It is totally wrong, we had a referendum, Brexit won, democracy must be followed. It is Politicians playing silly games that has got us into this position, but whatever, democracy must be followed.
There was a prospectus for the referendum, that prospectus has now been abandoned by its proponents. There is no mandate for no deal Brexit. It is completely inconsistent with the mandate sought.
Referendums don't given mandates to specific policies, not least because the people campaigning for them are not necessarily the ones implementing them.
The options on the ballot paper were Remain and Leave, and Leave won. That gives a mandate for everything from EEA+CU+SM+Schengen+etc through to a Drawbridge Brexit. It should be for parliament to sort that one out.
The way in which the referendum was fought is integral to what is politically permissible. Technically, the referendum was advisory only. In reality, ignoring it was a non-starter. Rightly, the government sought to implement the referendum and to do so in accordance with the way it was fought.
In the same way as claiming that the referendum was advisory only, claiming a mandate for something that was angrily dismissed by proponents throughout the campaign (and for a long time afterwards) because it is technically consistent with the ballot paper is preposterous.
It may be there is no specific mandate for no deal, and other things too, but in this world there are politically inevitable things, and operations of law. There are also ways to negotiate, and the government is taking the only way in the circumstances to try to get a deal given that the commons has rejected the first route. If that leads to no deal then a lot of MPs will have some soul searching to do, (though they won't).
There is not the slightest plausible evidence that the government is seeking a deal. Far from it: it is trashing the only deal that is currently available and making no steps to identify an alternative one.
There is no mandate for no deal. And since there is no mandate for no deal, a new mandate is required if the government is to lead the country down that path.
Where was the obsession with "mandate" when the government of the day ratified Lisbon without a manifesto despite their manifesto pledging the opposite?
How come the issue about "mandate" only occurs when its an issue that worries you?
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
So many things are now mostly online or can be made that way. In real life, mobile phones can be tracked, and facial recognition software is only getting more advanced.
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Those of us that have had the experience of bringing up children will know exactly how you feel. Yes, there is much to be said for letting them learn by experience, but not at the cost of letting them do themselves irretrievable harm.
David Herdson: There were *a lot* of very expensive pledges in his speech: - Free university tuition - Renationalisation of key industries - "Ending austerity" i.e. major increases in day-to-day spending
How will this all be paid for?
Answer: It'll be paid from the same magic money tree that Johnson is funding his pledges from.
Plus there's the 'Brexit dividend'.
The Johnson pledges are irresponsible enough, and not leaving without the disruption of No Deal would help, but it's an entire magic money forest Corbyn needs to pick to fund what he's promising.
It is called MMT - Modern Monetary Theory. If Corbyn wins then UK will be the testing laboratory for this new idea*, which basically involves printing money. US may follow if Dems win.
* Well, they say 'new' but I have a vague sense I've seen this one before.
Mayor Pete was quite good on the deficit these last couple of days. If he carries on like that he'll have no chance.
But I fear you may be right. It's that long since Britain's had proper inflation that the threat of its return may well be wished away as scaremongering or at the least, downplayed far too far.
"But the MMT people are just wrong in believing that the only question you need to ask about the budget deficit is whether it supplies the right amount of aggregate demand; financeability matters too, even with fiat money."
Blimey, Paul Krugman talking sense. Whatever next?
I wonder why he didn't understand what is now his own argument when he was supporting Gordon Brown's insane position of around 2010. I remember reading an article by him when he said bumping up UK government spending was fine because Denmark had successfully done so - completely ignoring both the difference in deficit and the difference in debt between the two countries.
There is not the slightest plausible evidence that the government is seeking a deal. Far from it: it is trashing the only deal that is currently available and making no steps to identify an alternative one.
There is no mandate for no deal. And since there is no mandate for no deal, a new mandate is required if the government is to lead the country down that path.
Where was the obsession with "mandate" when the government of the day ratified Lisbon without a manifesto despite their manifesto pledging the opposite?
