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  • tim said:

    tim said:

    Icarus said:

    Had an email from the Labour Party complaining that 252 Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs voted for the bedroom tax.

    If the Labour party opposed it where were the 257 Labour MPs last night?

    Some notable absentees spotted by Andrea included:

    Ed Balls (he's in USA)
    Douglas Alexander
    Jim Murphy
    Umunna (he's in Palestine)
    Frank Field
    Diane Abbott
    David Blunkett
    Shawn Woodward
    Alan Johnson
    Gordon Brown
    Tessa Jowell

    Useful ammo for PMQs....
    Here's another one.
    There is no PMQ's
    Have you never heard of pairing?

    There is next week. Since this is such a "Flagship" Labour pledge you would have thought the opportunity to embarrass the government too good to miss.....but no.

    Particularly surprised by Frank Field's absence.....
    Have you never heard of pairing.
    This could be bigger than Falkirk in your head I know, and todays Scottish subsample must be gutting but the result would've been no different if pairing had been dropped.

    There has been no official pairing in the HofC since 1996
    tim wrong?

    Well there's a first!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Roger said:


    . The reason he was fired....'

    He resigned. Though Ed did call for him to be sacked.....

    Tom Watson also resigned. Anyone know why?

    He realised he was an obnoxious person and a liability?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    That is a bigger payrise than I have had this year.

    The squeeze of austerity is inevitable though. We were collectively living beyond our means by private and public borrowing over the last decade. Until we live within our means and start repaying our debts there will be a fall in livinv standards. There needs to be.

    Am I the only person who finds Eds attacks on Wonga ironic because he rather fancies running govts finances by borrowing until the next payday?

    Welcome to the Wonga world of sweeties, and bankrupcy, under the stewardship of Mr Balls. Osbornes Ace is to have that idiot as his opposite number.
    tim said:

    ONS

    Pay up 0.7%
    Inflation 2.2%

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    And it's getting worse

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
    But wages still not keeping pace with prices: Average earnings increased by 0.7% in the year to September, 0.1% down on the previous month

    good total unemployment figures, but anyone wondering why the tories have not benefited in the polls should bear the pay figures in mind, a recovery for those Osborne gave a bonus to in April, no one else

    Of course these earnings figures don't include the tax cuts - so the low paid's takehome is up a bit more than that..

    Osborne blew that message in the Omnishambles, people think it's a Lib Dem policy while he was focused on cutting the top rate.
    Don't forget the Omnishambles, it destroyed Tory messaging.
    None of your frothing changes the fact that low paid take home went up when their IT allowances were increased.

    I'm sure for them that is the important thing - we know you don't care about the low paid - you only care if a poll number changes.

    An all topics the only thing that matters to you is Labour polling - you care not about the method or the outcomes - chilling.


    It's not really my fault that after fighting an election prioritising an inheritance tax cut and in office prioritising a top rate cut the chinless clique are perceived as being remote and solely on the side of the rich

    Of course it is tim, what with your claims of your amazing predictive powers I'm surprised anybody's bothering with a GE at all, HMG should just ask you to declare the result now and save us all a lot of time and money.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485
    Roger said:

    @Jessop

    "Unless you think what happened was fine?"

    This story has taken on a life of it's own. The reason he was fired was because he swore at the poilce in temper and his boss thought that inappropriate behaviour for a Cabinet Minister.

    Whether F*** C*** rather than 'pleb' makes it less likely Cameron would have fired him is something only Cameron can answer. Everything else is waffle.

    For me the most unedifying spectacle was Keith Vaz hectoring the policeman whether he ought to apologize to Mitchell. It was supposed to be an inquiry into what happened not an elaborate version of 'I'm A Celebrity...'

    Firstly, he was not sacked: he resigned. I would expect someone in your industry to know the difference between a resignation and a sacking.
    Secondly, that was not why it happened. It happened because there was a manufactured media firestorm over the allegations.

    It's glad to know that as well as thinking men should be able to feel women up in a workplace (if the women don't want it, they should just become hairdressers); you also think the police should be allowed to lie if it helps your political agenda.

    You and Tim are the voices of the real nasty party.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19922026
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    Pulpstar said:

    A colleague's husband of mine' workplace is heading for a strike. He's not part of the union and isn't really fussed. But obviously he is caught between his colleagues and management.

    Best course of action in this sort of situation is to take a day's holiday thus avoiding both side's hassle ?

    Go in and work I'd say, his job depends on happy customers.
  • philiph said:

    Roger said:


    . The reason he was fired....'

    He resigned. Though Ed did call for him to be sacked.....

    Tom Watson also resigned. Anyone know why?

    He realised he was an obnoxious person and a liability?
    Well, we know what it wasn't:

    Yet it's not the unattributed shadow cabinet briefings around the mess in Falkirk that has convinced me that the arrangement has run its course (though they don't help). I believe that the report should be published – in full – and the whole truth told as soon as possible so that the record can be made clear. I've still not seen the report but believe there are an awful lot of spurious suppositions being written.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/04/tom-watson-resignation-letter-ed-miliband-full-text
  • tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    Icarus said:

    Had an email from the Labour Party complaining that 252 Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs voted for the bedroom tax.

    If the Labour party opposed it where were the 257 Labour MPs last night?

    Some notable absentees spotted by Andrea included:

    Ed Balls (he's in USA)
    Douglas Alexander
    Jim Murphy
    Umunna (he's in Palestine)
    Frank Field
    Diane Abbott
    David Blunkett
    Shawn Woodward
    Alan Johnson
    Gordon Brown
    Tessa Jowell

    Useful ammo for PMQs....
    Here's another one.
    There is no PMQ's
    Have you never heard of pairing?

    There is next week. Since this is such a "Flagship" Labour pledge you would have thought the opportunity to embarrass the government too good to miss.....but no.

    Particularly surprised by Frank Field's absence.....
    Have you never heard of pairing.
    This could be bigger than Falkirk in your head I know, and todays Scottish subsample must be gutting but the result would've been no different if pairing had been dropped.

    There has been no official pairing in the HofC since 1996
    tim wrong?

    Well there's a first!

    @labourwhips: For those asking we operate a pairing system with the Tories and therefore it would have made no difference to majority on #BedroomTax 1/2
    I wondered what Mandy Rice-Davis was up to these days.....

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 48s

    Dept for Education tells Sky News a serious case review into death of four-year-old Hamzah Khan, who starved to death, is "rubbish document"
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    Icarus said:

    Had an email from the Labour Party complaining that 252 Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs voted for the bedroom tax.

    If the Labour party opposed it where were the 257 Labour MPs last night?

    Some notable absentees spotted by Andrea included:

    Ed Balls (he's in USA)
    Douglas Alexander
    Jim Murphy
    Umunna (he's in Palestine)
    Frank Field
    Diane Abbott
    David Blunkett
    Shawn Woodward
    Alan Johnson
    Gordon Brown
    Tessa Jowell

    Useful ammo for PMQs....
    Here's another one.
    There is no PMQ's
    Have you never heard of pairing?

