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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON drops back into the 20s in latest Opinium poll for the

SystemSystem Posts: 11,703
edited November 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON drops back into the 20s in latest Opinium poll for the Observer

This post will be updated as more polling details come in

Read the full story here


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    Tory maj nailed on!

    Ed impeachment impending.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited November 2013
    tim said:

    The other parties need to keep Cameron in place

    Strange how Labour's social media strategy is to say Cameron's this, Cameron's that when attacking any and all Coalition supposed failings?

    One would suggest that's because Cameron is still a net positive asset to the Tories and hence this very clear co-ordinated effort to weaken his value to the blues? Including of course the oh so subtle efforts seen even on these hallowed threads.

    that or tim's right for once.

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited November 2013
    tim said:

    The other parties need to keep Cameron in place

    Indeed so, indeed so: good causes benefit from his outpolling Ed.

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Millibands tactics are working ...say nowt ..keep off the tv .. and polls go up...not by much tho..still Soaraway Labour
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    Uma Kumaran has been selected for Labour in Harrow East, an important target seat.

    Report from a few weeks ago:

    Http://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/a-daughter-of-sri-lankan-tamil-to-contest-for-labour-party-in-harrow-east/

    "A daughter of Sri Lankan Tamil Uma Kumaran is contesting to be the Labour Party’s Member of Parliament for the London Borough of Harrow.

    Kumaran was born in London and raised in Harrow, but says she comes from a strong and closely knit family from Sri Lanka.

    “My parents fled to Britain in the midst of a civil war, Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn worked tirelessly to help them settle here. They have since worked hard to rebuild their lives and raise a family in Harrow,” the Labour candidate says on her official website."
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited November 2013
    Does anyone want to take my bet that the Tories will be only 5% or less behind in ICM in their december monthly poll? Come on you red surgers?
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    Falkirk effect yet to kick in.
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    Falkirk effect yet to kick in.

    Wait for the impeachment!! Or indeed the public floggings.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    edited November 2013
    Interesting that the main shift seems to be about 2% from Tory to LD, could this be a reaction to Cameron's suggestion of 'permanent austerity', when he had previously suggested austerity was only required until the public finances had been restored? Clegg cleverly then positioned himself between a Tory right ideologically committed to slashing public services and a Labour left committed to spending without limit. Indeed, I may make such a switch myself
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    tim said:

    tim said:

    The other parties need to keep Cameron in place

    Strange how Labour's social media strategy is to say Cameron's this, Cameron's that when attacking any and all Coalition supposed failings?

    One would suggest that's because Cameron is still a net positive asset to the Tories and hence this very clear co-ordinated effort to weaken his value to the blues? Including of course the oh so subtle efforts seen even on these hallowed threads.

    that or tim's right for once.

    Maria Hutchings polled quite well among the remaining 25% of people who ended up voting Tory too.
    SQUIRREL!
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    tim said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that the main shift seems to be about 2% from Tory to LD, could this be a reaction to Cameron's suggestion of 'permanent austerity', when he had previously suggested austerity was only required until the public finances had been restored? Clegg cleverly then positioned himself between a Tory right ideologically committed to slashing public services and a Labour left committed to spending without limit. Indeed, I may make such a switch myself

    Perhaps there are some green Tories who Cameron has annoyed by exposing his fake persona to be fake, or not fake, or double fake.
    You know what I mean.


    One would suggest that's because Cameron is still a net positive asset to the Tories and hence this very clear co-ordinated effort to weaken his value to the blues? Including of course the oh so subtle efforts seen even on these hallowed threads.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    A solid result for UKIP on 16%. They're getting 43% of the Labour share in this poll.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,316
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting that the main shift seems to be about 2% from Tory to LD, could this be a reaction to Cameron's suggestion of 'permanent austerity', when he had previously suggested austerity was only required until the public finances had been restored? Clegg cleverly then positioned himself between a Tory right ideologically committed to slashing public services and a Labour left committed to spending without limit. Indeed, I may make such a switch myself

    No - I'd be surprised if even 1% of the public are even aware of Clegg's recent "positioning".

    There's no sign of any LD upsurge across all pollsters.

    The Lab lead is widening because people aren't (yet) feeling any better off and Miliband has caught a populist mood with his energy freeze.

    Pretty obvious I think that the Government is going to have to do something popular in the Autumn Statement.

    And they may be able to - without any changes the deficit may be on track to come in about £15bn under forecast.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    edited November 2013
    Tim Indeed, Cameron is not only now losing Thatcherites and old colonels to UKIP by the dozen, but now it would seem 'one nation' moderate Tories who would seem to be his natural constituency are moving to the LDs. Indeed, even Matthew Parris, normally a loyalist, was warning Cameron today to listen to Major and not abandon the centre ground. If the right distrust Cameron and the centre now start to distrust Cameron, and the left of course have always loathed Cameron who does that leave him? Maybe a gay, Old Etonian investment banker in Notting Hill?
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    F1: in Q1 Bottas was 1st, and Maldonado 18th. Pretty surprising divergence in speed.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    Surbiton (previous thread) Finland selects at 16, Sweden does not select, although it has free schools and a few private boarding schools attended by the likes of the Royal Family
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,895
    edited November 2013
    I have to admit that I can't understand todays cartoon by Martin Rowson. Is it Hunt on the bed?

