Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Brexit negotiations reach a critical point the latest Y

12346»

Comments

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    Is Marmite either Halal or kosher? Would Vegemite work? Prefer Bovril myself.

    Dunno about kosher, but IIRC halal is only concerned with the slaughter of animals providing meat, and there are no other Islamic dietary restrictions other than the prohibition of pork and the consumption of blood.

    So Vegemite by not containing any meet is ipso facto halal.
    Marmite is of course a by-product of brewing and I presume vegemite is too. Not sure if that makes a difference so long as they don't contain alcohol.
    Doesn't Vinegar ? Muslims consume vinegar [ sirqa ] by the gallons.
    As I understand it most Muslim traditions don't ban consuming any alcohol outright, rather you're not allowed to consume substances that in larger (but practical to consume) amounts would contain enough alcohol to intoxicate. So "non-alcoholic" beer, which in fact contains about 0.5% alcohol, is OK because you can't practically consume enough to become intoxicated. I should imagine the same is true of vinegar.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    If Andy Bruce is right, then the deal will be agreed. Issues involving VAT won't scupper it, although they might delay it because of the need to pin down the details.

    I am surprised there are VAT issues given there is slready a VAT border between NI and Ireland.
    I'm guessing the issue is that VAT is refunded as goods leave the EU, ie you move them from RoI to NI. If you don't control the border they can easily be smuggled back into the EU again, thus fraudulently eliminating VAT from internal EU goods.

    There are some other VAT anomalies. Private citizens can buy stuff in the other territory effectively free of VAT but have to pay it in their own territory.

    My guess is that the EU is insisting on NI being in the EU VAT area, which potentially puts it outside the UK one.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    No they’re just throwing their toys out of the pram because they’re not getting their veto and won’t be able to take Stormont hostage every 4 years .

    I hope Johnson tells them to get lost .
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Amazing that everything depends on a handful of rogues from NI. Boris and others grovelling and throwing cash at them. What a pathetic state this wretched union is in. They deserve all they are going to get.

    Whereas you lot automatically get your cut via the Barnett formula without all this unseemly wrestling
    Don't talk crap we have paid in lots more than we received out , over 68B in last 30 years or so. They can't corrupt the SNP into voting for their crooked hides but have eager customers in NI. Trust you to be on the side of crooks, no surprise.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    No they’re just throwing their toys out of the pram because they’re not getting their veto and won’t be able to take Stormont hostage every 4 years .

    I hope Johnson tells them to get lost .
    They can then vote the deal down!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    There's still some room left in the Group4 wagon parked in Downing Street.

    Get the printing presses rolling, Sajid.......
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    Bad luck for Brexiteers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47747945

    Brexit: Nigel Dodds 'would rather stay in the EU than risk union'
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    No they’re just throwing their toys out of the pram because they’re not getting their veto and won’t be able to take Stormont hostage every 4 years .

    I hope Johnson tells them to get lost .
    The concessions they extract now will be on their GE leaflets.

    It's business.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Apparently the level playing field provisions on workers rights aren’t in this deal . Good luck if you’re a Labour MP and vote for that .
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895

    If Andy Bruce is right, then the deal will be agreed. Issues involving VAT won't scupper it, although they might delay it because of the need to pin down the details.

    I am surprised there are VAT issues given there is slready a VAT border between NI and Ireland.
    Presumably it's something to do with the fact that the UK will be outside the EU VAT rules.
    I assume the merry box 8 and 9 dance and Intrastat will continue for a while
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Gabs2 said:

    The refusal of the US to handover the apparent killer of Harry Dunn or provide redress to the Connors after the disgusting abuse of their infant son shows the United States is no longer a friend to the UK. Nor should they any longer be considered a civilized Western country.

    You do realise no nation on the planet would “hand over” a citizen in these circumstances without months of patient diplomatic work? Of course you do.

    We all dislike Trump. We mustn’t let it blind us when the US is actually just acting like we would.
    There is a UK-US Extradition Treaty.
    The individual has/had diplomatic immunity. There’s various bits of complexity around that; but all nations guard that religiously. If it doesn’t matter with us because they trust our legal system, then what about France? What about Mexico? What about Egypt? What about Iran?