    There is next week. Since this is such a "Flagship" Labour pledge you would have thought the opportunity to embarrass the government too good to miss.....but no.

    Particularly surprised by Frank Field's absence.....
    Have you never heard of pairing.
    This could be bigger than Falkirk in your head I know, and todays Scottish subsample must be gutting but the result would've been no different if pairing had been dropped.

    There has been no official pairing in the HofC since 1996
    tim wrong?

    Well there's a first!

    @labourwhips: For those asking we operate a pairing system with the Tories and therefore it would have made no difference to majority on #BedroomTax 1/2
    anecdote versus hard polling; 252 v 257.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    And it's getting worse

    Andrew Neil ‏@afneil
    But wages still not keeping pace with prices: Average earnings increased by 0.7% in the year to September, 0.1% down on the previous month

    good total unemployment figures, but anyone wondering why the tories have not benefited in the polls should bear the pay figures in mind, a recovery for those Osborne gave a bonus to in April, no one else

    Of course these earnings figures don't include the tax cuts - so the low paid's takehome is up a bit more than that..

    Osborne blew that message in the Omnishambles, people think it's a Lib Dem policy while he was focused on cutting the top rate.
    Don't forget the Omnishambles, it destroyed Tory messaging.
    None of your frothing changes the fact that low paid take home went up when their IT allowances were increased.

    I'm sure for them that is the important thing - we know you don't care about the low paid - you only care if a poll number changes.

    An all topics the only thing that matters to you is Labour polling - you care not about the method or the outcomes - chilling.


    It's not really my fault that

    tim - you are Labour/Unite (same fing innit ?) - nothing is ever your fault..


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim you have a rival for anecdotal based sour grapery


    Danny Blanchflower ‏@D_Blanchflower 3m
    Certainly unexpected big fall in unempt rate monthly number of 7.1% lowest since feb 09 maybe there is some momentum from house price bubble
  • JamesMJamesM Posts: 221
    Morning all. I am no health expert, but from my point of view one important area with any system of health care is to ensure that the public at large are clear about what each location in their neighbourhood does; here the significance of labels cannot be understated. For example in my parents area there is an 'Urgent Care Centre' and an 'Accident and Emergency'. Now I have limited knowledge of what the distinction is between the two of them, but the inclusion of accident in the title makes it sound less urgent. So appropriate facilities are crucial, but how they are labelled and how this is communicated to the public is very important too.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485
    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop.

    Still no argument on why Cameron sat on the CCTV evidence?

    What a crusader for truth you are, hypocrite.

    Still no proof Cameron sat on the evidence? And you still won't say how you would have complained if he had released it.

    As I have said passim, if the CCTV evidence had been released earlier on, it might not have stopped the media fire, and also allowed the liars to alter their stories to fit in with the evidence (especially the later emails).

    There's no hypocrisy at all on my part. And I'm not trying to be a crusader (except perhaps on HS2).

    It's a sunny day here. Log off your computer and go for a walk, get some fresh air. Who knows, you might even meet some real people.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485
    The Hamzah Khan report is starting to smell like a whitewash, and I've only seen the headline ...
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited November 2013

    That is a bigger payrise than I have had this year.

    The squeeze of austerity is inevitable though. We were collectively living beyond our means by private and public borrowing over the last decade. Until we live within our means and start repaying our debts there will be a fall in livinv standards. There needs to be.

    Am I the only person who finds Eds attacks on Wonga ironic because he rather fancies running govts finances by borrowing until the next payday?

    Welcome to the Wonga world of sweeties, and bankrupcy, under the stewardship of Mr Balls. Osbornes Ace is to have that idiot as his opposite number.

    tim said:

    ONS

    Pay up 0.7%
    Inflation 2.2%

    "The squeeze of austerity is inevitable though."

    If it's correct that shifting the proportion of income that goes on discretionary spending to the proportion spent on necessities reduces the velocity of money then allowing predatory lending of the poor will reduce the velocity of money even more.

    edit: "might be" instead of "will" prob safer bet
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    I am bemused by those who think we might see a slow down in the fall in unemployment. Employment is normally a lagging indicator because employers initially try to get more out of their existing employees (boosting productivity), then they go for overtime (boosting average wages and hours worked), then they go for temps and only then do they commit themselves to the cost of new staff.

    Growth started to get going in January but it is only since July that most people have been confident that things are really moving this time in most of the country. It seems to me that we should still be pretty near the start of that cycle.

    Putting aside the demented like Blanchflower why is this? I think economists have really struggled to explain higher employment in the UK for some considerable time now. Employment was growing when the economy was flat or even shrinking a bit. Now it is growing faster.

    I think our productivity stats are being completely distorted by falling north sea output and the loss of super profits in financial services in London. The underlying economy is in much better shape and in my opinion will continue to generate additional employment for at least the next 18 months. Would I sound plaintive if I suggested that the government is entitled to at least some credit for this?
  • You see, one of the problems with Labour “apologising” for immigration or “admitting mistakes” is that no-one ever really remembers. Immigration is one of those issues on which it’s hard-wired into the public imagination that we are “soft” on immigration. And no amount of tough-talking rhetoric in the New Labour years or factual analysis from academics about the benefits of immigration has helped our case a jot.

    Ed Miliband has seen recently what can be achieved when you make the debate about Labour’s positive vision for Britain, rather than adhering to the Cameron/Crosby “Broken Britain” narrative. He’s apologised on immigration – and no-one noticed/cared. It’s time for him to move onto issues on which Labour can actually win – because it’s clear that if the next election is a referendum on immigration, we’ll lose.


    http://labourlist.org/2013/11/theres-no-point-in-labour-apologising-or-admitting-mistakes-on-immigration-because-no-one-is-listening/
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516
    DavidL said:

    I am bemused by those who think we might see a slow down in the fall in unemployment. Employment is normally a lagging indicator because employers initially try to get more out of their existing employees (boosting productivity), then they go for overtime (boosting average wages and hours worked), then they go for temps and only then do they commit themselves to the cost of new staff.

    Growth started to get going in January but it is only since July that most people have been confident that things are really moving this time in most of the country. It seems to me that we should still be pretty near the start of that cycle.

    Putting aside the demented like Blanchflower why is this? I think economists have really struggled to explain higher employment in the UK for some considerable time now. Employment was growing when the economy was flat or even shrinking a bit. Now it is growing faster.

    I think our productivity stats are being completely distorted by falling north sea output and the loss of super profits in financial services in London. The underlying economy is in much better shape and in my opinion will continue to generate additional employment for at least the next 18 months. Would I sound plaintive if I suggested that the government is entitled to at least some credit for this?