    "http://www.theguardian.com/politics/cartoon/2013/nov/16/martin-rowson-comment-cartoon"
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Jacky Crawford selected for Labour in Brigg & Goole, the party's number 86 target where they require a swing of 6%, equivalent to a national lead of about 5%:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yzrjcvrlZs
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    HYUFD said:

    Tim Indeed, Cameron is not only now losing Thatcherites and old colonels to UKIP by the dozen, but now it would seem 'one nation' moderate Tories who would seem to be his natural constituency are moving to the LDs. Indeed, even Matthew Parris, normally a loyalist, was warning Cameron today to listen to Major and not abandon the centre ground. If the right distrust Cameron and the centre now start to distrust Cameron, and the left of course have always loathed Cameron who does that leave him? Maybe a gay, Old Etonian investment banker in Notting Hill?

    Why would a left-wing Tory have any objection to Cameron ( other than his being to the left of them?)
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    F1: Bottas appears to have had his Ready Brek. 0.04s off of Hamilton right now.
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    If this trend continues there is a possibility of Tory jumping ship to the Kippers.

    It won't be Carswell though as he is too gutless
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2013
    After all the anti Cameron blather on here.. Hideaway Ed is still crap.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    What I said about Farage's back operation this morning on PB, now confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24972028

    Said to be in serious pain!
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    compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    edited November 2013
    Yet another polling company showing the Labour lead increasing.

    I blame Falkirk!

    PB Hodges keep up the good work.

    I believe you may find a subsection in there that shows that more of the electorate thinks Cameron makes better cup cakes than Red Ed, so the headline figure is irrelevant.

    Tic Toc Tic Toc!
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I believe if there was a GE tomorrow the Conservatives would score 28 and Ukip 16%.

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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I predict that if and when he leads the Tories to this defeat, having never achieved a majority, he will go down as one of the most reviled Tory leaders in history: on a par with Heath. Sure, he will be wheeled out as an elder statesman like Major is now, but Tories will loathe him as a Loser. Everyone else will ignore him.

    He'll be famous for the nuclear power contract. Even by HMG standards that's an awful deal.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    What I said about Farage's back operation this morning on PB, now confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24972028

    Said to be in serious pain!

    There's a waiting list to operate on him

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10337476/Romanian-doctors-suffering-racist-attacks-because-of-Ukips-rhetoric-says-ambassador.html
    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    What I said about Farage's back operation this morning on PB, now confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24972028

    Said to be in serious pain!

    There's a waiting list to operate on him

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10337476/Romanian-doctors-suffering-racist-attacks-because-of-Ukips-rhetoric-says-ambassador.html
    You and the ambassador are rather pathetic with your racial slurs.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Our Romanian doctors mostly agree with UKIP. Allow people such as themselves in when there are definite job offers, but keep out the Roma.

    Indeed they are more vociferous in their desire to keep the Roma out than any Briton that I have met!
    tim said:

    MikeK said:

    What I said about Farage's back operation this morning on PB, now confirmed.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24972028

    Said to be in serious pain!

    There's a waiting list to operate on him

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10337476/Romanian-doctors-suffering-racist-attacks-because-of-Ukips-rhetoric-says-ambassador.html
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    If this trend continues there is a possibility of Tory jumping ship to the Kippers.

    It won't be Carswell though as he is too gutless

    Carswell is not gutless. The reason he would not join UKIP is because he is so far apart from them on so many things. He has an extensive, well considered philosophy and many very good ideas of how to reform democracy and make it more accountable (of which leaving the EU is only a small part) and how to transform our society. Much of it is a long way from UKIP ideas.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    SeanF Because this week Cameron called for 'permanent austerity' rather than his previous statements calling only to balance the budget. Hence the movement in this poll from the Tories to the LDs
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Another crisis resurgent?

    Mark Tyrrell UKIP ‏@MarkTyrrellUKIP

    Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan: “There is no country named Cyprus”
    < Cameron wants Turkey in EU http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2013/11/12/turkish-pm-erdogan-there-is-no-country-named-cyprus/
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    Labour selections today

    Harrow East: Uma Kumaran (she beat Amina Ali, Helen Dennis and Ellie Southwood)
    Brigg & Goole: Jackie Crawford

    5 Labour targets still have to select a PPC: Keighley (Nov 23), Kingswood (December 7 after the original PPC was forced to resign), Brent Central (Dec 7), Cleethorpes (also underway) and Bradford East.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tim Indeed, Cameron is not only now losing Thatcherites and old colonels to UKIP by the dozen, but now it would seem 'one nation' moderate Tories who would seem to be his natural constituency are moving to the LDs. Indeed, even Matthew Parris, normally a loyalist, was warning Cameron today to listen to Major and not abandon the centre ground. If the right distrust Cameron and the centre now start to distrust Cameron, and the left of course have always loathed Cameron who does that leave him? Maybe a gay, Old Etonian investment banker in Notting Hill?