    There’s obviously a line in there somewhere, but it’s better not to try and draw it, and to keep consistent for all countries. We’d do the same.

    It’s unimaginable what that family is going through, but it’s not a Trump/US thing.
    How about that stunt in the White House?
    Oh that’s inexcusable and shows Trump is an arse. I assumed that was priced in and was talking about the underlying issue and the advice he’s getting.

    Edit - It also really does emphasise he thinks like a reality tv star. Probably something we can learn from that in predicting future behaviour. I mean “well guess what, we’ve brought her here tonight to apologise” is unbelievably crass and naive.
    Why in God's name did Mrs S agree to it? I think far more criticism should be made of her than Trump in this case. Any decent person would have said no to such a circus.
    I agree. Though, was she ordered to? He husband was a “diplomat”, does she work for the US Gvt too?
    There are some orders you refuse to obey. Out of plain human decency, frankly. This should have been one of them, if in fact there was an "order".
    I've some sympathy for her leaving.

    She was scared, no doubt advised by the embassy and lawyers to leave and did what she was told.

    But once she had the time to get home and reflect on the situation she should have done what you said.

    (I'll see what my wife can find out from her friends at the 'embassy'..)
    She is lower than the low, I hope she never gets another nights sleep. What a scumbag.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316
    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    No they’re just throwing their toys out of the pram because they’re not getting their veto and won’t be able to take Stormont hostage every 4 years .

    I hope Johnson tells them to get lost .
    No theyre just better at negotiation than HMG, who knows the tantrums could be part of a ploy to get the EU to settle while the going is good. Frankly none of us know so why get excited ?
  • TGOHF2TGOHF2 Posts: 584

    TGOHF2 said:

    If Andy Bruce is right, then the deal will be agreed. Issues involving VAT won't scupper it, although they might delay it because of the need to pin down the details.

    I am surprised there are VAT issues given there is slready a VAT border between NI and Ireland.
    https://twitter.com/douglascarswell/status/1184510435581681664?s=21
    does this mean multi nat onliners cant play the bought in luxemburg wheeze ?
    I hope so - what larks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    NYT: Charles Blow on Biden at debate - "Bless his heart. It feels like he’s just hanging on for dear life. At moments, it felt like he vanished, not just because it wasn’t his time to speak but because his aura of invincibility is flickering like a candle in a hurricane. But he yelled in his closing, so there’s that."

    Other columnists also gave him the thumbs down.

    Not looking good for the Dems at the moment.

    The problem the Dems have is that their leading moderate is not as mentally sharp as he once was.

    Yes, I know I take the piss out of @HYUFD, but he's absolutely right that the Biden of 2016 was a formidable candidate who would have hammered Trump.

    But Biden is four years older, and isn't (frankly) as coherent as he was then. His inability to count to three. His inability to think on his feet. His statements that he's going to abolish capital gains tax... no wait, he's going to increase it.

    He's a man who was once great, but is now rambling and only semi-coherent. Trump would absolutely hammer him.

    Which leads to one of two conclusions: if Biden fades before Iowa, then whichever moderate is ahead of him there is going to be going toe-to-tow with Warren. If Biden manages to hang on to second in Iowa, then I think Warren is going to wipe the floor with Biden over the course of the Primaries.

    My view is that Biden is losing ground in Iowa, has the least committed support, and doesn't have the ground organisation. I think that points to someone else winning there. And right now, Buttigieg is the guy making waves in Iowa.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    nico67 said:

    Apparently the level playing field provisions on workers rights aren’t in this deal . Good luck if you’re a Labour MP and vote for that .

    Labour could have had that already, along with environmental protections and a customs union - May offered Corbyn literally all his demands, but he turned it down regardless.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,316

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    Bad luck for Brexiteers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47747945

    Brexit: Nigel Dodds 'would rather stay in the EU than risk union'
    errr thats from last March
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    TGOHF2 said:

    If Andy Bruce is right, then the deal will be agreed. Issues involving VAT won't scupper it, although they might delay it because of the need to pin down the details.