    I'd go with that on the productivity front. City "profits" in the noughties have subsequently turned out to be fresh air so that by itself is a hit, likewise the N Sea effect has flattered UK performance for several decades. Stripping those out we're getting more of a view as to what the underlying situation looks like.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    edited November 2013
    Could anyone explain how the worst government in history with incompetent fops at the helm has managed to produce huge increases in private sector employment, excellent growth figures and very low inflation at a time when our main trading partners are producing the opposite in terms of growth & employment. Especially considering the messiah miliband told us all the opposite would happen if the government continued with its policies. Any ideas, because reading the posts on here over the past few months you would think that this country's economy was on the bring of disaster due to the worst chancellor this country has ever known.
    Any ideas?
  • Talking of Tom Watson:

    Ed Miliband caused 'grotesque harm' calling for Falkirk police investigation, says former election chief
    Tom Watson, the MP for West Bromwich East, says Ed Miliband was wrong to demand a probe into two people involved in allegations of seat-rigging by the Unite union


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10445986/Ed-Miliband-caused-grotesque-harm-calling-for-Falkirk-police-investigation-says-former-election-chief.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ed Conway @EdConwaySky
    Breaking: Bank of England moves the date at which it expects unemployment to fall to 7% forward from late 2016 to the final quarter of 2014
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited November 2013
    Plato said:

    Ed Conway @EdConwaySky
    Breaking: Bank of England moves the date at which it expects unemployment to fall to 7% forward from late 2016 to the final quarter of 2014

    Pound just spiked.....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/12/intraday.stm

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Bad news for sour grape munchers...

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 6s
    BREAKING: Britain will grow by 1.6% this year and by 2.8% in 2014, says Bank of England - an upgrade form 1.4% and 2.5%.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak
    The Bank of England has upgraded its growth forecast for 2013 from 1.4% to 1.6% and for 2014 from 2.5% to 2.8%
  • Ed Conway ‏@EdConwaySky 2m
    Breaking: Bank of England moves the date at which it expects unemployment to fall to 7% forward from late 2016 to the final quarter of 2014

    Is that the point of time when interest rates go up? Or does the fall in inflation now counterbalance the need for increases in rates?
  • tim said:

    Talking of Tom Watson:

    Ed Miliband caused 'grotesque harm' calling for Falkirk police investigation, says former election chief
    Tom Watson, the MP for West Bromwich East, says Ed Miliband was wrong to demand a probe into two people involved in allegations of seat-rigging by the Unite union


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10445986/Ed-Miliband-caused-grotesque-harm-calling-for-Falkirk-police-investigation-says-former-election-chief.html

    Oh no Ed is being criticised for calling in the police, woe are we, how will we cope, it's a disaster, can only be a matter of time before that filters through to the TNS/BMRB Scottish sub sample.
    I understand why you're upset....its driven 'Man cries at Funeral' from the headlines.......

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I wonder whether at least part of the increase in employment is employment in the black economy becoming legitimate.

    After all increased tax allowances and the tightening of benefit scrutiny has reduced the trap where it is only worth working if the work is hidden. The cost of honesty has become lower.
    DavidL said:

    I am bemused by those who think we might see a slow down in the fall in unemployment. Employment is normally a lagging indicator because employers initially try to get more out of their existing employees (boosting productivity), then they go for overtime (boosting average wages and hours worked), then they go for temps and only then do they commit themselves to the cost of new staff.

    Growth started to get going in January but it is only since July that most people have been confident that things are really moving this time in most of the country. It seems to me that we should still be pretty near the start of that cycle.

    Putting aside the demented like Blanchflower why is this? I think economists have really struggled to explain higher employment in the UK for some considerable time now. Employment was growing when the economy was flat or even shrinking a bit. Now it is growing faster.

    I think our productivity stats are being completely distorted by falling north sea output and the loss of super profits in financial services in London. The underlying economy is in much better shape and in my opinion will continue to generate additional employment for at least the next 18 months. Would I sound plaintive if I suggested that the government is entitled to at least some credit for this?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Plato said:

    Ed Conway @EdConwaySky
    Breaking: Bank of England moves the date at which it expects unemployment to fall to 7% forward from late 2016 to the final quarter of 2014

    Pound just spiked.....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/12/intraday.stm

    Should keep petrol low(ish)
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    Two successive days of extremely positive economic news and Cameron's response is to cancel PMQs. What a shameless coward.

    Poor tim.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited November 2013
    ''Thats the point at which Osborne begs Carney not to put up interest rates and shaft those who think house price inflation is good in an election run up.''

    Ultimate and completely desperate sour grapery there. We all know the bank of England is independent. Any rate increase would be quite small, anyhoo.

    You really are like Canute screaming at the tide today aren't you. Wrong kind of waves!! Incompetent surf!!

    LOL
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    currystar said:

    Could anyone explain how the worst government in history with incompetent fops at the helm has managed to produce huge increases in private sector employment, excellent growth figures and very low inflation at a time when are main trading partners are producing the opposite in terms of growth & employment. Especially considering the messiah miliband told us all the opposite would happen if the government continued with its policies. Any ideas, because reading the posts on here over the past few months you would think that this country's economy was on the bring of disaster due to the worst chancellor this country has ever known.
    Any ideas?

    1) Politicians like to mash up GDP growth with "getting better off" but that's just a way of lying to the public. Politically it's getting better off that matters and as far as getting better off is concerned GDP growth is an input not an output.

    2) If there's a hidden deflationary spiral caused by declining real incomes then some of the things they've achieved - which would be good in another context - will be fueling the spiral. So basically they'd be running on a treadmill that's gets faster the faster you run.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2013
    tim said:

    JohnO said:

    Two successive days of extremely positive economic news and Cameron's response is to cancel PMQs. What a shameless coward.

    Poor tim.

    Yeah, the polls are moving just how you predicted.
    Except in the totally opposite direction.

    Bean-bag warrior turns sulky. Poor diddums.

    I'm desolate beyond measure
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Interest rates going up are good for savers - who are all pensioners - who are all Tory/Kippers !

    This plot to make the economy grow is a Tory scam to gerrymander votes I tells you.

    No wonder there is a wine shortage - the grapes are being picked to early and shipped in volume to Liverpool...

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,162
    edited November 2013
    Best sh!t excuse so far for not turning up to last night's vote, it was right for MPs not to go to vote because it wastes money on travel that could be used on public services.

    http://tinyurl.com/p7v9gpj
  • Employment is up, unemployment is down, company profits are up, house sales are up, car sales are up, retail sales are up, personal debt has fallen massively, we are exporting in ever increasing amounts outside of the EU....

    Yet still people say living standards are falling.

    When will it dawn on them that drawing a simple conclusion on the basis of a straight read across of CPI and average wages is flawed?

    Different people are experiencing different things.

    It's a bad time to be dependent on the state for your income - whether it's welfare or public sector wages. That's what £160bn a year deficits do.

    A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase.

    This is why Labour's summary of the economy doesn't add up. It is so enthrall to the public sector and the welfare community that it thinks their experiences are the same as teh private sector.