How come the issue about "mandate" only occurs when its an issue that worries you?
The obsession with mandates comes from the death cult Leavers, who insist that the country must be hurled from the EU without a deal on that basis. But since there is no mandate, the idea of inflicting lasting harm on the country requires rather more than a Prime Minister who the country did not vote for leading a government that does not have a majority imposing a policy that the electorate has never had the chance to pass judgement on.
Yet politicians (mainly Labour) voted against the deal, how is that respecting the referendum result?
Always party before country for Labour. Always.
Labour must be following the splendid example given by Cameron and the Tory party. He called the Referendum for reasons of party advantage - no national interest there. This entire mess is down to him. Then Theresa May called the 2017 election for reasons of political gain - even though things did not go to plan.
I think May at the end genuinely was putting country before party. The 30 or so Labour backbenchers who (Who knows ?) support the deal should probably have compromised at that point (MV3). Clegg certainly put country above party when it came to the 2010-15 ministry. Johnson won't.
Good but worrying examples, Pulpstar. Neither May nor Clegg reaped much reward for putting the Country first.
Here's the thing, it doesn't tend to get rewarded at the ballot box. Voters like their parties first and foremost to stick it to THEM. The Tory ranks are not full of David Herdsons and Richard Nabavis and Labour isn't full of Southam Observers right now.
Mr. Surbiton, there's no modern day Deutschmark and the single currency is (from Germany's perspective) permanently weaker than it should be due to all those non-exporting powerhouses that are members. It's a very flawed comparison.
Referendums don't given mandates to specific policies, not least because the people campaigning for them are not necessarily the ones implementing them.
True for the 2016 referendum, but not as a general rule.
It's perfectly possible - indeed fairly common - to have a fully drafted piece of legislation and ask simply whether or not to sign the secondary legislation saying "this comes into effect on 1st January".
That obviously wasn't possible for the 2016 referendum, because the EU simply weren't going to negotiate a deal to leave on the basis Britain might leave - it'd be an awful waste of time and set a terrible precedent.
A second referendum could (and perhaps should) have been baked in from the start ("if you vote Leave, we'll negotiate and then put the Leave deal to you in a second referendum"). But Cameron didn't expect to lose, and also would have felt that such an arrangement would make a Leave vote more likely (and I suspect it would as it would have reduced the fear factor). And, given it wasn't baked in, I can see why Leavers now see it as sneaky whereas they'd probably have accepted it at the time.
Boris Johnson claimed in the run up to the 2016 vote that a leave vote followed by a poor deal could be followed by a decision to stay. Politics home has a link to Johnsons quote. It should be used against Johnson now given No Deal...
Yet politicians (mainly Labour) voted against the deal, how is that respecting the referendum result?
Always party before country for Labour. Always.
Labour must be following the splendid example given by Cameron and the Tory party. He called the Referendum for reasons of party advantage - no national interest there. This entire mess is down to him. Then Theresa May called the 2017 election for reasons of political gain - even though things did not go to plan.
I think 17.4 million people may well be more responsible.
They had a choice and chose to leave
No - they were not responsible for calling the Referendum in response to fear of UKIP.
There is not the slightest plausible evidence that the government is seeking a deal. Far from it: it is trashing the only deal that is currently available and making no steps to identify an alternative one.
There is no mandate for no deal. And since there is no mandate for no deal, a new mandate is required if the government is to lead the country down that path.
Where was the obsession with "mandate" when the government of the day ratified Lisbon without a manifesto despite their manifesto pledging the opposite?
How come the issue about "mandate" only occurs when its an issue that worries you?
The obsession with mandates comes from the death cult Leavers, who insist that the country must be hurled from the EU without a deal on that basis. But since there is no mandate, the idea of inflicting lasting harm on the country requires rather more than a Prime Minister who the country did not vote for leading a government that does not have a majority imposing a policy that the electorate has never had the chance to pass judgement on.
