
There is easier terminology - anti-semites and not anti-semites.
Which side of the discussion were you on?
These 2 groups disagree on virtually everything. Israel is a sideshow albeit a topic that gets the blood up. Me, I don't think that Israeli-funded smears of Labour were a material factor in the GE result. It was "Boris" and it was Brexit fatigue. That produced a 50 seat Con majority. Dislike of Corbyn then turned it into 80.
Just to clarify, are you disputing the existence of "Israeli-funded smears", or simply saying they were ineffective?
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
I kind of agree. And yet the Remainers have brought it all on themselves, with their utterly loathsome attempt to subvert democracy.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
Well doh! Say "I kind of agree" and then completely and utterly ignore what Stark Dawning says.
Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
It's not hard to understand the nuance
Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.
HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again
It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
An addiction to Libtard tears is one of the hardest to break.
I'm large green on La Thornberry much of it at 130s. Was thinking of laying off some of that at 70s but I think she will tighten further. There are two grown ups in the race and she is one of them.
And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!
I doubt that Labour would have done better if they had stuck to their original policy of Soft Brexit, no Ref2. Risked a great deal worse if anything. Mass Remainer defection to the LDs. It was a forced change in stance. It was unsatisfactory but the best of the bad options available.
So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
I think the key factor was not policy, people or the campaigns. It was Labour and LDs agreeing to a General Election at that time.
LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).
You're having a bad day today. Lab wouldn't have lost remainers to the LDs because the LDs were advocating revoke and we saw how popular that was. Remainers would have been happy to have a soft Brexit option given that the other two extremes (revoke and potentially diamond-hard) were and are hugely problematic.
Remainers are generally intelligent beings who realise that the EURef result needs to be honoured but we don't need to shoot our feet off to show that we can manage without shoes.
You may be right - and we will never know - but I prefer my analysis. If Labour had gone into the GE as an unambiguously Leave party, I think the LDs would have stuck with Ref2 as their policy. This juxtaposition would have constituted an enormous risk for Labour. There was a non-trivial possibility of the LDs sweeping up Remainer votes in those circumstances and perhaps even starting to threaten Labour's position as the biggest non-Tory force in the country. That risk could not be run, hence Labour's pivot to Ref2.
3. The Israeli lobby who aimed to de-legitimise criticism of Israeli government policy towards the Palestinians as anti-semitism. (Not denying there is genuine anti-semitism in the Labour party. Unfortunately there are racists everywhere). They have totally succeeded with all five candidates accepting the 10 demands.
At the meeting I went to last week this was a hot topic. There was a highly charged and polarized argument between 2 factions. One group of people were insistent that this was a real and big issue and it was crucial that it be freely and openly discussed. The other group argued that every minute spent obsessing about Israel was at best a waste of time and at worst grist to the mill of antisemites. My conclusion is that it will be difficult and probably impossible for all these people to co-exist in the same party, regardless of who becomes leader. Corbynite vs Blairite, if we go with that terminology, there is a chasm in values and world view.
As with apartheid I just do not get this habit of the left of obsessing over perceived injustice in arbitrarily selected far away countries of which we know little. What have the Palestinians got that the uighur and rohingya haven't, and anyway surely it is a betrayal of all the uk victims of the evil Tories for the uk left to spend most of their time worrying about countries which are not the uk? Can these people not be anti Semites in their spare time?
You're having a bad day today. Lab wouldn't have lost remainers to the LDs because the LDs were advocating revoke and we saw how popular that was. Remainers would have been happy to have a soft Brexit option given that the other two extremes (revoke and potentially diamond-hard) were and are hugely problematic.
Remainers are generally intelligent beings who realise that the EURef result needs to be honoured but we don't need to shoot our feet off to show that we can manage without shoes.
You may be right - and we will never know - but I prefer my analysis. If Labour had gone into the GE as an unambiguously Leave party, I think the LDs would have stuck with Ref2 as their policy. This juxtaposition would have constituted an enormous risk for Labour. There was a non-trivial possibility of the LDs sweeping up Remainer votes in those circumstances and perhaps even starting to threaten Labour's position as the biggest non-Tory force in the country. That risk could not be run, hence Labour's pivot to Ref2.
Considering Bloomberg is supposed to be targeting California he looks like a big sell nationally at 9-1.
already laid as much as I can afford to lose!!
truly the David Miliband of our time
Under statement, lol.
If he reaches 3/1 we can promote him to the Marco Rubio of our time?
New trousers all round for PBers if he hits that.
Never mind Bloomberg. Some of us are going to be burnt by Bernie at this rate. And then have to try and survive four more years of Trump.
To be serious for a moment, Bloomberg could conceivably bounce to around 3/1 if he can get third in Iowa - as Rubio did - so that comparison may be more accurate than my other flippant comment would have it
I'm large green on La Thornberry much of it at 130s. Was thinking of laying off some of that at 70s but I think she will tighten further. There are two grown ups in the race and she is one of them.
Jess Philips should probably be longer than Thornberry.
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever seen. I suppose the list of donors will provide an easy way of identifying those who need lifelong disability benefits due to chronic mental impairment.
It is designed to annoy the right Remainery people, and thus please the Brexiteers.
It is clearly quite effective
The Leavers have won lock, stock and barrel. They need to pocket their triumph and move on. Their constant yearning, even now, to grind the Remainers into the dust is unbecoming.
An addiction to Libtard tears is one of the hardest to break.
The Reconstruction is some way off. It looks more like a temporary truce than any kind of durable settlement. Leavers have failed to persuade Remainers and they don't yet seem ready to work out how to secure their long term acquiescence to a project they still think is misconceived.