    I am surprised there are VAT issues given there is slready a VAT border between NI and Ireland.
    https://twitter.com/douglascarswell/status/1184510435581681664?s=21
    No, it really doesn't.

    That's a really bad idea. For various reasons, VAT is much better than a sales tax, as pretty much 100% of economists agree.
  • rcs1000 said:

    TGOHF2 said:

    If Andy Bruce is right, then the deal will be agreed. Issues involving VAT won't scupper it, although they might delay it because of the need to pin down the details.

    I am surprised there are VAT issues given there is slready a VAT border between NI and Ireland.
    https://twitter.com/douglascarswell/status/1184510435581681664?s=21
    No, it really doesn't.

    That's a really bad idea. For various reasons, VAT is much better than a sales tax, as pretty much 100% of economists agree.
    Carswell is a thickie
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Porn blocker plan "dropped" https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50073102

    I think that was nailed on once shagger got the keys to No. 10.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Stocky said:

    Re Dan Hodges: Yes, Lab/SNP/LD MPs will do all they can to stop government securing a deal. Can`t let Tories get credit.

    They are against a deal and against no deal yet have the gaul to say that they are respecting the ref result.

    Pedant alert: gaul should be Gall
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?

    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Foxy said:

    If there is a deal, they do need time to read and digest it. As always the devil is in the detail.

    Bouncing it though without scrutiny is unwise. That is how Mrs T passed the Single European Act that set the ball rolling on Euroscepticism.
    Their adherence to proper scrutiny processes evaporates when they wish to pass a bill in a day. Granted those are generally simpler, but even the Benn Act people have questioned what certain parts mean and theorized about ways around it, things that could be ironed out with the proper process.

    Now, expediting things might be necessary and appropriate, but it's still not a cast iron commitment to scrutiny as your presentation.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    As someone in the comments pointed out, Corbyn's low approval rating is actually better than it was before the election in 2017:
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1184424977048784898

    Worth considering.

    So he could fall further
    Or have less ground to recover.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    malcolmg said:

    Stocky said:

    Re Dan Hodges: Yes, Lab/SNP/LD MPs will do all they can to stop government securing a deal. Can`t let Tories get credit.

    They are against a deal and against no deal yet have the gaul to say that they are respecting the ref result.

    Pedant alert: gaul should be Gall
    Is the Gaul Dogmatix?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    Bad luck for Brexiteers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47747945

    Brexit: Nigel Dodds 'would rather stay in the EU than risk union'
    Been a while since we had a 'better remain than this' approach.

    The dup risk the union sufficiently as it is.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Andrew said:

    nico67 said:

    Apparently the level playing field provisions on workers rights aren’t in this deal . Good luck if you’re a Labour MP and vote for that .

    Labour could have had that already, along with environmental protections and a customs union - May offered Corbyn literally all his demands, but he turned it down regardless.
    Still no reason for Labour MPs to vote for this deal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    edited October 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?

    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
    Thats true but is irrelevant to whether it would be acceptable on it's own terms or not. Parliament should pass subject to referendum.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,895
    @kle4 How do you find so much sense ?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    rcs1000 said:

    NYT: Charles Blow on Biden at debate - "Bless his heart. It feels like he’s just hanging on for dear life. At moments, it felt like he vanished, not just because it wasn’t his time to speak but because his aura of invincibility is flickering like a candle in a hurricane. But he yelled in his closing, so there’s that."

    Other columnists also gave him the thumbs down.

    Not looking good for the Dems at the moment.

    The problem the Dems have is that their leading moderate is not as mentally sharp as he once was.

    Yes, I know I take the piss out of @HYUFD, but he's absolutely right that the Biden of 2016 was a formidable candidate who would have hammered Trump.

    But Biden is four years older, and isn't (frankly) as coherent as he was then. His inability to count to three. His inability to think on his feet. His statements that he's going to abolish capital gains tax... no wait, he's going to increase it.

    He's a man who was once great, but is now rambling and only semi-coherent. Trump would absolutely hammer him.