+1 Boris is mandateless. I spent 15 mins yesterday writing to No.10 critising No Deal. BJ will never see my letter but if enough pissed off people write to No.10 the penny might drop that no deal is unacceptabe....
Doesnt work because its missing the call back to a lost / stolen golden age that gives power to slogans like 'Take BACK control' and 'Make America Great AGAIN'. 'Take Control' and 'Make America Great' wouldn't have hooked the same mindset.
No deal means no implementation period. No implementation period means that there will be a hard border in Ireland. The UK and Irish governments have signed a binding treaty that there wont be a hard border.
Now what?
If the WA gets approved, what are we implementing up to 31st Dec 2020?
Yet politicians (mainly Labour) voted against the deal, how is that respecting the referendum result?
Always party before country for Labour. Always.
Labour must be following the splendid example given by Cameron and the Tory party. He called the Referendum for reasons of party advantage - no national interest there. This entire mess is down to him. Then Theresa May called the 2017 election for reasons of political gain - even though things did not go to plan.
I think May at the end genuinely was putting country before party. The 30 or so Labour backbenchers who (Who knows ?) support the deal should probably have compromised at that point (MV3). Clegg certainly put country above party when it came to the 2010-15 ministry. Johnson won't.
Good but worrying examples, Pulpstar. Neither May nor Clegg reaped much reward for putting the Country first.
I don't think either of them ever put the country first, both did it for their own naked ambitions.
Doesnt work because its missing the call back to a lost / stolen golden age that gives power to slogans like 'Take BACK control' and 'Make America Great AGAIN'. 'Take Control' and 'Make America Great' wouldn't have hooked the same mindset.
Boris Johnson lost control within the first few hours of becoming PM, when he said "the EU" could change the deal! Talk about clueless meeting hopless!
Doesnt work because its missing the call back to a lost / stolen golden age that gives power to slogans like 'Take BACK control' and 'Make America Great AGAIN'. 'Take Control' and 'Make America Great' wouldn't have hooked the same mindset.
Also may look very odd, when there is mass civil disorder over food rationing, med supply issues etc etc.
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
Malcolm, since when did a conversation on economics involve anyone who had a clue what they were talking about?
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
If anything the Euro slowed the DM's trajectory.
When people looked at how to sanely separate the Euro a few years back the only approach that worked is for Germany to leave allow their currency to appreciate the 20% or so it needs to move for the rest of the Euro zone to cope...
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
Oh shut up - so I misspelled Groat - Nice to see you take on the point again.
On topic, that's a manifesto speech from Corbyn. Is he expecting an election, in which case he's expecting VONC but no VOC for anyone, or does he want CCHQ to think he's expecting an election?
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
If I were you I'd be worried about how my Footsie tracker looks in Scottish Groat Pounds.
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
If anything the Euro slowed the DM's trajectory.
When people looked at how to sanely separate the Euro a few years back the only approach that worked is for Germany to leave allow their currency to appreciate the 20% or so it needs to move for the rest of the Euro zone to cope...
The point being that the parallel is inexact. Doesn't matter which way it would have influenced it (although I agree it would almost certainly have been stronger than the EZ as a whole).
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
On topic, that's a manifesto speech from Corbyn. Is he expecting an election, in which case he's expecting VONC but no VOC for anyone, or does he want CCHQ to think he's expecting an election?
Or does he want CCHQ to think that he wants them to think he's expecting an election?
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We aren't and never will be in the Eurozone - the Danish Kroner has operated in very tight bands against whatever the Germans use for a hundred years but Danes won't swap it for Euros
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Those of us that have had the experience of bringing up children will know exactly how you feel. Yes, there is much to be said for letting them learn by experience, but not at the cost of letting them do themselves irretrievable harm.
Out in the big wide world I just shrug and say you voted for it it’s not my problem and I’m not interested in discussing it any further.