    Why would a left-wing Tory have any objection to Cameron ( other than his being to the left of them?)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    edited November 2013
    SeanT But even Heath and Major won an election with an overall majority, Cameron could not even do that. Heath and Major also spent some time in the real world and did not have anything like Cameron's privileged background. It is still not impossible he can scrape home, after all Ed M and Balls are about as unappealing an opposition as you can get, but I would say the best Cameron can now hope for is a majority of about 4 (and that is if everything goes right for him from now on)
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    If this trend continues there is a possibility of Tory jumping ship to the Kippers.

    It won't be Carswell though as he is too gutless

    Carswell is not gutless. The reason he would not join UKIP is because he is so far apart from them on so many things. He has an extensive, well considered philosophy and many very good ideas of how to reform democracy and make it more accountable (of which leaving the EU is only a small part) and how to transform our society. Much of it is a long way from UKIP ideas.
    And much of it is a long way from Tory ideas.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    That remark barely registered on here. It would not have shifted votes in the real world.

    If there is a Labour recovery and a Tory drop then it is about Labour singing from yhe same hymnnsheet, and the Tories not. It has little to do with the particular hymn.

    HYUFD said:

    SeanF Because this week Cameron called for 'permanent austerity' rather than his previous statements calling only to balance the budget. Hence the movement in this poll from the Tories to the LDs

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    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.

    But Pro-EU is such an endangered species these days I am not sure your abdication will make any real difference to the result. Certainly it is tiny compared to the loss to UKIP
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    If this trend continues there is a possibility of Tory jumping ship to the Kippers.

    It won't be Carswell though as he is too gutless

    Carswell is not gutless. The reason he would not join UKIP is because he is so far apart from them on so many things. He has an extensive, well considered philosophy and many very good ideas of how to reform democracy and make it more accountable (of which leaving the EU is only a small part) and how to transform our society. Much of it is a long way from UKIP ideas.
    And much of it is a long way from Tory ideas.

    I agree. One of the reasons I like him so much.
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    Staffordshire Moorlands CLP chose Trudie McGuiness
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Staffordshire Moorlands CLP chose Trudie McGuiness

    I was just about to say it's interesting that Western Isles, Filton, Staffs Moorlands, Portsmouth North aren't official Labour targets.
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    HYUFD said:

    SeanT But even Heath and Major won an election with an overall majority, Cameron could not even do that. Heath and Major also spent some time in the real world and did not have anything like Cameron's privileged background. It is still not impossible he can scrape home, after all Ed M and Balls are about as unappealing an opposition as you can get, but I would say the best Cameron can now hope for is a majority of about 4 (and that is if everything goes right for him from now on)

    HYUFD - In all seriousness I cannot see where Cameron can go. The only way I can see this going his way is a serious Labour implosion which just wont happen. If it is anything to do with Miliband they will just withdraw him from view. So he is left with two options. Move to the right and try and return some of their UKIP vote which will harden the Lib Dem switchers to Labour and the Lib Dems themselves and may turn off the Labour switchers who have gone to UKIP. Move to the centre and he strengthens the UKIP vote. The economy is not helping him as only a small proportion are seeing the benefits, and even this is causing him problems as the focus groups say people believe this is being manufactured on purpose to help a certain section of society. He is in between a rock and a hard place.....not that I am complaining.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    SeanT Churchill went to Harrow (albeit not Eton)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited November 2013
    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.

    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.

    But Pro-EU is such an endangered species these days I am not sure your abdication will make any real difference to the result. Certainly it is tiny compared to the loss to UKIP
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    edited November 2013
    FoxInSox It certainly would have registered more than scepticism about the EU. In middle of the road Middle England they see the need to solve the deficit, that does not mean they want endless library closures, cuts to social care and the police and armed forces. The only movement in this poll is Tory to LD (note not Labour or UKIP) this week, there is no other explanation
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    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.


    No they are not. This is the myth the main parties keep pushing and is one of the main reasons Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010. The middle ground is far too crowded and the number of voters available there far too few. Look to the 30-40% of the electorate who don't vote or who are voting for minor parties and find out what they have to say if you want to win the next election.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,316
    I see hysteria is breaking out on here again tonight.

    Cameron has been party leader for 8 years. Now for much of that time the Conservatives have done well in the polls and for some of it they have done poorly.