    Salaries rising at fastest rate since 2007:

    http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/c06e64252f9e4cc2b1330b64704ebd86
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    ya gorra larf..
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Employment is up, unemployment is down, company profits are up, house sales are up, car sales are up, retail sales are up, personal debt has fallen massively, we are exporting in ever increasing amounts outside of the EU....

    Yet still people say living standards are falling.

    When will it dawn on them that drawing a simple conclusion on the basis of a straight read across of CPI and average wages is flawed?

    Different people are experiencing different things.

    It's a bad time to be dependent on the state for your income - whether it's welfare or public sector wages. That's what £160bn a year deficits do.

    A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase.

    This is why Labour's summary of the economy doesn't add up. It is so enthrall to the public sector and the welfare community that it thinks their experiences are the same as teh private sector.

    Salaries rising at fastest rate since 2007:

    http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/c06e64252f9e4cc2b1330b64704ebd86

    "Yet still people say living standards are falling"

    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Guido has some info on Watsons statement about Ed making a mistake..and another e-mail that proves he didn"t
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    DWP Press Office @dwppressoffice
    McVey: Number of people claiming main out of work benefits has fallen by almost half a million under this govt pic.twitter.com/gwA0rm73GV
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    And energy price increase wash away any benefits.

    Tim is right that a strongly improving economy is not translating into better performances in the polls.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    Best sh!t excuse so far for not turning up to last night's vote, it was right for MPs not to go to vote because it wastes money on travel that could be used on public services.

    http://tinyurl.com/p7v9gpj

    That's hilarious - couldn't make it to the vote because I needed 25 pence for toothpaste, which was previously allocated to the bus fare was it ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,046
    edited November 2013

    Employment is up, unemployment is down, company profits are up, house sales are up, car sales are up, retail sales are up, personal debt has fallen massively, we are exporting in ever increasing amounts outside of the EU....

    Yet still people say living standards are falling.

    When will it dawn on them that drawing a simple conclusion on the basis of a straight read across of CPI and average wages is flawed?

    Different people are experiencing different things.

    It's a bad time to be dependent on the state for your income - whether it's welfare or public sector wages. That's what £160bn a year deficits do.

    A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase.

    This is why Labour's summary of the economy doesn't add up. It is so enthrall to the public sector and the welfare community that it thinks their experiences are the same as teh private sector.

    Salaries rising at fastest rate since 2007:

    http://www.markiteconomics.com/Survey/PressRelease.mvc/c06e64252f9e4cc2b1330b64704ebd86

    Thing is, Lab demonstrably broke the economy, Cons demonstrably fixed it. Again. Both have form on this.

    But if the great British public choose to ignore such facts then there is nothing to be done. We will go through the whole cycle again.

    I am not blaming this on any short-term celebrity culture of entitlement, just that it is difficult to grasp the intricacies of economic policy and why they might be good or bad.

    And if the people vote in Labour after this, as is their right, it will just have to be a regrettable wait until the economy, which they will undoubtedly break, can be fixed again.

    My hope is that as people head towards the ballot box in GE2015 will have a moment of clarity about this and actually vote the Cons in again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Duncan Hothersall's twitter feed is a sight to behold.
  • TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    That private sector worker may also have seen things such as housing benefit payments reduced and experienced a number of cuts to front line services he/she may rely on; ditto the worker on £25,000. They are also coping with higher prices brought on not only by inflation but also by the VAT rise. These things need to be seen in the round. What is not going to work for the Tories is telling voters they are better off without people actually feeling it. Doing that will just make them seem out of touch.

  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Irony time

    Labour imports millions of extra workers into an economy that can't really expand in any useful way because the industrial base is too small but they soak up the mass unemployment that *would* have resulted into public sector jobs and higher education instead.

    Then along come the Tories and release all that pent-up unemployment like bursting a dam but in the context of zero-hours scrabbling it doesn't go into unemployment it goes into wage deflation instead.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    It's a big surprise that the heir to Osborne Baronetcy, of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon in the County of Waterford is failing to connect, I'd have thought someone who's daddy has bought all his houses for him would have been a natural.

    I blame the BBC.
    Hmm shouldn't the heir to the Baronetcy of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon in the County of Waterford really be in the Seanad Éireann ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    That private sector worker may also have seen things such as housing benefit payments reduced and experienced a number of cuts to front line services he/she may rely on; ditto the worker on £25,000. They are also coping with higher prices brought on not only by inflation but also by the VAT rise. These things need to be seen in the round. What is not going to work for the Tories is telling voters they are better off without people actually feeling it. Doing that will just make them seem out of touch.

    Never known anyone on £25k get HB.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    It's a big surprise that the heir to Osborne Baronetcy, of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon in the County of Waterford is failing to connect, I'd have thought someone who's daddy has bought all his houses for him would have been a natural.

    I blame the BBC.
    Why do you have all these prejudices and desires to discriminate against and insult minorities? Thoroughly unpleasant thought processes lead to these vitriolic discriminatory remarks.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    That private sector worker may also have seen things such as housing benefit payments reduced and experienced a number of cuts to front line services he/she may rely on; ditto the worker on £25,000. They are also coping with higher prices brought on not only by inflation but also by the VAT rise. These things need to be seen in the round. What is not going to work for the Tories is telling voters they are better off without people actually feeling it. Doing that will just make them seem out of touch.

    Never known anyone on £25k get HB.
    Never known someone get HB paid into their paypacket either.





  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    DavidL said:

    I am bemused by those who think we might see a slow down in the fall in unemployment. Employment is normally a lagging indicator because employers initially try to get more out of their existing employees (boosting productivity), then they go for overtime (boosting average wages and hours worked), then they go for temps and only then do they commit themselves to the cost of new staff.

    Growth started to get going in January but it is only since July that most people have been confident that things are really moving this time in most of the country. It seems to me that we should still be pretty near the start of that cycle.

    Putting aside the demented like Blanchflower why is this? I think economists have really struggled to explain higher employment in the UK for some considerable time now. Employment was growing when the economy was flat or even shrinking a bit. Now it is growing faster.

    I think our productivity stats are being completely distorted by falling north sea output and the loss of super profits in financial services in London. The underlying economy is in much better shape and in my opinion will continue to generate additional employment for at least the next 18 months. Would I sound plaintive if I suggested that the government is entitled to at least some credit for this?

    Unemployment in May 2015 will be well below the level the government inherited in 2010, possibly around the 2 million mark. Employment rates will be close to their pre-recession peak of 73%. Real Household incomes rose by 1.4% last year, and should rise again this year and next. The government will have a strong economic case by the time of the next election.

  • On topic, I was going to say those 30% of MPs were morons and we should form an all-party movement to get all these cretins deselected. But then thinking about the situation, they're getting annoyingly called up by a pollster asking them a bunch of really stupid questions, who then asks them if they support banning polling. If they'd asked a decent proportion would probably have advocated bringing back hanging for pollsters as well.
  • Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    That private sector worker may also have seen things such as housing benefit payments reduced and experienced a number of cuts to front line services he/she may rely on; ditto the worker on £25,000. They are also coping with higher prices brought on not only by inflation but also by the VAT rise. These things need to be seen in the round. What is not going to work for the Tories is telling voters they are better off without people actually feeling it. Doing that will just make them seem out of touch.