    Which leads to one of two conclusions: if Biden fades before Iowa, then whichever moderate is ahead of him there is going to be going toe-to-tow with Warren. If Biden manages to hang on to second in Iowa, then I think Warren is going to wipe the floor with Biden over the course of the Primaries.

    My view is that Biden is losing ground in Iowa, has the least committed support, and doesn't have the ground organisation. I think that points to someone else winning there. And right now, Buttigieg is the guy making waves in Iowa.
    Only Biden can beat Warren. Buttigieg will be toast if he ends up against her
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited October 2019
    Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by those of todays ultra woke individuals standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360
    edited October 2019
    Cyclefree said:



    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?

    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
    Boris voted for MV3. So yes, if it was No Brexit or This Deal, he would vote for This Deal. Even if Dominic Grieve was happy with it. (Although Grieve would of course never be happy with any Brexit, such is his bodily fusion to the EU and All Its Works......)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    edited October 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?
    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.

    The right wing press will give him a free pass . They have to have their poster boy shown as a winner who defied the evil EU and won .

    A deal at least gives me a bit more time to sort out my dual nationality and get my EU passport . Thank heavens I have an escape route .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    nico67 said:

    Apparently the level playing field provisions on workers rights aren’t in this deal . Good luck if you’re a Labour MP and vote for that .

    Theres the hook to say no then. No worries of no deal after all.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?
    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
    Thats true but is irrelevant to whether it would be acceptable on it's own terms or not.

    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Pulpstar said:

    @kle4 How do you find so much sense ?

    I spoke sense? You'll need to tell me which post it was, I dont want that happening again.
  • Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by todays ultra woke standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
    It would be far more interesting to think ahead and try to imagine how todays heroes and leaders will be viewed in 50-100 years time. What are the issues they will be picked up on? I guess environment is most likely to be an issue.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    rcs1000 said:

    NYT: Charles Blow on Biden at debate - "Bless his heart. It feels like he’s just hanging on for dear life. At moments, it felt like he vanished, not just because it wasn’t his time to speak but because his aura of invincibility is flickering like a candle in a hurricane. But he yelled in his closing, so there’s that."

    Other columnists also gave him the thumbs down.

    Not looking good for the Dems at the moment.

    The problem the Dems have is that their leading moderate is not as mentally sharp as he once was.

    Yes, I know I take the piss out of @HYUFD, but he's absolutely right that the Biden of 2016 was a formidable candidate who would have hammered Trump.

    But Biden is four years older, and isn't (frankly) as coherent as he was then. His inability to count to three. His inability to think on his feet. His statements that he's going to abolish capital gains tax... no wait, he's going to increase it.

    He's a man who was once great, but is now rambling and only semi-coherent. Trump would absolutely hammer him.

    Which leads to one of two conclusions: if Biden fades before Iowa, then whichever moderate is ahead of him there is going to be going toe-to-tow with Warren. If Biden manages to hang on to second in Iowa, then I think Warren is going to wipe the floor with Biden over the course of the Primaries.

    My view is that Biden is losing ground in Iowa, has the least committed support, and doesn't have the ground organisation. I think that points to someone else winning there. And right now, Buttigieg is the guy making waves in Iowa.
    Despite our image of Iowa as being mostly excessively religious farmers, it's actually a lot more mixed with over 60% of its population in the urban areas such as Des Moines and Iowa City. I was in the latter a few weeks back, and by American standards it's a fairly cosmopolitan place. It is however a mostly white state.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited October 2019

    Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by todays ultra woke standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
    It would be far more interesting to think ahead and try to imagine how todays heroes and leaders will be viewed in 50-100 years time. What are the issues they will be picked up on? I guess environment is most likely to be an issue.
    Meat eater...that will exclude you for starters....ever drove a diesel....send them to hell....regular user of private jets...well thats as bad as being a slave owner back in the day.

    If one as a 16 year old sent a tweet saying there were only two genders...i think that will be a akin to the worst forms of racism from 100 years ago.
  • Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?
    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
    Thats true but is irrelevant to whether it would be acceptable on it's own terms or not.
    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.