    But Cameron has been posh throughout. So Cameron being posh is not the reason the Conservatives have been doing poorly in the last 4 to 6 weeks. The reason is Miliband's energy freeze.

    Several Conservative supporters are just falling into tim's trap. tim knows that Labour's best chance is for Cameron to be removed and for there to be a massive row and upheaval in the Conservative party.

    So tim posts 10,000 times that's it's all about Cameron being posh - just like parents telling a kid something 10,000 times - if it's said enough times some people actually start to believe it.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Solving the deficit and getting back to a tolerable debt will require long term austerity. My dept an hospital is sufferring from austerity; I am not speaking from some Surry pile.

    More likely the decision to close Portsmouth Shipyard to pander to Scottish voters would have annoyed English voters without any discernible electoral advantage in Scotland.
    HYUFD said:

    FoxInSox It certainly would have registered more than scepticism about the EU. In middle of the road Middle England they see the need to solve the deficit, that does not mean they want endless library closures, cuts to social care and the police and armed forces

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cameron deserves credit for telling the truth about austerity IMO. Promising jam tomorrow would have been the easy option.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    HYUFD said:

    SeanF Because this week Cameron called for 'permanent austerity' rather than his previous statements calling only to balance the budget. Hence the movement in this poll from the Tories to the LDs

    Obviously, I think the Conservatives erred in choosing Cameron, but wasn't that a statement of obvious from him? The days of lavish public spending aren't coming back

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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962

    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.

    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.

    But Pro-EU is such an endangered species these days I am not sure your abdication will make any real difference to the result. Certainly it is tiny compared to the loss to UKIP

    Pro-europeanism isn't the middle ground
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    F1: the pre-race piece will be up tomorrow, probably.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962

    If this trend continues there is a possibility of Tory jumping ship to the Kippers.

    It won't be Carswell though as he is too gutless

    Carswell is not gutless. The reason he would not join UKIP is because he is so far apart from them on so many things. He has an extensive, well considered philosophy and many very good ideas of how to reform democracy and make it more accountable (of which leaving the EU is only a small part) and how to transform our society. Much of it is a long way from UKIP ideas.
    And much of it is a long way from Tory ideas.

    I agree. One of the reasons I like him so much.
    Carswell's a solid guy.

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    Post will be updated at 1930 with the ComRes figures.

    Not good for CON
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Both major parties have departed the middle ground, and with the LDs tainted it leaves a lot of unsettled voters.

    Blair won from the centre, Major won from the centre, even Mrs T won her first election with a centrist platform.

    The way of UKIP is the mirror of Foot in 1983; the way to put the other party in power for a generation. Follow it if you think that is the acceptable price of removing Cameron.

    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.


    No they are not. This is the myth the main parties keep pushing and is one of the main reasons Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010. The middle ground is far too crowded and the number of voters available there far too few. Look to the 30-40% of the electorate who don't vote or who are voting for minor parties and find out what they have to say if you want to win the next election.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    tim said:

    Labour selections today

    Harrow East: Uma Kumaran (she beat Amina Ali, Helen Dennis and Ellie Southwood)
    Brigg & Goole: Jackie Crawford


    Two things if she wins, first she removes the vile homophobic bigoted hypocrite Bob Blackman from the house

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249028/Bob-Blackman-Tory-MP-leading-crusade-safeguard-traditional-marriage-11-year-affair-wifes-back.html

    Secondly she'll win the most attractive MP contest by a distance
    Not if the Conservative PPC for Harrow West wins.

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    AndyJS said:

    Cameron deserves credit for telling the truth about austerity IMO. Promising jam tomorrow would have been the easy option.

    Yet the government remains one of the most fiscally profligate in peacetime history.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I

    In an era of increasing and evermore obvious social immobility the Tories, more than any other party, HAVE to show they are open to all - but at the moment they are led by poshos. This is the core of their problem.

    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    And Osborne is a decent Chancellor: who has - whatever you might claim - given the UK the best growth in the G7, as of now, and kept unemployment stable (it's now falling quickly). He steered the Treasury quite well when it was facing total wreckage just three years ago, thanks to Labour.

    The trouble is both of them are utterly terrible at day-to-day ruthless ordinary politics (this is where Miliband thrives) and both of them are, by nature, ludicrously posh and detached, so posh and detached they are unable to see how posh and detached they appear to everyone else, and thus they blunder, continuously, on things like the pasty tax, or get horribly outflanked on energy prices.

    NO MORE F*CKING ETONIANS.

    The Tories REALLY need to learn this lesson. Their last successful posh male prime minister was Macmillan, HALF A CENTURY AGO, back when we had a bloody Empire, and even he wasn't that successful.

    NO. MORE. PUBLIC. SCHOOLBOYS.

    End.
    David Davis would have been far better.

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    Both major parties have departed the middle ground, and with the LDs tainted it leaves a lot of unsettled voters.