Dem primary voters: here is a taste of what is to come if you put Bernie against Trump:
"The most substantively outrageous presidential campaign in American history has some serious chance of success.
Bernie Sanders is leading or near the top of most polls in the first two Democratic nominating states of Iowa and New Hampshire. He could plausibly win both, which would instantly transform the race into an ugly, desperate effort to Stop Bernie."
Comments
Nobody made him call Hezbollah and Hamas his friends, or attend events commemorating the rise of the Ayatollah in Iran.
Obama embraced technology and had a smart, modern way of campaigning.
Those not so cool have dark campaigns and underhand tactics.
truly the David Miliband of our time
And btw lots of people are instinctively opposed to anti-Semitism. In putting "the Israeli lobby" on a par with the Tories and a major faction in Labour, as a force in UK politics, you are getting a bit well-funded international conspiracy-ish.
Only thing that makes me think Con could hold on in 2024 is the extremely low number of seats Labour is currently on. History suggests that it usually takes a couple of elections to make up that kind of seat deficit so Con might hold on until 2029.
Can you tell me what is actually wrong with either point (as anyone with a clue knows that independence is the default SNP response to any difficult question beyond do you want a cup of tea?)
Edit to add - Morning Malc/ see you woke up on the bright side today. Hope your and Mrs Malc's recovery is progressing?
It is clearly quite effective
Long recovery ahead but happy with that.
Are eek and Gin one and the same?!
Sorry to hear these hints of deeper troubles...
Just another thick ignorant donkey , only difference she is not from London but at least as thick and stupid as previous compatriots.
PS: Maybe she should look at Labour record on NHS, Scotland is currently best in UK, far from perfect but doing well given they are at mercy of London budgets. Education is improving in many areas, cherry picking a couple of points out of a full report is typical of these lying toerags. The big arsehole wants to look at how Labour got wiped out in their heartlands.
Emily Maitlis and Jeremy Paxman are absolutely right. In years to come we will look at the various efforts of the Remainers to ditch the first vote and have another vote, or even just Revoke, and we will feel a bewildered horror.
What were they thinking?? Hugh Grant, Jolyon Maugham, all of them.... my God. What a shower of entitled shits.
I don't disagree with you on Bloomberg, Yang also qualified when he was polling 1-2% nationally and was 15 or so on Betfair.
If it’s a disaster no-one will admit to voting Leave and the “Remoaners” will achieve the status of Vince Cable after the credit crunch.
https://twitter.com/gilesyb/status/1215199626812444672?s=21
You seem to display the same constant yearning Stark_D was on about.
Does it not even cross your mind that Remainers may just have the same sort of views about you. It is a disagreement.
Labours Brexit policy
Boris was Tory leader
And you think neither were decisive factors. Suits you!!
If so, you absolute twat.
If not, you phrased your post badly.
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1217039173347168257?s=20
This is not the first time I have posted an almost identical post to you.
Weird.
So now what for Indy? Illegal referendum?
Events dear boy...
Notwithstanding @HYUFD ’s tank brigade up the A1.
It will be a boost though as it shows how they see Scotland as just a colony so not bad for SNP and as you say was expected. They obviously think they will lose and so trying to hold off as long as possible hoping for a miracle or SNP disaster.
Sinn Fein will probably (and sadly) go backwards by a few seats but the possible election of a few right wing racists shits like Grealish or Casey will add to the gaiety of the occasion.
Which side of the discussion were you on?
1. Suck it up
2. Err, that's it
So IMO the key factor was not Labour's Brexit policy. The main difference on Brexit compared to 2017 was that by Dec 2019 people were truly sick and tired of the impasse. They wanted it "done" and Johnson successfully positioned a Con majority as the way to ensure that. He framed and timed the GE perfectly. It was top top politics.
One could even let Mr Francois press 'play'.
*Not genetically enhanced Bercows or Hoyles, to be clear
Remainers are generally intelligent beings who realise that the EURef result needs to be honoured but we don't need to shoot our feet off to show that we can manage without shoes.
Labour members in England don't care.
Labour members in Scotland are now ultra-yoons who would outlaw the SNP if they had the chance.
Jess will clean up in Scotland.
Although, for humorous images, having Francois yelling 'Bong!' into a massively amped loudhailer whilst tied to the top of the Palace of Westminster takes some beating.
As the floor is not there is the plan to hire a human cannon to fire him from below?
Big Labour city surrounded by Tory towns and villages.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1217022832359673857
Leavers have won. So, in theory, they should pocket that win and walk away.
HOWEVER the behaviour of Remainers has been so outrageous and anti-democratic there is a valid argument for making them publicly eat crow, so no one ever tries this shit again
It's like the philosophical arguments for the punishment of crime. Sometimes you have to go beyond the cold logic of prevention and rehabilitation, into deterrence. You make an example of a particular offender, pour encourager les autres
LDs agreed for party reasons based on the Euro results (as did the SNP). I think Labour were chickened into it plus hubris from Corbyn who thought he could pull the 2017 trick again. Johnson couldn't believe his luck. From then on it was nailed on (except for my model, sorry about that!).
https://twitter.com/TeamNandy/status/1216733417368358912?s=20
(I am right, though.)
"The most substantively outrageous presidential campaign in American history has some serious chance of success.
Bernie Sanders is leading or near the top of most polls in the first two Democratic nominating states of Iowa and New Hampshire. He could plausibly win both, which would instantly transform the race into an ugly, desperate effort to Stop Bernie."
https://nypost.com/2020/01/13/bernie-sanders-wild-radicalism-has-serious-chance-of-taking-over-dem-party/