    Never known anyone on £25k get HB.

    "Such as". HB is not the only benefit. There have been significant cuts to working tax credits.

  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    How can this be true?
    This is the worst government in history

    Jeremy Cook, chief economist at currency brokers, World First, said: "This latest figure will hearten those who believe that the UK economy has now turned a corner. As it stands, the UK is the strongest economy in the G10 and it certainly has momentum."

    The strongest economy in the G10, how did the incompetent fops manage that?? It must be because Ed is the LOTO. Well done Ed.

    Vote Labour and they will give you free things
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Electoral commission seem to have updated its figures including borrowing.

    Party New loans (£) Loans repaid or converted into donations (£)Total loans outstanding (£)
    Conservative and Unionist Party 308,000 1,286,000 1,783,933
    Labour Party 2,500 385,783* 12,317,275
    Liberal Democrats 0 0 366,347

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    taffys said:

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    And energy price increase wash away any benefits.

    Tim is right that a strongly improving economy is not translating into better performances in the polls.

    There is a widespread feeling that the economy is being run in the interests of a small minority - the city, the energy companies, foreign plutocrats, bankers with telephone number salaries - all these are scooping the pool and leaving ordinary voters to suffer cuts in public services and falling real incomes. To many people the Tories are perceived to be on the side of these people and against the ordinary joe (and joesephine). A few months of growth will not remove this perception - the opposite may be the case as people will question why they are not feeling the benefit if the economy is improving.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited November 2013
    Only a fool gives a sh*t about which bed the Chancellor was born in..
  • MrJones said:


    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls.

    I believe it already is.

    The financial message for those dependent on the public purse (except pensioners) is remorsely negative - hence ever strengthening Labour numbers among its core constituency. They're regularly polling 50%+ in the North and among public sector employees and those in the C2DE categories.

    I think the government is banking entirely on the private sector to see it through and hoping that the Midlands will come down on their side.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    currystar said:

    How can this be true?
    This is the worst government in history

    Jeremy Cook, chief economist at currency brokers, World First, said: "This latest figure will hearten those who believe that the UK economy has now turned a corner. As it stands, the UK is the strongest economy in the G10 and it certainly has momentum."

    The strongest economy in the G10, how did the incompetent fops manage that?? It must be because Ed is the LOTO. Well done Ed.

    Vote Labour and they will give you free things

    You keep missing the point though. On their own all those numbers are just tractor stats. What matters is the result of the combination of those numbers and enough time for people to notice.

    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls. If you're not then you won't.
  • compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    edited November 2013
    On the night of the election, just as the seat that takes Red Ed into Number 10 goes to Labour, I think it will only be fair to re-post all the different "Miliband will never be PM"/"Red Ed is crap"/"Miliband is in trouble"/"this conference speech by Miliband is terrible".....and add the new one "Falkirk will be a disaster for Miliband" posts in respect of the immense political insight that has been on offer on this website since his leadership election.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    TGOHF said:

    "A private sector worker on £10,000 a year who gets a 1.1% headline rise actually gets a 3.9% rise after tax allowance adjustments. An average worker on £25,000 a year gets a post tax rise of 2.4% on a 1.1% pay increase. "

    The coalition is guilty of failing to make this case strongly enough.

    That private sector worker may also have seen things such as housing benefit payments reduced and experienced a number of cuts to front line services he/she may rely on; ditto the worker on £25,000. They are also coping with higher prices brought on not only by inflation but also by the VAT rise. These things need to be seen in the round. What is not going to work for the Tories is telling voters they are better off without people actually feeling it. Doing that will just make them seem out of touch.

    Also many private sector workers are getting ZERO pay rises and ZERO tax relif
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    MrJones said:


    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls.

    I believe it already is.

    The financial message for those dependent on the public purse (except pensioners) is remorsely negative - hence ever strengthening Labour numbers among its core constituency. They're regularly polling 50%+ in the North and among public sector employees and those in the C2DE categories.

    I think the government is banking entirely on the private sector to see it through and hoping that the Midlands will come down on their side.
    Yeah, IIRC there was a bit of an uptick in the number of people feeling optimistic for the next year so I think you're right - only question is the proportion.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543

    On topic, I was going to say those 30% of MPs were morons and we should form an all-party movement to get all these cretins deselected. But then thinking about the situation, they're getting annoyingly called up by a pollster asking them a bunch of really stupid questions, who then asks them if they support banning polling. If they'd asked a decent proportion would probably have advocated bringing back hanging for pollsters as well.

    I couldn't see the point of banning polling. People will still poll online and selectively leak the findings and/or people will come up with arguments along the lines of what sort of drinks people are buying indicate who's going to win the election.
  • To many people the Tories are perceived to be on the side of these people and against the ordinary joe (and joesephine). A few months of growth will not remove this perception - the opposite may be the case as people will question why they are not feeling the benefit if the economy is improving.

    I wouldn't be so sure. The data from US presidential elections seems to show that what really helps the incumbent is a good economic trajectory at the time of the election. It doesn't seem to matter too much what happened before. And it doesn't take a lot of unearned theoretical wealth to make you feel better about things.

    *** Checks bitcoin exchange rate again. ***
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    MrJones said:


    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls.

    I believe it already is.

    The financial message for those dependent on the public purse (except pensioners) is remorsely negative - hence ever strengthening Labour numbers among its core constituency. They're regularly polling 50%+ in the North and among public sector employees and those in the C2DE categories.

    I think the government is banking entirely on the private sector to see it through and hoping that the Midlands will come down on their side.
    Problem for these poor wee client state punters is that the good times of money for nothing are not coming back even if Ed is PM.


  • Sean_F said:

    On topic, I was going to say those 30% of MPs were morons and we should form an all-party movement to get all these cretins deselected. But then thinking about the situation, they're getting annoyingly called up by a pollster asking them a bunch of really stupid questions, who then asks them if they support banning polling. If they'd asked a decent proportion would probably have advocated bringing back hanging for pollsters as well.

    I couldn't see the point of banning polling. People will still poll online and selectively leak the findings and/or people will come up with arguments along the lines of what sort of drinks people are buying indicate who's going to win the election.
    Agreed, it's nuts for reasons given upthread. There's no good reason to try to do it even if it could be done, which it can't.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    Ed Conway ‏@EdConwaySky 2m
    Breaking: Bank of England moves the date at which it expects unemployment to fall to 7% forward from late 2016 to the final quarter of 2014

    Is that the point of time when interest rates go up? Or does the fall in inflation now counterbalance the need for increases in rates?

    That is the time when they will think about putting up interest rates. Whether they do will depend on other factors such as inflation, housing bubbles etc.