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
I don't think anyone is seriously considering a grad tax of 10%. I would have thought 1% was more the planned amount.
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We aren't and never will be in the Eurozone - the Danish Kroner has operated in very tight bands against whatever the Germans use for a hundred years but Danes won't swap it for Euros
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We aren't and never will be in the Eurozone - the Danish Kroner has operated in very tight bands against whatever the Germans use for a hundred years but Danes won't swap it for Euros
Vestager as next Commission President and Denmark to join the Euro would be a good accumulator.
'This bowler hasn't conceded a run in this spell, has he?'
'Yes he has, he was hit for two fours in his last over!'
'Oh yes, forgot about those.'
No wonder Gloucestershire's commentators are a joke round the circuit!
I remember a radio football commentary years ago: "Whichever team is going to win this match has to score at least one goal." Such insight would find a place on PB.
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
I don't think anyone is seriously considering a grad tax of 10%. I would have thought 1% was more the planned amount.
It is 9% at present, when over the treshold income as I recall.
Mr. Doethur, still sounds inferior to a few years ago when the radio coverage of live F1 was interrupted for synchronised diving.
The surreal, unwitting comedy of it was such that I wasn't even mad. It was hilarious.
Synchronised diving. On the radio.
Silence. Splash. Applause. Repeat.
Sounds like a school sports day.
Ours was ruled unconstitutional for breaching the Eighth Amendment, but unfortunately the Supreme Court of the US has no jurisdiction in Staffordshire.
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
If I were you I'd be worried about how my Footsie tracker looks in Scottish Groat Pounds.
But you don't seem to care.
Independence at any cost is the motto.
If your thesis about groat pounds is what I imagine it is, your point is back to front; Malc's dollar earning, gbp priced tracker will buy enough groats to buy the Outer Hebrides outright, with enough over for a turnip supper and a Uber home.
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
I don't think anyone is seriously considering a grad tax of 10%. I would have thought 1% was more the planned amount.
It is 9% at present, when over the treshold income as I recall.
Yes but it's 9% capped. Much more sensible would be 0.5% on basic rate tax and 1% on higher.
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
I don't think anyone is seriously considering a grad tax of 10%. I would have thought 1% was more the planned amount.
I'd be happy to pay the 1% as it's a service I've used, but I'd also want to be exempt from paying tax to fund primary/secondary schools as I have no kids and went to a fee paying school, and health as I have private insurance.
I jest, but once you accept the "user pays" premise then why should some categories be taxed in this way and not others? Why should funding for secondary schools taken from general taxation when funding for universities is taken only from those who have used them?
Just call it a graduate tax and be done with it. I think you could also get away with a lower rate if it was always charged, rather than being a fixed amount to repay.
I would introduce a graduate tax that deliberately collects more than the loans* do, I think a government could spin it as fairer and gain wide support for it.
* Yes, I know it sort of is a tax anyway.
If everyone in the UK who has a degree has to pay an additional tax, it's rather easy to avoid that tax by leaving the country.
Of course you can leg it to avoid your debts, but it's not really a great plan long term, and I don't think many people would leave to avoid paying a bit more tax.
Why not? You're not avoiding your debts, you're choosing not to pay an additional tax.
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
I don't think anyone is seriously considering a grad tax of 10%. I would have thought 1% was more the planned amount.
Anyone who leaves the UK and fails to pay their student loan back should not be allowed back until they have paid what they owe, they knew the terms when they took the loan and should honor the debt. It should never have been introduced and then ramped up but those who think their clever by defaulting on their debt should be more respectful of those that either haven’t or have no choice.
You are so thick you cannot even spell groat so should refrain from any discussions on economics and leave it to people who have a clue what they are talking about.
If I were you I'd be worried about how my Footsie tracker looks in Scottish Groat Pounds.
But you don't seem to care.
Independence at any cost is the motto.