    Blair won from the centre, Major won from the centre, even Mrs T won her first election with a centrist platform.

    The way of UKIP is the mirror of Foot in 1983; the way to put the other party in power for a generation. Follow it if you think that is the acceptable price of removing Cameron.


    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.


    No they are not. This is the myth the main parties keep pushing and is one of the main reasons Cameron failed to win a majority in 2010. The middle ground is far too crowded and the number of voters available there far too few. Look to the 30-40% of the electorate who don't vote or who are voting for minor parties and find out what they have to say if you want to win the next election.
    But your definition of 'middle ground' is now a minority extremist position.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    Fox For a while, not 'permanently' as Cameron said. The shipyard issue would not have resonated outside Portsmouth
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Both the LibDems and Labour favour staying in the EU. It is also the policy of the Greens, SNP and even the Conservative party. It is not an extreme minority opinion.
    Sean_F said:

    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.

    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.

    But Pro-EU is such an endangered species these days I am not sure your abdication will make any real difference to the result. Certainly it is tiny compared to the loss to UKIP

    Pro-europeanism isn't the middle ground
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    tim said:



    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    And Osborne is a decent Chancellor: who has - whatever you might claim - given the UK the best growth in the G7, as of now, and kept unemployment stable (it's now falling quickly). He steered the Treasury quite well when it was facing total wreckage just three years ago, thanks to Labour.

    The trouble is both of them are utterly terrible at day-to-day ruthless ordinary politics (this is where Miliband thrives) and both of them are, by nature, ludicrously posh and detached, so posh and detached they are unable to see how posh and detached they appear to everyone else, and thus they blunder, continuously, on things like the pasty tax, or get horribly outflanked on energy prices.

    NO MORE F*CKING ETONIANS.

    The Tories REALLY need to learn this lesson. Their last successful posh male prime minister was Macmillan, HALF A CENTURY AGO, back when we had a bloody Empire, and even he wasn't that successful.

    NO. MORE. PUBLIC. SCHOOLBOYS.

    End.
    David Davis would have been far better.

    I can't think of many questions where "David Davis would have been far better" is a valid answer. ;-)

    Not that I'm particularly against Davis: I agree with some of what he says, although not always the way he says it. I just think he would have been a poor leader. How he'd have compared to Cameron as party leader is an interesting debate, and similar to the Ed versus David one for Labour, but without the familial resonances.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    SeanF No it is a change, before the election he said the deficit would be solved by 2015, in 2011 he said the cuts were difficult, but necessary but not for ever
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    C1 He has to win back votes from UKIP and some centrist LDs from 2010 for a majority
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    SeanT said:

    I agree. In retrospect. Supposedly he has some troublesome backstory, but he would, I reckon, have beaten Brown.

    Unlike Cameron, Davis also has some principles, including a strong commitment to the liberty of the subject.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sean_F said:

    tim said:

    Labour selections today

    Harrow East: Uma Kumaran (she beat Amina Ali, Helen Dennis and Ellie Southwood)
    Brigg & Goole: Jackie Crawford


    Two things if she wins, first she removes the vile homophobic bigoted hypocrite Bob Blackman from the house

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249028/Bob-Blackman-Tory-MP-leading-crusade-safeguard-traditional-marriage-11-year-affair-wifes-back.html

    Secondly she'll win the most attractive MP contest by a distance
    Not if the Conservative PPC for Harrow West wins.

    She would also be the first Tamil to be elected, and the first Hindu woman in Parliament. She might also be the youngest MP - her age doesn't seem to be available at the moment.
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    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I

    In an era of increasing and evermore obvious social immobility the Tories, more than any other party, HAVE to show they are open to all - but at the moment they are led by poshos. This is the core of their problem.

    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    And Osborne is a decent Chancellor: who has - whatever you might claim - given the UK the best growth in the G7, as of now, and kept unemployment stable (it's now falling quickly). He steered the Treasury quite well when it was facing total wreckage just three years ago, thanks to Labour.

    The trouble is both of them are utterly terrible at day-to-day ruthless ordinary politics (this is where Miliband thrives) and both of them are, by nature, ludicrously posh and detached, so posh and detached they are unable to see how posh and detached they appear to everyone else, and thus they blunder, continuously, on things like the pasty tax, or get horribly outflanked on energy prices.

    NO MORE F*CKING ETONIANS.

    The Tories REALLY need to learn this lesson. Their last successful posh male prime minister was Macmillan, HALF A CENTURY AGO, back when we had a bloody Empire, and even he wasn't that successful.

    NO. MORE. PUBLIC. SCHOOLBOYS.

    End.
    David Davis would have been far better.