    At least the BoE and myself are now edging towards being in the same year for an interest rate rise. I still think it will happen sooner than late 2014 because there will be a need at some point next year to cool the exuberance in the housing market and, as I said earlier, unemployment will fall faster than currently projected.

    These numbers today are really excellent. Whether we are building a sustainable economy (as opposed to a Brown bubble) will show in the balance of payments. If Britain can grow so much faster than our main trading partners without sucking in a wave of imports without a counter balancing wave of exports of at least the same amount then it will be time to describe Osborne as a genius. No wonder the government is so focussed on export drives at the moment. That is the last missing ingredient but unfortunately the most important.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    MrJones said:


    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls.

    I believe it already is.

    The financial message for those dependent on the public purse (except pensioners) is remorsely negative - hence ever strengthening Labour numbers among its core constituency. They're regularly polling 50%+ in the North and among public sector employees and those in the C2DE categories.

    I think the government is banking entirely on the private sector to see it through and hoping that the Midlands will come down on their side.
    Swing to Labour since 2010 among C1's




    Strange timescale to quote seeing as the recovery didn't start in 2010...




  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Of course if it's ABs feeling better off and everyone else feeling worse off then it won't help the Cameroons much as half of them are Lab/LDs.
  • I wonder whether at least part of the increase in employment is employment in the black economy becoming legitimate.

    After all increased tax allowances and the tightening of benefit scrutiny has reduced the trap where it is only worth working if the work is hidden. The cost of honesty has become lower.

    Good point, @foxinsoxuk, and 'The cost of honesty has become lower' is a great phrase! Catchy and also clear in meaning. Any ideas how the veracity of your statement could be established? I mean, it makes sense to me, but IMO some hard stats would be needed to justify it as a claim.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027

    I wonder whether at least part of the increase in employment is employment in the black economy becoming legitimate.

    After all increased tax allowances and the tightening of benefit scrutiny has reduced the trap where it is only worth working if the work is hidden. The cost of honesty has become lower.

    Good point, @foxinsoxuk, and 'The cost of honesty has become lower' is a great phrase! Catchy and also clear in meaning. Any ideas how the veracity of your statement could be established? I mean, it makes sense to me, but IMO some hard stats would be needed to justify it as a claim.
    I also liked the phrase but wondered if it was right. My understanding is that most of those working in the black economy were doing so to claim benefits not evade tax. May be a bit of both of course and the government has been a great deal more rigorous in shaking out those who were claiming benefits but actually working.
  • OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,782
    DavidL said:

    I wonder whether at least part of the increase in employment is employment in the black economy becoming legitimate.

    After all increased tax allowances and the tightening of benefit scrutiny has reduced the trap where it is only worth working if the work is hidden. The cost of honesty has become lower.

    Good point, @foxinsoxuk, and 'The cost of honesty has become lower' is a great phrase! Catchy and also clear in meaning. Any ideas how the veracity of your statement could be established? I mean, it makes sense to me, but IMO some hard stats would be needed to justify it as a claim.
    I also liked the phrase but wondered if it was right. My understanding is that most of those working in the black economy were doing so to claim benefits not evade tax. May be a bit of both of course and the government has been a great deal more rigorous in shaking out those who were claiming benefits but actually working.
    You are suggesting that it is more 'the cost of dishonesty has risen'?

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543

    To many people the Tories are perceived to be on the side of these people and against the ordinary joe (and joesephine). A few months of growth will not remove this perception - the opposite may be the case as people will question why they are not feeling the benefit if the economy is improving.

    I wouldn't be so sure. The data from US presidential elections seems to show that what really helps the incumbent is a good economic trajectory at the time of the election. It doesn't seem to matter too much what happened before. And it doesn't take a lot of unearned theoretical wealth to make you feel better about things.

    *** Checks bitcoin exchange rate again. ***
    On top of that, the Republicans were still widely blamed for the USA's economic problems.

  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    MrJones said:

    currystar said:

    How can this be true?
    This is the worst government in history

    Jeremy Cook, chief economist at currency brokers, World First, said: "This latest figure will hearten those who believe that the UK economy has now turned a corner. As it stands, the UK is the strongest economy in the G10 and it certainly has momentum."

    The strongest economy in the G10, how did the incompetent fops manage that?? It must be because Ed is the LOTO. Well done Ed.

    Vote Labour and they will give you free things

    You keep missing the point though. On their own all those numbers are just tractor stats. What matters is the result of the combination of those numbers and enough time for people to notice.

    If you're right then you should start to see it in the polls. If you're not then you won't.
    Even if the economy is still tanking along in 2015 I still think Labour will win the election. Unfortunately a large majority of people in this country have a misguided view, (despite all the stacks of evidence when labour are in power), that labour will give them lots of free things ,they wont have to work hard and life will be better. A bit like the French when they voted for Hollande. Its just the way it is.

    In regard to living standards not improving, I just dont buy that, in Hampshire where I live. Restaurants are jammed packed, shops are full. i tried to book our works Christmas Party yesterday and all the local hotels/venues which are charging £50 per head are all booked up throughout December.

    Anecdotal I know but hardly an example of falling living standards.

    The tories will just have to deal with the fact that their role now is to clear up the mess left by Labour, do that very well and then lose the election. It will be an ongoing cycle. If people are prepared to vote labour back in in 2015 with basically the same people who were in government for them last time, after the horrendous way they governed and the mess they left then labour will always win the next election after they lose. Its madness and not a good reflection of the intelligence of the British people, but thats just the way it is.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    There is a widespread feeling that the economy is being run in the interests of a small minority.

    I'm not sure that's quite it. It's more that people perceive there's a great deal of money sloshing around and none seems to be coming their way.

    Labour have correctly identified how people are feeling, but there's a problem in that. They have also defined for their opponents what they need to do to win.

    If the ordinary joe and Josephine are starting to feel more prosperous by May 2015, Labour have nowhere to go.

  • currystar said:


    The tories will just have to deal with the fact that their role now is to clear up the mess left by Labour, do that very well and then lose the election. It will be an ongoing cycle. If people are prepared to vote labour back in in 2015 with basically the same people who were in government for them last time, after the horrendous way they governed and the mess they left then labour will always win the next election after they lose. Its madness and not a good reflection of the intelligence of the British people, but thats just the way it is.

    Hmm, sad but probably true, ISTM. I wonder what the Conservatives (noting that the current govt is a coalition, of course!) can do to stop this cycle. For example, could they do more to avoid the charge of destroying public services (never mind how true the charge is) while still genuinely clearing up the mess left by the previous Labour government?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Anecdotal I know but hardly an example of falling living standards.

    Hampshire is not typical and will vote tory as usual. Are the restaurants of Bootle, and Gateshead full to bursting? Or the restaurants of key marginal constituencies in the midlands and North west? that is what it will take to win.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485

    OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd blame incompetence over conspiracy. Robots.txt *can* be hard to manage, especially with poorly structured websites.