If your thesis about groat pounds is what I imagine it is, your point is back to front; Malc's dollar earning, gbp priced tracker will buy enough groats to buy the Outer Hebrides outright, with enough over for a turnip supper and a Uber home.
Fortunately for the Anti-separatist side I don't think Nicola and co have the intelligence to understand my thesis or they would have tried it last time.
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Those of us that have had the experience of bringing up children will know exactly how you feel. Yes, there is much to be said for letting them learn by experience, but not at the cost of letting them do themselves irretrievable harm.
Out in the big wide world I just shrug and say you voted for it it’s not my problem and I’m not interested in discussing it any further.
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Those of us that have had the experience of bringing up children will know exactly how you feel. Yes, there is much to be said for letting them learn by experience, but not at the cost of letting them do themselves irretrievable harm.
Out in the big wide world I just shrug and say you voted for it it’s not my problem and I’m not interested in discussing it any further.
Understandable, but a bit of a cop out, no?
Yes but it’s very similar to the issue that was raised yesterday that it’s gone beyond the bounds of reasonable debate. I fish in a limited pool, everyone knows my views and if asked I would obviously offer my opinion but it’s really at the point that people are either so desperate to be rid of it (and oddly would accept revoke as well as no deal just to finish it) it doesn’t even enter the day to day conversation. They would be horrified and would laugh at me if I said no deal is ‘only the end of the beginning.’ So I’ll wait and see how it plays out!
Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn are like a pair of painful hemeriods. A complete pain in the arse without ointment! Both are complete dipsticks who demean politics! What have we come too...
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
You know, the EUR did not come out of nowhere. One EUR = ECU. The ECU was created on 13 March 1979 when it replaced the European Unit Account. Both changes were at parity, i.e 1 EUA = 1 ECU = 1 EUR. As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
You know, the EUR did not come out of nowhere. One EUR = ECU. The ECU was created on 13 March 1979 when it replaced the European Unit Account. Both changes were at parity, i.e 1 EUA = 1 ECU = 1 EUR. As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
Keywords - Legacy currency.
DM doesn't exist anymore - you can quote pre 99 stuff in them but it makes no sense to quote current prices in them.
Trouble with student loans is that it effectively means students are paying 40% tax even on the basic rate (20% IT + 11% NI + 9% SL) , and 51% (40% IT + 2% NI + 9% SL) on the higher rate. You earn anything above £25k you pay big time. Usually for the rest of your career.
With housing and transport costs as high as they are that makes it very difficult to get on.
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
You know, the EUR did not come out of nowhere. One EUR = ECU. The ECU was created on 13 March 1979 when it replaced the European Unit Account. Both changes were at parity, i.e 1 EUA = 1 ECU = 1 EUR. As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
IIRC the Pound was a part of the ECU basket, so (indirectly) pounds became Euros.
Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn are like a pair of painful hemeriods. A complete pain in the arse without ointment! Both are complete dipsticks who demean politics! What have we come too...
Rubbish. There are very good treatments available these days for haemorrhoids.
Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn are like a pair of painful hemeriods. A complete pain in the arse without ointment! Both are complete dipsticks who demean politics! What have we come too...
Rubbish. There are very good treatments available these days for haemorrhoids.
Although an ectomy would actually solve a lot of problems
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
You know, the EUR did not come out of nowhere. One EUR = ECU. The ECU was created on 13 March 1979 when it replaced the European Unit Account. Both changes were at parity, i.e 1 EUA = 1 ECU = 1 EUR. As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
IIRC the Pound was a part of the ECU basket, so (indirectly) pounds became Euros.
Did anyone watch Countryfile last night for the 7 day forecast?
Am I laying the draw again?
On the dry side of the Pennines. Set fair for all 5 days.
Thanks - I'll get that lay done then.
Holy shit - the draws at 8 - what's gone wrong there? Have my (so far losing tactics) gone mainstream or something?????
Perhaps other people have also checked the weather forecast!
Last time was my first lay - I always thought it was roughly 3/1.