    I think with every day that passes more and more people are now realising that. Imagine how Tim would be struggling trying to find a meme to attack the Tories if they were led by a grandson of a prominent communist who grew up on a council estate in a single parent family.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,316
    Remember what Portillo said - having an EU referendum is going to result in us going even more INTO the EU because:

    1) "Stay in" will undoubtedly win the referendum and then, more importantly:

    2) Having voted to "Stay in" it will be much EASIER to integrate us more deeply into the EU without much resistance.

    Idiots. People are unbelievably stupid.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It resonated heavily with those in the Armed Forces in general, and the Navy in particar. These people and their families are a fairly substantal block. UKIP is pro armed forces and will have picked up the majority of those disgruntled.

    "Permenant Austerity" did not register, whatever its merits.
    HYUFD said:

    Fox For a while, not 'permanently' as Cameron said. The shipyard issue would not have resonated outside Portsmouth

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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Both major parties have departed the middle ground, and with the LDs tainted it leaves a lot of unsettled voters.

    Blair won from the centre, Major won from the centre, even Mrs T won her first election with a centrist platform.

    Maybe the centre ground now is different - and increasingly so - from the centre ground during the biggest credit bubble in history (1998-2008) - hence the moderniser/cameroon problem. The Tories adapted to the illusionary credit bubble economy just before it all blew up.

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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    ComRes puts Tory + UKIP on 45%, the same share Thatcher polled in 1979 when the right was united behind a single party.

    Edit: it's actually 46%.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Labour ..still rocketing off into deep space by a full 6 points ..awesome.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061
    Off-topic:

    Some potential problems with the first Sony Playstation 4's sold, particularly with the HDMI port:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/15/playstation_4_on_sale_complaints/

    Hardly unexpected, and we can expect similar from XBox One's release next week, especially with Microsoft's travails on the 360.

    Also unexpectedly, the media will play heavily on any problems, perhaps spinning them out of proportion.

    The curse of the (very) early adopter...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    Fox Rubbish. Permanent austerity resonated with anyone who uses a library, has elderly relatives in social care, uses or is a legal aid lawyer, works as a teacher or a nurse, or a policeman or indeed in the armed forces which has also been cut. The dock announcement anyway was made on 6th Nov anyway, 10 days ago, the austerity announcement last week ie in the range of this poll
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    In any case, the move in this poll is Tory to LD not Tory to UKIP
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,316
    People kidding themselves as ever - Conservatives thinking Davis would have done better than Cameron is no different to Labour voters thinking how brilliant Michael Foot would have been.

    No, Davis would not have won a majority.

    But if, somehow, he had become PM he wouldn't have legalised Gay Marriage - which is, I suspect, of much more concern to many of those Davis supporters.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sh1t polls for Labour too - 35 and 37 at this stage.

    The public hate everyone.
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    Completely OT but there is a great advert being shown at the moment trying to get people to think about lung cancer symptoms. If you haven't seen it it has Alex Ferguson finishing up with asking 'who wouldn't want a bit of extra time'.

    Not been a great fan of Ferguson in the past but kudos to him for doing the advert and putting in a bit of self ribbing which is bound to help get the advert talked about more widely.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Interesting meme developing on this thread.

    "Cameron has been really good at everything, but he is posh he can't win..

    Much better to have a non-posho, even if he was total crap."

    Let's climb into the wayback machine, and see what happened when Labour gave the crown to someone with a 'good' back story. Gordon Brown, the worst PM in living memory, and possibly of all time.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    So you agree that Euroscepticism is a minority position? And that what you call europragmatism is well supported?

    The swivel eyed loons may dominate the Telegraph comments but that is not equivalent to the electorate.

    As an Orange book LD I suspect that I am in a small minority, possibly 5%; but being in a minority is not the same as being wrong.

    UKIP are the polar opposite of Militant 30 years ago. History repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce.

    UKIP will put Miliband and Balls in Downing st, as surely as Militant kept Mrs T in power in 83 and 87.
    SeanT said:

    Both the LibDems and Labour favour staying in the EU. It is also the policy of the Greens, SNP and even the Conservative party. It is not an extreme minority opinion.


    Sean_F said:

    I don't claim to speak for the majority, mine is a minority view. In a close fought election squeezing the LibDem vote in Midland marginals may well matter more than converting an enormous Tory majority to a smaller majority in some South East seat where UKIP becomes the second party.

    Elections are won in the middle ground.

    I suppose it is socially liberal, pro europe people like me that are being lost to the libdems. I voted Tory in 2010, but will not next time. It is not Cameron that I dislike, he is rather innocuous, it is the swivel eyed loons in the wings that I would not want in power.

    But Pro-EU is such an endangered species these days I am not sure your abdication will make any real difference to the result. Certainly it is tiny compared to the loss to UKIP

    Pro-europeanism isn't the middle ground
    The middle ground position of VOTERS is, at best, resigned euro pragmatism, or euro apathy. A very large minority would be outright eurosceptic. Only a tiny minority of pitiful liberal spunk stains would eagerly admit to being 'pro European', maybe 3% of the electorate.