    I've seen this before when companies move CMS with different defaults, or go about a site reorganisation.

    A very poor blog entry by CW standards.
  • Preparing for GE2015?

    The Tory party reported to have erased from their site all speeches made from 2000-2010

    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I suspect that it is a bit of both.

    By its very nature the black economy is hard to study. It is in everyones interest that the incentive to do off record cash jobs is reduced.

    No doubt the economy is improving in the midlands. The general mood is more positive, how much it will move voters is less certain. What I do notice is that a lot of thd new jobs and businesses are on the fringes of cities or in the smaller towns. Marginal constituencies in the midlands are where the election will be won or lost.
    Lennon said:

    DavidL said:

    I wonder whether at least part of the increase in employment is employment in the black economy becoming legitimate.

    After all increased tax allowances and the tightening of benefit scrutiny has reduced the trap where it is only worth working if the work is hidden. The cost of honesty has become lower.

    Good point, @foxinsoxuk, and 'The cost of honesty has become lower' is a great phrase! Catchy and also clear in meaning. Any ideas how the veracity of your statement could be established? I mean, it makes sense to me, but IMO some hard stats would be needed to justify it as a claim.
    I also liked the phrase but wondered if it was right. My understanding is that most of those working in the black economy were doing so to claim benefits not evade tax. May be a bit of both of course and the government has been a great deal more rigorous in shaking out those who were claiming benefits but actually working.
    You are suggesting that it is more 'the cost of dishonesty has risen'?

  • OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd blame incompetence over conspiracy. Robots.txt *can* be hard to manage, especially with poorly structured websites.

    I've seen this before when companies move CMS with different defaults, or go about a site reorganisation.

    A very poor blog entry by CW standards.
    Hard to manage as in "Doh, I seem to have somehow accidentally created a text file blacklisting everything up to May, 2010"? The Bush White House once had a similar management problem affecting anything they'd said about Iraq before the war.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    currystar said:



    Even if the economy is still tanking along in 2015 I still think Labour will win the election. Unfortunately a large majority of people in this country have a misguided view, (despite all the stacks of evidence when labour are in power), that labour will give them lots of free things ,they wont have to work hard and life will be better. A bit like the French when they voted for Hollande. Its just the way it is.

    In regard to living standards not improving, I just dont buy that, in Hampshire where I live. Restaurants are jammed packed, shops are full. i tried to book our works Christmas Party yesterday and all the local hotels/venues which are charging £50 per head are all booked up throughout December.

    Anecdotal I know but hardly an example of falling living standards.

    The tories will just have to deal with the fact that their role now is to clear up the mess left by Labour, do that very well and then lose the election. It will be an ongoing cycle. If people are prepared to vote labour back in in 2015 with basically the same people who were in government for them last time, after the horrendous way they governed and the mess they left then labour will always win the next election after they lose. Its madness and not a good reflection of the intelligence of the British people, but thats just the way it is.

    1)

    "Unfortunately a large majority of people in this country have a misguided view, (despite all the stacks of evidence when labour are in power), that labour will give them lots of free things ,they wont have to work hard and life will be better."

    There was a credit boom 1998-2008.

    2)

    "In regard to living standards not improving, I just dont buy that, in Hampshire where I live..."

    Maybe you're right. On the other hand if 30% are feeling better off partly because the 70% serving them their din-dins are worse off then it's not likely to boost the Tories in the polls - especially if half the people noshing in those restaurants are the public-sector rich who are going to be voting Lab/Lib.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    The Governor's introductory comments on the inflation report: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/inflationreport/2013/irspnote131113.pdf

    Worth a read. His appointment is looking like another sharp move by Osborne.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485

    Preparing for GE2015?

    The Tory party reported to have erased from their site all speeches made from 2000-2010

    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd like to know what Labour are hiding behind pages/m and pages/o ;-)
    Hang on, I've just checked, and I think Labour's robots.txt has changed in the last few minutes...

    The Lib Dems don't appear to have one.

    PB, on the other hand, has a fully-crawlable site.

    If it is a deliberate ploy to remove things from Internet Archives, then it's a) crap, and b) tempting the Streisand Effect.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd blame incompetence over conspiracy. Robots.txt *can* be hard to manage, especially with poorly structured websites.

    I've seen this before when companies move CMS with different defaults, or go about a site reorganisation.

    A very poor blog entry by CW standards.
    Hard to manage as in "Doh, I seem to have somehow accidentally created a text file blacklisting everything up to May, 2010"? The Bush White House once had a similar management problem affecting anything they'd said about Iraq before the war.
    The erasure had the effect of hiding Conservative speeches in a secretive corner of the internet like those that shelter the military, secret services, gangsters and paedophiles.

    That's a quite unnecessary phrase. Reflects badly on the author, in my view. It may be true, but it's a limited choice and one that is designed to be negative.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    tim said:

    OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    Ha.
    So does it erase fake Dave, fake fake Dave and fake fake fake Dave, or does the most recent version remain?

    Those speeches using a dead child as a symbol of a Broken Britian for instance, if they are Pre 2010 are they wiped and we are left with a void today where no David Cameron speech using Hamzat Khans corpse as a symbol of a Broken Britiain will ever exist?
    Tim I know it is a difficult day for Labour supporters (despite the polls) but you are really losing the place.

    Apart from anything else I think you will find that the majority of the population does not live on the internet and are not entirely dependent on it for their memories or thoughts. Seriously, it is true.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    The policy named "Building the Big Society" will include plans for a "new neighbourhood army" of 5,000 community organisers

    What happened to that ?
  • BBC News at the moment:

    EU ruling entitles 120,000 people living abroad to UK Winter Fuel Payments
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    currystar said:


    The tories will just have to deal with the fact that their role now is to clear up the mess left by Labour, do that very well and then lose the election. It will be an ongoing cycle. If people are prepared to vote labour back in in 2015 with basically the same people who were in government for them last time, after the horrendous way they governed and the mess they left then labour will always win the next election after they lose. Its madness and not a good reflection of the intelligence of the British people, but thats just the way it is.

    Hmm, sad but probably true, ISTM. I wonder what the Conservatives (noting that the current govt is a coalition, of course!) can do to stop this cycle. For example, could they do more to avoid the charge of destroying public services (never mind how true the charge is) while still genuinely clearing up the mess left by the previous Labour government?
    I really dont think they can do anything. Think back a year, all the left lot on this site were predicting a tale of woe for the UK and its economy all backed up by the the predictions of messiah milliband and super balls. BenM even said that Osborne was the worst chancellor in the history of this country. How many of them thought that by the 13/11/13 the economy would be doing this well. not one. I think it is a remarkable achievement by this Government especially taking into account the economic situation with our nearest trading partners. Despite this the tories will get no credit, its mad but thats the way it is. i think people think if there is more money about lets get Labour in and they might give me some for nothing.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    @PhilipH

    "So in your world devious dishonesty is acceptable from police"

    No but as with Jessop you are confusing two issues. One was the reason for Mitchell's resignation/sacking and the other is the behaviour of the police. I don't believe in a well ordered Downing St one would have led to the other.