    However, we do know one thing very clearly now: a bad deal is better than no deal. We all have to get used to this! Coming next: being rolled-over by the US!

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.

    It is indeed. So long as we aren't tied down by future commitments like the backstop then if we get it wrong now we are able to fix it in the future via tweaking it. Iterations I think it is @rcs1000 keeps referring to. I refer it as democracy - if the government screws up we can eject them and get a new one with a new plan.

    Don't let some idealised perfection be the enemy of what is good enough for now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    Cyclefree said:

    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?
    We know the answer to that. When someone else was proposing it he opposed it.

    The point of Brexit for Boris was to make him PM. Everyone else is being played.
    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.

    I see nothing turning that around either. Such action is what we the public want.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    rpjs said:

    rcs1000 said:

    NYT: Charles Blow on Biden at debate - "Bless his heart. It feels like he’s just hanging on for dear life. At moments, it felt like he vanished, not just because it wasn’t his time to speak but because his aura of invincibility is flickering like a candle in a hurricane. But he yelled in his closing, so there’s that."

    Other columnists also gave him the thumbs down.

    Not looking good for the Dems at the moment.

    The problem the Dems have is that their leading moderate is not as mentally sharp as he once was.

    Yes, I know I take the piss out of @HYUFD, but he's absolutely right that the Biden of 2016 was a formidable candidate who would have hammered Trump.

    But Biden is four years older, and isn't (frankly) as coherent as he was then. His inability to count to three. His inability to think on his feet. His statements that he's going to abolish capital gains tax... no wait, he's going to increase it.

    He's a man who was once great, but is now rambling and only semi-coherent. Trump would absolutely hammer him.

    Which leads to one of two conclusions: if Biden fades before Iowa, then whichever moderate is ahead of him there is going to be going toe-to-tow with Warren. If Biden manages to hang on to second in Iowa, then I think Warren is going to wipe the floor with Biden over the course of the Primaries.

    My view is that Biden is losing ground in Iowa, has the least committed support, and doesn't have the ground organisation. I think that points to someone else winning there. And right now, Buttigieg is the guy making waves in Iowa.
    Only Biden can beat Warren. Buttigieg will be toast if he ends up against her
    Disagree. I think Warren hammers Biden.

    In fact, I think everyone hammers Biden.

    Incoherence is not an attractive quality in a candidate.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,360

    Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by todays ultra woke standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
    It would be far more interesting to think ahead and try to imagine how todays heroes and leaders will be viewed in 50-100 years time. What are the issues they will be picked up on? I guess environment is most likely to be an issue.
    In the future it will require a video of the request and a video of the other giving consent before anyone can have sex without prosecution.

    We will be seen as a nation of rapists by those future standards.

    Plus we ate meat. Vile, vile people in the past.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    Bad luck for Brexiteers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47747945

    Brexit: Nigel Dodds 'would rather stay in the EU than risk union'
    errr thats from last March
    Has his attachement to the union weakened since then?
  • rpjs said:

    Porn blocker plan "dropped" https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-50073102

    I think that was nailed on once shagger got the keys to No. 10.

    Good news that we have a more libertarian PM than authoritarian May. The idea of a porn user database was utterrly horrific and would have never been secure indefinitely.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    nico67 said:

    OMG apparently the DUP are going back to no 10 tonight for more talks .

    they understand negotiation
    Bad luck for Brexiteers.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47747945

    Brexit: Nigel Dodds 'would rather stay in the EU than risk union'
    errr thats from last March
    Has his attachement to the union weakened since then?
    His understanding of what that commitment means might have, but I doubt it.
  • This thread has been cancelled like a gandhi statue at manchester uni...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    Cyclefree said:

    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.

    It is indeed. So long as we aren't tied down by future commitments like the backstop then if we get it wrong now we are able to fix it in the future via tweaking it. Iterations I think it is @rcs1000 keeps referring to. I refer it as democracy - if the government screws up we can eject them and get a new one with a new plan.