    General Elections are not won by Persuading the pitiful three percenters.
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    Evening all,

    Both major parties have departed the middle ground, and with the LDs tainted it leaves a lot of unsettled voters.

    Blair won from the centre, Major won from the centre, even Mrs T won her first election with a centrist platform.


    Blair deserted the left (Clause IV) and lost 4 million votes in 8 years. Major deserted the right and lost 5 million votes in 5 years. Thatcher occupied the centre ground from the right and maintained her voter base and gave Major the largest voter legacy in UK political history.

    You can't win elections by making the centre ground your heartland and if you try to you will turn it into the no man's land wasteland between the two sides of the 'war' (just ask the Libdems). The way to do it is how Thatcher did it which is to occupy the centre ground whilst remaining firmly rooted in your traditional heartlands.

    Cameron has deserted the right in far more ways than Major did (and is politically inept to boot). How many votes will he lose?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Interesting meme developing on this thread.

    "Cameron has been really good at everything, but he is posh he can't win..

    Much better to have a non-posho, even if he was total crap."

    Let's climb into the wayback machine, and see what happened when Labour gave the crown to someone with a 'good' back story. Gordon Brown, the worst PM in living memory, and possibly of all time.

    Ridiculous stuff Scott - there is no possibly about it. Brown was hyped to the max and was simply dreadful - borderline unfit for office - quite possibly not sane.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    AndyJS But some of those UKIP voters may well have voted Labour in the eighties
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Andrew_ComRes: ComRes/IoS/S Mirror: "I can imagine Ed M as PM" agree 25% disagree 53% inc 21% of Lab voters who disagree http://t.co/0iXnvXfpMP
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    HYUFD said:

    Fox Rubbish. Permanent austerity resonated with anyone who uses a library, has elderly relatives in social care, uses or is a legal aid lawyer, works as a teacher or a nurse, or a policeman or indeed in the armed forces which has also been cut. The dock announcement anyway was made on 6th Nov anyway, 10 days ago, the austerity announcement last week ie in the range of this poll

    The problem is that austerity is likely to be permanent. We aren't going to see living standards doubling every 30 years any time soon, for all the reasons given on David Herdson's thread.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:


    Ridiculous stuff Scott - there is no possibly about it. Brown was hyped to the max and was simply dreadful - borderline unfit for office - quite possibly not sane.

    Just a gentle reminder of that to the 'David "resigned for no good reason" Davis would have been brilliant' brigade...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    MikeL said:

    People kidding themselves as ever - Conservatives thinking Davis would have done better than Cameron is no different to Labour voters thinking how brilliant Michael Foot would have been.

    No, Davis would not have won a majority.

    But if, somehow, he had become PM he wouldn't have legalised Gay Marriage - which is, I suspect, of much more concern to many of those Davis supporters.

    He would have done better among C1/C2 voters than Cameron does.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited November 2013
    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I

    In an era of increasing and evermore obvious social immobility the Tories, more than any other party, HAVE to show they are open to all - but at the moment they are led by poshos. This is the core of their problem.

    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    End.
    He seems to be making an epic twit of himself in Sri Lanka, losing a fight that no one asked him to start or is interested in. Syria redux.

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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The Falkirk effect is deepening !!
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    Evening all,

    Both major parties have departed the middle ground, and with the LDs tainted it leaves a lot of unsettled voters.

    Blair won from the centre, Major won from the centre, even Mrs T won her first election with a centrist platform.


    Blair deserted the left (Clause IV) and lost 4 million votes in 8 years. Major deserted the right and lost 5 million votes in 5 years. Thatcher occupied the centre ground from the right and maintained her voter base and gave Major the largest voter legacy in UK political history.

    You can't win elections by making the centre ground your heartland and if you try to you will turn it into the no man's land wasteland between the two sides of the 'war' (just ask the Libdems). The way to do it is how Thatcher did it which is to occupy the centre ground whilst remaining firmly rooted in your traditional heartlands.

    Cameron has deserted the right in far more ways than Major did (and is politically inept to boot). How many votes will he lose?

    Absolutely right.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ishmael_X said:

    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I

    In an era of increasing and evermore obvious social immobility the Tories, more than any other party, HAVE to show they are open to all - but at the moment they are led by poshos. This is the core of their problem.

    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    End.
    He seems to be making an epic twat of himself in Sri Lanka, losing a fight that no one asked him to start or is interested in. Syria redux.

    You asked any Sri Lankans ? Or is that just the view from behind your latte in the west ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Andrew_ComRes: ComRes/IoS/S Mirror: 24% say opinion of Ed M has become more positive recently, 29% say more negative http://t.co/NbpHyh0BlJ
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,161
    Fox yes, but that does not mean public services have to be slashed to the bone either, Clegg hit the right note, no more bottomless Labour public spending, but no Tory slashing for slashing's sake either, hence the LD rise in the polls and the Tory fall. Anyway, off to see Gravity
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    If I were Labour I would be relieved to see the lead increasing. I would also be very worried that the increase of the lead in these polls is created by Labour adding 0 percent to the VI number. Those are soft increases not hard commitment to Labour.