I'm tempted by Australia at 2.86
Had the same thought. Went yesterday. Good day's cricket. Little between the two sides, so back the outsider? Won't be a draw. Bowling much better than the batting, and few Tests are drawn unless the weather intervenes.
Did anyone watch Countryfile last night for the 7 day forecast?
Am I laying the draw again?
On the dry side of the Pennines. Set fair for all 5 days.
Thanks - I'll get that lay done then.
Holy shit - the draws at 8 - what's gone wrong there? Have my (so far losing tactics) gone mainstream or something?????
Perhaps other people have also checked the weather forecast!
Last time was my first lay - I always thought it was roughly 3/1.
I'm tempted by Australia at 2.86
Had the same thought. Went yesterday. Good day's cricket. Little between the two sides, so back the outsider? Won't be a draw. Bowling much better than the batting, and few Tests are drawn unless the weather intervenes.
Just thought - have you priced in the lack of Steve Smith? Cus I forgot to Kebab Shop Guy-esque
Firstly that Corbyn is attacking the Conservative Party that he would like it to be and not what it it is. Johnson's coterie and the Brexiteer prime movers are rampant disaster capitalists, who have adopted an anti austerity veneer to appeal to Brexit Party nativists. Corbyn's attack will work if people disbelieve the veneer is genuine. At the same time Johnson et al are not in a good place to attack Corbyn on wasting tax payers money.
I don't agree Corbyn is particularly divisive, unless attacking bankers and polluters counts as divisive.
Corbyn implies he is in favour of a sensible Brexit. Whether that's what people want, or is even possible, is maybe unclear.
Did anyone watch Countryfile last night for the 7 day forecast?
Am I laying the draw again?
On the dry side of the Pennines. Set fair for all 5 days.
Thanks - I'll get that lay done then.
Holy shit - the draws at 8 - what's gone wrong there? Have my (so far losing tactics) gone mainstream or something?????
Perhaps other people have also checked the weather forecast!
Last time was my first lay - I always thought it was roughly 3/1.
I'm tempted by Australia at 2.86
Had the same thought. Went yesterday. Good day's cricket. Little between the two sides, so back the outsider? Won't be a draw. Bowling much better than the batting, and few Tests are drawn unless the weather intervenes.
Just thought - have you priced in the lack of Steve Smith? Cus I forgot to Kebab Shop Guy-esque
I expect he will play and be ok, but even if that's wrong, the teams are still well matched.
Toss could be important. We need one of our Yorkshire posters to confirm (Morris Dancer) but I think winning the toss and batting first is a big advantage at Headingley.
Also its worth noting that while Boris believed he was so important everyone will come to London, Boris and co are so important that as well as visiting Berlin and Paris, a visit (or more likely a few visits) to Dublin is now on the agenda
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Those of us that have had the experience of bringing up children will know exactly how you feel. Yes, there is much to be said for letting them learn by experience, but not at the cost of letting them do themselves irretrievable harm.
Except these are adults. If they want to hurl themselves of the Brexit cliff then I shall watch disinterestedly...
I’d also point out that OTC insulin is * a different product *
He was prescribed insulin analogue - synthetic - and chose to take something else.
There’s a reason why most insulin is synthetic.
Yes ... but. There is also a reason by human insulin is still available, apart from cost. Reactions can be unpredictable, which is why porcine insulin is still available too.
The original piece linked stated that he changed at the suggestion of a Doctor:
"He began rationing his pricey prescription, before a doctor recommended taking ReliOn, an over-the-counter brand sold for $25 a vial at Walmart."
Very much agree with the comments on diabetes costs in USA. Syringes seem very expensive. too.
Dr Fox is right on the costs.
The insulin cost in the US is a number of times that paid by the Local Doctor here, based on the BNF numbers for the same product. Very rough estimate based on the last time I looked it up would be 5x plus more expensive in USA. Even the cheaper one is getting on for 2-3 times. Syringes are not dissimilar - I could buy them of Amazon at about a fifth of the price quoted (15p vs 1 dollar), should I not use a prescription.