    The facts as we know them relatively uncontested by anyone; Mitchell was told he couldn't take his bike out of a particular entrance on Downing St so he swore at the police. The story was picked up by the press and after a 'discussion' with the PM he 'resigned'.

    That the police chose to give the story legs and POSSIBLY add the word 'pleb' speaks badly of the officers involved but only in a very dysfunctional Downing St could this have been a reason for Cameron to 'accept' his resignation.

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    tim said:

    Dave's speeches promising to fix Broken Britain with the Big Society appear to remain in part

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8596877.stm

    I wonder how many speeches from the 2 fake ed's have being erased,especially milibands speeches on energy.

    Loving how mike sucks up to tim = lol.

  • Charles said:

    OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd blame incompetence over conspiracy. Robots.txt *can* be hard to manage, especially with poorly structured websites.

    I've seen this before when companies move CMS with different defaults, or go about a site reorganisation.

    A very poor blog entry by CW standards.
    Hard to manage as in "Doh, I seem to have somehow accidentally created a text file blacklisting everything up to May, 2010"? The Bush White House once had a similar management problem affecting anything they'd said about Iraq before the war.
    The erasure had the effect of hiding Conservative speeches in a secretive corner of the internet like those that shelter the military, secret services, gangsters and paedophiles.

    That's a quite unnecessary phrase. Reflects badly on the author, in my view. It may be true, but it's a limited choice and one that is designed to be negative.

    I agree, there should be a political version of Godwin's Law where you automatically lose the argument if you mention pedophiles. But their description of the effect of the robots.txt is correct, and we can confirm their reporting about the content ourselves.

    (Check it quick before it changes - I'm not sure if you can put your robots.txt file in your robots.txt file...)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485
    Roger said:

    @PhilipH

    "So in your world devious dishonesty is acceptable from police"

    No but as with Jessop you are confusing two issues. One was the reason for Mitchell's resignation/sacking and the other is the behaviour of the police. I don't believe in a well ordered Downing St one would have led to the other.

    The facts as we know them relatively uncontested by anyone; Mitchell was told he couldn't take his bike out of a particular entrance on Downing St so he swore at the police. The story was picked up by the press and after a 'discussion' with the PM he 'resigned'.

    That the police chose to give the story legs and POSSIBLY add the word 'pleb' speaks badly of the officers involved but only in a very dysfunctional Downing St could this have been a reason for Cameron to 'accept' his resignation.

    I'm not confusing two issues. You are desperately trying to make a media witch-hunt - one that was ably assisted by the police and Labour - not seem like a witch-hunt.

    Mitchell admits he swore under his breath. He apologised to the officer, who accepted that apology. Are you saying he should have been lost his job over that?

    And you still cannot tell the difference between a resignation and sacking ...
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    taffys said:

    Anecdotal I know but hardly an example of falling living standards.

    Hampshire is not typical and will vote tory as usual. Are the restaurants of Bootle, and Gateshead full to bursting? Or the restaurants of key marginal constituencies in the midlands and North west? that is what it will take to win.

    I took my second trip this year to Anfield at the weekend, the area around Anfield remains a disgrace to the club and the city.However after the game me and the wife had a night out in the docks area. Now that did not feel like a country where living standards are falling. I also had great difficulty booking a hotel as they were all booked up in the end I had to pay £150 for a double room for one night. It was worth it though, a great night out was had!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    @PhilipH

    "So in your world devious dishonesty is acceptable from police"

    No but as with Jessop you are confusing two issues. One was the reason for Mitchell's resignation/sacking and the other is the behaviour of the police. I don't believe in a well ordered Downing St one would have led to the other.

    The facts as we know them relatively uncontested by anyone; Mitchell was told he couldn't take his bike out of a particular entrance on Downing St so he swore at the police. The story was picked up by the press and after a 'discussion' with the PM he 'resigned'.

    That the police chose to give the story legs and POSSIBLY add the word 'pleb' speaks badly of the officers involved but only in a very dysfunctional Downing St could this have been a reason for Cameron to 'accept' his resignation.

    You're ignoring that fact that Cameron stood behind Mitchell for a month and it was only when the political pressure / media witchhunt - stoked up deliberately by the Police Federation - got too much that he had to let him go.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    @PhilipH

    "So in your world devious dishonesty is acceptable from police"

    No but as with Jessop you are confusing two issues. One was the reason for Mitchell's resignation/sacking and the other is the behaviour of the police. I don't believe in a well ordered Downing St one would have led to the other.

    The facts as we know them relatively uncontested by anyone; Mitchell was told he couldn't take his bike out of a particular entrance on Downing St so he swore at the police. The story was picked up by the press and after a 'discussion' with the PM he 'resigned'.

    That the police chose to give the story legs and POSSIBLY add the word 'pleb' speaks badly of the officers involved but only in a very dysfunctional Downing St could this have been a reason for Cameron to 'accept' his resignation.

    Your first post on this today contained this line: "Whether F*** C*** rather than 'pleb' makes it less likely Cameron would have fired him is something only Cameron can answer."

    F*** C***?!?

    Were you implying that he used the "C word"?

    I don't think even the police stooped that low. Makes "the facts as we know them" an interesting concept...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Preparing for GE2015?

    The Tory party reported to have erased from their site all speeches made from 2000-2010

    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html


    Seems sensible - why help your enemies.

    Their site their rules.


  • tim said:

    Charles said:

    OT Public service memory hole announcement: If you have any recollection of anything the Conservatives may have said before May, 2010, please erase it:

    http://www.conservatives.com/robots.txt

    Explanation here:
    http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/11/conservatives-erase-internet-h.html

    I'd blame incompetence over conspiracy. Robots.txt *can* be hard to manage, especially with poorly structured websites.

    I've seen this before when companies move CMS with different defaults, or go about a site reorganisation.

    A very poor blog entry by CW standards.
    Hard to manage as in "Doh, I seem to have somehow accidentally created a text file blacklisting everything up to May, 2010"? The Bush White House once had a similar management problem affecting anything they'd said about Iraq before the war.
    The erasure had the effect of hiding Conservative speeches in a secretive corner of the internet like those that shelter the military, secret services, gangsters and paedophiles.

    That's a quite unnecessary phrase. Reflects badly on the author, in my view. It may be true, but it's a limited choice and one that is designed to be negative.

    I agree, there should be a political version of Godwin's Law where you automatically lose the argument if you mention pedophiles. But their description of the effect of the robots.txt is correct, and we can confirm their reporting about the content ourselves.

    (Check it quick before it changes - I'm not sure if you can put your robots.txt file in your robots.txt file...)
    JamesLyons ‏@MirrorJames
    Cchq; "These changes allow people to quickly and easily access the most important information we provide" #cobblers
    They need @JosiasJessop on staff, his line was much better.
This discussion has been closed.