    It goes without saying Tory party shouldn't celebrate a dip, but a dip, as government is better than no increase for the opposition.
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    Life_ina_market_townLife_ina_market_town Posts: 2,319
    edited November 2013
    Scott_P said:

    Just a gentle reminder of that to the 'David "resigned for no good reason" Davis would have been brilliant' brigade...

    By his resignation, the Conservatives were forced to continue to oppose the authoritarian madness of detention without trial for 48 days which Brown was hell bent on introducing for political reasons. It is perfectly plausible, and indeed perhaps likely that the spineless Cameron would have otherwise caved in.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2013
    TGOHF said:

    Sh1t polls for Labour too - 35 and 37 at this stage.

    The public hate everyone.

    Labour must be struggling to reach 33% in England, where 85% of people live.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I cannot see that we are going to agree on this. It usually takes a week or two for news to filter through to polling trends.

    And anyone who thinks that there is a realistic alternative to permenant austerity is deluded enough to want to follow the Hollande path. Cameron was being honest, and like I said, it hardly registered in the news, while the shipyard closure did. There are a lot of forces and ex-forces people in the Tory inclined bloc, and they would not be happy.

    As far as Davis goes, he had so little charisma and support that Tory members and MPs jumped on the most plausible alternative, even though Cameron was an unknown at the time. Ken Clarke was another candidate at that contest, and he would have nailed Brown in 2010.



    HYUFD said:

    Fox Rubbish. Permanent austerity resonated with anyone who uses a library, has elderly relatives in social care, uses or is a legal aid lawyer, works as a teacher or a nurse, or a policeman or indeed in the armed forces which has also been cut. The dock announcement anyway was made on 6th Nov anyway, 10 days ago, the austerity announcement last week ie in the range of this poll

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,962
    Ishmael_X said:

    SeanT said:

    tim said:

    SeanT said:

    Cameron is, it seems, leading the Tories to a quite astonishing defeat, given than he has engineered a decent recovery - having received an appalling legacy from Labour - and is facing one of the most inept, unappetising Oppositions on record.

    I

    In an era of increasing and evermore obvious social immobility the Tories, more than any other party, HAVE to show they are open to all - but at the moment they are led by poshos. This is the core of their problem.

    I wouldn't have mattered as much if he hadn't insisted on surrounding himself with similarly chinless twits, I mean Osborne and Hunt are the other faces of the Tories at the moment, what's all that about?

    The strange thing is that Cameron is quite good as prime minister, when it comes to high politics - in the Bismarckian, statesmanlike sense. He did his best in Libya (much better than Blair in Iraq), he has fended off euro-horrors, he plays the PM on the world stage OK.

    End.
    He seems to be making an epic twit of himself in Sri Lanka, losing a fight that no one asked him to start or is interested in. Syria redux.

    To be fair, there is evidence that the Sri Lankan government carried out atrocities.

  • Options

    So you agree that Euroscepticism is a minority position? And that what you call europragmatism is well supported?

    The swivel eyed loons may dominate the Telegraph comments but that is not equivalent to the electorate.

    As an Orange book LD I suspect that I am in a small minority, possibly 5%; but being in a minority is not the same as being wrong.

    UKIP are the polar opposite of Militant 30 years ago. History repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce.

    UKIP will put Miliband and Balls in Downing st, as surely as Militant kept Mrs T in power in 83 and 87.


    Euroscepticism is in no way a minority position. Indeed the only reason that there is not a large majority for complete withdrawal right now is because plenty of people still believe that it is possible to return powers from the EU in any meaningful way. The numbers who actually want to stay in under the current arrangements are pitifully small.

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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    Interesting meme developing on this thread.

    "Cameron has been really good at everything, but he is posh he can't win..

    Much better to have a non-posho, even if he was total crap."

    Let's climb into the wayback machine, and see what happened when Labour gave the crown to someone with a 'good' back story. Gordon Brown, the worst PM in living memory, and possibly of all time.

    Ridiculous stuff Scott - there is no possibly about it. Brown was hyped to the max and was simply dreadful - borderline unfit for office - quite possibly not sane.

    Borderline, BORDERLINE????????

    Totally unfit and those craven muppets knew it and still elected him unopposed.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    anyone who thinks that there is a realistic alternative to permanent austerity is deluded enough to want to follow the Hollande path.

    Like these guys...

    @Andrew_ComRes: ComRes / IoS / S Mirror: net econ trust in Ed M and B -38 (-10), in Cam & Osb -27 (-6) http://t.co/Pq1vPfV6zr
This discussion has been closed.