I am just about to start picking up the tab for daily part time professional care for a parent, and it is a similar type of number.
I’m not trying to defend insulin pricing in the US which is obscene
The amended paragraph you cite above sounds like “I asked a mate down the pub who went to medical school” not “I got Avner prescription from my FP”
Blimey. Perhaps it is time to join the eurozone after all.
We need to be quick though, it wont last much longer!
Remember we joined the ERM when GBP = DM 2.95. Today it is DM 2.10
Really? I thought the DM ceased to exist in 1999-2002.
GBP = EUR 1.08. EUR = DM 1.95
Assuming that the DM trajectory would have mirrored the Euro.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
You know, the EUR did not come out of nowhere. One EUR = ECU. The ECU was created on 13 March 1979 when it replaced the European Unit Account. Both changes were at parity, i.e 1 EUA = 1 ECU = 1 EUR. As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
IIRC the Pound was a part of the ECU basket, so (indirectly) pounds became Euros.
Superb trolling.
I thought he was thinking Brexit was a good thing? Just like you!
So 86% of people voted for parties that said they would respect the referendum and ensure Brexit happened!
And they have been unable to deliver. So now what do you do?
The default position is No Deal, but that has the support of less than half of the public, and MPs. It is also widely believed to be an extremely damging course of action for the country as a whole.
You wish to proceed? [Please don't mutter 'Will Of The People' , like some religious incantation. This is real life, with real consequences.]
Brexit is a secular religion and religious zealots never depend on reason. They follow dogma and show their piety via unwavering belief.
It is extraordinary how the cultishness cuts across traditional ties. I really cannot think of any historic parallel since the Civil War, when brother fought against brother across the parliamentary divide.
I have joined the "Shrug" Cult. These days I just shrug and say "Go on then... do it and see what happens" because, quite frankly, a lot of people only learn the hard way.
No one has ever answered me in even the slightest detail how putting up barriers to our major export market makes the UK richer, safer and better.
All I get is horsesh*t about how we can shiver in electric brownouts / blackouts but at least we will have our blue passports.
One complete fool on here even told me that "Yes - it may be a disaster, but at least we chose do to it"
Firstly that Corbyn is attacking the Conservative Party that he would like it to be and not what it it is. Johnson's coterie and the Brexiteer prime movers are rampant disaster capitalists, who have adopted an anti austerity veneer to appeal to Brexit Party nativists. Corbyn's attack will work if people disbelieve the veneer is genuine. At the same time Johnson et al are not in a good place to attack Corbyn on wasting tax payers money.
I don't agree Corbyn is particularly divisive, unless attacking bankers and polluters counts as divisive.
Corbyn implies he is in favour of a sensible Brexit. Whether that's what people want, or is even possible, is maybe unclear.
Corbyn is the second most divisive mainstream politician of our times. The first being McDonnell.
What sort of frothing loon makes it over the line for you to feel they're divisive?
Admittedly your not alone. When you can wake up to the Today programme attempting to give a serious interview to Caroline Lucas then you know that coffee won't be the complete solution.
Comments
Most of the people I went to school / uni with are scattered all over the world now - from New York to Dubai to Shanghai. A grad tax of say 10% makes every foreign job look 10% more attractive.
Or we could just drag the country back to the 70s faster than you can say "brain drain".
So many things are now mostly online or can be made that way. In real life, mobile phones can be tracked, and facial recognition software is only getting more advanced.
I wonder why he didn't understand what is now his own argument when he was supporting Gordon Brown's insane position of around 2010. I remember reading an article by him when he said bumping up UK government spending was fine because Denmark had successfully done so - completely ignoring both the difference in deficit and the difference in debt between the two countries.
Still, a sinner repenteth and all that.
The Tory ranks are not full of David Herdsons and Richard Nabavis and Labour isn't full of Southam Observers right now.