    Don't let some idealised perfection be the enemy of what is good enough for now.
    Democratic control is an error correcting mechanism; that is the point.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344

    Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by those of todays ultra woke individuals standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
    Come to that, the original Martin Luther might have problems.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    geoffw said:

    malcolmg said:

    Stocky said:

    Re Dan Hodges: Yes, Lab/SNP/LD MPs will do all they can to stop government securing a deal. Can`t let Tories get credit.

    They are against a deal and against no deal yet have the gaul to say that they are respecting the ref result.

    Pedant alert: gaul should be Gall
    Is the Gaul Dogmatix?
    Asterix more like
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Stephen Barclay said yesterday or today that this proposed deal was better than May's deal because people would vote for it. So its terms seem utterly irrelevant to him.

    Which is a very peculiar - indeed utterly negligent - way to approach such an important decision.

    But as Mr Meeks said the other day, we no longer value good administration in this country. It is, apparently, more important to get any old rubbish over the line to meet an arbitrary date than it is to get it right.

    It is indeed. So long as we aren't tied down by future commitments like the backstop then if we get it wrong now we are able to fix it in the future via tweaking it. Iterations I think it is @rcs1000 keeps referring to. I refer it as democracy - if the government screws up we can eject them and get a new one with a new plan.

    Don't let some idealised perfection be the enemy of what is good enough for now.
    Really. Your think the EU is going to allow iteration of this WA. Blimey!

    I take the opposite view. How we leave the EU is so important that we should take the effort to do it right. If that means we need an extra week, month, 3 months or whatever, take it. Saving Boris's face is of no importance whatever to the country. Leaving the EU well is.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited October 2019

    Cyclefree said:

    Is it time to replay this one?

    "Under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea or attenuate our union" - Boris Johnson, Belfast, 2 July 2019 pic.twitter.com/yTWhT5ZYBw

    — The Daily Politik (@DailyPolitik) October 16, 2019
    Do any of the Boris cheerleaders believe he would back this plan if anyone else was delivering it?

    Few Remainers or Lib Dems seem to care about what Chuka, Soubry or Heidi Allen said you get elected before voting down the deal 3 times and joining a party committed to revoke.

    Live by the sword and all that
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    malcolmg said:

    geoffw said:

    malcolmg said:

    Stocky said:

    Re Dan Hodges: Yes, Lab/SNP/LD MPs will do all they can to stop government securing a deal. Can`t let Tories get credit.

    They are against a deal and against no deal yet have the gaul to say that they are respecting the ref result.

    Pedant alert: gaul should be Gall
    Is the Gaul Dogmatix?
    Asterix more like
    Top comics.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691

    Anorak said:

    Gandhi was a racist asshole who needs to be shunned, and his statues destroyed.

    Apparently.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/students-call-to-block-manchester-gandhi-statue-because-hes-racist-a4262711.html

    If we hold all of those from the past by those of todays ultra woke individuals standards literally nobody is going to pass their morality test. The likes of Martin Luther king certainly ain't going to.
    Come to that, the original Martin Luther might have problems.
    Any attempt to condemn those in the past by your standards today is, I think, daft. It is of course completely fair to say that 'Attilla the Hun' was a violent thug who killed thousands (no idea of the facts here, so just as an illustration), but I'm not sure its fair to say that he was a bad man. The facts are one thing, but the judgement is another.

    My judgement of Gandhi is that he was rather a good man. You can immediately throw that judgement in to the dustbin of history. What he did though is there to be judged anew by anyone that cares to look.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,691
    oh.. new thread :)

    Last!

    Plus last -1!

    Plus last -2!

    10/10 for rarity. 0/10 for intelligence.

    and now last -3!
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,947
    Cyclefree said:



    I take the opposite view. How we leave the EU is so important that we should take the effort to do it right. If that means we need an extra week, month, 3 months or whatever, take it. Saving Boris's face is of no importance whatever to the country. Leaving the EU well is.

    Then it won't happen at all. I've been involved in contentious negotiations in the EU professionally, and nobody does deals until just after the final final final final deadline, just because everybody expects the other side to concede first. You need to set a firm deadline and stick to it to get anything done at all.
This discussion has been closed.