For all the dominance of the German economy in the Eurozone that seems a bold assumption.
I might get 30 000 SGP (Scottish Grote Pounds) PIP per month in the future.
A bit like the-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc
When people looked at how to sanely separate the Euro a few years back the only approach that worked is for Germany to leave allow their currency to appreciate the 20% or so it needs to move for the rest of the Euro zone to cope...
But you don't seem to care.
Independence at any cost is the motto.
'This bowler hasn't conceded a run in this spell, has he?'
'Yes he has, he was hit for two fours in his last over!'
'Oh yes, forgot about those.'
No wonder Gloucestershire's commentators are a joke round the circuit!
The surreal, unwitting comedy of it was such that I wasn't even mad. It was hilarious.
Synchronised diving. On the radio.
Silence. Splash. Applause. Repeat.
Speaking of which-
Wolves 3.1
Man Utd 2.58
Draw 3.35
Is it just me or is the value with Man U???
Ours was ruled unconstitutional for breaching the Eighth Amendment, but unfortunately the Supreme Court of the US has no jurisdiction in Staffordshire.
I jest, but once you accept the "user pays" premise then why should some categories be taxed in this way and not others? Why should funding for secondary schools taken from general taxation when funding for universities is taken only from those who have used them?
Whatever I do at least I won't be Kebab Shop Guy
Am I laying the draw again?
As 1st January 1999 approached the divergence of interest rates in all prospective EUR currencies narrowed and the rate of each legacy currency was fixed forever at the close of play on the 31st December 1998.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Currency_Unit
DM doesn't exist anymore - you can quote pre 99 stuff in them but it makes no sense to quote current prices in them.
Scottish Groat Pounds on the other hand...
With housing and transport costs as high as they are that makes it very difficult to get on.
https://twitter.com/ajarrodkimber/status/1163501638956527617
I'm tempted by Australia at 2.86
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1163502173923287042
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1163503615002255360
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1163504244655316993
Firstly that Corbyn is attacking the Conservative Party that he would like it to be and not what it it is. Johnson's coterie and the Brexiteer prime movers are rampant disaster capitalists, who have adopted an anti austerity veneer to appeal to Brexit Party nativists. Corbyn's attack will work if people disbelieve the veneer is genuine. At the same time Johnson et al are not in a good place to attack Corbyn on wasting tax payers money.
I don't agree Corbyn is particularly divisive, unless attacking bankers and polluters counts as divisive.
Corbyn implies he is in favour of a sensible Brexit. Whether that's what people want, or is even possible, is maybe unclear.
Toss could be important. We need one of our Yorkshire posters to confirm (Morris Dancer) but I think winning the toss and batting first is a big advantage at Headingley.
It worked but I can't be 100% sure they weren't on their way out in any case.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/19/elizabeth-warren-apologizes-native-american-event-1468119
Somehow, I don’t think Trump’s ‘Pocahontas’ slur is going to have any resonance this time round.
Those haemorrhoids are not gone, merely waiting to be reincarnated...
We know from Starmer that there is nothing in the existing WA that he would seek to change.
So the only reason to vote against it was naked politicking - not principle, not having a clear idea as to his own alternative.
Corbyn has zero clue as to what his 'sensible' Brexit might look like or how he would achieve it.
But keep clinging to your false hopes if you must. The reality is that Corbyn has nothing to offer here
Also its worth noting that while Boris believed he was so important everyone will come to London, Boris and co are so important that as well as visiting Berlin and Paris, a visit (or more likely a few visits) to Dublin is now on the agenda
The amended paragraph you cite above sounds like “I asked a mate down the pub who went to medical school” not “I got Avner prescription from my FP”
What sort of frothing loon makes it over the line for you to feel they're divisive?
Admittedly your not alone. When you can wake up to the Today programme attempting to give a serious interview to Caroline Lucas then you know that coffee won't be the complete solution.